View Full Version : Alert; possible executive order information
Larry Vickers
12-19-12, 00:05
I wanted to share with everyone here what I heard today from a very well placed source inside the firearms industry- word is the Obama administration had the ATF a couple months ago do a study to see the feasibility of making all semi auto assault rifles NFA items- meaning they would be handled in the same way as an SBR in terms of procuring one; it is assumed there would be an amnesty period for current owners to register the assault rifles they already have then any transfer down the line would be the same procedure as a suppressor or SBR
The gut feeling is that if Obama doesn't get from congress an assault rifle ban he likes he will do what Bill Clinton did with the Street Sweeper and use his executive powers to make semi auto AR's, AK's, FAL's, G3's, Galils, etc. NFA weapons
I personally think this is a very likely scenario in case a ban gets deadlocked in the house or senate
Just an FYI - if I hear anything more on this topic or anything else related to a potential future ban I will drop in and give everyone a data dump
Be safe and try and keep your sanity
LAV
:mad:
:blink:
:eek:
That would probably be the line for a few of us on here. I'm thinking it would probably be the line for me.
Secession sounds better and better...I think I could deal with a the Texan summers...
Thanks for the heads up. Guess I'll buy up a few stupidly overpriced lowers...
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-19-12, 00:15
Its certainly the most believable scenario right now.
NoveskeFan
12-19-12, 00:19
It took almost six months for my SBR stamp, can't imagine the wait if something like this came to light. They would surely hire more staff:rolleyes: Also, I think we all know what happens after registration...
Executive orders need to have some foundation in existing law. POTUS cannot use executive orders to create or modify existing laws. For example, the "sporting purpose clause" that gives the AG the ability to regulate the importation of certain weapons can be found in 18 U.S.C. 925 which is a law passes by Congress and signed by POTUS. Where is the language in the NFA that gives the President the authority to extend its provisions to semiauto weapons?
That's called Executive Fiat. He can't bypass congress, the constitution, and the will of the people.
Executive orders need to have some foundation in existing law. POTUS cannot use executive orders to create or modify existing laws. For example, the "sporting purpose clause" that gives the AG the ability to regulate the importation of certain weapons can be found in 18 U.S.C. 925 which is a law passes by Congress and signed by POTUS. Where is the language in the NFA that gives the President the authority to extend its provisions to semiauto weapons?
I'm missing the part where he follows those pesky rules?
Sensei, you really think that will stop this ass clown. Remember this was the guy who said he was a "constitutional scholar" and would have the most transparent administration, who abhorred the evil Bush and his drones, executive orders, and recess appointments.
Sensei, you really think that will stop this ass clown. Remember this was the guy who said he was a "constitutional scholar" and would have the most transparent administration, who abhorred the evil Bush and his drones, executive orders, and recess appointments.
Yes, I do think that it will stop him. That is because there is no provision in the NFA to charge people with a crime for owning an unregistered semiauto rifle. The POTUS cannot rewrite Title 18 without Congress, and charge people with crimes that do not exist. If he tries, I suggest you move to your favorite Pacific Island because it means that we have become a dictatorship.
I respect Mr. Vicker's shooting ability and prowess as a teacher. However, I believe that he was supplied with poor quality information in this instance.
Larry Vickers
12-19-12, 00:52
I've talked to some of my pro gun lawyer friends and they all say the same thing; there is very little if anything Obama can do with executive order in this case but they all fully expect him to push it to the limit if need be and put the burden on the NRA amongst others to spend untold man hours and resources to overturn it - all the while he and the liberal media will be trashing anyone against him as being 'uncaring' and 'not having the children's best interests in mind'
I've talked to some of my pro gun lawyer friends and they all say the same thing; there is very little if anything Obama can do with executive order in this case but they all fully expect him to push it to the limit...
The fact that someone in the Justice Department probably had to explain this to Obama several times is a testament to the level of incompetence in the White House. BTW, welcome to GD. :D
The fact that someone in the Justice Department probably had to explain this to Obama several times is a testament to the level of incompetence in the White House. BTW, welcome to GD. :D
It also further supports my supposition that he was absent the day they taught law in law school
I hope that whenever the NRA comes out, they come out fighting.
This week, I'd imagine they're in their metaphorical ready/loadout room getting their shit together.
Executive orders need to have some foundation in existing law. POTUS cannot use executive orders to create or modify existing laws. For example, the "sporting purpose clause" that gives the AG the ability to regulate the importation of certain weapons can be found in 18 U.S.C. 925 which is a law passes by Congress and signed by POTUS. Where is the language in the NFA that gives the President the authority to extend its provisions to semiauto weapons?
Seems they didn't have a problem with the semi auto Street Sweepers that were made by SWD.
Moose-Knuckle
12-19-12, 01:28
word is the Obama administration had the ATF a couple months ago do a study to see the feasibility of making all semi auto assault rifles NFA items-
All prior to knowing the outcome of the Presidential Election and the recent rash of "mentally ill" mass killings. Hmmm . . . . more convenient coincidences.
GeorgiaBoy
12-19-12, 01:35
All prior to knowing the outcome of the Presidential Election and the recent rash of "mentally ill" mass killings. Hmmm . . . . more convenient coincidences.
I think he was pretty comfortable in feeling that he was going Even if he wasn't sure, there would have been nothing preventing him from telling the ATF to do a study. Who knows if Romney would have even been told an ATF project like this was on-going if he was elected.
I don't know how long a "couple of months ago" is, but its likely not long after the Aurora shooting.. that is probably what sparked it.
SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
12-19-12, 02:11
Thanks for the heads up Mr. Vickers. I don't doubt that he's looking at every a angle he can to destroy the Second Amendment with his formerly "under the radar" and now obvious attempts. He doesn't have the authority to do this and Congress won't have the votes to pass any ban unless shenanigans occur, but this would bode especially ill for those of us in the LE business in crap states like NY exempted from current bans but unable to get ATF forms signed for NFA items. Thankfully for myself, I'll be getting out of dodge very soon.
If that flies, I can see Obama trying to get the Tax Stamp cost raised, hand in hand with the new requirments of registration.
Could you imagine a $1000 fee, and draconian application inspections? It all doesnt seem too farfetched at this point........strange days have found us.
he will try for sure he has nothing to loose and everything to gain
I say look at health care ! nobody wanted it yet somehow it happened
This ought to cause the NRA ILA's bank account to soar off the charts.
How many AR makers are there? Like 20+? There's going to be multi 6 digit donations coming in, if they think their businesses are in jeopardy.
Magic_Salad0892
12-19-12, 03:30
Thanks for the warning, Mr. Vickers.
I'd also like to thank you Mr. Vickers.
Alaskapopo
12-19-12, 03:44
I don't like it but it this happened we could still buy new AR's etc just with a tax stamp or am I mistaken and will it be like the 86 man on full autos.
Pat
What would this mean for those of us who have sold AR 15's privately in states where that is legal ?
Are we to pay tax stamps on every AR 15 we have ever sold ?
What would this mean for those of us that live in states that don't allow NFA items?
Alaskapopo
12-19-12, 05:22
What would this mean for those of us who have sold AR 15's privately in states where that is legal ?
Are we to pay tax stamps on every AR 15 we have ever sold ?
You can't make a law retro active. So what you did before is fine.
pat
NoveskeFan
12-19-12, 05:27
I don't like it but it this happened we could still buy new AR's etc just with a tax stamp or am I mistaken and will it be like the 86 man on full autos.
Pat
Its my understanding that the 4473 is destroyed after so many years(if I'm wrong, sorry). So, if NFA registration happens, then your AR's are on an "official" list. When the Government comes looking to confiscate them, you better have them. Or is that too off base?
This is a scary time indeed.
I am not putting on my foil hat just yet, but I do believe that anything can happen.
Career politicians - who are only looking out for themselves, and to hell with their constituents .
Political corruption is SOP.
And our deep seated tradition of believing anything the media puts forth as fact.
The best we can hope for is a political stalemate.
If we do our very best and still loose, pray that the next choice of evils to enter the White House can fix/repeal any damage done during the next 4 years.
Larry,
FWIW- I heard the exact same thing you did as well from another source within the industry. This was shortly after the incident in Colorado. Some legal minds feel the same as what you stated, that he will push the limits and then allow it go to legal battles.
Business_Casual
12-19-12, 06:05
Thanks LAV! Good gouge.
What would that do to the size and scope of the BATFE? How could they cope with millions of registrations without being the size of the IRS?
Maybe this is a negotiation ploy to get the House to go along with a ban? Threaten them with a doomsday for gun voters? The Chicago way...
Well, whatever it is, Roberts will go along with it. Whatever they dug up on him to strong-arm him into agreeing with the "Obamacare tax decision" will be back.
bc
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-19-12, 06:17
All the folks that didn't vote for Romney because he wasn't perfect enough can thank themselves when they are turnig over their guns or tax forms.
ICANHITHIMMAN
12-19-12, 06:23
Larry
Are you going to use any of this on the show? Your in a position to reach a lot of uninformed people. Thank you for the info passing it on. Additionally thanks to the rest of you for legal definitions.
I have a feeling he'll go after it as fast as he can. Cost, the number of examiners & transfer times will no doubt be brought up, giving him the chance he needs to get the things he wants out of the budget cuts to fund hiring new folks at NFA Branch. Our side will cave, he'll get what he wants on both fronts. If this goes down, I doubt the tax will increase just yet in order to sell it, but you bet your ass in a year or 2 it will "adjust with inflation".
Guys,
Do all you can, as the wolf is at the door.
Larry,
FWIW- I heard the exact same thing you did as well from another source within the industry. This was shortly after the incident in Colorado. Some legal minds feel the same as what you stated, that he will push the limits and then allow it go to legal battles.
You mean after he appoints another UberLib to the SCOTUS?
BTW he's just been named Person of the Year by TIME for transforming America.
What would this mean for those of us that live in states that don't allow NFA items?
With all due respect, take a wild guess.
I've talked to some of my pro gun lawyer friends and they all say the same thing; there is very little if anything Obama can do with executive order in this case but they all fully expect him to push it to the limit if need be and put the burden on the NRA amongst others to spend untold man hours and resources to overturn it - all the while he and the liberal media will be trashing anyone against him as being 'uncaring' and 'not having the children's best interests in mind'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhsTmiK7Q2M
HackerF15E
12-19-12, 07:08
Some legal minds feel the same as what you stated, that he will push the limits and then allow it go to legal battles.
Worked out for the Administration in the health care battle, so I'm sure they are emboldened by that plus their feeling of invincibility post-election.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-19-12, 07:28
I think you guys are missing the real point of an NFA grab. It is most definately illegal and would get turned down- but you make someone goto court and fight to put these 'kid killing battlefield rifles' back on our streets. The NRA will do it, of course, but the left will use that to demonize them even further and split them from the FUDDs.
It's not about actually getting them on the NFA list, it is all about making your opponent look more fringe.
Why are they even pushing an AWB now? Because they know it will make Republicans in swing districts in the house make a vote that will cost them soccer moms. Dems don't care about guns, its all about the ads they can run in two years about how your congressman gave guns to crazys and killed your kid.
The NFA makes some sense as a progession from where we are, but legally it is pretty tough. I'd look more for something in the safety realm, although there are restrictions there on what they can do with guns, I could see some kind of end run like 'workplace lead (Pb)' restriction. Lead in bullets fired in buildings causes elevated lead levels.
Christmas then New Years, the fiscal cliff and who knows what between now and the new year. The Republicans need to get to the bottom of the Bhenghazi stuff.
Reps need an 'active' solution ie security and armed teachers to the passive dems plan of 'passive' laws that don't actually stop killers.
Seems they didn't have a problem with the semi auto Street Sweepers that were made by SWD.
Which was done by designating it as a destructive device. Although we may disagree with that designation, apparently we were in the minority since there was relatively little resistance. I suspect that he would meet much more resistance if he tried to designate semiauto rifles as destructive devices.
All the folks that didn't vote for Romney because he wasn't perfect enough can thank themselves when they are turnig over their guns or tax forms.
Absolutely agree!!!
Unimaginable :mad:
MountainRaven
12-19-12, 08:21
All the folks that didn't vote for Romney because he wasn't perfect enough can thank themselves when they are turnig over their guns or tax forms.
Given that some House Republicans who ran on 'protecting the Second Amendment' are saying things like 'I don't remember the last time I went deer hunting and had more than three rounds in my clip (sic)', I don't believe for an instant that the man who signed an AWB would not try to work with the man who wants to sign an AWB to try to control 'assault weapons'.
In any case, do we have anything other than the PotUS studying adding 'assault weapons' to the NFA? Not saying he wouldn't want to try it. I mean it's like having a plan to attack Syria - doesn't mean it's going to happen, just means that we're thinking about it. So I wouldn't panic... yet.
Worked out for the Administration in the health care battle, so I'm sure they are emboldened by that plus their feeling of invincibility post-election.
ACA was not just the Administration - that was the Administration and both houses of Congress. Very different from an Executive Order. My guess is that even if Obama issued such an Order, a stay would come very swiftly as the Federal Judiciary reviewed legality.
What is the difference with EO after Fast & Furious when the multiple long gun form was pulled from the air??
I sorta get what you are saying when he can't make certain weapons into NFA items overnight, but how did he pull off the multiple long gun form for border states??
Was there nothing (previous law) in place to make it stick and how is it different from the NFA EO?? This admin sems to have the ability to pull the strings anywhere they please.
I hope you guys are right on this one.
chapperjoe
12-19-12, 08:49
I don't think he can executive order an AWB or even what MR. Vickers heard.
Obama and his ilk have two pet issues that they think they have a chance on: mags, and "gun show loopholes" (great phrase, best misnomer EVER).
Honestly, I think we will see him banning large capacity mags via executive order.
I don't see how he can't do this, or how we can stop it.
Re, private sales:
Making all transfers through a FFL is something only congress can do.
Given the particulars of this tragedy (e.g. no gun law would have stopped it) I think they have an uphill battle in the public.
The root cause here is untouchable and a liberal sweetheart - ALL blame goes to the rabid liberals who stripped mental health authority from the government in the 70's and made it a "poo poo it'll be ok" issue , not a "we need to institutionalize this person before he kills 30 people" issue.
well i have a 14.5 pinned extended Barrel if he pulls this I guess Now would be the time to SBR my rifle .please let us know what you hear Mr Vickers .
Also has the industry had a sit down with other companies ?I believe if Colt ,BCM ,ETC came together on this it could shake things up a bit
Mauser KAR98K
12-19-12, 09:09
Also has the industry had a sit down with other companies ?I believe if Colt ,BCM ,ETC came together on this it could shake things up a bit
+1.
In the 1930s when the electric guitar pick-up was invented and sold by the Rickenbacker Company, many other guitar companies started to make their own, patent be damned. Rickenbacker decided not to do a thing about it, because of legal fees and such, but also the competition was giving him more business. There was a company that had made the plans and blueprints "so they say" that they created the electric pick-up, just never produced it, so they started strong arming guitar companies--Kay, Gretsch, Epiphone--into lawsuits for royalties. Thing was, a big portion of these guitar companies--competitors of each other--teamed up and fought agianst these lawsuits, and for the most part, won.
If our gun manufactures truly care about their customers, they need to ban together, not just collectively send money to the NRA-ILA, but speak, tell the public what will happen if any of this goes into effect. I'm sure Magpul will be greatly affected. And so will the countless law enforcement and military personnel who use these products.
Mr Vickers Could You try and contact the Big Companies and professional Shooters ? and start a Line of communication .
If our gun manufactures truly care about their customers, they need to ban together, not just collectively send money to the NRA-ILA, but speak, tell the public what will happen if any of this goes into effect. I'm sure Magpul will be greatly affected. And so will the countless law enforcement and military personnel who use these products.
If they know what's good for long term business, they won't sit idly by. They know where most of their revenue comes from.
Honestly, I think we will see him banning large capacity mags via executive order.
I don't see how he can't do this, or how we can stop it.
I don't see how he can ban high capacity magazines. An executive order must stem from authority granted in existing legislation or the Constitution. I know of no law that grants him the authority to ban magazines any more than the bagel that I'm currently eating. In other words, what portion of Title 18 would be used to charge you if you disobeyed such a ban?
Guys, we need to spend our energy directed at more productive endeavors. There are no less than 3 threads in GD dedicated to anticipating what might happen. This is part of the left's tactics to get us running around guessing what might happen. In the meantime, we start to look like callous pricks to the non-shooting community that normally is sympathetic to our cause. Ignore this shit and focus on these simple principles to prevent future tragedies:
1) Stable families with traditional values and standards of behavior that are free of substances.
2) Get kids off the computer, away from the TV, and doing activities that require meaningful social relationships that don't involve senseless violence.
3) Secure our schools in a real way which involves trained armed security or police.
4) Promote responsible gun ownership. Spread the word to all of your friends about classes taught by guys like Larry. Let them know that the cost of a gun must include responsible training and a means of securing it.
We will recruit far more support from the non-shooting community if we use the left's tactic of simple talking points, rather than playing regulatory whack-a-mole.
Now, it's time for me to put down this damn iPhone and spend some time with my kid so that he does not become the next Michael Meyers. ;)
Doc Safari
12-19-12, 09:38
I'm not an industry insider, but I have been afraid for months that adding semi-autos to the NFA registry might be something Barry would have the guts to try.
I've also heard from a couple of sources (both FFL's) that the current requirement of reporting multiple long gun sales in the border states is a "done deal" to make it apply to all 50 states.
Larry, keep us updated!
These are scary times indeed.
KalashniKEV
12-19-12, 09:39
I would think such action would trigger a secession event.
Virginia was ready to bail out over healthcare not too long ago. Everyone knew they were just bluffing, but this, compounded, makes the situation much more serious.
Well find out at 11:45 EST. Supposedly O'dumbo is making a speech about gun control.
If they do to this route I guess I'll have no more excuses for not setting up my trust and going full Monty for an SBR and suppressor.
As far as the industry pulling together and standing up for the 2nd amendment. I wouldn't hold my breath. They didn't do it in 94, they didn't do it in 86, or 68 or 34 and they wont do it today. They are not in the business of protecting the constitution, but rather the share holder. Allot means is that they will all do their best to suck the to government c*** in the hopes of getting some contracts, be those mil or LEO as, sure, there will be an exemption for government weapons. Some of the smaller companies like Magpul or LaRue that aren't intimately tied to government purchases may choose to make a statement like Barrett did to CA, but the likes of Colt, Ruger, S&W, Glock won't do shit. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.
What would be great is if the NRA would compile a list of the number of jobs that will possibly be lost, familys devastated, and companies/tax payers shutdown from any such legislation. Regardless of what is said, moving these rifles to NFA will seriously take a chunk out of the gun community. Like we as a country can afford any further loss of industry.
Executive orders need to have some foundation in existing law. POTUS cannot use executive orders to create or modify existing laws. For example, the "sporting purpose clause" that gives the AG the ability to regulate the importation of certain weapons can be found in 18 U.S.C. 925 which is a law passes by Congress and signed by POTUS. Where is the language in the NFA that gives the President the authority to extend its provisions to semiauto weapons?
While this is true, I can imagine a scenario where we have an EO issued and it ends up tied up in a legal cluster **** for years before the possibility of being overturned. They will win the war on guns through attrition and voters will lose interest, while the 2A is gutted.
Heavy Metal
12-19-12, 10:55
Seems they didn't have a problem with the semi auto Street Sweepers that were made by SWD.
That because the 68 GCA allows weapons with a bore diameter of over .50cal to be declared a destructive device. A 12 guage shotgun has a larger than half-inch bore diameter.
Speech coming on CNN shortly 11:45am est... On Fox right now.
ICANHITHIMMAN
12-19-12, 11:17
Speech coming on CNN shortly 11:45am est... On Fox right now.
Its announced
Obama can ban (make NFA) every single gun with a bore over .500 RIGHT NOW if he wants. He has not done it.
Its announced
What was announced...at work and can't watch TV
KalashniKEV
12-19-12, 11:34
"all the powers of this office" means Executive Order.
It's coming in February after Biden delivers his recommendation.
What was announced...at work and can't watch TV
Commission led by Biden to make recommendations.
Voodoochild
12-19-12, 11:42
"all the powers of this office" means Executive Order.
It's coming in February after Biden delivers his recommendation.
Executive orders will not work for this situation. It has to go through congress he cannot bypass congress. And it will be one hell of a fight. He kicked the hornets nest.
Expect every gun maker/organization to get ready to lawyer up and head to the courts if Obama tries to pull any fast ones.
Obomo said he's willing to bet.. the majority is with him on this, including responsible gun owners. IIRC
Spurholder
12-19-12, 11:47
Obomo said he's willing to bet.. the majority is with him on this, including responsible gun owners. IIRC
Yep - just heard him say this a minute ago. That, and that he wants to preserve the 2nd Amendment. :rolleyes:
brickboy240
12-19-12, 11:49
They took away the jobs, the cheap prices on food and fuel, the housing market, the investment market...guns will be next.
They cannot leave us all this depressed....and armed.
LOL
Obomo said he's willing to bet.. the majority is with him on this, including responsible gun owners. IIRC
Yep, he claimed the majority of Americans want to ban assault weapons.
Again... the comfortable liar.
What would this mean for those of us that live in states that don't allow NFA items?
No states that I am aware of have a law banning "NFA items." They ban the definition of SBRs, machine guns, and suppressors. That's why I can bring my registered SBR lower to, say, Hawaii, as long as it either has no upper on it or a 16"+ upper. Or I can throw a dedicated .22 upper with a 16" barrel and bring it to California (it has a collapsible stock).
So if standard non NFA guns become NFA guns, nothing changes from the state perspective unless state laws also change.
Obama can ban (make NFA) every single gun with a bore over .500 RIGHT NOW if he wants. He has not done it.
Um, every gun with a bore over .500 already is an nfa weapon, besides shot guns.
You can't make a law retro active. So what you did before is fine.
pat
They can do anything LEGALLY BUT NOT LAWFULLY.
It's entirely up to us to keep them on the str8 and narrow.
They took away the jobs, the cheap prices on food and fuel, the housing market, the investment market...guns will be next.
They cannot leave us all this depressed....and armed.
LOL
One way or another.
What we should be thinking is what's next?
1.4 billion rounds of ammo for DHS, camps all over the place... Agenda 21 being pushed all over the country.
wetidlerjr
12-19-12, 12:19
"all the powers of this office" means Executive Order.
It's coming in February after Biden delivers his recommendation.
And you can confirm this definition or is this just YOUR opinion?
Littlelebowski
12-19-12, 12:21
All he has to do is end the war on drugs to lower our "murder" rate. That's ****ing it. Some liberal. Just another big gov't control freak.
KalashniKEV
12-19-12, 12:29
And you can confirm this definition or is this just YOUR opinion?
It's an educated opinion.
From the title of this thread and it's OP, it appears that LAV shares that opinion.
Commission led by Biden to make recommendations.
Thanks...so nothing really specific.
Not sure how a moron like Biden will come up with ANYTHING of substance though...not that I expect a lib to have anything of substance when it comes to guns...
http://washingtonexaminer.com/biden-2008-if-obama-tries-to-fool-with-my-beretta-hes-got-a-problem/article/2516400#.UNH7LUXm48m
guess he owns a single stack
:rolleyes:
People need to wake up. This IS coming. He's just determining which front is most ripe for attack right now. Suppose he issues an executive order. Will it be challenged? I'm sure it will. How long and how expensive will it be to fight it? And all the while it's being fought it will remain in effect. And all the while they will be continually demonizing the people fighting it. By which time I'm sure he'll have one or two more SCOTUS justices of his liking in place. We'll go to court pleading with his own yes-men begging them to overturn their boss's EO. How do you really think that will work out?
In the end it doesn't matter if it's legal or not. It doesn't matter if he has the authority or not. Legality and authority are just minor obstacles he will carefully navigate around.
If it turns out I'm wrong, I will gladly suck it up, admit I was wrong, and eat crow, and I'm sure it'll be the best tasting crow ever. In the meantime I'll continue wearing my tin foil hat.
wetidlerjr
12-19-12, 12:49
It's an educated opinion.
From the title of this thread and it's OP, it appears that LAV shares that opinion.
I understand. I watched the press conference and it didn't quite come over to me that way but you could well be right. However, I don't think he will use that avenue unless Congress balks and it looks like nothing will be passed. Also, his use of a "new task force led by Vice President Joe Biden" seems to cover more than guns. I think TV, movies, the internet and electronic games could well take a big hit in all this. After all, without that we can't have "1984" type thought control. Now don't get me wrong as I have NEVER been big on conspiracies but some of this crap is starting to give me a "Chicken Little" syndrome.
People need to wake up. This IS coming. He's just determining which front is most ripe for attack right now. Suppose he issues an executive order. Will it be challenged? I'm sure it will. How long and how expensive will it be to fight it? And all the while it's being fought it will remain in effect. And all the while they will be continually demonizing the people fighting it. By which time I'm sure he'll have one or two more SCOTUS justices of his liking in place. We'll go to court pleading with his own yes-men begging them to overturn their boss's EO. How do you really think that will work out?
In the end it doesn't matter if it's legal or not. It doesn't matter if he has the authority or not. Legality and authority are just minor obstacles he will carefully navigate around.
If it turns out I'm wrong, I will gladly suck it up, admit I was wrong, and eat crow, and I'm sure it'll be the best tasting crow ever. In the meantime I'll continue wearing my tin foil hat.
And it definitely is a tin foil hat.
A higher tax on ammo or guns is likely imo, but a ban via executive order is about as probable as the world ending Friday.
All the folks that didn't vote for Romney because he wasn't perfect enough can thank themselves when they are turnig over their guns or tax forms.
And so can those who nominated a "no win" candidate.
If every person in America had simply voted Libertarian we wouldn't be in this mess.
Isn't placing blame fun?
And it definitely is a tin foil hat.
A higher tax on ammo or guns is likely imo, but a ban via executive order is about as probable as the world ending Friday.
And do you think that will be the end of it?
The scenario I laid out above is only one of several possibilities.
Um, every gun with a bore over .500 already is an nfa weapon, besides shot guns.
You catch on quick.
He can make every shotgun a DD. He can ban from import every firearm. In fact, he does not have to do it. The SECTREAS can do it with the stroke of a pen.
As far as I'm aware, an Executive Order doesn't require Congressional approval. If he was going that route, wouldn't he have announced it today at the press conference?
Doc Safari
12-19-12, 13:16
I realize this is a tiny bit of optimism, but given Barry's lack of enthusiasm over the gun issue in his first term, he could be just setting things up so the Republicans can be further demonized when they fail to pass a ban.
DG someone called him out on that.... "Where have you been?"
Obama: I've had two wars, auto industry failing, etc, etc, --I haven't been on vacation--
As far as I'm aware, an Executive Order doesn't require Congressional approval. If he was going that route, wouldn't he have announced it today at the press conference?
I was under the same impression. Isn't the bypassing of Congress the whole point of an executive order?
As far as I'm aware, an Executive Order doesn't require Congressional approval. If he was going that route, wouldn't he have announced it today at the press conference?
With an EO, he already has Congressional Approval. Congress often gives the Executive Branch wide latitude in enforcing laws.
For a non-gun example, where we can drill or not drill for oil on Fed Land.
Thanks...so nothing really specific.
Not sure how a moron like Biden will come up with ANYTHING of substance though...not that I expect a lib to have anything of substance when it comes to guns...
Smoke and mirrors. Biden's little commission is nothing more than a smoke screen like all those town hall meetings. It is meant to give the impression that he is truly considering the input of the unwashed masses. No matter what happens during those commission meetings the out one is already set. Just like ObamaCare. Even though the majority of town hall meetings looked like they were in opposition to the bill they still passed it claiming they had the will of the majority behind them. The CLC (comfortable liar in chief) to this day claims that the majority of Americans wanted ObamaCare.
This will come to pass in the same way and gun owners are going to be taking it like Barney Frank.
montanadave
12-19-12, 13:42
We are not going to hear anything until "fiscal cliff" negotiations end, one way or the other. These guys are in the middle of a high-stakes political poker game as we speak and, though they would be loath to admit it, the gun violence issue is small ball. Neither side is going to stake out a defined position for fear it will weaken their current hand.
After new year's, I suspect we will see a series of proposals carefully "leaked" to gauge public reaction and hear the finalized version in the SOTU address.
Rattlehead
12-19-12, 13:49
....he could be just setting things up so the Republicans can be further demonized when they fail to pass a ban.
While that would be more desirable than a ban, I doubt that that will happen this time, unfortunately.
I'm not really one to overly panic, but I am a bit rattled over this one. This is a catalyst that many that are against gun ownership can use to gain traction in ways that they previously could not. Also, as I look around on the web, I am seeing these petitions to sign and mail in that are stuck in website news articles... Petitions that are asking the .gov to ban "assault" weapons. (They already have been banned!). Example, look at this article from NY Daily News.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/exclusive-mind-newtown-killer-article-1.1223612
If enough folks out there blast these in, then we need to do similar and counter with stronger numbers. Otherwise, Obama and the administration will say that the American people want this and that he is forcing the hand of the moral majority of America that believes that these guns being banned will end violence.
On that same page they mention that the gun related homicides in 6 months equals that of both wars... but how many are from "assault weapons"?
Doc. Holiday
12-19-12, 14:24
Cool, thanks for the info Larry!
Heavy Metal
12-19-12, 14:50
I'm not really one to overly panic, but I am a bit rattled over this one. This is a catalyst that many that are against gun ownership can use to gain traction in ways that they previously could not. Also, as I look around on the web, I am seeing these petitions to sign and mail in that are stuck in website news articles... Petitions that are asking the .gov to ban "assault" weapons. (They already have been banned!). Example, look at this article from NY Daily News.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/exclusive-mind-newtown-killer-article-1.1223612
If enough folks out there blast these in, then we need to do similar and counter with stronger numbers. Otherwise, Obama and the administration will say that the American people want this and that he is forcing the hand of the moral majority of America that believes that these guns being banned will end violence.
On that same page they mention that the gun related homicides in 6 months equals that of both wars... but how many are from "assault weapons"?
Don't worry about those stupid petitions. The only count that maters is the for and against count the staffers in your Elected Representatives keep on controversal issues. This is how they guage public opinion where it counts.
The most effective place to apply your efforts is calling and writing hard-copy letters to your reps. Hard copy counts for more than an email. Of course, you can email too.
Seems they didn't have a problem with the semi auto Street Sweepers that were made by SWD.
The legal definition of Destructive device in 26 USC 5845 classifies all firearms with a bore over one-half inch as destructive devices UNLESS they are specifically exempted as being suitable for sporting purposes.
(2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;
Street Sweeper/Striker12-type shotguns just had their exemption rescinded.
There is no similar legal language that applies to semi-auto rifles.
Classifying them as NFA firearms would require legislation and could not be done by executive order alone, in my opinion.
Of course, someone would have to stop him.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-19-12, 15:18
How long do they have to do a NICs check? IIRC they have to give a yea or nea within a certian amount of time? What if BHO told the FBI to deny all semi purchases, or more likely to take longer to run checks- or or checks done at the state level not the federal?
Just trying to think of all the levels of the transaction to figure out how they could gum it up.
So is Biden going to show up at some three-gun shoots to see how ARs are used as modern sporting rifles?
Heavy Metal
12-19-12, 15:21
How long do they have to do a NICs check? IIRC they have to give a yea or nea within a certian amount of time? What if BHO told the FBI to deny all semi purchases, or more likely to take longer to run checks- or or checks done at the state level not the federal?
All they know when they run a NICS chek is if you are buying a Handgun or a Long Gun. That's all the Dealer tells the Operator on the phone.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-19-12, 15:39
All they know when they run a NICS chek is if you are buying a Handgun or a Long Gun. That's all the Dealer tells the Operator on the phone.
How did the border state multi purchase of semis happen?
Doc Safari
12-19-12, 15:42
How did the border state multi purchase of semis happen?
From what I understand ATF just decided to do it.
Heavy Metal
12-19-12, 15:45
How did the border state multi purchase of semis happen?
That is a seperate form that is mailed in after the weapon has been sold. It is simply a reporting form, not an approval form.
Be safe and try and keep your sanity
LAV
Not really worried about staying sane of course, but as we know this has become very troublesome on numerous fronts. Someone somewhere better come up with a difinitive plan or we are about to get steamrolled despite our diligence.
Personally I believe the best thing the NRA could do would be to announce that it's using future portions of it's funding for programs outside of the realm of firearms to show overtly that they want to help our struggling society. If they already implement them then they need to both expand and get the word out.
Will it fix everything? No. But it might just help focus attention where it's needed while demonstrating their/our desire to both help identify and address the real problems. Do something dramatic to turn the tables now when it seems most unlikely. Talk about the real causes of inner-city violence and clarify why it's a far worse threat to this nation than a single mentally disturbed young man. Something, anything for Christ's sake.
Thanks for the intel, Larry!
Unfortunately, this is exactly what I've been thinking he'd do - use an EO to move stuff to the NFA list. For those who give all the reasons why "he can't do that", just think of what a blatant violation of the Constitution his "health care" monstrosity is... and the Supreme Court upheld that! Hell, most of what the govt does is unconstitutional, if you honestly consider the intent of the Constitution.
I think the bottom line is that everybody needs to accept that this govt is going to ram some violation of our Rights down our throats at the point of a gun (ironically). The question is: If it affects us as individuals rather than manufacturers, how many people will comply? Where is your line in the sand?
:confused:
I don't want an answer, but everybody needs to give himself an honest answer to that question.
Magic_Salad0892
12-19-12, 17:43
I will say one thing.
If we get past this presidency without any infringements on our second amendment (and I have faith that we can).
I will be extremely proud that we pulled through, and that we stood up for our rights.
It's an uphill battle for them, and for us. I think we can win. With faith, I think we will.
We can get past this.
I will say one thing.
If we get past this presidency without any infringements on our second amendment (and I have faith that we can).
I will be extremely proud that we pulled through, and that we stood up for our rights.
It's an uphill battle for them, and for us. I think we can win. With faith, I think we will.
We can get past this.
Everybody pray to whatever dear and fluffy lord you have that he's right.
I will say one thing.
If we get past this presidency without any infringements on our second amendment (and I have faith that we can).
I will be extremely proud that we pulled through, and that we stood up for our rights.
It's an uphill battle for them, and for us. I think we can win. With faith, I think we will.
We can get past this.
We the People probably could in theory. Our elected representatives have no deep desire to fight that fight though.
In the same way we have allowed our society to decay into drugs and violence, etc.. we have allowed our leaders to place themselves on pedestals.
If we pull this one off it will be just short of a miracle.
I will say that Gov. McDonald of VA has done an amazing job so far to stand up to the liberal gun grab.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/va-politics/mcdonnell-gun-control-talk-way-too-early/2012/12/17/0358f66a-4880-11e2-820e-17eefac2f939_story.html
Magic_Salad0892
12-19-12, 18:07
I will say that Gov. McDonald of VA has done an amazing job so far to stand up to the liberal gun grab.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/va-politics/mcdonnell-gun-control-talk-way-too-early/2012/12/17/0358f66a-4880-11e2-820e-17eefac2f939_story.html
Isn't that proof that we have people on our side?
Federal grants to states often have strings attached. The future could see so-called firearm safety strings attached to federal funding.
Some gun companies may cut and run in order to gain favoritism giving them exemptions to new rules or to be seen in a favoritable light by investors. Manufacturers that enjoy law enforcement contracts may be coerced to modify their products offered to civilians. Think Colt, Glock, Smith, and FN.
Magazine capacity limit possibly could be a number less than 10. Rifles magazines might be limited to 5 rds and handguns to 8.
The gun bill will have unprecedented momentum aided by politicians who fear being labeled as unreasonable, insensitive, and out of touch.
The best thing we can do is donate money to the NRA.
Isn't that proof that we have people on our side?
Yes, but now look at it in context.
VA - before this we had Warner who was A rated and he has said screw it, he's done being gun friendly. Cantor(R) refuses to even answer a questionnaire from VCDL about his position on guns and that too was before this situation. Webb who just quit and was replaced by I believe F rated Tim Kaine.
So all within a matter of 30 days we went from leaning heavily pro gun to leaning very heavily anti gun.
I'm sure similar situations exist with other States. This is going to be like election number 2 for Obama so to speak. If he looses we don't win anything. If he wins, we loose big time. So this is a massive shift in our "representative potential". That's what really worries me.
If it comes down to it, moving them to the NFA is better than having a new AWB.
It gives us a legal avenue to keep what we already have and buy new stuff.
I'm not going to pay $500 to $1000 for a high cap magazine in 15 years after a permanent AWB.
Mauser KAR98K
12-19-12, 23:00
If it comes down to it, moving them to the NFA is better than having a new AWB.
It gives us a legal avenue to keep what we already have and buy new stuff.
I'm not going to pay $500 to $1000 for a high cap magazine in 15 years after a permanent AWB.
And if another mass shooting happens with weapon that wasn't registered as an NFA, or was an NFA, what is to stop the government to say F' it, we are coming to take them?
If it comes down to it, moving them to the NFA is better than having a new AWB.
ABSOLUTELY NOT
Alaskapopo
12-19-12, 23:18
ABSOLUTELY NOT
Why do you feel that way?
Pat
If it comes down to it, moving them to the NFA is better than having a new AWB.
It gives us a legal avenue to keep what we already have and buy new stuff.
I'm not going to pay $500 to $1000 for a high cap magazine in 15 years after a permanent AWB.
Instead you will pay $1000 in NFA taxes for every 5 magazine fed semi autos you own.
And who says they won't reclass semi auto rifles AND pass a magazine ban?
Additionally, at the HEIGHT of the Clinton Ban, AR-15 magazines weren't going for $100 let alone $500 or $1000.
Glock magazines hit $100 and HK USP mags pinged $125 but that is because there were far fewer of those compared to AR-15 magazines.
And finally, what have you been doing since 2004 that you still need more rifle magazines?
With PMags pinging at $40-60 right now, I'm selling off several and I'm still going to have about 600 AR magazines.
Why do you feel that way?
Pat
All NFA weapons/ that require a tax- stamp are banned in several states. That's a defacto confiscation.
I'm sick of losing rights. Sick to death of it. NO MORE.
Choose a side
Instead you will pay $1000 in NFA taxes for every 5 magazine fed semi autos you own.
And who says they won't reclass semi auto rifles AND pass a magazine ban?
Additionally, at the HEIGHT of the Clinton Ban, AR-15 magazines weren't going for $100 let alone $500 or $1000.
Glock magazines hit $100 and HK USP mags pinged $125 but that is because there were far fewer of those compared to AR-15 magazines.
And finally, what have you been doing since 2004 that you still need more rifle magazines?
With PMags pinging at $40-60 right now, I'm selling off several and I'm still going to have about 600 AR magazines.
You don't think I already know that?
What happens when the ban is permanent and AWs and magazines become like transferable MGs and skyrocket in value?
What do you think mag prices will be like in 30 or 40 years after a permanent AWB?
Original Thompson SMG drums. How much do they cost? It isn't $100. Any rare magazine is going to cost a shit ton of money.
You are an experienced gunman that owns transferable MGs. Why can't you this coming?
A permanent AWB will push preban AR-15s to $25K and in response transferable M16s to $75K via market forces.
That is alot more money than having to pay a $200 tax on a $1500 to $2000 rifle.
Some of us are still relatively new to the game and only have 20 or so mags.
We need to stop pondering what could happen and do our best to see that nothing happens.
I don't even want to see any "Mental Health" hurdles to cross. We have enough hoops and ladders to overcome as it is to merely purchase one, let alone giving them choosing any mental condition they see fit as a disqualifier.
There is no gun problem. There is no Assault weapon problem. There is however a serious media problem with sensationalizing on tragedies like this and stirring up the masses in outrage over isolated incidents.
Where is the outrage for the 400 people that died today from vehicle accidents caused by drivers that should not have been driving, medical boo boos, starvation, hypothermia, contra indicated medical prescription interactions, diseases where the treatment is turning a 1000% retail profit and unfordable for the lower income, and oh yeah, the Flu (kills more people than guns every year)? Where will be the outrage for the 400 tomorrow, and the next day?
400 people dying a day from things that could have been prevented all over the nation is OK, but 26 by one individual and we blame the tool, not the individual committing the act? If that fails we blame the person that allowed the individual access to the tool. If that fails we blame the system for allowing the tool to even be available.
All NFA weapons/ that require a tax- stamp are banned in several states. That's a defacto confiscation.
I'm sick of losing rights. Sick to death of it. NO MORE.
Choose a side
They are banned by individual NFA category such as MG, DD, SBR, SBS, AOW, SIL
Very few states have it in generic writing that "all NFA is banned"
Each state legislature would have to add box fed semis to their ban list.
Alaskapopo
12-19-12, 23:53
All NFA weapons/ that require a tax- stamp are banned in several states. That's a defacto confiscation.
I'm sick of losing rights. Sick to death of it. NO MORE.
Choose a side
I don't want either one just wanted to know your reasoning. By chose a side I think I have made it clear I support the 2nd amendment.
Pat
And finally, what have you been doing since 2004 that you still need more rifle magazines?
I already have my mags. What about Americans that aren't old enough to own firearms yet?
You think they are going to just magically buy expensive preban AWs and mags?
Having a permanent AWB is going to create another class of firearms that only the elite can afford.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-20-12, 00:03
Instead you will pay $1000 in NFA taxes for every 5 magazine fed semi autos you own.
And who says they won't reclass semi auto rifles AND pass a magazine ban?
Additionally, at the HEIGHT of the Clinton Ban, AR-15 magazines weren't going for $100 let alone $500 or $1000.
Glock magazines hit $100 and HK USP mags pinged $125 but that is because there were far fewer of those compared to AR-15 magazines.
And finally, what have you been doing since 2004 that you still need more rifle magazines?
With PMags pinging at $40-60 right now, I'm selling off several and I'm still going to have about 600 AR magazines.
I was 15 in 2004, living in a house with one .22 rifle and a .38 pistol that hadn't been fired for 10 years. At the moment I became an adult, I wound up stationed in California for the next 4 years of my life, unable to hoard magazines. Come 2012, and I don't have the money to go buy everything I need all at once. Some of us are lacking, but not for a lack of trying.
Ive got maybe 8 glock mags and 20-25 AR mags. I intend to double that, but we'll see how that goes. I was planning to buy my second upper this month, but there are none to be found...
Mauser KAR98K
12-20-12, 00:04
I already have my mags. What about Americans that aren't old enough to own firearms yet?
You think they are going to just magically buy expensive preban AWs and mags?
Having a permanent AWB is going to create another class of firearms that only the elite can afford.
They are going to be too busy paying for all this F***ing spending to even dream of getting an expensive tax stamp, mags, and hell, even an AR.
STOP COMPROMISING!!
Magic_Salad0892
12-20-12, 00:05
Here's a civics lesson.
They're called rights. You shouldn't HAVE to vote for them. That's why they're called "rights."
And just one day in my life, I'd like to wake up, and not have to worry about them being taken away.
Just one day.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-20-12, 00:07
If it comes down to it, moving them to the NFA is better than having a new AWB.
It gives us a legal avenue to keep what we already have and buy new stuff.
I'm not going to pay $500 to $1000 for a high cap magazine in 15 years after a permanent AWB.
Its nice that you want to collaborate to save your own skin, but its all or nothing for me.
I'd rather have the government tell me I cant speak at all than tell them what parts of my freedom of speech I am willing to give up. Same with the 2A. I'll stand my ground and draw the line in the sand. Hopefully, many people not willing to collaborate will stand with me.
Make a stand and have some resolve.
Magic_Salad0892
12-20-12, 00:15
Its nice that you want to collaborate to save your own skin, but its all or nothing for me.
I'd rather have the government tell me I cant speak at all than tell them what parts of my freedom of speech I am willing to give up. Same with the 2A. I'll stand my ground and draw the line in the sand. Hopefully, many people not willing to collaborate will stand with me.
I will.
Mauser KAR98K
12-20-12, 00:20
Its nice that you want to collaborate to save your own skin, but its all or nothing for me.
I'd rather have the government tell me I cant speak at all than tell them what parts of my freedom of speech I am willing to give up. Same with the 2A. I'll stand my ground and draw the line in the sand. Hopefully, many people not willing to collaborate will stand with me.
Count me in.
Here here. Not on my watch
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-20-12, 00:24
Make a stand and have some resolve.
I will.
Count me in.
Here here. Not on my watch
****ing motivating. This is where it starts.
You don't think I already know that?
What happens when the ban is permanent and AWs and magazines become like transferable MGs and skyrocket in value?
What do you think mag prices will be like in 30 or 40 years after a permanent AWB?
Original Thompson SMG drums. How much do they cost? It isn't $100. Any rare magazine is going to cost a shit ton of money.
You are an experienced gunman that owns transferable MGs. Why can't you this coming?
A permanent AWB will push preban AR-15s to $25K and in response transferable M16s to $75K via market forces.
That is alot more money than having to pay a $200 tax on a $1500 to $2000 rifle.
I guess I learned the lessons of the 86 ban. Once they are re classed, what keeps them from closing that registry?
I think our only choice is to GIVE THEM NOTHING. I understand you feel differently.
****ing motivating. This is where it starts.
As they say on the internet..."in."
Magic_Salad0892
12-20-12, 00:44
My brother is writing every congressman, senetor, and governor in the United States right now. He's been working on it since the day before yesterday.
Looks like he's in too.
Add one more!
Its nice that you want to collaborate to save your own skin, but its all or nothing for me.
I'd rather have the government tell me I cant speak at all than tell them what parts of my freedom of speech I am willing to give up. Same with the 2A. I'll stand my ground and draw the line in the sand. Hopefully, many people not willing to collaborate will stand with me.
Magic_Salad0892
12-20-12, 00:50
Reps
http://www.house.gov/representatives/#state_al
Govs (just click on your state)
http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Governors.shtml
Senators
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
We need to work to copy and paste and send that letter to all of them. Make them know us by our first names. (Even the ones we KNOW to be anti-2A, like Diane Finestein. I sent her the letter too.)
I feel like this is the best place to start. Get writing.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-20-12, 00:50
I'll see you all you guys in undergound federal prison someday :lol:
I was 15 in 2004, living in a house with one .22 rifle and a .38 pistol that hadn't been fired for 10 years. At the moment I became an adult, I wound up stationed in California for the next 4 years of my life, unable to hoard magazines. Come 2012, and I don't have the money to go buy everything I need all at once. Some of us are lacking, but not for a lack of trying.
Ive got maybe 8 glock mags and 20-25 AR mags. I intend to double that, but we'll see how that goes. I was planning to buy my second upper this month, but there are none to be found...
I get that. I was "po boy" broke when the 89 ban was coming down and didn't have much play money when we got hit by the 94 ban so I didn't get in on things before they got crazy.
And scottryan has a point about the next generation. My response was directed to him specifically as he seemed worried about "his" magazine purchase needs in the next 30 to 40 years.
With any ban, with any new regulation there are people who are going to get left out. The states that currently do not allow SBRs are unlikely to allow AR-15s as NFA weapons. So that means people lose NOW.
I simply think we have arrived at the point where there is nothing left to give. They basically want to ban 20th century firearm designs and any more modern firearm.
I miss my father but part of me is glad he isn't here to see this crap. I was hoping I'd never see the day.
I haven't always been the NRA's biggest cheerleader and I don't have a great deal of faith in some of the firearm "sportsmen" and "enthusiasts" of this country but I think this is finally the BIG ONE and we all need to get on the same page and get our shit together and be ready to push back....HARD.
One thing we did not have in 86, 89 and 94 was the internet we have today. The Zumbo incident would have resulted in a blurb in a few periodicals and some angry letters if it occurred in 1990 and little more. Of course it's easy to fight when it's one of your own for not toeing the line. Recoil magazine really can't do anything to you in return.
I just hope enough people can find their backbone.
I'll see you all you guys in undergound federal prison someday :lol:
We must hang together. Or we will surely hang separately.
Moose-Knuckle
12-20-12, 03:06
I'll see you all you guys in undergound federal prison someday :lol:
You laugh, but all those DHS/FEMA installations are not for an "influx of illegals".
Magic_Salad0892
12-20-12, 03:27
I find it very unlikely that they'd do the whole political prisoner thing. But I'll be honest, I'd rather be in prison with you guys, then walking around on the street knowing I bent over, and let future generations grow up in a de-armed America.
I'm pretty much the next generation.
I have 3 and only 3 p-mag kits (well six, but I told promised my buddy the other half of the kits). And I have even less ammo. :( Like 120 rounds tops. Christ.
I completed my rifle just 4 days prior to the election and I feel like I scored the last BCM carrier group that was available for sale.
I find it very unlikely that they'd do the whole political prisoner thing. But I'll be honest, I'd rather be in prison with you guys, then walking around on the street knowing I bent over, and let future generations grow up with no birthrights in a constitution-less surveillance state run by an unelected socialist oligarchy.
Fixed it.
30 cal slut
12-20-12, 05:19
This ought to cause the NRA ILA's bank account to soar off the charts.
How many AR makers are there? Like 20+? There's going to be multi 6 digit donations coming in, if they think their businesses are in jeopardy.
Well over 150 at this point.
I find it very unlikely that they'd do the whole political prisoner thing...
Prison? "Mass immigration" detention camps? Why not? Noncompliance will make you a "dangerous gun criminal", probably a felon for simply continuing to own an inanimate object that is specifically protected in the Bill of Rights. (sounds crazy, huh?)
They have been planning for this:
http://info.publicintelligence.net/USAMPS-CivilDisturbanceOps.pdf
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/10/06/homeland-security-preparing-for-massive-civil-war/
Magic_Salad0892
12-20-12, 05:23
Prison? "Mass immigration" detention camps? Why not? Noncompliance will make you a "dangerous gun criminal", probably a felon for simply continuing to own an inanimate object that is specifically protected in the Bill of Rights. (sounds crazy, huh?)
They have been planning for this:
http://info.publicintelligence.net/USAMPS-CivilDisturbanceOps.pdf
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/10/06/homeland-security-preparing-for-massive-civil-war/
That looks a little conspiracy theorist. And there is a lot of Jew hate in the comments. If that's the audience they (veteranstoday, I can't read the other one) go after, then they're pretty suspect.
Okay. I'll admit. That looks pretty weird.
Well, I just browsed through that "Veterans Today" site and that's probably not the best source. :fie: However, this is a pretty good video that covers some of the preparations I referenced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuP7_zKZVFE
Magic_Salad0892
12-20-12, 05:28
Well, I just browsed through that "Veterans Today" site and that's probably not the best source. :fie: However, this is a pretty good video that covers some of the preparations I referenced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuP7_zKZVFE
I'm not sure what to make of it just yet, but thanks for the information, bro.
Google "DHS ammo" for a bunch of sources more legit than the "Veterans" hit I got earlier.
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=dhs+ammo&oq=dhs+ammo&gs_l=hp.3..0l2j0i20j0.990336.990808.3.992534.4.4.0.0.0.2.895.2922.4-1j1j2.4.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.PjgVllY73pA&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.aWM&fp=57b747fe93862d6b&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=629
Interesting quote from one of them:
"...War in Iraq Consumes about 70,000,000 (70 Million) Rounds of Ammunition Each Year, which would take about 20 years to consume 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition ordered by the Department of Homeland Security alone, not including all the ammunition ordered by the weather service, Social Security, etc! 20 Years To Use All 1.4 Billion Rounds Of This Ammo?"
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/09/why_does_homeland_security_need_14_billion_rounds_of_ammunition.html#ixzz2FahcO8Ji
Magic_Salad0892
12-20-12, 05:39
Google "DHS ammo" for a bunch of sources more legit than the "Veterans" hit I got earlier.
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=dhs+ammo&oq=dhs+ammo&gs_l=hp.3..0l2j0i20j0.990336.990808.3.992534.4.4.0.0.0.2.895.2922.4-1j1j2.4.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.PjgVllY73pA&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.aWM&fp=57b747fe93862d6b&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=629
Interesting quote from one of them:
"...War in Iraq Consumes about 70,000,000 (70 Million) Rounds of Ammunition Each Year, which would take about 20 years to consume 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition ordered by the Department of Homeland Security alone, not including all the ammunition ordered by the weather service, Social Security, etc! 20 Years To Use All 1.4 Billion Rounds Of This Ammo?"
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/09/why_does_homeland_security_need_14_billion_rounds_of_ammunition.html#ixzz2FahcO8Ji
Yeah, that's ****in' weird, bro. And being that so many sites have it up, you might be onto something.
wetidlerjr
12-20-12, 06:19
The "Today" show just reported that the POTUS will seek new gun controls through "executive action" as well as legislation. They did not elaborate on what that "executive action" might be.
I would surmise that since Republican Reps are already indicating that more gun control legislation will not likely be passed, that the POTUS will use such action to counter this.
Forget all the conspiracy theorist FEMA camp nonsense and get back to reality. Here is the reality. We are going to have to make a decision as gun owners as to what we are going to do.
Are you going to turn your shit in, like they did in the U.K and Australia? Do you think that giving away more rights is going to settle this? If so, you have not been living on Planet Reality. Make no mistake about it. If they get rid of assault weapons and no one stands up, they will go after the shotguns, "sniper rifles", concealable handguns, etc.. next.
Just take a look. Remember when the buzzword was "Saturday Night Specials" and cheap handguns?
Those of us who have been around know what this really is. We also know that they aren't going to stop. What do you think happens when someone goes to a school, mall, etc... with a sawn off Remington shotgun and 2 revolvers with "high capacity" speedloaders and kills 10 people?
Magic_Salad0892
12-20-12, 06:27
Forget all the conspiracy theorist FEMA camp nonsense and get back to reality.
Thanks for reminding me. I was lost for a minute.
All the folks that didn't vote for Romney because he wasn't perfect enough can thank themselves when they are turnig over their guns or tax forms.
No you can thank all the dumbasses that voted for Romney and Obama. All they did was buy in to the globalist's puppets....like they were told to do.
Dont think for ONE second that Mitty wouldnt be doing the same thing right now....you know since he did go after the guns in Mass.
You laugh, but all those DHS/FEMA installations are not for an "influx of illegals".
Any influx of illegals will be a population they'd rather have to replace us. More willing dependents on the state who keep voting them back into power. There is zero chance any camps of any nature, if they really exist, are intended for good little socialists.
No you can thank all the dumbasses that voted for Romney and Obama. All they did was buy in to the globalist's puppets....like they were told to do.
Dont think for ONE second that Mitty wouldnt be doing the same thing right now....you know since he did go after the guns in Mass.
It's doubtful he would go out of his way to make executive orders. He might make a show of things by "working with congress to reform gun laws" or whatever, but there's no way he would go as far as the current administration.
Magazine capacity limit possibly could be a number less than 10. Rifles magazines might be limited to 5 rds and handguns to 8.
I just heard on the radio that Gov Coumo of NY may be looking at having any firearm capable of holding more than seven rounds reclassified and an assault weapon.
Business_Casual
12-20-12, 06:59
Dont think for ONE second that Mitty wouldnt be doing the same thing right now...
Mr Romney would not be president yet - Obama is in office until January 2013.
bc
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-20-12, 07:07
Guns, I don't have any guns. I just come here for the witty banter and sunny dispositions....
We are also making the very dangerous assumption that it will be either an EO OR Legislation. It could very well be both. A little of each watered down at different times to add up to a big measure. An EO now to make things "safer" till the hill can work their end.
I just heard on the radio that Gov Coumo of NY may be looking at having any firearm capable of holding more than seven rounds reclassified and an assault weapon.
Wow I'm glad I live in TX. The only thing Perry cares more about than money is local acceptance as popularity. So far his head is in the right place. What can the state level provide to bend or lessen a full on AWB with registration? Can they do anything or is pretty much like if FED-Daddy says so, your doin it as long as your under his roof?
JBecker 72
12-20-12, 08:02
Wow I'm glad I live in TX. The only thing Perry cares more about than money is local acceptance as popularity. So far his head is in the right place. What can the state level provide to bend or lessen a full on AWB with registration? Can they do anything or is pretty much like if FED-Daddy says so, your doin it as long as your under his roof?
Look at the states that legalized marijuana.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Forget all the conspiracy theorist FEMA camp nonsense and get back to reality. Here is the reality. We are going to have to make a decision as gun owners as to what we are going to do.
Are you going to turn your shit in, like they did in the U.K and Australia?...
With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely: The "conspiracy theory" chicken-little stuff about FEMA camps is probably mostly bunk. However, the TRUTH is that the govt has made some provision for dealing with mass "unrest" and/or potential mass noncompliance with something like a "register it or else assault weapon ban". How easy would it be for "assault weapon" owners who refuse to hand them in or register them to be declared "terrorists" or declared to be "engaged in belligerent acts"?
NDAA 2013: Rand Paul warns indefinite detention is back
http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/high-tide-and-turn/2012/dec/20/ndaa-2013-rand-paul-warns-indefinite-detention-bac/
The points you made about deciding what we are going to do, or not do, are extremely valid. The point I'm trying to make is that everybody needs to face the reality of the potential consequences of their action or inaction. By that I mean compliance or noncompliance.
An observation of truth from one of the favorite historical figures of members of the current administration:
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." -- Mao Tse-Tung
We don't even know for certain what they have planned, but we can be assured that they are no more kind-hearted and forgiving than Mao was. If they say "turn them in, or register them, or else", they will mean it.
Mauser KAR98K
12-20-12, 08:07
Look at the states that legalized marijuana.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
If anything is passed, I hope states like Texas, Tennessee, Arizona and the like nullify these laws.
I hope whomever makes the bronze sculpture of me down the road is able to capture the look of my crazy ass goatee.
There is no way someone will drag me off for re-education while I am still breathing. I guess we will see what happens. Everyone will have a choice to make. Surrender now or later. I'll take the cup of later with a large chocolate donut.
With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely: The "conspiracy theory" chicken-little stuff about FEMA camps is probably mostly bunk. However, the TRUTH is that the govt has made some provision for dealing with mass "unrest" and/or potential mass noncompliance with something like a "register it or else assault weapon ban". How easy would it be for "assault weapon" owners who refuse to hand them in or register them to be declared "terrorists" or declared to be "engaged in belligerent acts"?
NDAA 2013: Rand Paul warns indefinite detention is back
http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/high-tide-and-turn/2012/dec/20/ndaa-2013-rand-paul-warns-indefinite-detention-bac/
The points you made about deciding what we are going to do, or not do, are extremely valid. The point I'm trying to make is that everybody needs to face the reality the potential consequences of their action or inaction.
An observation of truth from one of the favorite historical figures of members of the current administration:
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." -- Mao Tse-Tung
We don't even know for certain what they have planned, but we can be assured that they are no more kind-hearted and forgiving than Mao was. If they say "turn them in, or register them, or else", they will mean it.
I hope whomever makes the bronze sculpture of me down the road is able to capture the look of my crazy ass goatee.
There is no way someone will drag me off for re-education while I am still breathing. I guess we will see what happens. Everyone will have a choice to make. Surrender now or later. I'll take the cup of later with a large chocolate donut.
The shitty thing is that they won't announce, "Hey everybody, please come along with us to the internment camp." Nor will they be likely to go around trying to collect the newly "outlawed" ugly guns. IF any of this comes to pass, and IF they can get anybody to enforce it, it will be enforced one person at a time just like violations of the NFA are enforced right now. Even if they only get a 10% compliance rate, everybody who still owns an unregistered ugly gun will be a felon, and not likely to make much noise about it.
Boiling the frog slowly.
:(
Wow I'm glad I live in TX.
Right now I’m kind of wishing I had stayed there.
Littlelebowski
12-20-12, 08:59
You laugh, but all those DHS/FEMA installations are not for an "influx of illegals".
Funny how what you believe directly conflicts with what the FEMA employee I know personally who is active on this site tells me.
The POTUS cannot rewrite Title 18 without Congress, and charge people with crimes that do not exist. If he tries, I suggest you move to your favorite Pacific Island because it means that we have become a dictatorship.
Although quit articulate in your opinion, it is quite naive.
Ask yourself this question, has he circumvented the Constitution by Executive Orders before?
Sadly there are many in government that are doing their best to remove the checks and balances that were originally established.
I know many will "need to be right" about there being nothing to worry about. Will you admit you are wrong if/when it happens? I hope to my God that I am.
Doc Safari
12-20-12, 09:23
Is there a way to look into what executive orders the president could legitimately issue?
For the last few years, I have heard that imported "assault weapons", mags, etc., could be banned by the ATF simply expanding the definition of what is "not for sporting purposes." I do not believe they have the legal authority to affect anything but imports with this.
I also have heard that the multiple purchase reporting requirement for long guns in the border states is going to be extended to all 50 states any day now.
In a way, after rethinking this: Barry's commission on gun violence almost looks like a delaying tactic. If he wanted to capitalize on the raw emotions right after the shooting, he would have issued an executive order banning whatever immediately if he had the legal authority to do so. By appointing Joe Bite-me to some guvmunt committee or something, he's in effect decided to address this with meetings and memos.
He already said to the Brady Bunch that he would pursure gun control under the radar long before this shooting happened. If this is truly the "don't let a crisis go to waste" crowd, what is he waiting for? Cooling his heels while some committee recommends a bunch of bullshit in a week or two just allows some of the raw emotion to die down. He's letting the moment slip away.
Is it because he's an incompetent, or just because he knows he can't do all that much?
Just a thought.
Is there a way to look into what executive orders the president could legitimately issue?
For the last few years, I have heard that imported "assault weapons", mags, etc., could be banned by the ATF simply expanding the definition of what is "not for sporting purposes." I do not believe they have the legal authority to affect anything but imports with this.
I also have heard that the multiple purchase reporting requirement for long guns in the border states is going to be extended to all 50 states any day now.
In a way, after rethinking this: Barry's commission on gun violence almost looks like a delaying tactic. If he wanted to capitalize on the raw emotions right after the shooting, he would have issued an executive order banning whatever immediately if he had the legal authority to do so. By appointing Joe Bite-me to some guvmunt committee or something, he's in effect decided to address this with meetings and memos.
He already said to the Brady Bunch that he would pursure gun control under the radar long before this shooting happened. If this is truly the "don't let a crisis go to waste" crowd, what is he waiting for? Cooling his heels while some committee recommends a bunch of bullshit in a week or two just allows some of the raw emotion to die down. He's letting the moment slip away.
Is it because he's an incompetent, or just because he knows he can't do all that much?
Just a thought.
My line of thinking, it is foolish to question that they don't already have their ducks in a row on this. They've known from day 1. The pause this "commission" gives them is purposeful, giving us time to begin to doubt ourselves and what we stand for. They are probably hoping that by mid Jan we would have worried ourselves so sick about what we stand to lose, that we'll beg for a comprimise just to hold onto some shreds of what we had. Don't think for one second they are just now trying to figure out THEIR solutions.
I may be way off base but I'm guessing they are calculating the losses of seats in both the house and senate. There could be a huge turn over in 2014 and a lame duck. Not all dems are batshit crazy and I'm guessing quite a few are firearm owners. I see union logos on jackets all the time at the LGS.
Doc Safari
12-20-12, 09:44
Both of you make valid points.
I think they are gambling that the emotions will remain high, and that just won't be the case. Look at Columbine.
If I were an anti-gun president and I knew I had this crisis where even gun owners are saying something must be done, I would have gone on national TV the next day and said, "THAT TEARS IT. You have 48 hours to turn in your assault weapons or we will send SWAT teams to every gun shop in America to collect the 4473's and WE WILL GET THOSE GUNS!"
Reasons why he didn't:
1. He's an incompetent
2. He knows there woud be a civil war
3. He knows he doesn't have the legal authority
4. He knows that even this shooting didn't give him that much political capital
5. Like you guys are saying: they are carefully calculating what they can get away with and still stay in office.
Don't get me wrong, I'm trying to look at this tactically.
While we we don't know what any future new laws or restrictions may be, I wonder if getting a bodyguard certification might be a way to circumvent it ? Who am I going to bodyguard ? My family and myself.
"I got my Bodyguard Certification from PSU intitially to protect my right to carry concealed and own, hunt and collect in the face of Obama and the Democratic Congress. Bodyguards, Security Consultants, Celebrity/ Executive and Dignitary protection are all exceptions to the new bans, and will be grandfathered no matter how extreme the bans get. I was pleasantly surprised when my business began to provide significant new income as a side benefit. This is a great occupation, whether you specialize in security training or actual protection... (Click here to read more)"
http://www.becomeabodyguard.com/
While we we don't know what any future new laws or restrictions may be, I wonder if getting a bodyguard certification might be a way to circumvent it ? Who am I going to bodyguard ? My family and myself.
State firearm laws still apply. Being a bodyguard doesn't give you the ability to carry if a state doesn't allow it. It isn't a loophole unfortunately.
Although quit articulate in your opinion, it is quite naive.
Ask yourself this question, has he circumvented the Constitution by Executive Orders before?
I already asked myself this and I can find no actual instance where someone was imprisoned by this President for violating an executive order that was not grounded in Title 18 (the Federal Criminal Code). There were some instances where terrorists were targeted and killed on foreign soil under executive authority after they took up arms against their country, but even those instances were taken before the judiciary which declined to intervene.
Most of the executive orders from this administration that adversely affect us have dealt with the environment, oil drilling on public lands, deep sea drilling, etc. Unfortunately, each of those executive orders were backed by authority granted in actual legislation or the Constitution. Shitty laws have shitty consequences.
There have been times when Obama suggested that he would impose unlawful executive orders. However, those suggestions never made it to policy before they were slapped down in the court of public opinion. There were other times when this administration used executive authority to conduct illegal activity (FAF), but these were not examples where citizens where imprisoned for violating the executive edicts.
So, yes - I'll admit if I'm wrong. In the meantime, I'm not going to waste time worrying about rumors - especially when the OP has admitted in a follow-up post that the original concern has little long-term legs.
Doc Safari
12-20-12, 10:33
Let's say Barry comes up with some way to quote some obscure law or Obamacare or whateverthe**** and issue a decree that all present and future "assault weapons" and their owners must be registered.
He's gotta know that millions will not comply.
So what then?
Accept the fact that millions of Americans prefer to salute him with the middle finger, or proactively do something to round up and prosecute the non-compliers?
They don't have enough prisons to hold the non-compliers.
And while you'd be less than tickled pink to end up being the dumb son-of-a-bitch that is arrested and made an example of: just those public arrests could cause the rest of the non-compliers to get real serious about fighting back. Some of those people may go full retard and do some pretty stupid stuff in the name of "fighting back".
Any smart politician has got to know this.
So instead of knowingly throwing the country into potential chaos, you instead use said obscure law to require registration on future purchases.
That makes everybody "happy".
The antis get to claim victory. The present owners get to keep their EBR's and go back to watching the NFL on their big screen TV's. The gun industry gets to keep making EBR's.
Only future EBR owners are stuck with instantly becoming a part of some national database.
I could be totally wrong, but I'm trying to get in tune with how these bastards think.
State firearm laws still apply. Being a bodyguard doesn't give you the ability to carry if a state doesn't allow it. It isn't a loophole unfortunately.
My state , Ohio, allows carry, but I was more curious on how having a certification might apply to future possession or ownership of AR'S or hi-cap 9's. I would think the armed bodyguards in my state protecting some politician or the bodyguards protecting some of the Hollywood stars will be given a pass.
Doc Glockster,
Your scenario makes perfect sense... but it assumes two things:
1) That they are reasonably intelligent, and
2) That they do not want people going "full retard".
With everything they have done related to economics, "health care", etc, I have come to the conclusion that either they are incredibly stupid/incompetent, or they WANT the country to come unglued so that they can replace it with their socialist utopia.
Eric Holder is suggesting a role for Executive Order in controlling guns as of about an hour ago. Just heard his interview on Fox News.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/eric-holder-executive-orders-on-gun-control/article/2516519?custom_click=rss#.UNNVObY9XGw
Eric Holder is suggesting a role for Executive Order in controlling guns as of about an hour ago. Just heard his interview on Fox News.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/eric-holder-executive-orders-on-gun-control/article/2516519?custom_click=rss#.UNNVObY9XGw
Yep. Here is a quote from that article:
Attorney General Eric Holder indicated that President Obama might turn to executive orders to implement his agenda on guns in the wake of the Sandy Hook shooting.
“The Obama administration will consider executive actions and specific proposals for legislation as part of its gun policy response to the school massacre in Newtown, Connecticut, U.S., Attorney General Eric Holder said on Wednesday,” per Reuters.
Holder, who is traveling to Newtown today, said they are considering their options on executive orders: “Those options will have to include a ‘strong and robust’ Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the chronically under-funded agency that enforces federal gun laws, he said.”
Business_Casual
12-20-12, 13:14
It's starting to sound more and more like the Chicago way - threaten non-existant EO; if you don't get what you want and use the media to brow beat the weak tit Republican leadership into doing what you want.
bc
My line of thinking, it is foolish to question that they don't already have their ducks in a row on this. They've known from day 1. The pause this "commission" gives them is purposeful, giving us time to begin to doubt ourselves and what we stand for. They are probably hoping that by mid Jan we would have worried ourselves so sick about what we stand to lose, that we'll beg for a comprimise just to hold onto some shreds of what we had. Don't think for one second they are just now trying to figure out THEIR solutions.
Agreed!! I'll tell you something else too. Many people on this site recommend the book "Deep survival --- who lives, who dies and why"
I have not finished it yet but the first half of the book has been about highly trained professionals believing in a system they have configured in their minds and become so perfectly accustomed to that when reality hits they fail and die.
Our false reality is that elections should function in a rational manner similar to what we have become accustomed to.
---Reality is elections are being determined by "New Americans" or a New American thought or other such situation. Not necessarily by rational thinking.
Our false reality is that SCOTUS is rational.
---Reality is that SCOTUS may now function in a manner that we would not plan for and even find it hard to accept as possible.
Our false reality is that the Oath of Presidency states the Constitution will be protected.
---Reality is OUR CURRENT PRESIDENT WAS ELECTED ON THE PREMISE THAT THE CONSTITUTION IS WRONG ! ! ! ! !
Our false reality is that our representatives will protect us.
---Reality is they are probably the most vulnerable to being absorbed and altered by the DC machine simply by their proximity and dependance on it.
We are functioning in a false mental world that we have known to be true that no longer really exists yet we are not altering our behavior to prevent ourselves from being in a fatal mistake.
It is amazing to read that book, listen to the stories of highly trained professionals being killed by senseless actions and compare it to how we react to the Obama administration. We are acting like all the people that died.
The Obama administration and it's support citizens are the new variable which we are failing to recognize and accept as real and dangerous.
The days of "That will never happen, because..." are over.
tb-av,
I think you are exactly right. We need to accept our new reality and adapt to deal with it, or we're sunk. This ain't 1994.
I guess I learned the lessons of the 86 ban. Once they are re classed, what keeps them from closing that registry?
A permanent AWB will act like a closed registry by default.
I think our only choice is to GIVE THEM NOTHING. I understand you feel differently.
I don't want to give them anything. But if I had to chose between making AWs NFA or a permanent AWB, I will chose the NFA route.
Moose-Knuckle
12-22-12, 02:10
Any influx of illegals will be a population they'd rather have to replace us. More willing dependents on the state who keep voting them back into power. There is zero chance any camps of any nature, if they really exist, are intended for good little socialists.
That's kind of my point, we already have a mass influx of illegals that they are not doing anything about. These type of installations were posed with Rex 84, Cable Splicer, and Gargen Plot. Nothing new. If you really want to feel warm and fuzzy Goolge Bill Ayers (one of many mentors of Obama) and the Weather Underground's plan for such installations. I won't post links so as not to derail this thread any further.
Funny how what you believe directly conflicts with what the FEMA employee I know personally who is active on this site tells me.
This is my surprised face . . . :eek:
Well, Biden all but confirmed that it will happen (EO), and what responses that I have seen people post from the letters that they have sent off to the legislators is leaning towards a bill getting passed.
They are really abusing the "For the safety of the children" catch phrase.
It's almost like they [legislators] accept the fact that the laws are not doing any good, so elimination of the tool is the only option left. This is not good. There is no way that they can make them disappear.
By their own logic, it is still only going to impact the law abiding citizen, and the criminals will not be turning theirs in. They know that their sport is about to become open season, and no bag limit - why the hell would they even ponder turning theirs in.
gods only knows what kind of nastiness the terrorists are pondering with a generally unarmed US population.
Doc Safari
12-22-12, 14:21
By their own logic, it is still only going to impact the law abiding citizen, and the criminals will not be turning theirs in. They know that their sport is about to become open season, and no bag limit - why the hell would they even ponder turning theirs in.
I've got some news for you. Millions of law abiding gun owners will not be turning theirs in either.
I think the waterways could become downright unsafe from all the boating accidents that are getting ready to happen.
:jester:
I think the waterways could become downright unsafe from all the boating accidents that are getting ready to happen.
I won't be burying, or turning in my rightful property, I won't be sneaking about, a criminal in my own land either! This Obama is not even an American, for that matter, neither are any of the neo-democrats/progressives! All of this violence in the new amerika is easily tracked, it coincides perfectly with the ascension of the "marxist/leninist political infestation" of the democratic party, from lunatic fringe, into its ruling class....Plenty of jackboot types right here on this forum that will happily do their bidding, kicking in doors if given the go-ahead, I plan on meeting them there....I'm afraid that I'll be clinging to my guns and beliefs right to the bloody end...
JBecker 72
12-22-12, 17:09
Everyone keeps talking about the "New America". I like the old America much better thank you.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Littlelebowski
12-22-12, 17:17
I won't be burying, or turning in my rightful property, I won't be sneaking about, a criminal in my own land either! This Obama is not even an American, for that matter, neither are any of the neo-democrats/progressives! All of this violence in the new amerika is easily tracked, it coincides perfectly with the ascension of the "marxist/leninist political infestation" of the democratic party, from lunatic fringe, into its ruling class....Plenty of jackboot types right here on this forum that will happily do their bidding, kicking in doors if given the go-ahead, I plan on meeting them there....I'm afraid that I'll be clinging to my guns and beliefs right to the bloody end...
How many LEOs on this forum have you met?
I won't be burying, or turning in my rightful property, I won't be sneaking about, a criminal in my own land either! This Obama is not even an American, for that matter, neither are any of the neo-democrats/progressives! All of this violence in the new amerika is easily tracked, it coincides perfectly with the ascension of the "marxist/leninist political infestation" of the democratic party, from lunatic fringe, into its ruling class....Plenty of jackboot types right here on this forum that will happily do their bidding, kicking in doors if given the go-ahead, I plan on meeting them there....I'm afraid that I'll be clinging to my guns and beliefs right to the bloody end...
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I've been a cop for 22 years and have not and do not plan on kicking in doors to get your guns. It's all right for you to make dumb assed comments to members you've never met? You need to take a step back and a breath.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I've been a cop for 22 years and have not and do not plan on kicking in doors to get your guns. It's all right for you to make dumb assed comments to members you've never met? You need to take a step back and a breath.
NOLA was not some "dumb assed" overreaction, those weren't cops & "ahh" contractors kicking in doors, confiscating lawfully held firearms, and in more then a few unreported instances, shooting the lawful owner, then pawning it off as "gangbangers!" That didn't happen, did it? :rolleyes:...You need to take a step back, and see just what it is, thats unfolding before your very eyes....;)
BTW, I don't doubt your sense of duty or honor one bit, likely, most rank & file LEO share it to some extent, however we do have that one particular "alphabet soup agency" to consider don't we? It seems to me, that they are more then capable of handling shock troop duty for Mr Obama, and more then willing...
NOLA was not some "dumb assed" overreaction, those weren't cops & "ahh" contractors kicking in doors, confiscating lawfully held firearms, and in more then a few unreported instances, shooting the lawful owner, then pawning it off as "gangbangers!" That didn't happen, did it? :rolleyes:...You need to take a step back, and see just what it is, thats unfolding before your very eyes....;)
Oh, so you were refrerring to members of this site that committed those crimes?
Plenty of jackboot types right here on this forum that will happily do their bidding, kicking in doors if given the go-ahead, I plan on meeting them there....I'm afraid that I'll be clinging to my guns and beliefs right to the bloody end...
Simmer down bro. I am as critical as anyone when it comes to police overstepping their bounds but you're assertion doesn't ring true, not here anyway.
I have spoke to several friends of mine who are cops and they've agreed that young, impressionable officers might be coerced into a gun confiscation type scenario but the vast majority of guys they know wouldn't even contemplate it.
Are there a few pricks with badges on gun forums? Absolutely. However, there are plenty of pricks without badges and you're coming off as one now, so take a step back, have some eggnog and enjoy Christmas.
I'm off to take the kids to see some Christmas lights.
Well, Biden all but confirmed that it will happen (EO), and what responses that I have seen people post from the letters that they have sent off to the legislators is leaning towards a bill getting passed.
They are really abusing the "For the safety of the children" catch phrase.
Sounds familiar,
"The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."
— Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”
Oh, so you were refrerring to members of this site that committed those crimes?
Chief - No sense in baiting him bro. ;)
Chief - No sense in baiting him bro. ;)
You my friend are correct. Thanks! I usually stay out of general discussion and know why. "Blessed are the peacemakers", even on the web.
Oh, so you were refrerring to members of this site that committed those crimes?
There are more then a few on this site, and other sites, that will not hesitate to perform that function, how you can deny that, is beyond me. If that hurts you, well I'm sorry, but its the truth, and you know it is...
Chief - No sense in baiting him bro. ;)
Baiting? I'm not playing that game, nor am I in need of any simmering down, I'm just stating the obvious, he knows just what it is that I'm referring too, its not an indictment of all LEO by any means, however to delude ourselves into denying their existence, would be the very height of folly. Why just the other day we had a good half dozen loudly proclaiming that certain classes(lower classes)should be denied access to AR's altogether, right here in this sub-forum...
There are more then a few on this site, and other sites, that will not hesitate to perform that function, how you can deny that, is beyond me. If that hurts you, well I'm sorry, but its the truth, and you know it is...
The 20/60/20 law applies to almost all things in human behavior.
20% won't under any circumstances.
60% might, after they weighed their options and consequences.
20% will without hesitation.
Insert your action here.
The 20/60/20 law applies to almost all things in human behavior.
20% won't under any circumstances.
60% might, after they weighed their options and consequences.
20% will without hesitation.
Insert your action here.
There it is...
Littlelebowski
12-22-12, 19:32
Baiting? I'm not playing that game, nor am I in need of any simmering down, I'm just stating the obvious, he knows just what it is that I'm referring too, its not an indictment of all LEO by any means, however to delude ourselves into denying their existence, would be the very height of folly. Why just the other day we had a good half dozen loudly proclaiming that certain classes(lower classes)should be denied access to AR's altogether, right here in this sub-forum...
I'd like to see that thread. Seriously.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Baiting? I'm not playing that game, nor am I in need of any simmering down, I'm just stating the obvious, he knows just what it is that I'm referring too, its not an indictment of all LEO by any means, however to delude ourselves into denying their existence, would be the very height of folly. Why just the other day we had a good half dozen loudly proclaiming that certain classes(lower classes)should be denied access to AR's altogether, right here in this sub-forum...
Nobody said anyone should be denied access to firearms.
You fail to understand my statement about the type of people that buy guns.
Avid gun enthusiasts tend to go toward Colt, FN, HK, etc. These people are generally smarter, professional, rational level headed people that are unlikely to **** it up for the rest of us. Collectors, serious gun users, trainers, fall into this category.
RRA, Bushy, DPMS etc cater to a buyer that is on the lower end of the spectrum. The average gun buyer or survivalist. Adam Lanza and his mom were not avid gun people.
And I agree with you that some LE are out there waiting to go from door to door to confiscate anything they can.
Alaskapopo
12-22-12, 21:04
How many LEOs on this forum have you met?
Thanks for bringining this up. This topic has caused me much lost sleep the last few days because I am worried as you all are. All my fellow LEO's I have talked with feel the same way and support the 2nd amendment. What the ANTI's don't understand is the people they want to do their dirty work are pro gun and most of us would refuse an order to take peoples guns.
Pat
Alaskapopo
12-22-12, 21:07
I'd like to see that thread. Seriously.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
He is talking about Scottyryan and I don't believe he is a LEO and he did not say we should take guns from the lower classes. While I did not agree with Scottyryan Denali is misrepresenting what he said greatly. Yes Denali likes to bait. Just a few years ago on Glocktalk he was anti AR15's for home defense.
Pat
I'm sure they can hire new people to go around confiscating guns. They probably will use DHS employed people and not even get local LEO's involved.
I'm sure the libtards won't even bat an eye where the money for that will come from.
Alaskapopo
12-22-12, 21:08
There are more then a few on this site, and other sites, that will not hesitate to perform that function, how you can deny that, is beyond me. If that hurts you, well I'm sorry, but its the truth, and you know it is...
Name one!.
Pat
Thanks for bringining this up. This topic has caused me much lost sleep the last few days because I am worried as you all are. All my fellow LEO's I have talked with feel the same way and support the 2nd amendment. What the ANTI's don't understand is the people they want to do their dirty work are pro gun and most of us would refuse an order to take peoples guns.
Pat
Thank you Pat. I know there are a lot of guys like out there, and we are counting on it when SHTF. But I do admit, I know there are at least some who do not feel the same.
Alaskapopo
12-22-12, 21:11
Thank you Pat. I know there are a lot of guys like out there, and we are counting on it when SHTF. But I do admit, I know there are at least some who do not feel the same.
I honestly have only met two mildy anti gun cops in my career so far in 13 years and he grew up in Chicago and did not like you guessed it assault rifles in civilian hands. We had some long arguments. The other was my first chief who was from California and with him I even had to fight long and hard to get AR15's authorized for our use.
Pat
I honestly have only met two mildy anti gun cops in my career so far in 13 years and he grew up in Chicago and did not like you guessed it assault rifles in civilian hands. We had some long arguments. The other was my first chief who was from California and with him I even had to fight long and hard to get AR15's authorized for our use.
Pat
Perhaps I jumped into the convo a bit late, but I'm not necessarily talking about being pro-gun or anti-gun...and I'm sure even that can vary from region to region. I'm talking about who will stand with us, and who will stand with their employer...who will follow orders, and who won't.
Alaskapopo
12-22-12, 21:21
Perhaps I jumped into the convo a bit late, but I'm not necessarily talking about being pro-gun or anti-gun...and I'm sure even that can vary from region to region. I'm talking about who will stand with us, and who will stand with their employer...who will follow orders, and who won't.
I understand what you are saying. There are 2 reason why most will not take your guns.
1. most cops are on your side on this issue.
2. It is suicide to go door to door to take peoples guns. Its a good way to get shot.
Pat
Name one!.
Pat
I cannot perform as requested, I'm simply stating the obvious, mathematically, its a certainty. I'm not "baiting" a select group, merely presenting the facts. NOLA demonstrated conclusively that elements of American LE will act in exactly that fashion if tasked so.
Alaskapopo
12-22-12, 21:31
I cannot perform as requested, I'm simply stating the obvious, mathematically, its a certainty. I'm not "baiting" a select group, merely presenting the facts. NOLA demonstrated conclusively that elements of American LE will act in exactly that fashion if tasked so.
You are back peddaling really fast. First you said there were several of us in the forum talking about siezing your guns. Then you said there are a few here and now your saying its mathmatical. Yea there are bad cops out there but that is not the majority. We as gun owners need to unite not divide ourselves.
Pat
You are back peddaling really fast. First you said there were several of us in the forum talking about siezing your guns. Then you said there are a few here and now your saying its mathmatical. Yea there are bad cops out there but that is not the majority. We as gun owners need to unite not divide ourselves.
Pat
I'm not backpeddaling at all, and I resent that you would say so! I'm moderating my statement in an attempt to salve some egos, it was never intended as a broad brush stroke. Regardless, I stand firmly behind my statement, there are more then a few LEA/LEO on this site that will do exactly as I have said, its not rocket science...
Alaskapopo
12-22-12, 21:59
I'm not backpeddaling at all, and I resent that you would say so! I'm moderating my statement in an attempt to salve some egos, it was never intended as a broad brush stroke. Regardless, I stand firmly behind my statement, there are more then a few LEA/LEO on this site that will do exactly as I have said, its not rocket science...
Well a lot of us resent being called jack booted thugs. I am not sure if your trolling or if you just have really far out beliefs. However like I said before we need to all come together as gun owners to win not divide into little groups and in fight.
Pat
We are eating our own here fellas.
Heck there maybe a few that would take your guns. There maybe a few pro Obama guys on here. Their may be a drug addict on here. There may be a member who is completely deaf. Y'all get my point. As large as M4C is of course the probability rises there might be a few on here that we fundamentally disagree with even though we have a common interest-'evil' black rifles.
In my AO I can echo what Pat says in that the vast majority of LEOs back US the civvie up. Two of my best friends are Patrolmen and both work in different agencies. I've had the discussion with both and neither of them has said anything about any of their fellow officers having problems with civilians owning ARs or other similar weapons.
I heard the most disgusting comment on the radio today. It was a lady from Connecticut. I am unsure if she was a family member of one of the victims but she was deeply upset during her comment. Here is her statement that I am sure the press drooled over while she was crying, "It takes 9 months to bring a life into this world and it takes just a few seconds for an AR15 to end it."
That's a paraphrase but pretty dang close to her actual words. Yes what she is going through is sad. It truly is. But attitudes like that is where our REAL fight is. Not here amongst each other.
-Jax
I will say one thing.
If we get past this presidency without any infringements on our second amendment (and I have faith that we can).
I will be extremely proud that we pulled through, and that we stood up for our rights.
It's an uphill battle for them, and for us. I think we can win. With faith, I think we will.
We can get past this.
We can. We're in for a tough fight mwe all need to make phone calls and write letters.
If it comes down to it, moving them to the NFA is better than having a new AWB.
[QUOTE=scottryan;1475251]I already have my mags. What about Americans that aren't old enough to own firearms yet?
You think they are going to just magically buy expensive preban AWs and mags?
Having a permanent AWB is going to create another class of firearms that only the elite can afford.
Well said. I was 14 in '86.
Well a lot of us resent being called jack booted thugs. I am not sure if your trolling or if you just have really far out beliefs. However like I said before we need to all come together as gun owners to win not divide into little groups and in fight.
Pat
Both. I resent it too. That's some "fuzzy math" too.
I'm sure they can hire new people to go around confiscating guns. They probably will use DHS employed people and not even get local LEO's involved.
I'm sure the libtards won't even bat an eye where the money for that will come from.
God forbid they use the TSA, then we are all screwed!!!
I am unsure if she was a family member of one of the victims but she was deeply upset during her comment. Here is her statement that I am sure the press drooled over while she was crying, "It takes 9 months to bring a life into this world and it takes just a few seconds for an AR15 to end it."
I saw that looped on a local cable news channel through out the day, I believe it was a mother of one of the children that was killed.
We are eating our own here fellas.
Heck there maybe a few that would take your guns. There maybe a few pro Obama guys on here. Their may be a drug addict on here. There may be a member who is completely deaf. Y'all get my point. As large as M4C is of course the probability rises there might be a few on here that we fundamentally disagree with even though we have a common interest-'evil' black rifles.
In my AO I can echo what Pat says in that the vast majority of LEOs back US the civvie up. Two of my best friends are Patrolmen and both work in different agencies. I've had the discussion with both and neither of them has said anything about any of their fellow officers having problems with civilians owning ARs or other similar weapons.
I heard the most disgusting comment on the radio today. It was a lady from Connecticut. I am unsure if she was a family member of one of the victims but she was deeply upset during her comment. Here is her statement that I am sure the press drooled over while she was crying, "It takes 9 months to bring a life into this world and it takes just a few seconds for an AR15 to end it."
That's a paraphrase but pretty dang close to her actual words. Yes what she is going through is sad. It truly is. But attitudes like that is where our REAL fight is. Not here amongst each other.
-Jax
You know what man, I'm going to go out on a ****ing limb here and shoot myself in the foot, maybe get banned from this site for saying it, but Jax I'm sorry, what that woman said is true, it's honest, it's from the gut, and it is, well, true!
I just had my first son, he's one month old, his name is Guthrie. My wife is Type 1 Diabetic, we had a 36 hour labor that ended in me almost loosing both of them to a complication that resulted in an emergency C Section. My wife worked damn hard to bring our son into this world, and it's true a bullet could take his life in a second, and I don't fault that mother for saying that!
I do fault however the media for exploiting it, and I ask all of us to keep these two differences in mind.
If one of these parents came up to me and asked me to turn in my AR I would say no. I would explain why, and I would use a statement very similar to the one SteyrAug posted in the opening of this threadhttps://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=118880 to justify why I own the weapons I own.
The truth of this matter is that we can all talk amongst ourselves about how ****ed up the reaction to this is, but the reality is that the average American has lost complete touch with what exactly the 2nd Amendment means. It is not our responsibility as gun owners and activists to react to a grieving mother by shaking our fist, that just makes us look like ****ing assholes, it really does.
I man I know and have a lot of respect for, that is pro gun has spent the last 15 years traveling to war zones rebuilding infrastructure. One of the best things he ever said was "One thing that is universal in this world is that people will do anything for their children. If you want to start a war, threaten their children, but ultimately everyone in this world that wants to do anything social or political is ultimately doing it for their children."
We can not mock or question the reaction people are having to the loss of their children right now, it will do nothing for this conversation.
We need to restart a conversation about what it means to be a responsible gun owner and citizen of this country. I, for one, have been offering to teach firearms safety and take people shooting who disagree with concept of firearms. I have also spent the majority of these last few days discussing how the actual firearms laws on the books work, and when I do that, most average citizens begin to realize that there are several controls already in place to prevent illegal purchases.
There are a lot of things we can do to prevent a ban from happening and to keep our gun rights. Some of those things may mean we have to meet in the middle on certain issues (I for one support an accurate and required system for States to report mental health records to the ATF, and a complete rethinking of the concept of Mental Health reporting on the part of the psychiatric community). But, if you want to see us loose out of the gate after this one start attacking the grieving parents.
I spent some time editing that post for spelling and grammar errors but I hit the wrong button to post. Baby brain has got me by the balls, time for bed.
Stay strong people, and don't be stupid or we may very well lose our 2nd Amendment.
montanadave
12-22-12, 23:28
Mac5.56: I appreciate your post and your honesty. Anybody says shit about banning you for speaking your mind openly and honestly can toss my ass too.
I'm sure they can hire new people to go around confiscating guns. They probably will use DHS employed people and not even get local LEO's involved.
I'm sure the libtards won't even bat an eye where the money for that will come from.
So you're saying they could finally find a use for the TSA brownshirts? :D
I man I know and have a lot of respect for, that is pro gun has spent the last 15 years traveling to war zones rebuilding infrastructure. One of the best things he ever said was "One thing that is universal in this world is that people will do anything for their children. If you want to start a war, threaten their children, but ultimately everyone in this world that wants to do anything social or political is ultimately doing it for their children."
Good, then maybe the NRA should start using that tactic too. They could start talking about how any legislation proposed is a direct attempt to make our children less free and less able to protect themselves.
Yes it takes a second for an ar 15 to end a life, but a musket, a pistol, a shotgun, a machete, a knife, a car, and any number of things can also end a life that quickly. They can't all end so many that fast though.
"One thing that is universal in this world is that people will do anything for their children. If you want to start a war, threaten their children, but ultimately everyone in this world that wants to do anything social or political is ultimately doing it for their children."
"The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."
— Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”
At least we are in agreement about the TSA... :) I ****ing hate em...
Anyway, this argument really does boil down to "children" so yes, you are right, an argument needs to be crafted about how firearms ownership should be a fundamental part of the next generation of Americans.
I am currently looking in to how to start a Skeet club sport at the college I work at. It may not be "black guns" but it is a shooting sport at a University in a liberal state.
"The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."
— Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”
Yep! And he was ****ing right. Ignore it to your detriment. Why the hell do you think so many tit for tat wars still exist on this planet?
You can quote Adolf Hitler at me all day, you're only proving my point.
You're not changing the reality that every family on the planet loves their children and will go to "war" to protect them.
Wasn't attacking you. Just pointing out that safety, and specifically children's safety, can make adults lose their goddamn minds.
montanadave
12-23-12, 00:31
Genes trump memes.
The desire to preserve one's progeny will invariably surpass the desire to preserve one's society.
Moose-Knuckle
12-23-12, 03:30
"The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."
— Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”
You just hit the X-ring. One of the first things Hitler did when he took power was to give every German house hold a small transistor radio that looped nothing but state media propaganda. He lied and told his people those damn Poles attacked a German village and murdered their children. And we all know what this snowballed into.
As for the lady that made the statement, how many anti-gun liberals are pro-abortion? The hypocrisy is ironical. With that said this is NOT an abortion thread so anyone who may take offense to my comment take it to another thread as this is a lightning rod topic that usually results in a thread lock.
Magic_Salad0892
12-23-12, 03:52
"The State must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."
— Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”
Wow. That's spot on.
Wow. That's spot on.
Want another one?
"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."
- Heinrich Himmler
I swear, we are diving headfirst into National Socialism here. No tin foil.
Magic_Salad0892
12-23-12, 04:21
Want another one?
"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."
- Heinrich Himmler
I swear, we are diving headfirst into National Socialism here. No tin foil.
That scares the shit out of me. And you're totally right.
Magic_Salad0892
12-23-12, 04:36
I'll add this.
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty."
- Adolf Hitler
Denali,
Here's what you fail to see. NOLA was a natural disaster and many people were confused and disorganized. You then had politicians make some stupid decisions. We have learned from that mistake in many ways. And many states have passed laws to prevent that stuff from happening again.
The bigger picture that you aren't seeing is that in the scenario that yourself and others portray the EJBT are going to knock on doors in the middle of the night and take you to the FEMA camps and confiscate your weapons. What you fail to realize is that there will be alot of people who aren't going to allow that. You will then start to see violence and bodies piling up on the nightly news at which time many will start to say "WTF"?.
Then you have to remember there will be many who refuse to carry out those orders. If you simply think there are a bunch of people standing in line to take their place you are seriously mistaken. One thing I learned in my years in the military and 6 years in middle eastern shitholes is that not everyone has the stomach for violence.
Exactly how long ago did we fight the Civil War? Ask yourself why.
I cannot perform as requested, I'm simply stating the obvious, mathematically, its a certainty. I'm not "baiting" a select group, merely presenting the facts. NOLA demonstrated conclusively that elements of American LE will act in exactly that fashion if tasked so.
Genes trump memes.
The desire to preserve one's progeny will invariably surpass the desire to preserve one's society.
Yeah but that cuts both ways. It's the same token by which people hate the socialists who want to separate them from their kids and take free reign to indoctrinate their children in public schools with a variety of propaganda. So the very same argument is one that drives a segment of the population to value their ability to defend themselves against tyranny for the sake of their children, which means a strong desire to preserve the 1st and 2nd amendments, among others.
Warning - Long winded post This is compiled from posts that I've made on other forums where I am disheartened to see that there are quite a few that are willing to accept new legislation on the 2a.
You do not take an isolated incident, or even a string of media sensationalized incidents and use that as a basis for new laws. In the overall scheme of things, it is insignificant by comparison. I know it sound's cold, and it certainly is not insignificant to those affected by these incidents, but One doe not make new laws in this day and age for an entire country based on the actions of a few (defined as less than 5)!
Lets look at the big picture, and if only the legislators could do the same;
There are over 142k schools (K-12, private, charter, and higher ed) in this country We've had, what 5 (I have no idea) actual mass shootings at a school in the last 20 years?
355 million people in this country, we are bound to have a few unpredictable people in the lot.
What sickens me is 20 in one day is unacceptable, but 25 per year nationally that are killed in school (K-12) sponsored events (sports) going to and from school, and other activities at school is perfectly fine. Guess what - add those numbers up and more children die at school every 2 years that way than from these isolated shooting incidents. If the child dies from a crime or from a broken neck in Football, the parents still lost their child.
Hell, the odds that that one's child will be killed in a traffic accident, abduction, Alcohol or Drug overdose, and any number of Darwin related situations are significantly higher than being shot at a school, movie theater, mall...In short, shit happens, so why is it that people can not accept that fact and get on with life without going batshit crazy about it?
I blame the media for this problem of hyper-focusing on this incident, and keeping the attention of the nation dialed in on one incident, in one town, in one day.
From the responses to letters sent to legislators that I have seen members post, it's almost like they accept that the laws are not working, and eliminating the tool altogether is the only way - follow in the footsteps of Canada, Europe, Australia, etc.
Yet by the same logic, the only tools that they are going to eliminate are those that 99.9% are owned by law abiding citizens (granted that if a ban/grab/turn 'em in happens, there will be a great many more defacto criminals) that would never consider doing such heinous act.
This country has far greater problems to deal with right now, than to tie up resources trying to figure out a solution to a problem that nobody can currently predict, anticipate, or counter with anything other than equal force on station and ready to respond without hesitation.
In all of the "Mass Shootings" that have taken place in the last 20 years, there were already a pile of laws, and checks in place to supposedly prevent it from occurring - yet it still happened. And if you dig deep enough into the lives of those people that committed these acts, it all boils down to parenting, and this sudden increase in "Special needs", "Challenged", "Attention Deficit" which all used to be treated by a smack with a ruler, or larger, to get their attention focused and try harder. Not prescriptions, love, positive reinforcement, or touchy feeley psychological counseling - which has clearly proven to be ineffective. Pain reinforced discipline is not child abuse, and has proven to be extremely effective for the last 10,000 years in behavior modification.
This is not a tool problem, it is not a legal problem, it is a moral problem that started at least 2 generations ago when the full on "Let the Govt raise my children for me because I am to lazy/irresponsible/stupid to do it, no more discipline, and rapid decline in quality education" happened. The fact that the new rally cry of "For the safety of the Children" is not helping at all (and I suspect is part of the problem). I am not about to willingly give up my rights, that for the last 238 years people have fought and died to protect those rights or freedoms because because a child may be injured or killed by someone who went off the rails.
Getting rid of the tools, writing more laws is not going to stop, or even slow the problem of mass shootings, if there really is enough to be considered a problem. Look at the nation, and the unnatural deaths as a whole if you give "Mass shootings" their own category - defined as 1 or more persons shooting more than one person that they have no association with, and for no other criminal intent other than just shooting. You'll find that number pales by comparison.
Lets not bring in the bible thumping into this. If religion to some entity works for you, great, but it is not the "lack of" in some people that is the source. You had better remember that this country was initially settled because of the whole "Freedom of Religion (or lack thereof)". If you look at the history of the world, more lives have been taken in the name of Religion than all other deaths not by natural causes combined, and it is still racking up huge numbers every single day - and this country is neither innocent or free of this crime.
Let the country mourn. At the same time remember that there are hundreds of other parents that are losing their sons and daughters every single day through other other tragedies that could have been prevented, never mind those sons and daughters that are dieing halfway across the globe protecting "American Interests - oil", which to me is a far greater tragedy. An absolutely frightening amount of money and lives, is consumed daily by a fight we picked long before Obama took office (oops, another fact people forgot) and is obligated to finish.
HackerF15E
12-23-12, 07:06
And many states have passed laws to prevent that stuff from happening again.
Federal law, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_Recovery_Personal_Protection_Act_of_2006
HackerF15E
12-23-12, 07:14
And if you dig deep enough into the lives of those people that committed these acts, it all boils down to parenting, and this sudden increase in "Special needs", "Challenged", "Attention Deficit" which all used to be treated by a smack with a ruler, or larger, to get their attention focused and try harder. Not prescriptions, love, positive reinforcement, or touchy feeley psychological counseling - which has clearly proven to be ineffective. Pain reinforced discipline is not child abuse, and has proven to be extremely effective for the last 10,000 years in behavior modification.
What a HUGELY inaccurate generalization about mental illness.
The Aurora shooter (with what turns out to be serious mental illness) would have been all right if his parents had simply laid down the law 20 years earlier? The CT shooter (with Asberger's) wouldn't have been a problem if his folks had spanked him 10 or 15 years prior?
YGBSM. These are not insolent children who were spared the rod by their parents.
I have a kid with Autism and I can tell you without any doubt that his social problems aren't a result of parenting technique. The fact that mental illness "used to be treated with a smack" is a tragedy, not something that anyone should look back on as the Golden Years.
I happen to agree strongly that there is a problem with current attitudes about parenting, and that many current-generation Americans have issues with behavior, attitudes, entitlement, and lack of skills to cope with societal failure and challenges, all of which have their roots in how they are raised by their parents and socialized by the public schooling system.
...but that is absolutely, positively a different issue than how to treat mental illness.
Some times a good spanking is in order. It is not the answer to mental health issues.
Doc Safari
12-23-12, 15:40
Then you have to remember there will be many who refuse to carry out those orders. If you simply think there are a bunch of people standing in line to take their place you are seriously mistaken. One thing I learned in my years in the military and 6 years in middle eastern shitholes is that not everyone has the stomach for violence.
Exactly how long ago did we fight the Civil War? Ask yourself why.
Very good points. It's also important to look at it from the other perspective, and this other perspective is why I do not think they are stupid enough to order a confiscation.
While we have yammered on in several threads about "would they or wouldn't they" go door-to-door to confiscate guns, no one has taken up the mantle to discuss whether or not those persons about to face confiscation might decide to go on the offensive.
I'm not talking about anyone here of course. :)
While we discuss things intelligently and seek solutions within the legal system, I guarantee you there are people sitting at home right now loading their magazines and deciding who they might target first in this "second civil war."
Just as there are people who do not have the stomach for violence, there are people who see losing their rights to merely possess what they've bought and paid for with hard-earned money as all the invitation they need.
Wasn't a British order to confiscate guns what precipitated the events at a certain bridge sometime in the 1770's?
You just hit the X-ring. One of the first things Hitler did when he took power was to give every German house hold a small transistor radio that looped nothing but state media propaganda. He lied and told his people those damn Poles attacked a German village and murdered their children. And we all know what this snowballed into.
As for the lady that made the statement, how many anti-gun liberals are pro-abortion? The hypocrisy is ironical. With that said this is NOT an abortion thread so anyone who may take offense to my comment take it to another thread as this is a lightning rod topic that usually results in a thread lock.
Moose, a minor correction..Transistor radios did'nt come around until after WWII.
Confiscation is not going to happen this time. It is counterproductive to discuss it.
The right does not have enough power to stop some form of legislation.
New laws are coming and it will not include armed teachers.
Some rational level headed people need to be in discussion with the left and ready to compromise on the gun show loophole, NFA status, multiple reporting of long gun sales, etc or we are going to lose it all under a permanent AWB should this get this far.
HackerF15E
12-23-12, 19:02
Some rational level headed people need to be in discussion with the left and ready to compromise on the gun show loophole, NFA status, multiple reporting of long gun sales, etc or we are going to lose it all under a permanent AWB should this get this far.
While I agree there is a risk of "losing it all", there is also a chance that there will be no change.
Personally, I think that the NRA's "big push" should be for an overhaul of the NICS system to make it more robust and to figure out how to make mental health records part of it.
GeorgiaBoy
12-23-12, 19:06
Confiscation is not going to happen this time. It is counterproductive to discuss it.
The right does not have enough power to stop some form of legislation.
New laws are coming and it will not include armed teachers.
Some rational level headed people need to be in discussion with the left and ready to compromise on the gun show loophole, NFA status, multiple reporting of long gun sales, etc or we are going to lose it all under a permanent AWB should this get this far.
Very well said.
DreadPirateMoyer
12-23-12, 19:10
The right does not have enough power to stop some form of legislation.
Some rational level headed people need to be in discussion with the left and ready to compromise...
You're kidding, right? "The right" has control of half of Congress, a population almost evenly divided on gun control, and couldn't even muster up enough collective votes to let tax cuts expire on 2% of the population. That's a lot fewer people than gun owners. Gun owners are also often single-issue voters with much longer memories than anti-gun voters, who usually vote with gun control as only one of many criteria that they look at.
There's very good chance this can be won as things sit right now. You speaking like there isn't only lowers our chances by convincing people that the fight isn't worth fighting. Shame on you.
xrayoneone
12-23-12, 19:13
The right does not have enough power to stop some form of legislation.
How so?
You're kidding, right? "The right" has control of half of Congress, a population almost evenly divided on gun control, and couldn't even muster up enough collective votes to let tax cuts expire on 2% of the population. That's a lot fewer people than gun owners. Gun owners are also often single-issue voters with much longer memories than anti-gun voters, who usually vote with gun control as only one of many criteria that they look at.
There's very good chance this can be won as things sit right now. You speaking like there isn't only lowers our chances by convincing people that the fight isn't worth fighting. Shame on you.
Given the events of the past 4 years I can't understand how you think this way.
The republicans will comprise on a AWB in exchange for less welfare spending. You just watch.
The ****ing democrats will offer the right mix of tax cuts, welfare cuts, defense spending to the republicans in exchange for an AWB and it will be the law of the land.
Keep having your head in the sand.
xrayoneone
12-23-12, 19:21
Given the events of the past 4 years I can't understand how you think this way.
The republicans will comprise on a AWB in exchange for less welfare spending. You just watch.
The ****ing democrats will offer the right mix of tax cuts, welfare cuts, defense spending to the republicans in exchange for an AWB and it will be the law of the land.
Keep having your head in the sand.
What you say here is quite different than before. Will the Republicans pull some bullshit? Maybe. That is different from saying they cannot prevent it. After all a law has to pass both houses then be something POTUS would sign.
wetidlerjr
12-23-12, 19:22
..The republicans will comprise on a AWB in exchange for less welfare spending. You just watch. The ****ing democrats will offer the right mix of tax cuts, welfare cuts, defense spending to the republicans in exchange for an AWB and it will be the law of the land.
Keep having your head in the sand.
It is done deal then. Nothing to see here. Move on, move on!
Doc Safari
12-23-12, 20:21
Despite all that is being talked about, my sincere hope is that the more time passes the more passions subside and people begin to see that passing a bunch of new laws isn't going to do diddly shit and people just accept the fact that we live in a violent world where a little more security might do some good without passing a bunch of useless gun laws. Asa Hutchinson was on George Steponallofus' show this morning, and he emphasized that an assault weapons ban was in place for 10 years and basically was meaningless. That's what we need to emphasize: "been there, done that."
montanadave
12-23-12, 20:34
The Republican caucus in the House is in such disarray I don't think they could order out for lunch, much less negotiate an AWB swap for entitlement cuts.
That said, I don't see them getting rickrolled with another AWB and staring at primary challenges in every solid Republican district come 2014.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.