View Full Version : Role of the CCWer in Today's Society
After what happened yesterday and all this talk about a ban, let me pose a question for discussion among you guys.
Because of the recent mass shootings, and the political society we live in, do you feel as though your role as a CCWer has expanded?
Let me explain...
I was thinking of this this morning, and remember other discussions on this site about involving yourself in a situation where you have to use your CCW vs. getting your loved ones out of harms way and just "being a good witness". It seems as if the general consensus is that "being a good witness" was preferred in order to avoid all the legal process that you would most undoubtedly go through. To an extent I agree with that, but I have my own moral beliefs that conflict with just "doing nothing"....
HOWEVER, as of right now, if I am in a public place that allows me to legally carry my weapon and I hear shots fired, I don't know if I would have any choice but to end the threat as fast as I could. Even if I'm in another room, store in a mall, across a building, ect. I think I would do what I can to prevent another mass shooting...for more reasons than just moral.
I think that the same knee-jerk reaction that people are giving right now in regards to guns can actually be played to our side if we ever find ourselves in a position like this. If you, as a law abiding, responsible, CCWer were to thwart another mass shooting, or even possible mass shooting, I don't know that there's a jury in the country that would condemn your actions after what happened yesterday. I believe you would be aquitted, or not even charged with anything, and be called a hero for what you did (although I know that that's not WHY we would do it).
Think about it, all we have heard in the news lately about guns is that an active shooter killed a bunch of innocent people with evil high capacity, semi-auto weapons. It's all negativity! And those who aren't educated on the subject, can be easily swayed to thinking that more gun laws would have an impact on those bent on doing evil.
However, what if in one of these instances there was someone who responded with their own weapon, took down the active shooter, and saved a bunch of lives that day? I think this would be an incredible story that can be cited to prove the merit of personal ownership AND carrying of weapons for the purpose of self defense. As of right now, the former story being told far outweighs the latter story...in fact, I can't think of one instance where a CCWer was reported to stop an active shooter.
The reason I bring these thoughts up is so that maybe some of you can re-evaluate your role in this society as a CCW holder.
Burke's quote, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" can apply to our political society as well. If we are ever in a situation where we can intervene, yet do nothing, then we are not only allowing evil to triumph, but possibly HELPING close the door on our RIGHT to defend ourselves from enemies, foreign and domestic.
Just food for thought. Discuss.
sinlessorrow
12-15-12, 09:00
It has happened. The media never reports on it. I get that newsletter about things like this being stopped by gun owner and I had never heard of it before in the media.
Face facts the media twists stories to fit their agenda.
It has happened. The media never reports on it. I get that newsletter about things like this being stopped by gun owner and I had never heard of it before in the media.
Face facts the media twists stories to fit their agenda.
There is a lot of truth to that. Of course, if ccw people stopped more, they might not have a choice but to report it. Then again, a lot of ccw people never even shoot their guns, so it would be up to people more like us.
The next problem is, most of these happen at places where we are not allowed to carry, and often times during times and places that people of our mindset avoid.
Not me. If and when I carry a weapon, I do so to protect my life from lethal threat. I'm well-trained, but I'm not a cop.
Furthermore, given the absolutely abysmal state of training of the average CCW holder, sending them toward the sound of gunshots is, IMHO, a complete recipe for disaster.
I totally agree about the media. I am not fooling myself to believe that the MSM would report something positive about guns....BUT, if a CCWer were to intervene after the shooting had started, the media would HAVE to report something...especially if there had been some fatalities aside from the active shooter. I don't know, maybe I'm giving too much credit to the media.
As for an "average CCWer" running to the sound of gun fire being a diaster, I would like to think that even an average CCWer would be better trained than these idiots who just start shooting the place up. But that's my point about guys like us, who actually have training, being the ones that are NEEDED to intervene. And yes, I know we aren't cops, but as you can see from the recent events, cops can't be everywhere all the time and a response time of even 3-5 minutes can still mean MULTIPLE victims if there is no intervention.
As for an "average CCWer" running to the sound of gun fire being a diaster, I would like to think that even an average CCWer would be better trained than these idiots who just start shooting the place up. But that's my point about guys like us, who actually have training, being the ones that are NEEDED to intervene. And yes, I know we aren't cops, but as you can see from the recent events, cops can't be everywhere all the time and a response time of even 3-5 minutes can still mean MULTIPLE victims if there is no intervention.
The perpetrator in an active-shooter scenario has the advantage, so his level of training is immaterial. And no, the level of training of the average CCW holder is pretty much a joke. How many of them actually take defensive pistol courses beyond the state-required CCW course that often involves newbies and their first firearm and focuses on safety and self-defense law?
The concept of a CCW holder at the mall drawing his gun, running to the sound of gunshots, killing the perpetrator and being lauded as a hero is a fantasy that I suspect briefly goes through the mind of a lot of CCW holders every time they strap on. IMHO, it's just that...a fantasy with no basis in reality and trying to act on that fantasy on balance represents a real danger to themselves and others.
After what happened yesterday and all this talk about a ban, let me pose a question for discussion among you guys.
Because of the recent mass shootings, and the political society we live in, do you feel as though your role as a CCWer has expanded?
Let me explain...
I was thinking of this this morning, and remember other discussions on this site about involving yourself in a situation where you have to use your CCW vs. getting your loved ones out of harms way and just "being a good witness". It seems as if the general consensus is that "being a good witness" was preferred in order to avoid all the legal process that you would most undoubtedly go through. To an extent I agree with that, but I have my own moral beliefs that conflict with just "doing nothing"....
HOWEVER, as of right now, if I am in a public place that allows me to legally carry my weapon and I hear shots fired, I don't know if I would have any choice but to end the threat as fast as I could. Even if I'm in another room, store in a mall, across a building, ect. I think I would do what I can to prevent another mass shooting...for more reasons than just moral.
I think that the same knee-jerk reaction that people are giving right now in regards to guns can actually be played to our side if we ever find ourselves in a position like this. If you, as a law abiding, responsible, CCWer were to thwart another mass shooting, or even possible mass shooting, I don't know that there's a jury in the country that would condemn your actions after what happened yesterday. I believe you would be aquitted, or not even charged with anything, and be called a hero for what you did (although I know that that's not WHY we would do it).
Think about it, all we have heard in the news lately about guns is that an active shooter killed a bunch of innocent people with evil high capacity, semi-auto weapons. It's all negativity! And those who aren't educated on the subject, can be easily swayed to thinking that more gun laws would have an impact on those bent on doing evil.
However, what if in one of these instances there was someone who responded with their own weapon, took down the active shooter, and saved a bunch of lives that day? I think this would be an incredible story that can be cited to prove the merit of personal ownership AND carrying of weapons for the purpose of self defense. As of right now, the former story being told far outweighs the latter story...in fact, I can't think of one instance where a CCWer was reported to stop an active shooter.
The reason I bring these thoughts up is so that maybe some of you can re-evaluate your role in this society as a CCW holder.
Burke's quote, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" can apply to our political society as well. If we are ever in a situation where we can intervene, yet do nothing, then we are not only allowing evil to triumph, but possibly HELPING close the door on our RIGHT to defend ourselves from enemies, foreign and domestic.
Just food for thought. Discuss.
For starters:
Pearl HS Asst Principal Joel Myrick
Ogden City PD Officer Ken Hammond (understand he is LE, but was off duty)
Jeanne Assam, Security Volunteer at New Life Church in Colorado Springs
sinlessorrow
12-15-12, 09:47
Dodnt see this reported in the news... Oh no we cant have a gun looking good, looks like the reason he shot himself was because he was facing an armed citizen who had a CCW and was not afraid to use ot to save the life of others.http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html
SpookyPistolero
12-15-12, 10:00
Do the right thing.
To quote my mother, "The high road is never the wrong choice."
Doing the right thing includes fulfilling all of your responsibilities as an armed citizen. If you're going to attempt to enforce the law or view your role as that of Protector of Society, take it seriously. You do. I do. The average CCW holder does not. To say that our violent society expands the role of the CCW holder and enhances our "moral obligation" without expanding training obligation is a bad thing. Far better off using that fire extinguisher or fist.
Do you wait to ID your target? If you see a guy with a gun, do you wait to see what he does with it or shoot immediately?
What do you hope another ccw holder does when he turns a corner and sees you with gun drawn, pointing at someone that they might not be able to see?
Voodoo_Man
12-15-12, 10:11
Hate to use movie quotes but it may be applicable here, from the latest spiderman film:
"...if you could do good things for other people, you had a moral obligation to do those things. That's what at stake here. Not a choice, responsibility."
The perpetrator in an active-shooter scenario has the advantage, so his level of training is immaterial. And no, the level of training of the average CCW holder is pretty much a joke. How many of them actually take defensive pistol courses beyond the state-required CCW course that often involves newbies and their first firearm and focuses on safety and self-defense law?
The concept of a CCW holder at the mall drawing his gun, running to the sound of gunshots, killing the perpetrator and being lauded as a hero is a fantasy that I suspect briefly goes through the mind of a lot of CCW holders every time they strap on. IMHO, it's just that...a fantasy with no basis in reality and trying to act on that fantasy on balance represents a real danger to themselves and others.
Sad that you do have the training, yet would do nothing. Really sad. But it is your choice. Not mine.
Also, this "fantasy" that you scoff at may be a fantasy for some, but is a mindset for others. Everytime you carry, you have to prepare your mind to use the weapon you carry if necessary, otherwise don't carry at all.
Any adult American that encounters one of these mass shootings is honor bound to do the right thing and actively engage the threat whether that's with a firearm, a fire extinguisher, or a fist. If your family is there, direct them to safety and then go engage the threat. If you have the opportunity to end a situation like this, and you fail to do so, you will never be able to look at yourself in the mirror again or explain to your family why you selfishly let others die when you could have stepped up and done something.
A lot of what's wrong with this country is that people are obsessed with themselves as an individual. Self sacrifice is what built America. Self sacrafice is what will revive America.
I don't even like most people but I'll be damned if I will stand by and let them be slaughtered.
Do the right thing.
Thanks for posting Dave.
This is exactly the whole premise for the thread...aside from the political implications...
sinlessorrow
12-15-12, 10:37
What gets to me is when someone does act, like the Oregon mall shooting, no one ever knows. They play up the whole bad guy had a gun and leave out that someone stopped him with their own.
me knee-jerk reaction that people are giving right now in regards to guns can actually be played to our side if we ever find ourselves in a position like this. If you, as a law abiding, responsible, CCWer were to thwart another mass shooting, or even possible mass shooting, I don't know that there's a jury in the country that would condemn your actions after what happened yesterday. I believe you would be aquitted, or not even charged with anything, and be called a hero for what you did (although I know that that's not WHY we would do it).
They could/would condemn you because so far, to the best of my knowledge, all of these shootings have occurred in areas restricted by law from CCW.
If I was placed in a situation like you describe, I would like to think I would do the right thing and take down the threat. If doing so involves me serving a few years for possession of a firearm where prohibited, I could live with that knowing I saved people's lives.
sinlessorrow
12-15-12, 11:25
If you would have been carrying illegally in that school yesterday and would have killed that bastard, no jury in this country would convict you and almost no DA would indict you. Remember all 12 people on the jury have to vote to convict--- it would never happen.
My thoughts as well.
PA PATRIOT
12-15-12, 11:33
The difference between the good guys and the bad guys will be apparent by their appearance and demeanor. We're not talking about street thugs here but about absolutely deranged people.
If someone walks into the mall, a school, or a movie theatre with a long gun looking like they just cleared out the Blackhawk catalog you have a real clear answer. I could expand on that for paragraphs on end but you get the idea.
This is a very inaccurate statement as in many smaller jurisdictions the rapid response members maybe off duty responding to a active shooter event. They will equip from call out bags and may only be dressed in civilian attire and what appears as Black hawk style vests, helmet and a long gun which can mimic your loose description of a active shooter.
Target identification is a absolute must for anyone who intervenes in a crisis situation to prevent friendly fire incidents and to link with other friendlies for a coordinated response.
If you have the ability and the capacity to act but don't, I hope you can live with yourself. If you can't, that burden is yours to bear alone. :(
montanadave
12-15-12, 11:44
Seems to me that if a civilian CCW holder was at the scene of one of these shootings and made the decision to take action against an active shooter, he'd better act damn fast and put his weapon on the deck. With the events of late, when LEOs arrive they are going to put somebody holding a weapon down like a mad dog. And I certainly wouldn't fault them for doing so.
Not saying a person shouldn't act to protect others. But I can't see how it would end well once things get a little crowded.
This is a very inaccurate statement as in many smaller jurisdictions the rapid response members maybe off duty responding to a active shooter event. They will equip from call out bags and may only be dressed in civilian attire and what appears as Black hawk style vests, helmet and a long gun which can mimic your loose description of a active shooter.
Target identification is a absolute must for anyone who intervenes in a crisis situation to prevent friendly fire incidents and to link with other friendlies for a coordinated response.
Lets face it, these active shooter situations only last minutes for the most part, unless it turns into a hostage situation. So if you are in the vicinity and respond to the threat, it will be LONG before any LE arrives in tactical gear. By that time I would be holstered up and back to grey man and come forward to police when the scene is secured.
Another CCWer or off duty LEO responding the same time as you is an entirely different matter that can be what-if'd to death.
Bottom line is if you intervene in a situation like this, be smart about HOW you do things before, during, and after those first few minutes. Being aware of people around you and vocal about you being the good guy is also something that I see as "common sense" actions that could prevent friendly fire.
Interesting topic for sure and one that will go on forever.
For me, my main responsibility is to protect my wife and two little boys. My next responsibility is to get home alive to them.
Does that mean that I run away from a fight that is happening right in front of me? No, I don't think so.
Personally, had I been at that school (dropping my child off or whatever), I would have sent my child to the car with my keys and cell phone and told them to call 911. I would have then entered the school and dealt with the shooter as best I could. Even though this violates my main rules (listed above), I simply cannot fathom the idea of 5yr olds getting slaughtered. So for me, there will always be "exceptions."
Many Christians and non-Christians ask; "If there is/was a GOD, why does he allow these types of things to happen." I often think GOD's reply (at least to me) would be; "I gave you the money and time to attend some of the best firearms and tactics schools in the World. I gave you the dexterity to be a fantastic shooter and the mental ability to make split second decisions under stress. WHY DID YOU NOT SAVE MY CHILDREN??
The above is a very sobering thought for me. YMMV.
C4
This is a very inaccurate statement as in many smaller jurisdictions the rapid response members maybe off duty responding to a active shooter event. They will equip from call out bags and may only be dressed in civilian attire and what appears as Black hawk style vests, helmet and a long gun which can mimic your loose description of a active shooter.
Target identification is a absolute must for anyone who intervenes in a crisis situation to prevent friendly fire incidents and to link with other friendlies for a coordinated response.
I understand what you are saying, but the shootings (or most of them) are done in under 2 minutes. If you are in the mall and hear shooting 100yds from you, NO COP responding to a 911 call is going to beat you there. So as Pennington stated, the odds are VERY GOOD that the person that looks like a Blackhawk catalogue threw up on them is going to be your huckleberry.
C4
HOWEVER, as of right now, if I am in a public place that allows me to legally carry my weapon and I hear shots fired, I don't know if I would have any choice but to end the threat as fast as I could. Even if I'm in another room, store in a mall, across a building, ect. I think I would do what I can to prevent another mass shooting...for more reasons than just moral.
I'd be concerned someone else with a gun (police or civilian) might mistake you for another badguy if you're maneuvering around with your weapon drawn. Just something to consider.
Mauser KAR98K
12-15-12, 12:20
I'd be concerned someone else with a gun (police or civilian) might mistake you for another badguy if you're maneuvering around with your weapon drawn. Just something to consider.
Hopefully it should be evident that there is shooting going on and your not the one doing, nor you are the one shooting at innocents as they run PAST you.
Can you be mistaken? Yeah, shit happens, get over it. Be tactical of your approach to stop the REAL bad guy.
The comments about responding LEO's is valid. If you're going to run towards the sound of gunfire, so will others. For that reason, be quick and be decisive. By decisive I mean make sure that prick is down for the hard count, whatever that takes. If you try to hold a wounded active shooter at gunpoint, you're probably gonna get shot. :(
Every situation is going to be different. What if I have my kids with me and I have an opportunity to step in and prevent death? Thats just one situation. I will do my best when the time comes. Thats all anyone can do.
My thought is this.
1. I am not a cop or LEO, but I couldn't stand by and watch some whacked out asshole murder innocent people. Any other situation (i.e.- domestic BS, petty theft, robbery, or whatever I am not intervening).
2. Unless you have some training and you are prepared MENTALLY to die and even more importantly to take a life you should simply move to protect your family and yourself first.
3. Situational Awareness is a key element in everyday life and people need to start practicing it more.
Reagans Rascals
12-15-12, 16:24
No.... if you have the ability to prevent or lessen the the threat presented, you have a moral and ethical obligation to intercede...
if you are the only person trained in CPR and someone goes down, you have an ethical and moral obligation to provide assistance...
so thus... if you are the only person present with the right mindset and training to dispatch an armed threat, you have a moral and ethical obligation to protect the flock...
simply being "a good witness" is bullshit thought up and furthered by lawyers and other legal minded people in efforts to cover their own ass..
I know I personally would rather go down swinging, than live the rest of my life in shame always knowing I could have saved lives and I was too much of a puss to do it...
in fact... I just heard about a man that was arrested because he took video of the man that was pushed on to the subway tracks and was trying to pull himself out but was struck and killed by the train... the asshole had the time to take the video... then he had the time and moral obligation to provide assistance...
If you are with your family... neutralizing the threat at hand is the fastest way to keep them safe...
remember... the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing...
I know this isn't popular, but I carry a gun to protect my wife, family, myself, and to a lesser degree my property. Leaving my faily without a provider or leaving them undefended to run towards gunfire that I know nothing about.
I'm not a chest-thumper. I'm realistic enough to understand that CCW won't stop all (or even most) crime. I think we should be able to carry a gun because it is our right.
I'd render medical assistance on the side of the road to a complete stranger. Getting into an altercation with a stranger can be confusing. Thre are just as many bad guys shooting bad guys than bad guys shooting good guys. Frankly, I'd rather not get involved in the former.
PA PATRIOT
12-15-12, 17:41
I stand by my statement that the overall appearance combined with demeanor and actions will make it very clear if someone is an active shooter. You can tell who is (relatively) professional and who is an active shooter.
I'm watching the news right now and not a one of those cops, even in plain clothes, would be confused for a crazed gunman.
The Blackhawk catalog comment was probably a bit glib but, when combined with the persons overall demeanor and actions, you know what I mean. I worked exclusively plain clothes/light undercover for years and you can look at the overall picture and tell the good from the bad. Additionally, we aren't talking about a plain clothes guy trying to hold someone at gunpoint we are talking about some nut who is there to kill as many people as possible.
I'm at a real keyboard now so I can state my thoughts with a bit more clarity. Basically, you can be pretty certain that someone is or is about to be an active shooter, that you should be trying to stop, if:
-you are in a public place where firearms aren't expected (a mall, a school, a church, a theatre)
-someone is acting strangely with long guns in hand, an unholstered handgun, multiple guns in hand, or multiple guns visible
-someone is showing a lack of muzzle discipline (not low ready, not being professional, etc); wildly or recklessly pointing weapons at random people
-someone is dressed in "combat/tactical gear" or a costume
-someone is making "crazy" or threatening statements
-someone is randomly firing a weapon
Obviously, the last example of someone shooting at random people is a no brainer.
Lacking active gunfire, if you are eating at the food court, sitting in church, watching a movie, or dropping the kids off at school and someone matching the above profile comes running by you can be pretty damn certain that the person is neither a LEO or a good samaritan. This is within the first minute or less of an incident. As has been stated by others, this is the time to act decisively and get done what you have to get done. The most common response to these flashing red indicators is to not believe that it's actually happening--- if you see the above, it's happening.
If an active shooter incident has been going on for a few minutes you are way late to the game and it's going to be over. At that point someone with a long gun and "tactical gear" is almost certainly a responding LEO.
My statements about "just knowing" are meant for the first minute of an incident not for 5 minutes in when you see armed people moving about.
Your chances of being injured or killed by the gunman or responding LEOs is pretty high. Common sense and pre-planning can help mitigate that but it's damn dangerous either way around. It is what it is at that point.
I'll stand by my opinion that your first statement was to vague and may seed the mindset that if it "Just" looks like a bad guy then it must be.
I would suggest anyone in such a situation use great caution and not to act rashly based on what others may post on the internet as it can lead to very poor decision making and have grave consequences.
That said your second statement was more direct in offering obvious characteristics of a possible active shooter. We must remember that all the members here on M4 have different levels of training and competency with making tactical decisions during a time of great stress and those persons may literally take comments posted in this threads as the only course of action without considering other possibilities.
Also some say there will not be enough time for L/E's to respond to a crisis situation but I have to offer that indoor shopping malls and schools are very large complexes and a event maybe occurring in another part of the premise which you the armed citizen may not be a ware of. Also remember that nut cases will also make multiple 911 calls stating a event is occurring even tho nothing is happening (I am sure some remember the recent fake swat call outs) so arriving police who maybe off duty rapid response or in smaller towns even reserve L/E members maybe seen armed and moving quickly Thu a mall or school.
My question is to all CCW's who wish to immediately engage a armed person in a public place (Who is Not actively shooting just armed) how would you challenge them? If one points a gun at a responding plain clothes officer or another CCW they may likely think you are the shooter the event is based on. Depending on the officers tactical situation he may just turn and fire at the sight of your firearm or challenge you back, and there is no saying how another armed CCW is going to respond to your challenge. Who is going to back down and disarm or are you going to shoot it out in a crowded public location?
There are many facet's to such a encounter which really need to be considered before one decides to intervene.
HOWEVER, as of right now, if I am in a public place that allows me to legally carry my weapon and I hear shots fired, I don't know if I would have any choice but to end the threat as fast as I could. Even if I'm in another room, store in a mall, across a building, ect. I think I would do what I can to prevent another mass shooting...for more reasons than just moral.
I am in no way OBLIGATED to put myself at risk for anyone other than those I am responsible for. But that doesn't mean I won't. This is extremely situation dependent.
Many Christians and non-Christians ask; "If there is/was a GOD, why does he allow these types of things to happen." I often think GOD's reply (at least to me) would be; "I gave you the money and time to attend some of the best firearms and tactics schools in the World. I gave you the dexterity to be a fantastic shooter and the mental ability to make split second decisions under stress. WHY DID YOU NOT SAVE MY CHILDREN??
The above is a very sobering thought for me. YMMV.
C4
I get what you are saying. And if I was alone and didn't have to get my family out safe, I'd probably do something incredibly stupid like hang my own ass out in the wind, especially if I knew I was the only one who was going to stop some shitbag from shooting kids. And it wouldn't be concern for answering to a higher authority that would make me do it.
But I cannot state how extremely disappointed I'd be to learn that "I" was god's "instrument" and that this was part of "the plan." If there really is a creator, I think my expectation bar is set a bit higher. An omnipotent creator of everything certainly has greater capability to rescue kids than having a CCW just happen to be there.
My question is to all CCW's who wish to immediately engage a armed person in a public place (Who is Not actively shooting just armed) how would you challenge them? If one points a gun at a responding plain clothes officer or another CCW they may likely think you are the shooter the event is based on. Depending on the officers tactical situation he may just turn and fire at the sight of your firearm or challenge you back, and there is no saying how another armed CCW is going to respond to your challenge. Who is going to back down and disarm or are you going to shoot it out in a crowded public location?
There are many facet's to such a encounter which really need to be considered before one decides to intervene.
Why would you want to engage an unknown subject not actively engaged in committing violence just because they're armed? In my state its covered in mandatory CCW class that your license doesn't give you that latitude. In order to come to an unknown person's aid with a CCW firearm, you have to intentionally disregard that edict. I'm not saying you should never do it, but you'd better be damned sure you're right about who the violent felon is.
In the case of someone actively shooting random people in a mall, school or other well populated public place, I think that's actually a pretty easy call.
It has happened. The media never reports on it. I get that newsletter about things like this being stopped by gun owner and I had never heard of it before in the media.
Face facts the media twists stories to fit their agenda.
This.
A story in which two innocent people were shot, and then a hero comes along and shoots the scumbag before he can shoot more, is not as exciting as a story where a gunman successfully kills 16 people. These media assholes look for the most shocking and run with it
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