View Full Version : Introduction; John Thomas of Retro Arms Works
Larry Vickers
12-15-12, 18:23
Gents
It's time to let you in on a little secret I recently discovered - searching other forums and various places on the Internet I happened to stumble across the guy we have all been waiting for ; the Neo or Chosen One for Retro AR's
His name is John Thomas a recently retired career Air Force veteran ( which is fitting due to that service being the first to adopt the AR15 in sizeable numbers ) and his business is Retro Arms Works
He builds museum quality replicas of early AR's - and trust me when I tell you museum quality; I have seen several of the guns he builds clones of in the KAC collection ( the worlds finest AR collection) and John's clones are superb
I am going to highlight Johns work on TacTV next season as he is building me a clone of Armalite AR15 serial number 000003 from the Black Rifle book ( pages 76,68, and 69) - I'm confident it won't be the only early replica he builds for me
Expect John to pop on here soon to post pics- stand by cause his stuff is dynamite
Enjoy the view.....
LAV
Larry, thanks very much for the kind words, and for steering me to this group. It is greatly appreciated, but don't get too carried away, you'll make my head swell up.
Anyway, some photos of my work follow, but I can't take the credit for all of the work. I'm fortunate to have a great engraver that helps me out tremendously on my projects. Beyond that aspect, I anodize, parkerize, mount front sight bases, pin/weld muzzle devices, shorten/thread barrels, reprofile barrels, modify and make parts in the spirit of the early rifles, apply the mottled brown finish to stock sets, apply "601 green" to stock sets, and a lot of "custom-type" request work.
Enjoy the photos, and if you have questions, you can contact me at: jntmjt1@yahoo.com
(Just as a side note, everything pictured below is non-NFA, what appears to be an auto-sear pin is actually just a circle stamped in the surface of the lower)
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Prototype%20000007/9.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Prototype%20000007/13.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Prototype%20000007/19.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/05Rightside.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/601brown12.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Worn%20601/4-1.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/606/P1250625.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Colt%20608/P1280033.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Canadian%20C7/16.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Stevens77right.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/July%202011%20shooting/606-4.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/M231%20replica/P1320615.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/M231%20replica/P1320620.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/605B/03.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/4-1.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Three%20prototypes/8.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Three%20prototypes/12.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Three%20prototypes/31.jpg
David Thomas
12-15-12, 19:38
Very cool. I look forward to seeing more of your work.
I'm very happy to see you here. I've followed your work elsewhere and it's nothing short of impressive.
Excellent work for sure. Looking forward to that episode.:cool:
KalashniKEV
12-16-12, 11:18
Beautiful work.
What model does the "Shop Test Only," L1A1 carry handle rifle replicate?
Wow, absolutely gorgeous work. I think I will be in the market for some of your work.
Beautiful work.
What model does the "Shop Test Only," L1A1 carry handle rifle replicate?
Thanks very much. That rifle you ask about is just a "concept" rifle I made up. No such thing ever existed. I call it (and engraved it) an "AR-14". I made it up in the spirit of some of the early AR10 designs. Fun stuff! That rear sight elevation knob is a G3 cocking tube end cap.
John Thomas
Where did you engrave your info on those guns?
Where did you engrave your info on those guns?
My information is engraved in front of the trigger on the underside of the lower. You can see the engraving if you look closely at the photo below:
John Thomas
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Worn%20601/17-1.jpg
I don't usually cry when I see guns, but the works of art here brought the tears out.
Are you related to Rembrandt?
7.62WildBill
12-16-12, 16:28
Outstanding craftsmanship! Thank you for sharing.
Crap.... A thread that should have been entitled... Dravur signs over his payroll checks to.....John
I love these builds! My jealousy level is right through the roof :)
I do have a question.... Do you make the "Faux Moderators" for an XM177 type build? I am looking for an accurate representation. I also would love to send my new Carbine build over for re-anodizing as the parts don't match up.
Also... Are there plans on making small parts for sale... like dimpled pins etc?
Crap.... A thread that should have been entitled... Dravur signs over his payroll checks to.....
I love these builds!
I do have a question.... Do you make the "Faux Moderators" for an XM177 type build? I am looking for an accurate representation. I also would love to send my new Carbine build over for re-anodizing as the parts don't match up.
Also... Are there plans on making small parts for sale... like dimpled pins etc?
Thanks very much. I can help you out with your requests, and I do make the small parts for sale, but please email me at jntmjt1@yahoo.com for details.
Beautiful work!
What's the cut-down minimalist AR in the 'survival' bag? I've never seen one like that before.
I love the "Retro Dissipator" and the M231 is just gorgeous.
Beautiful work!
What's the cut-down minimalist AR in the 'survival' bag? I've never seen one like that before.
I love the "Retro Dissipator" and the M231 is just gorgeous.
Thank you... the survival rifle is a model 608 replica. About 10 were made, and they were considered for use as an aircrew survival rifle. None were ever fielded.
The "retro dissipator" is a model 605B replica. The first of the carbines. Some were actually issued and used in extremely small numbers by SEALs and other special operations-type guys. There were reliablility concerns so the carbine was not officially adopted for service in any numbers. I open the gas port on the 605 replicas to a specific diameter and have had no reliablity issues with mine, nor any negative reports from customers. The flash hider is also permanently attached so the barrel length meets the 16" requirement. Another interesting fact about the 605B was it had a 4-position selector... safe, semi, auto, and at the 6:00 position was burst.
You may have also noticed the rifle that my wife is shooting has a M14 bipod attachment. This is not just an A1 with a bipod. It is a model 606 replica. It used the M14 bipod with special adapter as shown, it had a nylon buffer (which I replicated as well), and a heavy barrel. It's actually a really nice shooter. The 606 was tested for military use, but not adopted.
The M231 replica was a real challenge. I had to farm out the work on the front collar, but beyond that, the fire control group on the authentic M231 is completely different than that of the M16 (it fires from an open bolt). As a result, on the M231, there is no hammer pin as the M16 has. So, to make my replica as authentic as possible, I had to make a self contained "hammer/trigger pack" that fits down in the receiver. So, there is no need for a visible hammer pin on the replica. Yeah, I know, I'm nuts... I also had to make the authentic "fat head" style trigger pin, and a fake "fat head" sear pin head is actually attached to the selector plate, It is the head of the pin only, and doesn't enter the lower at all. If you remove the selector plate, the fake pin head comes off with the plate. As you can see, the M231 has no sights at all. Tracers were used to "walk" the projectiles onto the target. Since that isn't too practical, especially with a semi auto, I have an Armson OEG (retro "red dot" type sight), that easily mounts to the carry handle, so I can still shoot the gun with some accuracy.
Thanks again,
John Thomas
SeriousStudent
12-17-12, 21:03
Mr. Thomas, thank you for taking the time to post your work. It truly is art.
Mr. Vickers, thank you for introducing him to us.
Thank you... the survival rifle is a model 608 replica. About 10 were made, and they were considered for use as an aircrew survival rifle. None were ever fielded.
The "retro dissipator" is a model 605B replica. The first of the carbines. Some were actually issued and used in extremely small numbers by SEALs and other special operations-type guys. There were reliablility concerns so the carbine was not officially adopted for service in any numbers. I open the gas port on the 605 replicas to a specific diameter and have had no reliablity issues with mine, nor any negative reports from customers. The flash hider is also permanently attached so the barrel length meets the 16" requirement. Another interesting fact about the 605B was it had a 4-position selector... safe, semi, auto, and at the 6:00 position was burst.
You may have also noticed the rifle that my wife is shooting has a M14 bipod attachment. This is not just an A1 with a bipod. It is a model 606 replica. It used the M14 bipod with special adapter as shown, it had a nylon buffer (which I replicated as well), and a heavy barrel. It's actually a really nice shooter. The 606 was tested for military use, but not adopted.
The M231 replica was a real challenge. I had to farm out the work on the front collar, but beyond that, the fire control group on the authentic M231 is completely different than that of the M16 (it fires from an open bolt). As a result, on the M231, there is no hammer pin as the M16 has. So, to make my replica as authentic as possible, I had to make a self contained "hammer/trigger pack" that fits down in the receiver. So, there is no need for a visible hammer pin on the replica. Yeah, I know, I'm nuts... I also had to make the authentic "fat head" style trigger pin, and a fake "fat head" sear pin head is actually attached to the selector plate, It is the head of the pin only, and doesn't enter the lower at all. If you remove the selector plate, the fake pin head comes off with the plate.
Thanks again,
John Thomas
I could have sworn I've seen your M231 somewhere else before, maybe another forum?. It's an enormous undertaking, and an incredible result. That kind of innovation, skill and dedication is praiseworthy. On a related note... that buttstock really looks like it was the inspiration for AAC's "Honey Badger" PDW, at least in the locking mechanism and buffer tube.
Thanks for the info on the M605B and M608. I'm not up to speed on all the early AR variants, but I find it fascinating to learn about them. Maybe I should start by expanding my Collector Grade library out of the WWII era :)
... Maybe I should start by expanding my Collector Grade library out of the WWII era :)
For any of you guys that are interested in these types of guns, I highly recommend the book "The Black Rifle." As with any publication, there are a few mistakes here and there that have been pointed out, and the organization is a little tough to follow, but the information in the book is really, really good and in depth. I'm sure many of you have the book, but I want to recommend it to those who don't.
John Thomas
Mr. Thomas, thank you for taking the time to post your work. It truly is art.
Mr. Vickers, thank you for introducing him to us.
Although it isn't AR15 related, some of you may appreciate another replica that I made (pictured below). From the Cold War era, it is a replica of an uncommon military issue pistol, the Hi-Standard HDM, silenced pistol. It was used by the OSS, and other "special" individuals.
John Thomas
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/HDM%20replica/P1320633.jpg
SeriousStudent
12-18-12, 00:15
Although it isn't AR15 related, some of you may appreciate another replica that I made (pictured below). From the Cold War era, it is a replica of an uncommon military issue pistol, the Hi-Standard HDM, silenced pistol. It was used by the OSS, and other "special" individuals.
John Thomas
You are psychic. I had an uncle that had a Hi-Standard, and my grandfather had a Colt Woodsman. When I was a lot younger, we'd go walking on the ranch, and they'd shoot rabbits with them.
That was my first real introduction to pistol marksmanship. Sadly, both of those fine gentlemen are gone, and so are their pistols.
But you bring back some fond memories. Thank you for that.
Out of curiousity, is that a slide lock on the Hi-Standard, to help lower the audible signature? It was a long time ago, but I am honestly not sure I remember my uncle's pistol looking like that. That was a long time ago, and I was just a boy. I could easily be wrong.
Thank you again for the photo, and the interesting props in it.
Out of curiousity, is that a slide lock on the Hi-Standard, to help lower the audible signature? It was a long time ago, but I am honestly not sure I remember my uncle's pistol looking like that.
Thanks again... that is not a slide lock, it's the slide take down lever. I think the first US military silenced pistol to use the slide lock like you asked about was the S&W Mk22.
There were many, many variations (models) of the Hi-Standard .22s, and several of these looked similar to each other with minor variations. Perhaps your Uncle had a different model. As far as I know the only models used by the military were the HDM and maybe a handful of the Model B.
Sorry I have derailed the AR15 discussion.
John Thomas
Sorry I have derailed the AR15 discussion.
John Thomas
Most of us love all guns, except for maybe Kel-Tec. :sarcastic:
xjustintimex
12-21-12, 11:21
So cool! Where does one get a wire collapsable stock that slides past the buffer tube? Was that a common stock?
So cool! Where does one get a wire collapsable stock that slides past the buffer tube? Was that a common stock?
That stock assemly was custom made. As you indicated, there are aftermarket buffer tubes around that extend past the wire stock when the stock is collapsed, but the M231 used a special tripple spring setup (spring, inside a spring, inside another spring, guided on a rod) that allowed for a much shorter buffer tube. My replica has a short buffer that actually protrudes into the rear of the bolt carrier. To take the gun apart, the buffer has to come out the rear of the tube (by means of an end cap that unscrews) before you can pivot the receiver open.
On the "real" M231, the wire stock was a short-lived feature. Shortly after development they got rid of the wire stock all together.
A picture of the special buffer is below:
John Thomas
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/231buffer_zps294dc130.jpg
sinlessorrow
12-22-12, 13:13
I would love to have one of those top charging models.
Cool.
I could see myself blowing some money on an A1 clone.
Magic_Salad0892
12-23-12, 05:03
So... these are functioning firearms?
So... these are functioning firearms?
Absolutely!
John Thomas
OK. Wow.
I'm usually totally not into retro AR's, or retro firearm builds in general, but like Mr. Vickers said, those are so authentic they look like they were taken from a museum. They're so pretty I'd almost feel bad for touching them without white gloves, lol.
Truly beautiful work! I look forward to seeing more in the future.
And thank you for the history lessons, too. Very informative.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
alvincullumyork
01-04-13, 23:15
How did you make/where did you get the top charging handle upper receiver?
Very cool by the way!!!
How did you make/where did you get the top charging handle upper receiver?
Very cool by the way!!!
Thank you very much. The top charging handle uppers are made by a company called NoDak Spud. They are very nice parts as is, but I do make some minor modifications so they better match the "slab side" lowers.
John Thomas
Magic_Salad0892
01-08-13, 02:53
Absolutely!
John Thomas
Interest peaked.
alvincullumyork
01-09-13, 12:42
Thank you very much. The top charging handle uppers are made by a company called NoDak Spud. They are very nice parts as is, but I do make some minor modifications so they better match the "slab side" lowers.
John Thomas
Thanks for the info. Very cool indeed.
[QUOTE=jntmjt1;1472372]Although it isn't AR15 related, some of you may appreciate another replica that I made (pictured below). From the Cold War era, it is a replica of an uncommon military issue pistol, the Hi-Standard HDM, silenced pistol. It was used by the OSS, and other "special" individuals.
John Thomas
I very much appreciated this thread, thanks for sharing. Looking at the retro AR's was like taking a trip back in time, and very much resembled the models I've admired in "Military Small Arms of the 20th Century." .. The suppressed High Standard HD has always intrigued me. Nice work!
thanks john for the awesome work on my stock set, got allot of ooohs, what is that...at the range today:) and allot of compliments on the work done to the handguards. will be sending in another set for some OD. my pics will show different shades of the color from out in the sun/shade/flash from camera. heres a llink to his websitehttp://www.retroarmsworks.com/
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/043_zps24dd87b2.jpg
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/021-1_zps81a14e19.jpg
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/023-1_zpsf8bb5b7c.jpg
flash
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/042-1_zps997789ea.jpg
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/045_zpsa35e1d57.jpg
Larry Vickers
02-11-13, 07:50
Well I just got back in town and got my retro prototype AR built by John - I must say it is smoking' !! And once a light coat of Ballistol is applied over the whole weapon it looks even better than in the pics !!
Watch for it this year on TacTV - I'm definately going to do a segment highlighting this build
Very cool blaster all the way around !!
chosinsteve132
03-03-13, 16:14
What is the timeline and turnaround for a clone of choice these days? Also, thanks LAV for your service and for introducing me to the retro AR's!!
Some of John's handywork. Larry, did you ever take pictures of your build?
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/486915_4843104922877_828767240_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/21678_4843105042880_1013796794_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/424790_4843104842875_354699057_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/600381_4843104762873_1590561825_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/255038_4843104522867_1483093461_n.jpg
Original #2 AR15
http://www.megpro.com/ar/tech/serial2.jpg
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-04-13, 15:19
Oh. My. God.
This level of workmanship and detail is incredible. The research alone is mind boggling. Totally agree with your assessment of TBR...one of the greatest firearms books ever published. Truly outstanding and a real reminder of what the AR actually was in the beginning. Hard to imagine a weapon sexier than those earliest proto AR15s. Thanks for the photos.
Nice work. Wow, when I finish some of my other projects I will definitely do work with this guy
Wow! Beautiful stuff, I am guessing there are some 177s in the collection, or perhaps as future builds? (Always wanted a nice accurate XM-177 clone).
Any 607's?
I am working on a 607 (and a 609) right now for my personal collection. Unfortunately, I won't be able to complete them any time soon, since I'll be on hold for the SBR Form 1 for many months.
John Thomas
well my first attempt at a "601" replica and to top it off with john thomas awesome "601" green furniture....thanks John. some pics
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/image_zps2160bf86.jpg
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/image_zps0647d6ec.jpg
my a2 sporting the mottled brown furniture
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/image_zps1973707c.jpg
Have you consdered doing any C7/8 clones
Have you been getting any upper receivers from nodak lately? I want a retro slickside upper for a super kiss dissipator build, but they haven't offered anything on their website in a while. From what I hear, they can get Anchor Harvey to produce their forgings for them as they are too busy producing flattop uppers forgings ever since the big panic buying started.
Have you consdered doing any C7/8 clones
I do have an early C7 replica. Photos are below (since the photos, I've installed the correct sling)
John Thomas
2209822099221002210122102
Have you been getting any upper receivers from nodak lately? I want a retro slickside upper for a super kiss dissipator build, but they haven't offered anything on their website in a while. From what I hear, they can get Anchor Harvey to produce their forgings for them as they are too busy producing flattop uppers forgings ever since the big panic buying started.
The NoDak receivers are still being made, but there is a considerable wait time. I have to get on their back order list just like anyone else.
John Thomas
I do have an early C7 replica. Photos are below (since the photos, I've installed the correct sling)
John Thomas
2209822099221002210122102
That is beautiful. Very nice.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/Worn%20601/4-1.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/M231%20replica/P1320620.jpg
This with this would be AWESOME.
Thank you very much. The top charging handle uppers are made by a company called NoDak Spud. They are very nice parts as is, but I do make some minor modifications so they better match the "slab side" lowers.
John Thomas
I hate photo bucket! I can not see any if your work. As a kid one if my favorite toys wat a spring loaded top changing M16 it made a wicked racket when you pulled the he trigger. I think it even sparked!
http://www.retroarmsworks.com
Dionysusigma
11-18-17, 11:22
Necroposting a 4yr old thread to... complain about a Photobucket policy from July...? :confused:
Necroposting a 4yr old thread to... complain about a Photobucket policy from July...? [emoji782]
I used the search function after another member here suggested Retro Arms Works for pinning a flash hider. I'd never heard of him. The point of the forum is to share information and have fun. That's what I was doing. If it bothers you just move along. Do you have anything helpful to add to the discussion?
Yes I hate photo bucket. Take a look at this forum and many others. They've made many posts useless. I found his website and even shared a link so folks could see his great work.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Renegade04
11-18-17, 18:09
I used the search function after another member here suggested Retro Arms Works for pinning a flash hider. I'd never heard of him. The point of the forum is to share information and have fun. That's what I was doing. If it bothers you just move along. Do you have anything helpful to add to the discussion?
Yes I hate photo bucket. Take a look at this forum and many others. They've made many posts useless. I found his website and even shared a link so folks could see his great work.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
John Thomas is very good at what he does. He is highly respected and recommended on other forums and FB groups. I have had work done by John and it was impeccable. He really brought my 607 clone upper assembly up to snuff. His work is spot-on and his turn-around time is very quick. BTW, The December issue of Firearms News will feature some of his work as it is a Retro Edition. This is how good he really is.
John Thomas is very good at what he does. He is highly respected and recommended on other forums and FB groups. I have had work done by John and it was impeccable. He really brought my 607 clone upper assembly up to snuff. His work is spot-on and his turn-around time is very quick. BTW, The December issue of Firearms News will feature some of his work as it is a Retro Edition. This is how good he really is.
The photos on his page are amazing. I am glad I've heard about him.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
sundance435
11-29-17, 08:38
Just sent a package of parts off to John for an Israeli-type upper. I'll report back once I receive it. What I can say so far is that his comms are excellent and his prices are very reasonable.
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