View Full Version : Gen 4 G21, HK USP… Decisions
TheGhostRider
12-12-12, 15:25
Bought my 1st Glock in 1992... a G17. I put more rounds thru that pistol in the time I owned it than most shooters would in their life time. I still carry and shoot Glocks... a March of 04 G17 and a April of 09 19... my daily carry. Both are reliable.
I'm now looking for a full size true combat .45 acp that's not a Gov't model... I have 2 slab sides. A SA Loaded from 2001 and a bone stock RIA from around 2009. Both are reliable and I've shot the snot out of them... love'em.
But they each hold 7 rounds and don't have rails for lights.
Gen 4 G21... Holds 13 rounds, has swap able back straps to adjust fit, comes with three mags, and has a rail. It's a familiar platform for me. I shoot G's well and know that I will hit what I'm aiming for. Parts are easily sourced, after market sights are plentiful, mags are reasonably priced and available and carry ware is all over the place.
Then there's....
HK USP .45....
Considered by most HSLD types to be “the” go-to gun for reliable no compromise accurate work.
Mags are UN-reasonably priced (compared to similar capacity mags of other brands) and availability is more limited but they are available at 12 rounds. Has a bastard size rail that needs an extra part to mount my flux capacitor.
Carry options are out there but are more limited. Sights... not sure of the options.
Otherwise a damn fine pistol.
But the price.... my lord.
I can afford to purchase one or the other but not both.
I lean towards the Glock but...........
I'm leery of Glock quality control issues.
I would like to send Grant at G&R some more of my money and order one of his Gen 4 G21s, but I'm a little concerned about the reliability of the Glock.
I know that most of the problems are with the 9mm G's.
How about the G21's?
I have to have a RELIABLE .45... my life depends on it... but I'm not rich either.
With this said... I WILL spend the money on a good pistol so long as I'm getting the appropriate return for my investment.
I would like some real world experienced HSLD's opinion's on my concerns.
Grant... I highly value your opinion... what are you seeing out in the “real world”.
The rest of you HSLD guy's jump in here and tell me and the rest of the world what you would do.
Remember... lives will depend on this decision.
I have had excellent luck with two different G21's. Over 13,000 rounds of assorted ammo through them both, including several cases of old WWII surplus and Wolf steel cased stuff. I have never had a malfunction or stoppage other than when my wife runs one of them one-handed. She doesn't have the wrist strength to operate it without both hands on the gun. They are the most accurate .45 autos I have shot, other than a Springfield Pro that I no longer have. The Glock 21 is the only Glock pistol that I would not hesitate to buy.
I carry my Glock 21 in a IWB holster from Tommy Theis. It conceals as well as a full size M&P 9. I don't mind the extra weight at all.
I did not care much for the HK USP 45. The trigger reach is greater than the Glock 21, and the mag release is more difficult for me to operate. I never saw and advantage to buying one over the Glock 21. The HK45 is nice, but not worth the money IMHO.
About three dozen gen4 G21s running in 2 LE agencies are running without issue. IBOs, the smaller handed otherwise, and even the bigger guys report great satisfaction. Smaller sample sizes in other agencies are running as well.
I would choose the G21 for its existing familiarity, sustainability, and overall value. Mine like the 230gr GDHP and XTP best.
The HK is a high quality option worthy of a life support role. I have nothing to offer from a first hand perspective however, other than seeing a few here and there.
Worry less...shoot more.
Forgot to mention, many agencies here in Arkansas issue or have issued the G21 or Gen4 G21, including the Arkansas State Police. The officers that I know that carry one are very happy.
WickedWillis
12-12-12, 15:52
I personally cannot speak for the HK but I have heard the quality is legendary. I do however own a Gen 4 Glock 21 which I love. I have a few hundred rounds through it with NO problems, FTF, no Jamming or brass hitting me in the face whatsoever. If I had to stake my life, or another individuals life on that firearm I would. I have medium-small hands and it fits me great with the stock back strap on it. The new double recoil spring works well, but to be honest it does not feel that different over the Gen 3 spring.
The fourth generation Glocks only exhibited the problems in 9mm. The .40 cal Gen 4 Glocks are the best they've ever made, and the 10mm/.357 SIG/.45 ACP have not shown any of the problems.
Our dept issues G21s. I love it, and almost everyone's scores went up when coming from the G22.
I've owned and shot a wide variety of USP variants. I still hate the SA/DA platform, and would opt for a striker fired design every time. That said, HK builds nice, well engineered stuff, but I think the G21 will do what you need it to do better than a USP variant.
I have a Gen 3 g21 with around 600 rounds through it. I have medium sized hands and it feels like holding a 2x4, but for my dad with larger hands it fits him fine. It does occasionally send a casing to my forehead but I'm still a novice when it comes to hand guns. I had one incident where a casing flew right between my glasses and eyebrow.
I am of the opinion that the best quality duty use .45's are made by HK.
Neither weapon will let you down. Both are exceptional pistols and I think it really comes down to user preference. A close friend who carries a G21SF on duty always calls to remark how amazed he is when he takes his USP45 out to the range. He is always amazed by the accuracy mostly, but in general re-impresses himself every time. Carrying the HK on duty isn't an option for him. His USP is a Tactical, Match or Elite (forget which but its not the "regular" USP45).
If you want a consistant trigger press the USP can be carried cocked and locked. That's how I carry/shoot my USP9. If you're looking to try something new, then I believe you'll be very happy with the HK. Remember too the mag release is different on the HK from what you're used to. It doesn't take long to cross over IME, and I believe it's a faster setup. But it's different from what you've been doing.
That said, I'd nudge you towards the G21. You already have time and money into Glocks. You don't have to buy a rail adapter or proprietary light that limits holsters. And the overall cost is less with the Glock - from the weapon itself to mags, etc.
Failure2Stop
12-12-12, 18:34
HK USP 45 or the HK 45?
The HK 45 seems to be the best 45 on the market, while the USP 45 is far lower on the list.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
HK USP 45 or the HK 45?
The HK 45 seems to be the best 45 on the market, while the USP 45 is far lower on the list.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
And the HK45 eliminates the proprietary rail.
Serpico1985
12-12-12, 22:23
Ghost Rider,
Look at the HK45 instead of the USP 45. The HK45 is a more ergonomic evolved USP. It has a 1913 rail vs the proprietary HK rail that requires an adapter.
Besides that your looking at two guns (glock vs HK) that will both get the job done without issue. Other than being modern polymer framed double staked guns they don't really have anything else in common. Striker fired vs hammer fired, price, ease and cost of finding replacement parts goes to glock (although you can certainly find USP parts on a few websites). HK's are way more difficult to work on vs glocks (but doable with a little common sense and 8 hands). The HK will be inherently more accurate than the glock but not enough for %99 of shooters to exploit. HK's generally have a longer service life for parts (example: the recoil spring on the HK45 has a 20K round count life, insane) They're both reliable and they both have aftermarket support although glock has way more in this field than HK.
If you want to do some interesting reading get signed up on lightfighter and read through the HK45 thread over there (HK45-your experiences (http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/305102147)). There's info in there from nyeti who over the course of a decade was shooting around 50K per year through full size USP 45's in a official LE capacity. He's post's a lot of great info on how the HK's preformed.
Some more interesting reading is Todd Green's HK45 endurance test (http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/hk45).
You can't go wrong with either one.
Good luck!
Disclaimer: I own a HK P30 and HK45. I also own a G17 gen 4.
Wondering why the need for .45 in a "True "Combat" life defender. You have a 17 and 19. Not confident in 9mm or just wanting variety? Just curious. I'm tempted by the Gen 4 G21 too.
I have both a USP45 and Gen4 G21.
I have about 3.5k through the USP and only 1k through the G21.
So far, neither have had a hiccup. Both are more accurate than I am, but on SA mode using the USP, slow fire accuracy is a little bit easier to attain. Repeat shot capability is easier on the G21. The USP has more muzzle flip and slower cycling of the slide....seems more ponderous in a way.
I find the ergo's of the G21 prefereable. I love the USP I have, but I'm now used to pistols that have a high backstrap, which the USP doesn't have, and it feels a little awkward in some way. Reach to DA trigger is longer on the USP than the trigger on the G21.
Right now, of the four .45's I own (USP, Gen4 G21, M&P45, SA 1911 Loaded), I'm liking the Gen4 G21 the best.
ETA: As much as I like the G21 and the .45's in general, the cost of feeding them has become somewhat prohibitive. I find myself shooting almost nothing but 9mm these days.
LAV said his 'go to' gun for a .45 is anything by HK
Both are excellent guns. I have thousands of rounds experience with my Gen 3 G21, and it has truly performed flawlessly; I easily carry it in a Blade-Tech IWB holster, or a Glock Sport/Combat OWB holster.
As others have mentioned, HK makes superb guns. I would echo the recommendation of the HK45 over the USP.
The ergos on the HK45 are superior to those of the Glock, but you'll quickly adjust to the Glock if you choose it.
Since you already have Glock muscle memory/experience built up, and you sound satisfied with the platform, I'd recommend sticking with it (and saving a bunch of money, which can be profitably spent on training).
Best, Jon
Psalms144.1
12-13-12, 08:17
While I've switched platforms from the Glock to HK because of 9mm reliability issues, I would opt for the Gen4 G21 over the USP. Why? You already have plenty of trigger time on the Glock, you're familiar/comfortable with yours, and the Gen4 G21s seem to be the most "trouble free" Gen4 glocks out there.
The USP is going to be more accurate, but, how much more accurate? I would save the $400 or so in price difference, and put it towards ammunition and a training class using the new pistol.
I had a Gen4 G21 for a while, and found it to be utterly reliable, and plenty accurate for my needs. Not high-quality 1911 accurate, mind you, but still perfectly workable for a HD gun...
Regards,
Kevin
If I were to make a list of “combat” 45s I would choose, it would be:
1) USP45
2) G21, Gen4
3+) Don’t care…
I have a USP45 and it’s one of the most pleasurable guns to shoot. It’s smooth and crazy accurate. You mention your Glocks so that would be a good segway to a G21, but you also mention 1911s and the USP can be carried/kept in cond 1. I’ve heard nothing but good things about Gen4 G21s. I have a G4 G23 and it’s been great.
The USP does also need a rail adaptor, so add another ~$40 or so for the GG&G one (works great). I’ve currently got a holster being made for mine from Raven, otherwise I have to take the adaptor off before holstering. So, Glock will cost ~$200 less, come with an extra mag, has cheaper mags, and easier to obtain holsters.
However, I can’t help but recommend the USP. I would even recommend it over the HK45. Where the HK45 offers a nicer grip and standard rail, you lose two rounds capacity, which is important to me. IMO, the extra money spent up-front is a small percentage of the overall investment in owning a pistol, when you include the ammo price and training class(es).
My USP45 only has about 6k though it, but it did pass the 2,000 challenge and I used it in Costa’s HE2 three day class without cleaning or lubing it. I love it…
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d135/Talnz167/Cannons/PA095996b.jpg
HK every time. Especially against "new" Glock's. Nicest .45's on the market would be the HK45, USP45, and FNP45. Take your pick.
HK USP .45....
Considered by most HSLD types to be “the” go-to gun for reliable no compromise accurate work.
Mags are UN-reasonably priced (compared to similar capacity mags of other brands) and availability is more limited but they are available at 12 rounds. Has a bastard size rail that needs an extra part to mount my flux capacitor.
Carry options are out there but are more limited. Sights... not sure of the options.
Otherwise a damn fine pistol.
But the price.... my lord.
Could you reference those HSLD types? Your initial description is damning by itself. Factory support by HK has been hit and miss, when it is at it's best.
I tested the early HK USP .45 pistols and did not care fo the night sights visible at both ends, the de-cock when coming out of Condition 1 and the magazine release levers that did not care for some holster configurations as they dumped the magazine on the draw.
You've identified some other quirks of the USP and perhaps have already made the choice.
I've had a HK45, USP Tactical in 45, and a USP compact in 40. All were AMAZING guns, but I am switching to Glock. I have nothing bad to say about HK, but I am switching to 9mm and I can sell 1 HK, and buy 2 NEW Glocks. HK mags are ridiculously priced. You could almost buy 3 Glock mags for every 1 HK mag. Both are going to be far more accurate than you're going to be on your best day. IMHO both will be equally reliable. I just no longer see the need to spend the extra money to drink the HK coolaid...
.
I have to have a RELIABLE .45... my life depends on it... but I'm not rich either.
With this said... I WILL spend the money on a good pistol so long as I'm getting the appropriate return for my investment.
If reliability is your main concern get the HK 45. Not saying the gen4 g21 is not by any means.
If I were you I would get an HK 45 convert it to LEM, put some Heinie straight eights, some extra mags and be done with it.
A USP would be second choice. I have Glocks and HKs both are great.
Have you thought about an M&P 45? Compact, Mid Size or Full Size?
I have two mid size M&Ps, 10 round mags, shoots great, easy to carry, rail that fits X300 surefire easily, just a thought
Psalms144.1
12-14-12, 16:11
I've had a HK45, USP Tactical in 45, and a USP compact in 40. All were AMAZING guns, but I am switching to Glock. I have nothing bad to say about HK, but I am switching to 9mm and I can sell 1 HK, and buy 2 NEW Glocks. HK mags are ridiculously priced. You could almost buy 3 Glock mags for every 1 HK mag. Both are going to be far more accurate than you're going to be on your best day. IMHO both will be equally reliable. I just no longer see the need to spend the extra money to drink the HK coolaid...Best of luck to you brother. A lot of us are switching away from Glocks PRECISELY because a lot of their recent manufacture 9mms are exhibiting significant reliability issues. You might have noted an epic thread, or four, about this on this very forum...
WRT accuracy, I can say that, for me, the HK 9mms I own are noticeably more accurate than my Glocks ever were - to the tune of 6-18 points (out of 300) more accurate on my agency's qualification.
But, "to each his own" said the woman as she kissed the cow...
Regards,
Kevin
Gen 4 G21... Holds 13 rounds, has swap able back straps to adjust fit, comes with three mags, and has a rail. It's a familiar platform for me. I shoot G's well and know that I will hit what I'm aiming for. Parts are easily sourced, after market sights are plentiful, mags are reasonably priced and available and carry ware is all over the place.
I lean towards the Glock but...........
I'm leery of Glock quality control issues.
I would like to send Grant at G&R some more of my money and order one of his Gen 4 G21s, but I'm a little concerned about the reliability of the Glock.
I know that most of the problems are with the 9mm G's.
How about the G21's?
I have to have a RELIABLE .45... my life depends on it... but I'm not rich either.
Remember... lives will depend on this decision.
DocGKR, who's opinion I respect, among others have stated gen4 21 is gtg. Mine has been as flawless as my gen 2 Glocks and I shoot it well. Familiar territory for you so it does make sense. The grip is certainly an improvement.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g219/rocketmanmtb/984fe5a501a2674febe8e399afd37457.jpg
TheGhostRider
12-14-12, 21:19
I do appreciate all replies. Many different points of view for sure.
I've continued to read and do more research... talked to those who shoot the G21 and HK pistols for work and fun as well.
I've shot both pistols, I like both pistols. Both pistols performed without issue.
Based on parts and magazine availability and admittedly cost, I decided to invest in the G21 and the prerequisite 10 spare mags.
As I expected... I was more accurate with the G21 than the HK USP. I know I can get up to speed with the HK and practice but after having used Glocks for so long the transition to the larger caliber was cake. You know that muscle memory thing... Go with what you know.
I fingered a G21SF today at one of my LGS's....
OTD for 599.
Grip feels good but I want the reversible mag catch;
Pull the booger hook off the bang switch... push the mag button, insert new mag and carry on.
TheGhostRider
12-16-12, 18:33
Wondering why the need for .45 in a "True "Combat" life defender. You have a 17 and 19. Not confident in 9mm or just wanting variety? Just curious. I'm tempted by the Gen 4 G21 too.
Excellent question.
9mm is my everyday caliber and I have no problem carrying it. It will do the job quit nicely.
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