View Full Version : Hypothetical...Would You Intervene In A School Shooting...?
I realize this is an unlikely scenario, but whenever I see a story about a tragedy like the CT school shooting a big part of me wishes I could have been there to try and stop it.
Obviously if you are a LEO you would probably end up responding to such a situation so this is mostly for the non LEOs.
Assuming a basic scenario:
You live or work near the school and have either a CCW, a trunk gun or both.
Your child has just called you to tell you that someone is currently shooting people at their school and he is hiding in a bathroom. Assume it is a Middle or High School.
It is reasonable to assume the school would be on lock down, however it is likely that there could be a forced entry used by the shooter.
So you have the opportunity to arrive before any other responders given your current proximity to the school. You have a means to intervene and attempt to rescue victims and / or confront the shooter or shooters.
There is of course a number of things that can easily go wrong and they are a serious consideration.
1. You could be mistakenly identified as "the shooter" by responding officers. In addition to potentially being targeted by those officers, you may draw resources away from those responders who could otherwise be confronting the actual shooter or shooters and / or rescuing victims.
There is a STRONG possibility that school students and faculty will assume you are a shooter and provide your description and location to responders. It might also prove extremely difficult to rescue students who will likely assume you are a shooter. And in your attempts to convince people you are there to help them, you may draw the attention of the actual shooter or shooters and put those you are trying to help at greater risk.
2. You might mistake first responders who may not be in uniform as the shooter or shooters. If the shooter or shooters happen to be students of the school you may have a great deal of difficulty in recognizing who is a threat and who is not.
But with those risks in mind I have to imagine if given the opportunity it would be extremely difficult for some people to not attempt to help, especially if they believed they might be the only one who can protect their kid "right now."
So what would you do? How would you attempt to do it? What would you do to minimize the potential problems of any action?
Alaskapopo
12-16-12, 00:56
I realize this is an unlikely scenario, but whenever I see a story about a tragedy like the CT school shooting a big part of me wishes I could have been there to try and stop it.
Obviously if you are a LEO you would probably end up responding to such a situation so this is mostly for the non LEOs.
Assuming a basic scenario:
You live or work near the school and have either a CCW, a trunk gun or both.
Your child has just called you to tell you that someone is currently shooting people at their school and he is hiding in a bathroom. Assume it is a Middle or High School.
It is reasonable to assume the school would be on lock down, however it is likely that there could be a forced entry used by the shooter.
So you have the opportunity to arrive before any other responders given your current proximity to the school. You have a means to intervene and attempt to rescue victims and / or confront the shooter or shooters.
There is of course a number of things that can easily go wrong and they are a serious consideration.
1. You could be mistakenly identified as "the shooter" by responding officers. In addition to potentially being targeted by those officers, you may draw resources away from those responders who could otherwise be confronting the actual shooter or shooters and / or rescuing victims.
There is a STRONG possibility that school students and faculty will assume you are a shooter and provide your description and location to responders. It might also prove extremely difficult to rescue students who will likely assume you are a shooter. And in your attempts to convince people you are there to help them, you may draw the attention of the actual shooter or shooters and put those you are trying to help at greater risk.
2. You might mistake first responders who may not be in uniform as the shooter or shooters. If the shooter or shooters happen to be students of the school you may have a great deal of difficulty in recognizing who is a threat and who is not.
But with those risks in mind I have to imagine if given the opportunity it would be extremely difficult for some people to not attempt to help, especially if they believed they might be the only one who can protect their kid "right now."
So what would you do? How would you attempt to do it? What would you do to minimize the potential problems of any action?
I realize I am a leo but I do keep a spare vest and a long gun in my vehicle just in case there is an active shooter when I am off duty so i will have more than just my pistol. The vest is clearly labled police. I would call 911 and leave the line open as I went in. Of if I am responding to assist an on duty officer I could communicate through the cell phone via speaker phone. I work in a small enough town I would recognize any responders who are leo. Priority one would be to find the shooter and take him out.
If you were a CCW holder I would strongly advise calling 911 and giving them your description so you are not shot by responding officers. Although they are going to tell you to stand down.
Pat
Bolt_Overide
12-16-12, 02:16
I suppose it would depend on how far away I was and how far away it seemed LE response was.
If I were to do it, the very least I would do is follow Pat's suggestion and stay on the line with 911, make sure they have my description, and if I were to encounter an officer, not waste time trying to explain I was a good guy, just get the **** down and do whatever makes him/her happy.
This is actually a reality in many rural and semi-rural areas of Alaska. While the State Troopers have an office less than 1/4 mile from our middle/high school, there is often only 1 officer on duty and he may be 60 miles away. If one of my kids called I would be on the way. In many places in Alaska troopers might be hours away and local non-LEO resources might be the only choice.
What about keeping one of these nearby?
http://www.dsmsafety.com/leosa.html
If I was going to lie about it I might as well get a "Police" windbreaker and put it in my emergency bag.
If I was going to lie about it I might as well get a "Police" windbreaker and put it in my emergency bag.
Well they make those sashes that say Police, CCW, Security, etc
Another thing you need to remember is all these type events here in the US usually follow the same SOP by the bad guy. You also have to think outside the box somewhat if you are to be mentally prepared for tomorrow's active shooter attack. Once some dipshit with half a brain decides to get online and do some prior research, then change up his tactics (and I am not going to list out things that I have heard/discussed with others to avoid giving ideas), you yourself may fall prey to him understanding the first responders actions.
For a non-LEO, hell even for an off-duty LEO friendly fire in these shootings is just as much of a danger as the perp. Still I could not sit by. I'd say if you live in a small community, get to know your local LEO's personally prior, as well as any state guys. Them knowing your face may help out, but would be damn near impossible in a large population area. I personally feel the CCW Badges are a bad idea for daily carry, but in a situation like this, one on a chain around the neck would be better than nothing. The only downside is a perp can easily buy one too.
Just remember, if you do ever find yourself in one of these situations, don't assume it will be one or two nut cases who will fold and suck start their own pistol upon contact. You might draw the short straw of finding yourself in the one where the perp(s) brought their A game. Just because you hear gunfire on the other side of the school doesn't mean there isn't someone waiting to pop whomever he sees pulling on scene.
Mauser KAR98K
12-16-12, 08:08
Steyr, the situation you described leaves out the distance of where you are and school. If the distance is over a mile, I don't think you would be any faster in responding than a code 3 LEO. Now if you are RIGHT THERE dropping off your kids because they were late, or picking them up, that is totally different.
We relay to much on our Law Enforcement Community and laws that we neglect to prepare the people who are actually there at the moment of crisis. Do we need both, yes (to an extent on the law part that clearly did nothing to prevent these last two shootings). But we need to realize that no matter what we do to prevent these situations, they are still going to happen.
So, stopping the carnage as it goes forward:
Call 911 and explain everything and that I am going to try to attempt to stop the shooter.
Yes, if I was close, and I did not hear any sirens wailing in the distance at the time, I would be making careful to get to the school to STOP THE THREAT. It may not be a threat to me, but it is a threat to society, and to us as gun owners inevitably. Granted that I am prior LE, and I was raised in a LE environment when I was very young and could clear houses and buildings before I was 12, but this should not be a issue with people who have not experienced this (though it does help). I know what to look for in situations like this, discerning threats from non-threats: good-guys to bad guys.
Nonetheless I would be finding an entry point, probably the same one the active shooter has used, using maximum cover and going to the sounds of the shooting. Once contact is made I will engage the threat. This is when the target ID is in fact clear it is the mass murder.
From here than manner of engagement is going to determine the distance between me and the shooter, what is going on around us (kids running and screaming). If we are close, and with confidence, I will be doing a failure drill on this guy because I am not taking any chances if he is in fact wearing armor of some kind. I could careless at this point of what a DA or lawyer will say. I just brought a second gun into the equation and I am going to make damn sure this psychopath isn't going to get it. If the distances is father I will be taking my time, but I will be shooting at the bad guy. it draws attention from his intended victims to me, and those bullets either he shoots at me, or pumps in me are those bullets not being used to kill someone's little girl, and hopefully it has bought first responders more time to get to the situation.
But even with this sencerio there are way to many variables to can happen. I urge that we have create guidelines of what are response will be in order to get the right guy and to achieve the right outcome. These are hypothetical situations that are determined on past events not the evolution of some psychotic retards thinking and planning. Could there be a second shooter involved? yes, anything is possible, but this is why we are careful making our way to the situation. The majority of people have this notion that the police bum rush in and save the day, but they don't know that LE is methodically clearing the school as fast as they can in case of a second gun ready to shoot them and get their weapons, radios, and body armor to increase the carnage.
But all this does nothing to escape the fact that unless you were right there in the school, in the classroom, you can not stop these guys from starting the event. And it also does nothing that we can not be there all time. Such is the same problem with LE these days thanks to economy and budget problems.
What needs to happen is America needs to get over the fact that schools and other public gatherings are some sacred places that violence will never enter into these bubbles. Throughout history, even as far back as the late Middle Ages, bad people violate these sacred places. Even with the evolution of modern society, bad people violate these sacred places. No where is safe; it never has been safe. The way we can make things a little safer is deterring bad guys from doing these things. CCW laws have shown to decrease crime in states that have enacted them because it does make it a guessing game from the aspiring and career criminals of who is a willing victim and who is not. We need this guessing game to go into our public schools by first training and arming our teachers who want to. People have this hard time of guns being ever present in the class, but the is because it is considered taboo to wear a gun out in the open unless you are law enforcement. (course concealed is always concealed).
If we are going to talk mental issues, then this is the first step, getting over this safe place bubble and sacred environments. We need to stop making better victims first. We need more fighters. I feel those that do fight back (Flight 93 and others), are a growing exception in our society.
I realize I am a leo but I do keep a spare vest and a long gun in my vehicle just in case there is an active shooter when I am off duty so i will have more than just my pistol. The vest is clearly labled police. I would call 911 and leave the line open as I went in. Of if I am responding to assist an on duty officer I could communicate through the cell phone via speaker phone. I work in a small enough town I would recognize any responders who are leo. Priority one would be to find the shooter and take him out.
If you were a CCW holder I would strongly advise calling 911 and giving them your description so you are not shot by responding officers. Although they are going to tell you to stand down.
Pat
Thank you for that info. I do think a discussion on what a civi CCW should do, minus the BS, ninja talk, and chest thumping (as I have see on some other forums, etc), could be very helpful info.
These are highly dynamic situations so obviously impossible to give exact advice, but even dial 911 and give them your description and other general and essential info could save the person and responders their lives, etc.
The last thing you want is to end of being part of the problem for first responders vs the solution dividing their attention and resources potentially allowing the active killer additional time and targets
I can't comment on whether going toward the event, or standing down if/when told by 911 is the "right" decision, but I'll leave what a teacher I know wrote after VT tech:
"A terrible tragedy. I know, I teach on college campus.
Once he starts to act, the only thing that can stop a single, psychotic killer who is willing to die is the rapid delivery of counter fire by whoever is near. Cop, civilian, it doesn't matter who or their job status. The more people who are nearby and capable of delivering return fire, the fewer and less serious the injuries (there's criminological data on this).
Virginia Tech. is a "gun free" zone guaranteeing that the psychotic killer had the only gun. He came prepared. He waited until there were no police in sight and then commenced his murderous acts certain that he would encounter no effective resistance. And , he didn't.
Twenty-one innocent* dead because there was no one capable of fighting back. All they could do was cower or run". - Professor Joseph Olson, J.D., LL.M., Hamline University School of Law
* = was the number being reported at the time of the writing, but of course it ended up being far more.
ICANHITHIMMAN
12-16-12, 09:52
NO! For the simple reason that the police will most likely shoot me before I could stop it I am not LE so I am not allowed to carry in a school. They don't know who you are and even an off duty officer runs the potential risk of being shot in plain cloths. These are high stress situations, I believe that schools need armed security factored into their budgets. Every school in my area has a local LE officer assigned in case such an event unfolds but its unlikely as we have seen, that they will be there when or in time to stop anything, its just not feasible.
My mother works at the high school I attended, Although it is possible to sneak in when a door is opened. In general the school is locked to everyone from the out side. There are alarms on every door but that in its self is still not enough.
Mauser KAR98K
12-16-12, 09:57
NO! For the simple reason that the police will most likely shoot me before I could stop it I am not LE so I am not allowed to carry in a school. They don't know who you are and even an off duty officer runs the potential risk of being shot in plain cloths. These are high stress situations, I believe that schools need armed security factored into their budgets. Every school in my area has a local LE officer assigned in case such an event unfolds but its unlikely as we have seen, that they will be there when or in time to stop anything, its just not feasible.
My mother works at the high school I attended, Although it is possible to sneak in when a door is opened. In general the school is locked to everyone from the out side. There are alarms on every door but that in its self is still not enough.
Didn't stop Adam.
NO! For the simple reason that the police will most likely shoot me before I could stop it I am not LE so I am not allowed to carry in a school. They don't know who you are and even an off duty officer runs the potential risk of being shot in plain cloths. These are high stress situations, I believe that schools need armed security factored into their budgets. Every school in my area has a local LE officer assigned in case such an event unfolds but its unlikely as we have seen, that they will be there when or in time to stop anything, its just not feasible.
Agreed on all points. I would never enter and attempt to clear a school with a firearm (edited to clarify) during an active shooter situation. I would only intervene with a firearm if the shooter is outside similar to the Sikh Temple situation, and moving toward me. There is a big difference between an armed security guard who is already inside and familiar with the school, and citizen running into an unfamiliar building with a gun.
Voodoo_Man
12-16-12, 10:14
+1 for never being part of the problem.
I know people have a feeling that when/if this goes down and you are close by you will have less than a milisecond to respond, it may be the case, but it may also be the case where you have time to call 911.
Make sure to call 911, make sure to tell them who you are, what you are wearing and what you are trying to do. There needs to be record of it somewhere.
NO! For the simple reason that the police will most likely shoot me before I could stop it I am not LE so I am not allowed to carry in a school. They don't know who you are and even an off duty officer runs the potential risk of being shot in plain cloths. These are high stress situations, I believe that schools need armed security factored into their budgets. Every school in my area has a local LE officer assigned in case such an event unfolds but its unlikely as we have seen, that they will be there when or in time to stop anything, its just not feasible.
If the situation is unfolding right before you, that's one thing. Otherwise, you will most likely be adding to the problem. Like Pat stated, I would most definately call 911, let them know who I am, my description and intent. Here's some food for thought:
http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/articles/6023151-Badge-placement-affects-survival-odds-for-plainclothes-cops/
It's LEO related, but might give you an idea of how easy it is to be misidentified, then shot.
Steyr, the situation you described leaves out the distance of where you are and school. If the distance is over a mile, I don't think you would be any faster in responding than a code 3 LEO. Now if you are RIGHT THERE dropping off your kids because they were late, or picking them up, that is totally different.
I didn't want to put a specified distance because in some locations you could be a mile away and still beat the first responders. So lets just say close proximity with the likelihood that you are actually in a position to get there first.
Agreed on all points. I would never enter and attempt to clear a school during an active shooter situation. I would only intervene if the shooter is outside (think Sikh Temple) and moving toward me. There is a big difference between an armed security guard who is already inside and familiar with the school, and citizen running into an unfamiliar building.
So just to be clear, if your kid called you from inside and you were at the stop sign on the corner have just made a coffee run, and you were clearly in a position to be there first, you wouldn't make the attempt?
Not trying to trick you up, just want to make sure you have the same answer for a worst case scenario.
I don't like saying what I would or would not do in a life threatening situation since I've never been in one. However, I'd like to think that I'd do everything I can to help no matter what the situation is if I'm alone. I won't have kids for several more years (hopefully) so I won't go there, but I'd never intervene for strangers if my girlfriend was with me. As bad as that sounds, if I did something to put her in harms way and something happened, I don't know that I'd be able to handle that.
but I'd never intervene for strangers if my girlfriend was with me. As bad as that sounds, if I did something to put her in harms way and something happened, I don't know that I'd be able to handle that.
There is absolutely noting wrong with that.
This is something I've asked myself many times, but since we can't carry here my only option would be grab weapons from home and head over. Obviously by the time I got there it would probably be flooded with police, so unless there was a Belsan type scenario where some of the attackers were flushed out into the community and for a time overwhelmed the first responders I would almost certainly only be a hazard.
But even a Belsan type scenario would be difficult, as if I recall some of the spec ops troops were accidentally killed by armed civilians responding to the school with weapons.
I just pray it never comes down to making such a decision.
So just to be clear, if your kid called you from inside and you were at the stop sign on the corner have just made a coffee run, and you were clearly in a position to be there first, you wouldn't make the attempt?
Not trying to trick you up, just want to make sure you have the same answer for a worst case scenario.
Correct. As a civilian, I'm not taking a firearm into the school where I run the risk of hitting kids in a firefight or getting shot by the police. I would however enter with my collapsible baton that I keep in the side compartment of my car door to save my child. Could I get shot? I very likely could. Might I get killed? I just might. Would I enjoy every second of bludgeoning the ****er to death? Yes, I would indeed.
Correct. As a civilian, I'm not taking a firearm into the school where I run the risk of hitting kids in a firefight or getting shot by the police. I would however enter with my collapsible baton that I keep in the side compartment of my car door to save my child. Could I get shot? I very likely could. Might I get killed? I just might. Would I enjoy every second of bludgeoning the ****er to death? Yes, I would indeed.
Wait, so if you run in with the baton you have no chance of being shot? And should we now abandon the idea of protecting people with our firearms because someone other than the bad guy might get hurt?
Correct. As a civilian, I'm not taking a firearm into the school where I run the risk of hitting kids in a firefight or getting shot by the police. I would however enter with my collapsible baton that I keep in the side compartment of my car door to save my child. Could I get shot? I very likely could. Might I get killed? I just might. Would I enjoy every second of bludgeoning the ****er to death? Yes, I would indeed.
Ok noted. I don't completely agree with your reasoning but everyone has to do what they believe is the best course of action. I do accept your concerns.
Personally if I made the decision to go in, I'd much rather run the risk of getting shot by responding officers than put myself at risk from the shooter or shooters by going in without a means to effectively confront the shooter.
There is obviously no "one size fits all" perfect answer that applies to every situation.
Wait, so if you run in with the baton you have no chance of being shot? And should we now abandon the idea of protecting people with our firearms because someone other than the bad guy might get hurt?
While I'm probably more in line with what you are thinking. When a guy is risking his own life to help others, he has to do what he thinks is best for him. Doing things in a way you aren't confident about can result in very negative results. And probably something is better than nothing.
The school principal ran to the shooter completely unarmed and was killed in the process. You and I might find her efforts futile. But it remains possible her actions permitted a few more doors to be locked or a few more people to escape. And I'm not gonna fault anyone for "trying." I might wish they had better success or a better means to stop the shooter, but I'll never fault them.
Wait, so if you run in with the baton you have no chance of being shot? And should we now abandon the idea of protecting people with our firearms because someone other than the bad guy might get hurt?
I listed 2 reasons why I would not carry a gun into the school as a civilian: 1) risk of mistaken identity, and 2) risk of injuring a child. Number 2 is my greatest concern given that every wall likely has a kid behind it. I don't need to miss since any shot could over-penetrate and kill a kid. In addition, school active shooter scenarios are not something that I train for with a firearm at the moment. However, I have plenty of experience using my hands, feet, and baton in very, shall we say, intimate situations. I'm confident that I could use these tools with minimal bystander risk.
Alaskapopo
12-16-12, 17:43
I listed 2 reasons why I would not carry a gun into the school as a civilian: 1) risk of mistaken identity, and 2) risk of injuring a child. Number 2 is my greatest concern given that every wall likely has a kid behind it. I don't need to miss since any shot could over-penetrate and kill a kid. In addition, school active shooter scenarios are not something that I train for with a firearm at the moment. However, I have plenty of experience using my hands, feet, and baton in very, shall we say, intimate situations. I'm confident that I could use these tools with minimal bystander risk.
Unarmed skills are great but fairly useless against a shooter who is 30 feet down the hall from you shooting. A for over penetration job one is killing the shooter all else is secondary. Make good hits but focus not on over penetration but rather on ending the threat as soon as possible so he can't kill anymore.
Pat
I am a teacher.
I personally think that any intervention from outside the school would be a mistake. Hopefully if someone has time to call they are locked down in classrooms and such, most schools have a procedure for this and schools generally have pretty solid doors. Also, most police departments have a plan for such situations, ours moves through the school at least once a year I think. Throwing yourself into the equation makes their job harder.
Of course, neither you nor he police will likely be able to respond fast enough to prevent an active shooter from doing what he wants.
The best solution is let teachers who want to to carry, carry. Perhaps with some airline pilot type training.
When I imagine such a situation I end up dying at the door of my classroom wishing I had broken the law an worn my gun to work. It is a personal nightmare that I have lived through over a dozen times this weekend.
The only thing that will ever prevent someone willing to commit violence is someone who stands ready to stop it. The only school shooting that ever ended in a way other than what the shooter intended was stopped by a school employee with a gun.
Alaskapopo
12-16-12, 18:00
I am a teacher.
I personally think that any intervention from outside the school would be a mistake. Hopefully if someone has time to call they are locked down in classrooms and such, most schools have a procedure for this and schools generally have pretty solid doors. Also, most police departments have a plan for such situations, ours moves through the school at least once a year I think. Throwing yourself into the equation makes their job harder.
Of course, neither you nor he police will likely be able to respond fast enough to prevent an active shooter from doing what he wants.
The best solution is let teachers who want to to carry, carry. Perhaps with some airline pilot type training.
When I imagine such a situation I end up dying at the door of my classroom wishing I had broken the law an worn my gun to work. It is a personal nightmare that I have lived through over a dozen times this weekend.
The only thing that will ever prevent someone willing to commit violence is someone who stands ready to stop it. The only school shooting that ever ended in a way other than what the shooter intended was stopped by a school employee with a gun.
We have a school resource officer program so likely he will be there fast enough to end the situation as fast as can be expected and he will be better equipped and trained than a teacher with just a CCW pistol. However I am not against arming teachers so long as they meet minimal training standards.
pat
Unarmed skills are great but fairly useless against a shooter who is 30 feet down the hall from you shooting. A for over penetration job one is killing the shooter all else is secondary. Make good hits but focus not on over penetration but rather on ending the threat as soon as possible so he can't kill anymore.
Pat
I'm responding to the specific scenario provided where I, as a civilian in a states where I go to prison for bringing a gun on school property, just dropped my kid off at school and witness an active shooter force his way into the building. Your comments are valid for a LEO responding to the shooting, but that mentality will not work FOR ME if I kill someone else's kid.
If it's right there I'd probably try to intercept an active shooter. If I wasn't on site but nearby and was called, I'd go to the scene and if a lone officer arrived 1st, try to link up and provide him with backup (if he'd allow it). Otherwise I'd try to assist in the evacuation and render 1st aid, along with keeping non-combatants from entering the scene.
We're all pretty much Alpha males and it's tough to take a back seat, but sometimes it's the best option. :(
We have a school resource officer program so likely he will be there fast enough to end the situation as fast as can be expected and he will be better equipped and trained than a teacher with just a CCW pistol. However I am not against arming teachers so long as they meet minimal training standards.
pat
Our school resource officer covers the entire district, and I would bet serious money I know tactics better and shoot better than her. Of course I am an unusual teacher in that regard. Finding the right teachers would be much less likely in elementary schools.
This is something that needs to be investigated and planned for district by district and school by school. Of course it will most likely only draw an inane and useless response at the federal level.
Alaskapopo
12-16-12, 18:38
I'm responding to the specific scenario provided where I, as a civilian in a states where I go to prison for bringing a gun on school property, just dropped my kid off at school and witness an active shooter force his way into the building. Your comments are valid for a LEO responding to the shooting, but that mentality will not work FOR ME if I kill someone else's kid.
It is certainly better than doing nothing and your right with current laws you can't be armed on school grounds. I am glad you have the resolve to face armed gunmen unarmed.
Pat
I am a teacher.
The best solution is let teachers who want to to carry, carry. Perhaps with some airline pilot type training.
I am not against arming teachers so long as they meet minimal training standards.
pat
Here's what I wrote on another forum on this subject (with the excellent end quote I cribbed from WillBrink):
They can't be armed without training and coordination. Not effectively or safely that is. Even volunteer watch persons would require the same. In a perfect example, the community itself would set the policies and procedures, using guidelines promulgated by personal security professionals. I specifically point to personal security professionals because neither the police nor most security are trained in response and protection for individuals. Most security is trained to protect property and police are trained to process crimes and protect themselves. Having worked in all three fields, I have a unique frame of reference for that assessment.
When discussing armed security in a school setting, you're essentially talking in-place VIP protection. Your VIP’s are the children and to a certain extent, unarmed adults who comprise the potential victim pool. Security of the property itself is only relevant in the context of advancing security for the principals (protected persons, not school administrators in this context). Due to the nature of the setting and environment, weapons control, accountability and deconfliction are critical elements of a successful plan. TTP’s have to be developed, coordinated with local law enforcement agencies and practiced. Hardly any school is going to spend much if any money on the project, so it would require volunteers willing to spend time, money and effort on it. A perfect model would be the TSA Federal Flight Deck Officer Program as administered by the TSA Office of Law Enforcement. All FFDO’s are volunteers who spend their own time and money to get training and remain current.
The only relevant question is whether our school children are valuable enough to make the effort worthwhile. We tend to guard our money and gold with armed men. We tend to guard our children with words and signs. Priorities of the damned if you ask me. :(
Armed or not the only way that I would intervene in ANY active shooter situation (mall, school, hospital, concert......) is if it unfolded before my eyes. Showing up after the fact poses a number if problems. 1) you would have to be able to correctly interpret and truly ****ed up situation and not engage the wrong person. Your are arriving after the fact and discerning who is who without any back ground information is going to be impossible. 2) you are most likely going to add to the confusion and possibly divert desperately needed resources away from dealing with the actual threat to dealing with you.
I carry to help the situation by allowing me access to another tool, not to make things worse. IMO rushing into an unknown situation has more potential for making things worse than helping. Is this an opinion based in fact and experience? THANK GOD, NO so YMMV.
Magic_Salad0892
12-16-12, 19:14
Yes. I'd blame myself for the rest of my life if I knew I could've done something, and I didn't.
Could I get killed? Yep.
But I guess that's the price of saving other people isn't it?
As soon as I heard sirens, I'd holster my weapon and identify myself immediately. Shooter still active or not.
Cagemonkey
12-16-12, 19:23
Yes. I'd blame myself for the rest of my life if I knew I could've done something, and I didn't.
Could I get killed? Yep.
But I guess that's the price of saving other people isn't it?
As soon as I heard sirens, I'd holster my weapon and identify myself immediately. Shooter still active or not.I agree. Well said. People always want to add crazy hypotheticals to the question. I doubt your going to make things worst for the victims.
Yes, its my job.
P.S. you probably wouldnt hear sirens. I wont speak for all of the LEO's out there but id probably cut them off a few blocks away. I'd rather get the drop on the POS shooting than the other way around. No reason in announcing "HEY I'LL BE PULLING UP SHORTLY MR. GUNMAN".
Yes, its my job.
P.S. you probably wouldnt hear sirens. I wont speak for all of the LEO's out there but id probably cut them off a few blocks away. I'd rather get the drop on the POS shooting than the other way around. No reason in announcing "HEY I'LL BE PULLING UP SHORTLY MR. GUNMAN".
Just so long as you are wearing your seat belt.
:D
Figured we could use a little levity. Been kinda bleak lately.
I'm responding to the specific scenario provided where I, as a civilian in a states where I go to prison for bringing a gun on school property, just dropped my kid off at school and witness an active shooter force his way into the building. Your comments are valid for a LEO responding to the shooting, but that mentality will not work FOR ME if I kill someone else's kid.
So you want to save the lives of children by confronting and armed gunman while essentially unarmed. And you want to use a baton because it's legal and you think the police won't shoot you.
Now we are assuming of course that you'll be wearing a windbreaker with "Don't Shoot Because I'm A Good Guy And My Dark Colored Weapon Is A Relatively Harmless Baton" written on it, correct? And as you throw your gun to the ground while running inside and a bystander asks why, you hurriedly yell back "Because it's not allowed on school grounds!"
I know that comes off as a bit harsh and certainly I admire your intent not to harm an innocent, but to be honest it's just not at all feasible. Personally I'd take my chances with the gun.
I take the risk of hurting innocents every time I strap on my CCW gun. I don't think I'd think of it much differently in a school than I do in a mall.
The only school shooting that ever ended in a way other than what the shooter intended was stopped by a school employee with a gun. Actually that wasn't the only one. http://www.k-state.edu/wwparent/programs/hero/hero-pro-ryker.htm I can only hope my son would act in the same way.
So you want to save the lives of children by confronting and armed gunman while essentially unarmed. And you want to use a baton because it's legal and you think the police won't shoot you.
Now we are assuming of course that you'll be wearing a windbreaker with "Don't Shoot Because I'm A Good Guy And My Dark Colored Weapon Is A Relatively Harmless Baton" written on it, correct? And as you throw your gun to the ground while running inside and a bystander asks why, you hurriedly yell back "Because it's not allowed on school grounds!"
I know that comes off as a bit harsh and certainly I admire your intent not to harm an innocent, but to be honest it's just not at all feasible. Personally I'd take my chances with the gun.
No, I want to save MY child - not necessarily confront the shooter. Remember, the situation was that I just dropped off my kid. Other children being saved would be a nice side effect if the opportunity presented itself. Sorry if me selfishness rubs you the wrong way.
No, I want to save MY child - not necessarily confront the shooter. Remember, the situation was that I just dropped off my kid. Other children being saved would be a nice side effect if the opportunity presented itself. Sorry if me selfishness rubs you the wrong way.
This isn't directed to you or anyone else specifically. But can we please not use this "thought exercise" as a reason to criticize each other.
We have enough dissension currently over a very real matter on another thread, I'd hate for this one to create further division.
We've managed to have some useful discussion on this topic with a lot of people weighing in with good ideas and suggestions. More importantly it has allowed some people to think about what they would actually do or try to do when faced with such a situation. And that is better than having to think about it for the first time because it's actually happening.
I know that comes off as a bit harsh and certainly I admire your intent not to harm an innocent, but to be honest it's just not at all feasible. Personally I'd take my chances with the gun.
I agree with Safety. If for whatever reason you choose to intervene in this type of situation, leaving the best tool for the job behind might not be a good choice.
No, I want to save MY child - not necessarily confront the shooter. Remember, the situation was that I just dropped off my kid. Other children being saved would be a nice side effect if the opportunity presented itself. Sorry if me selfishness rubs you the wrong way.
Even if that's your goal, think of it this way. A baton is an impact weapon. There's nothing that says you can't use a gun the same way and only fire if you're in breathing distance to the shooter. Yet it's going to be considerably more effective at the same range as a baton would.
Even if that's your goal, think of it this way. A baton is an impact weapon. There's nothing that says you can't use a gun the same way and only fire if you're in breathing distance to the shooter. Yet it's going to be considerably more effective at the same range as a baton would.
Sadly taking a gun into a "school zone" has been made enough of a genuine concern that some people will risk a great deal to avoid prosecution. Looks like violation is a felony which could result in loss of rights to own firearms.
No kid, single young male.
If I'm at a place and a shooting is going on, I'm going to do something about it. I'd rather take friendly fire then live knowing that I should have done something. Just pray that God doesn't let that happen.
Sadly taking a gun into a "school zone" has been made enough of a genuine concern that some people will risk a great deal to avoid prosecution. Looks like violation is a felony which could result in loss of rights to own firearms.
Understood, but if you save the day there's not a jury in the world that would convict and few elected DA's that would try.
Sadly taking a gun into a "school zone" has been made enough of a genuine concern that some people will risk a great deal to avoid prosecution. Looks like violation is a felony which could result in loss of rights to own firearms.
School shooting incident = dire, life threatening emergency when my child my die = **** worrying about possibly losing my rights and thank God I've got this gun.
Understood, but if you save the day there's not a jury in the world that would convict and few elected DA's that would try.
I wouldn't want to bet actual money on that.
And much more likely that even if you rescued a few people, you'd be criticized for a great and many things. Look at how many CCW guys who intervene at robberies get thrown under the bus.
I'd hope nothing would happen to somebody who did what they felt was necessary to help.
I wouldn't want to bet actual money on that.
And much more likely that even if you rescued a few people, you'd be criticized for a great and many things. Look at how many CCW guys who intervene at robberies get thrown under the bus.
I'd hope nothing would happen to somebody who did what they felt was necessary to help.
Let's keep in mind that the NYPD wounded NINE innocent bystanders in their 2 second shoot out near the Empire State Building. Now, imagine a hallway full of kids, and an opponent who does not care if he hits any of them.
Any civilian who runs into a school with a gun to engage an active shooter will have their life, and by extension their family's life, ruined if they injure or God forbid kill a kid in this type of a shoot out. That is a big downside of the Rambo approach and it is getting very little mention in this thread.
Let's keep in mind that the NYPD wounded NINE innocent bystanders in their 2 second shoot out near the Empire State Building. Now, imagine a hallway full of kids, and an opponent who does not care if he hits any of them.
Any civilian who runs into a school with a gun to engage an active shooter will have their life, and by extension their family's life, ruined if they injure or God forbid kill a kid in this type of a shoot out. That is a big downside of the Rambo approach and it is getting very little mention in this thread.
Well first off I would hope you are a much better shot than the NYPD.
And I think most of us who would risk such a thing would be extremely cognizant of Rule 4 (it has been mentioned previously) and probably wouldn't take a shot at an active shooter with kids in the background unless they were 100% positive they could do it or the shooter was in the process of shooting kids at that moment so there was nothing to be lost in the attempt.
Personally if I ever tried to pull off such a thing I wouldn't have to do much shooting. My goal would be to help evacuate as many as possible to safety and my firearm would be to protect me and those in my charge during the attempt.
I could probably accomplish much more that way than playing High Noon with one or more shooters. Of course if I run into a shooter, and am confident I have not mistaken a responder and I have a clear background, I'd probably take that shot.
Sadly taking a gun into a "school zone" has been made enough of a genuine concern that some people will risk a great deal to avoid prosecution. Looks like violation is a felony which could result in loss of rights to own firearms.
I don't know that a jury would convict a man who ran in and stopped dozens of children from meeting their end.
Particularly if the shooter had a lot of ammo on him that he didn't get to fire.
Defense attorney: " the gunman had 175 rounds remaining when the defendant acted. This could've been so much worse."
I don't know that a jury would convict a man who ran in and stopped dozens of children from meeting their end.
Particularly if the shooter had a lot of ammo on him that he didn't get to fire.
Defense attorney: " the gunman had 175 rounds remaining when the defendant acted. This could've been so much worse."
And I would hope it would go just like that. I'm simply acknowledging the validity of the reservations of some.
PdxMotoxer
12-17-12, 02:12
Not reading ALL the replies and only going off the OP's original question.
If i was there on scene when it went down.. without a doubt i'd step in.
But if i were more than say 500yards NO.
Not being LEO with what some would call a "biker look" I'd most
likely be confused as "the shooter" or at the least slow down the first responders who are TRAINED what to do and how to do it.
(Then again i live in a VERY populated city so i can only go off that)
Magic_Salad0892
12-17-12, 02:46
Would any of us intervene if there were two active shooters, like Columbine?
Would any of us intervene if there were two active shooters, like Columbine?
I wouldn't hesitate for a minute. I've never gone into a gradeschool or college or any campus unarmed as an Adult.
Would any of us intervene if there were two active shooters, like Columbine?
Yes, situation dictating of course.
I can't believe anyone in this forum is saying that it would be too dangerous to others if they intervene and someone might get sued or yes even charged. What the fu*k does anyone own a gun for if they wouldn't risk their lives in order to save the innocent and helpless?
And spare me the "I would only make it worse" bs, especially and primarily if there was no one else present to stop the shooter. If you're going to run in while panicking and shoot recklessly then take the friggin gun off and leave it at home every day from now on because you can't handle the responsibility of carrying it.
I can't believe anyone in this forum is saying that it would be too dangerous to others if they intervene and someone might get sued or yes even charged. What the fu*k does anyone own a gun for if they wouldn't risk their lives in order to save the innocent and helpless?
And spare me the "I would only make it worse" bs, especially and primarily if there was no one else present to stop the shooter. If you're going to run in while panicking and shoot recklessly then take the friggin gun off and leave it at home every day from now on because you can't handle the responsibility of carrying it.
Safety, I appreciate your passion and I'm going to try to address your last post with more dignity and respect than what seems to be coming from your end of this conversation.
Some of us have a different perspective when it comes to the risk:benefit analysis that would be done in an instant. It's not that we are uncaring or cowardly. Many of us have run toward the sound of gunfire under different circumstances for which we were actually trained. However, a school shooting is very much different than the war zones that I've faced. There are real downsides to the collateral damages if you have not trained for this type of an assault. Thus, I will attempt to rescue my child if immediately possible, engage the shooter if outside, and provide distractions / information until police arrive. Outside of that, I've been in enough close combat (<100 yards) situations to know that I stand a real chance of becoming part of the problem by engaging the shooter inside of an unfamiliar building full of kids.
Now, I appreciate that you disagree and respect your decision to take different actions. However, we are talking about a hypothetical so let's tone down the emotion just a little.
30 cal slut
12-17-12, 10:51
"If not me, then who?"
First off I'm not looking to offend anyone, just get them to stop thinking foolishly. Once again Sensei, you display an almost emotionless response in the sense that you would do all these calculations and legal assessments before you would take life saving actions.
Most importantly, as I do at least 3-4 days per week I dropped my son off at his elementary school and as always I walked him to the door. Today there was a officer present and the door was locked earlier than usual, so we waited for an aide in the lobby to open the door. Also I noticed an unusually large number of parents dropping off, substantially more than usual.
Anyway as I waved bye and started to walk away from the front door I considered what I would think and do if I were armed (which I never am) and shots began to ring out from inside the school. Yes, I actually thought of deliberately foregoing a firearm for a bludgeoning device as I knew children we're possibly being killed and it was ridiculously unthinkable. And I certainly wouldn't be doing all I could to save lives if I passed on the gun by any means, unless you figure that at that point I'm another target and maybe he'll run out of ammo shooting me.
Anyway it's not going to happen like that for me no matter what living here so have at it.
Would any of us intervene if there were two active shooters, like Columbine?
Going in you wouldn't have a clue. Might be 5 active shooters for all you will know.
First off I'm not looking to offend anyone, just get them to stop thinking foolishly. Once again Sensei, you display an almost emotionless response in the sense that you would do all these calculations and legal assessments before you would take life saving actions.
Most importantly, as I do at least 3-4 days per week I dropped my son off at his elementary school and as always I walked him to the door. Today there was a officer present and the door was locked earlier than usual, so we waited for an aide in the lobby to open the door. Also I noticed an unusually large number of parents dropping off, substantially more than usual.
Anyway as I waved bye and started to walk away from the front door I considered what I would think and do if I were armed (which I never am) and shots began to ring out from inside the school. Yes, I actually thought of deliberately foregoing a firearm for a bludgeoning device as I knew children we're possibly being killed and it was ridiculously unthinkable. And I certainly wouldn't be doing all I could to save lives if I passed on the gun by any means, unless you figure that at that point I'm another target and maybe he'll run out of ammo shooting me.
Anyway it's not going to happen like that for me no matter what living here so have at it.
Sadly that is where our litigious society has gotten us.
We actually reached a point not so long ago that people were fearful of rendering first aid to injured people out of fear of being sued. It actually took the passing of "good samaritan" laws to try and compensate for it. But it still prevents many people from getting involved.
When the situation has gotten so bad that 1 out of 10 "gun people" would find it prudent to attempt rescue with a collapsible baton, that is an indicator of just how bad it has gotten and how much guns have been demonized.
Magic_Salad0892
12-17-12, 17:22
Going in you wouldn't have a clue. Might be 5 active shooters for all you will know.
I actually hadn't thought about that. That's a good point.
I'd go in anyway. But I'm not sure if I'd assume I'd get out alive if there were more than 2.
crusader377
12-17-12, 21:01
To the orginal question, regardless of 1 active shooter or 5, I would attempt to secure and rescue my daughter. If I happen to save others in my attempt to rescue my daughter that would be a big plus. If I can decisively stop the attacker or attackers that would be a bigger plus but my main goal would be to protect my daughter.
Alaskapopo
12-17-12, 21:18
One thing going for us is the active shooter types are generally outcasts who probably don't have more than 1 friend.
Pat
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.