Smith & Wesson SD9VE...

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

The intention of this thread is to provide an accurate assessment and honest account of the guns performance, and provide my likes and dislikes of it. I've read many threads on many forums about these guns, but I got the feeling from some of them that the person wouldn't know a good gun if they got pistol whipped by one, and some professed their unending love of the gun the moment they took it out of the box. I hope to provide a more accurate, detailed depiction of how this thing turns out.

For starters, I did not need this gun. I already had a daily carry gun that had proven to be reliable, accurate, and dependable. This gun was chosen based upon it's own merits. It was not purchased because of the $340 price tag, in fact, the price kept me from buying one for a while. Can a sub $400 gun be deemed worthy of daily carry? I know many here will not be interested in this gun, but some of you guys might be curious about it so I will share my findings. I have high hopes for this gun, but will give an honest, no bs account of it's performance.

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h420/SBR2340/017_zps1d243a94.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h420/SBR2340/022_zps08290836.jpg

A little about me. I don't have the experience of most of you, I'm not prior military or LE. I consider myself to be a lifetime newb, a student of the gun if you will. I'm just a regular guy that knows his limitations. I've owned Glocks and SIGs, and liked each for different reasons. My first handgun was a dead nuts reliable early gen 3 Glock 19 that I never should have sold. The one thing I never liked was the grip angle. I learned to shoot it, but the grip angle never felt normal to me. I also didn't like the fact that after 100 rounds or so, my right hand would be requiring a bandage from slide bite, a problem caused by the combination of my meaty hands and the really low bore axis of the Glock.

About the time I got ready to buy another Glock 19, the gen 4 issues started popping up as well as the BTF issues with both new production gen 3's and 4's. Ever since, I have been looking for what I consider to be the perfect carry gun for me; a Glock 19 sized weapon with a more suitable grip angle for me and a slightly higher bore axis, just enough for my fat mitts to not get chewed up after a few mags down range.

I think I've found such a gun. I've handled the SD's several times over the years they've been out, and I kept telling myself that no gun with that price tag could be good enough to fill the defensive role. We all know about the woes of the Sigma, which has plagued S&W off and on since coming to market in one way or another. Every time I picked up a SD and held it, it felt right. I decided to pick one up and decide for myself if this is a great gun for the money or another turd from S&W.

I've been dry firing the gun quite a bit this week, and can tell you that the reports of the trigger are pretty accurate. It is gritty, but no worse than every single M&P that I've got the chance to dry fire. The sights, yes the rear sight is polymer, but at least the front sight is steel. After a good thorough cleaning and lube, and blacking out the two white dots on the plastic rear sight, off to my favorite gravel pit to run some rounds through it.

I had 200 rounds of WWB with me, and only had one hiccup so to speak. The first mag through the gun, the slide locked back with one round still in the magazine. I could not get it to duplicate that through the rest of the shooting session. I'm not sure if it was one of the two mags that came with the gun or the one I purchased separately. It may have been directly related to the guy behind the gun. I experienced no FTF's, FTE's or other malfunctions or stoppages. The gun grouped very nicely for me, albeit a little low left from me punching the trigger which is a problem I have a hard time overcoming. I did mostly slow fire, with a few double and triple taps thrown in for good measure. I will take some pics of the targets when I get a chance to show the group size. The gun is very soft recoiling, follow up shots are very fast. S&W knows how to make their semi auto's shoot softly compared to other manufacturers. The trigger is too heavy for my liking, so the Apex spring kit will be ordered very soon.

Over the next couple weeks, I will be putting another 700 rounds or so through the gun and will update this thread with round count and any issues that come up.

[bigghoss]

Interesting. Now if only they would make it in .45...

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

One thing I forgot to mention in the opening post. The mags are 16 round capacity. However, this gun cannot be loaded 16+1. There is no way to seat the magazine fully without possibly dimpling the top round in the magazine. I don't know if all of them are this way, but I suspect they are. They should have just made the follower fatter and made them a true 15 round capacity. It's not a big deal, but worth mentioning. 15+1 is still a good capacity.

[A62Rambler]

I don't know if all of them are this way, but I suspect they are. They should have just made the follower fatter and made them a true 15 round capacity. It's not a big deal, but worth mentioning. 15+1 is still a good capacity.

Mine holds all 16 rounds and seats with the slide closed. My trigger smoothed up with a liberal dose of dry fire in preparation for the first range session. Thanks for taking time to review this pistol. It's kind of the red-headed step-child of the S&W line. I didn't buy it for the price either. I actually like a DAO style trigger with a consistent pull. While mine is a little heavy according to others, it reminds me of a light revolver trigger which is what I prefer. Keep us updated as the round count climbs. I just don't have time to review anything right now so my review would have gaps and prove hard to follow. I'm glad you took on the task! Thanks again.

[djmorris]

I've seen these going for as low as $290. Please post updates as you put more rounds through this baby because at that price point I'm very close to biting. $290 for a quality 9mm would definitely please me, and my wallet.

[Redbeardsong]

I just bought an M&P9 with the new, improved reset trigger. Like it a lot so far, but the grip doesn't feel as good to my hand as the SD9VE does, and it's a little long for carry. With a better trigger, the SD9 would be a great carry option.

[DanjojoUSMC]

The trigger is at least better than the 90's Kel-Tec P11 I used to carry. Lots of practice needed to make good hits with it under stress.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

This first picture is the first 2 magazines I ran through the gun. Target shot at 7 yds approximately, 115 grain WWB. 30 total rounds. For full disclosure, 3 or 4 of those were shot very close up just for grins and giggles. One little flyer down there all by his lonesome. Sorry for the crappy pics, Stickman was unavailable on Saturday.:)

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h420/SBR2340/001_zps568831a4-1_zps8a3aa6a4.jpg

Now here is the one I'd rather not post a picture of, and is deserving of ridicule. Target was shot at approximately 12-15 yds, 30 total rounds. A few (7 actually lol) flyers but then I settled in and was able to get a decent group going. As mentioned in the opening post, I struggle with low left grouping from jerking/slapping the trigger. More time behind the trigger and a dry fire regimen a few times a week should cure that over the next couple weeks.

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h420/SBR2340/002-1_zps43c21bb8-1_zpsd58153fe.jpg

I will update this thread with each range trip or if anybody has any questions about the gun.

[ericridebike]

Thanks for sharing your experience with it. I've been curious on how those performed. Sounds like a winner, especially at that price point.

[Bret]

I bought a SW9VE mostly based on the price. I liked it so much that I bought a SW40VE. I then found a SW40GVE (green frame), so I bought it. At the prices I paid and the fact that I got two extra hicap mags with each, I think they're quite a bargain. The trigger is their only downside. Assuming the SD9VE is improved overall, I don't think you could go wrong.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

I bought a SW9VE mostly based on the price. I liked it so much that I bought a SW40VE. I then found a SW40GVE (green frame), so I bought it. At the prices I paid and the fact that I got two extra hicap mags with each, I think they're quite a bargain. The trigger is their only downside. Assuming the SD9VE is improved overall, I don't think you could go wrong.

The SD and SW guns are not one in the same. The only changes that were made to the SD line was they dropped the front night sight in favor of a standard metal sight, the rear metal sight was replaced with a polymer one, and the black finish on the slide. Some would call that a degrade, but I'm just fine with the stainless finish and the absence of a front night sight isn't that big of deal. The polymer rear sight also doesn't hurt my feelings.

Another range report to follow tomorrow, weather permitting.

[Bret]

Is the trigger of the SW*VE pistols different from the SD*VE pistols?

[windigo]

I have seen many examples of the VE series pistols selling sub $300.

For those on a budget and unwilling to peruse the used market, you can do a lot worse

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

Is the trigger of the SW*VE pistols different from the SD*VE pistols?

Yes, the only commonality between the two is that they use the same magazines with different base pads. The last incarnation of the Sigma was called the SWVE before S&W quit making them.

While not a great trigger, the SD's trigger is miles above the Sigma's or SWVE's.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

I received the Apex spring kit in the mail yesterday and installed it this morning. Piece a' cake to install. I don't have a trigger scale, but I guesstimate the trigger pull to be around 5.5lbs+-. It's a whole lot smoother as well.

I went to the local gravel pit this morning and put another 200 round through the pistol. 100 rounds of Tula(no you don't need stronger glasses it does say Tula), 50 rounds of WWB and 50 Gold Dots. No malfunctions whatsoever.

The Apex spring kit is well worth the $23. It made a big difference in my accuracy today, which still needs some work. We did some short range social work training, as well as trying to pick off clay pigeons off the bank at 25 yards. I was able to dance all around the clay targets and even hit a few. The gun seems to be more accurate than I am right now.

Next up is a set of Trijicon HD night sights.

[twistedcomrade]

Thanks for the extended review Five. This pistol sounds like a great vehicle gun based on the price. I the bet a used one would be very reasonably priced.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

My pleasure. I decided to do an ongoing review of this pistol so that I could provide people who are on the fence about it like I was a complete unbiased and honest review. Now that I have the Apex spring kit installed, I really have no complaints about it. This gun is a definite sleeper.

[blueorison]

Mine holds all 16 rounds and seats with the slide closed. My trigger smoothed up with a liberal dose of dry fire in preparation for the first range session. Thanks for taking time to review this pistol. It's kind of the red-headed step-child of the S&W line. I didn't buy it for the price either. I actually like a DAO style trigger with a consistent pull. While mine is a little heavy according to others, it reminds me of a light revolver trigger which is what I prefer. Keep us updated as the round count climbs. I just don't have time to review anything right now so my review would have gaps and prove hard to follow. I'm glad you took on the task! Thanks again.

It is the red-headed stepchild, isn't it? :p

I've shot them, and they work fine. No failures.

Unless you count the 14lb trigger on the earlier models a failure.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

It is the red-headed stepchild, isn't it? :p

I've shot them, and they work fine. No failures.

Unless you count the 14lb trigger on the earlier models a failure.

The SD series never had a 14lb trigger. 8-9lbs is factory, around 5.5lbs after Apex goodies. You're thinking of the Sigma.

Since my last update I've put a couple hundred more rounds through the pistol with no issues, I've just been lazy about updating the thread.

[PathofPain]

Thanks for your ongoing review of the SD9. You posts have prompted my interest in this pistol. I appreciate you taking the time to post up your results.

I've looked everywhere and cannot find the info - any idea on a parts count for it or an exploded diagram?

[blueorison]

The SD series never had a 14lb trigger. 8-9lbs is factory, around 5.5lbs after Apex goodies. You're thinking of the Sigma.

Since my last update I've put a couple hundred more rounds through the pistol with no issues, I've just been lazy about updating the thread.

You're right, I associated them to be the same thing. :D

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

Thanks for your ongoing review of the SD9. You posts have prompted my interest in this pistol. I appreciate you taking the time to post up your results.

I've looked everywhere and cannot find the info - any idea on a parts count for it or an exploded diagram?

Your welcome. Sorry I can't help with a parts count or exploded diagram. My best guess is like Glock and the M&P line, they have all the parts they need and none they don't.

[djmorris]

I purchased one of these for $339. Using some store credit I have, my price will only be about $200. Not bad for a brand new 'almost' M&P with 2 magazines. I'm also purchasing the $20 Apex trigger kit to fix the trigger right off the bat.

Most places that actually have an M&P9 in stock right now are charging about $550 each so given the price point of the SD9VE it may not be a bad option these days. Everything I have heard points to them being as reliable as the M&P, just missing a couple of features. I will post updates on here after I receive the gun and put some rounds down range. I purchased the gun as a secondary or "beater" but I am expecting great things from it given Smith & Wesson's great track record lately.

[xjustintimex]

A friend of mine got one of these and I got to shoot it. The trigger is absolutely terrible as far as weight goes. Everything else was fine. Is there aftermarket out yet to compensate for the trigger?

[Sry0fcr]

Just curious, will M&P sights fit in the dovetails on the SD series? I've been interested in these for a while but never bit because I didn't want to go first.

[djmorris]

A friend of mine got one of these and I got to shoot it. The trigger is absolutely terrible as far as weight goes. Everything else was fine. Is there aftermarket out yet to compensate for the trigger?

Yes. As mentioned in my post above, Apex sells a trigger kit for $20 which I've heard greatly enhances it. I believe it brings it down to a 5lb pull, whereas the stock trigger is a 8.5lb pull.


Just curious, will M&P sights fit in the dovetails on the SD series? I've been interested in these for a while but never bit because I didn't want to go first.

Yes, the SD line uses M&P sights.

[kcara]

Nice review. I am thinking about buying one. Keep us updated.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

I purchased one of these for $339. Using some store credit I have, my price will only be about $200. Not bad for a brand new 'almost' M&P with 2 magazines. I'm also purchasing the $20 Apex trigger kit to fix the trigger right off the bat.

Most places that actually have an M&P9 in stock right now are charging about $550 each so given the price point of the SD9VE it may not be a bad option these days. Everything I have heard points to them being as reliable as the M&P, just missing a couple of features. I will post updates on here after I receive the gun and put some rounds down range. I purchased the gun as a secondary or "beater" but I am expecting great things from it given Smith & Wesson's great track record lately.

Congrats on the new pistol. Mine is still treating me well. My trigger pull is around 5.5lbs after Apex goodies. Not only does it lighten the pull, it smooths it out nicely.

As far as accuracy is concerned, I'm beginning to think mine prefers the 147 grain boolits. More details to follow in the coming weeks after some more testing.

[slamd095]

Awesome thread!

I have had mine for a little over a year. At this time, the gun has chewed through at least 500 rounds. (probably more) I know in the grand scheme of things this isnt much. However, one of the first things I modified immediately was the trigger. Doing a double tap drill was one of the hardest parts of training with this gun. With the new trigger in place, I am seeing a lot of improvements. So far, so good.

[oldtexan]

I'm curious as to what holsters SD owners are using, particularly for IWB carry. I noticed that the SD is not listed on Raven's website as being a gun for which they make holsters.

[Bret]

I don't see how the SD holster would be any different than any other Sigma holster. The pistol profile is the same.

[djmorris]

I don't see how the SD holster would be any different than any other Sigma holster. The pistol profile is the same.

While a Sigma holster may well fit an SD; it has to be said.... the SD is NOT a Sigma anymore than it is an M&P! The SD series has replaced the now discontinued Sigma as S&W's entry level and is a far better gun than the Sigma's could ever dream to be.

[Bret]

the SD is NOT a Sigma anymore than it is an M&P!
I'm going to have to disagree. The SD9VE evolved from the SW9VE which evolved from the Sigma (I think I skipped a couple of variations in between). It's like the M4's that the military is using now. They are significantly better weapons than the original M16's from back in the '60's, but the evolution is clear.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

I'm going to have to disagree. The SD9VE evolved from the SW9VE which evolved from the Sigma (I think I skipped a couple of variations in between). It's like the M4's that the military is using now. They are significantly better weapons than the original M16's from back in the '60's, but the evolution is clear.

The SD has been a different gun from the beginning. Yes, they use the magazines but that is where the similarities stop.

As far as holsters, my SD9 has fit every M&P holster I've test fit, while most holsters for the Sigma don't seem to fit well at all.

[oldtexan]

The SD has been a different gun from the beginning. Yes, they use the magazines but that is where the similarities stop.

As far as holsters, my SD9 has fit every M&P holster I've test fit, while most holsters for the Sigma don't seem to fit well at all.

Five_Point_Five_Six, thanks. Have you had the opportunity to see how the SD works in close-fitting kydex holsters, like maybe a Raven Phantom?

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

Five_Point_Five_Six, thanks. Have you had the opportunity to see how the SD works in close-fitting kydex holsters, like maybe a Raven Phantom?

Yes, all holsters including kydex for the M&P have fit the SD so far. I carry mine daily in a homemade kydex rig.

[djmorris]

I'm going to have to disagree. The SD9VE evolved from the SW9VE which evolved from the Sigma (I think I skipped a couple of variations in between). It's like the M4's that the military is using now. They are significantly better weapons than the original M16's from back in the '60's, but the evolution is clear.


Apples to oranges. The M4/M16 are just variations on the AR15 platform.

[Bret]

Apples to oranges. The M4/M16 are just variations on the AR15 platform.
I'm not talking about the current M16 vs the current M4. I'm talking about how we got from the original versions that were seen in Vietnam to where we are now. There are significant differences that effect performance, but the lineage is clear. Same with the Sigma vs the current SD. The SW9VE was obviously the starting point in the design of the SD9VE. To ignore the connection seems silly to me. It's almost like some think the SD9VE is somehow less of a pistol because it's related to the SW9VE or the original Sigma.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

The SW9VE was obviously the starting point in the design of the SD9VE. To ignore the connection seems silly to me. It's almost like some think the SD9VE is somehow less of a pistol because it's related to the SW9VE or the original Sigma.

The VE or "Value Enhanced" versions came out at the same time before the SWVE or Sigma was dropped from the lineup. The original SD series was meant to bridge the gap between the Sigma and M&P line, but after sales were lower than expected, they opted to drop the factory front night sight and melonite finish on the slide and offer it at near Sigma prices.

The SD and Sigma series have been different guns from the beginning. Same magazines, yes. My personal experience tells me that the SD actually has more of a likeness with the M&P than it does the Sigma.

I believe the SD9 is the Glock 19 sized M&P that many people have wanted for some time. We will see how the gun shakes out over the course of the next year or so. I'm not going to be able to go full Greg Bell on it, but I plan on putting a lot of rounds through it in the upcoming months.

[1911-A1]

I played with one of these guns yesterday in the shop. I was considering getting one for my mom.

The trigger WAS heavy, but nothing unmanageable. What gave me cause for concern was the fact that, during the trigger pull, the entire slide shifted to the right and seemed to twist a tiny bit as I pulled. This of course moved the muzzle as well.

Do they ALL do that, or did I just find a "special" one?

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

I played with one of these guns yesterday in the shop. I was considering getting one for my mom.

The trigger WAS heavy, but nothing unmanageable. What gave me cause for concern was the fact that, during the trigger pull, the entire slide shifted to the right and seemed to twist a tiny bit as I pulled. This of course moved the muzzle as well.

Do they ALL do that, or did I just find a "special" one?

I tried to replicate what you described, and wasn't able to.

[c3006]

I played with one of these guns yesterday in the shop. I was considering getting one for my mom.

The trigger WAS heavy, but nothing unmanageable. What gave me cause for concern was the fact that, during the trigger pull, the entire slide shifted to the right and seemed to twist a tiny bit as I pulled. This of course moved the muzzle as well.

Do they ALL do that, or did I just find a "special" one?

No I don't think you have found a special one.i have seen this phenomena all the way thru the sigma line from beginning to now. It depends on the fit of the slide to the frame as to how bad it is. I haven't shot or tore down the new pistol yet but I'm gonna be shocked if I find much different when I do. The sigma has always been what it is,a entry level pistol with a somewhat decent reliability rating.

[Deadwing]

Thanks for the write-up. It definitely helped me make my decision. I picked one up yesterday. It feels great in my giant hands, much better than my G19. The trigger in mine is really quite smooth, if not a bit heavier than i'd like. I'm looking forward to getting some range time with it.

[Denali]

One thing I forgot to mention in the opening post. The mags are 16 round capacity. However, this gun cannot be loaded 16+1. There is no way to seat the magazine fully without possibly dimpling the top round in the magazine. I don't know if all of them are this way, but I suspect they are. They should have just made the follower fatter and made them a true 15 round capacity. It's not a big deal, but worth mentioning. 15+1 is still a good capacity.

Shoot the pistol a few hundred times, it should be able to seat a full magazine with one chambered. If not, your magazines may be out of spec...

[jh9]

The SD9VE evolved from the SW9VE which evolved from the Sigma

You are correct.

More than that, there's at least some parts shared between the Sigma, SD-series and the M&P. I know for certain that all three use the same trigger return spring.

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/trigger-parts/trigger-springs/trigger-return-spring-prod14875.aspx

I'm reasonably sure the Sigma and SD-series use the same part for the slide stop. I'd be surprised if they didn't, since everything about that part but the pad is a direct copy of the Glock.

The Sigma and SD-series don't share the same extractor setup since, IIRC, that was one of the points in the Glock patent infringement suit. The Sigma uses the same bearing and spring system as the Glock. The SD-series uses the same pinned-through-the-slide setup as the M&P (and the 3rd gen metal frame autos before that).

The Sigma and SD-series use the same barrel-stop, if not the same parts then the same design. It's a carbon copy of the Glock, whereas the M&P uses something similar to the rotating Sig/Beretta system.

The Sigma and SD-series are similar enough in frame design that they share the same install video for the Apex spring kit. (Though, honestly, if they made a Glock spring kit they could use that video. S&W lost that lawsuit for a reason.) I can't find the parts numbers through Brownells, so I can't tell for certain if the trigger bar and sear assembly housings are the same or just very, very similar.

That's not to say it's not a serviceable design. I don't know of any major issues with the matured Sigma design, and the generally favorable impression most shooters have with the SD-series seems to bear this out.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

Another 200 rounds through the SD9 last night. No problems whatsoever.

[dlh2689]

Thank you for posting a review, I haven't heard much about this gun. I already own an M&P so I don't think I'll be picking this gun up anytime soon.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

Just an overall, more detailed update on this gun.

First and foremost, lets get the most important aspect in a carry gun out of the way... reliability. I can't get this gun to malfunction. Off hand, weak hand, limp wrist, one hand, brass case, steel case, cold weather, hot weather, wearing gloves, not wearing gloves, sunny days, rainy days, I can not get it to malfuntion. The first time I shot the gun right after I bought it, it failed to lock the slide back one time, on the first or second magazine that I ran through it. That has been it. It's never failed to go to slide lock since. I may or may not have been riding the slide stop lever.

Reliability A-( I gave it an A- instead of an A+ due to the one failure to lock the slide back even though that may have been my fault and not the guns.)

Accuracy A- for the gun, C+ for the shooer. I"m certainly no Dave Sevigny, but I have no complaints about the guns accuracy when I am doing my part correctly. I don't get any wild groupings that can't be traced back to operator error.

Shootability B- from the factory, A- after Apex trigger kit From the factory, the trigger is around 8-9 lbs with a long reset. I found that I could not shoot the gun to my full potential due to the stock trigger being unacceptably heavy for my taste, so I bought the Apex trigger kit. I would guess the trigger pull is now around 5.5-6 lbs and is much smoother than stock.

Felt recoil, recoil impulse, muzzle flip, whatever you wanna call it, is minimal. Then again it's an almost full size gun chambered in 9mm so recoil is minimal anyway.

I don't know what to call the grip texture on it, it's not smooth and it's not stippled, but whatever it is seems to work just fine. The little textured thumb and trigger finger index points are in the right place for my hands.

It will not auto forward on mag changes like some have reported the full size M&P does no matter how hard I slam the fresh mag into the gun. The mag release, and slide stop lever are both easily manipulated for me without much of a change in grip.


Carrying ability A+. The closest gun I know of to compare the SD9 to would be the Glock 19 in terms of size(I know this because I've owned and carried a Glock 19 in the past). I haven't encountered any instance where I was not able to effectively conceal the SD9. I do not dress around the gun. I wear the same style and size clothes that I would wear if I didn't carry a gun. Even in shorts and a tshirt, I can conceal it very well with my homemade Raven knock off holster OWB. It also carries very well IWB.



Aftermarket accessories B+ There are more holster makers offering holsters for the SD series now than there was when I bought the gun last December. I found that holsters for the full size M&P work well for the SD, Sigma holsters do not, or at least the ones I tried. Sight options that are listed for the SD series are limited as well, but thank God that M&P sights fit the SD series.

Bottom line, I'm pleased with the gun, and feel confident in using it as my EDC. If something causes that to change, I will post it in this thread.

[Big_Jim]

Again, Thanks for the review. I've been thinking of one for the "truck gun" role.

[M_Rapp]

Again, Thanks for the review. I've been thinking of one for the "truck gun" role.
Ditto.. For the price it seems like a decent option...

[maw1777]

I think I'd get an SR9 or EAA witness as a cheap truck gun over the SW. It looks good though. SW usually have good quality.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

I think I'd get an SR9 or EAA witness as a cheap truck gun over the SW. It looks good though. SW usually have good quality.

I don't have any experience with the EAA Witness, but there's no way I'd take a Ruger SR9 over the SD9 from S&W.