View Full Version : Where do you draw the line on a light/short trigger?
I know the standard belief is that Glock does not require a manual safety and that a 1911 with its short and lighter trigger does.
My question is:
With the PPQ trigger, and other "light/short pre-travel" upgrades to triggers,
Where do you draw the line for when the trigger is TOO light and short for a non-range only gun? Should they merit a safety then?
I know the standard belief is that Glock does not require a manual safety and that a 1911 with its short and lighter trigger does.
My question is:
With the PPQ trigger, and other "light/short pre-travel" upgrades to triggers,
Where do you draw the line for when the trigger is TOO light and short for a non-range only gun? Should they merit a safety then?
Typically, the golden rule (as explained to me) is that carry/defensive guns start with 4LBS triggers.
In regards to pre-travel, this is going to be personal preference/what you are comfortable with.
C4
LightningFast
12-12-12, 08:13
This is a topic I've been wrestling with quite a bit. I've recently purchased a PPQ and am unsure how to carry it (should I choose to) due to the short pre-travel. I carry everything else AIWB, but this might necessitate something else - especially once the trigger is broken in.
I'm still considering a minimalist style holster that I can reholster the gun in front of me, and then place on the belt.
If your holster covers the trigger guard, and your finger is off the trigger and out of the trigger guard when unholstered, I'm not really sure why it matters so much what weight the trigger is, how much pre-travel there is, or the "necessity" for a safety?
Me personally, I don't care for triggers much under 4 lbs...but that's more of a preference than a safety precaution.
In my opinion, 4.5+ lbs AND pre-travel similar to a glock.
The fact that the glock trigger is not fully cocked until you pull the trigger (unlike the PPQ) is a nice plus.
If your holster covers the trigger guard, and your finger is off the trigger and out of the trigger guard when unholstered, I'm not really sure why it matters so much what weight the trigger is, how much pre-travel there is, or the "necessity" for a safety?
Me personally, I don't care for triggers much under 4 lbs...but that's more of a preference than a safety precaution.
Right you are, but most people do not have the gun handling/training experience that you and I have and it makes them nervous I think.
Honestly, people SHOULD BE competent and safe with a 2LBS trigger and zero take up. Then again, this would mean that they attend training, practice and are dedicated to safe gun handling.
C4
I had an fss kit dropped in my M&P, its somewhere in between 3.5-4lbs. I was nervous about it until I trained a bunch with it, but now im more than comfortable with it.
Right you are, but most people do not have the gun handling/training experience that you and I have and it makes them nervous I think.
Honestly, people SHOULD BE competent and safe with a 2LBS trigger and zero take up. Then again, this would mean that they attend training, practice and are dedicated to safe gun handling.
C4
Yeah you're exactly right...I guess when I come on this site, I have the notion that everyone is (or in the process of) getting training on all this stuff.
I didn't think of it from a "newbie" perspective. In that case, I can see there being some nervousness.
Right you are, but most people do not have the gun handling/training experience that you and I have and it makes them nervous I think.
Honestly, people SHOULD BE competent and safe with a 2LBS trigger and zero take up. Then again, this would mean that they attend training, practice and are dedicated to safe gun handling.
C4
So, you think that carrying a S80 1911 with a 2.0 lbs trigger and no thumb and grip safety should be perfectly OK?
So, you think that carrying a S80 1911 with a 2.0 lbs trigger and no thumb and grip safety should be perfectly OK?
Yeah, I would think that is an accident waiting to happen.
For me, a Glock, M&P w/o safety, PPQ, etc, do not have the extra insurance that I require. I want a safety and/or long DA pull with a hammer being a plus. A safety equipped M&P would be acceptable for me although I don't have one. I went with a HK P30 DA/SA and I am quite satisfied. That is my line..
So, you think that carrying a S80 1911 with a 2.0 lbs trigger and no thumb and grip safety should be perfectly OK?
If you are trained and follow gun safety rules I'd agree it should be safe. Give me evidence why it wouldn't be safe with those expectations. If something is touching your trigger while you are re-holstering I'm not sure the difference between 2 lb and 4 lb or even 8lb is going to make much difference.
He clearly said not everyone is at that level.
Outside a competition environment, I would stay FAR away from someone carrying a S80 1911 with a 2.0 lbs trigger and no thumb and grip safety, no matter how "expert".
Outside a competition environment, I would stay FAR away from someone carrying a S80 1911 with a 2.0 lbs trigger and no thumb and grip safety, no matter how "expert".
That's a trust issue on your part. Not a competence issue for that person carrying that gun.
Hell, I try to stay away from MOST "shooters" when I'm at a range because I simply don't trust their gun handling skills (or lack thereof). The trigger pull weight never crosses my mind because it really doesn't matter if safe handling skills are not being utilized.
I prefer a 4 lb minimum trigger pull on a defensive pistol. A lighter trigger does not give me any advantage. The minimum trigger pull I like on any of my firearms is 3 lbs. I do not carry a target pistol for defense.
Doc. Holiday
12-12-12, 09:49
So, you think that carrying a S80 1911 with a 2.0 lbs trigger and no thumb and grip safety should be perfectly OK?
I believe that he said with the proper training. And by training, it's not just taking it out shooting in the desert a few times a month. I think what Grant was trying to say (Tell me if I'm wrong) is that with proper training, any individual with the proper amount of consistent training can manipulate any gun with almost any trigger pull safely. Now that doesn't mean it is always wise to carry a gun with that light of a trigger, but it can be done. I personally like my guns to be in the 4.5 lb-5 lb range.
(Grant, if you meant by something else I apologize, but that's what I got out of your post)
francobx22
12-12-12, 09:49
I prefer a 4 lb minimum trigger pull on a defensive pistol. A lighter trigger does not give me any advantage. The minimum trigger pull I like on any of my firearms is 3 lbs. I do not carry a target pistol for defense.
I am going to have to agree, 4 to 5 lbs no lighter.
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I would say as a general principle, 4-5 lbs would be a reasonable trigger pull for defensive applications.
That's a trust issue on your part. Not a competence issue for that person carrying that gun.
Hell, I try to stay away from MOST "shooters" when I'm at a range because I simply don't trust their gun handling skills (or lack thereof). The trigger pull weight never crosses my mind because it really doesn't matter if safe handling skills are not being utilized.
In the context of this discussion, proper training and safe handling skills are a given.
For me it is NOT a trust issue related to the skill of the shooter, the margin of safety is too low when you only have to lightly touch the trigger for it to go BOOM!, intentionally, sympathetic response, when holstering, numb hands, etc.
And since with a little training you can do great shooting with a much heavier and longer trigger (say 5 lbs glock trigger), or with a 1911 (4+ lbs) with thumb safety) I see no need to shave the margin of safety built-in into these style of pistols, for me or the people around me.
For a carry pistol,the trigger characteristics of my PPQ ( take up, break at 4.85 lbs and reset) are pretty close to perfect "for me".
Yeah you're exactly right...I guess when I come on this site, I have the notion that everyone is (or in the process of) getting training on all this stuff.
I didn't think of it from a "newbie" perspective. In that case, I can see there being some nervousness.
I make this assumption as well, but this just isn't the case.
C4
So, you think that carrying a S80 1911 with a 2.0 lbs trigger and no thumb and grip safety should be perfectly OK?
You have to put things in context and read my first post in this thread.
Would I or would I ever advise someone to carry the gun you have listed? No. The reasons for this are many, but the two main ones are that training with a gun that has a 2LBS trigger on it RUINS you from being able to shoot other pistols well AND guns that have this light a trigger generally have been heavily modified (cut down springs, etc) and simply are not reliable enough to bet my life on.
The point is that people should be able to handle any gun in any configuration and always be safe.
C4
francobx22
12-12-12, 10:23
I make this assumption as well, but this just isn't the case.
C4
Well that's the problem with anything, how many of us actually put in the time and energy to better ones ability/knowledge in something.
Its easy to say don't go lighter than 4lbs but understanding why is the key, which takes training/education.
There is much more behind than just a safety factor, the mechanics of us being human and the way we function under stress and process/relay information is all part of the reasons, and so fort.
But hey those are just my 2cents.
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That's a trust issue on your part. Not a competence issue for that person carrying that gun.
Hell, I try to stay away from MOST "shooters" when I'm at a range because I simply don't trust their gun handling skills (or lack thereof). The trigger pull weight never crosses my mind because it really doesn't matter if safe handling skills are not being utilized.
True.
C4
In the context of this discussion, proper training and safe handling skills are a given.
For me it is NOT a trust issue related to the skill of the shooter, the margin of safety is too low when you only have to lightly touch the trigger for it to go BOOM!, intentionally, sympathetic response, when holstering, numb hands, etc.
And since with a little training you can do great shooting with a much heavier and longer trigger (say 5 lbs glock trigger), or with a 1911 (4+ lbs) with thumb safety) I see no need to shave the margin of safety built-in into these style of pistols, for me or the people around me.
This would mean that your finger was on the trigger. If one had proper training, the finger would far away from the trigger until the sights were leveled on threat and you intended to kill them. If you did not have this intention, then your finger should not be anywhere near the trigger.
When I draw my weapon, my finger is high up on the ejection port. When I holster my gun, I LOOK the gun into the holster (especially with an IWB setup). So no worries on a 2LBS trigger going off on its own without human assistance.
We all have to make decisions on what we are comfortable with based off of our experience level. For me, I am comfortable holding an AR or pistol in a room the size of a closet with three other dudes, in the dark. YMMV
C4
Well that's the problem with anything, how many of us actually put in the time and energy to better ones ability/knowledge in something.
Its easy to say don't go lighter than 4lbs but understanding why is the key, which takes training/education.
There is much more behind than just a safety factor, the mechanics of us being human and the way we function under stress and process/relay information is all part of the reasons, and so fort.
But hey those are just my 2cents.
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True. It is alarming to me the number of people that carry a gun (Civy, Cop, etc) that have had little to no training.
The truth is that a 10-12LBS trigger is NOT going to save someone from from shooting themselves or an innocent person under a lot of stress, little training and good gun handling practices. If you doubt, just ask NYPD. ;)
C4
IMO every single factory trigger is a piece of crap designed with potential litigation in mind.
My M&P with FSS installed is a great trigger. Also have the Apex DAEK trigger in my carry gun, again a great trigger.
Manufacturers could build a good trigger put they might be "to deadly".
Again protecting people from themselves.
.....The truth is that a 10-12LBS trigger is NOT going to save someone from from shooting themselves or an innocent person under a lot of stress.......C4
That is a fact. It is all about training and frequency of training. I prefer a 4-5 lb trigger for LEO use.
francobx22
12-12-12, 11:14
True. It is alarming to me the number of people that carry a gun (Civy, Cop, etc) that have had little to no training.
The truth is that a 10-12LBS trigger is NOT going to save someone from from shooting themselves or an innocent person under a lot of stress, little training and good gun handling practices. If you doubt, just ask NYPD. ;)
C4
Lol NYPD.. I know I work with them and when I was in the academy and to this day so many of them never train but its not in my nature to carry something and not be able to use it to my best ability.
I am not the norm cop/civy.. in my background would show it but this isn't a thread about flexing our muscles lol.
I just simply wanted to state that although NYPD has 10lbs vs factory 4lbs its still better off than 2lbs.. it all starts with training and education of the weapon system and what your body does under stress.
Like you stated 10lbs these idiots I hate to call brothers in blue at times still manage to shoot each other, but that mainly falls on their training.
You have too train, you have to understand why 4lbs is better than 2lbs, understand why no agencies ever go below the factory trigger weights, guns have been around longer than all of us in this thread, WW colt 1911s and still to this day have the same trigger. Why is that ? There is reason behind it.
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This would mean that your finger was on the trigger. If one had proper training, the finger would far away from the trigger until the sights were leveled on threat and you intended to kill them. If you did not have this intention, then your finger should not be anywhere near the trigger.
When I draw my weapon, my finger is high up on the ejection port. When I holster my gun, I LOOK the gun into the holster (especially with an IWB setup). So no worries on a 2LBS trigger going off on its own without human assistance.
We all have to make decisions on what we are comfortable with based off of our experience level. For me, I am comfortable holding an AR or pistol in a room the size of a closet with three other dudes, in the dark. YMMV
C4
I just wanna know why you'd be in a closet...with three other dudes...in the dark :confused:
:p
Real Question:
You mentioned that you LOOK into the holster when re-holstering. I was taught the same...however, I carry behind the hip, so its hard to get a really good visual on my holster, so I just go REALLY slow (which you should anyway). What is your preferred method if you can't see your holster? Hand sweep? Something else?
This would mean that your finger was on the trigger. If one had proper training, the finger would far away from the trigger until the sights were leveled on threat and you intended to kill them. If you did not have this intention, then your finger should not be anywhere near the trigger.
When I draw my weapon, my finger is high up on the ejection port. When I holster my gun, I LOOK the gun into the holster (especially with an IWB setup). So no worries on a 2LBS trigger going off on its own without human assistance.
We all have to make decisions on what we are comfortable with based off of our experience level. For me, I am comfortable holding an AR or pistol in a room the size of a closet with three other dudes, in the dark. YMMVC4
The part in bold is the part I don't trust, no matter what the level of training., during stress, high speed movement, irregular floor, etc., YMMV indeeed.
Here is what LAV had to say about the PPQ's trigger in the "Ask the SME" section of this forum. PPQ triggers are usually around 5-5.5 lbs. when new. Trigger characteristics preferences can vary from person to person, so just pick a pistol with a trigger that you are comfortable with.
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So far thumbs up with the PPQ- accurate, reliable, and the best trigger on any striker fired gun on the market
The PPQ has all the makings of being a winner
LAV
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francobx22
12-12-12, 12:07
The part in bold is the part I don't trust, no matter what the level of training., during stress, high speed movement, irregular floor, etc., YMMV indeeed.
He is practicing the right things here by keeping his finger off the trigger until up on target and committed to shoot..
When it comes to holstering you should always be reluctant to do so. Don't be so quick to stop, assess the situation,make sure exits are found, treats are terminated, etc
At the end of the day we always fall back on our lowest level of training under severe stress, thus why training is the leading factor for everything. IMO
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I just wanna know why you'd be in a closet...with three other dudes...in the dark :confused:
:p
Don't you worry about it. :no:
Real Question:
You mentioned that you LOOK into the holster when re-holstering. I was taught the same...however, I carry behind the hip, so its hard to get a really good visual on my holster, so I just go REALLY slow (which you should anyway). What is your preferred method if you can't see your holster? Hand sweep? Something else?
I typically don't use any holsters that I cannot see into so I don't know that I can give you any first hand advice. With that said, pulling up the cover garment (just as you did in your draw) and slowing pressing the gun in (as you stated) is best. Having enough reps with it to know when something isn't right (resistance from a garment) is important I think so you know when to stop applying pressure.
For whatever reason, looking at your holster as you put the gun into makes people think that you have poor gun handling skills/lack of practice with a holster. I teach my students there is NO SHAME in looking the gun into the holster. Since most people are shot drawing and holstering their gun, I think it makes a lot of sense.
C4
I typically don't use any holsters that I cannot see into so I don't know that I can give you any first hand advice. With that said, pulling up the cover garment (just as you did in your draw) and slowing pressing the gun in (as you stated) is best. Having enough reps with it to know when something isn't right (resistance from a garment) is important I think so you know when to stop applying pressure.
For whatever reason, looking at your holster as you put the gun into makes people think that you have poor gun handling skills/lack of practice with a holster. I teach my students there is NO SHAME in looking the gun into the holster. Since most people are shot drawing and holstering their gun, I think it makes a lot of sense.
C4
Agreed.
And thanks. I know what you mean about feeling something "off" and stopping your re-holster to clear whatever might be causing the resistance.
" My call is the Glock, and other pistols like it, have made the manual safety somewhat obsolete - provided the trigger mechanism is adequately designed to give the shooter enough takeup or slack to serve as a passive safety device - your last subconscious warning you are about to launch a round - examples of guns that do are the Glock, M&P, and XD - a pistol that does not is a 1911 so in that case a manual safety is still a valuable asset
Be safe
LAV"
From https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101689
This was the original quote that cause me to post up this thread, I guess I should have posted it in the front. So to clarify my main question is. If a striker fire trigger is modified to the point of a short/light trigger like a 1911, should it require (be recommend to have) a manual safety?
If not, where do we draw the line in terms of pre-travel and weight?
" My call is the Glock, and other pistols like it, have made the manual safety somewhat obsolete - provided the trigger mechanism is adequately designed to give the shooter enough takeup or slack to serve as a passive safety device - your last subconscious warning you are about to launch a round - examples of guns that do are the Glock, M&P, and XD - a pistol that does not is a 1911 so in that case a manual safety is still a valuable asset
Be safe
LAV"
From https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101689
This was the original quote that cause me to post up this thread, I guess I should have posted it in the front. So to clarify my main question is. If a striker fire trigger is modified to the point of a short/light trigger like a 1911, should it require (be recommend to have) a manual safety?
If not, where do we draw the line in terms of pre-travel and weight?
Your question has no answer. It will differ for each person who owns a gun based on their training/intelligence. Even if this thread miraculously settled on something it wouldn't apply as a rule.
Your question has no answer. It will differ for each person who owns a gun based on their training/intelligence. Even if this thread miraculously settled on something it wouldn't apply as a rule.
This. Someone of Vickers experience level can basically get away with any kind of trigger (2lbs with no take up).
Know your limits based off of your training level, practice level and gun handling ability.
C4
My personal cut-off for conventional safety-less striker fired pistols like Glock or M&P w/o manual safety is 5 lbs. Having said that, I wouldn't carry these in my preferred carry position which is an appendix carry.
The more shooting and training I do, the more margins of safety I want.
Anything below 4 is no go for me. I am OK with 4.25 - 4.5 lbs short trigger of 1911 as long as both safeties are functional.
There is a recurrent quote of some FBI study that suggested that trigger pull length, not weight, is important as a safety margin. I've never seen the study so I don't know if it is an urban myth; my personal anecdotal experience suggest it is true.
My personal cut-off for conventional safety-less striker fired pistols like Glock or M&P w/o manual safety is 5 lbs. Having said that, I wouldn't carry these in my preferred carry position which is an appendix carry.
The more shooting and training I do, the more margins of safety I want.
Anything below 4 is no go for me. I am OK with 4.25 - 4.5 lbs short trigger of 1911 as long as both safeties are functional.
There is a recurrent quote of some FBI study that suggested that trigger pull length, not weight, is important as a safety margin. I've never seen the study so I don't know if it is an urban myth; my personal anecdotal experience suggest it is true.
I can understand this from a POV regarding wanting to change ones mind during in midst of a trigger pull or something has gotten into the trigger guard and you are applying pressure.
C4
I know the standard belief is that Glock does not require a manual safety and that a 1911 with its short and lighter trigger does.
My question is:
With the PPQ trigger, and other "light/short pre-travel" upgrades to triggers,
Where do you draw the line for when the trigger is TOO light and short for a non-range only gun? Should they merit a safety then?
The PPQ trigger is 5.5 same as Glocks....sorry if this was already mentioned...I skimmed
scoutchris
12-12-12, 18:29
I like a bit of pre travel. I have been in numerous situations where I was mid - squeeze and backed off due to a change of circumstances.
When I draw my weapon, my finger is high up on the ejection port. When I holster my gun, I LOOK the gun into the holster (especially with an IWB setup). So no worries on a 2LBS trigger going off on its own without human assistance.C4
But sometime your finger is not what pulls the trigger. running through bushes, wrestling with someone, clothes, a child's hand that you are trying to help while fleeing a bad situation, diving for cover and snagging a twig sticking up out of the ground.
I haven't trained anywhere near your level but I have had a High Standard since I was a teenager. I think it has about a 2lb trigger. I would nearly expect that gun to fire accidentally if I had to use it in some of above action scenarios with the safety off. ... and I do mean accidentally and not negligently.
I don't see takeup being all that much of an issue but a self defense pistol needs a little weight to the trigger imo no matter how well trained the person is.
First, let me get this out of my system. Triggers do not have "pre-travel". Triggers have stages, slack, take up and creep. They do NOT have pre-travel. Why they do not is rather simple to understand. "Pre" means "before" or "prior to". "Travel" indicates movement. So "pre-travel" literally means "before movement" that is, before the trigger moves. When taking up the slack, pressing through the first stage or creep before the sear releases the hammer or striker, the trigger is traveling. (I suppose some smart ass will tell me that when the trigger in it's full reset position, it isn't traveling and therefore has "pre-travel".)
Ok, I've got that off my chest.
Grant makes a very good point. A good pistolero should be able to carry a single action pistol with the hammer/striker cocked without a manual safety, grip safety or trigger safety. The first lesson I was taught is the only safety a shooter can rely on resides between the ears. Mechanical devices can and do fail. Mechanical safeties, being mechanical devices, can and do fail. Any shooter relying on a mechanical safety for safety is a fool and a danger to themselves and others.
Every firearm I handle, I handle as if loaded and will fire if the trigger is pressed regardless is there is a round chambered or not and regardless if the mechanical safeties are set or not. The simple fact it was pounded in my head that one never points a firearm at anything they are not willing to destroy has kept me out of trouble. Using safeties has made no difference.
Each individual must decide for themselves what type of handgun will work for them as they will be responsible for the consequences. Few people will know what condition a good shooter carries their firearm in because a good shooter is always safe. It's the unsafe shooter that draws attention to their self by their dangerous actions
Pre meaning Pre Ignition not Pre Travel.
A contraction. PreIgnition Travel
I have triggers with no slack and some with no creep.
The take up is under tension and thus not slack. then upon pressure where one can feel no further discernible trigger movement it goes bang.
I also have one that has take up, then a smooth short slide like a hypodermic needle plunger and bang
Another is take up, crunchy bumpy skippy bang
Of the 4 the hypodermic slide is the most controllable yet consistent especially if one were to have a change of mind mid slide so to speak. It's also the 1911 and I absolutely want a safety with it.
Well that's the problem with anything, how many of us actually put in the time and energy to better ones ability/knowledge in something.
I'd say quite a few on this site do in regards to firearms. I've met multiple members from M4C at classes and they generally standout from the crowd.
I run 3.5# in my Glocks and have never had an issue or felt uncomfortable. My HK's feel much more "difficult" for lack of a better term.
Depends on your situation. I would never carry a gun aiwb with a 4lb trigger as a mistake means I'm dead but then again I drive the speed limit and won't even take my car out of park unless my seat belt is on. Different levels of risk tolerance for different people.
RearwardAssist
12-12-12, 21:35
Right you are, but most people do not have the gun handling/training experience that you and I have and it makes them nervous I think.
Honestly, people SHOULD BE competent and safe with a 2LBS trigger and zero take up. Then again, this would mean that they attend training, practice and are dedicated to safe gun handling.
C4
This is very true, me and my cousin were out training and I decided to take my dad along. I had him shoot my glock and when I was giving him the run down I could tell he tensed up when I explained that there was no manual safety. I could tell it made him nervous.
Actually, the Glock does have a manual safety- it's the trigger safety. It is simply the grip safety of the 1911 moved to the trigger
Depends on your situation. I would never carry a gun aiwb with a 4lb trigger as a mistake means I'm dead but then again I drive the speed limit and won't even take my car out of park unless my seat belt is on. Different levels of risk tolerance for different people.
Interesting that you brought that up.
"Guns with manual safeties and/or exposed hammers are safer. Pout all you want, but physically blocking the gun from discharging as you holster it is a huge safety benefit."
This is a quote from TG's blog regarding AIWB.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/2998
RiflemanBobcat
12-13-12, 05:02
First, let me get this out of my system. Triggers do not have "pre-travel". Triggers have stages, slack, take up and creep. They do NOT have pre-travel. Why they do not is rather simple to understand. "Pre" means "before" or "prior to". "Travel" indicates movement. So "pre-travel" literally means "before movement" that is, before the trigger moves. When taking up the slack, pressing through the first stage or creep before the sear releases the hammer or striker, the trigger is traveling. (I suppose some smart ass will tell me that when the trigger in it's full reset position, it isn't traveling and therefore has "pre-travel".)
Ok, I've got that off my chest.
Grant makes a very good point. A good pistolero should be able to carry a single action pistol with the hammer/striker cocked without a manual safety, grip safety or trigger safety. The first lesson I was taught is the only safety a shooter can rely on resides between the ears. Mechanical devices can and do fail. Mechanical safeties, being mechanical devices, can and do fail. Any shooter relying on a mechanical safety for safety is a fool and a danger to themselves and others.
Every firearm I handle, I handle as if loaded and will fire if the trigger is pressed regardless is there is a round chambered or not and regardless if the mechanical safeties are set or not. The simple fact it was pounded in my head that one never points a firearm at anything they are not willing to destroy has kept me out of trouble. Using safeties has made no difference.
Each individual must decide for themselves what type of handgun will work for them as they will be responsible for the consequences. Few people will know what condition a good shooter carries their firearm in because a good shooter is always safe. It's the unsafe shooter that draws attention to their self by their dangerous actions
If we're going to get pedantic, then "creep" and "take-up" are different things. Creep would be unwanted movement of the trigger, take-up would be a first stage before the final sear movement.
Creep would happen on the final stage, which (especially if you follow the school of 1911's and glass-rod triggers) is a bad thing. Take-up is perfectly fine, and maybe even desirable.
Personally, I like triggers on my duty or defensive weapons to be 2-stage affairs, with a pronounced difference between the take-up and the letoff stages, and a final weight of 4.5lbs or more, but not too much more: maybe 6 to 6.5lbs at the higher end. My 1911 is a bit different, having a very short first stage of maybe 1/8 inch and about 1lb, and another 4lbs on the second stage. Then again, it also has a thumb safety--and it's not a duty or defensive pistol for me.
So I'll stand by my earlier 4.5-6.5lb, 2-stage-with-noticeable-takeup statement as MY PREFERENCE ONLY. That's based on my training and experience, and it mostly applies to striker-fired designs; most of my training time and rounds are on an issued Glock 22. Fortunately, the boss was very good about allowing issued weapons to be taken to outside training.
As an aside, that pistol had the cleanest factory trigger of any Glock I've ever handled, as well as a weight right about in the 5lb neighborhood, even a buddy who isn't a Glock fan (mildly) commented on it. Sadly, I had to turn it in a couple years ago. If the agency ever surpluses the pistols off, I'll be trying to get my hands on my old weapon. It was what formed my opinion on duty weapon triggers though.
But sometime your finger is not what pulls the trigger. running through bushes, wrestling with someone, clothes, a child's hand that you are trying to help while fleeing a bad situation, diving for cover and snagging a twig sticking up out of the ground.
I haven't trained anywhere near your level but I have had a High Standard since I was a teenager. I think it has about a 2lb trigger. I would nearly expect that gun to fire accidentally if I had to use it in some of above action scenarios with the safety off. ... and I do mean accidentally and not negligently.
I don't see takeup being all that much of an issue but a self defense pistol needs a little weight to the trigger imo no matter how well trained the person is.
If we assume any of the above is actually possible, simply following basic safety rules means that if the gun goes off, the round will land in a place that harms no one.
C4
davidjinks
12-13-12, 07:50
Stop introducing logic into all your answers Grant!
;)
In regards to the OP; I'm comfortable with no less than 3.5# on a trigger. With or without manual safety.
If we assume any of the above is actually possible, simply following basic safety rules means that if the gun goes off, the round will land in a place that harms no one.
C4
If we're going to get pedantic, then "creep" and "take-up" are different things...
Never said they were the same :)
For a carry pistol, I feel that 3.5-4lbs is the limit.
RiflemanBobcat
12-13-12, 19:51
Never said they were the same :)
Touché. I guess I read a little far into that part of your post.:o
If we assume any of the above is actually possible, simply following basic safety rules means that if the gun goes off, the round will land in a place that harms no one.C4
Not sure why none of those scenarios would not be possible, but just as you often say per LAV I believe ... under stress your accuracy will only be about 50% of your training.
Would it not stand to reason your attention to the safety rules might be diminished in a similar fashion?
50/50 chance of accidentally discharging a light trigger is not what I feel comfortable with. Like I said, I know you are far more well trained than I will ever be but still feel like in anyone's hands a bit more weight is probably a good idea regardless of the rules.
Not sure why none of those scenarios would not be possible, but just as you often say per LAV I believe ... under stress your accuracy will only be about 50% of your training.
Would it not stand to reason your attention to the safety rules might be diminished in a similar fashion?
I guess the answer is no because I have never heard a combat veteran tell me that they only paid attention to safety rules 50% of the time.
50/50 chance of accidentally discharging a light trigger is not what I feel comfortable with. Like I said, I know you are far more well trained than I will ever be but still feel like in anyone's hands a bit more weight is probably a good idea regardless of the rules.
Again, if your finger is not near the trigger, the odds of going bang are about zero. The odds of a stick getting in there and pulling your trigger for you, is probably 1%. Even this does happen though (will humor you), the gun is STILL pointed in a safe direction. So in order to actually hurt someone, you would basically have to violate two of the main safety rules. If you are the that stupid (or think you could be that stupid), you probably shouldn't have a gun.
C4
francobx22
12-13-12, 20:53
I guess the answer is no because I have never heard a combat veteran tell me that they only paid attention to safety rules 50% of the time.
Again, if your finger is not near the trigger, the odds of going bang are about zero. The odds of a stick getting in there and pulling your trigger for you, is probably 1%. Even this does happen though (will humor you), the gun is STILL pointed in a safe direction. So in order to actually hurt someone, you would basically have to violate two of the main safety rules. If you are the that stupid (or think you could be that stupid), you probably shouldn't have a gun.
C4
I am just supporting your points C4, well said.
Just wanted to point one other thing out, there is no such thing as an accidental discharge only negligent.. sorry had to get that out old mil/le habits.
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If you are the that stupid (or think you could be that stupid), you probably shouldn't have a gun.C4
LOL, ok, I'll keep that in mind... I can tell you one thing. If I see two people in a fight and they are wrestling for a gun... I'm getting the f*** out of the way. If you think the bullet is only going where the good guy wants it to because he has his finger off the 2lb trigger that's fine by me.
...and if someone takes your gun with a 2lb trigger and points it at you... you can pretty much count on getting shot at because most people are not used to that weight. ... and yes, I believe you are responsible for that gun in someone elses hands even if they took it from you.
I honestly can't believe you guys think that your environment may not come into play in an emergency situation that could snag a trigger in a high stress situation. An environment that you have little to no familiarity with. One where you could trip and fall, anything.
But each to his own.
Just wanted to point one other thing out, there is no such thing as an accidental discharge only negligent.. sorry had to get that out old mil/le habits.
I believe some here would dispute that everything the Mil teaches is the most correct.
If you are running for life from danger in the dark on a wet trail with your finger off the trigger. You had been pocket carrying. You slip and fall. You retain the gun but it snags something and fires. Where is the point at which negligence occurs? It would seem to me that if it has to be negligence that the negligence would be from leaving home with a 2lb trigger.
theblackknight
12-13-12, 21:36
My carry M&P just has the hard sear in. Good for me.
LOL, ok, I'll keep that in mind... I can tell you one thing. If I see two people in a fight and they are wrestling for a gun... I'm getting the f*** out of the way. If you think the bullet is only going where the good guy wants it to because he has his finger off the 2lb trigger that's fine by me.
...and if someone takes your gun with a 2lb trigger and points it at you... you can pretty much count on getting shot at because most people are not used to that weight. ... and yes, I believe you are responsible for that gun in someone elses hands even if they took it from you.
I honestly can't believe you guys think that your environment may not come into play in an emergency situation that could snag a trigger in a high stress situation. An environment that you have little to no familiarity with. One where you could trip and fall, anything.
But each to his own.
I believe some here would dispute that everything the Mil teaches is the most correct.
If you are running for life from danger in the dark on a wet trail with your finger off the trigger. You had been pocket carrying. You slip and fall. You retain the gun but it snags something and fires. Where is the point at which negligence occurs? It would seem to me that if it has to be negligence that the negligence would be from leaving home with a 2lb trigger.
What if space aliens abduct me and take my gun. Then they shoot another human because I had a 2LBS trigger on my gun. Would I be held responsible in US court for that shooting??? :jester:
You can "what if" everything to death and at the end of the day are simply wasting your time. Focus on what is important like learning to shoot (well) and good weapon handling in crowded spaces.
If you get your weapon taken from you, there are many fails here. With that said, your trigger pull weight WILL NOT MATTER. That's the point.
C4
That's the point.C4
I think the point was best made in post #2 of this thread.
No amount of training will make me believe that a 2lb trigger is a good decision for a safety-less(thumb, grip ) non-range weapon choice.
I think the point was best made in post #2 of this thread.
No amount of training will make me believe that a 2lb trigger is a good decision for a safety-less(thumb, grip ) non-range weapon choice.
A good decision? No one thinks that. That was never the point though.
C4
Well apparently I missed the point ( which is nothing new ).....
I thought everyone was pretty much in agreement that the answer to the OP was about a 4lb trigger.
Then the thread seemed to drift of into the realm of if you have enough training and apply it properly 100% of time then the trigger weight doesn't matter. ( This doesn't happen in real world... not mine anyway )
I'm just one of those that believe in murphy's law, that mechanical things fail, that accidents happen and no amount of training can guarantee removing them from the equation.
francobx22
12-14-12, 09:07
Well apparently I missed the point ( which is nothing new ).....
I thought everyone was pretty much in agreement that the answer to the OP was about a 4lb trigger.
Then the thread seemed to drift of into the realm of if you have enough training and apply it properly 100% of time then the trigger weight doesn't matter. ( This doesn't happen in real world... not mine anyway )
I'm just one of those that believe in murphy's law, that mechanical things fail, that accidents happen and no amount of training can guarantee removing them from the equation.
Then don't own a gun.
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Well apparently I missed the point ( which is nothing new ).....
I thought everyone was pretty much in agreement that the answer to the OP was about a 4lb trigger.
True.
Then the thread seemed to drift of into the realm of if you have enough training and apply it properly 100% of time then the trigger weight doesn't matter. ( This doesn't happen in real world... not mine anyway ).
Bold part = TRUE. Trigger weight should never matter as long as you follow basic firearms safety rules (keep gun in holster till ready to fire, finger off trigger until ready to fire, know your backstop).
I'm just one of those that believe in murphy's law, that mechanical things fail, that accidents happen and no amount of training can guarantee removing them from the equation.
This is all true, but the trigger pull weight matters not in any of this (again just ask NYPD and their 10-12LBS triggers).
C4
francobx22
12-14-12, 10:25
This is all true, but the trigger pull weight matters not in any of this (again just ask NYPD and their 10-12LBS triggers).
I can vouch for this, it doesn't prevent the officer with poor training to let off rounds.
But I can also say it doesn't hinder your ability to be fast and accurate as well. I can place very accurate rounds with speed just as well when I train with a standard glock vs my NYPD one.
But my training levels vs the norm officer is way above standards. Thus bringing Grants point back up that trigger weight in theory isn't what causes them to be unsafe , training does.
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I don't like anything under 4.5 lbs and I like some good tactile take-up that gives me a sense of where I'm at on the trigger.
I like stock Glocks and a Good DA/SA, with the edge probably going to the DA/SA because I like to prep the trigger during press-out and I'm better at it with a DA.
I've handled handguns with adrenaline-shaky hands and a longer heavier trigger pull does make a difference. Yeah, I've had buck fever and I've been scared.:haha:
Thus bringing Grants point back up that trigger weight in theory isn't what causes them to be unsafe , training does.
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"In Theory everything is possible; however, I live in Practice and the road to Theory has been washed out." Unknown.
The PPQ trigger is heavier than Glocks....sorry if this was already mentioned...I skimmed
I must be living in another universe. I handled yet another PPQ today, this is a third one I had a chance to handle. Since this was inside the LGS, I had a chance to compare it to gen4 17, 19, and Gen3 34. Wherever I pressed - middle of a trigger, tip, wherever, the PPQ was absolutely the lightest. The salesperson fully concurred.
Shouldn't be an issue for the majority here since I see people are fine with 3.5 - 4.0 short pull triggers.
Suwannee Tim
12-15-12, 19:11
......I try to stay away from MOST "shooters" when I'm at a range because I simply don't trust their gun handling skills (or lack thereof). The trigger pull weight never crosses my mind because it really doesn't matter if safe handling skills are not being utilized.
Yeah. I can't remember once saying "Hey! You pointed that gun at me! And it's only got a two pound trigger!" Or someone saying to me "Well, yeah, I pointed it at you but it has an eight pound trigger!" The point being that proper gun handling is far more important than pull weight.
Fact is, most folks on most ranges are anything but well trained. Some of them are an accident waiting to happen. Personally, I don't like Glocks because I think the energy to make them go "bang" is too low. I don't argue the point because it is obvious that millions of people manage to own and operate such firearms in some semblance of safety. Though I do know two people who have accidentally shot themselves with Glocks as well as one guy who shot himself with a 1911 with a pinned grip safety. I have never known any other person who accidentally shot himself.
.....( This doesn't happen in real world... not mine anyway )......
We evidently live in the same real world.
Back to gun safety, I admonished three guys who were unloading their rifles from their car in the parking lot, pointing them at each other, others, me. When I spoke to them one of them laughed at me. The other told me to **** myself, I think, it was whispered and I wasn't sure. These are typical of gun owners. I don't shoot with them, I spend my time on ranges they are not allowed on.
I must be living in another universe. I handled yet another PPQ today, this is a third one I had a chance to handle. Since this was inside the LGS, I had a chance to compare it to gen4 17, 19, and Gen3 34. Wherever I pressed - middle of a trigger, tip, wherever, the PPQ was absolutely the lightest. The salesperson fully concurred.
Shouldn't be an issue for the majority here since I see people are fine with 3.5 - 4.0 short pull triggers.
I edited my earlier post as I've seen it listed at 5.6, but Walther has it at 5.5 on their site.....same as Glock
Fantastic trigger
I edited my earlier post as I've seen it listed at 5.6, but Walther has it at 5.5 on their site.....same as Glock
Fantastic trigger
When my PPQ was new, I checked the trigger pull with a Lyman electronic gauge after ~50 dry fire pulls. It was 5lb 7 oz. That's compared to my G19 (with LW 3.5 connector) which measured at 5lb 9 oz.
My PPQ has a little under 2000 rounds through it now. I just rechecked the pull. Ten pulls and the average was 4lb 11oz.
I agree, fantastic trigger. I couldn't be more pleased with the PPQ. I am as happy with that pistol as I am disappointed with my Glock 19.
For a carry pistol, I like 4-1/2# and little to no pre-travel... JMO.. ron
I edited my earlier post as I've seen it listed at 5.6, but Walther has it at 5.5 on their site.....same as Glock
I don't think I owned a single striker pistol, with exception of P7, with trigger pull consistent with manufacturer's published specs. Glocks seem to run one pound heavier (Hmac's numbers go along with that too), all PPQs I handled felt subjectively and comparatively lighter.
I only trust actual trigger pull measurements done with NRA weight set or similar contraption.
I don't think I owned a single striker pistol, with exception of P7, with trigger pull consistent with manufacturer's published specs. Glocks seem to run one pound heavier (Hmac's numbers go along with that too), all PPQs I handled felt subjectively and comparatively lighter.
I only trust actual trigger pull measurements done with NRA weight set or similar contraption.
While it may feel lighter or feel more uncomfortable to some people to carry a PPQ over a Glock, the fact that there is usually less than a pound difference between the two makes me believe that if there was a ND that occurred with one, it probably would have occurred with the other.
Since the PPQ, Glock, M&P, etc., all have around the same pull weight, I would put them all in the same league as far as safety. I would compare it to a 1911 with a 1lb trigger and a 1911 with a 2lb trigger, or a 1911 with a 6lb trigger and a 1911 with a 7lb trigger, or a DA pistol with a 12lb trigger and a DA pistol with a 13lb trigger, etc.
To answer the OP's question, I personally draw the line at "safe, comfortable, and easy to shoot".
Bold part = TRUE. Trigger weight should never matter as long as you follow basic firearms safety rules (keep gun in holster till ready to fire, finger off trigger until ready to fire, know your backstop).
C4
The rules of gun safety never work100% of the time in real life.
Accidents are going to happen and trigger weight does matter because of that. The 4 rules of gun safety are an unobtainable goal we strive for. Trigger weight, safeties, holsters, etc.. are things we utilize to help us towards those unobtainable goals.
In theory you are correct. In practice everything matters.
I must be living in another universe. I handled yet another PPQ today, this is a third one I had a chance to handle. Since this was inside the LGS, I had a chance to compare it to gen4 17, 19, and Gen3 34. Wherever I pressed - middle of a trigger, tip, wherever, the PPQ was absolutely the lightest. The salesperson fully concurred.
Shouldn't be an issue for the majority here since I see people are fine with 3.5 - 4.0 short pull triggers.
We have 50 Glock's in stock. GEN 3 trigger pull is commonly around 5.5LBS. GEN 4's have a trigger pull around 6.5LBS.
All of the PPQ's I have tested have a trigger pull between 4.10-5LBS.
So yes, the PPQ will have a lighter trigger pull than any Glock you feel, but isn't as lows you think.
C4
The rules of gun safety never work100% of the time in real life.
Accidents are going to happen and trigger weight does matter because of that. The 4 rules of gun safety are an unobtainable goal we strive for. Trigger weight, safeties, holsters, etc.. are things we utilize to help us towards those unobtainable goals.
In theory you are correct. In practice everything matters.
You want to live in a world of absolutes and you are right, they are none.
Accidents happen no matter the trigger pull weight. This is why we put 3 or 4 safety mechanisms or practices in place to that cover the violation of putting your trigger finger on the trigger before you are ready to fire.
C4
A manual safety is something we fall back on when we do something stupid and hope it saves us. It is not something we should rely on
While it may feel lighter or feel more uncomfortable to some people to carry a PPQ over a Glock, the fact that there is usually less than a pound difference between the two makes me believe that if there was a ND that occurred with one, it probably would have occurred with the other.
.
There is certainly very sound logic behind this. Then, if one looked at this from another angle, going up from 4 to 5 is a 25% increase. I think it will not matter in some types of NDs, and may matter in others.
The difference between a two, three, four or five pound trigger with a range gun carried in an OWB holster hardly seems significant. However, for those who appendix carry, given the consequences of an ND, have more than a theoretical interest in this subject. Whether caused by a finger or bit of clothing, longer and heavier offer a greater margin of safety. A hammer, thumb safety or Glock Gadget, possibly provide more protection yet.
+1 @GJM & YVK
@ MistWolf - Do you feel that way about a 1911? I thought those safeties were near mandatory for it's proper operation.
@Grant
You want to live in a world of absolutes and you are right, they are none.
I have no idea where you came up with that one as it's contrary to everything I have written. We'll just have to agree that neither of us actually have a clue where the other is coming from.
I have no idea where you came up with that one as it's contrary to everything I have written. We'll just have to agree that neither of us actually have a clue where the other is coming from.
Basically you (and I) want to live in a world where safety rules are ALWAYS followed, people attend training, etc. I understand this sentiment.
C4
...@ MistWolf - Do you feel that way about a 1911? I thought those safeties were near mandatory for it's proper operation...
If you mean the statement I made about a manual safety being something we fall back on when we do something stupid, then yes, I feel that way about the 1911 as well.
I cannot emphasize enough that relying on a manually operated mechanical safety to prevent us from shooting ourselves or another is dangerous and foolish. I cannot shoot anyone on accident or intentionally if I do not point a firearm at them.
Safeties can and do fail. Worse, people fail to engage the safeties. Or safeties get knocked into the fire position. We cannot allow ourselves to be less diligent because the safety was engaged last time we handled a firearm. While carrying a 1911 the manual safety was disengaged while holstered. At first, I thought I forgot to set it. But after investigating it further when it happened again, I discovered the leather holster I was using has gotten soft from use and the thumb strap was the culprit. If I were relying on the manual safety to prevent a negligent discharge, it could have been disastrous.
Another point about the 1911 (which is hands down my favorite pistol)- The grip safety of the 1911 is not as safe (or as positive) as the trigger safety of the PPQ or Glock. When the grip safety is pressed, the pistol is ready to fire even before the finger is placed on the trigger. With a trigger safety, the pistol isn't ready to fire until the finger is on the trigger
When handling a firearm, we cannot afford to point it at anyone. A bullet cannot be called back. You cannot un-shoot someone. I have experienced my own negligent discharges and they were very sobering experiences when I thought of what would have happened if I had been pointing that firearm at another person
Ok got it, yes, I agree with that.
if you dont pull the trigger it's very very difficult to ND/AD.
How about all these ND's involving the SERPA holster? Did the Serpa pull the trigger? 2 lb or 10 lb ?, the trigger was stil pulled by the shooter.
I was at a training class yesterday where a guy ND'd with a SERPA and put a 9mm fmj through is calf. Was it the holster? NO. did he have his finger on the trigger and then pull it? YES.
I will agree the SERPA seems to create bad habits as is evident by the number of ND's involving this piece of gear.
francobx22
12-20-12, 07:39
if you dont pull the trigger it's very very difficult to ND/AD.
How about all these ND's involving the SERPA holster? Did the Serpa pull the trigger? 2 lb or 10 lb ?, the trigger was stil pulled by the shooter.
I was at a training class yesterday where a guy ND'd with a SERPA and put a 9mm fmj through is calf. Was it the holster? NO. did he have his finger on the trigger and then pull it? YES.
I will agree the SERPA seems to create bad habits as is evident by the number of ND's involving this piece of gear.
Lol I don't know why people still use that piss poor holster! Smh
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Right around 5lbs is the sweet spot for me. I like to feel some resistance as my finger is pressing the trigger rearwards. When the pull is too light, i feel like im not getting enough feedback and therefore i dont feel as much in control of when i want the break to happen. I prefer a smooth pull to a very light one. I dont like it to feel too easy. Definitely not less than 4lbs. A bit of pre travel is preferred as well. Im really digging the pull characteristics of my new improved all stock M&P 9 FS. The pre travel is less, the pull is smoother, lighter and the reset better than before S&W changed the triggers on some of the new M&P's.
I know the standard belief is that Glock does not require a manual safety and that a 1911 with its short and lighter trigger does.
My question is:
With the PPQ trigger, and other "light/short pre-travel" upgrades to triggers,
Where do you draw the line for when the trigger is TOO light and short for a non-range only gun? Should they merit a safety then?The Glock has the safety built in to the trigger mechanism! For a toy gun change parts as needed as a carry gun pretty much leave it as is.
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