View Full Version : Tennessee gets it!!
Gunfighter.45
12-19-12, 17:51
http://now.msn.com/tennessee-legislature-considers-arming-teachers-to-prevent-school-shootings
WOW!! At least one state get's it. I've been saying this for years,ever since Columbine. Now we just need 49 more to get on board.
Guns-up.50
12-19-12, 17:54
I like this idea
but the leftest will never bite on it.
Magic_Salad0892
12-19-12, 17:54
Bitchin'.
This isn't a well thought out idea...moreover it's a knee jerk reaction to the recent events imho.
1.) Expecting teachers to effectively engage an armed threat in incredibly dynamic environments with copious amounts of friendlies around seems far fetched to me.
2.) Lots of teachers will refuse to carry a firearm in their classes, whether it be for political reasons, or quite simply because they are scared to.
Let's keep teachers teaching...and let's leave the security aspects to true security professionals.
Belmont31R
12-19-12, 18:18
This isn't a well thought out idea...moreover it's a knee jerk reaction to the recent events imho.
1.) Expecting teachers to effectively engage an armed threat in incredibly dynamic environments with copious amounts of friendlies around seems far fetched to me.
2.) Lots of teachers will refuse to carry a firearm in their classes, whether it be for political reasons, or quite simply because they are scared to.
Let's keep teachers teaching...and let's leave the security aspects to true security professionals.
Shouldn't be mandatory but set some basic requirements, and tell the police to stop writing traffic tickets for a few days to setup a class for teachers and have them get a CCW.
Teachers that don't want to don't have to do, and expand it out to other school staff. My kids school has people who are 'helpers' and just float around all day when they are needed. I know one who would carry at the school, and since they aren't pegged to being in one class all day are in a good position to respond to stuff.
ridgerunner70
12-19-12, 18:18
Concealed gun bill for teachers filed in Mo.
Updated: Dec 19, 2012 3:49 PM CST
More than two dozen Missouri lawmakers are backing legislation that would allow teachers and administrators with concealed gun permits to carry weapons in schools . We have more than 2 dozen lawmakers backing this. I can't figure out how to post the link. The thing is over half of the teachers where I went and my kids go to school now already have there CCW.
Gunfighter.45
12-19-12, 18:36
This isn't a well thought out idea...moreover it's a knee jerk reaction to the recent events imho.
1.) Expecting teachers to effectively engage an armed threat in incredibly dynamic environments with copious amounts of friendlies around seems far fetched to me.
2.) Lots of teachers will refuse to carry a firearm in their classes, whether it be for political reasons, or quite simply because they are scared to.
Let's keep teachers teaching...and let's leave the security aspects to true security professionals.
You would have been 120% right, back in the 50's. Now a days I'm not so sure. The big problem is there is NO securtiy in schools,not the type that's needed or wants to be had. Yea I know sometimes they have an LEO sitting in his cruiser for an hour or two,but it's NOT enough. Also so there's no confusion, I'm not saying all teachers need to be armed but at least some adiministrative staff would be okay with me.
Magic_Salad0892
12-19-12, 18:39
This isn't a well thought out idea...moreover it's a knee jerk reaction to the recent events imho.
1.) Expecting teachers to effectively engage an armed threat in incredibly dynamic environments with copious amounts of friendlies around seems far fetched to me.
2.) Lots of teachers will refuse to carry a firearm in their classes, whether it be for political reasons, or quite simply because they are scared to.
Let's keep teachers teaching...and let's leave the security aspects to true security professionals.
I'm 60% with you, but I see this as a good approach. If I was a teacher, I would see it as my responsibility to safeguard my pupils.
ForTehNguyen
12-19-12, 18:45
This isn't a well thought out idea...moreover it's a knee jerk reaction to the recent events imho.
1.) Expecting teachers to effectively engage an armed threat in incredibly dynamic environments with copious amounts of friendlies around seems far fetched to me.
2.) Lots of teachers will refuse to carry a firearm in their classes, whether it be for political reasons, or quite simply because they are scared to.
Let's keep teachers teaching...and let's leave the security aspects to true security professionals.
no ones saying give every teacher a gun, just let the ones who hold CHLs carry. Anyways how the heck is this any different than carrying elsewhere, the school isnt some magic zone where the rules dont apply.
At this point one to two trained, discrete CCW teachers per school might be sensible and is certainly warranted. But to accept this as a future standard is simplistic and demeaning to us all.
It's both unfortunate and somewhat confusing to see that many would so earnestly accept lesser options when we can stand against many of the real societal threats as a group.
Belmont31R
12-19-12, 18:59
At this point one to two trained, discrete CCW teachers per school might be sensible and is certainly warranted. But to accept this as a future standard is simplistic and demeaning to us all.
It's both unfortunate and somewhat confusing to see that many would so earnestly accept lesser options when we can stand against many of the real societal threats as a group.
I view it as an option for teachers/staff who want to, and have a desire to do so.
I view it along the lines of..'if kids used to be able to take a gun with them to hunt after shool' whats wrong with a principle having an AR or shotgun or pistol in their office? Or 1 or 2 teachers in a school having something in their desk?
Certainly not an answer to this issue, in its entirety, but it would at least give a school somewhat of a fighting chance against these types of incidents. Certainly far better than just tredging up another AWB which had no effect on crime, and we've been dealing the liberal interpretation of things for far too long as it is. CT already has an AWB.
And we need to be pushing an opposing view as far as we can. Our side is so dysfunctional its no wonder we are getting run over on these issues. The democrat side is full of indians and the right side is full of chiefs who can't agree on anything.
The day that this happened, I posted this on my FB wall and got a lot of agreeing parents that feel at arming the school, be it with instructors or LEO/Mall Blart is something that we absolutely should do.
I'm an advocate allowing teachers that desire it, to go through formal training for the allowance to conceal carry in the schools. I've heard it suggested that teachers should not, but that an armed security guard would be better.
I say no. Teachers are educated. We entrust our children to them. If an unknown number of instructors were armed and trained, a school would no longer be a gun free target for nut jobs. No shooter goes to a known nest of armed combatants to commit these acts. Instead they look for easy targets.
When my child is with me, they are protected by me, and my firearm if need be. While at home, out to see a movie, at a restaurant, at Wal-Mart. My child and my wife are worthy of this personal level of protection outside of the school, are they not also worthy of it while in school?
Placing a sign or sticker on the school for does nothing to enhance the security if your children. Having an equally armed protector does in fact give your loved one a fighting chance.
I suspect that in any school, there are a number of instructors that if given the option, would take the training and be willing to take on the burden of being his brothers keeper.
A school should not be a target. Our children should not be easy targets for evil. If you want to care for my child, finish the job and take the responsibility and care for them as their own patent would. With your life if need be, and by any means necessary.
CaptainDooley
12-19-12, 22:23
Since my daughter started kindergarten this year, I have felt it incredibly absurd every time I've gone to school and had to disarm. Look, here's a building with a few hundred small children and a bunch of adults with no way to protect themselves against people walking in any of the unlocked doors on this campus. Hell, half the time when I go in the "check in computer" for visitors is down and I just get waved on through the office - no ID check or nothing.
I wouldn't mandate that teachers carry, I would much rather see the state/federal laws creating gun free zones go away. The solution is less regulation, not more regulation to fix previous bad legislation.
no ones saying give every teacher a gun, just let the ones who hold CHLs carry. Anyways how the heck is this any different than carrying elsewhere, the school isnt some magic zone where the rules dont apply.
The high concentration of children makes the school a different environment than your typical home, vehicle, or ATM self-defense encounter. It does require a higher level of training - difficult, but not impossible. Look at the training that Air Marshals go through due to the high concentration of friendly targets.
There is also the fear that some teacher would do something really dumb like leave a weapon unsecured in their desk or on the back of a toilet after taking a deuce (remember Romney's USSS detail that left a weapon in an airplane bathroom). Then, there was the brilliant DEA agent who put one through his leg in front of a classroom full of kids during show-and-tell. Public mistakes like these by "trained" professionals make school counsels jumpy when it comes to arming teachers.
I have had the opportunity to speak with a few teachers, assistant principals and principals from a few elementary, middle and high schools in my area (South Florida). All of them are in favor of receiving whatever proper training necessary that would allow them to carry a firearm. I thought they would actually say the opposite. I was very surprised and would support it if it would fly.
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why is it that people agree with CCW at large but go shy when it's mentioned in conjunction with schools? are teachers some type of subclass of human that can't be trusted with a gun when everyone else can? do they deserve to have their right of self-defense stripped because they work with children?
I have always thought this type of legislation is a good idea. it's not necessary that every teacher be armed but just the idea that some of them "might" be armed will give most of these attackers pause.
what we have seen are not Beslan type assaults. these are mentally ill individuals with an agenda. with the majority of these types of attacks occurring in gun-free zones we can see the mindset of the attackers. the are cowards. they do not want resistance and in most cases that I have seen, once they are resisted, they take their own lives.
I don't think the solution is compulsory arming of every teacher but the ones who want it and bear a CCW license and are willing to go through training and adhere to safety restrictions should be allowed to carry, for their own personal safety, if nothing else...
I am a teacher. I am also a CCWer that meets our states "enhanced" requirements. (Theoretically I am legally allowed to carry on school grounds; it is my terms of employment that prevents it.) I also practice religiously and seek professional training when I can afford it.
There are a ton of considerations with school security. My school would need an infantry platoon to prevent a serious armed shooter from coming in, some are much better laid out. Do you have enough teachers willing to go through some serious training and qualifications? Who is going to provide the training? I have seen some locals shoot, and compared to what I do it's a joke. (I admit that I am an exception to the norm.) Pinkerton style mall cops would be far worse that a few dedicated armed teachers.
There is a lot to consider here, and every school has different considerations, but I'm glad this is on the table.
My personal largest concern would be better concealment. It's easy to go about your normal business and keep a gun hidden. But if 30 kids are going to be staring at you all day long, it's a good bit more difficult.
I am a teacher. I am also a CCWer that meets our states "enhanced" requirements. (Theoretically I am legally allowed to carry on school grounds; it is my terms of employment that prevents it.) I also practice religiously and seek professional training when I can afford it.
There are a ton of considerations with school security. My school would need an infantry platoon to prevent a serious armed shooter from coming in, some are much better laid out. Do you have enough teachers willing to go through some serious training and qualifications? Who is going to provide the training? I have seen some locals shoot, and compared to what I do it's a joke. (I admit that I am an exception to the norm.) Pinkerton style mall cops would be far worse that a few dedicated armed teachers.
There is a lot to consider here, and every school has different considerations, but I'm glad this is on the table.
My personal largest concern would be better concealment. It's easy to go about your normal business and keep a gun hidden. But if 30 kids are going to be staring at you all day long, it's a good bit more difficult.
I understand. but the idea that a teacher(s) is armed might be enough to deter some of the nut cases we are seeing.
also, I thought about this and I would be comfortable with a gun kept in a secured locker, desk, or handgun vault. it doesn't necessarily need to be carried all the time. while this would not be ideal, it would certainly be better than nothing.
and sure, I see more objections to safety but there are always solutions when people are motivated to find them rather than point them out...
Texas Town Allows Teachers to Carry Guns
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/20/texas-town-allows-teachers-carry-concealed-guns/?page=2
Oklahoma has a proposal...
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-legislator-says-teachers-need-option-to-carry-guns-at-school/article/3738396
McCullough pledged to introduce legislation in the upcoming session to allow principals and teachers who go through training to be able to carry firearms on school property.
http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2012/12/16/oath-keepers-to-provide-teachers-with-free-firearms-and-self-defense-training/
I understand. but the idea that a teacher(s) is armed might be enough to deter some of the nut cases we are seeing.
also, I thought about this and I would be comfortable with a gun kept in a secured locker, desk, or handgun vault. it doesn't necessarily need to be carried all the time. while this would not be ideal, it would certainly be better than nothing.
and sure, I see more objections to safety but there are always solutions when people are motivated to find them rather than point them out...
I agree that it would have some value. I wish that I could be part of a serious public conversation n this topic. I wish I could be on the panel that decides what the standards are.
Someone needs to ask; "Do we have an experienced classroom teacher that knows anything about defensive shooting and CCW?"
Arming teachers is not the answer. (At least not the whole answer)
Doing away with gun free zones and allowing concealed carry permit holders to carry wherever they go is the answer.
Then if teachers want to carry guns, they can with a regular concealed carry permit. Same with their spouses, or the parents, or the other faculty, or the coaches, or any other law abiding responsible citizen.
Then when the next school shooting breaks out, whoever's around it has a better chance to survive, fight back, and end it early.
Reagans Rascals
12-20-12, 18:06
why can't they simply institute an electromagnetic lock on all classroom/building doors/ entrances...
if there is a threat present... the school immediately goes on lock down... with all doors locked... and the shooter contained...
yeah it sucks to be stuck in the same room as the shooter... but this would at least compartmentalize and constrict the cancer from spreading any further...
Reagans Rascals
12-20-12, 18:08
Arming teachers is not the answer. (At least not the whole answer)
Doing away with gun free zones and allowing concealed carry permit holders to carry wherever they go is the answer.
Then if teachers want to carry guns, they can with a regular concealed carry permit. Same with their spouses, or the parents, or the other faculty, or the coaches, or any other law abiding responsible citizen.
Then when the next school shooting breaks out, whoever's around it has a better chance to survive, fight back, and end it early.
I think if they allow teachers to carry if they have a concealed carry permit... they should be required to meet or exceed present day training standards from organisations such as the U.S. Air Marshals...
A classroom full of small children is even more of a dynamic environment than an aircraft in some respects... and they should be trained to FIGHT in that environment... fight being the keyword... not just be able to pull a trigger... but actually be able to fight with a handgun...
I don't think I would want some untrained teacher just spraying for dear life simply because she feels confident because her husband bought her a Ruger LCP to carry in her purse...
Magic_Salad0892
12-20-12, 18:49
why can't they simply institute an electromagnetic lock on all classroom/building doors/ entrances...
if there is a threat present... the school immediately goes on lock down... with all doors locked... and the shooter contained...
yeah it sucks to be stuck in the same room as the shooter... but this would at least compartmentalize and constrict the cancer from spreading any further...
This is a great idea, but it'd cost a shitload of money to do it to every school.
This is a great idea, but it'd cost a shitload of money to do it to every school.
It also wouldn't work at many schools, as there is almost always some class moving around in the halls... better to have teachers trained to heard the kids into classrooms and lock the doors as quickly as possible.
I think if they allow teachers to carry if they have a concealed carry permit... they should be required to meet or exceed present day training standards from organisations such as the U.S. Air Marshals...
A classroom full of small children is even more of a dynamic environment than an aircraft in some respects... and they should be trained to FIGHT in that environment... fight being the keyword... not just be able to pull a trigger... but actually be able to fight with a handgun...
I don't think I would want some untrained teacher just spraying for dear life simply because she feels confident because her husband bought her a Ruger LCP to carry in her purse...
That is where I stand on this.
why can't they simply institute an electromagnetic lock on all classroom/building doors/ entrances...
if there is a threat present... the school immediately goes on lock down... with all doors locked... and the shooter contained...
yeah it sucks to be stuck in the same room as the shooter... but this would at least compartmentalize and constrict the cancer from spreading any further...
The high school i went to didnt have doors on many of the classrooms as it was an open floor plan. Also think if the shooter started a fire, you'd not want the locks engaged as the schools burns down.
Not everyone who has a concealed carry permit is going to be a crack shot or be able to perform under pressure, and none should be expected to rush into the fray. The teacher community is not and never will be law enforcement. Theres just too many liberal pussy artsy fartsy teachers who could never pull a trigger on someone.
I was just offering a reasonably easy solution where those who've gone through the trouble of getting a permit and some basic training on how to use a handgun effectively would then have a fighting chance. Those who would choose to take on the responsibilty of conealed carry would be armed, and the rest would make the decision that they'll rely on someone else to protect them (as they currently do) but hopefully the protector would be across the hall instead of across town.
why can't they simply institute an electromagnetic lock on all classroom/building doors/ entrances...
Fire code.
I think if they allow teachers to carry if they have a concealed carry permit... they should be required to meet or exceed present day training standards from organisations such as the U.S. Air Marshals...
And you think that the few SRO's out there have this kind of training. I'm 99.973% certain they are nothing more than regular beat cops who graduate the same academy. SWAT guys generally aren't SRO's around here. How about the responding officers. Do they need Air Marshal qualification before they can enter the schools armed?
I believe that teachers, LEO or CHL holders who carry in and around schools should be better trained. I do not, however, believe in a double standard that forbids a teacher the right to self defense simply cause they don't meet a very high standard while a LEO who hasnt met that standard can just walk in. Either we have an objective standard or we do not.
As for the locking doors and such. They had a locking door in CT. The guy broke through it. Schools aren't static locations like prisons. The kids move from location to locations through out the day, even elementary kids. Auto lock the doors and you trap a good number of kids exposed in fatal funnels called hallways with absolutely NO cover or concealment. You also increase the risk of death during a fire which is still far more likely than an active shooter. Even if you had locks 90% of the schools are old buildings with crappy doors. I bet I could walk through most of them in my AO without serious effort.
IMO school security needs to be undertaken by professional people instead of political **** ups who ignore most tenets of physicals security.
We have absolutely no way to detect an intruder in our schools till they have penetrated the school and are among the little people we are trying to protect. Our schools have adults streaming through all day long. No real reason for them to be there, yet we let them file in and out. Look at all other kinds of secure facilities that we keep our valuables in. They all have an outer perimeter that allows people to detect intruders BEFORE they get to the goodies. This gives them time to assess the threat and respond appropriately. My elementary school in Romania had a sealed perimeter. Parents dropped the kids off outside the wire. Had to pick your child up early, they were brought to you by a staff member. Any adult trying to enter the perimeter.... Let's just say they were in for a bad day.
We do nothing to deter the idiots from trying to get into the schools. They know there is no security. They know there is nothing we can do to stop them.
We can't delay them, cause they are already in.
We also no way to immediately react to a threat. Aside for a principal or teacher taking a bullet there is nothing they can do, but hide, hope and pray.
Basically almost all tenets of physical security are ignored. We ignorantly stack the odds against the house, cause the people in charge have their heads up their asses and are more interested in feeling safe than being safe.
Sorry for the rant.
Well, being from TN I'm somewhat satisfied this is being considered. A local range/shop has offered to give teachers free training if this goes through. On the surface I really hope this happens, however the devil is in the details. I've not read every post but I believe I get the jist of it.
In no way at all do I want teachers to be armed with simply a CCW permit and it's simplistic training. I was very disapointed with the lax requirements when I got my CCW 20 years ago. Nor do I feel that hardly any LEO training is sufficent for this task. The bar should be set high for this, very high.
There will be different ways to go about this, but putting trained, armed protectors in the schools is a good first step.
Reading on the Buckeye Firearms Assocation's website it now seems that Ohio also gets it..AG Mike Dewine, has called for arming of at least one staffer in schools..Also the Buckeye Firearms Assocation has made an offer of free 3-day firearms training to any teacher who wants it.. At Tactical Defense Institute,W. Union OH, It will cost them nothing, everything lodging ammo classes etc, all paid for.. They have 24 slots open...
more interested in feeling safe than being safe.
This is exactly right.
In no way at all do I want teachers to be armed with simply a CCW permit and it's simplistic training.
So to carry in public it's okay to have the minimalist training required for a CCW, but not to carry in a school? Why? Is the risk higher in a school?
If you're in public, or a department store, or a park, should a simple minded CCW holder not be allowed to carry near where the kids might be walking, shopping or playing?
If the state has deemed someone competent enough to carry a gun in public around everyone (including kids), why then shouldn't they be allowed to carry if at a school?
We do not need mandatory armed guards or whatever in schools. Rather, teachers and other staff at the schools should legally be allowed to exercise their 2A right by means of concealed carry. You do not need to force guns into the schools; just remove the stupid "gun free zone" bullshit. The last thing we need is a police state, which unfortunately is what we are going to get out of this latest shooting, along with gun control/AWB. TPTB get the best of both worlds.
We do not need mandatory armed guards or whatever in schools. Rather, teachers and other staff at the schools should legally be allowed to exercise their 2A right by means of concealed carry. You do not need to force guns into the schools; just remove the stupid "gun free zone" bullshit. The last thing we need is a police state, which unfortunately is what we are going to get out of this latest shooting, along with gun control/AWB. TPTB get the best of both worlds.
I have rolled this idea around in my head a good bit... remember we are talking about MY rights, as I am an actual classroom teacher. I would like to see myself fully able to exercise my rights, but then I would also be happy to go through some extra training for it. I would certainly like to see anyone around myself or my kids receive more training (like, not demand.)
1st) In the end, it might be a question of liability. Protecting their children is part of a teachers job, if we let them carry we have said it is part of their job to defend the kids with a gun. Training would show effort, in court, to mitigate the perceived risk of "turning the school into the OK corral." (That is the way it would be viewed by many in the public.)
2nd) Establishing the training would be necessary to make the case with many people.
3rd) The precedent has been set with airline plots.
4th) Part of the training would be incorporating yourself in to the local PDs plan. Part of their drills for such a situation etc. That alone would increase the value of such a program 100 fold.
So to carry in public it's okay to have the minimalist training required for a CCW, but not to carry in a school? Why? Is the risk higher in a school?
I would say that a school environment offers a greater risk of an innocent catching a stray round. Someone mentioned earlier training similar to the Air Marshals should be implemented, I agree. However if it comes down to a simple decision to allow teachers to carry or not to carry with only CCW training then I would say yes, let them. Again I would prefer a more intense training requirement.
If you're in public, or a department store, or a park, should a simple minded CCW holder not be allowed to carry near where the kids might be walking, shopping or playing?
Yes, they shoul be allowed to carry. I know I have, for many years now.
If the state has deemed someone competent enough to carry a gun in public around everyone (including kids), why then shouldn't they be allowed to carry if at a school?
Like I said earlier, CCW training is nearly a joke. I would like to see higher demanding training. I got my CCW training as a member of a local gun club, the price was a 1/4 of any other offered training and there were large classes being instructed. We did not rotate through the firing line in singles. We had 25+ people on the line at one time. The overall accuracy being demonstrated was simply appalling. I was at a peak in my own personal performance at the time and went through the course with a G19. As the instuctor walked the line reveiwing targets he stopped when he came to mine and walked the 15 yards to talk to me and see what I was firing. He could not believe it was a simple, stock G19, they acted as if I was some sort of zen master. While it was both sort of embarassing and satisfying at the same time I felt I had not performed any higher than expected, higher than required yes, but not higher than I personally epected.
I hope this gives an insight into my mindset on this matter. Like the Air Marshals I feel armed protection in a school environment should demand higher standards. I also feel that normal CCW training should also have higher standards than are now required. I take loosing live rounds in a public arena very seriously. Obviously the state is most likely not going to raise the CCW requirments, in which case I will default to saying yes, let them carry.
There have been many ideas brought forth on this matter here. Another idea that hit me a few days ago I would like to put out there for dicussion is this. A small secured arms locker within a secured office area where a few trained individuals can gain access if an active shooter hits the school. This would possibly reduce the amount of armed individuals in the school, remove them the school body by having them in a secured location and possibly allow for increased training. Thoughts?
I recently sent a memorandum up my chain of command in reference to the a similar idea I had. I suggested the SO request volunteers from school administration ( staff in general) to be given a special deputy status. This would allow them to ccw, and they would atleast train with and be held to NC states Leo stantads and have to qualify to those standards yearly. Plus I wanted each participant be issued a vest and arm band for id purposes during a critical incident. I also wanted to make clear to them that they were not to engage in Leo type actives and that their roll would be strictly for active shooters. I see this as the best way to have armed personnel on school grounds. It also would make it affordable for the county as hiring the extra SROs may cost millions. Plus it would circumvent the state needing to be involved.
When carrying a gun as a civilian, a school is no different than a mall, or movie theater, or playground or park, or grocery store, doctor's office, a church, library or an open street. There's always going to be bystanders, it's likely there will be some children present or nearby in any of those places, and some places will have more than others. If you're in any of those places and you have to draw your gun to save your life or the life of another, society will always run the risk of bystanders being present (children or otherwise).
Personally I think it would be great for people who carry daily to also seek out more professional and advanced training, but requiring a high level of training to be able to carry a gun? No, I can't support that. I can't support anything beyond a state certification to make sure that the person isn't a hazard to themselves or others while carrying in public because as much as someone might suck at shooting - they still have the right to defend themselves no matter where they are. Even in a school.
When carrying a gun as a civilian, a school is no different than a mall, or movie theater, or playground or park, or grocery store, doctor's office, a church, library or an open street. There's always going to be bystanders, it's likely there will be some children present or nearby in any of those places, and some places will have more than others. If you're in any of those places and you have to draw your gun to save your life or the life of another, society will always run the risk of bystanders being present (children or otherwise).
Personally I think it would be great for people who carry daily to also seek out more professional and advanced training, but requiring a high level of training to be able to carry a gun? No, I can't support that. I can't support anything beyond a state certification to make sure that the person isn't a hazard to themselves or others while carrying in public because as much as someone might suck at shooting - they still have the right to defend themselves no matter where they are. Even in a school.
I see your point and understand it. I even agree with it in principle. However there are other points to consider. First, I think most people will agree that our children are the definition of innocence. Look how intense the media coverage was after this recent shooting. Good or bad, right or wrong, anything that involves childern, especially a high number of children, is going to be scrutinized unlike any other situation. I will also say that I feel, as a CCW holder, that I should have the right to carry into a school the same as any other location. However I do not think we will ever see this happen. Maybe a graduated CCW? Increased training equals an increased number areas you can carry? Of course this will not happen either.
Another consideration, we, as CCW holders, will likely never be allowed to carry in a court house either, nor a shcool. Sure a LEO can, but they have increased requirments over CCW as well. Why would we not increase the requirments on someone who will be tasked with protecting our childern at school as well?
These, along with other points we have yet to discuss, are going to be sticky points to deal with for sure. And while we may not be able to agree on the details, it will not be up to you or I. Sadly, when or if this issue hits our state legislatures you can be sure cost will be a deciding factor as well.
I recently sent a memorandum up my chain of command in reference to the a similar idea I had. I suggested the SO request volunteers from school administration ( staff in general) to be given a special deputy status. This would allow them to ccw, and they would atleast train with and be held to NC states Leo stantads and have to qualify to those standards yearly. Plus I wanted each participant be issued a vest and arm band for id purposes during a critical incident. I also wanted to make clear to them that they were not to engage in Leo type actives and that their roll would be strictly for active shooters. I see this as the best way to have armed personnel on school grounds. It also would make it affordable for the county as hiring the extra SROs may cost millions. Plus it would circumvent the state needing to be involved.
That is a great and logical idea
I see your point and understand it. I even agree with it in principle. However there are other points to consider. First, I think most people will agree that our children are the definition of innocence. Look how intense the media coverage was after this recent shooting. Good or bad, right or wrong, anything that involves childern, especially a high number of children, is going to be scrutinized unlike any other situation. I will also say that I feel, as a CCW holder, that I should have the right to carry into a school the same as any other location. However I do not think we will ever see this happen. Maybe a graduated CCW? Increased training equals an increased number areas you can carry? Of course this will not happen either.
Another consideration, we, as CCW holders, will likely never be allowed to carry in a court house either, nor a shcool. Sure a LEO can, but they have increased requirments over CCW as well. Why would we not increase the requirments on someone who will be tasked with protecting our childern at school as well?
These, along with other points we have yet to discuss, are going to be sticky points to deal with for sure. And while we may not be able to agree on the details, it will not be up to you or I. Sadly, when or if this issue hits our state legislatures you can be sure cost will be a deciding factor as well.
I see your points too. Children are important and most people aren't going to be able to easily get on board with "more guns is the answer" no matter who's holding the gun. Having a highly trained, certified, sworn law enforcement officer or some version thereof is going to make people "feel safe" and that is what most people are going to value over actually "being safe".
On a side note though,
Carry in a courthouse too? Great idea. If removing all gun free zones, courthouses should be included along with federal buildings and federal property. As a permit holder, people should be trusted to carry a gun everywhere, or, they should not be trusted to carry a gun.
sinlessorrow
12-27-12, 15:09
This isn't a well thought out idea...moreover it's a knee jerk reaction to the recent events imho.
1.) Expecting teachers to effectively engage an armed threat in incredibly dynamic environments with copious amounts of friendlies around seems far fetched to me.
2.) Lots of teachers will refuse to carry a firearm in their classes, whether it be for political reasons, or quite simply because they are scared to.
Let's keep teachers teaching...and let's leave the security aspects to true security professionals.
Texas says hi. We have had schools with armed teachers for a while now, since 2008 I believe. My local school has had police in them for the last 15 years and have allowed teachers to carry for the last year.
Nothing bad has happened yet.
Heartland Hawk
12-27-12, 16:28
[QUOTE=Moltke;1483188
On a side note though,
Carry in a courthouse too? Great idea. If removing all gun free zones, courthouses should be included along with federal buildings and federal property. As a permit holder, people should be trusted to carry a gun everywhere, or, they should not be trusted to carry a gun.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this. It's like a social double standard. Either we are trusted, or we are not. Not "Well, we trust you, but only sometimes."
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