View Full Version : Top 3 AR MFG Non Custom
Title says all, which three current AR MFG would you list from best to lesser best. Nothing custom, I am talking about out of the box "bulletproof" or close to.
Noveske, BCM, Knights Armament.
In no particular order. All 3 make accurate and reliable weapons that only require an optic, sling, and white light of choice to be pretty much perfect out of the box.
Colt
Noveske
Daniel Defense
*BCM (*If you can find a comple carbine from them)
uncle money bags
12-10-12, 02:42
BCM
Daniel Defense
LMT
Out of the box. Colt, Daniel Defense and BCM.
olympic
bushmaster
dpms
I thought he said top three...this is the bottom three
Define best. Different rifles for different roles for different people.
It would seem that his post is pretty clear. An out of the box carbine for all around use that works.
Define best. Different rifles for different roles for different people.
HardLuck682
12-10-12, 06:03
Seems there is a 'top 7' listed when you look at everyone's list, but in everyone's top 3, Bravo Company is always listed.
...sent from my mind, using telepathy!
But what does he mean about non custom. Would that rule out DD, Noveske, and the like that come with quad rails? That might take LMT's MRP out also.
Out of the box. Colt, Daniel Defense and BCM.
This seems to be the pretty standard response, and I would generally agree; however, I wonder why Noveske and KAC couldnt/shouldnt be in "the top 3."
It would seem that his post is pretty clear. An out of the box carbine for all around use that works.
Are we factoring in price? Does all around include hunting? It's fair to assume that we're talking about a combat gun on M4C, but "all around" still leaves plenty up to interpretation. All around could be a patrol rifle for one person and an HD gun for another.
As it currently is, we're really just listing out some of the better brands. Both Colt and KAC are great out of the box, but they're pretty different guns.
Colt, DD, and BCM.
KAC, Noveske and LMT too but generally you will pay more for those just because they like to force you into purchasing a $400 rail with it, other fancy accessories, unique lowers, etc.
The real top 3 is Noveske, KAC, and LaRue. However DD, LMT, Colt and BCM are all just as "bulletproof"
snakedoctor
12-10-12, 08:50
Noveske
LaRue Tactical
JP Rifles
Hands down it is:
Colt
Noveske
LaRue Tactical
Mauser KAR98K
12-10-12, 09:52
Noveske
LMT
BCM
Colt
DD
BCM
Honorable mention LMT
ETA: wouldn't knight's gas system, and larue be considered custom? They both make quality stuff, not saying anything bad about them.
As has been said, and in alphabetical order:
BCM
Colt
Daniel Defense
Noveske, KAC, and Larue are boutique manufacturers and so I wouldn't really put them in the mainstream bunch.
As has been said, and in alphabetical order:
BCM
Colt
Daniel Defense
Noveske, KAC, and Larue are boutique manufacturers and so I wouldn't really put them in the mainstream bunch.
Completely agree.
sinlessorrow
12-10-12, 10:18
This seems to be the pretty standard response, and I would generally agree; however, I wonder why Noveske and KAC couldnt/shouldnt be in "the top 3."
They could be, but are generally specialty rifles and have a high price tag.
JohnnyNumbers
12-10-12, 10:31
I'm going to look at it from a different perspective.
Top 3 bare bones rifles with out of the box quality and no un-needed add ons.
1. Colt
2. BCM
3. LMT
Nothing against Daniel Defense...but do they offer a model without a rail? To me, that is an accessory that should be left to the consumer to decide whether he wants one or not.
I thought he said top three...this is the bottom three
Just joking.
For the $$ it is hard if not impossible to beat in no particular order
Colt, DD, BCM
For a SHTF rifle, if I were packing on duty(which I do), or going into combat these would be my 3.
KAC would be up there as well but are a little pricey but are excellent. Had little experience with Noveske, LaRue(although have used their rails and VFG and they are excellent).
As has been said, and in alphabetical order:
BCM
Colt
Daniel Defense
Noveske, KAC, and Larue are boutique manufacturers and so I wouldn't really put them in the mainstream bunch.
Tough to argue against this. That being said Ill reach for my KAC everytime. :D
Colt
FN
BCM/DD
Noveske, KAC, and Larue while making phenomenal rifles are not particularly mainstream and as another user said qualify more as boutique manufacturers. Also, my choice of FN will probably raise ire, but he said AR not M4 style and FN along with Colt (And now Remington) are the only ones who have the TDP and as such build to mil-spec.
sinlessorrow
12-10-12, 11:07
Colt
FN
BCM/DD
Noveske, KAC, and Larue while making phenomenal rifles are not particularly mainstream and as another user said qualify more as boutique manufacturers. Also, my choice of FN will probably raise ire, but he said AR not M4 style and FN along with Colt (And now Remington) are the only ones who have the TDP and as such build to mil-spec.
Colt owns the TDP for both the M16 and M4.
The GAO upheld Colts protest so Remington no longer has the TDP as it is going up for rebid again. That said neither Remington nor FNH can/could sell rifles using the TDP to the civilian market.
Nothing against Daniel Defense...but do they offer a model without a rail? To me, that is an accessory that should be left to the consumer to decide whether he wants one or not.
I know they used to offer rail-less complete carbines in their "VX" line.
I think colt and DD offer the best overall package for the price. You can get the moe colt 6920 for less than $1100 with 2 pmags, some cleaning supplies, a sling, and vertical foregrip.
With Daniel defense, their v3 rifle is hard to beat for around $1500. Mid length, top notch rail, rear sight, rail covers, pmags, hard case, and foregrip.
BCM obvious makes quality stuff, but I've had trouble tracking down the complete models that I'm looking for (mid-16 mod 2) so I usually just buy their complete lowers from g&r and BCM uppers directly from them.
So basically my list mirrors others:
Colt
Daniel defense
BCM
Honorable mentions to noveske, Knights, LMT
Colt owns the TDP for both the M16 and M4.
The GAO upheld Colts protest so Remington no longer has the TDP as it is going up for rebid again. That said neither Remington nor FNH can/could sell rifles using the TDP to the civilian market.
Pretty sure Remington has the contract now.
Doc. Holiday
12-10-12, 12:08
Noveske, BCM, POF
GeorgiaBoy
12-10-12, 12:57
Daniel Defense, BCM, Colt.
Hard to pick the top three, as there are several that would qualify. But change the equation to:
"If you had to self outfit quickly, and walk into an unknown situation, what would you buy?"
That makes it easier.... I'd take $1200 - 1300 and buy:
- Colt 6920 OR
- LMT Defender (slightly higher, but more useful rear sight)
Add mags, sling, and an Aimpoint (Pro?) for another $500
DD would be on my list if they still sold their rail-less carbine, or if the budget could stretch to include a rail. (DD M4 V7?? $1400'ish)
My list factors in:
- Known configuration, I know they will work out of the box, no dinking.
- I know I can get them fast, and in many places. And they will all be well nigh identical in quality/performance.
- I don't have to wade through the dozens of "we have the 16" LW upper, but not the gov profile in stock. But if you don't mind a troy rail, we have that one in stock. But only one, better hurry" stuff. From all reports, BCM makes great stuff, but I've never successfully order something from them, nor managed to talk to a live human about ordering.
I'd have added Sabre to the list back in the day. And FN made civvy M4's if available.
No slight to Noveske, KAC carbines, etc, just I do not have 1st hand experience with them, nor are they as available. (have played with KAC 7.62's, don't doubt their quality.
I know this sounds like Colt kool-aid, but I'm becoming more of a KISS mindset, and it's hard to beat the Colt & LMT basic carbines.
I thought he said top three...this is the bottom three
LOL..I think he was being sarcastic..:D
To the OP
1. Colt
2. Daniel
3. BCM
In no particular order. If I couldn't get a Colt 6920 here in Cali it would have been a BCM. I just want the basic carbine. I want to put a A4 featureless rifle together and really have my eye on the BCM for this.
Pretty sure Remington has the contract now.
Remington did win the contract..but Colt gets paid 5% royalties for use of the TDP. Colt protested but in the first phase of the litigation Colt lost. There is still a chance for Colt to get the contract, but its looking more and more of a lost cause.
Dave
Please tell me where to buy an FN rifle. I think if you read the post if also has to be obtanium.
Colt
FN
BCM/DD
Noveske, KAC, and Larue while making phenomenal rifles are not particularly mainstream and as another user said qualify more as boutique manufacturers. Also, my choice of FN will probably raise ire, but he said AR not M4 style and FN along with Colt (And now Remington) are the only ones who have the TDP and as such build to mil-spec.
I guess I'll reinforce the truth.
Money an object:
B, C, D
Money no object:
Knight's Armco
Noveske
H&K (mostly for SBR and suppressed use even if the sights and stock it comes with are unpopular)
crusader377
12-10-12, 13:20
I would say BCM, Colt, and Daniel Defense with the nod probably going to BCM due to having the more possible configurations than Colt and more price competitive than Daniel Defense.
Although still a great company, I think Daniel Defense made an error in halting production of the base models the XV and XVm as well as limiting the availability of basic barrelled uppers. Not everyone wants to spend $1500 on a complete rifle with a rail system nor $900-$1000 on a complete upper. With BCM you can still buy a complete rifle with magpul handguards for around $1050 or $1100 and they still have a selection of upper which even with BCG/Charging handle will only set you back around $600-$650.
I think we should ask, what is the OP's definition of "custom."
sinlessorrow
12-10-12, 13:30
Remington did win the contract..but Colt gets paid 5% royalties for use of the TDP. Colt protested but in the first phase of the litigation Colt lost. There is still a chance for Colt to get the contract, but its looking more and more of a lost cause.
Dave
The Army did not fairly judge the Remington bid when combined with the royalties, this caused Colt to lose. The GAO upheld Colt's protest on this and the Army now has to rebid the contract, and since everyones bid has been made known Colt can easily adjust and win.
I think we should ask, what is the OP's definition of "custom."
My read based on his "out of the box" comment was a rack grade, standard configuration.
But the other interpretation would be to exclude hand lapped, custom fitted, whatever. But would include all the barrel/rail/CH variants, etc.
While my current personal preference is for a LW middie with CHF barrel, there is something to be said for the basic "patrol carbine" M4gery/6920 config. Known quantity, reliable, excellent bang for the buck.
I totalled it up. For $1600 I could walk out the door this afternoon with a: M4 marked 6920, Aimpoint pro with mount, Blueforce or Vickers sling, 6 D&H GI mags with MP followers. Or add $16 and make the mags Magpul non-windowed. Bundle discount offsets tax. All in stock.
Very hard to beat that combo!!!
Since the GAO denied Colts second protest I am pretty sure that the issue is settled and the Army can now proceed to give Remington Defense the go ahead. That's how I understood it anyway.
The Army did not fairly judge the Remington bid when combined with the royalties, this caused Colt to lose. The GAO upheld Colt's protest on this and the Army now has to rebid the contract, and since everyones bid has been made known Colt can easily adjust and win.
Dessert Fox
12-10-12, 14:36
There's too many quality turn-key ARs to narrow it down to only three, IMHO. But, if I had to pick just three, it'd be Colt, LMT, and Daniel Defense in no particular order.
There are quite a few good manufacturers out there right now. I prefer:
BCM
Colt
DD
Good luck.
There's too many quality turn-key ARs to narrow it down to only three, IMHO. But, if I had to pick just three, it'd be Colt, LMT, and Daniel Defense in no particular order.
Good Lord. Somebody did not include BCM in their top 3 of no particular order?? :eek::eek:
For what it's worth I think DD borderlines "custom". To me a "custom" AR is more like Noveske who isn't better quality than BCM, Colt, etc they just make you buy the whole package at once with all kinds of extras. The reality is that the quality is the same as BCM.
I would like to see BCM expand into more calibers and "non mil-spec" options like Melonite barrels, 300BLK uppers, 6.8 uppers, Flared magwell lowers, etc.
noveske,adcor defense,bcm
I doubt that 6.8 will happen because of the whole 6.8 debacle. 300 BLK is possibly an option but my guess is that people are more worried about putting out 5.56 now, rather than a caliber with a current limited market base.
Good Lord. Somebody did not include BCM in their top 3 of no particular order?? :eek::eek:
For what it's worth I think DD borderlines "custom". To me a "custom" AR is more like Noveske who isn't better quality than BCM, Colt, etc they just make you buy the whole package at once with all kinds of extras. The reality is that the quality is the same as BCM.
I would like to see BCM expand into more calibers and "non mil-spec" options like Melonite barrels, 300BLK uppers, 6.8 uppers, Flared magwell lowers, etc.
I don't think there is really such thing as a "custom", like with a 1911. So I am going to take custom to me nonstandard.
I think the best three standard AR manufacturers are:
Daniel Defense
BCM
Noveske (they are all most non standard but really to seem to use mostly mil spec parts or mil spec interchangeable)
I think the best non standard guns/companies are:
Knights Armament Co. (non standard operating system)
Larue Tactical (non standard upper receiver/rail)
sinlessorrow
12-10-12, 15:22
Since the GAO denied Colts second protest I am pretty sure that the issue is settled and the Army can now proceed to give Remington Defense the go ahead. That's how I understood it anyway.
This lays it out pretty well.http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/11/28/gao-denies-latest-colt-m4-protest-could-this-be-it/
So basically we do not know who will get the contract yet.
specopsscout
12-10-12, 15:52
Colt
Noveske <---My current choice.
Knights
I also want to note I purposely left out Colt, the reason is two fold.
One, they are a Union company. I stand against Unions and what they are doing to our country.
BCM, DD, and Noveske are all non-union, according to my research.
Secondly I firmly believe they should not be supported for go way above and beyond to comply with any weapon bans: Sear blocks, odd pin sizes, half moon carriers, and so on.
With BCM and DD I see no reason to buy a Colt.
Support a company that deserves your support, Colt is not one of these. I invite any one on here to "educate" me as to why Colt deserves support more than BCM or DD.
Magic_Salad0892
12-10-12, 15:59
KAC
LMT
Noveske
(Colt, BCM, DD as well.)
RogerinTPA
12-10-12, 16:24
I go with Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense & LMT for great out of the box performance in a nominal price range.
I do consider Noveske and KAC more in the specialized boutique gun category because of the extra features and proprietary parts that goes beyond the TDP, that are built into them, causing them to be almost double the price of the 4 manufacturers I mentioned.
Please tell me where to buy an FN rifle. I think if you read the post if also has to be obtanium.
I wasn't saying he could buy one, though I know how he can get one (All one has to do is sign a little contract). He asked what the best non custom makers were and FN is the present manufacturer of the M16A4 rifle. I included BCM and DD at the bottom but believed FN should be mentioned since they most certainly don't qualify as a boutique manufacturer. Sorry if my intention was missed.
I go with Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense & LMT for great out of the box performance in a nominal price range.
I do consider Noveske and KAC more in the specialized boutique gun category because of the extra features and proprietary parts that goes beyond the TDP, that are built into them, causing them to be almost double the price of the 4 manufacturers I mentioned.
Noveske makes a fantastic mostly "standard" n4 light recce, the non standard parts being the pistol grip, stock, barrel (n4 profile/mid gas/chf/dbl cl), and rear sight. Those same parts are non standard on BCM guns as well, so I see no problem. Both BCM and Noveske offer more "customized" ARs.
I actually think BCM has done an outstanding job with it's non milspec improvements to the platform, namely their pistol grip, charging handle, muzzle device, and gas system. You could even argue their bfh bbl is an improvement on milspec.
RogerinTPA
12-10-12, 17:52
Noveske makes a fantastic mostly "standard" n4 light recce, the non standard parts being the pistol grip, stock, barrel (n4 profile/mid gas/chf/dbl cl), and rear sight. Those same parts are non standard on BCM guns as well, so I see no problem. Both BCM and Noveske offer more "customized" ARs.
Yes I know, but you missed my point. Thanks for sharing though.
Colt
Colt
Colt
I can't think of a reason anyone should buy anything else if they want to open the box of a baseline model and be gtg.
Flame away but bcm, dd, etc... Will never be Colt.
Lewis Machine and Tool
Noveske
Daniel Defense
Well OP, did you tabulate all of the responses and come up with your chosen one for a purchase? Or was this for shits and grins for curiosity's sake? What's next, a poll? :rolleyes:
Yes I know, but you missed my point. Thanks for sharing though.
So what are the extra features and proprietary parts that are built in to the mentioned n4 rifle that cause it to be twice the cost of a bcm? By twice the cost, I mean 15-20% more or so, if that?
I can't think of any proprietary parts that Noveske had that LMT or DD don't also have their own version of.
I can't think of any proprietary parts that Noveske had that LMT or DD don't also have their own version of.
The LMT defender is pretty darn standard, only exception would be the SOPMOD type sight instead of the carry handle. And now the colt's have the new stock, the LMT has their M4 clone.
But the fact we are even having this discussion is fantastic, who'd have thought ten years ago that we would have this many quality AR options, much less the innovations & new configurations!
Using the benchmark of a baseline upper (14.5-16" chrome lined barrel, carbine length gas system, fixed front sight block, handguards) then the 'BCD' brands (BCM, Colt and Daniel Defense) are the way to go. I'd say Colt's recent pricing strategy gives them a slight edge, but I'd be confident with any of these brands.
Noveske gets an honorable mention in this category, but I'm not sure you're getting any more for your money with one of Noveske's basic N4s over any of the BCD offerings. They're great rifles, but I think Noveske really shines once you get away from the basic design. The Noveske/VTAC rifle is one of my favorite configurations.
LMT would've been on my list five years back, but today there's no reason to buy one of their standard offerings over a BCM, Colt or DD. I've owned a LMT and they make a decent rifle, but the BCD companies now hew closer to the MILSPEC and are available at a better price point. LMT's unique offering to the AR market these days is their MRP/MWS platforms.
KAC, LaRue and Noveske are all excellent choices at the higher end. I own both KAC and Noveske and have shot enough LaRue rifles to confidently recommend any of these brands. I'd also add the HK offerings (416/MR556) to this premium group if someone is considering a piston design.
Using the benchmark of a baseline upper (14.5-16" chrome lined barrel, carbine length gas system, fixed front sight block, handguards) then the 'BCD' brands (BCM, Colt and Daniel Defense) are the way to go. I'd say Colt's recent pricing strategy gives them a slight edge, but I'd be confident with any of these brands.
Noveske gets an honorable mention in this category, but I'm not sure you're getting any more for your money with one of Noveske's basic N4s over any of the BCD offerings. They're great rifles, but I think Noveske really shines once you get away from the basic design. The Noveske/VTAC rifle is one of my favorite configurations.
LMT would've been on my list five years back, but today there's no reason to buy one of their standard offerings over a BCM, Colt or DD. I've owned a LMT and they make a decent rifle, but the BCD companies now hew closer to the MILSPEC and are available at a better price point. LMT's unique offering to the AR market these days is their MRP/MWS platforms.
KAC, LaRue and Noveske are all excellent choices at the higher end. I own both KAC and Noveske and have shot enough LaRue rifles to confidently recommend any of these brands. I'd also add the HK offerings (416/MR556) to this premium group if someone is considering a piston design.
Daniel Defense doesn't even sell a "baseline" upper... They all have rails and the cheapest DD upper costs about as much as a complete Colt 6920.
Colt, Love the long heritage
LMT, been around long enough to be tried and true.
BCM, new kid on the block, looking strong, a real threat but still a youngster. Eats his wheaties and looks strong. I like the additional competition.
KAC and Noveske, they are their own category. Awesome stuff, but doesnt really do much different than a Colt or LMT. Both unique to themselves and are great for the market and shooters.
Bushmaster, Stag, CMMG, Rockriver, they are not useless, you can always use them as a bad example .
Pappabear out
In order...
Colt
BCM
Daniel Defense
Bushmaster, Stag, CMMG, Rockriver, they are not useless, you can always use them as a bad example .
Pappabear out
That was one of the most hilarious posts ive read in a while.
Daniel Defense doesn't even sell a "baseline" upper... They all have rails and the cheapest DD upper costs about as much as a complete Colt 6920.
Guess I missed that DD discontinued the XV line. The build your own tool on the DD website lets you come close (fixed front sight block, etc) but you are correct that you cannot select a standard handguard.
You could get a DPMS and with all the money you save you could load it up with Barska optics and lasers mounted on a UTG quadrail.
(just kidding)
Doc. Holiday
12-11-12, 12:03
Wow, you scared me there for a second! :confused:
Noveske
LMT
BCM/Colt
However I recently got a Rock River Elite Comp that comes pretty close in build quality to those previously listed. Much better trigger than those listed and more accurate than than the Colt, BCM, LMT and about the same as my 2 Noveske Afghan's.
Noveske
LaRue Tactical
JP Rifles
and there you have it.
1) Bravo Company
2) Daniel Defense
3) Colt
From what I've seen here it looks like BCM has the most votes, I'm going to say majority rules.
My choices are already covered ad nauseum. No surprise. My question is how many who pick thier 3 have owned the 3 chosen?
My choices are already covered ad nauseum. No surprise. My question is how many who pick thier 3 have owned the 3 chosen?That was always one of my goals. I currently own a complete BCM, a complete Noveske, and a DD upper that lives on a very special lower. I had a complete LaRue, but I sold it (only because I had no need for the configuration and wanted to fund another project). I would recommend any of these manufacturers without hesitation.
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2
Magic_Salad0892
12-13-12, 03:07
Colt
Colt
Colt
I can't think of a reason anyone should buy anything else if they want to open the box of a baseline model and be gtg.
Flame away but bcm, dd, etc... Will never be Colt.
Why's that?
Why's that?
Maybe for the same reason that a Colt will never be a DD, LMT, BCM etc.
I also want to note I purposely left out Colt, the reason is two fold.
One, they are a Union company. I stand against Unions and what they are doing to our country.
BCM, DD, and Noveske are all non-union, according to my research.
Secondly I firmly believe they should not be supported for go way above and beyond to comply with any weapon bans: Sear blocks, odd pin sizes, half moon carriers, and so on.
With BCM and DD I see no reason to buy a Colt.
Support a company that deserves your support, Colt is not one of these. I invite any one on here to "educate" me as to why Colt deserves support more than BCM or DD.
This could not have been said any better.
This could not have been said any better.
I don't agree. Other than the Union point, which I get.... The other pap is old b.s.
Colt now prices their guns competetively, they don't have the PC modifications, and they even have pre-junked up MOE versions for the ARFcom crowd.
Time to let go of the old Colt hang ups.
Noveske
LMT
BCM/Colt
However I recently got a Rock River Elite Comp that comes pretty close in build quality to those previously listed. Much better trigger than those listed and more accurate than than the Colt, BCM, LMT and about the same as my 2 Noveske Afghan's.
My RRA was also accurate, but its a far stretch to say it was near the quality of my Colt or LMT, much less Noveske, that damn rifle fell apart during a class because of poor qc problems of which RRA is infamous for. I would group RRA with Bushmaster and DPMS.
I'm only now starting to come around to Colt. There pricing and commercial markets have improved. I seen a 6920 at Wal-mart the other day that I'm itching to buy, but then I start thinking well I could just get a very nice BCM mid-length upper now with a DD RIS 2 and get the lower later on down the road. I can only shoot 1 at a time any way, I don't mind swapping uppers around for a while.
Check out LMT. Solid as a rock.
olympic
bushmaster
dpms
Somebody just throw a flash bang in the room?
Old BS you say. Colt just removed the "Restricted" roll mark off a year ago and finally went to correct size pins a year or two before that. Not talking ancient history here.
And the restricted roll mark had what effect?
It showed that, at that time in history, Colt could care less about the civilian market...........thats all.
...so it didn't actually do anything at all.
Gotcha.
There are quite a few good manufacturers out there right now. I prefer:
BCM
Colt
DD
Good luck.
I completely agree with this statement.
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