for those who think M&Ps don't group well

[mike benedict]

Here is a 6 shot group fired at 20 yards offhand
The ammo was Freedom Munitions 115 grain 9mm ball.
Pistol is a 2 year old M&P Pro with a standard old style barrel.


http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/c135.0.403.403/p403x403/385630_4639003366042_644983175_n.jpg

[tb-av]

That's a sample of 1. I believe the issue has always been that yours might group, the next one won't. Lack of consistency not inability to group.

[ralph]

And your point is?? If you've read any of the threads about M&P accuracy issues, you'd understand that it is a RANDOM issue..Your target proves you got a good one...Many of us here, did'nt..

[mike benedict]

I have 12 M&Ps and all of mine shoot very well.

I have only seen one M&P 9mm of the hundreds that came through my shop that shot unacceptably and a new barrel solved its problem. I understand that other folks have had less success but I have not seen it myself.

I have had two M&P in the shop with high round counts that had worn out barrels. It seems to me that 40,000 rounds is the barrel life of an M&P. Both of those pistols still shot ok but accuracy was 5-6 inches at 20 yards.
Most of the M&Ps that customers brought by for me to look at, had owner trigger control issues and not mechanical accuracy issues.
YMMV

[Ty_B]

The M&P accuracy issue isn't like whether or not you believe in Santa Clause.

Is that your assertion?

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

I have 12 M&Ps and all of mine shoot very well.

I have only seen one M&P 9mm of the hundreds that came through my shop that shot unacceptably and a new barrel solved its problem. I understand that other folks have had less success but I have not seen it myself.

I have had two M&P in the shop with high round counts that had worn out barrels. It seems to me that 40,000 rounds is the barrel life of an M&P. Both of those pistols still shot ok but accuracy was 5-6 inches at 20 yards.
Most of the M&Ps that customers brought by for me to look at, had owner trigger control issues and not mechanical accuracy issues.
YMMV

This post is no different than the Glock fanboys that think that because their new Glock doesn't pelt them in the face with hot angry brass that the problem doesn't exist.

[francobx22]

Then why do people buy aftermarket barrels to make M&Ps accurate constantly?

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[mike benedict]

The M&P accuracy issue isn't like whether or not you believe in Santa Clause.

Is that your assertion?

I like that

I would really like to look at some M&Ps with the fabled accuracy problems, I'm sure they do exist but I doubt if it is any more common than problems with any other service pistol.

If anyone has one that shoots poorly and are in North Georgia and wants to bring them by, I would love to test them out at my range. I will even spring for BBQ

[SurplusShooter]

to the OP: Your M&P groups well out-of-the box but mine did not.

since we are all talking about "sample size of 1" here's my one experience:

I had a M&P 9mm "pro" but it was the 4.25 barrel with night-sights ("sorta-pro" edition), bought in 2011.
I always had trouble couldn't get a tight group out of it. My cheap 9mm 1911 was better at making tighter groups, which is sad. I thought it was me, had another person at my gun-club shoot it (he is highly regarded) and with other pistols he could make a good group on-paper but with my M&P it was all-over the place. I tried different ammo, all sorts of stuff to figure it out.
Finally sent mine back to S&W for "accuracy issues" this was early 2012. It came back with a barrel that looked slightly different at the chamber area, some different machining cuts near the locking lug (sorry I didn't get before/after pictures). The M&P now definitely makes better groups on-paper, I do have my before/after paper targets and there is a visible difference.

In summary, I guess I got a bad one, barrel change by S&W fixed it.

[nethole]

I have a M&P9, groups all over the place
I have a M&P9c, groups much tighter. Very tight, considering it's a compact.
I have a M&P45, groups not as tight as the 9c, but better than the 9 (and this 45 has the nastiest, grittyest, and strongest trigger pull of the whole bunch, so bad, that unless you concentrate, you'll be yanking your hand down and to the left).

There are good M&Ps,
There are bad M&Ps

[Deputy Dan]

My FS9 shoots like ass (10"or larger groups at 25 on a good day with 115 or 124, only starts marginally acceptable groups with 147)... my G19 will hold the 10 ring of a B8 at 25 yds as long as I do my part, and with just about anything I stuff the magazine with. It went back to S&W, and all they did is reshoot it at 15 yds and send it back with a test target and a letter saying that it met their accuracy standards. At 15 it shoots ok, at 25 yds it turns to shit.

My M&P.40 shoots like a champ. Many of my shooting companions have had the same experience... the 9 is a dog and the 40 is GTG.

Sample size of one, I know... but it is sad when I can outshoot my FS9 with a BYF43 P38 with a shit trigger.

ETA... My M&P Shield 9 shoots rings around the FS... hopefully S&W pulls their head out of their ass and corrects the accuracy issue with the M&P 9. I am grateful for the work Randy Lee is doing to correct the accuracy issue, but S&W should have done some product improvement.

[YVK]

Ten round group, one miss just above the 3x5 (the hole in the backer, altogether out of the head box, is not from the same string), 124 grain Aguila ammo, 25 yards unsupported, HK P30 with 5.25 lbs trigger

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/Heartachedoc/photobucket-37885-1356373696221.jpg

Same ammo, distance, 10 rounds unsupported, Gen4 G17 with 5.5 lbs trigger

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/Heartachedoc/photobucket-23050-1356373834794.jpg

Now imagine a clean 3x5, maybe one hit, and others all around it, and that's what my FS MP9 with 5.0l lbs Apexed trigger produces.

I have no preferential vested interest in any of the above, I only want then to shoot better than I can. My MP clearly can't.

[Hogsgunwild]

I went to the range with a friend Friday to let him shoot a bunch of my guns (plus I felt like having a diverse range day with guns that I had not shot much lately).

H&K USP .45, Springfield Pro, M&P .45 midsize, PPQ 9MM (normal carry gun) and M&P 9MM. I was happy that I kept nearly all rounds from all of the guns in the head on a man silhouette target (the Pro held very tight groups but to the left a couple of inches due to my trigger control with it) except for the M&P 9MM fullsize. I stopped after one magazine as it was all over the place and the only gun that made me look shit. And this M&P was re-barreled by S&W already.

[Joe R.]

As stated the problem lies in the inconsistent accuracy demonstrated from pistol to pistol and between ammunition types.

I have shot M&P 9s that are acceptable and others that just plain sucked. I had two, both fell in the barely acceptable range. After 15K rounds my primary went from being a 5-6" gun at 25 yards to a 7-8" gun at the same distance. A drop in Storm Lake and a new barrel from Smith didn't help matters.

People who are smarter them I am have determined there are several reasons for the accuracy issues. Between locking blocks, barrel lock up and twist rates and the inherent tolerance stacking it's a crap shot as to whether your gun will shoot to your expectations or not.

To claim that everyone who complains about M&P 9 accuracy can't shoot is a very broad statement and assumes a lot. On the same day that I made the decision to shelve my M&Ps due to lousy accuracy (7-8" groups at 25 yards), I shot a sub 3" group with a Glock 19 that had only sights and a - connector installed. In law enforcement we call that a clue.

You have been lucky Mike. Your guns with your ammo shoot to your expectations. Not everybody has had the same experience.

[Kchen986]

Ten round group, one miss just above the 3x5 (the hole in the backer, altogether out of the head box, is not from the same string), 124 grain Aguila ammo, 25 yards unsupported, HK P30 with 5.25 lbs trigger

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/Heartachedoc/photobucket-37885-1356373696221.jpg

Same ammo, distance, 10 rounds unsupported, Gen4 G17 with 5.5 lbs trigger

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/Heartachedoc/photobucket-23050-1356373834794.jpg

Now imagine a clean 3x5, maybe one hit, and others all around it, and that's what my FS MP9 with 5.0l lbs Apexed trigger produces.

I have no preferential vested interest in any of the above, I only want then to shoot better than I can. My MP clearly can't.

This has been my experience as well. I can shoot tight groups at 25 yard with my P30 and G19, but end up patterning with my M&P9. I had the stock sear, the 5# APEX DCAEK, and then a 4lb polished Apex sear. All shot pretty horridly at 25 yards.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GkrzVnpo-ZM/UMk-TVH60XI/AAAAAAAADis/g9UkGwRDOkY/s640/20121212_213022.jpg

Ironically, my best group was with the stock sear.

[David Thomas]

I like that

I would really like to look at some M&Ps with the fabled accuracy problems, I'm sure they do exist but I doubt if it is any more common the problems with any other service pistol.


Very nice way of saying: "it's not me, it's YOU!!!"

Nice shooting. I would love to see some 10 shot groups at 25.

[Sam]

Here is a little secret, Mike Benedict is a 4 gun IDPA Master and former USPSA World Team member way before most members here are born. He still shoot truck loads of ammo every year. He can out shoot at least half of the people on this forum. So it's no tough task for him to shoot that tight a group with the M&P. I bet he can even shoot little groups with a Highpoint or Jennings.

[militarymoron]

From my personal experience and sample size of 1, my M&P fullsize 9mm accuracy issue was 100% real. it was one of the first ones to hit the market, and had tight chamber issues. accuracy seemed acceptable when i first got it, but live ammo kept getting stuck, so i sent it back to S&W. when it came back, it'd function fine, but accuracy was terrible. noticeably worse than before, and about double the group size that i could shoot with my G19 or 17.

i kept thinking that it was just me, and eventually stopped shooting it because i was so bad with it and it was embarrassing. one day, i was at the range with fellow moderator SMGLEE, who had a later model fullsize M&P 9mm. i explained my issue, and demonstrated it, shooting at a target. group size was just horrible. he couldn't do any better. we then swapped out my barrel with his. group size immediately shrunk to normal/expected size, with the same ammo, for both of us. stuck in my barrel again, and it opened up. the only variable was the barrel.

ended up sending it back to S&W again, and when it came back, it had a new barrel and shot acceptably accurately.

[JHC]

I'll add a weird twist to this. My avatar is a group fired in my hands; a Gen 4 G17; one of the first on the shelves here in 2010. It shot almost any quality ammo very very well. That avatar group measured 1.5" shot resting.

At that same time I had a M&P Pro that impressed me greatly except it wouldn't group any of the half dozen premium loads I tried in it better than about 5" at 25 yards (rested). I say it wouldn't group because I can shoot 2" with Glocks and my 1911 and my S&W revolvers.

The weird thing is . . . Mike Benedict bought THAT Pro from the LGS I traded it back in on another Glock. :D

Great shooting MB!

[mikebenedict]

I'll add a weird twist to this. My avatar is a group fired in my hands; a Gen 4 G17; one of the first on the shelves here in 2010. It shot almost any quality ammo very very well. That avatar group measured 1.5" shot resting.

At that same time I had a M&P Pro that impressed me greatly except it wouldn't group any of the half dozen premium loads I tried in it better than about 5" at 25 yards (rested). I say it wouldn't group because I can shoot 2" with Glocks and my 1911 and my S&W revolvers.

The weird thing is . . . Mike Benedict bought THAT Pro from the LGS I traded it back in on another Glock. :D

Great shooting MB!
And thanks for selling me that pistol it really shoots well:D

[C4IGrant]

I like that

I would really like to look at some M&Ps with the fabled accuracy problems, I'm sure they do exist but I doubt if it is any more common than problems with any other service pistol.

If anyone has one that shoots poorly and are in North Georgia and wants to bring them by, I would love to test them out at my range. I will even spring for BBQ

People like myself, Vickers, Hackathorn, etc "look" at them all the time. They range between 6-8" at 25yds. On top of this, I have a Ransom Rest that I test guns in.

Does every FS M&P suck at 25yds? Nope. My guess is that about 40% of the FS M&P's produced CANNOT group better than 6 inches @ 25yds.

I do agree that many people cannot shoot and wouldn't have any idea if their gun can group well or not. The clue though is when they post pics of groups with other guns or when I fit a barrel to their gun and they are now producing 2-2.5" groups.

Last, but not least, the majority (if not all) the S&W shooting team members are running a fitted Storm Lake barrel. I think this is a clue.



C4

[francobx22]

Last, but not least, the majority (if not all) the S&W shooting team members are running a fitted Storm Lake barrel. I think this is a clue.



C4

Ya just gave away the holy grail there C4 lol :D :beer:

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[Hogsgunwild]

Hey Mike, if you are confident that there are no faulty M&Ps out there, how about a little trade? One of your M&Ps for one of mine? :meeting:

[GUNSLINGER733]

Just some heads up my M&P 9 with factory barrel grouped at 4" the weekend with 124g PMC ammo. It would have been 3" but I believe I didn't pull crisply on 5th shot. I'm satisfied.

[nethole]

Hey Mike, if you are confident that there are no faulty M&Ps out there, how about a little trade? One of your M&Ps for one of mine? :meeting:

Take mine too, and give me a good one. (as I mentioned, my MP45 (with nasty awful trigger) groups fine, and my MP9C groups even better, it's just the MP9 that I received that's a poor excuse for a weapon)

[Hogsgunwild]

Yeah, you've got twelve of them anyhow, right? What's the matter with swapping a couple out with some that really are not inaccurate anyway?

Where is your Christmas Spirit?

[Surf]

30 random testers all currently issued the same pistol which will be replaced. All are trained shooters at a base level, but obviously with various current skill levels. Test conducted over a 30 day period. 15 M&P 9mm (new, current serial #'s, direct from S&W) and 15 of another leading polymer semi automatic pistol (also new serial series, direct from manufacturer). All 30 pistols submitted as T&E weapons direct from both manufacturers.

15 testers were given the M&P and 15 were given the other polymer pistol. They were put through a 3 day familiarization / manipulation / shooting course, then they were allowed to carry the weapon and shoot it for 2 weeks. After 2 weeks the 2 groups swapped weapons, went through the same 3 day shooting evolution / course and again allowed to carry and shoot the weapon for 2 weeks.

At the end of the 30 day evaluation period each tester submitted a lengthy and in depth evaluation. In the category of accuracy, all 30 or 100% of the testers claimed poor accuracy results from the M&P. This was judged against their current carry pistol and against the other polymer pistol tested in the evaluation. Target comparisons and the results are obvious.

This was only a sample of 15 current serial number pistols and only judged against their current carry pistol and the other pistol directly involved in the testing. I will also say that I too find a noticeable difference in accuracy results in a stock 9 mike M&P and a wide range of other pistols in the same caliber.

[ygbsm]

People like myself, Vickers,
Last, but not least, the majority (if not all) the S&W shooting team members are running a fitted Storm Lake barrel. I think this is a clue.


C4

Team Glock Shooter KC Eusibio runs SJ Custom Glocks.

Not a one of his blasters is stock, including the barrel.

Viscusi's Production gun has an aftermarket barrel.

Does that mean the gun is innacurate?


Not quite the clue you are looking for.

[JBecker 72]

Question. Will one of the drop in Storm Lake barrels offer a significant increase in accuracy, or should I spend the extra coin for a fitted barrel?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[C4IGrant]

Team Glock Shooter KC Eusibio runs SJ Custom Glocks.

Not a one of his blasters is stock, including the barrel.

Viscusi's Production gun has an aftermarket barrel.

Does that mean the gun is innacurate?


Not quite the clue you are looking for.

It could be. I have seen lots of Glock's that shot below the owners skill level.


C4

[C4IGrant]

Question. Will one of the drop in Storm Lake barrels offer a significant increase in accuracy, or should I spend the extra coin for a fitted barrel?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

Nope.




C4

[JBecker 72]

Damn. Well thanks for saving me $140 or so.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[C4IGrant]

Damn. Well thanks for saving me $140 or so.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

You are welcome. I bought the same barrel when I realized my M&P didn't group better than 8" @ 25yds. It dropped the group size about 1" if I remember correctly (not enough to fix my problem).



C4

[Striker]

Team Glock Shooter KC Eusibio runs SJ Custom Glocks.

Not a one of his blasters is stock, including the barrel.

Viscusi's Production gun has an aftermarket barrel.

Does that mean the gun is innacurate?


Not quite the clue you are looking for.

Well, it's apparently not accurate enough for them. If you search for the thread Brian Searcy started awhile back, you'll see that the Tigerswan instructors put Wilson Combat barrels in their guns, meaning the stock barrel isn't accurate enough for them either. I believe Kyle Defoor does as well.

I have a Glock 17 that I really like, but let's be honest here; in general, Glock isn't on the same accuracy level as an HK or a Sig. At 7-10 yards, no real difference. But at 20 to 25 yards there's a measurable difference in accuracy. So IMHO, Glocks can use a fitted barrel as well. Does it need it as much as the M&P 9? No, but it brings Glock up to the HK/Sig accuracy level.

[francobx22]

Well, it's apparently not accurate enough for them. If you search for the thread Brian Searcy started awhile back, you'll see that the Tigerswan instructors put Wilson Combat barrels in their guns, meaning the stock barrel isn't accurate enough for them either. I believe Kyle Defoor does as well.

I have a Glock 17 that I really like, but let's be honest here; in general, Glock isn't on the same accuracy level as an HK or a Sig. At 7-10 yards, no real difference. But at 20 to 25 yards there's a measurable difference in accuracy. So IMHO, Glocks can use a fitted barrel as well. Does it need it as much as the M&P 9? No, but it brings Glock up to the HK/Sig accuracy level.

You lost me when you said SIG lol, since they started production in America exclusively their guns went to shit.

HK maybe, although 7-10yards to me isn't a reputable distance to determine accuracy. However 25yards+ HK does win this one vs glock but I don't think SIG is any means in the same bracket as HK, maybe their old W Germany models but none of their US made ones, imo.

But this doesn't change the fact that you need to do work to a MP to make it desirable to shoot.. thank god mine was free so I always try it out but man do I wanna throw it through a window at times.

And KD is a glock guy :p

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[Striker]

You lost me when you said SIG lol, since they started production in America exclusively their guns went to shit.

HK maybe, although 7-10yards to me isn't a reputable distance to determine accuracy. However 25yards+ HK does win this one vs glock but I don't think SIG is any means in the same bracket as HK, maybe their old W Germany models but none of their US made ones, imo.

But this doesn't change the fact that you need to do work to a MP to make it desirable to shoot.. thank god mine was free so I always try it out but man do I wanna throw it through a window at times.

And KD is a glock guy :p

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

I don't know, maybe we've shot different Sigs ; but the ones I've shot (German and U.S.) have been very accurate. And I'm not commenting on reliability or durability; just accuracy. In my experience, HK is even more so, but Glock doesn't shoot as accurately as either at the longer distances.

I agree, 7-10 yards isn't an accurate representation of accuracy. I was trying to make the same point. Lots of people don't run their pistols at 25 yards, or even 15 yards for that matter. So, they base their opinion on 7-10 yard accuracy, which as I said, there isn't any real difference at that distance.

[Ty_B]

People like myself, Vickers, Hackathorn, etc "look" at them all the time. They range between 6-8" at 25yds. On top of this, I have a Ransom Rest that I test guns in.

Does every FS M&P suck at 25yds? Nope. My guess is that about 40% of the FS M&P's produced CANNOT group better than 6 inches @ 25yds.

I do agree that many people cannot shoot and wouldn't have any idea if their gun can group well or not. The clue though is when they post pics of groups with other guns or when I fit a barrel to their gun and they are now producing 2-2.5" groups.

Last, but not least, the majority (if not all) the S&W shooting team members are running a fitted Storm Lake barrel. I think this is a clue.



C4

I thought someone on here did some testing with a Ransom rest to verify the M&P problem. Thanks for mentioning that.

Every few months there is a post that claims the M&P accuracy problem is a myth.

[C4IGrant]

I thought someone on here did some testing with a Ransom rest to verify the M&P problem. Thanks for mentioning that.

Every few months there is a post that claims the M&P accuracy problem is a myth.

Ya I know. People live in a buble and their example of ONE is "OK" and so they think ALL M&P's are good. Same goes for the Glock fanboys that think every Glock is perfect and don't have any extraction issues (as their example of 1-5 worked out of the box). :rolleyes:



C4

[PPGMD]

It could be. I have seen lots of Glock's that shot below the owners skill level.

Competition shooters typically require a greater level of accuracy than normal shooters.

Springfield XDM's are probably one of the most accurate of the polymer guns, yet Rob's XDM has hand fitted barrels (in his case he preferred welding up the stock barrel and then fitting it).

[C4IGrant]

Competition shooters typically require a greater level of accuracy than normal shooters.

Springfield XDM's are probably one of the most accurate of the polymer guns, yet Rob's XDM has hand fitted barrels (in his case he preferred welding up the stock barrel and then fitting it).


My Glock's, M&P's and 1911's have fitted barrels and I am not. Competition shooter.

C4

[7 RING]

You are welcome. I bought the same barrel when I realized my M&P didn't group better than 8" @ 25yds. It dropped the group size about 1" if I remember correctly (not enough to fix my problem).



C4

8" at 25 yards. That's not what I would have expected from a S&W.

[PPGMD]

My Glock's, M&P's and 1911's have fitted barrels and I am not. Competition shooter.

Your point?

You were using the fact that Team Smith and Wesson shooters bought your barrels, to prove that M&Ps have accuracy issues.

I was pointing out the fallacy in your argument, being that fitted barrels aren't unusual among competition shooters, even among guns that aren't known to have accuracy issues like the XDM and Sig X5.

ETA: I do think that some M&Ps have accuracy issues, in fact I will be among the first to get the fitted Apex Barsto barrels. With a little luck in time for Bianchi.

[S. Galbraith]

I had an early edition M&P9. I never could get any decent groupings out of it no matter what ammo I tried. Whether it was slow off-hand shooting at 25yrds, or double and tripple taps at 15yrds, I could never score better than my old DA/SA Sig P228s.

[7 RING]

My least accurate Glock will group 5-1/2" at 25 yards with ammunition it does not like. I can't believe that S&W would release a product that would be less accurate. Anyone in the industry have any insight on this?

[DanjojoUSMC]

I am curious how they test them, because a pistol that does a tight group at 10 or 15 yards does not shoot bullets that magically veer off track at 25 yards. That is a low-power BB gun type of situation.

[glockshooter]

Team Glock Shooter KC Eusibio runs SJ Custom Glocks.

Not a one of his blasters is stock, including the barrel.

Viscusi's Production gun has an aftermarket barrel.

Does that mean the gun is innacurate?


Not quite the clue you are looking for.

Trying to compare an open comp gun the a stock gun is an exercise in futility. An open gun uses an aftermarket barrel for several reason. A few examples are people shooting 9mm major and the need for extended and ported barrels. Open guns are a completely different animal. There is only one true way to find out the inherent accuracy of a pistol that is a ransom rest or something similar that removes the human factor. The truth is there are very few people in this world that are consistently as accurate as there weapon. Everyone may have a good day from time to time, but it's the consistency that separates good from great.

Matt

[OldState]

I have a m&p 45 FS and a 9c. The 45 is accurate and the 9c is a 8" gun at 25 yards benched...not so accurate.

I think the 2 major problems with these conversations are:

1- Everyone has a different definition of accuracy
2- Most people suck at shooting pistols but think they are ok.

People throw around various group sizes as what they deem acceptable for a defensive pistol. I rather think of things in terms of attainable mechanical accuracy from a handgun.

I was introduced to shooting with Bullseye as a teenager and still have my first accurized 1911; a series I Kimber base with a fitted Kart Barrel, National Match Bushing, trigger job, and all the works. It is a 1 1/16" gun at FIFTY yards off a Ransom Rest. This is the standard I measure every pistol against.

With my best reloads my M&P 45 is a 2-3" gun at 25 yards benched. To me this is acceptable but anything outside that bothers me because it makes it very difficult to diagnose my shooting. Was that me or was it the gun?

I love the m&p platform but will not buy another in 9mm until they fix this.

[C4IGrant]

Your point?

You were using the fact that Team Smith and Wesson shooters bought your barrels, to prove that M&Ps have accuracy issues.

I was pointing out the fallacy in your argument, being that fitted barrels aren't unusual among competition shooters, even among guns that aren't known to have accuracy issues like the XDM and Sig X5.

ETA: I do think that some M&Ps have accuracy issues, in fact I will be among the first to get the fitted Apex Barsto barrels. With a little luck in time for Bianchi.

The point is that a lot of competition shooters do find their guns accurate enough (especially on the Glock side). Not so with ANY of the S&W competition shooters.

The other point is that you do not have to be a competition shooter to want an accurate gun.



C4

[C4IGrant]

I am curious how they test them, because a pistol that does a tight group at 10 or 15 yards does not shoot bullets that magically veer off track at 25 yards. That is a low-power BB gun type of situation.

They shoot at 15yds for accuracy and only fire 3rds.

The M&P 9mm does not have any accuracy standard (that I am aware of). Because of this, you CAN get guns that shoot over 6" groups at 25yds.

Typically, when large LE agencies test guns for a bid, they generally ONLY look at reliability. Couple this with the fact that testing is done on large police targets at 15yds and in and this is why the M&P has NEVER failed a test due to accuracy problems.



C4

[PPGMD]

The point is that a lot of competition shooters do find their guns accurate enough (especially on the Glock side). Not so with ANY of the S&W competition shooters.

There are some, just as there are some that find the stock M&P barrel accurate enough. But at the upper levels of USPSA fitted barrels aren't unusual even among guns with zero reports of accuracy issues. Why? Because at those levels you have to squeeze every advantage they can.

Thus it is my opinion that using Team Smith & Wesson as evidence isn't really evidence at all. Hell I am sure they've tested every viable product for the M&P to see what works, and what doesn't. Remember at the top levels of competition a fraction of a percent often separates the winner from first loser.

Why not just show ransom rest tests instead of name dropping? Test every barrel that is sent in, and then test it after you fit it, and post the results.


The other point is that you do not have to be a competition shooter to want an accurate gun.

Never said otherwise, simply that competition REQUIRES an accurate gun, thus fitted barrels aren't unusual even at the club level.

[C4IGrant]

There are some, just as there are some that find the stock M&P barrel accurate enough. But at the upper levels of USPSA fitted barrels aren't unusual even among guns with zero reports of accuracy issues. Why? Because at those levels you have to squeeze every advantage they can.

Thus it is my opinion that using Team Smith & Wesson as evidence isn't really evidence at all. Hell I am sure they've tested every viable product for the M&P to see what works, and what doesn't. Remember at the top levels of competition a fraction of a percent often separates the winner from first loser.

Why not just show ransom rest tests instead of name dropping? Test every barrel that is sent in, and then test it after you fit it, and post the results.



Never said otherwise, simply that competition REQUIRES an accurate gun, thus fitted barrels aren't unusual even at the club level.


What you are saying MIGHT holder water. Luckily, I have talked to the folks about Storm Lake about WHY they went with their barrels. Hint, it wasn't to go from a 4" barrel to a 3" barrel. ;)

I have tested several M&P's with my R. Rest (factory barrel) and then with my fitted barrel and posted the results a long time ago.

I wish I had NOTHING else to do, but test every M&P, but since I see over 1,000 of them a year, there is just no way and honestly not worth the effort.



C4

[PPGMD]

What you are saying MIGHT holder water. Luckily, I have talked to the folks about Storm Lake about WHY they went with their barrels. Hint, it wasn't to go from a 4" barrel to a 3" barrel. ;)

So you are violating their trust inferring the results of those conversations without a formal endorsement? Because if they wanted to talk publicly about it they would give you a more formal endorsement, and you would come out and say it rather than sarcastically beat around the bush.


I have tested several M&P's with my R. Rest (factory barrel) and then with my fitted barrel and posted the results a long time ago.

Then post those results instead of name dropping your high profile customers. The entire gun industry has too much name dropping and too little hard results.


I wish I had NOTHING else to do, but test every M&P, but since I see over 1,000 of them a year, there is just no way and honestly not worth the effort.

So you don't test the barrels after you fit them? Your customers aren't very demanding are they, when I get a barrel fitted I send them ammo, and tell them the accuracy standards that I am expecting (for example with the M&P 9 Pros for Bianchi I will be expecting 3" or less at 50 yards using Atlanta Arms IN9HP).

[C4IGrant]

So you are violating their trust inferring the results of those conversations without a formal endorsement? Because if they wanted to talk publicly about it they would give you a more formal endorsement, and you would come out and say it rather than sarcastically beat around the bush.

LOL, try not to overreact. If you call SL and get the right person, they will probably tell you the same thing.

It is NO secret that the S&W shooting team went to SL for fitted barrels. There is also much more to the story, but that is not for public knowledge.




Then post those results instead of name dropping your high profile customers. The entire gun industry has too much name dropping and too little hard results.

The problem with assuming things is that you make yourself look like a fool. At no time did I say that I fitted barrels to the S&W shooting teams pistols. I simply stated that they use SL barrels (that were fitted).




So you don't test the barrels after you fit them? Your customers aren't very demanding are they, when I get a barrel fitted I send them ammo, and tell them the accuracy standards that I am expecting (for example with the M&P 9 Pros for Bianchi I will be expecting 3" or less at 50 yards using Atlanta Arms IN9HP).

Actually we do. We shoot at a 12" plate at 100yds. If it can hit that, we are more than good. If the customer wants to see target proof, we can easily offer this service.

We have had customers give us their preferred loads and we can chamber a barrel for that specific ammo if they like. Most though are not that demanding and are just looking for a reliable, accurate service pistol that will shoot 2"-2.5" or better at 25yds.



C4

[DanjojoUSMC]

Thank you for the insight Grant


They shoot at 15yds for accuracy and only fire 3rds.

The M&P 9mm does not have any accuracy standard (that I am aware of). Because of this, you CAN get guns that shoot over 6" groups at 25yds.

Typically, when large LE agencies test guns for a bid, they generally ONLY look at reliability. Couple this with the fact that testing is done on large police targets at 15yds and in and this is why the M&P has NEVER failed a test due to accuracy problems.



C4

[PPGMD]

LOL, try not to overreact. If you call SL and get the right person, they will probably tell you the same thing.

It is NO secret that the S&W shooting team went to SL for fitted barrels. There is also much more to the story, but that is not for public knowledge.

The problem with assuming things is that you make yourself look like a fool. At no time did I say that I fitted barrels to the S&W shooting teams pistols. I simply stated that they use SL barrels (that were fitted).

Oh the "I know the reason but I am not going to tell trust me." If it is not meant for public consumption, even hinting at it isn't meant for public consumption.

Honestly I am getting sick of that, either come out with the full story, or don't use it as proof.


Actually we do. We shoot at a 12" plate at 100yds. If it can hit that, we are more than good. If the customer wants to see target proof, we can easily offer this service.

An unusual method for proving accuracy since it produces nothing measurable.

[m4brian]

Just shot my newest MP 9 yesterday only about 100 rds. It is capable of about 5-6" At 25 yds. My problem is that I shoot about the same off hand as from a rest with a handgun. At 8-9 yds the gun did a tad better than 2" off hand. Yes, I can do a bit better with my CZs, but their trigger is much lighter and I am used to the trigger.

After a few more hundred, I'll determine the "need" for the SL ROUTE. Also need to try various ammo, but it seems accurate enough for 'combat' for now.

[1911pro]

My own personal experience with my two early production M&Ps at 25 yards was less than pleasing. I had to struggle to keep them on an 8x10 peice of paper at this distance when standing still. Going to a Glock 17 and 19 with factory barrels has cut my groups at least by half, with less effort on my part. Under 15 yards I noticed little difference in accuracy between the two. I just could not get past the fact that I could outshoot the M&P at longer distance. Could and maybe should have spent the money on a after market fitted barrel, but $400.00 is a used G17. If yours shoots well at 25 yards feel lucky. I do miss my laser grips...

Some might want to look here
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104659&page=5

[C4IGrant]

Thank you for the insight Grant

You are welcome for you Sir.


C4

[C4IGrant]

Oh the "I know the reason but I am not going to tell trust me." If it is not meant for public consumption, even hinting at it isn't meant for public consumption.

Honestly I am getting sick of that, either come out with the full story, or don't use it as proof.



An unusual method for proving accuracy since it produces nothing measurable.

Sorry, but my word is good around here. If you do not like it, hit the log off button.

Hitting a 12" plate at 100yds (consistently) IS a measurable method because that means that the barrel is capable of at least 3" groups at 25yds.

We now have close to 50 fitted barrels out there (to include my own) and not ONE single person has complained about a lack of accuracy or reliability.






C4

[m4brian]

I'll have to say that I went with the MP because of the grip/beaver tail as a platform, and the military pricing. I have a gen4 g19, which seems to need a GFA in order not to give me slide bite. It may be a tad more accurate than the MP at 25.

With the GFA, and gloves, the g19 is just not as useful. THE MP is very easy to grip with or without gloves. If I add a fitted barrel, I am still in a reasonable ballpark (600+) and would have a tack driver with night sights.

I alsO really like the MP slide serrations, and sight radius.

[Surf]

Typically, when large LE agencies test guns for a bid, they generally ONLY look at reliability. Couple this with the fact that testing is done on large police targets at 15yds and in and this is why the M&P has NEVER failed a test due to accuracy problems.



C4Well there is at least one (major metro PD) that cites one of the largest contributing factors noted by the testers was poor accuracy. At least in relation to their own current duty pistol and the other pistol involved in the testing and evaluation.

[C4IGrant]

Well there is at least one (major metro PD) that cites one of the largest contributing factors noted by the testers was poor accuracy. At least in relation to their own current duty pistol and the other pistol involved in the testing and evaluation.

Ya, there is probably one or two that pay attention to it, but as you know, most cops don't shoot all that well so they never know.




C4

[S. Galbraith]

.......as you know, most cops don't shoot all that well so they never know.

C4

Some don't, and some do. Many factors contribute to the deficiency. Chief selected firearms that are more safety conscience than operator ease conscience, expensive caliber selection that limits training, and restrictive range access/use are examples. Those of us that actually do shoot well and compete, separate ourselves as much as possible from those agency limitations. We buy our own equipment, reload, and shoot in places where we have greater training freedom. Not a lot of cops are willing to go outside of the box.

[C4IGrant]

Some don't, and some do. Many factors contribute to the deficiency. Chief selected firearms that are more safety conscience than operator ease conscience, expensive caliber selection that limits training, and restrictive range access/use are examples. Those of us that actually do shoot well and compete, separate ourselves as much as possible from those agency limitations. We buy our own equipment, reload, and shoot in places where we have greater training freedom. Not a lot of cops are willing to go outside of the box.

I understand why most (majority) of LE cannot shoot. At the end of the day, you have to take personal responsibility for your safety and seek training on your own and spend your OWN money for ammo.



C4

[GUNSLINGER733]

I must have bought a good one. Only difference is 10-8 sights and I did a little work on sear. Shoots 3.5"-4" groups at 25 yds. Is awesome but isn't bad either.

[ayank]

Mike and I recently did some group shooting with our M&Ps. My 4.25" model has about 25k rounds down the pipe and wouldn't do better than ~5" at 25 yards. I dropped in the barrel from his M&P Pro, and my next group was ~2".

It could be that my barrel is past its prime. I have a KKM barrel on order to test out that theory. If it gives me 2" groups, then I should have no trouble jumping up from Expert to Master the next time I shoot the classifier ;)

—Andreas

[ayank]

KKM isn't shipping until the end of the month, S&W is back ordered 4–6 weeks from the factory, and Storm Lake estimates that they'll ship product to dealers in 1–2 weeks.

I need to get into the barrel business…

—Andreas

[groot]

My POS MP 9FS is available in Michigan for anyone who believes they can hold better than I can at 25 yards.
I'm found around the Howell Gun Club, and also shooting MPCPA PPC competition (high master)

I'm a former IHMSA State champion, so I'm familiar with reasonable accuracy out to 218 yards.

this gun is a dog......

[Petrov]

This is me shooting a glock for the 2nd time in my life (G19 beat up rental)
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7177/6814269126_93260ce8c9_b.jpg


This is my full size M&P off the friggin sand bag (I did a mechanical rest too with the same results) Please notice that this is a 5 shot group with only 3 holes in the target.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7186/6960382115_b53cf85a0e_b.jpg



S&W if you are reading this I will make your engineers spoon a rabind porcupine.

[KalashniKEV]

My M&P9c had serious accuracy problems out of the box.

The first time I took it out was very frustrating- terrible groups, and then when I really got in the zone, concentrated on the fundamentals, channeled my focus... more terrible groups.

I knew it was an early model though, and sent it to S&W to have their revised sear installed, hoping that would solve the problem.

After I got it back, I still had the same pathetic results, and off it went. I cut a guy a really good deal on it to save my conscience.

S&W needs to get this thing right or just start selling frame kits so people can install APEX parts and Storm Lake barrels. My take away lesson from this experience was that the old, "If it feels great in your hand, it will print great on target!" is not always true.


You lost me when you said SIG lol, since they started production in America exclusively their guns went to shit.


Are you just repeating SIG bashing you've heard on the internet?

Most of the Made-in-America SIG bashing is around reliability, not accuracy.

[theblackknight]

Shot these 2 weeks ago in a rush to test out my reloads since getting a press. I didnt have my red lenses so it was really dark and was using top of A zone at POA at 25. Gun is a newer Pro 5in.
14855
sent from mah gun,using my sights

[KeeFus]

From M&P Pro 4.25 with stock barrel, 10 shots @ 25 yards, unsupported:

http://i.imgur.com/6TKyT.jpg

From same weapon with KKM Barrel, 10 shots @ 25 yards, unsupported:

http://i.imgur.com/PcsRL.jpg

[francobx22]

This just pains my eyes smh :banghead:

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2