View Full Version : Forgive me, for I have sinnned.... (polymer guns aren't precise enough)
I have tried to use handguns other than 1911s.
I tried to use the S&W M&P series, thinking if I saw enough military personnel using them, they might be worthy. But, the trigger sucks too much, and the accuracy on my MP9 is just laugh worthy.
I kept telling myself, that the side arm for a rifle backup didn't need to be 'accurate', I just needed 'MOAR bullets', if I were ever in a situation that required a rifle. But, I just can't stand the trigger, and the lack of being able to hit a hit target (8 inch groups at 15 yards) for a 'hostage situation at 15 yards' is just against what I believe in.
Forgive me for ever considering a weapon other than 1911s. Forgive me for having 'quantity envy'
---- An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age . . .
It ain't the arrow. 1911's can be very accurate pistols. So can many others.
Actually, in this case, it is
MP9C (groups acceptably for a polymer gun)
MP45 (groups less acceptably, but still ok, could use a DCAEK trigger)
MP9 (OMG what a piece of crap, sure it will shoot, but 'where exactly where it shoot')
And I pick up my Kimber, (able to shoot out the orange target sticker as a group)
pick up my cared for springfield A1 (able to shoot out another orange target sticker as a group)
pick up a used springfield TRP that I've never actually fired before today (able to shoot out another 1 inch orange target sticker as a group)
Try MP series, looks like shotgun blasts..... yich
It's the arrow.
Tennvol12345
12-28-12, 16:59
I shoot business cards at 10 yards and half size index cards at 15 yds with my MP9FS...to each his own
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
I shoot business cards at 10 yards and half size index cards with my MP9FS...to each his own
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
Good for you. You have a good one. Now take the 3 different S&W weapons I have,and realize the wide variation in precision in each. I had hoped to get one as precise as yours, I did not. Now I have to deal with S&W warranty service to try to get one more precise.
Go buy 3 more yourself, and see how precise each one is.
With the right ammunition, I would think any quality firearm should group 4" at 25 yards. Try different ammunition. If that doesn't work, ask S&W to take a look at it.
If you like plastic, there are other options. My Glock 22 will keep most shots inside the 8 ring on a B-27 silhouette target at 100 yards. The groups don't look pretty, but it's close enough for government work.
Try a PPQ or a HK.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
theJanitor
12-28-12, 18:12
What are we talking about? :suicide:
Certain platforms fit different people better. I wanted and HK 9mm pistol, but once I handled them, I wasn't impressed. I have carried a 5" SA Loaded, then Sig 226 Navy, Sig 229, Glock 19, and now I'm back to a 1911 only in a Commander size now.
There must be a reason they have been around for 101 years?? Sometimes old and outdated still do better than the latest and greatest.
I shoot Glocks every bit as well as I shoot my 1911. It just takes a bit of practice and time to adjust.
Either platform will yield "Center of Badguy" accuracy all day.
I shoot my Les Baer Custom Carry better than my Glock 19 and Sig P229R (which is my duty weapon, btw). 1911's are very easy guns to shoot.
Forgive me for ever considering a weapon other than 1911s. Forgive me for having 'quantity envy'
.
You are forgiven my son. Now, say 4 our father JMBs, 2 hail marys, and be safe.
As to the thread title... you made a blanket statement about polymer guns when you really mean M&Ps, I take it.
I'm not seeing any definitions of terms here. What size groups are you getting, at what distances, with your M&Ps? I mean, what's your standard for a "precise" gun?
Also, I'm sorry, but just because you can chew the center of a target out with a 1911 doesn't mean you're a living ransom rest that can evaluate all other pistol designs without error. The 1911 trigger is the most forgiving trigger there is, the S&W trigger is quite different, and the human element can easily introduce so much error that you can't say with any degree of confidence that the pistols are truly different in terms of mechanical precision.
Get your hands on a Glock 34 and try again, I think you'll find out that some polymer guns are precise enough.
NorthDakota
12-29-12, 21:12
For what its worth, I personally witnessed on 4 seperate occassions, DJ Niner from GlockTalk a 12 oz pop (soda) can at 100 yds, first shot, unsupported using Weaver stance.
Glock 32 on 1 occassion.
Glock 17 with grip chopped to Glock 19 on the other 3.
Everything was stock on them.
I personally do best with the PPQ. I shoot the 1911 worst on account of my large hands and long fingers...perspective, the Glock 20SF feels just right in my hands. I get slide bite from the Glock 17.
If only 1911's were thicker;)
It's all user error when it comes to fighting.
In a fighting gun I'd take my G34 or G19 any day of the week. Period.
Lots of bullets, they never jam, and no safety to worry about. I love my TRP but in dusty, sandy environments if you don't have time to clean your gear religiously a Glock will keep ticking away forever.
Plus, my G34 is plenty accurate. It's easily as accurate as my 1911.
Magic_Salad0892
12-30-12, 04:50
Gen4 Glocks, Walther, HK, and FN would like to have a word with you.
Also, a modified M&P is extremely viable as well.
When I first got into pistol training classes, my main weapon of choice was a WC CQB. Fantastic gun and it served me well for thousand and thousands of rounds fired.
As good as my 1911 was, it was STILL the king of the feed way stoppage. It also ONLY carried 7 or 8rds. It was also heavy, required a lot more maintenance/attention than many of the other modern polymer pistols.
I then moved to Glock's and M&P's. The triggers sucked in comparison, accuracy wasn't near the same either. I stuck with it for YEARS and I know can shoot them as well as I did my 1911. As I have said many times on this forum, LEARNING to shoot on a 1911 is a huge error as the trigger is a crutch and hinders you from being able to "easily" transition to a real combat trigger (Glock, etc).
Make no mistake, I am a huge 1911 fan (own two $3K+ 1911's and am building two of my own from scratch). A wise man (that was also a 1911 aficionado) said to me; "Do you want more bullets in the gun or less bullets?"
My advice is to get a PPQ/HK/Glock or an M&P (with a fitted barrel) and learn to shoot a polymer gun (as they make a much more reliable carry/defensive gun).
C4
Failure2Stop
12-30-12, 09:21
It isn't the gun, its your trigger control.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I've been using a Glock for that last few years and I really can't complain about much, the trigger was my biggest issue, but I'm accustomed to it now and it's no big deal, it's accurate as well.
I've used a 1911 more than anything else and I will always be a fan of the man gun.
Good for you. You have a good one. Now take the 3 different S&W weapons I have,and realize the wide variation in precision in each. I had hoped to get one as precise as yours, I did not. Now I have to deal with S&W warranty service to try to get one more precise.
Go buy 3 more yourself, and see how precise each one is.
How can you expect to compare a $1k gun to a $500 gun? No accuracy issues with mine. But I do understand that's not always the case.
And for what it's worth you can buy 3 kimbers and find 2 that don't feed.
All that being said, I'm a huge fan of 1911's. I love shooting both 1911's and my m&p . Comparing the 2 is a real stretch unless you have an equal amount of money invested.
.
I don't own an M&P but if you open up a glock and check out how the trigger stuff interacts you can polish up the stuff that rubs and really make your glock shoot much nicer. It'll make the trigger, especially if you've got the lighter trigger stuff that comes with the G34 perform much better. Best part it's basically free.
Magic_Salad0892
12-30-12, 14:54
My advice is to get a PPQ/HK/Glock or an M&P (with a fitted barrel) and learn to shoot a polymer gun (as they make a much more reliable carry/defensive gun).
Me, and I think many others on this board would also advocate flipping a few parts on a Glock. Extractor, and sights, mainly.
There is something to be said about giving yourself enough time to get used to a new platform (ie trigger, ergo, etc). Often times bad habits are masked.
Here are some 4 round shot groups (WWB 115gr) standing unsupported from a FS M&P 9 with factory threaded barrel and APEX DCAEK (Mar 12 test fire date). I shoot my Glocks just as well with "." or "-" connector installed depending on which Generation I am shooting.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/31/ujy5uba7.jpg
Cincinnatus
12-30-12, 15:30
Me, and I think many others on this board would also advocate flipping a few parts on a Glock. Extractor, and sights, mainly.
And a Vickers extended Mag Release. ;)
StrikerFired
12-30-12, 19:15
Hey, whatever you shoot well... I wasn't any good with my 1911 platform pistol so I sold it. I am much better with my G17 and my ATEi worked over M&P's
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-31-12, 14:56
I still believe the 1911 is by far the easiest pistol to shoot well outside of .22 target pistols. For years and years most of my practice was with DA/SA pistols like the SIG and HK USPs. Then I started fooling with 1911s which I had hated for years because of their heft and unreliability--then I got my hands on a reliable one. To this day I believe the same man who actually tries will shoot more accurately with a 1911 under pressure.
That being said, I carry a J-frame which may be the worst possible combination of trigger, weight, shape, etc for shooting because ultimately it is about having a gun with you more than absolute mechanical precision, power and/or capacity.
Magic_Salad0892
12-31-12, 15:10
I still believe the 1911 is by far the easiest pistol to shoot well outside of .22 target pistols. For years and years most of my practice was with DA/SA pistols like the SIG and HK USPs. Then I started fooling with 1911s which I had hated for years because of their heft and unreliability--then I got my hands on a reliable one. To this day I believe the same man who actually tries will shoot more accurately with a 1911 under pressure.
That being said, I carry a J-frame which may be the worst possible combination of trigger, weight, shape, etc for shooting because ultimately it is about having a gun with you more than absolute mechanical precision, power and/or capacity.
I'm 99% in agreement with you. I personally do shoot a G19 better than a 1911 under time constraints, and awkward positions than I do a 1911, due to length of the gun, and recoil. (It could also be due to the trigger. I think I have more consistent cadence with a longer slightly heavier trigger.)
Larry Vickers
12-31-12, 19:16
When you get a chance try a Walther PPQ - it has a great trigger for a polymer striker fired pistol and is very accurate
Add to that reliability and you have a gun that brings a lot to the table right out of the box
It might change your perspective on polymer handguns
wetidlerjr
12-31-12, 19:41
When you get a chance try a Walther PPQ - it has a great trigger for a polymer striker fired pistol and is very accurate. Add to that reliability and you have a gun that brings a lot to the table right out of the box
It might change your perspective on polymer handguns
You will have to excuse me but I'm afraid I'm too old to change my perspective on polymer handguns. In July 1966 at Edson Range (MCB Camp Pendleton) the 1911 got my attention and I don't think it will lose it anytime soon. YMMV
xjustintimex
12-31-12, 20:29
My g34 is just as accurate as my 1911
I'm 99% in agreement with you. I personally do shoot a G19 better than a 1911 under time constraints, and awkward positions than I do a 1911, due to length of the gun, and recoil. (It could also be due to the trigger. I think I have more consistent cadence with a longer slightly heavier trigger.)
The G19 is one of those magic pistols. They fit my hand so well, especially with some basic grip mods...
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f296/madryan/IMG_3151.jpg
Cincinnatus
12-31-12, 21:42
When you get a chance try a Walther PPQ - it has a great trigger for a polymer striker fired pistol and is very accurate
Add to that reliability and you have a gun that brings a lot to the table right out of the box
It might change your perspective on polymer handguns
I could not agree more. G19 (Austrian)size, German engineering, and Utah (J. M. Browning) accuracy.
wetidlerjr
12-31-12, 22:10
And all this time, this is the 1911 forum. Hmmm...
Call me the smart ass on this, but why does it seem that we always want to compare this gun or that gun to the 1911? Or shall we say that companies are always trying to find something new that will rival it, yet it seems to have held its own for how many years now?
You can read articles on a new rifle cartridge where is states "almost the same as a .30-06" or "just as good as a .30-06" if you keep trying to come up with something new to compare with the old, why not stick with what worked? There are new things that come along and are better, but they should stand on their own, not try to run off another's reputation.
You will have to excuse me but I'm afraid I'm too old to change my perspective on polymer handguns. In July 1966 at Edson Range (MCB Camp Pendleton) the 1911 got my attention and I don't think it will lose it anytime soon. YMMV
I was introduced to the 1911 at Camp Lejeune in 1966, so yes, I'm an old phart. It was the first semi I ever shot & I'm still a big fan of good 1911's. I have several tupperware guns, ( Three Glocks & an HK), that I shoot well & carry on occasion. I always end up going back to my 1911's.
And yes, LAV! I can do "The Test", (10 rounds, 10 yards, 10 inch circle, in 10 seconds, with a reload), with my TRP. It's a good drill with a Glock, but it's a bit more difficult with a 1911 because after you change mags, you still need to get 2 more shots on target.
Call me the smart ass on this, but why does it seem that we always want to compare this gun or that gun to the 1911? Or shall we say that companies are always trying to find something new that will rival it, yet it seems to have held its own for how many years now?
You can read articles on a new rifle cartridge where is states "almost the same as a .30-06" or "just as good as a .30-06" if you keep trying to come up with something new to compare with the old, why not stick with what worked? There are new things that come along and are better, but they should stand on their own, not try to run off another's reputation.
My Glock 19 is alot easier to carry around than my full size 1911 and I'm really not comfortable with anything but a full size 1911 reliability wise.
decodeddiesel
01-06-13, 13:45
I really like the M&P pistols with the Apex FSS kit and thumb safety. I think they offer the shortest "learning curve" going from a 1911 to a polymer gun.
I've never found anything that fits my hand like a 1911. It feels like an extension of my arm.
On the other hand, glocks (to some extent) and FN pistols (worst offenders IMO) feel like holding a plastic brick. I owned an M&P for a while and it was comfortable and accuracy was serviceable, but it didn't do it for me like a 1911. Even for carry, I opt for an alloy framed commander 1911.
wetidlerjr
01-06-13, 15:40
The Glock (along with all polymer handguns) has no soul.
The Glock (along with all polymer handguns) has no soul.
Reminds me of the motorcycle debate.
I've ridden most of my life it seems. I sold last two bikes, an '08 Kawasaki ZX-10 and an '08 Ducati Monster 696 when I became the sole parent of my Son.
However, there's a saying...
Other bikes transport people... Ducati's transport souls.
Having owned a gaggle of bikes I can attest to this.
decodeddiesel
01-07-13, 02:43
On the other hand, glocks (to some extent) and FN pistols (worst offenders IMO) feel like holding a plastic brick. I owned an M&P for a while and it was comfortable and accuracy was serviceable, but it didn't do it for me like a 1911. Even for carry, I opt for an alloy framed commander 1911.
Yeah, I hear you. The only polymer guns that seem to "do it for me" in that regard are HK45s and P30s. However I carry an M&P9C daily with some customizations for a number of reasons.
From a practical aspect, I tend to be hard on carry guns. I carry them and shoot them a lot, and I find 1911s tend to not hold up to this as well as the polymer guns do. I would cry a little practicing one handed manipulations cocking the pistol off of the heel of my shoe with a $2800 Nighthawk or something similar. This is something I wouldn't think twice about doing with my M&P and it something I try to practice regularly.
Similarly, say I was involved in a self defense shooting. I could assume the gun will be tossed in the gravel or onto the concrete, then placed in a bag in an evidence room for a good 6 months to a year. I have no doubts the M&P would be totally fine in this process. How about a carbon steel 1911? Even with a nifty bake-on finish, I would hate to think what could happen to a 1911 sealed in a plastic bag in a damp environment. Of course, if one shot another person I would think a damaged firearm would be the last of one's worries.
I guess in the end, I almost look at 1911s as toys, or investments. I enjoy them very much, and would trust a good one that ran properly with my life. I love carrying one, and love shooting them more.
However, I view a "soul-less" polymer pistol as a "cheap" tool.
Johnny Rico
01-07-13, 12:24
As I have said many times on this forum, LEARNING to shoot on a 1911 is a huge error as the trigger is a crutch and hinders you from being able to "easily" transition to a real combat trigger (Glock, etc).
Is the 1911 trigger a crutch? Probably. Here's the rub. I like guns, but I'm not a collector. I only own 7 guns, and two of those are spares. Two others are .22lr -- one a rifle and the other a pistol -- that I use to practice marksmanship and to teach others. That means that my guns serve multiple purposes. In my specific case, my guns are used both for defense and for sporting purposes. I like shooting and my 1911s, along with my ARs, are some of the easiest and most pleasurable guns to use. Can I shoot other guns well? Sure, though it takes a lot more effort and concentration on my part. Normally not a problem, but as I mentioned earlier I like to shoot for fun. No pistol is more enjoyable to me to use than the 1911.
There are other factors to consider. The ammo capacity of the 1911 isn't a huge problem as my state limits private ownership of magazines to ten rounders. CMC makes a ten round PowerMag for the 1911. Even if I was limited to 7+1 or 8+1, I like my chances better with a .45 1911 than I do with some 10-round 9mm that I don't shoot as well.
Then there is the weight issue. That might be a problem if I had a CCW, but it is nigh impossible to get a permit in my county. My 1911 is strictly a nightstand gun, and in that role it gets the job done.
Besides, I already have 1911s. I could always get a Glock for training purposes and to familiarize myself with what is a nearly ubiquitous platform, but I'm trying to cultivate a "run what ya brung" mentality and work on my skills, rather than accumulate a bunch of guns that will hardly get shot.
Is the 1911 trigger a crutch? Probably. Here's the rub. I like guns, but I'm not a collector. I only own 7 guns, and two of those are spares. Two others are .22lr -- one a rifle and the other a pistol -- that I use to practice marksmanship and to teach others. That means that my guns serve multiple purposes. In my specific case, my guns are used both for defense and for sporting purposes. I like shooting and my 1911s, along with my ARs, are some of the easiest and most pleasurable guns to use. Can I shoot other guns well? Sure, though it takes a lot more effort and concentration on my part. Normally not a problem, but as I mentioned earlier I like to shoot for fun. No pistol is more enjoyable to me to use than the 1911.
There are other factors to consider. The ammo capacity of the 1911 isn't a huge problem as my state limits private ownership of magazines to ten rounders. CMC makes a ten round PowerMag for the 1911. Even if I was limited to 7+1 or 8+1, I like my chances better with a .45 1911 than I do with some 10-round 9mm that I don't shoot as well.
Then there is the weight issue. That might be a problem if I had a CCW, but it is nigh impossible to get a permit in my county. My 1911 is strictly a nightstand gun, and in that role it gets the job done.
Besides, I already have 1911s. I could always get a Glock for training purposes and to familiarize myself with what is a nearly ubiquitous platform, but I'm trying to cultivate a "run what ya brung" mentality and work on my skills, rather than accumulate a bunch of guns that will hardly get shot.
I understand you like the 1911 (many of us do). Recognize that there are more RELIABLE guns out there (especially when running 10rd mags). Shooting a 1911 is child’s play compared to shooting an HK, M&P, Glock, SIG, etc well.
C4
Johnny Rico
01-07-13, 13:43
Understood. And agreed. But as an Everyman, the 1911 works for me in my circumstances. That's not to say that it's the right choice for everybody. That's the nice thing about personal weapons, they're personal. Each man is free to choose the weapon that best suits his needs. He's not forced to make due with a one-sized fits all weapon like the M9 or limited to an approved list of guns as LEOs are.
Understood. And agreed. But as an Everyman, the 1911 works for me in my circumstances. That's not to say that it's the right choice for everybody. That's the nice thing about personal weapons, they're personal. Each man is free to choose the weapon that best suits his needs. He's not forced to make due with a one-sized fits all weapon like the M9 or limited to an approved list of guns as LEOs are.
This will sound rude and isn't directed at you, but will say it anyway. Most people purchase firearms on emotion, peer pressure or how it "feels" in their hand. They have had ZERO firearms training and really have no idea what they are even looking at. They don't know if the gun is reliable, requires a lot of end user maintenance or how to even properly operate said weapon. Basically, they don't know what they don't know.
With this in mind, the 1911 (IMHO) is a HORRIBLE choice for a novice pistol buyer.
A famous firearms instructor once said to me that the majority of soldiers should be issued Glock's and AK's (not M9's and M16/M4's). The reason is because they needed a dumbed down weapon that did not require as many PM's, cleaning, etc. This thought process also extends to most Civy's.
C4
theblackknight
01-07-13, 16:49
The Glock (along with all polymer handguns) has no soul.
This comment is why 1911 guys need a 2nd hobby. Oh wait, the 1911 wont allow that.
Johnny Rico
01-07-13, 16:54
Again agreed. Sadly your post does apply to me. I have had zero firearms training, inexcusable really since Louis Awerbuck holds classes regularly not that far from here. No good reason, I just haven't made the time for it.
About the only thing I did right is buying .22lrs for my first handgun and rifle. I figured that a gun was nothing but an expensive and dangerous noisemaker if I couldn't hit what I was aiming at. I bought the .22s because I knew that I would never be able to shoot as much as I want and improve my marksmanship without them.
That said, since I already own ARs and 1911s, I think I'm better served mastering what I have rather than spending more money on different platforms. A new Glock and AK will pay for two of Louis' classes. And I guess I'm one of the weird ones, I don't mind learning about and maintaining my weapons. I spent a few hours this past weekend cleaning and inspecting my guns for no other reason than I think it's a good way to start the New Year.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
wetidlerjr
01-07-13, 16:57
This comment is why 1911 guys need a 2nd hobby. Oh wait, the 1911 wont allow that.
:jester:
ETA: My second hobby is EBRs.
decodeddiesel
01-07-13, 17:50
With this in mind, the 1911 (IMHO) is a HORRIBLE choice for a novice pistol buyer.
C4
I think that sums it all up well.
In addition to holsters, magazines, and caliber specific cleaning supplies any serious 1911 owner needs to own the tools (not to mention the know how) to keep these pistols up and running.
I know for me a 1911 armorer's course is on my very short list of training I would like to participate in ASAP. I feel like I need this training before I would feel confident I could keep a 1911 running on a high tempo firing schedule and still have 100% confidence in the pistol for daily carry.
This is coming from someone who used to be an infantry company armorer in the 101st Airborne, and has a degree in mechanical engineering.
Again agreed. Sadly your post does apply to me. I have had zero firearms training, inexcusable really since Louis Awerbuck holds classes regularly not that far from here. No good reason, I just haven't made the time for it.
About the only thing I did right is buying .22lrs for my first handgun and rifle. I figured that a gun was nothing but an expensive and dangerous noisemaker if I couldn't hit what I was aiming at. I bought the .22s because I knew that I would never be able to shoot as much as I want and improve my marksmanship without them.
That said, since I already own ARs and 1911s, I think I'm better served mastering what I have rather than spending more money on different platforms. A new Glock and AK will pay for two of Louis' classes. And I guess I'm one of the weird ones, I don't mind learning about and maintaining my weapons. I spent a few hours this past weekend cleaning and inspecting my guns for no other reason than I think it's a good way to start the New Year.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Since you are already in deep, keep what you got and learn how to use it (training).
C4
I don't have a problem learning about and maintaining my weapons, but there is a limit to how much time I'm willing to put into something to make it work. When it came to my 1911s, I reached that limit 18 months ago or so, when I had my primary carry gun and its training clone go tits up at the same time.
My then-primary is okay now (simple fix, I had to replace the plunger tube internals), but I could never get the trainer to run, or even a firm handle on why it was behaving so oddly. It was a Springfield I bought new, and it functioned fine in my initial testing except it had a rough chamber which I polished. About 1200 rounds in, it started smashing the spent case of the last round in the mag back into the magazine feed lips, very consistently, like 80% of the time. No matter what adjustments I made to the gun (including replacing parts) I couldn't get it to run. So I dumped it for a pittance, with full disclosure.
Approximately at the same time, my 9mm STI started failing to lock back no matter what ammo I used (it had never liked lighter loads like WWB), a 4" Kimber 45 (flawless for about 3000 rounds with proper maintenance) started having premature lockback with exceptional consistency which required a Wilson hardcore slide stop and new plunger internals to fix...
So, after spending about 2 months of my training time and a shitload of time and money (mostly on ammo, testing the guns), I just said **** it. I started carrying a Glock year round instead of just in winter (thumb safety + winter gloves = no fun when you're in a hurry), sold all but one 1911, and haven't regretted it since.
I have owned, oh, 16-17 1911s in the past eight years, ranging from as cheap as you can go to top shelf. So, I get the appeal. I will probably never shoot anything else as well as I can shoot an STI 2011 9mm 4.25" gun. But I own my guns as tools, and I need my tools to perform with a minimum of fuss. Maybe my plastic guns don't have any soul, but they all work, every time. That's rather important to me.
I don't have a problem learning about and maintaining my weapons, but there is a limit to how much time I'm willing to put into something to make it work. When it came to my 1911s, I reached that limit 18 months ago or so, when I had my primary carry gun and its training clone go tits up at the same time.
My then-primary is okay now (simple fix, I had to replace the plunger tube internals), but I could never get the trainer to run, or even a firm handle on why it was behaving so oddly. It was a Springfield I bought new, and it functioned fine in my initial testing except it had a rough chamber which I polished. About 1200 rounds in, it started smashing the spent case of the last round in the mag back into the magazine feed lips, very consistently, like 80% of the time. No matter what adjustments I made to the gun (including replacing parts) I couldn't get it to run. So I dumped it for a pittance, with full disclosure.
Approximately at the same time, my 9mm STI started failing to lock back no matter what ammo I used (it had never liked lighter loads like WWB), a 4" Kimber 45 (flawless for about 3000 rounds with proper maintenance) started having premature lockback with exceptional consistency which required a Wilson hardcore slide stop and new plunger internals to fix...
So, after spending about 2 months of my training time and a shitload of time and money (mostly on ammo, testing the guns), I just said **** it. I started carrying a Glock year round instead of just in winter (thumb safety + winter gloves = no fun when you're in a hurry), sold all but one 1911, and haven't regretted it since.
I have owned, oh, 16-17 1911s in the past eight years, ranging from as cheap as you can go to top shelf. So, I get the appeal. I will probably never shoot anything else as well as I can shoot an STI 2011 9mm 4.25" gun. But I own my guns as tools, and I need my tools to perform with a minimum of fuss. Maybe my plastic guns don't have any soul, but they all work, every time. That's rather important to me.
LOL. Your post made me think about what Hackathorn and Vickers said in their 1911 "familiarization" classes (where we took everything out of the gun). I think they referred to it as "Glock Appreciation Day." :sarcastic:
C4
The only time 1911s can be a bear is when you have a bushingless barrel setup, like my CQB Tac LE shown in the pics. This can be a bit of a chore - especially depending on what # your mainspring is. But a normal bushing setup 1911 is pretty dang quick (first 1911 I had I did almost send the bushing through my eye socket, lol. It literally stuck in the ceiling.) Is it as fast as breaking down an HK or M9, no. I suppose, if it came down to a hairy situation, in the field, it could be a problem, and that's obviously why the M9s exist now. But for non-extended combat situations, I would trust my 1911s with my life.
Grant do you have any bushingless CQBs?
ETA - I really hate it when ImageShack rotates pictures automatically.
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4305/005swu.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6706/001szt.jpg
The only time 1911s can be a bear is when you have a bushingless barrel setup, like my CQB Tac LE shown in the pics. This can be a bit of a chore - especially depending on what # your mainspring is. But a normal bushing setup 1911 is pretty dang quick (first 1911 I had I did almost send the bushing through my eye socket, lol. It literally stuck in the ceiling.) Is it as fast as breaking down an HK or M9, no. I suppose, if it came down to a hairy situation, in the field, it could be a problem, and that's obviously why the M9s exist now. But for non-extended combat situations, I would trust my 1911s with my life.
Grant do you have any bushingless CQBs?
ETA - I really hate it when ImageShack rotates pictures automatically.
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4305/005swu.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6706/001szt.jpg
No, the time 1911s are a bear is when they're built wrong at the factory. It is my belief that most factory guns fall into that category. The 1911 is a very precise design, and it requires a lot of skill and time to build one correctly. Manufacturers necessarily have to make many compromises to meet price points, and it doesn't matter that they cut corners in most cases because most 1911 owners will never shoot their guns enough to run into problems.
I could give a long monologue on what I think is wrong with mass market 1911s, but I'll save it for another time. What it comes down to is IMO the least expensive production 1911 worth buying is a Springfield Professional, if you want a gun that is most likely going to work as it should, without cascading failures at 3000 rounds or so.
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As far as that bushingless, no-FLGR Wilson, is there some clever takedown tool associated with it, or is it as difficult to work with as it looks like?
The only time 1911s can be a bear is when you have a bushingless barrel setup, like my CQB Tac LE shown in the pics. This can be a bit of a chore - especially depending on what # your mainspring is. But a normal bushing setup 1911 is pretty dang quick (first 1911 I had I did almost send the bushing through my eye socket, lol. It literally stuck in the ceiling.) Is it as fast as breaking down an HK or M9, no. I suppose, if it came down to a hairy situation, in the field, it could be a problem, and that's obviously why the M9s exist now. But for non-extended combat situations, I would trust my 1911s with my life.
Grant do you have any bushingless CQBs?
ETA - I really hate it when ImageShack rotates pictures automatically.
I have 1911's with and without bushings.
C4
LOL. Your post made me think about what Hackathorn and Vickers said in their 1911 "familiarization" classes (where we took everything out of the gun). I think they referred to it as "Glock Appreciation Day." :sarcastic:
C4
Yeah no kidding. I kinda wish I could go back to 2005 or so and smack myself for not learning my lesson with my first 1911, a truly piece-of-shit Para Ordnance SSP. It's been an expensive journey of self discovery, that's for sure.
But, I should note that my decision to walk away from the 1911 platform closely followed my conscious decision to stop being a gun owner and collector with thirty guns who went pistol shooting like five times a year to a shooter, doing SIRT or dry fire practice daily and live fire every week, with clear performance goals and a training schedule designed to get there. Running drills that include slidelock reloads on a regular basis was eye opening, to say the least.
Given what I demand of my pistols, I think it's unlikely that I'll ever go back to a 1911 for non-competition use. I have a few custom builds in mind, but they'd ultimately be expensive toys, and as such they're far down the road. There's nothing a custom 1911 can do for me that I can't get for 15-35% of the cost from a different gun, and I can think of a dozen high dollar projects that would have much greater utility.
As far as that bushingless, no-FLGR Wilson, is there some clever takedown tool associated with it, or is it as difficult to work with as it looks like?
No tool. Just you and some sweat. What is crazy is when you have to put an even stiffer spring in there. WC told me in order to shoot +Ps through it, I really should think about going from a 17# to an 18# spring. So I drank the Koolaid and bought an 18# spring. Holy crap. It's work getting the gun back together with the stock 17#er. It was darn near impossible with a brand new, stiff 18# spring. Ridiculous, in fact. Another issue is the slide stop opening in the slide is machined SO tightly that the slide has to be lined up in the EXACT right spot (we're talking a hundredth or two, no joke) to pull out the slide stop or get it in.
You'll find the Compact guns usually have FLGR setups, and without owning one, I would imagine the springs to be even stiffer in those. I'm probably blowing it out of porportion here, but anybody that uses an 18# spring (or heavier) with a FLGR gun, knows exactly what I'm talking about.
Anyways, I kinda derailed the thread.
When I first got into pistol training classes, my main weapon of choice was a WC CQB. Fantastic gun and it served me well for thousand and thousands of rounds fired.
As good as my 1911 was, it was STILL the king of the feed way stoppage. It also ONLY carried 7 or 8rds. It was also heavy, required a lot more maintenance/attention than many of the other modern polymer pistols.
I then moved to Glock's and M&P's. The triggers sucked in comparison, accuracy wasn't near the same either. I stuck with it for YEARS and I know can shoot them as well as I did my 1911. As I have said many times on this forum, LEARNING to shoot on a 1911 is a huge error as the trigger is a crutch and hinders you from being able to "easily" transition to a real combat trigger (Glock, etc).
Make no mistake, I am a huge 1911 fan (own two $3K+ 1911's and am building two of my own from scratch). A wise man (that was also a 1911 aficionado) said to me; "Do you want more bullets in the gun or less bullets?"
My advice is to get a PPQ/HK/Glock or an M&P (with a fitted barrel) and learn to shoot a polymer gun (as they make a much more reliable carry/defensive gun).
C4
It isn't the gun, its your trigger control.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
/Thread IMHO. Comparing SA triggers of any variety to a striker fired polymer gun trigger is not the same comparison...
wetidlerjr
01-08-13, 16:35
I have resisted this urge as long as I can.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/wetidlerjr/Colt%201911/GLOCK_vs_1911.jpg
Forgive me for my lack of self-control.
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