View Full Version : BCM 12-10-12 Announcement?
What's it going to be?
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c0.0.843.403/p843x403/44583_10151199654467737_212630524_n.jpg
Some kind of KeyMod rail/handguard or what?
txf15crewchief
12-09-12, 13:28
That rail is Midwest Industries SS Gen-2 modular rail. They already have some URGs on their website with that rail. Maybe a complete rifle?
That rail is Midwest Industries SS Gen-2 modular rail. They already have some URGs on their website with that rail. Maybe a complete rifle?
... No to both....
I agree it looks a bit like the MI rail but BCM is not going to say it's a "huge announcement" for a freakin' MI modular rail that's been out forever. Let's be real here.
Interesting. Where did you find this? I don't see it on either of BCM's sites.
Personally I would love to see them start offering the NSR handguard on their uppers/rifles but I doubt that's what all the fuss is about.
Underwood 43
12-09-12, 13:54
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151199654467737&set=a.240824117736.140757.69697327736&type=1
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151199654467737&set=a.240824117736.140757.69697327736&type=1
This.
Also according to BCM's Facebook page:
Something big is coming tomorrow...
Somebody spill the beans already.
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151199654467737&set=a.240824117736.140757.69697327736&type=1
Should have known. They're determined to make me have to join Facebook.
A new rail would be Interesting, I've been waiting for an NSR but this is worth looking into.
txf15crewchief
12-09-12, 14:05
... No to both....
I agree it looks a bit like the MI rail but BCM is not going to say it's a "huge announcement" for a freakin' MI modular rail that's been out forever. Let's be real here.
I never said that was the huge announcement. All I was saying that it might be part of a whole rifle package they are offering and yes, they are selling MI railed uppers.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-LIGHT-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw-mi-ssg212.htm
I never said that was the huge announcement. All I was saying that it might be part of a whole rifle package they are offering and yes, they are selling MI railed uppers.
We know this, which is why it's not what the announcement is... BCM has been offering complete rifles for awhile now. BudsGunShop has them for $1,000 w/ optional 3 month layaway.
txf15crewchief
12-09-12, 14:10
We know this, which is why it's not what the announcement is... BCM has been offering complete rifles for awhile now. BudsGunShop has them for $1,000 w/ optional 3 month layaway.
I meant the rail as part of a package deal, similar to the EAG carbines. Yes I am completely aware they have been selling complete carbines. I have not lived under a rock for 2 years. However, it does look like it has a slightly raised area that appears more like the Geissele Super Modular Rail.
I meant the rail as part of a package deal, similar to the EAG carbines. Yes I am completely aware they have been selling complete carbines. I have not lived under a rock for 2 years. However, it does look like it has a slightly raised area that appears more like the Geissele Super Modular Rail.
That was my thought also. Perhaps some kind of partnership with Geissele... I'm guessing it's a new BCM Gunfighter product, moreso than a new configuration or whatever the case me be.
Although MI makes good products now (they've come a long way), I do not see BCM partnering with them simply because some people still don't view their products as duty grade.
brushy bill
12-09-12, 14:21
dissy?
Call me crazy but what little shown in that pic resembles the SMR MK1 rail's design....top rail in pic below
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08222-1.jpg
I think youre on to something here... Pure specullation but perhaps a mono upper in partnership with Geissele?
Call me wacky but maybe it has nothing to do with a rail or upper. I hope its a little Unicorn with a BCM logo.
Haley posted it on fb as well.. I thought of a BCM/Haley carbine..
lI hope its a little Unicorn with a BCM logo.
Or a carebear.
JohnnyNumbers
12-09-12, 16:57
The anticipation is building :cool:.
I guess we'll find out soon enough, but I wouldn't mind seeing BCM offer a few uppers in 300 BLK seeing as how I'm putting together mental notes for a build.
Besides...I recall a recent YouTube video of Haley blasting steel with a 300 BLK...and if Haley is mentioning this on his FB as well...hmmm. :cool:
Just thinking out loud.
I hope its a little Unicorn with a BCM logo.
I have the BCM Unicorn, but I've been asked to hold off on pictures until the Unicorn is mating on a regular basis. :D
sinlessorrow
12-09-12, 17:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjlxxPUQp4&feature=youtu.be
Count me in for 10!
I have the BCM Unicorn, but I've been asked to hold off on pictures until the Unicorn is mating on a regular basis. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjlxxPUQp4&feature=youtu.be
Intentionally leaked a bit early....?
I don't think there is much question this carbine will outsell the other ones.
Official spokespersons changing around, new products, what company is in bed with who....
Much ado about nothing.
Still waiting for their comp to come out.
Pray that it is not an across the board price increase. Pray that it is not a constant "Out Of Stock" listing on their website.
BCM will announce they have been bought by Freedom Group and merged with BM. The new company will be called "Bravo Bushmaster". Company motto will be "Now, just as good a Colt- Bravo Bushmaster" :jester:
Okay, let me have a few guesses. LAV quote: BCM guns and gear; Paul B at Bravo has been doing a killer job as of late and is on his way to M4 industry domination amongst serious end users- if you have never tried any of his great kit this is the perfect time. Maybe LAV is coming on board as a consultant with Bravo Co. or to head up their rumored R&D facility in Nevada. Viva Las Vegas baby !! Or maybe an ambi CH or a new rail and upper combo that is something like this :
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/11/04/first-look-at-mega-arms-308-upper-receiver-mkm-maten/. I'm done. :confused:
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-09-12, 17:30
So, Midlength BCM AR, with Geissele rail and ACT trigger, BCM Comp, CH, and Grip, Inforce WML, IWC Mounts, B5 Enhanced Sopmod Bravo all in Disruptive Grey Cerakote. Sounds like a good deal.
Asia is on the other side of the international date line. It's already Monday, 10 Dec 2012 over there.
In all seriousness, that's a very cool carbine. Along with offerings by Sionics, deciding which AR to choose has gotten tougher
TriviaMonster
12-09-12, 17:42
I think its the Haley Skimmer BCM Enhanced Signature Modular Carbine Weapon System or the HSBESMCWS for those in the know.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Five_Point_Five_Six
12-09-12, 17:51
Rob Pincus signature rifle? Or James Yeager perhaps?
In all seriousness, that's a very cool carbine. Along with offerings by Sionics, deciding which AR to choose has gotten tougher
These are the good-ole-days!!!
Lawnchair 04
12-09-12, 18:03
Shit there goes my tax return.
Good thing I can't view the video at work, stupid gov computers.
Serpico1985
12-09-12, 18:24
Looks like the HVT from the BCM video is Chris Kattan aka Corkey Ramano. Good for him, still out there snagging acting gigs.
Nice rifle but with a 10" handguard I'll pass. Let me know when it's available with a 13 or 15 inch option. I do like the color choice and the WML though.
Looks very nicely done, I am on the list to be notified when the comp is available and I that WML set-up is growing on me.
polymorpheous
12-09-12, 19:14
Haley posted it on fb as well.. I thought of a BCM/Haley carbine..
Everything BCM posts on FB Haley Strategic posts as well.
Haley does marketing too.
Looks interesting, if anything options are a good thing in the industry
polymorpheous
12-09-12, 19:33
Just watched the video.
Looks like a well thought out weapon.
I really like that rail.
Never really gave it that hard of a look before.
The comp is a few weeks late on release.
Perhaps it will finally be ready to ship tomorrow.
here ya go:
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/BCM-The-Jack.jpg
The Geissele rails are awesome. Getting them installed on a BCM RIFLE with a B5 Bravo is a fantastic package.
C4
Looks nice. Explains where all the comps and B5 bravo stocks went :)
Well saw the video and seeing the pic above, this looks pretty well thoughtout. Wouldn't mind messing around with one at some point.
Official video just dropped on the BCM YouTube (http://youtu.be/nZjlxxPUQp4) channel.
Website is live as well here: http://www.BravoCompanyMFG.com/TheJack
Spec sheet here: http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/specification/bcm_hsp_thejack.php
BCM will announce they have been bought by Freedom Group and merged with BM. The new company will be called "Bravo Bushmaster". Company motto will be "Now, just as good a Colt- Bravo Bushmaster" :jester:
Thats pretty damn funny.
Do I have $hit in my eyes or is that an 11" Geissele rail?
Ed:: N/M it's a 10
Do I have $hit in my eyes or is that an 11" Geissele rail?
It's a 10" SMR.
I do like that the charging handle appears to be built up for gas mitigation when shooting suppressed.
Did I hear Travis say that "...this is not a collector's gun..."
Am I reading too much into that? ;)
Did I hear Travis say that "...this is not a collector's gun..."
Am I reading too much into that? ;)
A little shit talking on the Costa gun? I approve :)
sinlessorrow
12-09-12, 20:26
is that the B5 Bravo SOPMOD stock?
It also appears to be some type of intermediate gas length. Travis stated something about that in the video.
is that the B5 Bravo SOPMOD stock?
It's an improved version. Whatever that means. I've never had any problems with the older versions.
1 meeeeeeelllion dollars!
Anyone see a price yet?
It also appears to be some type of intermediate gas length. Travis stated something about that in the video.
I agree - the gas block is sticking out past a 10" rail...
Anyone see a price yet?
MSRP is $2145 according to Gear Scout (http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/12/09/hst-bcm-the-jack/). That means it'll probably be around $2k from BCM.
Is the alphanumeric strings suppose to mean something?
I fell like I am trying to figure out some weird vanity plate.
ForTehNguyen
12-09-12, 20:58
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/TheJack/index.php
Wormydog1724
12-09-12, 21:00
MSRP is $2145 according to Gear Scout (http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/12/09/hst-bcm-the-jack/). That means it'll probably be around $2k from BCM.
Hooooly shit. I just don't get it.
LOL - I didn't notice the L337 speak in the HALEY STRATEGIC...
Anyway its immaterial, the real question is how well this rifle would demolish a cinder block... And is it light enough to be jumped over a hay bale...
LOL - I didn't notice the L337 speak in the HALEY STRATEGIC...
Anyway its immaterial, the real question is how well this rifle would demolish a cinder block... And is it light enough to be jumped over a hay bale...
I just laughed milk out of my mouth reading your comment... yes I said milk.
Did anyone notice if the gas block was pinned on (or has that been deemed unnecessary for set-ups like this) ?
Not directly related, but watching them explain in the video about mounting the rail section, then the Thorntail mount, then the light to get it where they wanted it, all of sudden a little light named "keymod system" went on in my head. I get it now!
Sorry for any derailment.
HardLuck682
12-09-12, 21:13
How can they make a Travis Haley Carbine without including a T-1/LT660 combo?
vicious_cb
12-09-12, 21:14
14.5″ Government Profile Barrel
Why not a pencil barrel? It doesnt look like the carbine is meant to be run suppressed considering its got a BCM comp pinned on.
ForTehNguyen
12-09-12, 21:18
Why not a pencil barrel? It doesnt look like the carbine is meant to be run suppressed considering its got a BCM comp pinned on.
On a 14.5" midlength there isnt much barrel in front of the gas block to machine off for any substantial weight savings.
Is the alphanumeric strings suppose to mean something?
I fell like I am trying to figure out some weird vanity plate.
If you decode it you get a free one.
GeorgiaBoy
12-09-12, 21:24
Barcodes are throwing me for a loop... Surprised they aren't QR codes, they are "cooler".
Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk
If you decode it you get a free one.
It says
"drink your ovaltine"
Son of a bitch........
On the PDF on their website states it has a BCM mid length gas system. If that is a 10" rail I don't understand how this is a mid length gas system.
If you read the announcement it stated compatible for A2 style mounted suppressors.
Why not a pencil barrel? It doesnt look like the carbine is meant to be run suppressed considering its got a BCM comp pinned on.
1 meeeeeeelllion dollars!
It better come with sharks- sharks with layzers
It says
"drink your ovaltine"
Son of a bitch........
I'm old enough to get that joke. :sad:
MOUNT-N-SLOT
12-09-12, 21:42
Is the alphanumeric strings suppose to mean something?
I fell like I am trying to figure out some weird vanity plate.
They do...
MOUNT-N-SLOT
MOUNT-N-SLOT
12-09-12, 21:47
Not directly related, but watching them explain in the video about mounting the rail section, then the Thorntail mount, then the light to get it where they wanted it, all of sudden a little light named "keymod system" went on in my head. I get it now!
Sorry for any derailment.
Geisllie's rails are thinner, making them necessary for adjustment of the Offset THORNTAIL. KEYMOD's not the ideal solution either. Each KEYMOD slot take up so much linear length, you lose the fine adjustability you get with a slot (VTAC) or a 1913 rail. We'll have a KEYMOD THORNTAIL line, and other mounts out in January to compliment our other products. But no Sling Mount...
MOUNT-N-SLOT
SpeedRacer
12-09-12, 21:53
Looks disruptive.
Looks disruptive.
I see the similarites......
http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/sitegraphics/uniforms/romulan_disruptor_2.jpg
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/BCM-The-Jack.jpg
:D
All jest aside, it really looks like a nice carbine.........I despise modular rail systems, but this one is growing on me. That company is the best thing to come out of Norristown in a long time ;)
ForTehNguyen
12-09-12, 22:02
On the PDF on their website states it has a BCM mid length gas system. If that is a 10" rail I don't understand how this is a mid length gas system.
its obviously not a carbine gas system if the gas block protrudes from a 10" rail. A carbine gas block can be covered up with a 9" rail
Very Very Nice.
I have to say I'd buy that one before the Costa. Good to see it come out.
BCM has always made great fighting weapons and weapons accessories.
Good job on the rifle. I need that rail on my Commando.
I figured it looked a smidge longer than a mid length gas system.
I agree - the gas block is sticking out past a 10" rail...
Standard 14.5" midlength like on all the other BCM 14.5" midlength uppers.
ForTehNguyen
12-09-12, 22:30
im pretty interested in the light, you can get it separately here:
http://www.haleystrategic.com/store/inforce_wml_hsp.php
its different than the standard Inforce WML which is 125 lumens @ 2 hours high setting with constant/momentary with strobe, the HSP one is 200 lumens @ 90 minutes, momentary only, and no strobe.
It's an improved version. Whatever that means. I've never had any problems with the older versions.
How about a smaller, lighter version, without storage. Oh yeah, MSRP is only $62.
I really like the look of the carbine but the price is too high imo since you could build something similar for less. In addition I'm not a fan of the 10" rail not sure why they went that way when the trend seems to be for longer rails.
They do...
MOUNT-N-SLOT
There is a hand full of guys that do, and we're not saying ;)
How about a smaller, lighter version, without storage. Oh yeah, MSRP is only $62.
Glad you chimed in.
According to the PDF file on the website, it says "more utility". What can the new stock do that the older one couldn't? Also is it only lighter and smaller because you took the storage space out? Or did you cut weight else where?
Looks like a great update to such an old stock design. Can't wait to pick one up. Loving the MSRP too.
$2,000 doesn't sound unreasonable for what it is. KAC and Noveske cost more.
What would it cost to buy a BCM then outfit it similarly?
What would it cost to have someone like Rainier or Grant to build one?
What would it cost to order parts and make your own build to the same spec?
friendlyfireisnt
12-09-12, 22:53
Looks good, and the price isn't bad for what you get.
Looks like all that needs to be added is optics and a sling.
Glad you chimed in.
According to the PDF file on the website, it says "more utility". What can the new stock do that the older one couldn't? Also is it only lighter and smaller because you took the storage space out? Or did you cut weight else where?
Looks like a great update to such an old stock design. Can't wait to pick one up. Loving the MSRP too.
Compared to a Sopmod the cheek weld is slightly less, the rear of the stock is angled, and the stock is slightly shorter. Were glad Redback One runs B5's Enhanced Sopmod, we'll get you some Bravos to check out.
$2,000 doesn't sound unreasonable for what it is. KAC and Noveske cost more.
What would it cost to buy a BCM then outfit it similarly?
What would it cost to have someone like Rainier or Grant to build one?
What would it cost to order parts and make your own build to the same spec?
Well once I looked around I guess my gut reaction to the price was wrong since a 14.5" bcm recce is ~$1400-1500 once you add the rail paint and light.
They do...
MOUNT-N-SLOT
Well, what?
Otherwise it is like getting a tattoo in Japanese without being sure what it means.
I saw another real world trainer this weekend in AZ who was rocking a BCM carbine with the Bravo stock and he had very favorable comments to make about it.
I highly doubt he would have said it if it wasn't true. I have known him for a few years and he is no BS when it comes to gear and employment.
Maybe I will be able to mess with one at SHOT next month. Interested in seeing this grey color in person.
How about a smaller, lighter version, without storage. Oh yeah, MSRP is only $62.
That is a great price, right in line with the MOE. You guys are going to sell a metric ton of these.
Does this mean we'll be seeing the BCM Brakes ready for release soon? Also anyone notice the BCM folding diopter sights? Is that something they plan on selling? Or is it a Jack carbine thing only...
Looks to be priced appropriately. It has just enough customization (cerakote, laser engraving) to feel special, but didn't go overboard.
Since it's already drawing comparisons to the larue costa rifle, they're both 14.5, both with smooth hand guards, and both have cerakote. They're actually very similar, but the Jack seems more "hard/real world use" with forged receivers, comp/flash hider hybrid and a chrome lined barrel vs billet receivers, brake, and a ss barrel... Which seems more competition oriented.
Santa?!?!? If you're paying attention to this thread like I've been, I've been a really good boy this year and sure could use a 3rd BCM.
Setup looks sweet.
I just watched the video and it's great to see a nice collaboration of manufacturers in this one. It was also good to see the faces behind the name. I don't think I've ever seen Paul Buffoni before.
IMO this rifle is tastefully done. 2013 is going to be a big year for BCM. :cool:
2K or more....???
really?
i dont mean to sound rude, i understand the rifle has a good amount of aftermarket parts that add value, cost and function.
but explain why i shouldn't just buy a DD rifle, add a light and have "nearly" the same rifle for $400-$800 cheaper? (depending on who you know and what you pay)
2K or more....???
really?
i dont mean to sound rude, i understand the rifle has a good amount of aftermarket parts that add value, cost and function.
but explain why i shouldn't just buy a DD rifle, add a light and have "nearly" the same rifle for $400-$800 cheaper? (depending on who you know and what you pay)
Instead of someone explaining what you need, why not add up the parts yourself, throw in FET, and see what the price is that you are looking at. If you think your needs are better served by a DD carbine and that you can get one with a good light for $1200, go do it and post the link to the "nearly" the same carbine.
On top of what Stickman said, remember that there are costs involved (boring shit really- like paying employees, advertising, electricity, state and local taxes, etc..)
Then source everything like Stickman said and see where you land.
2K or more....???
really?
i dont mean to sound rude, i understand the rifle has a good amount of aftermarket parts that add value, cost and function.
but explain why i shouldn't just buy a DD rifle, add a light and have "nearly" the same rifle for $400-$800 cheaper? (depending on who you know and what you pay)
The price is quite fair for a "signature" type rifle with this level of content. And yes despite what Travis says in video this is a "signature" branded type rifle. :)
Official video just dropped on the BCM YouTube (http://youtu.be/nZjlxxPUQp4) channel.
Website is live as well here: http://www.BravoCompanyMFG.com/TheJack
Spec sheet here: http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/specification/bcm_hsp_thejack.php
Pinned gas block or not? Perhaps I missed it.
polymorpheous
12-10-12, 04:45
Pinned gas block or not? Perhaps I missed it.
Every BCM factory upper has the gas block pinned.
Be it a standard front sight base or a RECCE style upper with a low profile gas block.
BCM gas blocks are actually installed with set screws (2) and the barrel is dimpled. They also apply adhesive to the screws as well. They are as secure as it will get without drilling and pinning the actual block.
I used to wonder how secure it is, but to my knowledge there has never been an issue. Without seeing this one under the rail I would assume this is the same.
Every BCM factory upper has the gas block pinned.
Be it a standard front sight base or a RECCE style upper with a low profile gas block.
polymorpheous
12-10-12, 05:06
BCM gas blocks are actually installed with set screws (2) and the barrel is dimpled. They also apply adhesive to the screws as well. They are as secure as it will get without drilling and pinning the actual block.
I used to wonder how secure it is, but to my knowledge there has never been an issue. Without seeing this one under the rail I would assume this is the same.
I swore I read in their RECCE upper's description that the gas blocks were pinned.
Wouldn't be the first time I ate crow.
Won't be the last.
Thanks IG.
I could be wrong also. I know all the others that I saw or put together were using set screws.
I swore I read in their RECCE upper's description that the gas blocks were pinned.
Wouldn't be the first time I ate crow.
Won't be the last.
Thanks IG.
My Kino upper came with a pinned gas block (well, it's set screwed too).
montanadave
12-10-12, 06:47
So a lot of buzz surrounding this new model ... but has anybody seen a release date or an order form with the actual price? Aplologies if I missed it.
Does anybody actually buy these "signature" rifles? First the Pat Rogers/EAG Tactical and now this.
I'd like to see a 300BLK upper from BCM first and foremost. I'm suspecting with the relationship between Haley and BCM it will not be long since Haley seems to be quite the fan of the 300BLK.
Does anybody actually buy these "signature" rifles? First the Pat Rogers/EAG Tactical and now this.
I'd like to see a 300BLK upper from BCM first and foremost. I'm suspecting with the relationship between Haley and BCM it will not be long since Haley seems to be quite the fan of the 300BLK.
You betcha. Look at the Costa Edition 5.56 LaRue rifle. The small releases have sold out in hours and they cost more. There are two releases left and I can imagine them selling out even quicker.
2K or more....???
really?
i dont mean to sound rude, i understand the rifle has a good amount of aftermarket parts that add value, cost and function.
but explain why i shouldn't just buy a DD rifle, add a light and have "nearly" the same rifle for $400-$800 cheaper? (depending on who you know and what you pay)
I am not sure how you came up with this number. DD rifles with a rail and Troy flip up sights would run $1800. Add Cerakote, light and mount for the light and you are at $2000 (Easily).
C4
Anyone have an idea on how many rifles are being released? Limited or regular run?
So a lot of buzz surrounding this new model ... but has anybody seen a release date or an order form with the actual price? Aplologies if I missed it.
About 6 weeks. We will be stocking them and accepting pre-orders.
Dealer prices are not set yet, but will soon. My guess is that the $2k retail price will be accurate.
C4
Does anybody actually buy these "signature" rifles? First the Pat Rogers/EAG Tactical and now this.
Yes. We sell and get requests for the EAG rifles.
C4
Anyone have an idea on how many rifles are being released? Limited or regular run?
Regular product.
C4
Looks like a nice rifle. Without wanting to stir a pot (in case I missed something) but is there a reason that there is not a piece of magpul on this?
Regular product.
C4
Awesome! Very nice on everyone's part. The limited run stuff is for the birds. Time to scrape up some cash.. :D
I know this doesn't tickle some fancies but I love it. It's a good grab and go rifle that doesn't need much of anything (IMO).
Does anybody actually buy these "signature" rifles? First the Pat Rogers/EAG Tactical and now this.
My first and currently only AR is the EAG model. I think they're a great idea as you have a rifle configured out of the box (minus the Aimpoint), which is great for beginners who don't necessarily know what they want, or want something close to what is offered (as I did).
Would I want this rifle? Not really, as my personal tastes are different. But it looks to be a good rifle to recommend to someone looking to get their first gun who is looking into training and what not.
If this rifle would have been available 4 months ago, I surely would not have built my own. The price does not seem too high, like a limited production rifle would have been. I think it will be a huge seller for BCM. They are tapping into multiple sectors of the gun buying community:
#1. Those who want reliable weapons well suited for a gun-fight.
#2. Those who are Haley fanboys who have more money than trigger time.
I don't think that the #2 group is the focus of this offering from BCM, just a natural result of using Haley Strategic Partners for advertising and product promotion. This appears to be a partnership which produces very positive results for BCM and real world shooters.
I'm personally not crazy about the color, but it wouldn't keep me from buying the rifle if I could afford another.
Good move BCM!
If BCM can get this rifle to shooters for 2k or less I say they have done very good by us. The company has worked hard to put product in front of profit...but the first time someone thinks a rifle is $100 bucks too much the whinefest begins. The way I add it up, the price seems fair compared to other similar rifles.
This pissy attitude towards our few remaining good companies is exactly why they are so few in number...sorry for getting somewhat off topic, and yes I am self-employed, by choice.
Me likey!!! Sign me up. I'll take one ASAP:
http://i48.tinypic.com/11huknd.jpg
That video is a little over the top though. I could use less tactical fan fare and more descriptions and weapons details.
NCPatrolAR
12-10-12, 08:53
Looks like a nice rifle. Without wanting to stir a pot (in case I missed something) but is there a reason that there is not a piece of magpul on this?
Magpul products are no longer adaptively disruptive enough
I'd buy one, because there wasnt one single ****ing zombie mentioned in the intro video. Thank you BCM and Travis Haley.
Now how about an LEO discount so this can be my patrol rifle :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjlxxPUQp4
The carbine looks nice but after reading the spec sheet to my surprise no hammer forged barrel?
Looks like a nice rifle. Without wanting to stir a pot (in case I missed something) but is there a reason that there is not a piece of magpul on this?
Looks like a magpul trigger guard is on there
theblackknight
12-10-12, 09:03
Magpul products are no longer adaptively disruptive enough
Yes! i like it.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
snackgunner
12-10-12, 09:10
2K or more....???
really?
i dont mean to sound rude, i understand the rifle has a good amount of aftermarket parts that add value, cost and function.
but explain why i shouldn't just buy a DD rifle, add a light and have "nearly" the same rifle for $400-$800 cheaper? (depending on who you know and what you pay)
Rude and didn't need to be said. There's always one who feels the need to make these kind of comments.
Nobody needs to explain anything. Don't like the rifle, don't buy it. It's that simple. Keep this kind of stuff to yourself.
I'd buy one, because there wasnt one single ****ing zombie mentioned in the intro video. Thank you BCM and Travis Haley.
Now how about an LEO discount so this can be my patrol rifle :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjlxxPUQp4
I didn't see any hay bales either .... :p
The carbine looks nice but after reading the spec sheet to my surprise no hammer forged barrel?
This.
It's the first thing that I noticed while I was reading. I'd like to hear an explanation for that.
This.
It's the first thing that I noticed while I was reading. I'd like to hear an explanation for that.
Whoa. You guys are right. $2,000+ and it's not even a BFH upper??? That's insanity.
I would reall like to see a BFH barrel on this puppy. I like the 10"rail. That rail is tough as nails but not lightweight.
Nice rifle but with a 10" handguard I'll pass. Let me know when it's available with a 13 or 15 inch option. I do like the color choice and the WML though.
seriously, I would be all over this if it had the geissele 13.5 rail.
I did everyone the favor of breaking down the parts using retail prices not including shipping charges for the parts or assembly charges for those that do not have the tools/time. Right off the bat is comes in at almost $1900. That figure does not include the cerakote finish either. Let's say for shits and grins that service is $200 not including to and from shipping. The asking price of $2000 (projected I guess) doesn't seem too bad.
I did everyone the favor of breaking down the parts using retail prices not including shipping charges for the parts or assembly charges for those that do not have the tools/time. Right off the bat is comes in at almost $1900. That figure does not include the cerakote finish either. Let's say for shits and grins that service is $200 not including to and from shipping. The asking price of $2000 (projected I guess) doesn't seem too bad.
how did you come up with 1900 before kote?
NeoNeanderthal
12-10-12, 10:33
I'd love to be able to buy just the lower, very nice looking. However, the rail is too short for me, the gunfighter grip is too thin, and the big white random numbers are too.....well random.
Stock looks sweet- for the price i might have to check one out.
Oh yeah, the qd endplate with a small D-ring looks very nice
how did you come up with 1900 before kote? It's a $300 rail, $200 for kote, $145 light and mount, $60 trigger and a $50 stock.
Stand by for breakdown. I will edit.
Suppliers for rifle are: BCM, Geissele, HS, G&R
Upper:
Geissele SMR (Price based on 13") $345
BCM 14.5" Standard Barrel mid $229
BCM Comp Mod 1 $95
BCM gas block $45
BCM upper receiver $100
BCM BCG $160
BCM CH $45
Troy sights $218
Inforce w/mount $149
= $1386
Lower:
BCM lower w/ ALG ACT $425
BCM B5 stock $58
= $483
Grand total: $1869
Remember, shipping is not included for anything. Optional assembly fee is not included. Transfer fee not included. Cerakote, roughly $200 is not included. People always say "I can build it cheaper.." But you get the picture. I'm talking about part for part build.
TacticalTyler
12-10-12, 10:36
Soo this new bcm comp will accept and KAC NT4 suppressor? Other question is, do I get this or the new Tavor? Lol
Gray must be the new FDE. No chf barrel? And isn't that rail still a fat little piggy pig?
I'll pass unless I saw one used for $1600 or so. I don't really dig the marketing letters on the upper receiver. And I guess I'm not seeing how this is "better" than anything else out there other than it comes pre-made. Must not be marketed at me.
Stand by for breakdown. I will edit.
Suppliers for rifle are: BCM, Geissele, HS, G&R
Upper:
Geissele SMR (Price based on 13") $345
BCM 14.5" Standard Barrel mid $229
BCM Comp Mod 1 $95
BCM gas block $45
BCM upper receiver $100
BCM BCG $160
BCM CH $45
Troy sights $218
Inforce w/mount $149
= $1386
Lower:
BCM lower w/ ALG ACT $425
BCM B5 stock $58
= $483
Grand total: $1869
Remember, shipping is not included for anything. Optional assembly fee is not included. Transfer fee not included. Cerakote, roughly $200 is not included. People always say "I can build it cheaper.." But you get the picture. I'm talking about part for part build.
Updated my post
30 cal slut
12-10-12, 10:49
Nice looking blaster.
I'd like to order one in pink Cerakote.
Can they call it the "JILL" carbine? :confused:
Updated my post
now that you break it down like that, it's a pretty damn good deal. Anyone with influence on this rifle reading this(grant) ask bcm if they will do a 13.5" rail version lol. Give us rifle length hand guard connoisseurs something to drool over.
Looks nice, I don't really like the pinned flash hider and short rail, but the complete package looks nice. I am surprised it doesn't come with a BFH barrel and longer rail. The trigger and paint are nice touches. I'd be interested in the exact setup but with an 11.5" barrel (unpinned and carbine length gas of course)
Stand by for breakdown. I will edit.
Suppliers for rifle are: BCM, Geissele, HS, G&R
Upper:
Geissele SMR (Price based on 13") $345
BCM 14.5" Standard Barrel mid $229
BCM Comp Mod 1 $95
BCM gas block $45
BCM upper receiver $100
BCM BCG $160
BCM CH $45
Troy sights $218
Inforce w/mount $149
= $1386
Lower:
BCM lower w/ ALG ACT $425
BCM B5 stock $58
= $483
Grand total: $1869
Remember, shipping is not included for anything. Optional assembly fee is not included. Transfer fee not included. Cerakote, roughly $200 is not included. People always say "I can build it cheaper.." But you get the picture. I'm talking about part for part build.
Nice price breakdown. Need to add for for QD endplate, gas tube, pin and weld (if self-assembling). The total keeps going up.
I think most would pay an extra $70 for the BFH, especially with the muzzle device already permanently attached. That part has me confused... I took it for granted that it would be a BFH
That video is a little over the top though. I could use less tactical fan fare and more descriptions and weapons details.
Understatement of the year.
Call me crazy but I just don't think all the numbers and crap on the upper receiver should be there. I feel like it's supposed to give the gun some kind of "cool factor" and it's actually really stupid. That kind of shit has no place on a potential duty gun. Not that it changes the fact that I love my BCM but I thought BCM weapons were not supposed to be safe queens? geesh
Nater, yup. I left those out. As a package and looking past the "signature" aspect of it, I think it's a good deal.
[QUOTE=021411;1465328]Stand by for breakdown. I will edit.
Suppliers for rifle are: BCM, Geissele, HS, G&R
Upper:
Geissele SMR (Price based on 13") $345
BCM 14.5" Standard Barrel mid $229
BCM Comp Mod 1 $95
BCM gas block $45
BCM upper receiver $100
BCM BCG $160
BCM CH $45
Troy sights $218
Inforce w/mount $149
= $1386
Lower:
BCM lower w/ ALG ACT $425
BCM B5 stock $58
= $483
Grand total: $1869
Anyone catch a weight on this puppy yet?
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/specification/bcm_hsp_thejack.php
6 pounds 11 oz as pictured.
This.
It's the first thing that I noticed while I was reading. I'd like to hear an explanation for that.
Because its not needed.
GUNSLINGER733
12-10-12, 11:16
That's what I have in my BCM middy pretty much. Rifle looks good. I'd rock one:D
People are such haters. No one is claiming its revolutionary. It's just another option for people. It will price similar to a comparably done up noveske, knight, larue etc. it's a nice rifle. If it dosent have the features you want or at a price point you can afford then go buy something else.
Seems like a nice pacakge. Anyone who says they can build a similar rifle of equal quality for much less is full of it.
GUNSLINGER733
12-10-12, 11:53
Don't get your panties in a wad
Mauser KAR98K
12-10-12, 11:56
If i had the money to spend (hell, might sell a rifle or and some other stuff, thinking about it) I'd bite. Since I have gone the route of rolling my own as of late, I would buy this full package in a heartbeat. Not because it is Haley, but because this weapon looks to be made with the shooter in mind over the fling and bling. Coming in just under 7 pounds, yet promising the new "comp" reduces muzzle climb makes my Noveske/LMT built an elephant over a wolf.
Don't get your panties in a wad
Too late...now I am going to be walking around uncomfortable and adjusting my pants all day long.
Seriously though:
Knight Gun 2K+
Noveske lo pro 14.5" upper with no sightes is like 1150. Add 200$ for sights a lower with stock and trigger upgrade...same price.
Which BTW...is why i think the rainier arms RUC is still the best bang for the buck pre configured option in the market. Comes similarly equipped for about 1500!
GUNSLINGER733
12-10-12, 12:07
BCM price isn't bad. Heres my figures
BCM Upper - BFH Middy - RIS II - $1035
LMT BCG $140
BCM CH $45
Troy Sights $215
PWS Break $110
Upper = $1545
BCM Lower $360
CTR - Stock $75
Lower = 435
TOTAL = $1980
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-10-12, 12:25
Not a single Magpul piece anywhere.
I infer from the video that the comp was developed between them, but also that there are other things about the gas system that are done to make is shoot flat? Is the gas port size, buffer weight or spring different from other rifles BCM offers?
now that you break it down like that, it's a pretty damn good deal. Anyone with influence on this rifle reading this(grant) ask bcm if they will do a 13.5" rail version lol. Give us rifle length hand guard connoisseurs something to drool over.
You won't find a fan of the 13" rail with me (just too long and too heavy).
10"-11" is MORE than enough "rail-estate" for everyones needs IMHO.
C4
ROG Tactical
12-10-12, 12:40
Nice price breakdown. Need to add for for QD endplate, gas tube, pin and weld (if self-assembling). The total keeps going up.
Plus cerakote
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
I'm old enough to get that joke. :sad:
Or you saw "A Christmas Story". "You'll shoot your eye out!"
Anyone catch a weight on this puppy yet?
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/specification/bcm_hsp_thejack.php
6 pounds 11 oz as pictured.
Don't forget to factor in how much lighter your wallet will be:lol:
GeorgiaBoy
12-10-12, 12:55
Sigh... Delete.
NeoNeanderthal
12-10-12, 13:05
I don't quite get this whole "signature", or "special edition" rifle craze. Just because an instructor likes the set up doesn't mean its for everyone, and doesn't automatically mean it has the best components available.
Vickers has his.
Pat Rogers has his.
Costa has his.
Now Haley has his.
I guess it's a great way to sell a gun though...
.......And they are all 14.5-16" middys. That tells you something
dont forget the S&W Vtac (kyle lamb's)
I don't quite get this whole "signature", or "special edition" rifle craze. Just because an instructor likes the set up doesn't mean its for everyone, and doesn't automatically mean it has the best components available.
Vickers has his.
Pat Rogers has his.
Costa has his.
Now Haley has his.
I guess it's a great way to sell a gun though...
Well this is a rifle that comes out of the box in a similar setup to the result of months worth of customization that many people would buy or order from a builder. Two grand isn't unreasonable for a BCM with Cerakote and light w/ mount. I don't have to send out a rifle to be coated, I don't have to wait for a builder to do the same. This helps justify the price to some people. Me? No.
Haley said that this isn't a collector's rifle. I believe his statement.
I don't quite get this whole "signature", or "special edition" rifle craze. Just because an instructor likes the set up doesn't mean its for everyone, and doesn't automatically mean it has the best components available.
You dont "get" a lot of stuff.
I believe rifles such as the "Jack Carbine", "EAG Carbine", ect are for people who want to purchase a total package weapon.
Some people dont care to spend hours trying to feret out the best deals on the internet. They want a weapon thats basically complete and that will work out of the box.
Both offerings from BCM (Jack and EAG rifles) are out of the box ready to go weapons. One purchase and done.
Btw you dont have to buy one. Is it a good way to sell a gun? Sure, because most of the fellas you mentioned wouldnt put their name on a shitty product.
Not a single Magpul piece anywhere.
As pointed out earlier, the trigger guard.
Some of the comments here really enforces why some take a dim view of the forums.
If you think its overpriced or too gimmicky then don't buy one.
If you don't have something of substance to add to this thread please refrain from posting nonsense.
Hunter Rose
12-10-12, 13:24
You won't find a fan of the 13" rail with me (just too long and too heavy).
10"-11" is MORE than enough "rail-estate" for everyones needs IMHO.
C4
You're not 6'5" are you? Some of us sasquatches prefer that extra 2-3". My 13.5" rail on my rifle length LMT MRP feels the best to me. And it only adds an ounce or so to the 9" MRP rail. You rock on with those Tyrannosaur arms though. :D
You dont "get" a lot of stuff.
I believe rifles such as the "Jack Carbine", "EAG Carbine", ect are for people who want to purchase a total package weapon.
Some people dont care to spend hours trying to feret out the best deals on the internet. They want a weapon thats basically complete and that will work out of the box.
Both offerings from BCM (Jack and EAG rifles) are out of the box ready to go weapons. One purchase and done.
Btw you dont have to buy one. Is it a good way to sell a gun? Sure, because most of the fellas you mentioned wouldnt put their name on a shitty product.
Exactly, I purchased the EAG upper when I really wanted to get a serious fighting rifle; I based my choice on the lineage behind it. It was an easy button choice for me. :cool:
You're not 6'5" are you? Some of us sasquatches prefer that extra 2-3". My 13.5" rail on my rifle length LMT MRP feels the best to me. And it only adds an ounce or so to the 9" MRP rail. You rock on with those Tyrannosaur arms though. :D
Very few people are this tall.
C4
TriviaMonster
12-10-12, 13:42
I think its a pretty neat rifle. I am more than a little worried about the supply of these though. May be easier to get a standard BCM rifle. Err...wait. Can't find those either.
I am not a big Haley fan, but I trust BCM to put out the same great product they always have.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
why the hk style front sight.
I am not sure how you came up with this number. DD rifles with a rail and Troy flip up sights would run $1800. Add Cerakote, light and mount for the light and you are at $2000 (Easily).
C4
I have good connections. :-)
Basically a newer DD used to be around 1200 before the company was as well known, but since the Obama administration there prices have gone up by several hundreds of dollars. (remember when the M4V1 was 1200 new?) cause I do.
Now an M4V4 is 1700+.
I have good connections. :-)
That's like saying "I buy 2nd hand so that's not a good deal".
Not everybody has these so called "connections" :p
It's a fair price. It really does add up and if I were looking to spend a couple grand on a new AR, this would undoubtedly be it. As it stands, I have no reason to replace my nearly identical BCM, minus the cerakote and Geiselle rail.
I'd be all over it for $200 less if they removed the stupid numbers on the upper, the 1/2 dragon fly logo and the un-needed cerakote. Otherwise it looks like a nicely setup rifle.
I have good connections. :-)
Basically a newer DD used to be around 1200 before the company was as well known, but since the Obama administration there prices have gone up by several hundreds of dollars. (remember when the M4V1 was 1200 new?) cause I do.
Now an M4V4 is 1700+.
Is the Obama scare price increases on everything a permanent thing you think? Or are people just trying to gouge and cash in on it for the time being?
I have good connections. :-)
Basically a newer DD used to be around 1200 before the company was as well known, but since the Obama administration there prices have gone up by several hundreds of dollars. (remember when the M4V1 was 1200 new?) cause I do.
Now an M4V4 is 1700+.
When comparing prices, we have to do use MAP (not some buddy discount) and that is what I used.
We can easily discount this rifle to match up with a discounted DD rifle and accessories so in the end, the prices would be the same when you compare apples to apples.
C4
I have good connections. :-)
Basically a newer DD used to be around 1200 before the company was as well known, but since the Obama administration there prices have gone up by several hundreds of dollars. (remember when the M4V1 was 1200 new?) cause I do.
Now an M4V4 is 1700+.
It's no surprise to see what printing TRILLIONS of brand new (unsupported) dollars does to the value of the ones still in your pocket. It's not that the DD rifle is worth more ...it's that your dollars are worth less.
BTW, nice job BCM, the new rifle looks great!!!!
the more i scope this out, the more I want one.
I really really want it to be BFH barreled. If i am going to spend 2K on a a rifle i would rather spend 2.1K for the extra barrel life.
You won't find a fan of the 13" rail with me (just too long and too heavy).
10"-11" is MORE than enough "rail-estate" for everyones needs IMHO.
C4
Not sure how you can determine what everyone needs... some of us have very long arms. I have to suck up a 7" handguard on my duty rifle and it sucks. Given a choice I'd never go shorter than 13, and prefer 15 (bbl permitting of course). The only time I'd WANT a 10" handguard is if the rifle has an 11.5" bbl.
I really really want it to be BFH barreled. If i am going to spend 2K on a a rifle i would rather spend 2.1K for the extra barrel life.
You seriously think you'll "shoot out" a regular chrome lined barrel? How many years is it going to take you?
I can not understand why everyone seems to think a non chf barrel is a deal breaker.
You seriously think you'll "shoot out" a regular chrome lined barrel? How many years is it going to take you?
I can not understand why everyone seems to think a non chf barrel is a deal breaker.
I don't see it as a deal breaker, but for $80 more I don't see why it's not standard for this $2k setup. Why wouldn't you want something better? I'd rather have the better barrel than the paint job or geissele trigger, but that's just me.
Why pay more for a hammer forged barrel? Hammer forging is the least expensive way to mass produce barrels
ForTehNguyen
12-10-12, 17:29
[QUOTE=021411;1465328]Anyone catch a weight on this puppy yet?
BCM website said 6lbs 11oz
Why pay more for a hammer forged barrel? Hammer forging is the least expensive way to mass produce barrels
Once the machine and tooling is paid off?
Good God Fred, I have never seen such whining among gun guys in my life.
Now I'm not a LAV, Costa, EAG, HSP fanboy but they have their rifles just like I have mine. They are top instructors in the current industry. Each of their rifles focus and project the equipment they favor in their training. Just like mine is set up for the way I teach and train.
If you don't like it don't get it, period. One fella already quoted you using all the same parts at around $1800. Hell build your own rifle your own way and stamp your favorite Black Ops combat card logo on it and call it your special end of the univers, the Sith are coming, no safe queen of my double wide trailer boom stick.
Now I'm not a fan of all colors or stampings of companies names out there but Jesus the gun has, BCM, Vltor, Geissle, Magpul, Inforce, B5, stamped all over it so does the little "Jack" stamp on the port side upper really put it over the top??? Go to Wally World and get you a can of Mexican Chrome Krylon and cover it up or re-cerakote or hydro dip it in your favorite.
I've put 10k, 15k, 20k, 30k plus through standard barrels and CHF barrels and trust me you'll never know the difference because half will never shoot it enough to reach that threshold and the other half will put 500 rounds through it and sell it.
Looks like a good gun Paulie. Don't listen to the haters they're there for entertainment.
Not sure how you can determine what everyone needs... some of us have very long arms. I have to suck up a 7" handguard on my duty rifle and it sucks. Given a choice I'd never go shorter than 13, and prefer 15 (bbl permitting of course). The only time I'd WANT a 10" handguard is if the rifle has an 11.5" bbl.
Can I? Yes. Will I? No. We all prefer what we prefer, but that doesn't mean that it is a MUST HAVE. Point being is that many of the modern fighting guns have 7"-9" rail systems and they don't seem to have slowed down the good guys from killing bad guys.
As long as the rail is long enough to fit the accessory you need on it (light, laser, VG, etc) then you are good and everything else is somewhere between gravy and overkill.
For me, longer rails equal extra cost and weight and I have to always ask, what did I gain from this?
While you might be a world class competition shooter that notices a .05 difference in your split times when going from a 10" rail to a 13" rail, the average guy won't. This means that the rail "masturbation" game is similar to the optics and trigger game where people believe that an EOTech or a 4LBS single stage trigger will allow them to become an awesome shooter.
It is always the Indian and never the arrow.
C4
Good God Fred, I have never seen such whining among gun guys in my life.
Now I'm not a LAV, Costa, EAG, HSP fanboy but they have their rifles just like I have mine. They are top instructors in the current industry. Each of their rifles focus and project the equipment they favor in their training. Just like mine is set up for the way I teach and train.
If you don't like it don't get it, period. One fella already quoted you using all the same parts at around $1800. Hell build your own rifle your own way and stamp your favorite Black Ops combat card logo on it and call it your special end of the univers, the Sith are coming, no safe queen of my doble wide trailer boom stick.
Now I'm not a fan of all colors or stampings of companies names out there but Jesus the gun has, BCM, Vltor, Geissle, Magpul, Inforce, B5, stamped all over it so does the little "Jack" stamp on the port side upper really put it over the top??? Go to Wally World and get you a can of Mexican Chrome Krylon and cover it up or re-cerakote or hydro dip it in your favorite.
I've put 10k, 15k, 20k, 30k plus through standard barrels and CHF barrels and trust me you'll never know the difference because half will never shoot it enough to reach that threshold and the other half will put 500 rounds through it and sell it.
Looks like a good gun Paulie. Don't listen to the haters they're there for entertainment.
Thank you.
How does this compare to an SR15 for a similar price? I would imagine it is softer shooting since KAC changed gas port size.
Overall I think it looks like a good deal, and like others have said, when you put it together yourself there is almost no cost savings and in reality it could actually cost more to DIY. This is how I feel about the SR15 also. But the KAC may have a advantage/disadvantage with the proprietary parts.
I think you also get a $200 discount at HSP classes, so it's actually saving quite a bit of money by buying the rifle packaged together.
To bad BCM does not ship to CA, nor did the one dealer with a EAG carbine that I wanted. I bet you can find someone to put a bullet button on it for you, G&R Tactical, I think. But this rifle would be on my Christmas wishlist if I did not live in CA, eh I will be moving soon enough.
crowkiller
12-10-12, 18:38
You won't find a fan of the 13" rail with me (just too long and too heavy).
10"-11" is MORE than enough "rail-estate" for everyones needs IMHO.
C4
Ill split the difference with y'all and say 12" is my favorite length whether a FSP cut out in a carbine or a over a low profile gas block I like a X300 ultra at the 12 o clock position. My guns are 16" barrels so I can see where a 11" rail will work as good and save weight on a 14.5" barrel.
Not sure how you can determine what everyone needs... some of us have very long arms. I have to suck up a 7" handguard on my duty rifle and it sucks. Given a choice I'd never go shorter than 13, and prefer 15 (bbl permitting of course). The only time I'd WANT a 10" handguard is if the rifle has an 11.5" bbl.
Ditto. 12 is even too short for me
It is always the Indian and never the arrow.
C4
Ain't that the truth
To bad BCM does not ship to CA, nor did the one dealer with a EAG carbine that I wanted. I bet you can find someone to put a bullet button on it for you, G&R Tactical, I think. But this rifle would be on my Christmas wishlist if I did not live in CA, eh I will be moving soon enough.
Just order it through grant like you said. Same difference as going through BCM basically
GUNSLINGER733
12-10-12, 19:39
Grant
When will you have some available?
Grant
When will you have some available?
I am wondering the same, though it will be a game to get them before they are out of stock, we may have a 5 minute window. :D
GUNSLINGER733
12-10-12, 19:48
Lol. They'll sell out in a day probably.
Can I? Yes. Will I? No. We all prefer what we prefer, but that doesn't mean that it is a MUST HAVE. Point being is that many of the modern fighting guns have 7"-9" rail systems and they don't seem to have slowed down the good guys from killing bad guys.
As long as the rail is long enough to fit the accessory you need on it (light, laser, VG, etc) then you are good and everything else is somewhere between gravy and overkill.
For me, longer rails equal extra cost and weight and I have to always ask, what did I gain from this?
While you might be a world class competition shooter that notices a .05 difference in your split times when going from a 10" rail to a 13" rail, the average guy won't. This means that the rail "masturbation" game is similar to the optics and trigger game where people believe that an EOTech or a 4LBS single stage trigger will allow them to become an awesome shooter.
It is always the Indian and never the arrow.
C4
lol! No, you can't. And you shouldn't try. Not even the Tier 1 trainers can say what "everyone needs" as shooters come in too many sizes/builds.
You're sounding dangerously like the police brass who want a one size fits all approach to weapons. You're saying that because we have used 7" handguards successfully that it must mean no progress or improvements can be made. Using that logic, we don't "need" handguards because we can hold the magwell.
As far as being able to fit accessories, that's a perfect example. Can I put a light on my duty rifles 7" railed forearm? Sure. Does trying to activate that light bring my support hand back even further towards my body? It does. That's why you see Mossie Tactics mounts, Thorntail mounts, FSB rail mounts, etc. if we are pushing the accessories beyond the rail you say is good enough for killing bad guys, I'd call that a clue.
Am I willing to make that sacrifice to have a SBR? I am. The reduced OAL gives me advantages that make the trade-off worth it for me. But on a 16" rifle, having 6" of bbl sticking beyond the handguard doesn't make sense to me. If I post up on cover I don't want to have to have that much of my rifle beyond cover. The other choice is a shift in POI because of pressure on the barrel.
I completely agree the shooter is more important than the weapon... But that doesn't mean my needs are the same as my coworkers. That doesn't mean we should limit options. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what they need, much less "everyone."
Once the machine and tooling is paid off?
There are very few cold hammer forging machines in the world and they have been running for decades. With all the barrels currently being made, they've likely amortized the machinery, dies, computer controls and programming. If Remington can spec CHF barrels to save money, why do CHF AR barrels cost more?
The point is, folks are hollering for a CHF barrel without knowing what they are asking for. Some are willing to pay more for a barrel made using a more economical method of manufacture thinking they'll get a more durable barrel. But how much more durable? Does anyone know how much more use will be gotten from a rifle with a CHF barrel over a button rifled barrel? Or a cut barrel? I have never seen such numbers. There is only speculation that the denser steel from the CHF process (button rifling has the same affect on the steel by the way) resists wear longer. It makes sense, but where's the data?
Again, why should we pay more for a barrel that costs less to make?
lol! No, you can't. And you shouldn't try. Not even the Tier 1 trainers can say what "everyone needs" as shooters come in too many sizes/builds.
It is important to differentiate between WANT and NEED. These are two different animals. Do I NEED a rail in order to shoot an AR? No.
You're sounding dangerously like the police brass who want a one size fits all approach to weapons. You're saying that because we have used 7" handguards successfully that it must mean no progress or improvements can be made. Using that logic, we don't "need" handguards because we can hold the magwell.
Not in the least. People assign this "MUST HAVE" size limit to a rail length and just think it is funny.
Do I NEED a rail longer than 7 inches? No. Do I WANT a rail longer than 7 inches? Yes.
As far as being able to fit accessories, that's a perfect example. Can I put a light on my duty rifles 7" railed forearm? Sure. Does trying to activate that light bring my support hand back even further towards my body? It does. That's why you see Mossie Tactics mounts, Thorntail mounts, FSB rail mounts, etc. if we are pushing the accessories beyond the rail you say is good enough for killing bad guys, I'd call that a clue.
Am I willing to make that sacrifice to have a SBR? I am. The reduced OAL gives me advantages that make the trade-off worth it for me. But on a 16" rifle, having 6" of bbl sticking beyond the handguard doesn't make sense to me. If I post up on cover I don't want to have to have that much of my rifle beyond cover. The other choice is a shift in POI because of pressure on the barrel.
I completely agree the shooter is more important than the weapon... But that doesn't mean my needs are the same as my coworkers. That doesn't mean we should limit options. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what they need, much less "everyone."
I don't think anyone is trying to "limit" you, but simply that a long rail is a WANT and not a need and 10" of rail is MORE than enough to get the job done. That is the point.
C4
Grant
When will you have some available?
Yes. In fact, I am willing to bet that we will get the very first ones available.
C4
Yes. In fact, I am willing to bet that we will get the very first ones available.
C4
With the bullet button option?
There are very few cold hammer forging machines in the world and they have been running for decades. With all the barrels currently being made, they've likely amortized the machinery, dies, computer controls and programming. If Remington can spec CHF barrels to save money, why do CHF AR barrels cost more?
The point is, folks are hollering for a CHF barrel without knowing what they are asking for. Some are willing to pay more for a barrel made using a more economical method of manufacture thinking they'll get a more durable barrel. But how much more durable? Does anyone know how much more use will be gotten from a rifle with a CHF barrel over a button rifled barrel? Or a cut barrel? I have never seen such numbers. There is only speculation that the denser steel from the CHF process (button rifling has the same affect on the steel by the way) resists wear longer. It makes sense, but where's the data?
Again, why should we pay more for a barrel that costs less to make?
There is a little more to it than just the more durable barrel, which is a point a might even concede might have an imperceptible difference.
Usually tolerances are better and more consistent with the CHF process. Additionally, there is less chance for human error, especially when the chamber is done as part of the CHF process in addition to the bore and rifling. By starting with a negative of the barrel everything is in proper alignment.
With the bullet button option?
We can install a BB onto any BCM AR.
C4
We can install a BB onto any BCM AR.
C4
COOL! You may very well be shipping one of those rifles to my FFL :)
polymorpheous
12-10-12, 21:18
Great.
I wake up to get ready for my shift and this thread has seriously gone derp a derp.
Very nice looking rifle. If I had the money is be all over it.
wetidlerjr
12-11-12, 03:17
There are three or four threads on TOS about this. The one I started seems to be going OK by TOS standards. More than one poster (on TOS) thinks an SSA should have been included as well as a 12 inch rail. I can see their point about both. I think that, at least, a G2S should have been stock and a proper length rail would have been easy to include also.
Other than the above, it looks like a great rifle even if I can't justify my buying one. Maybe in the future...
There are three or four threads on TOS about this. The one I started seems to be going OK by TOS standards. More than one poster (on TOS) thinks an SSA should have been included as well as a 12 inch rail. I can see their point about both. I think that, at least, a G2S should have been stock and a proper length rail would have been easy to include also.
Other than the above, it looks like a great rifle even if I can't justify my buying one. Maybe in the future...
While I agree (especially on the SSA), we have to remember that there is a person behind this gun and he likes what he likes. If you agree with his choices, you will love this gun, if you don't, you won't.
C4
wetidlerjr
12-11-12, 07:16
While I agree (especially on the SSA), we have to remember that there is a person behind this gun and he likes what he likes. If you agree with his choices, you will love this gun, if you don't, you won't.
C4
No doubt and I don't have a problem with that. If he wasn't behind it, anyone could do a "no name" special. Wait! We can do that now by making A la carte choices on any site (like yours!). The "big names" do have the advantage of getting the goodies made of unobtainium like the BCM comp and Geissele rails.
No doubt and I don't have a problem with that. If he wasn't behind it, anyone could do a "no name" special. Wait! We can do that now by making A la carte choices on any site (like yours!). The "big names" do have the advantage of getting the goodies made of unobtainium like the BCM comp and Geissele rails.
True. Personally, I think the gun is setup well. The rail is one of the best on the market, the trigger is highly reliable and has a clean pull. The B5 Bravo stock is probably the best stock on the market today (IMHO) and of course the BCM gun (which I think is right up there with Colt).
The other advantage is that you get a factory built gun (which is a selling point for many).
C4
Very nice looking rifle. If I had the money is be all over it.
I used to have money, then I traded it for women, liquor, cars, motorcycles, and guns.
While I agree (especially on the SSA), we have to remember that there is a person behind this gun and he likes what he likes. If you agree with his choices, you will love this gun, if you don't, you won't.
C4This should have been the second post. You see this with cars, watches, golf clubs, etc. it is the famous person’s preference, and it usually comes with something you can’t get to force the fence sitters to buy it, that’s called good marketing.
True. Personally, I think the gun is setup well. The rail is one of the best on the market, the trigger is highly reliable and has a clean pull. The B5 Bravo stock is probably the best stock on the market today (IMHO) and of course the BCM gun (which I think is right up there with Colt).
The other advantage is that you get a factory built gun (which is a selling point for many).
C4
Grant, you like this rail? I've not had the pleasure of seeing one in person but I thought it was said here it was heavy.
what in particular do you like about it?..
Grant, you like this rail? I've not had the pleasure of seeing one in person but I thought it was said here it was heavy.
what in particular do you like about it?..
For the sake of comparison, the MK1 13" rail is 1lb 4oz. A DD 12.0 Lite Rail is 16oz. This means that they are basically the same weight (when you figure in the extra inch in length. So I wouldn't consider the rail "heavy" in comparison to other popular rails.
What I like is the look and feel of it. It has a very refined look to it that few rails can match. On top of that, the barrel nut and anti-rotational system is well thought out. In particular, the long barrel. This reduces the amount of flex that you normally see in rail over 10 inches in length.
C4
Grant is right the rifle is set up very nicely for a person who wants a fighting rifle that is gtg from the box. Would some of us want a CHF barrel of course, the trigger was more than likely selected with an leo in mind that isn't allowed to change the trigger on his duty gun. It's an over all well put together rifle and remember it's a BCM so you can't go wrong.
I used to have money, then I traded it for women, liquor, cars, motorcycles, and guns.
Lol. Mine is tied up in sending kids to college. Maybe once I get the boy through his engineering degree he will reward his dear old dad with a nice fighting rifle.
I do think this is a well thought out weapon. And if I find the funds for it, I would certainly purchase it. At the moment, I'm just trying to finish my KISS AR build.
Magic_Salad0892
12-11-12, 10:15
I like the rail. That thing is all kinds of sweet.
Doc. Holiday
12-11-12, 11:04
It's decently priced as well! I'm interested!
For the sake of comparison, the MK1 13" rail is 1lb 4oz. A DD 12.0 Lite Rail is 16oz. This means that they are basically the same weight (when you figure in the extra inch in length.
Math????
The DD is a quad rail, the Giessele is a modular. So add a small and large rail section to the Giessele to better compare and...
DD 15.3oz/12" == 1.28oz/in
G 21.5oz/13" == 1.65oz/in
Theoretical DD 13" is 1.28*13" == 16.6oz
... So 5oz difference is not "basically the same as". Although I won't argue it's a big difference or even all that noticeable, I will argue use of the word "same".
Imo it's null and void when one looks at the base 13.5" NSR weight of 11oz.... Shows just how unnecessary the Giessele is.
The geissele rail provides strong anti rotation without a pin the upper receiver.
The NSR is a great rail but it does not have any anti rotation features built into the rail.
If your only goal is too have the lightest weight rifle possible, and a cpl. ozs. actually matters to you over strength, rigidity, anti-rotation design, and increased heat dissipation properties; then your right.....the Geissele rail is so overboard, and perhaps the NSR or another rail is the one for you.
Math????
The DD is a quad rail, the Giessele is a modular. So add a small and large rail section to the Giessele to better compare and...
DD 15.3oz/12" == 1.28oz/in
G 21.5oz/13" == 1.65oz/in
Theoretical DD 13" is 1.28*13" == 16.6oz
... So 5oz difference is not "basically the same as". Although I won't argue it's a big difference or even all that noticeable, I will argue use of the word "same".
Imo it's null and void when one looks at the base 13.5" NSR weight of 11oz.... Shows just how unnecessary the Giessele is.
Yes, I understand the weight (assuming you ADD the rails). Most people will add either none to one small one for a VG or a light. You are stuck with the rails on a traditional rail like the DD (even though you don't use 95% of them).
I am a fan of the NSR, but it represents the LIGHTEST a rail can be. The Geissele rail, IMHO, is made to a .Mil requirement and is they weight that it is. The consumer might not want that heavy duty of a rail (and that is of course their choice).
C4
Before anyone says another thing about anti-rotation...
A. the NSR does have that if you were to drill a hole (drilling holes saves even more weight!! ha, joke,relax)
B. Show me an NSR rail that has rotated.
Grant is right, the NSR and Giessele are different applications in theory. If the mil really needs a stronger rail than the NSR that's a valid point. I can only assume the Giessele is stronger, but I'm pretty sure no one else could prove that right now.
If this rifle was to be sold to military, sure the heavy rail might be better, but this is civilian rifle with a heavy rail, makes no sense to me. But... It sure does look pretty!
Wow, there is some innovation in that product. Looks great.
Before anyone says another thing about anti-rotation...
A. the NSR does have that if you were to drill a hole (drilling holes saves even more weight!! ha, joke,relax)
B. Show me an NSR rail that has rotated.
Grant is right, the NSR and Giessele are different applications in theory. If the mil really needs a stronger rail than the NSR that's a valid point. I can only assume the Giessele is stronger, but I'm pretty sure no one else could prove that right now.
If this rifle was to be sold to military, sure the heavy rail might be better, but this is civilian rifle with a heavy rail, makes no sense to me. But... It sure does look pretty!
Prove that the Geissele is stronger?? Have you ever held one in your hand? Let's just say that I could beat someone to death with it and there would not be a dent on it. It is basically CRUSH PROOF!
Again, the rail is not "heavy", it is normal.
C4
Prove that the Geissele is stronger?? Have you ever held one in your hand? Let's just say that I could beat someone to death with it and there would not be a dent on it. It is basically CRUSH PROOF!
Again, the rail is not "heavy", it is normal.
I have not yet beaten anyone to death with any AR-15 rail. Not sure how well any of them would do in that test. Given the Giessele weighs more, yes, I suspect it would be better for beating someone to death with. Agreed :)
With 2 accessory rails, it's 5oz heavier or over 25% heavier than a full quad rail at the same length. At best I'd say it's Normal Plus.. If you look at the entire rail market it might not be excessive, but compared to other options it's sort of a piggy. Just my opinion of course.
I have not yet beaten anyone to death with any AR-15 rail. Not sure how well any of them would do in that test. Given the Giessele weighs more, yes, I suspect it would be better for beating someone to death with. Agreed :)
With 2 accessory rails, it's 5oz heavier or over 25% heavier than a full quad rail at the same length. At best I'd say it's Normal Plus.. If you look at the entire rail market it might not be excessive, but compared to other options it's sort of a piggy. Just my opinion of course.
I am guessing that you have never handled one of these rails, nor do you know what anything weighs. Two of the small rails (which are the ones that someone would use) are not 5 ounces.
C4
I am guessing that you have never handled one of these rails, nor do you know what anything weighs. Two of the small rails (which are the ones that someone would use) are not 5 ounces.
C4
Back up there buddy... I've had plenty of rails in hand and on the scale. DDs, KAC, Mega monolithics, Rainier/Evo, LaRue, YHM (yuck), Troys, Noveske, every thing I can think of except Midwest and Giessele. I wouldn't go tossing around that "you don't know that" stick so quickly.
Giessele weights from here: http://www.ar15news.com/2012/07/13/new-geissele-automatics-super-modular-rail-smr/ and here http://swfa.com/Geissele-15-Super-Modular-Rail-MK1-P57789.aspx
(the note on those sites about that being the weight MINUS the barrel nut can't be correct can they? No one would list the weight as 20.2oz MINUS a part you took off right? Right? Does the rail actually weight 20.2 + stock barrel nut??? I'll figure it doesn't, although it sure seems like it might...)
Giessele's 13" is at least 20.2oz , add .82 for a large and .46 for a small rail and that's 21.5oz. That's a rail that's 95% heavier than the 13.5" NSR (granted with no rails on it, couldn't find weights for those). And at least 27% heavier than a hypthetical DD 13" LITE if it existed (but not really because that's factoring the steel barrel nut also growing in size by averaging both together).
So yes, do the math yourself, it's a 5oz difference between a full DD quad rail and the Giessele rail with a large and small rail attached. This are just rationalist numbers of course, but I checked the math, you should confirm it in case I'm making a mistake somewhere. I'm not arguing 5oz is a deal breaker, just saying that rail is a little heavier than it seems like it needs to be.
The Giessele rail MAY be "tougher" than a NSR rail or even the DD Lite rails, but it's heavier than both and the user would have to decided if they want that extra weight. Judging by all those broken rail threads/photos on this site (almost none) you really aren't getting anything practical for the difference in wieght. That's my point here.
Wow!
I request the mods allow me the ability to permanently ban people at my discretion for 3 days!
Just so sick of people majoring in the minors...
How did a new product announcement from a reputable company and two of the best guys in the business turn into pages of mental masturbation and bickering. Oh the rail is an inch too short, oh it is an oz too heavy, oh it's the wrong colour. **** off and go weigh some rails or something! Geeezus!
Great looking rifle, I suggested it to a friend with the view that he also take advantage of the training class credit with Haley, as a great way to enter the AR market.
Well, once this rifle is out there in the public, it won't be too long before we see them in the AR Pictures Forum with a different rail, trigger group, light mount, stock, paint job, etc. Some people will be satisfied with what it came with, some won't. It helps keep the business in business!
ROUTEMICHIGAN
12-11-12, 16:14
Official spokespersons changing around, new products, what company is in bed with who....
Much ado about nothing.
Still waiting for their comp to come out.
Pray that it is not an across the board price increase. Pray that it is not a constant "Out Of Stock" listing on their website.
+1... another "signature" gun. The LAV, Costa-- and now, Haley. 'cept for the BCM comp (will we ever actually see these "in stock" for sale?) and the Geissele rail and fancy finish/graphics, not sure what the big deal is. My BCM middy pretty much has the same substantive parts in it. Nice gun though and I'm sure the fanboys will rush out to make them "Out of Stock" and make those companies money-- but hardly a game changer IMHO.
Back up there buddy... I've had plenty of rails in hand and on the scale. DDs, KAC, Mega monolithics, Rainier/Evo, LaRue, YHM (yuck), Troys, Noveske, every thing I can think of except Midwest and Giessele. I wouldn't go tossing around that "you don't know that" stick so quickly.
Giessele weights from here: http://www.ar15news.com/2012/07/13/new-geissele-automatics-super-modular-rail-smr/ and here http://swfa.com/Geissele-15-Super-Modular-Rail-MK1-P57789.aspx
(the note on those sites about that being the weight MINUS the barrel nut can't be correct can they? No one would list the weight as 20.2oz MINUS a part you took off right? Right? Does the rail actually weight 20.2 + stock barrel nut??? I'll figure it doesn't, although it sure seems like it might...)
Giessele's 13" is at least 20.2oz , add .82 for a large and .46 for a small rail and that's 21.5oz. That's a rail that's 95% heavier than the 13.5" NSR (granted with no rails on it, couldn't find weights for those). And at least 27% heavier than a hypthetical DD 13" LITE if it existed (but not really because that's factoring the steel barrel nut also growing in size by averaging both together).
So yes, do the math yourself, it's a 5oz difference between a full DD quad rail and the Giessele rail with a large and small rail attached. This are just rationalist numbers of course, but I checked the math, you should confirm it in case I'm making a mistake somewhere. I'm not arguing 5oz is a deal breaker, just saying that rail is a little heavier than it seems like it needs to be.
The Giessele rail MAY be "tougher" than a NSR rail or even the DD Lite rails, but it's heavier than both and the user would have to decided if they want that extra weight. Judging by all those broken rail threads/photos on this site (almost none) you really aren't getting anything practical for the difference in wieght. That's my point here.
M4C is about first hand info. You have never even handled one of these rails and really are just making assumptions about things that you don't know.
Everyone that has used these rails think they are awesome and I imagine that trend will continue as they become more available. If you don't like them, that is fine, but realize they are one of the best rails made today and have already been adopted by the Military.
C4
Freedoooom
12-11-12, 17:20
M4C is about first hand info. You have never even handled one of these rails and really are just making assumptions about things that you don't know.
Everyone that has used these rails think they are awesome and I imagine that trend will continue as they become more available. If you don't like them, that is fine, but realize they are one of the best rails made today and have already been adopted by the Military.
C4
Where's your first hand info the weights he is saying is incorrect?
Where's your first hand info the weights he is saying is incorrect?
If you read a few pages back, I already listed the weight of the 13" MK1 and yes, the weight listed for the small rails is incorrect.
Edited to add, I have no idea why people are so fascinated with 5 ounces. Am I missing something here?
C4
sinlessorrow
12-11-12, 17:28
M4C is about first hand info. You have never even handled one of these rails and really are just making assumptions about things that you don't know.
Everyone that has used these rails think they are awesome and I imagine that trend will continue as they become more available. If you don't like them, that is fine, but realize they are one of the best rails made today and have already been adopted by the Military.
C4
I tough the HK416 version was adopted? I can see the weight on that since it already has a heavy rail. Were these adopted by someone else?
Also the 13″=18.4oz and Accy rails are.82 and .46 oz.
juliomorris
12-11-12, 17:30
I'm screwed I went to show my wife the pics so she would know what to get me for my 45th Bday and she decided I can buy one for myself but after I buy her one.
I tough the HK416 version was adopted? I can see the weight on that since it already has a heavy rail. Were these adopted by someone else?
Also the 13″=18.4oz and Accy rails are.82 and .46 oz.
Correct. They adopted the 416 rail.
C4
Magic_Salad0892
12-11-12, 17:31
If you read a few pages back, I already listed the weight of the 13" MK1 and yes, the weight listed for the small rails is incorrect.
Edited to add, I have no idea why people are so fascinated with 5 ounces. Am I missing something here?
C4
5oz may not sound like much, but it's the difference between a rail, and a rail with a SureFire light for almost the same weight.
However, I'm with you on every point.
Also... which military units adopted the Gieselle rail? The DI ones? Or the one for the 416?
NoveskeFan
12-11-12, 17:35
Edited to add, I have no idea why people are so fascinated with 5 ounces. Am I missing something here?
C4
That 5 ounces might make the difference in their split times or how much ammo they can carry:rolleyes: I'll be watching your site for when these become available.
5oz may not sound like much, but it's the difference between a rail, and a rail with a SureFire light for almost the same weight.
However, I'm with you on every point.
Also... which military units adopted the Gieselle rail? The DI ones? Or the one for the 416?
What is funny is that when I made the case that an 11" rail rails saved weight (over their preferred 13" or 15" rail), they laughed at the extra weight. Then I have another group of people that says 5 ounces is a deal killer. :rolleyes:
There is just no way to please everyone I guess.
C4
That 5 ounces might make the difference in their split times or how much ammo they can carry:rolleyes: I'll be watching your site for when these become available.
Right you are. Its all about the split times. :D
C4
Magic_Salad0892
12-11-12, 17:49
What is funny is that when I made the case that an 11" rail rails saved weight (over their preferred 13" or 15" rail), they laughed at the extra weight. Then I have another group of people that says 5 ounces is a deal killer. :rolleyes:
There is just no way to please everyone I guess.
C4
I'm on your side, Grant.
But in my opinion, it's more about "economy of weight", as in "what equipment can I use that will equal the same weight, for potentially better performance?" (an extreme example would be a 6970 + Aimpoint + Sling + loaded 30 round magazine + light vs. a loaded HK91 with nothing on it.)
That said, I like the Gieselle rail design, am fine with the weight, and I really like the barrel nut they use.
Going lighter isn't always better. I have a friend (who happens to have a blue colored name on this forum) that built a rifle that was so light that he had to shoot slower because the rifle was not staying on target due to muzzle rise. A little heavier rifle and viola! Back to hammering the 1 to 5 and half drills.
I think the Jack set up is very well thought out and will do very well. There are things that I would do differently but that is why there are 1000 flavors of ice cream.
I would have used a longer rail and put the light at 12 O'clock. But that's just me.
As for the Geissle vs NSR rails, they are not in the same category. I have used and installed several of both. They both serve a different purpose quite well. As far as durability and stiffness, it's the Geissele hands down. There is no better option for what BCM and HSP had in mind for this rifle.
I'm not even sure why I've been following this thread or why I'm posting in it, other than the fact that it's like watching a train wreck, but HOLY CRAP, PEOPLE this is all extremely simple!
If you don't like the rifle, don't see the value, don't like the components, don't like the guy behind it, ect.....THEN DON'T BUY IT!
If I were new to the AR scene or just getting into QUALITY brands or just didn't want to go through all the hastle of sourcing all the components for a build, then I would be seriously interested in this rifle. If this isn't you, then don't waste your time on it.
Also, the argument about 5 ounces is utter crap. If you can't handle an extra 5 ounces (much less even notice it!) then hit the damn gym instead of sitting on your fat ass crying about it. You should be anyways!
I did a Falla Adv. Carbine course in July and have never been as fatigued by my TEN pound AR in my life. It was 100+ degrees, not much rest at all, low on food and water, and for those who have taken a Falla course, you know he likes to keep you in the High Ready and High Port position for a LONG time...and he smiles while making you do it too! I didn't come away from that course saying "Damn, I wish my rifle was lighter"...instead it was "Damn, I'm out of shape!"
Moral of the story is, get your minds right and be MEN.
I'm not even sure why I've been following this thread or why I'm posting in it, other than the fact that it's like watching a train wreck, but HOLY CRAP, PEOPLE this is all extremely simple!
If you don't like the rifle, don't see the value, don't like the components, don't like the guy behind it, ect.....THEN DON'T BUY IT!
If I were new to the AR scene or just getting into QUALITY brands or just didn't want to go through all the hastle of sourcing all the components for a build, then I would be seriously interested in this rifle. If this isn't you, then don't waste your time on it.
Also, the argument about 5 ounces is utter crap. If you can't handle an extra 5 ounces (much less even notice it!) then hit the damn gym instead of sitting on your fat ass crying about it. You should be anyways!
I did a Falla Adv. Carbine course in July and have never been as fatigued by my TEN pound AR in my life. It was 100+ degrees, not much rest at all, low on food and water, and for those who have taken a Falla course, you know he likes to keep you in the High Ready and High Port position for a LONG time...and he smiles while making you do it too! I didn't come away from that course saying "Damn, I wish my rifle was lighter"...instead it was "Damn, I'm out of shape!"
Moral of the story is, get your minds right and be MEN.
yeah i havent taken his course but after spending a whole day doing drills when I havent in a LONG time... i was shocked at how out of shape i was. i'm on the road a lot so dont get to work out as much as id like, so now i keep a couple light dumbbells (a 5 & 10lb) in the car to work on rotator cuff and deltoid isometric and stability exercises. you would be shocked at how much it helps! and make sure i get to the gym when i am home or at a hotel large enough to have a gym
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