View Full Version : Need Cleaner Alternative to Bullseye for 9mm and .45 Match Loads
I really like the ballistic performance I have been getting using Bullseye for 9mm and .45 loaded to make IDPA power-factor criteria. Accuracy, reliability, recoil managment, etc. have all been great.
The main exception though -- which is huge -- is crud. :bad:
Even after just 100 rounds or so, the guns are heavily trashed. The chamber will get so sooty that brushing out is needed to insure that cartridges fully seat.
I know there are now many, many other powders available, but being an old fart I am not familiar with any that have not been around for about the past 30 years or more.
I'd be willing to try anything that easily loads 9mm and .45 to IDPA power factors, but that can also go more than 100 rounds before requiring major mop-outs.
Thanks.
ETA -- These low-velocity match loads produce a lot more soot than full-power defense stuff, for which Bullseye along with most powders are probably cleaner. I need something cleaner specifically in the match-load range.
As I recall, American Select is close to Bullseye and it's advertised as being much cleaner. kwg
I load Bullseye with lead .45 and can shoot maybe 500 or more before things get the point they start to fail. 100-200 is just a quick wipe with rag or bore snake.
judgecrater
12-10-12, 09:57
While I have excellent results with Bullseye, it is dirty. I have had good results with both my 9mm and 45acp guns using WSF and Universal. Both shoot cleanly.
Boxerglocker
12-10-12, 16:17
I really like the ballistic performance I have been getting using Bullseye for 9mm and .45 loaded to make IDPA power-factor criteria. Accuracy, reliability, recoil managment, etc. have all been great.
The main exception though -- which is huge -- is crud. :bad:
Even after just 100 rounds or so, the guns are heavily trashed. The chamber will get so sooty that brushing out is needed to insure that cartridges fully seat.
I know there are now many, many other powders available, but being an old fart I am not familiar with any that have not been around for about the past 30 years or more.
I'd be willing to try anything that easily loads 9mm and .45 to IDPA power factors, but that can also go more than 100 rounds before requiring major mop-outs.
Thanks.
ETA -- These low-velocity match loads produce a lot more soot than full-power defense stuff, for which Bullseye along with most powders are probably cleaner. I need something cleaner specifically in the match-load range.
I assume your looking for a powder that will accommodate both calibers. That being clear, if your flirting with minimum PF for IDPA Bulleye in regards to a clean burner is probably the wrong choice. I would give W231 a try. It works well for both calibers and burns very clean.
It also might be worth noting that if you like Bullseye and it's working well for you..... you may want to drink a heavy dose of the FrogLube Koolaid.
I don't understand how you gun is getting dirty so fast. I mean I shoot wax ring lead and 3.6g BE ( and I'm pretty sure that meets min power factor ) and it's smokey and builds up carbon but nothing like what you mention.
I used to have a hell of a time cleaning the rail right across from feed ramp and that little bridge area ( 1911 ), but since I cleaned it all about and then FrogLubed the whole deal it's been a lot better with minimal buildup.
I would hate to have to figure up a new non BE load for my 1911.
I think I have W231 in the 9MM and that is clean but I haven't got a good load yet. ( not the powder's fault. )
m1a_scoutguy
12-10-12, 22:57
I use both Titegroup and Universal Clays,in my 9mm & 45 ACP loads !! I use the Universal more in my 9mm & the Titegroup in my 45 !! I shoot Lead Bullets 99% of the time out of both pistols. Grab a Pound of either and give them a try,,,they work pretty good out of my Glock & 1911s !!!
TiteGroup is excellent in 9mm and fair in .45 for IDPA. I've found TiteGroup in 9mm to have good accuracy and low standard deviations across a borad range of charge weights. I prefer Clays in .45ACP for a soft shooting load that's very economical. If you're in a spendy mood, Vit 320 is soft, clean and cool burning with great accuracy. I've heard good things on Solo 1000 and 147gr 9mm loads at 130PF with it have almost zero flash.
Hope this helps!
m1a_scoutguy
12-10-12, 23:49
TiteGroup is excellent in 9mm and fair in .45 for IDPA. I've found TiteGroup in 9mm to have good accuracy and low standard deviations across a borad range of charge weights. I prefer Clays in .45ACP for a soft shooting load that's very economical. If you're in a spendy mood, Vit 320 is soft, clean and cool burning with great accuracy. I've heard good things on Solo 1000 and 147gr 9mm loads at 130PF with it have almost zero flash.
Hope this helps!
Good info,,I will look at the SOLO 1000 !! I am a cheap Ole Fart,,but if the Vit is that good,,I mite look at that also !!! I know the Titegroup is good for the 9mm but with shooting Lead 99% of the time,,the titegroup burns a little Hot,,so I did switch to the Clays and its not as bad !! The guy I get my bullets from also switched Lubes & I did notice less smoke out of my 45 Loads,,but have not got any New 9s with the New Lube,,but when I do,,maybe the mix of different lube,,different powder will make a even bigger difference !!! I'll have to look up some info on your Powders,,its pretty hard to switch when your using 3.8 grns of powder in a 9mm load and a tad over 4grns for 45s,,powder goes a loooooong ways,,,LOL !!!
I've had great luck with Clays for nearly 20 years.
StrikerFired
12-11-12, 07:08
I also use Titegroup in 9mm and 45. I burns hot, but doesn't leave much "crud" in the pistols
NWcityguy2
12-11-12, 23:33
If you are shooting lead then that is the source of your dirty gun problem and switching powder is going to have a minimal effect. Lead is dirty and there is no way around it.
If you want a powder recommendation the real area for improvement is something that is softer shooting than Bullseye. Both Hodgdon Clays and Accurate #2 will be that. Clays probably won't make PF for 9mm but it is very popular in 45acp. They are both cleaner burning powders in a text book sense but unless you start shooting jacketed/plated you aren't going to see the difference.
These are a lot of good recommendations -- thanks. I will check load data on some of these powders and try whatever looks most promising.
If you are shooting lead then that is the source of your dirty gun problem and switching powder is going to have a minimal effect......
I should have specified, all bullets are jacketed or plated. Previous experience left me not wanting to deal with cast lead.
I use Solo 1000 for both 9mm and 45 and its great. Accurate, soft shooting and clean using lead bullets.
I would go with win231 it is clean. I use it for 45acp, 38spcl, 9mm, and 40s&w loads for range practice. I have not tried to load for match accuracy, but have shot some very tight groups with the 45.
You are using some very small charges. Some powders get cruddy like you are saying at low charges, but once you bump up the charge they burn cleaner. Im not familiar with bullseye so i can not say it is your problem for sure.
I would bump up the charge, and see how it goes. It will more than likely shoot cleaner. I just bought some bullseye to load some match 45acp 230 ball after reading some articles about bullseye comp shooters using it, and the accuracy potential. So i thought i would give it a try.
I like W231 and Accurate Arms # 2 for 9mm, 38Spl and 45ACP target loads. Accurate Arms # 5 works well for .40 S&W loads.
Its pretty hard to switch when your using 3.8 grns of powder in a 9mm load and a tad over 4grns for 45s,,powder goes a loooooong ways,,,LOL !!!
+1
I'm working my way through 8lbs of Unique, 4.5gr at a time...
It's smoky and dirty, and I'm going to try Solo 1000, based on recommendations here an on Brian Enos's forum.
+1
I'm working my way through 8lbs of Unique, 4.5gr at a time...
It's smoky and dirty, and I'm going to try Solo 1000, based on recommendations here an on Brian Enos's forum.
You're saying Unique is smoky and dirty?
I've heard that before, but I've also heard that they have a "cleaner burning" version now....which is what it says on my 8lb jug.
I haven't started loading 9mm yet, so I was wondering what your experiences with it were like?
I'll know for myself soon enough, but it sounds like I'm married to the powder for a long time regardless...I think I can load somewhere around 11K rounds with the 8lbs lol
You're saying Unique is smoky and dirty?
I've heard that before, but I've also heard that they have a "cleaner burning" version now....which is what it says on my 8lb jug.
Yes, smoky and dirty.
I've heard that the "new and improved" Unique is better, but I'm still working my way through a barrel of the OLD Unique...
Let us know how the new Unique works for you, and maybe I'll just stick with that instead of switching to Solo 1000.
Yes, smoky and dirty.
I've heard that the "new and improved" Unique is better, but I'm still working my way through a barrel of the OLD Unique...
Let us know how the new Unique works for you, and maybe I'll just stick with that instead of switching to Solo 1000.
Will do. Hopefully I'll have some loaded up before the new year.
I'm going to echo the recomendation for W231, for both 9mm and .45. There are better powders out there, but it's cheap, meters well and is fairly clean for both calibers. If you are going for a super clean, competition only power, it's pretty hard to beat regular Clays.
My favorite, for a 5" 1911, is 3.9g of Clays, Zero 230g JHP, for about a 166PF. It's clean and soft.
I've used all of these but settled on 800x. 1000 fps with 147 grain and slow recoil impulse.
"Even after just 100 rounds or so, the guns are heavily trashed. The chamber will get so sooty that brushing out is needed to insure that cartridges fully seat."
Are you running minimum loads in sub-freezing temperatures.
Maybe you should try Titegroup.
I like Hodgdon Clays powder for my pistol reloads
I'll add another recommendation for Accurate #2. I find our 9mm pistols fairly clean after a couple hundred rounds. Another benefit is the low charge weight needed, making a pound of this go a long way.
Have you tried any of the Vihtavuori powders? A little more expensive but I have found they work best. I haven't loaded for .45 for a while but I hear VV N310 works great for .45 ACP. N310 is a fast powder much like Bullseye. I use VV N320 for 9mm, also fast but not as fast as N310. N340, 350 create more recoil but can be more accurate.
m1a_scoutguy
12-20-12, 10:49
Have you tried any of the Vihtavuori powders? A little more expensive but I have found they work best. I haven't loaded for .45 for a while but I hear VV N310 works great for .45 ACP. N310 is a fast powder much like Bullseye. I use VV N320 for 9mm, also fast but not as fast as N310. N340, 350 create more recoil but can be more accurate.
I checked at my Local Gun Guy,,but he didn't have any VV powder !!! Sounds like it mite be a worth while powder to try !! But like alot of people have said,,myself included,,its pretty hard to switch from Universal & Titegroup,,,they just go sooooooooo,,,far and seem to work great !! Worth considering I guess though !!:D
Thanks all for the continued replies and advice!
Yesterday I went ahead and picked up a pound of Titegroup. I had seen that suggested starting loads and velocities for both 147-gr 9mm FMJ and 230-gr .45 FMJ (what I am using) are very close to the IDPA power factors.
I'll get some rounds assembled and shot, and report back here on whether Titegroup is any less gunk producing than Bullseye in these loadings.
I would like to hear your results so please do.
judgecrater
12-21-12, 19:31
These are a lot of good recommendations -- thanks. I will check load data on some of these powders and try whatever looks most promising.
I should have specified, all bullets are jacketed or plated. Previous experience left me not wanting to deal with cast lead.
Well I just went to the range yesterday with my G17 with KKM barrel and shot a bunch of 9mm using Bullseye and it still produces the best groups of all my powders and clean up wasn't really all that bad. No leading at all. I picked up another pound of it at the range.
Another vote for Solo 1000 for 45.
When I used to shoot Bullseye (the game) some of the High Masters at the club began making the switch from Bullseye(the powder) to Solo 1000.
It's clean, accurate, and fluffier than Bullseye so it's pretty hard to double charge a case.
Another vote for Solo 1000 for 45.
When I used to shoot Bullseye (the game) some of the High Masters at the club began making the switch from Bullseye(the powder) to Solo 1000.
It's clean, accurate, and fluffier than Bullseye so it's pretty hard to double charge a case.
Do you know what charge was used for 145g LSWC?
theblackknight
12-21-12, 21:30
VV320 is like crack for IPSC guys.
Do you know what charge was used for 145g LSWC?
Is that for a 9mm? I don't load for 9mm yet though I have the dies
For 45acp:
For accuracy in a 1911 made for Bullseye shooting, I used 4.1grs with a 185gr lswc. But that is with a 12# spring and won't cycle most stock guns. Out of my pistol that load will put the bullets on top of each other at 25 yards
For IDPA I used 4.7gr with a 230gr LRN and 5.1grs with 230gr TMJ in my stock 1911 or M&P 45
Is that for a 9mm? I don't load for 9mm yet though I have the dies
For 45acp:
For accuracy in a 1911 made for Bullseye shooting, I used 4.1grs with a 185gr lswc. But that is with a 12# spring and won't cycle most stock guns. Out of my pistol that load will put the bullets on top of each other at 25 yards
For IDPA I used 4.7gr with a 230gr LRN and 5.1grs with 230gr TMJ in my stock 1911 or M&P 45
Sorry, yes, I meant 185g I was getting mixed up with 9mm 147g.
I might have to try that next time. So it still shoots just as soft as the Bullseye. I think I have about a 12lb spring as well. Thanks for the info.
TB
I'll use Clays, Zip or 231.
Clint Smith did an article a couple of years back about using one powder for all his ammo to keep things simple. He used 231.
While I like the idea of keeping things simple, I can't seem to do it. I seem to have three powders for every caliber I load for!!
I use mostly Clays for target loads in .45ACP, but also Titegroup sometimes. Titegroup is a very versatile powder. I use it for .45 ACP. .45 Colt, and 9MM, but I also use W231/HP-38 for target loads in 9MM. Both Clays, and Titegroup are pretty clean burning.
Clint Smith did an article a couple of years back about using one powder for all his ammo to keep things simple.
This is the main reason we went with Bullseye. It loads 9mm, .45acp and 38Spl/.357mag for us, and we find it cleaner burning than W231...
Thanks all for the continued replies and advice!
Yesterday I went ahead and picked up a pound of Titegroup. I had seen that suggested starting loads and velocities for both 147-gr 9mm FMJ and 230-gr .45 FMJ (what I am using) are very close to the IDPA power factors.
I'll get some rounds assembled and shot, and report back here on whether Titegroup is any less gunk producing than Bullseye in these loadings.
Did ya get a chance to test this out yet? Thanks.
Have you tried Winchester Super Target (WST)? It definitely gives more of a "Push" than Bullseye's "Slap" behind both 9mms and .45s -- and is a whole lot cleaner than both Bullseye and 231.
VV 320 is also good if you can find it (a bit more expensive, though).
Did ya get a chance to test this out yet? Thanks.
I've been still using up the Bullseye I have, but also trying to conserve ammo in general in light of the current shortage. :fie:
Expect I'll need to break open that Titegroup at some though, and will report back once I've got any results.
theblackknight
01-28-13, 16:58
Bulleye isnt horrible but its gets hot fast. For my moly(lead) 147gr 9mm rounds the min/max is 2.8-3.2. After this runs out Im getting a keg of Solo.
Also VV320 is more $$, but you use less of it to get the same fps as other powders.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Bulleye isnt horrible but its gets hot fast. For my moly(lead) 147gr 9mm rounds the min/max is 2.8-3.2. After this runs out Im getting a keg of Solo.
Also VV320 is more $$, but you use less of it to get the same fps as other powders.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
How does the moly work with a lead bullet? Do you buy your lead or cast you own?
VV powders are very nice. If anyone shoots the 147 xtp's check out VV 3N38.
I've used Unique for years but like it best in my .44 and .45 Colt. For both 9mm and .45 ACP I've used 231 and Clays. Clays seems to be pretty clean to me.
Maineshooter
02-04-13, 12:07
As others have said here, Winchester 231 is a good choice. I use it exclusively for 45 acp and have even played around with it with some .38 special target loads. It meters very well is inexpensive.
theblackknight
02-04-13, 12:57
How does the moly work with a lead bullet? Do you buy your lead or cast you own?
VV powders are very nice. If anyone shoots the 147 xtp's check out VV 3N38.
I buy from Black bullets international. Their coating isnt technically moly but whatevs
sent from mah gun,using my sights
I buy from Black bullets international. Their coating isnt technically moly but whatevs
sent from mah gun,using my sights
How does your barrel look after a long weekend at the range? Any leading? Does the coating turn the barrel black? Do you know if it is corrosive like moly? How fast do you run your 147's?
I have been looking into shooting some lead bullets to see if i like them. I have always used precision or zero jacketed bullets. I will have to look into the black bullets for cheaper time with the pistol.
For accuracy my pistols like a Zero 125gr JFN with VV N340. For less recoil VV N320 is better with very acceptable accuracy. I have tried other powders but I keep coming back to VV. It costs a little more but one uses less and clean up is minimal.
SilverTongueDevil
02-07-13, 08:48
True blue from ramshot has been a super clean powder give it a try if you can find it...
SilverTongueDevil
02-07-13, 08:53
Double post deleted
judgecrater
02-07-13, 09:50
As others have said here, Winchester 231 is a good choice. I use it exclusively for 45 acp and have even played around with it with some .38 special target loads. It meters very well is inexpensive.
While I shoot a lot of Universal and Bullseye with excellent accuracy, I did shoot a couple of hundred 45ACP using W231 and it was noticeably cleaner.
ranger351w
02-09-13, 05:25
This should be good:dance3:
I use greendot for IDPA and USPSA in all my cfire handguns 9mm and .45 in 1911. Have no bullet accuracy probs. and is clean.
One powder does handgun and shotgun. I got the trash can ready for the purists:moil:
Oh yes and it is cheap.:dirol:
One powder does handgun and shotgun. I got the trash can ready for the purists:moil:
:dirol:
This is nothing new.
Many shotgun powders convert very well to pistol. I've used WST since it came out and 452AA before that. Clays is very popular on the various clays fields as well as with the IPSC crowd; Blue Dot worked for duck hunters and magnum pistol shooters back in the day; and if you are into .410 (or not) and .357, the WW296 has gotten the nod for about half a century. WSF is great for several calibers and makes a great 1 1/4 oz bird load. I could go on...the above are just a few that I've actually used dual purpose - Green Dot was one as well.
thopkins22
02-09-13, 17:39
Also VV320 is more $$, but you use less of it to get the same fps as other powders.
I love N320. 3.2 gr. behind 147gr Ranier plated bullets gets me above PF and is super sweet and soft. Plus it's not terribly dense, a double charge will totally fill the case.
Clean and meters really well out of my 550 too.
Found a 8# jug of Clays the other day when every single other powder was out of stock. I just finished up the jug I bought in 1992. Loaded over 10,000 rounds of .45ACP with that powder and it works good for 9mm and .40 also. Very clean powder.
IndianaBoy
02-11-13, 16:10
I think I'm the only person in the world using Green Dot for 9mm. There is a lot of load data out there and good velocity is obtained with less powder charge than many of the other options. I never see anyone else comment that they use it.
I'm mostly loading Precision lead bullets (polymer coated) which generates a little smoke but the gun itself stays squeaky clean. It is actually a little bit astonishing how clean the internals/breech stay.
I never see the flakes of unburned powder like I used to see with factory WWB and Remington ammo.
It has been years since I even tried any other powder in a 9mm. I've gone whole 3-gun seasons without doing anything more than adding some oil and cleaning the barrel once or twice.
snowdog650
02-11-13, 17:59
I use Power Pistol for my 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45ACP. I find it to be clean, and you definitely won't have a problem meeting PF.
NWcityguy2
02-12-13, 11:32
Green Dot is great for 9mm if you can consistently meter it. My Autodisk won't drop it consistently below 5.2gr (which is max load for my 9mm load) and it won't drop it at all when the swamp cooler is running. All the load data you need for it is in the Alliant 2004 manual. For 45acp there are other powders that give equal velocity with lower felt recoil, but it is still a good powder.
I'm about half way through my 8lb jug and I won't be buying another one but it works good in a pinch.
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