View Full Version : Why the obsession with making them light?
I got into this conversation with a fellow shooter a couple weeks ago, who was a career marine, and his opinion now that he is out, he could care less what the rifle weighs.
I can understand if you are required to hump the rifle all day every day along with a shitload of other gear where you would want to cut every ounce possible, but for general civilian use? Even LEO?
The most that I could see having to lug the rifle would be either hunting or a training class.
My 16" comes in at just over 8# and my Mk12 at 10.5#. Ive taken classes with both, and at the end of the day the weight is not impacting my performance, nor am I fatigued from the repetition in going from hanging, to ready, to fire. I doubt that 2-3# more is going to make that much of a difference in a day's worth of hiking on a hunting trip.
Even in my competition archery days, it was the same thing, people getting light bows and low draw weights (we were just punching paper after all). I could still shoot a perfect match with my equipment, and a pull weight 30# above everyone else. I found myself more stable with the weight than shooting a light bow and low draw weight.
It would seem that the super light goal would have negative impact on weapon control (recoil).
So what's the fuss?
My rifle is somehow fat and is around 9 pounds with light, comp M3, 12" LITE hanguards, and is 16". People have lighter rifles, and say mine is too heavy, one person even said the rail is stupid and I am in idiot for having that "extra weight." Then again, he does not own my rifle, nor does he know why I wanted a rail...
I do not know why people think 9 or 10 pound rifles are such a big deal. When I take it to the mountains where we camp and shoot. I am holding it all day shooting, never once did I say "boy do I wish I got that magpul MOE handguards to save that 8oz's"
I can see if you are carry a 40 pound backpack, that you want the least amount of weight as possible. I, still, do not think 9-10 pounds is all that bad, evening while jogging up and down this ditch to get to my targets.
Maybe if you jump over haystacks it is better for the rifle to be lighter?
I don't mind a little extra weight if it serves a purpose, but in my experience a lighter carbine is easier to handle.
A gun being extremely front heavy I find to be extremely annoying - when it's balanced I don't notice how heavy a gun is unless it really starts to climb up there in weight. On hunting trips though I REALLY care about how much my gun weighs as when you are packing 100+ pounds of meat on your back + your camp you really don't want anything to weigh any more than is absolutely necessary.
Cesiumsponge
12-08-12, 22:16
Everyone has a different tolerance/comfort zone so a carbine or rifle that is 10lbs might not be a big deal to some people and a big deal for others. Balance seems to play a role in how it feels. I personally like my sub 7lb carbine which handles like a feather with a lightweight 14.5" barrel. With a can, I can feel the additional mass but it doesn't slow me down and feels more like a 6940. It's notably more nimble than my Mk12 but I am not fatigued by the Mk12 even with the Ops can. On the flip side, I find my Sako TRG-22 pleasantly heavy and very well-balaced at 15lbs but many people to balk at a bolt-action rifle that heavy.
I think my 14.5 middy weights something like 9.6lbs unloaded. BCM EAG model with a T-1, SOPMOD, and VCAS. Doesn't bother me if it means I have to do one extra arm curl rep.
I think you'll agree that using words like "obsession" and "fuss" could be an indicator of personal bias. I didn't realize anyone was on a weight shaving crusade/jihad.
None of my rifles are featherweight, but neither are they weighted down with anything i don't need. I have no problem with a 24 pound machine gun, but I don't see the need for a 10 pound AR.
Things should weigh what they need to weigh to perform the function for which they were designed. Why carry more than you need to?
Because I'm getting old. Losing muscle mass. I want them light for those 4hr hunts, and 1 min stages in 3 gun.
It's all personal preference. If you can wield around a rifle that weighs a ton good for you. I like my rifles to be no more than 8# at the most. Really the important thing for me is balance.
Even in hunting knowing that you will be lugging meat, along with all your gear, I'd have to say you made that bed. You have no idea what your game is going to weigh after field dressing. You don't say to yourself, "Should have shot something smaller".
Are you looking to cut 2-3# in rifle weight, or ditch the camp stool or any number of other camping comforts (presuming it's more than a day trip). Heck - you filled your tag, why not ditch the survival food you packed in as a just in case.
I can see cutting weight for balance (or in some cases adding weight).
I don't mind a little extra weight if it serves a purpose, but in my experience a lighter carbine is easier to handle.
You are touching on it here.
I think it mostly depends on how you use your rifle. Back in the day I didn't mind at all that my M1 weighed 10+ lbs as I mostly shot it from the bench at a range.
The last several years I run a Colt M4, it serves a very different purpose than my previous range guns. It's main additions are an Aimpoint M4s and a Surefire along with some other minor additions. I can't even estimate how many times I've had to do a search at night to confront some unknown critters, both 2 and 4 legged. When having it shouldered for extended periods in a search mode is when it really shows it's weight. I've tried to trim it down some but there is only so much I take off of it and still keep it effective in it's role.
Toyoland66
12-08-12, 22:36
On hunting trips though I REALLY care about how much my gun weighs as when you are packing 100+ pounds of meat on your back + your camp you really don't want anything to weigh any more than is absolutely necessary.
This I agree with 100%, come elk hunting with us in Colorado, where whatever you shoot comes out on your back and a few extra pounds of rifle becomes something you don't want to carry around.
Even in hunting knowing that you will be lugging meat, along with all your gear, I'd have to say you made that bed. You have no idea what your game is going to weigh after field dressing. You don't say to yourself, "Should have shot something smaller".
Are you looking to cut 2-3# in rifle weight, or ditch the camp stool or any number of other camping comforts (presuming it's more than a day trip). Heck - you filled your tag, why not ditch the survival food you packed in as a just in case.
I can see cutting weight for balance (or in some cases adding weight).
I may be misunderstanding what you wrote, but I've never taken a camp stool out with me, I go bare essentials but when you are bringing back a moose you don't want to have anything, rifle included weigh more than it has to in order to do its job.
I think you'll agree that using words like "obsession" and "fuss" could be an indicator of personal bias. I didn't realize anyone was on a weight shaving crusade/jihad.
It's just something that I have noticed over the last year in my reading. Some people are obsessed, to the point of picking components solely on weight over function. I'm still a newb, and make my choices on function and quality. I weighed mine to see where they are by comparison, but have made zero changes to either because of what the scale read.
Three, 2 day classes, and I ran what I brought. The only thing that I have changed is where I mount my sling (and I still damn near choke myself in strong to support side transitions with my BFG - padded VCAS).
At some point I'll dig deeper in the the balance theory, and how to judge what my needs are for balance.
It's not about weight in and of itself. It's about size and weight efficiency. I want the rifle to have no more weight and no more size than is necessary for the tasks I need to perform.
Even in hunting knowing that you will be lugging meat, along with all your gear, I'd have to say you made that bed. You have no idea what your game is going to weigh after field dressing. You don't say to yourself, "Should have shot something smaller"....
You're missing the point--but perhaps this will help:
Why are you field dressing it where you shot it? Why not just carry the whole animal back to camp and dress it there?
I will admit that I would get a 10", that being the max I need, which would shave a few ounces- compared to my 12". Then, I want to add a IR laser for night time shooting and training. Then with that I would put an Aimpoint T-1, and the comp M3 would go on another rifle. The rifle I intend to be NV ready will probably be looked at to drop ounces to make up for the laser.
For me all I want on my rifle is essentials. If I plan to train with my AR to be my defensive weapon, I must be able to know how, and have equipment to fight in night and day. I also do not like to use grips or rail covers on my rifle so that saves weight.
For my purpose the rifle should be around 9.5 pounds. With: Red dot sight, iron sights, sling, light, laser, and extra stuff in pistol grip. That is everything beside the handguards that will be added to my rifle. The weight I will live with. That set up though will hopefully be on a 14.5" Gov't profile mid length.
I may be misunderstanding what you wrote, but I've never taken a camp stool out with me, I go bare essentials but when you are bringing back a moose you don't want to have anything, rifle included weigh more than it has to in order to do its job.
No misunderstanding. There are those that are smart in what they pack for camping/hunting, and there are the not so smart - I.E. survival equip over a cot or other should haves over wants.
You're missing the point--but perhaps this will help:
Why are you field dressing it where you shot it? Why not just carry the whole animal back to camp and dress it there?
I'm a little slow tonight. In transition to graveyard shift (2 hours past my normal bedtime) so you're going to have to dumb that down a little for me - in other words, you lost me on that one.
No misunderstanding. There are those that are smart in what they pack for camping/hunting, and there are the not so smart - I.E. survival equip over a cot or other should haves over wants.
Haven't really seen to many people with survival gear and stuff among serious hunters, at least not where I've been. Never taken a cot either =P
Five_Point_Five_Six
12-08-12, 23:22
You're missing the point--but perhaps this will help:
Why are you field dressing it where you shot it? Why not just carry the whole animal back to camp and dress it there?
Huh? You ever shot an animal? They weigh much less after field dressing.
Born and raised in the Colorado mountains, I don't take much in the line of emergency equip with me either - though there are things that I should now that I am older and don't bounce as well as I used to.
City dwellers who's only exposure to nature is their weekend deer camp are another story.
Back on topic - is a person really gaining anything by going light in an AR? Is there a tangible measure in performance? Gaining 2 tenths of a second may matter to a gamer, but is that the only thing they are gaining?
Back on topic - is a person really gaining anything by going light in an AR? Is there a tangible measure in performance? Gaining 2 tenths of a second may matter to a gamer, but is that the only thing they are gaining?
I'll take that 2 tenths of a second in a game and/or a gun fight.
In the end its what makes you better and quicker. Only you can figure that out.
The 2 tenths won't matter if you miss.
Born and raised in the Colorado mountains, I don't take much in the line of emergency equip with me either - though there are things that I should now that I am older and don't bounce as well as I used to.
City dwellers who's only exposure to nature is their weekend deer camp are another story.
Back on topic - is a person really gaining anything by going light in an AR? Is there a tangible measure in performance? Gaining 2 tenths of a second may matter to a gamer, but is that the only thing they are gaining?
Look at any troop in Iraq, at least in video's I have seen, and stories friends have told me, I have NEVER been there, but you see them with lasers, sometimes lights, mounted m203, ACOG, grips, etc. They seem to do plenty fine with that extra weight.
Mission dictates equipment.
Mission dictates equipment.
Yes! But this thread has earned this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q362H-xg0ZA
:D:haha:
The lightest possible urge with some must be taken with a grain of salt. If one TRULY wanted an extremely feathery felt gun he'd hypothetically be running a.pencil barreled 14.5"/16" , carbine or midlength tube, no optic, a 20 round mag, no light or a light so small you may as well tape a bic to the end of the gun. You wouldn't run an optic, no vert grip/hand stop.....and on and on.
Make the rifle as light as you want but don't sacrifice anything that makes you run it more efficiently.
My rifle is not light by any means and picking up a plain AR honestly does feel great in my hands. But I have whats on it b/c I know for my specific needs the weight (via my specific add ons and parts) overall more than makes up for the gun just feeling good in my hands.
-Jax
Huh? You ever shot an animal? They weigh much less after field dressing.
My point exactly. Why carry weight you don't need?
The lightest possible urge with some must be taken with a grain of salt. If one TRULY wanted an extremely feathery felt gun he'd hypothetically be running a.pencil barreled 14.5"/16" , carbine or midlength tube, no optic, a 20 round mag, no light or a light so small you may as well tape a bic to the end of the gun. You wouldn't run an optic, no vert grip/hand stop.....and on and on.
Make the rifle as light as you want but don't sacrifice anything that makes you run it more efficiently.
My rifle is not light by any means and picking up a plain AR honestly does feel great in my hands. But I have whats on it b/c I know for my specific needs the weight (via my specific add ons and parts) overall more than makes up for the gun just feeling good in my hands.
-Jax
This. I have the option of making my rifle, an object that I must balance and aim using my arms, lighter without sacrificing much performance. Why not?
I don't take making a rifle light to an extreme. In fact I am allowed very little leeway in how my duty rifle is set up. But as a LEO you can easily find yourself posted on a perimeter or outside a barricaded subject for hours. Even the lightest AR will seem heavy.
Havent read the other posts other than the OP yet...
I had a 16" carbine that weighed 10lbs loaded. A few months ago I responded to an armed robbery. Had to walk 2 city blocks with my rifle shouldered, scanning for the perps, then clear a house. I compete in weightlifting competitions, yet my arms were fatigued at the end of this call. I could not operate this gun effectively with 1 arm if I needed to (fresh).
I ditched this gun for a DD Mk18 and couldnt be happier with the weight loss. Feels good to be able to shoot my carbine like a pistol if needed.
JoeSixPack
12-09-12, 07:28
When you see the bad guy and the bad guy sees you, odds are your barrels will not be pointing at each other. The time it takes to put your barrel on target will determine who wins and who dies. Translation, the guy with the heavy barrel AR with a full length rail loaded with tacti-cool accessories will be ganked by the bad guy with a Wallmart AR with factory handguards:)
I can see cutting weight for balance (or in some cases adding weight).
That's pretty much the case when we built my wife's rifle. After shooting all of mine for a while, she asked 'Can we make the front end lighter for mine? It feels like it wants to point down too easily.' LW bbl, Rainier Evo rail, and ACS-L stock made the balance 'just right.' It definitely wasn't about keeping it 'light,' since I explained to her 1-4X was going to more than eat up whatever few ounces she lost with the light bbl/light FF. She is happy as can be with her set-up, and is very comfortable shooting it.
If one removes the "obsessive",
because most people don't seem to be obsessing over it,
....then ask a slighty different way,
Why not make it lighter if it is purpose driven?
Why not make it heavier if it is purpose driven?
Since we have had the Hbar for along time now,
many have been going the other direction.
JoeSixPack
12-09-12, 08:11
You can really have your cake and eat it too. A good 7" rail will give you the benefits of free floating and a QD socket.
When you consider you can eliminate the Delta ring, delta ring spring, and c-clip and the heavy side swivel sling mount that comes on a LE6920 with a good 7" rail, you really add little if any weight over the factory plastic handguards. Hard to beat the Samson Star-C M4 / M203 rail reviewed here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=116029
For those who say they can't live with a 7" rail because there's no room on it for mounting a flashlight, just hang the flash light off a Bayonet lug mount. A flashlight on a bayonet lug mount will be centered instead of on one side so it won't mess with your rifles balance and it will be under the barrel so it's not as likely to get snagged on door frames, etc.
To make my ~ 8.5 lb. rifle more manageable, I switched from 12 oz. curls (bottles, not cans) to 24 oz. curls, using my left arm mostly, since I'm right-handed.
I don't look at it as striving for lightweight. I take a minimalist approach now when it comes to my carbine. Less stuff (lights, lasers, magnifiers, or VFG )= less to be tangled on or snagged on. Lightweight is a consequence of my streamline setup. I like it this way, and the weapon is very controllable, comfortable, and quick.
How many people complain that their rifle is too light?
When you see the bad guy and the bad guy sees you, odds are your barrels will not be pointing at each other. The time it takes to put your barrel on target will determine who wins and who dies. Translation, the guy with the heavy barrel AR with a full length rail loaded with tacti-cool accessories will be ganked by the bad guy with a Wallmart AR with factory handguards:)
This is a myopic view of things.
Heck what if my life boils down to someone coming at me with a knife and it boils down to how fast I can perform a reload. Or for some reason that inserted mag didnt want me to live. My heavier rifle with a RediMag is going to be way quicker than reaching for a mag from a belt or pocket. Chances are I won't even have another mag on me. In this case light does not make right.
The point is that you can't predict the scenario but you can take classes. Study, listen and then make the best decision on gear.
-Jax
Not sure who takes their training rifle to go hunt elk. I never have. I have a 14.5 with ibus and a reddot with a loaded mag and sling that weighs 8.5 and I wasn't trying too hard to keep it light. It should get lighter when I go to a micro dot. I think balance is more important than weight. If all the weight is in the front it will seem heavier and it obviously will be slower.
You can really have your cake and eat it too. A good 7" rail will give you the benefits of free floating and a QD socket.
When you consider you can eliminate the Delta ring, delta ring spring, and c-clip and the heavy side swivel sling mount that comes on a LE6920 with a good 7" rail, you really add little if any weight over the factory plastic handguards. Hard to beat the Samson Star-C M4 / M203 rail reviewed here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=116029
For those who say they can't live with a 7" rail because there's no room on it for mounting a flashlight, just hang the flash light off a Bayonet lug mount. A flashlight on a bayonet lug mount will be centered instead of on one side so it won't mess with your rifles balance and it will be under the barrel so it's not as likely to get snagged on door frames, etc.
Not sure what to think about this? I know guys that it wouldn't matter if they had a "Walmart" AR, Dicks AR or your AR that would drop just about any BG before the BG would even get his barrel up. The last man standing will be the man who has better skills and training. Period. The post I was trying to quote is this one down here. \/
When you see the bad guy and the bad guy sees you, odds are your barrels will not be pointing at each other. The time it takes to put your barrel on target will determine who wins and who dies. Translation, the guy with the heavy barrel AR with a full length rail loaded with tacti-cool accessories will be ganked by the bad guy with a Wallmart AR with factory handguards:)
Sorry, this is the the post I was trying to quote.
Make the rifle as light as you want but don't sacrifice anything that makes you run it more efficiently.
Everything I need, nothing I don't. This setup works well for me at work and play.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Colt%20AR6720/6e2aed76.jpg
theblackknight
12-09-12, 12:21
Why wouldnt you want a light rifle? It goes faster to the target and faster to the next. Who really needs a a barrel profile made to handle a lmg role?!
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Everything I need, nothing I don't. This setup works well for me at work and play.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Colt%20AR6720/6e2aed76.jpg
But isn't that a Bushmaster? :haha: :D
Because Americans are fat, weak, and lazy :big_boss:
From my perspective, the folks going for the really light setups are doing it as more of a "proof of concept". I see nothing wrong with this, so long as the gun works.
As more users look for balance and efficiency, unnecessary weight gets stripped off, and designs become more streamlined as they become less complicated.
Yeah, the guns may be getting lighter, but for the most part, I see it as a side effect of building simpler, better balanced set-ups. If you can control the recoil and track targets with a lighter gun, why go heavier than you need to?
ForTehNguyen
12-09-12, 12:53
same reason people want to make light cars
But isn't that a Bushmaster? :haha: :D
Ouch. That cuts deep, 6720 times. :D
Why wouldnt you want a light rifle? It goes faster to the target and faster to the next. .....
I guess I will go against the grain a bit.
Why would I want a light?
Intended purpose of my AR's - HD and PD, range toy, and amateur competition (OK and the extremely slim chance of Red Dawn, anarchy, SHTF, zombies, ect...):
The chances of me engaging some one that initiated a fire fight or was close enough to threaten me at my home with a deadly weapon at night and was outside of my lights that I have around my house is all but -0-. More than likely would be handled by one of my many handguns.
PD away from my house would 99% of the time be handled by a concealed carry weapon handgun or the handgun stashed in my car. At that point a hand held light would be used is needed.
Use of deadly force is only tolerated in my state if it is clearly SD. Firing into the night even with a great weapons light
would be very difficult to defend as SD.
I just don't see packing a light around on my AR all the time for what chance of it really being an asset?
The use of a light mounted on a rifle or hand held light with a pistol is very dangerous. Talk about flash signature.
Intended purpose for LEO's Military and similar:
Totally different scenario, larger chance for offensive engagement (house clearing at night and such) that a civilian should not be involved in under realistic circumstance. In their case I would say a high quality light and mount would be a must have.
A light weight properly set up AR should be an asset for most 200m and less when used for offense/defense, as intended.
Going light weight is nothing to get obsessive over, just logical when it helps.
Many talk about making their ARs as light as practical, but I see very few obsessing about it. In reality, there are very few bolt on options for building lightweight ARs. Weight savings can be had by choosing lightweight handguards, stock & barrel and keeping accessories to a minimum. Realistically, that's about it.
Here is a photo of my current carbine along with my precision AR
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/DSC_0034.jpg
The precision AR is heavier than the carbine. Why? Heavier profile barrel, heavier stock, heavier optic. Change those three items and their weights would be comparable.
The only way to lighten the carbine further with bolt on parts would be to change to a pencil profile barrel, cut the FSB and remove the back up sight. All the other components, receivers, bolts, small parts, extension etc., are all standardized in weight and dimension
However, here is an AR that takes lightening to a new level. This is as close to obsessing on weight as I've seen. Really, it's a concept build not an obsession, but it does show in a graphic way, what must be done to see any real weight savings in an AR
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=14160&d=1353176696
To really save weight requires machine work.
The real question isn't why folks are shedding weight from their rifles, but why rifles were allowed to grow heavy in the first place. I've been shooting and lugging firearms around for many years. As a small boy, hunting with my father, I learned early about weight in the field. Heavy rifles didn't do anything a light rifle couldn't except tire out your arms and have you wishing you were back in camp warming your sore feet by the campfire that much sooner.
Not that I'm completely against heavier rifles- I have-and will- happily hiked many miles with an M1 Garand or M14 or 20" Colt HBar, chasing jackrabbits across sage dotted the Mojave Desert. But I came home less worn when I made that same hike with a 10/22 or lightweight centerfire bolt action.
Those hikes taught me plenty and quickly too. My father gave me a WWII web belt festooned with canteen, ammo pouches and an authentic Garand bayonet with sheath. I was proud as a boy could be! It wasn't too long before that "kit" was reduced to ammo shoved in my pockets, a canteen and a small pocket knife
But isn't that a Bushmaster? :haha: :D
Some people just aren't productive.
I have used a timer to test the hypothesis that a lightweight barrel with a tube and light stock would be faster than a standard weight barrel with a rail and heavy stock. For me, at least, there was no difference. Obviously, you might find a difference if you made the weight variation extreme enough.
Why wouldnt you want a light rifle? It goes faster to the target and faster to the next. Who really needs a a barrel profile made to handle a lmg role?!
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Bcause it's easier to put a rifle on a diet than the wife...
I guess I will go against the grain a bit.
Why would I want a light?
Intended purpose of my AR's - HD and PD, range toy, and amateur competition (OK and the extremely slim chance of Red Dawn, anarchy, SHTF, zombies, ect...):
The chances of me engaging some one that initiated a fire fight or was close enough to threaten me at my home with a deadly weapon at night and was outside of my lights that I have around my house is all but -0-. More than likely would be handled by one of my many handguns.
PD away from my house would 99% of the time be handled by a concealed carry weapon handgun or the handgun stashed in my car. At that point a hand held light would be used is needed.
Use of deadly force is only tolerated in my state if it is clearly SD. Firing into the night even with a great weapons light
would be very difficult to defend as SD.
I just don't see packing a light around on my AR all the time for what chance of it really being an asset?
The use of a light mounted on a rifle or hand held light with a pistol is very dangerous. Talk about flash signature.
Intended purpose for LEO's Military and similar:
Totally different scenario, larger chance for offensive engagement (house clearing at night and such) that a civilian should not be involved in under realistic circumstance. In their case I would say a high quality light and mount would be a must have.
A light weight properly set up AR should be an asset for most 200m and less when used for offense/defense, as intended.
Going light weight is nothing to get obsessive over, just logical when it helps.
Lights come in handy 24/7. I am willing to accept the additional weight of a light in the case that I may need it versus not need it.
Intended purpose of my AR's - HD and PD, range toy, and amateur competition (OK and the extremely slim chance of Red Dawn, anarchy, SHTF, zombies, ect...):
The chances of me engaging some one that initiated a fire fight or was close enough to threaten me at my home with a deadly weapon at night and was outside of my lights that I have around my house is all but -0-. More than likely would be handled by one of my many handguns.
PD away from my house would 99% of the time be handled by a concealed carry weapon handgun or the handgun stashed in my car. At that point a hand held light would be used is needed.
Use of deadly force is only tolerated in my state if it is clearly SD. Firing into the night even with a great weapons light
would be very difficult to defend as SD.
I just don't see packing a light around on my AR all the time for what chance of it really being an asset?
The use of a light mounted on a rifle or hand held light with a pistol is very dangerous. Talk about flash signature.
Intended purpose for LEO's Military and similar:
Totally different scenario, larger chance for offensive engagement (house clearing at night and such) that a civilian should not be involved in under realistic circumstance. In their case I would say a high quality light and mount would be a must have.
A light weight properly set up AR should be an asset for most 200m and less when used for offense/defense, as intended.
Going light weight is nothing to get obsessive over, just logical when it helps.
You're way over thinking it.
Hard to justify SD if using a light? What about the scenario when you shoot someone/something because you didn't have a light to accurately identify? Or identify what was in there hands? Cell phone or gun?
The weight of a 4oz surefire x300 ultra is negligible and, IMO, is worth its weight in gold.
Everything I need, nothing I don't. This setup works well for me at work and play.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Colt%20AR6720/6e2aed76.jpg
Like the setup Skintop.
-Jax
mastiffhound
12-09-12, 16:21
MistWolf, what handguard is that on your Precision Rifle? I like it and it looks flat on the bottom.
Not sure what to think about this? I know guys that it wouldn't matter if they had a "Walmart" AR, Dicks AR or your AR that would drop just about any BG before the BG would even get his barrel up. The last man standing will be the man who has better skills and training. Period. The post I was trying to quote is this one down here. \/
If this were true 100% of the time as you allude to, we would have no casualties in Iraq or Afghanistan. Oversimplifications like this are detrimental, you can't solely rely on your training, just as you can't solely rely on the weight of your weapon. Everything is a piece of the puzzle that we have to put together in order to maximize efficiency and improve survivability.
How does that saying go;
Your best performance in a fight will be as good as your worst performance in training.
You don't train - you have no performance - you freeze when the time comes.
Baptism by fire sucks.
ETA - you can take a few dozen training classes by the top professionals that have been there, done that, but it will all be for naught if you don't practice what you were taught on a reasonably regular basis.
How does that saying go;
Your best performance in a fight will be as good as your worst performance in training.
You don't train - you have no performance - you freeze when the time comes.
Baptism by fire sucks.
ETA - you can take a few dozen training classes by the top professionals that have been there, done that, but it will all be for naught if you don't practice what you were taught on a reasonably regular basis.
I didn't say not to train, I'm saying that training is only one of the many things necessary for success.
We are in complete agreement.
If this were true 100% of the time as you allude to, we would have no casualties in Iraq or Afganistan
Come on man, this is a totally different situation. The scenario that we are discussing is Mano e Mano, you and the BG. Not RPGs', IED's, snipers and ambushes. Plus there are a lot of guys out there that shoot matches almost every weekend that put more rounds down range in one year than some of our infantry men do in ten.
Come on man, this is a totally different situation. The scenario that we are discussing is Mano e Mano, you and the BG. Not RPGs', IED's, snipers and ambushes. Plus there are a lot of guys out there that shoot matches almost every weekend that put more rounds down range in one year than some of our infantry men do in ten.
So the hollywood bank shootout where the police outnumbered two jackass garbage excuses for human beings with body armor was a training disparity issue? You can't tell me those two gunmen were doing ak spetznatz ballet with sonny puzikas all the time beforehand. Tons of other examples of good people with superior training being gunned down if you don't like that one. There are no absolutes in anything. There is no "magic bullet" be it a certain type of training, equipment, level of fitness etc. ALL of those things have to be working in synergy to get your best results, period ;)
ETA: Also, what do matches have to do with combat or LEO work? Can you clarify? Because I don't see how three gun remotely resembles anything like combat and I'm guessing has even less in common with confronting an armed purp in who knows where at night.
When you see the bad guy and the bad guy sees you, odds are your barrels will not be pointing at each other. The time it takes to put your barrel on target will determine who wins and who dies. Translation, the guy with the heavy barrel AR with a full length rail loaded with tacti-cool accessories will be ganked by the bad guy with a Wallmart AR with factory handguards:)
Pistolera, incase you didn't see the post I was quoting here it is.
You and the bad guy, not two guys coming out of a bank. Not our Military fighting the Taliban. Just you and the bad guy. 9 times out of 10 the guy with the better training not the lighter rifle, will walk away. You are talking about a totally different situation. The whole bank robbers with armor gunned down those policemen because the police walked into something they were not prepared for. AGAIN, you and the bad guy, who will be standing last and why?
Nvm..Not interested in debating this high noon jason bourne duel scenario
Then start another thread titled "you against two guys with fully-auto Ak's and full body armor" who would win. And I wouldn't be debating it with you either. The two guys with ak's and body armor win every time. I see what your saying and I agree with YOU. But I'm under the assumption we are talking about 1 bad guy with an AR15 and you with you preferred AR15 in a dark alley so to speak. The guy with the better training and more trigger time is probably going to walk away. That's all I'm saying.
Then start another thread titled "you against two guys with fully-auto Ak's and full body armor" who would win. And I wouldn't be debating it with you either. The two guys with ak's and body armor win every time.
Please tell me this is a joke? Care to qualify any of the nonsense you said with a single verifiable real world example? By the way, bad guys with AK's don't win all the time, at least not in 2012.
http://dailyitem.com/0100_news/x1647292459/Lycoming-County-state-police-trooper-honored-for-heroism-during-September-flooding
MistWolf, what handguard is that on your Precision Rifle? I like it and it looks flat on the bottom.
It's a PRI Delta made of carbon fiber. It's triangular and I like how the flat bottom fits in my hand.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/DSC_0201.jpg
PRI carbon fiber handguards are pricey. I really like this tube. Grant tells me he's had problems with PRI. I've had none with mine (sample of one) but I don't run the precision rifle hard as I've done with the carbine and haven't had much chance to take it afield hunting due to bouncing around the country going from job site to job site (aviation)
Please tell me this is a joke? Care to qualify any of the nonsense you said with a single verifiable real world example? By the way, bad guys with AK's don't win all the time, at least not in 2012.
http://dailyitem.com/0100_news/x1647292459/Lycoming-County-state-police-trooper-honored-for-heroism-during-September-flooding
Please retread my last post, I'm not disagreeing with what your saying, I'm saying we were talking about a totally different scenario just to make a point that a "lighter" rifle is not as important than training and trigger time. Thats all.
johnpuga1982
12-09-12, 18:12
When I went through basic combat training, we weren't allowed to use slings. In full body armor we trained, rucked, etc with no sling for either the M16, M240, or M249B.
We ate breakfast, lunch, and dinner with our rifle in our firing hand and our tray in the other hand. No sling, weapon between us and the table while we ate. You just learn to deal with the weight after a while.
Shoulderthinggoesup
12-09-12, 18:21
On second thought, who gives a **** what I think. deleted.
How does that saying go;
Your best performance in a fight will be as good as your worst performance in training.
Well we all have off days so I'm hoping that's not the case. I know I won't do better than I do in training, but I don't believe I'll do so bad as my worst day.
I've heard another version. "You won't rise to the occasion. You will fall to your level of training." Usually they direct this at the people who only shoot when mandated for quals. Usually after they get caught whining about having to shoot drills after they have completed the qual course.
So the hollywood bank shootout where the police outnumbered two jackass garbage excuses for human beings with body armor was a training disparity issue? You can't tell me those two gunmen were doing ak spetznatz ballet with sonny puzikas all the time beforehand. Tons of other examples of good people with superior training being gunned down if you don't like that one.
I don't like that one. In common usage the phrase "gunned down" implies death. None of the good people were killed in the North Hollywood shootout. Both of the bad people, however, died.
It's just for old guys who don't lift ;)
lawusmc0844
12-09-12, 19:59
I am going to go against the grain a little by mentioning that I actually prefer a heavier profile barrel. Not the HBAR or gov but a barrel that is heavy at the receiver end and tapers to a thinner profile at the muzzle end. Too bad I've never seen that profile but I'd get it in a heartbeat if its from a reputable source.
I don't see an obsession with weight now but I remember last year when there seemed to be multiple pages nitpicking over ounces. I love T1s and thats what I mainly use now but is the difference between that and a Comp M4s that noticable?? A poster mentioned the "heavy" Colt sling swivel thats on the barrel or the ones normally on the FSB . I'd remove them only because I rather have the sling mounted on the rail via QD. The weight is neglible.
If you find an M4 heavy, maybe its time to hit the gym? :D
I am going to go against the grain a little by mentioning that I actually prefer a heavier profile barrel. Not the HBAR or gov but a barrel that is heavy at the receiver end and tapers to a thinner profile at the muzzle end. Too bad I've never seen that profile but I'd get it in a heartbeat if its from a reputable source.
I don't see an obsession with weight now but I remember last year when there seemed to be multiple pages nitpicking over ounces. I love T1s and thats what I mainly use now but is the difference between that and a Comp M4s that noticable?? A poster mentioned the "heavy" Colt sling swivel thats on the barrel or the ones normally on the FSB . I'd remove them only because I rather have the sling mounted on the rail via QD. The weight is neglible.
If you find an M4 heavy, maybe its time to hit the gym? :D
Yup. I just removed the front sling swivel from mine (been using a QD on my MOE handguard) and I couldn't feel a difference. A single sling swivel isn't all that heavy...
The 2 tenths won't matter if you miss.
You don't just get faster with less weight. You have to train. Learned a long time ago that the first to get lead downrange usually wins.
...A single sling swivel isn't all that heavy...
...but you can bet ten thousand sling swivels would be!
It boils down to simple ergonomics and balance.
I've said it before- Ounces equal pounds, pounds equal pain.
So what's the fuss?
It's the retardation that drives the sales of Polymer lowered ARs and Kel Tec Garbage guns.
Doc. Holiday
12-10-12, 12:16
I think most have already hit it, its all based on mission specific. Don't carry more than what you need.
I've found that if you ditch all your clothes and just wear a loin cloth, you'll be able to carry a heavier AR for a longer amount of time.:lol:
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