View Full Version : Food for thought.....
Larry Vickers
12-28-12, 21:34
It is estimated there is about 300 million firearms in the U.S.A.
Let's just say for arguments sake that 10% of those are 'assault rifles' that would be directly affected by any ban imposed ; 20 years ago that number percentage would probably have been much lower but now with the popularity of that AR in this country 10% is probably being conservative but let's just say 10% for this example
That is 30 million firearms
Now let's say for every 'assault rilfe' there is 10 high capacity magazines - once again that is surely a low ball estimate but for the sake of this argument hear me out - that is 300 million magazines
Any idea of putting 30 million firearms on the NFA roster and trying to limit the transfer or selling of 300 million magazines is pure insanity
Frankly any politician seriously pushing for such an agenda should be removed from elected office immediately as any human being who thinks such a thing is feasible has no business being a representative in our federal government
Like I said; food for thought
Belmont31R
12-28-12, 21:41
She is from California....what else would you expect? I grew up there, and they are the same crew who require a waiting period even if you have a safe full of guns already.
It's also humorous because ATF officials have admitted under oath in court the present NFA registry has errors, and missing records of registered firearms. If you submitted an application, today, for something like a SBR it would take 6 months or more to get approved, and she thinks millions of semi-auto firearms can be added. :rolleyes:
Oh don't worry, the ban will affect much more than just "assault rifles".
That is why this is so scary.
It is so beyond the realm of reason that it WILL probably be passed.
We all know politicians EXIST to **** things up by way of complete and utter lack of logic and reason...
she thinks millions of semi-auto firearms can be added. :rolleyes:
But they Just hired 9 more examiners..........:dirol:
I bet if you gathered 10 basic firearms related questions, put them in multiple choice test questions, none of the so called law makers would pass the test.
I just watched a video of an LA County gun buy back program and there was a law enforcement officer with 4 stars on his shoulder holding a Tec9 with the absolute poorest gun handling skills that I have ever seen. Just goes to show the mentality of the sheeple that are "in charge".
The people "in charge" are telling the people who are following them that, "the bill is to big to read", and. "we just have to pass it to find out what's in it". Now that, by itself, is pretty damn bad.
The flip side, that those "people in charge" are counting on, is that 1/2 of the voting population ate that bullshit up with a spoon and a biscuit.
BufordTJustice
12-28-12, 22:22
The people "in charge" are telling the people who are following them that, "the bill is to big to read", and. "we just have to pass it to find out what's in it". Now that, by itself, is pretty damn bad.
The flip side, that those "people in charge" are counting on, is that 1/2 of the voting population ate that bullshit up with a spoon and a biscuit.
This made me laugh my ass off. AND you're right.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Moose-Knuckle
12-28-12, 23:35
It is insanity, but that won't stop them. They wont stop until they have unarmed serfs.
The socialists have won victory after victory. They have built up momentum. They have beaten freedom lovers to the ground, bloodied and cold. But that's not enough; they want to close in for the kill and go for the throat.
And the few true conservatives in the house are trying to hold the Alamo against the onslaught.
Said like a rational human being who was taught from an early age to think and analyze information before making a decision. Unfortunately, the current generation was not taught such important things, having been asked to leave college classes because I was outspoken and pro-gun I can say that a good portion if not majority of the education, more so higher education, systems are not looking for people to learn to think for themselves, but for people who can follow orders and do as they are told because it is for their own good and if not because "I told you so!" It is a very sad position, and I fear for those who believe in the foundation of this country and the ideas that it was founded upon, and even more for those who are willing to die for those principles. Even when those principles may not be things we support those of us who still support them because they are pillars that this country was founded upon.
sinlessorrow
12-29-12, 01:11
She is from California....what else would you expect? I grew up there, and they are the same crew who require a waiting period even if you have a safe full of guns already.
It's also humorous because ATF officials have admitted under oath in court the present NFA registry has errors, and missing records of registered firearms. If you submitted an application, today, for something like a SBR it would take 6 months or more to get approved, and she thinks millions of semi-auto firearms can be added. :rolleyes:
Yep Californians are crazy.
Larry is right as to the effectiveness of a ban. But there won't be one. It's mathematically unlikely and politically costly.
Feinstein never put forth a price tag for her pet legislation. Yes, it would cost tens of millions to accomplish. Rather than implement a more effective strategy of placing police officers in schools? Which would end up being cheaper in the long run? Especially considering that even with her ban in place there will still be crazy people with access to the same firearms as before for the foreseeable future? Yep.
Won't pass. This just more partisan crap. It'll be used as a blunt instrument to bash Republicans in Congress for a lack of action. Kinda disgusting, really. Draft legislation that they know won't pass, hell, that they KNOW is probably unconstitutional, and then use that as a political weapons to say "See, we tried to save the children from the guns! The Republicans hate the children!" Sigh.... Those same politicians will scream "But, States Rights!!!!" for a cherry picked cause du jour, but go silent when they want the big bad Federal govt. to stomp our rights when it comes to the Second Amendment. :rolleyes:
They're swinging for the fences and will be happy with what they get this go around. Why? Cause they'll be back and keep gaining ground piece by piece. They're fighting a long term war and we're caught up fighting skirmishes and battles.
We've been on the ropes since 1934 with the NFA, the 1968 GCA and don't forget the FOPA in 86' along with myriad other unconstitutional gun laws.
We were warned by our founding fathers and were told to never give up our freedoms and our guns by men who were resolute in their convictions and generations have failed to heed their words. Now we're paying the consequences for our forefathers inaction and ignoring their call to duty.
The anti-gun people are on a crusade to eliminate guns and take away your rights. Why aren't we doing everything we can to have these unconstitutional laws repealed and regain our freedom?
Belmont31R
12-29-12, 01:37
They're swinging for the fences and will be happy with what they get this go around. Why? Cause they'll be back and keep gaining ground piece by piece. They're fighting a long term war and we're caught up fighting skirmishes and battles.
We've been on the ropes since 1934 with the NFA, the 1968 GCA and don't forget the FOPA in 86' along with myriad other unconstitutional gun laws.
We were warned by our founding fathers and were told to never give up our freedoms and our guns by men who were resolute in their convictions and generations have failed to heed their words. Now we're paying the consequences for our forefathers inaction and ignoring their call to duty.
The anti-gun people are on a crusade to eliminate guns and take away your rights. Why aren't we doing everything we can to have these unconstitutional laws repealed and regain our freedom?
Well the positive side of her swinging for the fences is it might just rattle up a few guys outside of the AR/AK world.
Been to a few gun stores and the one I went to today had a single pump action left on the wall. Far worse than the 08 scare. Lets hope the next presidential election we can elect a small government liberty Republican and not the usual RINO country club that puts off base supporters.
Said like a rational human being who was taught from an early age to think and analyze information before making a decision. Unfortunately, the current generation was not taught such important things, having been asked to leave college classes because I was outspoken and pro-gun I can say that a good portion if not majority of the education, more so higher education, systems are not looking for people to learn to think for themselves, but for people who can follow orders and do as they are told because it is for their own good and if not because "I told you so!" It is a very sad position, and I fear for those who believe in the foundation of this country and the ideas that it was founded upon, and even more for those who are willing to die for those principles. Even when those principles may not be things we support those of us who still support them because they are pillars that this country was founded upon.
I know what you mean. As a member of this generation I am disgusted by my peers. So many of them are just worthless - caught up in ****ing retarded MTV shows and care about nothing bigger than themselves. Seeing my girlfriend's siblings having absolutely no respect for anyone else pisses me off to no end and they're really opening my eyes to problems with my generation (she's the complete opposite btw). I don't know if its always been like this but just in a different way, but I feel like so much of the population needs to get smoked in the face so they at least care about something meaningful. That being said, so many of us need to do a better job of holding our elected "representatives" accountable because no one does. I don't know much about politics and politicians but damn near everything I learn is a disgrace to what I once thought this country was. The fact that laws are based off of a "sporting purpose" is complete and utter bullshit. Nobody I talk to realizes that that "piece of paper written 200 years ago" (quoted from a highschool classmate that I was debating with, note that the school was in CA...) was conceived to protect the citizens from the government, that's what it's all about. I wish I had explained to him that freedom isn't outdated... Problem is, no one thinks the government is getting too powerful until masses of people disappearing becomes an everyday occurrence and they think it could never happen in the USA in these modern times.
I lost my train of thought for the rant, but, to summarize: this is stupid and she, along with many others need to be put in their place.
Maybe I'm just naive and idealistic. I haven't seen it in a long time, but I kind of want to go watch "V for Vendetta."
ETA - point proven in the first comment on this article posted in another thread: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/comments/idUSBRE8BS00L20121229?page=1#comment0
Animal_Mother556
12-29-12, 03:39
I am actually really lucky. If they did pass something that forced all assault weapons to be registered, I wouldn't have to worry about doing all of that paperwork. Yesterday, I lost ALL of my firearms in a tragic boating accident. They are all at the bottom of the Mississippi.
Reagans Rascals
12-29-12, 03:50
I faintly remember a little town called Lexington, some 238 years ago, on a warm spring morning just before sunrise, and for some reason I faintly recall similar circumstances regarding the civilian ownership of firearms brewing that morning..... but I just can't for the life of me remember how that turned out...:sarcastic:
Larry,
They know what they are doing. Throw as much shit as possible and see what sticks. They are going to use this as a hope of "guilt tripping" Republicans to vote for it. Otherwise they and the press will accuse them of being unreasonable and not caring about "our children".
Make no mistake. Dianne and her friends have been waiting patiently for a situation to arise they can exploit and now they have it. We can't rely on the media because most of them are so stupid they don't know the difference between a flash hider or a charging handle.
One need only look at the LAPD gun buyback scam that netted an empty AT-4 rocket launcher tube. Every one is getting high fives because they took a "dangerous rocket launcher" off the streets.
It doesn't help that the higher ups in many of these departments won't put the brakes on and correct anyone when they wrongly identify something or lie to the public.
There is no place for rational thought in this country anymore.
The Jellyfish will believe whatever they are told, and do whatever they are told to do. You cant wake these morons up, they've been fed a steady diet of government/liberal brainwashing, and been fed GMO/garbage food for their entire life. Both of which have probably permanently affected their mental capacity.
BTW, Jellyfish = Brainwashed, spineless, limp wristed, probably obese, bottom feeder, barely got their g.e.d., shuffle through life living off of taco bell and garbage, mentally numb, MORONS. THAT is who is in control now, "We the Jellyfish"....
It is estimated there is about 300 million firearms in the U.S.A.
Let's just say for arguments sake that 10% of those are 'assault rifles' that would be directly affected by any ban imposed ; 20 years ago that number percentage would probably have been much lower but now with the popularity of that AR in this country 10% is probably being conservative but let's just say 10% for this example
That is 30 million firearms
Now let's say for every 'assault rilfe' there is 10 high capacity magazines - once again that is surely a low ball estimate but for the sake of this argument hear me out - that is 300 million magazines
Any idea of putting 30 million firearms on the NFA roster and trying to limit the transfer or selling of 300 million magazines is pure insanity
Frankly any politician seriously pushing for such an agenda should be removed from elected office immediately as any human being who thinks such a thing is feasible has no business being a representative in our federal government
Like I said; food for thought
I believe they know this Larry. I think they WANT the govt to be flooded with the NFA paperwork. The process will be slowed down to a crawl, and I'm sure a large percent will be denied. I also think a large number of people will never even bother trying to register anything...guess what, over night millions of law-abiding citizens become criminals with illegal deadly assault weapons.
Frankly any politician seriously pushing for such an agenda should be removed from elected office immediately as any human being who thinks such a thing is feasible has no business being a representative in our federal government.
Unfortunately a non-feasible policy usually isn't problematic for politicians.
My understanding is that the NFA Branch processed 105,000 forms in 2011. If they triple the output to 300,000 per year it would take 100 years to process the 30 million semi-auto rifles affected by the proposed legislation.
If you throw in every handgun that can accept a magazine over 10 rounds it would be hundreds of years before the Gov. could complete the registrations.
I believe that creating an impossible situation is exactly what the progressives want.
Mike
VooDoo6Actual
12-29-12, 11:33
The Rubicon of reasonableness & rational logic / thought was passed long ago.
They are operating in another dimension or paradigm to attempt to change ROL to criminalize lawful citizens. It does not matter to me whether you believe it or not, as THAT IS what is transpiring before our eyes. If they can get ML imposed, all the better in their eyes.
Before you make the usual anticipated sacastic remarks consider this irony, F&F can pimp ASSault guns to known DTO's but ROL policy can dictate to lawful citizens they cannot own Semi's ....
Frogs in boiling water metaphor applies here. Reapply heat, simmer as necessary. That is why we are seeing an uptick / uptempo in "SSRI" drug related shootings.... figure it out
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/a-boot-stamping-on-a-human-face.jpg
buckshot1220
12-29-12, 11:44
BTW, Jellyfish = Brainwashed, spineless, limp wristed, probably obese, bottom feeder, barely got their g.e.d., shuffle through life living off of taco bell and garbage, mentally numb, MORONS. THAT is who is in control now, "We the Jellyfish"....
No, what is truly scary is that many of these people are "educated," and I use that term loosely, far beyond the realm of a G.E.D.
We are talking lawyers, doctors, professors, businessmen and women, POLITICIANS AND JUSTICES all of which who *should* have the capability to think logically, but fall immensely short.
This new "superignoramus" that we are stuck with is not your run of the mill stupid, we are speaking of ignorance on a never before seen level and we are breaking that record every day.
The Rubicon of reasonableness & rational logic / thought was passed long ago.
They are operating in another dimension or paradigm to attempt to change ROL to criminalize lawful citizens. It does not matter to me whether you believe it or not, as THAT IS what is transpiring before our eyes. If they can get ML imposed, all the better in their eyes.
Before you make the usual anticipated sacastic remarks consider this irony, F&F can pimp ASSault guns to known DTO's but ROL policy can dictate to lawful citizens they cannot own Semi's .... figure it out...
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/a-boot-stamping-on-a-human-face.jpg
I was absolutely certain what you wrote was typical hyperbole until you added the boot and face, but now I know it must be true.
Anyway I suggest that beyond diligent writings and even phone calls we all take a step back and realize that much of what is being discussed is based more in emotion than practicality. As time passes so will the emotion, debate will continue and in the end it won't likely be as bad as we fear now.
Of course I was also sure Romney would win, so...
The Rubicon of reasonableness & rational logic / thought was passed long ago.
They are operating in another dimension or paradigm to attempt to change ROL to criminalize lawful citizens. It does not matter to me whether you believe it or not, as THAT IS what is transpiring before our eyes. If they can get ML imposed, all the better in their eyes.
Before you make the usual anticipated sacastic remarks consider this irony, F&F can pimp ASSault guns to known DTO's but ROL policy can dictate to lawful citizens they cannot own Semi's ....
Frogs in boiling water metaphor applies here. Reapply heat, simmer as necessary. That is why we are seeing an uptick / uptempo in "SSRI" drug related shootings.... figure it out
I agree completely. The circumstances of these shootings is almost identical every time: weapons allegedly used, SSRI's, shooter usually kills himself, reports of others at the scene then suddenly the story changes and we never hear about these other people despite witness statements to the contrary and of course always in a gun-free zone in an attempt to maximize casualties. Something went wrong in Colorado and the shooter didn't kill himself or get killed.
There are witnesses to the Sikh temple shooting who made statements and insist there were four shooters, not one. In Aurora and CT, witnesses said there were two or more people involved.
I simply do not believe these events are mere happenstance; the timing and circumstances are far too convenient for the anti-gunners. Both Obama and Feinstein talked about another assault weapons ban around the election, and then mere weeks later, the terrible incident in CT.
There are many unanswered questions about the Aurora shooting and this shooting in CT, however since answering those questions would likely undermine the anti-gun efforts, or perhaps expose something we aren't supposed to know, the obfuscation, denial, lies, half-truths and propaganda will continue until they achieve their ultimate goal of a disarmed citizenry.
My rifles are not "assault rifles". They have never been used in any kind of assault. They are simply sporting arms & used in accordance with the law.
If they want to ban/sieze particular serial # rifles that were used to commit crimes, that's ok with me. But don't ban the next serial # of the same firearm which belongs to a law abiding citizen.
Submariner
12-29-12, 15:16
My rifles are not "assault rifles".
They are simply arms suitable for militia use in accordance with the law. See U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939).
Moose-Knuckle
12-29-12, 15:54
My understanding is that the NFA Branch processed 105,000 forms in 2011. If they triple the output to 300,000 per year it would take 100 years to process the 30 million semi-auto rifles affected by the proposed legislation.
If you throw in every handgun that can accept a magazine over 10 rounds it would be hundreds of years before the Gov. could complete the registrations.
I believe that creating an impossible situation is exactly what the progressives want.
Mike
Most people make the mistake of thinking our politicians are stupid, that is why everything is such a cluster f**k. Turns out most of them are intelligent and these "cluster f**ks" that arise are by design. Engines of social change as they were, if they can't bring their agenda to fruition then all they need to do is simply throw a wrench in the gears to grind things to a halt.
The Rubicon of reasonableness & rational logic / thought was passed long ago.
They are operating in another dimension or paradigm to attempt to change ROL to criminalize lawful citizens. It does not matter to me whether you believe it or not, as THAT IS what is transpiring before our eyes. If they can get ML imposed, all the better in their eyes.
Before you make the usual anticipated sacastic remarks consider this irony, F&F can pimp ASSault guns to known DTO's but ROL policy can dictate to lawful citizens they cannot own Semi's ....
Frogs in boiling water metaphor applies here. Reapply heat, simmer as necessary. That is why we are seeing an uptick / uptempo in "SSRI" drug related shootings.... figure it out
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/a-boot-stamping-on-a-human-face.jpg
Spot on. Orwell was more right than anyone ever knew . . .
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
I agree completely. The circumstances of these shootings is almost identical every time: weapons allegedly used, SSRI's, shooter usually kills himself, reports of others at the scene then suddenly the story changes and we never hear about these other people despite witness statements to the contrary and of course always in a gun-free zone in an attempt to maximize casualties. Something went wrong in Colorado and the shooter didn't kill himself or get killed.
There are witnesses to the Sikh temple shooting who made statements and insist there were four shooters, not one. In Aurora and CT, witnesses said there were two or more people involved.
I simply do not believe these events are mere happenstance; the timing and circumstances are far too convenient for the anti-gunners. Both Obama and Feinstein talked about another assault weapons ban around the election, and then mere weeks later, the terrible incident in CT.
There are many unanswered questions about the Aurora shooting and this shooting in CT, however since answering those questions would likely undermine the anti-gun efforts, or perhaps expose something we aren't supposed to know, the obfuscation, denial, lies, half-truths and propaganda will continue until they achieve their ultimate goal of a disarmed citizenry.
You’re not the only one friend; this whole debacle stinks to high hell.
we have 7-10 million firearms in Canada for 33 million people. We had firearms registration from 2004-2012....it was 2 billion dollars to run it. That could have paid for a LOT or armed officers on the street...in the end registration was pissing good money away and did NOTHING to help public safety. Tell your people to look north to learn from our stupidity lesson. and we did not register magazines.
Boltgun
...Yesterday, I lost ALL of my firearms in a tragic boating accident. They are all at the bottom of the Mississippi.
So they're under three feet of water... :p
So we now are up to three(3) references to the government tactfully plotting and executing attacks on fellow civilians via programming on this page alone and no staff or mods take issue? Everyone real busy today or is this now to be considered the norm here? And where are the other members?
Anyone who seriously believes this should be inelligible to own a firearm, period. And if such rhetoric can't be policed properly then shut this portion of the website down for now before it does even more damage to the firearm community as a whole. It's counterproductive and flat out disturbing.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-29-12, 16:40
So we now are up to three(3) references to the government tactfully plotting and executing attacks on fellow civilians via programming on this page alone and no staff or mods take issue? Everyone real busy today or is this now to be considered the norm here? And where are the other members?
Anyone who seriously believes this should be inelligible to own a firearm, period. And if such rhetoric can't be policed properly then shut this portion of the website down for now before it does even more damage to the firearm community as a whole.
Not that I give a shit about conspiracies and what not, but why exactly are you bitching and moaning?
Moose-Knuckle
12-29-12, 16:44
So we now are up to three(3) references to the government tactfully plotting and executing attacks on fellow civilians via programming on this page alone and no staff or mods take issue? Everyone real busy today or is this now to be considered the norm here? And where are the other members?
Anyone who seriously believes this should be inelligible to own a firearm, period. And if such rhetoric can't be policed properly then shut this portion of the website down for now before it does even more damage to the firearm community as a whole. It's flat out disturbing.
This from the guy who said Barry woulnd't get re-elected . . . :haha:
Not that I give a shit about conspiracies and what not, but why exactly are you bitching and moaning?
If you can't see the problem then you're part of it. Congratulations.
This from the guy who said Barry woulnd't get re-elected . . . :haha:
For what it's worth I sort of like you, but that said you simply are not fully mentally stable and an increasing part of why we have this issue here.
Last thing I wanted to do was derail a thread by the OP and I'll probably hear it, but this garbage needs to stop.
bondmid003
12-29-12, 17:19
Larry is right as to the effectiveness of a ban. But there won't be one. It's mathematically unlikely and politically costly.
Never say never man, keep up the fight
Voodoochild
12-29-12, 17:20
If it ever came down to it and we had to register every firearm and high cap mag then I would hope everyone would fill out separate forms for every weapon and mag and flood the ATF to the point of it crippling their ability to do anything.
Then sit back and watch Rome burn.
buckshot1220
12-29-12, 17:29
So we now are up to three(3) references to the government tactfully plotting and executing attacks on fellow civilians via programming on this page alone and no staff or mods take issue? Everyone real busy today or is this now to be considered the norm here? And where are the other members?
Anyone who seriously believes this should be inelligible to own a firearm, period. And if such rhetoric can't be policed properly then shut this portion of the website down for now before it does even more damage to the firearm community as a whole. It's counterproductive and flat out disturbing.
We should be keeping conspiracy theories to a completely separate thread all together, if at all on this site. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right, but publicly blaming the Fed for what is most likely media bias in reporting is sure to cause vast issues. Come on guys, lets keep on track.
I know many of us are very concerned about the proposed ban, but resorting to emotional/kneejerk responses is not the way to go about it.
Frankly any politician seriously pushing for such an agenda should be removed from elected office immediately as any human being who thinks such a thing is feasible has no business being a representative in our federal government
Obamacare isn't feasible either but we still ended up with Obamacare.
Belmont31R
12-29-12, 17:38
Anyone who seriously believes this should be inelligible to own a firearm, period. And if such rhetoric can't be policed properly then shut this portion of the website down for now before it does even more damage to the firearm community as a whole. It's counterproductive and flat out disturbing.
Nancy Pelosi...is that you? :p
John Boehner...is that you? :p
Nah, Boehner is probably touching up his tan and figuring out another way of making it seem as though he has a backbone and principles.
Belmont31R
12-29-12, 17:52
Nah, Boehner is probably touching up his tan and figuring out another way of making it seem as though he has a backbone and principles.
You're right. I edited that post for accuracy.
CarlosDJackal
12-29-12, 17:56
You really expect this to use logic?
http://www.bonzerwolf.com/storage/DiFi-gun.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1356226664784
bondmid003
12-29-12, 18:02
an old shrew with her finger on the trigger....jeez
an old shrew with her finger on the trigger....jeez
It doesn't matter with "assault rifles", remember?
They start shooting people without any human intervention whatsoever, that's why she wants to save us from them.
Well, that and the whole unarmed citizenry thing.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-29-12, 22:50
For what it's worth I sort of like you, but that said you simply are not fully mentally stable and an increasing part of why we have this issue here.
Last thing I wanted to do was derail a thread by the OP and I'll probably hear it, but this garbage needs to stop.
Is this what we have come to expect on this forum?
"You dont share my opinion, YOU ARE MENTALLY UNSTABLE!"
Agreed ^^. Some folks need to slow down on the "T" injections. Way too much bad ass & tough guy lately.
So we now are up to three(3) references to the government tactfully plotting and executing attacks on fellow civilians . . .
Anyone who seriously believes this should be inelligible to own a firearm, period.
What an ignorant and ****ing fascist thing to say. You need help
Really..... Come on.... Don't feed the trolls.
I'm not going to call anyone mentally unstable or suggest that they lose their 2nd Amendment rights. However, I do believe that any suggestion that the recent mass shootings are part of a larger conspiracy is irresponsible unless accompanied by new, extraordinary evidence. Without that evidence, I'd argue that these suggestions are counterproductive to the mission of this forum. While I appreciate the need to share ideas in GD, I'd hope that the mods would deal with these postings like they do with other unsubstantiated claims in the technical subforums.
Business_Casual
12-30-12, 10:17
I'm not going to call anyone mentally unstable or suggest that they lose their 2nd Amendment rights. However, I do believe that any suggestion that the recent mass shootings are part of a larger conspiracy is irresponsible unless accompanied by new, extraordinary evidence. Without that evidence, I'd argue that these suggestions are counterproductive to the mission of this forum. While I appreciate the need to share ideas in GD, I'd hope that the mods would deal with these postings like they do with other unsubstantiated claims in the technical subforums.
Did you miss Fast & Furious, then?
bc
How can you read Confessions of an Economic Hitman or even watch the 3 part shorts on YouTube and think anything is out of the realm of possibility when it comes to money and power?
-just sayin...
Moose-Knuckle
12-31-12, 05:20
For what it's worth I sort of like you, but that said you simply are not fully mentally stable and an increasing part of why we have this issue here.
I see . . .
So anyone who questions the extraordinary events and convenient coincidences transpiring in our time equates them to being mentally ill and further more deserves to have their constitutional rights stripped away? Talk about your knee jerk reaction or simply a case of text book COINTELPRO.
For those of you who denounce any notion of questioning our Federal government’s comings and goings then I ask of you if you can refute the evidence compiled by the United States Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, in particular MK-ULTRA.
No, what is truly scary is that many of these people are "educated," and I use that term loosely, far beyond the realm of a G.E.D.
We are talking lawyers, doctors, professors, businessmen and women, POLITICIANS AND JUSTICES all of which who *should* have the capability to think logically, but fall immensely short.
This new "superignoramus" that we are stuck with is not your run of the mill stupid, we are speaking of ignorance on a never before seen level and we are breaking that record every day.
Perhaps they should be labeled "useful intellectuals". ;)
"always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%203:1-9&version=ESV)"
This was published today. You may want to keep it on your radar. Illinois bill to ban all modern firearms. (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/robert-farago/breaking-illinois-bill-to-ban-all-modern-firearms/)
Press release:
“The ISRA has learned from a credible source that Illinois Senate President John Cullerton [above] will introduce a so called ‘assault weapons’ ban on Wednesday when the legislature returns for its ‘lame duck’ session. Cullerton hopes to ramrod the bill through and get it to Governor Quinn for signature by Friday. If he is successful at doing so, nearly every gun you currently own will be banned and will be subject to confiscation by the Illinois State Police . . .
“Based on what we know about Cullerton’s bill, firearms that would be banned include all semiautomatic rifles, pistols, and shotguns. Pump action shotguns would be banned as well. This would be a very comprehensive ban that would include not only so-called ‘assault weapons’ but also such classics as M1 Garands and 1911-based pistols. There would be no exemptions and no grandfathering. You would have a very short window to turn in your guns to the State Police to avoid prosecution.”
It is estimated there is about 300 million firearms in the U.S.A.
Let's just say for arguments sake that 10% of those are 'assault rifles' that would be directly affected by any ban imposed ; 20 years ago that number percentage would probably have been much lower but now with the popularity of that AR in this country 10% is probably being conservative but let's just say 10% for this example
That is 30 million firearms
Now let's say for every 'assault rilfe' there is 10 high capacity magazines - once again that is surely a low ball estimate but for the sake of this argument hear me out - that is 300 million magazines
Any idea of putting 30 million firearms on the NFA roster and trying to limit the transfer or selling of 300 million magazines is pure insanity
Frankly any politician seriously pushing for such an agenda should be removed from elected office immediately as any human being who thinks such a thing is feasible has no business being a representative in our federal government
Like I said; food for thought
Stupid, illogical, unfeasible and unrealistic never stopped Congress before.
I really only see two outcomes:
1. They shoot for the moon and get nothing.
2. They shoot for the moon, it passes and they get a war.
As you noted, there are simply too many people and too many of them out there. If passed it will make Prohibition look simple in terms of enforcement.
Obamacare isn't feasible either but we still ended up with Obamacare.
Remains to be seen, people haven't gotten the bill yet.
If passed it will make Prohibition look simple in terms of enforcement.
Remember, alcohol consumption was/is not a guaranteed inalienable right in the constitution. (Unless you feel that it falls under the 9th amendment, as I'm sure most do). But despite that, they needed an amendment ratified to ban it.
Firearm possession is specifically guaranteed, and they're talking about effectively banning it WITHOUT the ratification of a repeal. If by some egregious maneuver, they pass the Sweinstein bill, it'll be FAR worse than prohibition, and will go down as the worst abuse of authority in a century.
Cincinnatus
01-01-13, 23:36
I saw that the New York Times came out with an Op-ed yesterday calling for the scrapping of the Constitution altogether. The fact that the 2nd Amendment protects gun-rights is irrelevant to these swine.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/31/georgetown-law-professor-scrap-archaic-idiosyncratic-and-downright-evil-constitution/
sinlessorrow
01-01-13, 23:53
I saw that the New York Times came out with an Op-ed yesterday calling for the scrapping of the Constitution altogether. The fact that the 2nd Amendment protects gun-rights is irrelevant to these swine.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/31/georgetown-law-professor-scrap-archaic-idiosyncratic-and-downright-evil-constitution/
The guy who wrote it is the same guy who claims you cannot apply law to facts and was then quoted stating that he himself applys law to facts.....
I sent this story to Tom Woods via his FB page, asking him to please rebuke it. He just wrote me back saying he already did. Oops. (Use the f¥cking search feature). Haha! :D
http://www.tomwoods.com/blog/lets-abandon-the-constitution-says-professor/
Eta: If a group of students, or citizens in general, called for this idiot to be fired from Georgetown, what do you think one of his first defenses would likely be?
"I have 1st amendment rights. I can't be punished for speaking my mind"
:rolleyes:
brickboy240
01-02-13, 10:29
While I applaud the logical thinking here on this....aren't we applying logic to a group of people (DC politicians) that rarely ever USE logic in their decision making cycle?
I mean really....Feinstein, Schumer and the others can barely get the terminology right on what it is they want us not to have (what the hell is an "assault clip?").
So how can we expect these people to think rationally on what a logistical nightmare having to register all of one's 30rd mags?
I think we'll get a ban that looks more like the 94 ban but either way...we will get SOME sort of ban....plan for it.
-brickboy240
Business_Casual
01-02-13, 10:39
Feinstein, Schumer and the others can barely get the terminology right on what it is they want us not to have (what the hell is an "assault clip?").
That's because they are laughing at you - they are doing that on purpose.
bc
brickboy240
01-02-13, 10:45
Yep...I have a feeling they know EXACTLY what they are doing.
If they toss enough bad terminology out there to scare those that know nothing about guns and go all out....that will get them the unarmed and anemic public they so long to rule over.
They can cry all they want in public but they were waiting for an incident like this to carry forward with a plan that would not pass on a ordinary session in Congress.
It is all being done on purpose and sorry...it is not tinfoil hattery to think so anymore.
-brickboy240
Doc Safari
01-02-13, 11:40
Stupid, illogical, unfeasible and unrealistic never stopped Congress before.
I really only see two outcomes:
1. They shoot for the moon and get nothing.
2. They shoot for the moon, it passes and they get a war.
As you noted, there are simply too many people and too many of them out there. If passed it will make Prohibition look simple in terms of enforcement.
They always ask for the sun, moon, and stars hoping to end up with at least the moon when the legislation passes. This process is just STARTING. Imagine the threads that will be growing into epic-length dissertations six weeks or six months from now when a bill is actually being debated.
They know they can't pick up 30 million firearms any more than they can pick up 30 million illegal aliens.
I think when all this is over whatever they pass will affect "future purchases" and people know it. That's why they're out buying stuff up and getting it backordered until 2014.
Ironic isn't it? They want assault weapons off the streets yet they just helped sell millions more of them. :sarcastic:
This was published today. You may want to keep it on your radar. Illinois bill to ban all modern firearms. (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/robert-farago/breaking-illinois-bill-to-ban-all-modern-firearms/)
The Cook County cancer spreads and is ready to kill the host.
brickboy240
01-02-13, 17:05
Oh they THINK they can pick up 30 million firearms.
They have no interest in picking up the 30 million illegal aliens.
There in lies the difference.
-brickboy240
...with access to the same firearms as before for the foreseeable future?
The foreseeable future? You know toothless, hand-to-ass-wiping muslims manufacture firearms with chisels and hammers in places with no electricity right? I could make a Sten sub-gun at home with about $1000 in tools and materials, less if I was good with an angle grinder and a hand drill and had the time for meticulous file work. Hell, when the guns and ammo dry up, explosives are always an option. Anyone with a garden and an RC car hobby has a thousand good excuses to buy all the necessary materials. This is all a ploy. They want us to think it's about guns, and that they're just delusional. I worry that they're much, much more that stupid. I think they're actually very smart, but they're ****ing evil. Maybe not Hitler evil, but evil. They know enough peoples' eyes will glaze over when they slip up that they don't have to be careful about what they say or do.
I'm very worried they're gonna make every true patriot in this nation a felon very quickly.
Moose-Knuckle
01-02-13, 17:25
The foreseeable future? You know toothless, hand-to-ass-wiping muslims manufacture firearms with chisels and hammers in places with no electricity right? I could make a Sten sub-gun at home with about $1000 in tools and materials, less if I was good with an angle grinder and a hand drill and had the time for meticulous file work. Hell, when the guns and ammo dry up, explosives are always an option. Anyone with a garden and an RC car hobby has a thousand good excuses to buy all the necessary materials. This is all a ploy. They want us to think it's about guns, and that they're just delusional. I worry that they're much, much more that stupid. I think they're actually very smart, but they're ****ing evil. Maybe not Hitler evil, but evil. They know enough peoples' eyes will glaze over when they slip up that they don't have to be careful about what they say or do.
I'm very worried they're gonna make every true patriot in this nation a felon very quickly.
Hammer meets nail head.
Doc Safari
01-02-13, 17:26
The foreseeable future? You know toothless, hand-to-ass-wiping muslims manufacture firearms with chisels and hammers in places with no electricity right? I could make a Sten sub-gun at home with about $1000 in tools and materials, less if I was good with an angle grinder and a hand drill and had the time for meticulous file work.
A good point. People have been cranking out AK's from parts kits for years now. And what about 3-D printing? As that technology develops, you can bet someone will find a way to make full-blown functional and durable receivers. Do we make 3-D printers assault weapons? Does having a 3-D printer and and upper constitute "constructive intent"?
I'm very worried they're gonna make every true patriot in this nation a felon very quickly.
This is where I think they are not that stupid. All they need is 30 million new "criminals", who are understandably going to be less than thrilled with their new job title. At the very least it would cause a backlash that would make the Tea Party movement look like the ladies' church social.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/30/Marine-Tells-Di-Feinstein-No-Ma-am-Over-Gun-Grabbing
Well done Marine!
Belmont31R
01-03-13, 06:54
If you read the stuff from the real intellectual leftists they openly state what their goal is; wiping the Constitution away, and instilling a far left government.
If you listen to the ones from the past they had 'schools' for the smart ones to sit there and think about ways to defeat western capitalist nations. One of the most prominent methods that has stuck out to me came from an Italian communist in the 1920's who proposed to defeat such a nation you do it from the inside, and peacefully over time. You basically have to take select groups of people (women, minorities, gays, the poor and immigrants) and make them feel special. You then push traditional values as out of date, out of touch, and propose they are wrong. Each time you take out a traditional building blocks of a nation you replace that block with a progressive/communist block.
Over time enough blocks are replaced you've effectively turned a country with traditional western capitalist values into a far left communist nation.
The communists actually thought WW1 would be a communist revolution, and when that failed they had to rethink things. The period between the world wars had a deep political battle. Just before Hitler came to power the other political party trying to 'win' were communists. There were communists all over Europe.
The USSR was sending agents into the USA along with a lot money to fund communist operations here. Everyone should read the Venona Papers. Communism was well and alive here since the early 1900's. One of the reasons FDR supported the NFA was because of a fear of a communist revolt. Post WW2 they were sending a lot of funds here, and collaborating with CPUSA. They also sent money to Black Panther groups and other extremist organizations.
Going back to what I said about the building blocks a lot of the Vietnam era protests and social changes were pushed by communist organizations, and of course blacks were protesting for civil rights. There was the sexual revolution, and other such 'free thinking' causes meant to tear away traditional values. I'm not saying civil rights for blacks is communist or was a bad thing to do just was the start of the current situation we have the US where things like simply opposing what Obama wants is racist. The Tea Party is racist, ect. The progressives in the US latched onto those 4 groups I mentioned, and have been pushing them ever since.
If you listen to, and read their commentary about conservatives the single goal here is to destroy right leaning ideology. To do this they have to make conservatism and traditional values a bad thing to believe in, where people are ashamed to admit to being one, and they need us to be a minority. There are several methods here but some basic methods are constantly accusing them of being racist, homophobic, biggots, bring in the mental health field to proclaim conservatism a mental disease, anti-immigrant, ect.
If you look at the demographics of the US they CAN win a majority, and the trend is to their benefit. Minorities have higher birth rates than whites, they have effectively locked in the gay, minority, and poor vote. Women vote for them by about a 15 point advantage. What unions do for them is take white male votes away from conservatives.
These people have been thinking this through and been doing it for a 100 years. Europe is in an advanced stage of the cancer, and with the influx of immigrants the communists there have brought in it's on a matter of time, for the right there, to become a minority. Now the big one left to crack is the US. They are almost there. They have the media to control the message, they have the professors in colleges and teachers in our kids schools, and they have been working to unionize labor forever, they got minorities in the 50's and 60's, they got women with sex and abortions (and now birth control ect).
Right leaning people have been ignoring this while these people have been working for a century, and I've said in other threads the trend in US politics has been shifting left for decades. The nanny state has grown, and is not adopted into the conservative political platform. Way on the way right there's about 5% or less of us who believe in true small government as our Founders intended for us to be.
I would not put anything past the real far left thinkers and planners to create events to which to garner support for their political ideology. They have been doing it for decades all around the world. The Cloward and Piven plan is designed to bring down the entire US economy and social structure, and those two have sat behind US sitting presidents as they signed bills into law. People refuse to believe far leftists will create events in which they can use to promote their ideology?
And even though I understand what they are doing, and can spot it with ease I don't really have a viable solution to combat it. Communism is a cancer that once is introduced into a host more far more often than not succeeds. The US is shifting left a bit more every year. Look at the reelection of Obama. How did he get elected in the first place. The right was screaming this guy was a communist and the people still voted for him. I think, unless the right gets off their ass in the next few years, and simply out numbers them at the polls the Republican party is going to be put in such a tight spot it would take a monumental **** up on their part to get a right wing president elected again in this country.
We are very close to precipice if not already over it in which the demographics simply won't support the election of a right wing president anymore. If you think a gun ban will do it Clinton was reelected after signing one. And there simply isn't enough support in this country to vote someone in based on fiscal issues or welfare reform. The communists are going to run around screaming to old people and single mothers the Republicans are going to take their benefits away. Look at this last election where Romney was accused of murder, of being a felon, and all sorts of other heinous stuff. The communists are getting louder, and the conservatives don't have an counter argument that appeals to enough people.
We do not have many ideological thinkers and strategists our side. We rely on people in government, which should be the bane of our ideology, for guidance. What we have is 200+ year old quotes and belief in a waning ideology. Conservatives have made ideological and political mistakes that have turned off voters, and not supported the right candidates. The GWB presidency was awful for conservatism because it simply gave the communists a bag full of talking points to use, and conservatives basically abandoned traditional values in favor of more progressive ones. His two terms was an advancement of progressive ideology not a repeal of it, and did nothing to make it appealing to voters. This is why, with the popular vote, Republican numbers have been declining every election for 3 straight races.
I think historically, this is all a natural evolution of society, and something the Founder's warned us about. I think they knew, and believed that freedom is not a normal state of a human society. What they gave us has never happened anywhere else, and the chances of it happening again in the future are next to nothing because they had the opportunity of a 'new world' to go to. Due to technology and travel at the time they had the home turf advantage, and the circumstances of the American Revolution were to their benefit. It was a time when monarchs were already starting to go out of flavor.
My suggestion is to hold on to whatever means of self defense you have because because one day they will come knocking, and it ain't gonna be to bring you cookies. Extermination of opposition is a common occurrence in communist take overs, and has been a regular suggestion in far left circles for decades. Obama's mentor, Bill Ayers, has suggested millions of Americans would need to be exterminated to achieve a total take over. Just recently, a journalist and founder of a progressive think tank, proposed exterminating NRA members.
One of the most troubling things about Obama winning a second term, and what I think are increasingly lower odds of a Republican president each cycle being able to get elected, is Supreme Court justices. We have a shaky majority. All it takes is one conservative judge to retire and the Supreme Court will vote to approve a firearms ban. Communist Supreme Court justices will not look to the Constitution, and they will come up with the most convoluted arguments against precedent to justify it. A communist getting elected to the presidency after Obama will all but ensure gun right's in America will be toast.
Looking at ways to help protect us I think we are going to have to get our 'free states' on board. We cannot let our local and state LEO's become stooges for the Federal government in gun bans or prosecuting people for Federal laws mirrored in state law. We need to try to do this on the Federal level, but try to get the most right leaning people competent enough to do the job elected. We may lose majority of seats at the Federal level but if we start losing more states or our state's won't help we will be in the worst spot possible. The communists in the Federal government have been trying to get their hooks in the states and do away with the concept of states rights for a very good reason. It's simply a 180 to communist ideology to have states with sovereign powers to a limited central government.
Last thing. I don't care if this sounds far fetched or impossible to some of you. This is all stated goals of theirs in their own words. They have printed books detailing what their ideology is, and publish articles and other media promoting communist ideology. Like I said people like Cloward and Piven have sat behind a sitting US president while he signed a law into the books they supported. They are here, and it's quite evident quite a few of you lean that way at it is which I find unfortunate but not surprising. My hope is one day there will be an event or something else which finally clicks the correct two brain cells together to make you 'get it', and what the ideology you support really is all about.
Cincinnatus
01-03-13, 10:55
Spot on, Belmont.
All very true and I agree.
Agree with you Belmont that we are seeing the natural tendency of human nature revert to rejection of "authority" (traditional values and rule of law) only to be enslaved y a more tyrannical authority.
I think this story has played out many times over the centuries, in many places. We've had numerous warnings by many great men, yet a large percentage of the population is fairly ignorant and willing to swallow almost anything in exchange for a few trinkets, especially if they are someone else's trinkets. How do you resist the tide of the population voting for getting grabbing other people's money for nothing? Or to spend without limit?
We went over the fiscal cliff in 2008 with TARP. Now we face new gun legislation. If our reps cave on liberty they way they caved on fiscal responsibility then we are hopelessly lost on the path to tyranny. Our best hope may be a solar storm or other massive natural disaster that disables the monstrosity of govt! We have a narrow window to try to use the mechanisms of representative govt to turn back this trend in terms of liberty, but the tide of weak human nature is against us.
Rmplstlskn
01-03-13, 14:28
I wonder, if passed, how many gunowners, indeed how many members here even, will fill out their ATF registration forms for "high capacity magazines" and "assault weapons," not wanting THEMSELVES to be the "raised nail" because they have a family and all, you know...
Or will there be widespread disobedience?
I confess that my present belief is that most will fill out the forms, saying, "The Second Amendment is still safe, it is just paperwork. They know who I am anyways..."
Rmpl
Belmont31R
01-03-13, 14:54
Guys....we already have registration except the database is stored at our dealers instead of at ATF HQ. They simply comb through dealer's records, take 4473's, and compile lists of firearms you own. How do I know? I was targeted for an ATF visit under a program in border states to find people possibly straw buying firearms to send to Mexico. When the ATF agents showed up at my door step they had all the 4473's from the local area I had filled out from multiple dealers, and a spread sheet of other firearms. They had copies of my military records, pictures of my extended family, ect.
All those forms are just sitting there for them to take and use however they want.
Doc Safari
01-03-13, 15:06
Guys....we already have registration except the database is stored at our dealers instead of at ATF HQ. They simply comb through dealer's records, take 4473's, and compile lists of firearms you own. How do I know? I was targeted for an ATF visit under a program in border states to find people possibly straw buying firearms to send to Mexico. When the ATF agents showed up at my door step they had all the 4473's from the local area I had filled out from multiple dealers, and a spread sheet of other firearms.
I can personally vouch for the fact that this is 100% true and not some made-up internet bullshit.
This occurred in 1993, right?
Guess what? They never found me. Apparently if they couldn't find you, they probably put out an arrest warrant for you for "lying about your address on the 4473."
Things got dicey.
One guy called in to a Saturday morning radio show to tell how he got pulled over for a routine traffic stop and the cops hauled him in because "ATF needs to talk to you." When confronted with the accusation that he had lied about his address on the 4473, he said, "I moved." Supposedly the agents told him "You should have notified us." His reply to this was, "I have no legal obligation to inform you if I move." After some back and forth about what the definition of "permanent address" might be, they let him go.
What a horror story. I tend to believe it because it apparently happened to more than one person and the local gun shops were doing damage control with people who called to complain.
For years I wondered if I had an arrest warrant out for me because I lived in the middle of nowhere and the houses aren't clearly marked with any kind of address. When I went through my first NICS check several years later, all was good, but I still ponder to this day if there is a "file on me" because of that incident.
To make a long story short, the 4473 is bad juju, almost as bad as outright registration.
Moose-Knuckle
01-03-13, 15:46
To make a long story short, the 4473 is bad juju, almost as bad as outright registration.
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/bbossman1/red_dawn_ObtainForm4473-1.jpg
Belmont31R
01-03-13, 16:11
I can personally vouch for the fact that this is 100% true and not some made-up internet bullshit.
This occurred in 1993, right?
Guess what? They never found me. Apparently if they couldn't find you, they probably put out an arrest warrant for you for "lying about your address on the 4473."
Things got dicey.
One guy called in to a Saturday morning radio show to tell how he got pulled over for a routine traffic stop and the cops hauled him in because "ATF needs to talk to you." When confronted with the accusation that he had lied about his address on the 4473, he said, "I moved." Supposedly the agents told him "You should have notified us." His reply to this was, "I have no legal obligation to inform you if I move." After some back and forth about what the definition of "permanent address" might be, they let him go.
What a horror story. I tend to believe it because it apparently happened to more than one person and the local gun shops were doing damage control with people who called to complain.
For years I wondered if I had an arrest warrant out for me because I lived in the middle of nowhere and the houses aren't clearly marked with any kind of address. When I went through my first NICS check several years later, all was good, but I still ponder to this day if there is a "file on me" because of that incident.
To make a long story short, the 4473 is bad juju, almost as bad as outright registration.
This was 2010 or 2011 when they came to my door. I guess they figured it was too much work, and the ATF ordered gun dealers in border states to report multiple sales of semi-auto rifles. Keep in mind, it took the GCA 68 to order dealers to report multiple handgun sales, and a law was defeated in Congress in 2010/2011 to do the same thing for rifles. Instead the ATF ordered it anyways without any law. For those that live in a border state ask their dealer about it. I don't know if they are still doing the home checks based off combing through dealer records but we definitely have long gun reporting in border states with no law passed by Congress.
A few days after my ATF home visit I went to the dealer I had the most business with (he is a C3 dealer) to ask him WTF and as soon as I walked in he said he was going to try to call customers to warn them but they took all of his records with contact information on it, and he had no way to get my phone number. He said they came in and took any records where people had multiple purchases of semi-auto rifles and pistols, and they did the same thing at other dealers because they had a couple 4473's from other dealers I had purchased firearms at.
This is why the ATF is so anal to dealers about keeping records and filling them out correctly. Aside from just the harassment aspect to scare dealers it helps the ATF ensure these records are as accurate as possible so when they go through them the information is more likely to be correct.
I was actually not surprised when they showed up because I had read a couple of first hand accounts of it at ar15.com when I was still a member there, and later found out they were pulling agents from other areas of the country and sending them to border states to help conduct these dealer records searches.
Here you go from the horses mouth:
3. Gun dealer compliance inspections conducted on the Southwest
border, inspection hours worked by Southwest border field division
inspectors, and inspection finding referrals made to ATF’s criminal
enforcement personnel for subsequent action – ATF increased the
number of gun dealer compliance inspections along the Southwest
Border by 133 percent and increased the number of compliance
inspection hours worked by 102 percent. The total number of
referrals ATF Industry Operations personnel made to ATF criminal
enforcement personnel increased by 47 percent.
In addition to its increased program activities described above, ATF
implemented a Gunrunner Impact Team initiative that increased the
number of gun dealer compliance inspections conducted and cases initiated within the Houston Field Division area. Under this initiative, ATF deployed 100 agents, investigators, and support staff to the Houston Field Division for 120 days. ATF reported that the team conducted over 1,000 inspections of gun dealers and generated investigative leads leading to the seizure of over 400 firearms.
Despite the increased ATF activity associated with Project Gunrunner,
we found that significant weaknesses in ATF’s implementation of Project Gunrunner undermine its effectiveness.
ATF Firearms Trafficking Intelligence and Information
We found that ATF does not systematically and consistently exchange
intelligence with its Mexican and some U.S. partner agencies. In addition, some ATF field agents reported that they do not find investigative leads provided to them by ATF’s Field Intelligence Groups to be timely and usable. We also determined that intelligence personnel in ATF’s Southwest border field divisions do not routinely share firearms trafficking intelligence with each other. ATF could better implement its Border Liaison Program to improve information sharing and coordination between its U.S. and its Mexico personnel.
And:
We also found that while reports of multiple sales of handguns
produce timely, actionable investigative leads for ATF, the lack of a reporting
requirement for multiple sales of long guns – which have become the cartels’
weapons of choice – hinders ATF’s ability to disrupt the flow of illegal
weapons into Mexico
Further reading at this link: http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e1101.pdf
Like I said, and what was told to me first hand is exactly what the link states. The ATF industry inspectors and 'intelligence' people comb through dealer records looking for people who buy multiple semi auto rifles, and then were showing up at people's houses. I had not bought a shit ton of lowers at once or anything. All the purchases were spread over time and well less than 20 total over a few years.
So, yes, we already have registration here, and the database is at all our dealer's shops.
With the multiple long gun reporting the ATF basically said things were not running efficiently enough, and even though the law authorizing them to demand such reporting was not passed by Congress they forced it on dealers anyways. Like I said the law authorizing it for handguns was the 68 GCA. I guess what once took a law to authorize something like sales reporting now just pops out of their asses and they do whatever they want.
The ATF is not an organization friendly to gun owners, and quite a few of them are foaming at the mouth over stricter gun control.
People who think mass registration will not work don't know their modus operandi. They already have access to records for MOST semi-auto purchases and who owns them. They are saying right on the Justice website they are going through dealer's records to generate leads. If that Feinstein bill passes, and adds AR15's to the NFA they will be checking dealer records against who actually registered them, the FOPA protections against a national database will go bye bye with semi-auto rifles being NFA items. If 4473 records show you bought 5 AR's over the last few years it's unlikely you sold them all, and they will know you are an NFA violator.
Doc Safari
01-03-13, 16:36
People who think mass registration will not work don't know their modus operandi. They already have access to records for MOST semi-auto purchases and who owns them. They are saying right on the Justice website they are going through dealer's records to generate leads. If that Feinstein bill passes, and adds AR15's to the NFA they will be checking dealer records against who actually registered them, the FOPA protections against a national database will go bye bye with semi-auto rifles being NFA items. If 4473 records show you bought 5 AR's over the last few years it's unlikely you sold them all, and they will know you are an NFA violator.
So there you have it. All you people better buy a boat and have an accident transporting your guns across the lake and....QUICK!
I think maybe we'd better spread the word about how registration/confiscation WILL work and in fact WILL succeed. There are still too many people living in Disneyland who think that it will never come to that. (I was one unfortunately :D).
I have to admit earlier in this and other threads I didn't think it was feasible, but if they dot.guv is willing to take months or years to do it....or it becomes another beaureaucracy just to register or confiscate....
Glad I've held onto all my consignment forms where I've sold a firearm over the last few years.
brushy bill
01-03-13, 17:33
If you read the stuff from the real intellectual leftists they openly state what their goal is; wiping the Constitution away, and instilling a far left government.
Excellent post!
Belmont31R
01-03-13, 19:45
A 'cease and desist letter' is something the ATF agent's who came to my house mentioned. Basically if they suspect you buying and selling guns as an unlicensed dealer they can 'order' you to curtail all buying and selling of firearms.
Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside don't it?
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1414627_ATF_letter_to_Cease_and_Desist_calling_me_a_dealer____.html
Here is a quote of the OP since he deleted it:
Ok, so in January of 2012, i purchased a used M&P from Cabela's. I then spent the next 7 months customizing it (frame work, slide work, red dot installed, etc.) to be set up as a race gun. with a new assignment at work (LEO) i was looking for a compact pistol, but having no "disposable" income, i opted to split with the M&P (for quite the loss btw!!!) and sold it via the EE here. Well, in october the gun was recovered in canada. i was contact by the ATF, who i provided all the info i have to, including the buyer, the FFL who it was shipped to, the FedEx invoice, all emails and IM from here, as well as original ad. i explained to the guy i was LEO, and was going through the hiring process with the state police, and he said i was good to go, that all the info provided aleviated all susipicion or investigation in my direction, and i should pay it no more thought.
well today, i get a letter stating that i must 'cease and desist' all sale, purchaseing, and transfering of firearms as, based upon their investigation of my profile on arfcom including my 955 posts, including 100% feedback from 43 respondents that they have "reason to believe" i am "enagaging in the business" of dealing, manufacturing, and saleing firearms over the internet. i responded stating that the numbers arent a correct representation of my dealings, as many of those posts are in discussion threads, that the majority of my feedback is from accessories, and that over the last 10 years, ive maybe sold half a dozen firearms over the internet.
the part that im concerned of, is the cease and desist, as it states that the letter shows evidence of notice and that if i am to sell, purchase, or tranfer another firearm without purchasing an FFL (which they so kindly including an application) that i would be wholely investigated and face 250000 in fines, 5 years, etc...
anyone ever gone through this?
im freaking out right now!!!!
Doc Safari
01-04-13, 09:08
Those people who got 'cease and desist' letters are damn lucky they didn't get 'cease and desist' SWAT teams at 3 am.
ATF has wanted to target 'unlicensed dealers' for several years. That's one reason I don't sell my discards except through an FFL anymore. They can't bitch about that.
well today, i get a letter stating that i must 'cease and desist' all sale, purchaseing, and transfering of firearms as, based upon their investigation of my profile on arfcom including my 955 posts, including 100% feedback from 43 respondents that they have "reason to believe" i am "enagaging in the business" of dealing, manufacturing, and saleing firearms over the internet. i responded stating that the numbers arent a correct representation of my dealings, as many of those posts are in discussion threads, that the majority of my feedback is from accessories, and that over the last 10 years, ive maybe sold half a dozen firearms over the internet.
Well look at that.
Wow.
Well look at that.
Wow.
Yeh....scary. Deep down I knew this but to see it in black and white is just disturbing.
-Jax
Those people who got 'cease and desist' letters are damn lucky they didn't get 'cease and desist' SWAT teams at 3 am.
Hmm, I wonder when all of those "American" LEO's who intend to refuse orders to confiscate firearms, or target law abiding citizens, will get invovled, and defend us all from "ahh" their bosses....
Moose-Knuckle
01-04-13, 19:58
Yeh....scary. Deep down I knew this but to see it in black and white is just disturbing.
-Jax
Firearm and survival related boards have been monitored for YEARS. They may post as average joes, others act as agents provocateurs, and yet others engage in forms of COINTELPRO; forum sliding, consensus cracking, topic dilution, data mining, et al.
Hmm, I wonder when all of those "American" LEO's who intend to refuse orders to confiscate firearms, or target law abiding citizens, will get invovled, and defend us all from "ahh" their bosses....
You can't be a criminal and a law abiding citizen at the same time. You'll just be a criminal. Business as usual when dealing with criminals.
You can't be a criminal and a law abiding citizen at the same time. You'll just be a criminal. Business as usual when dealing with criminals.
So you're saying that L.E.O's are criminals?
So you're saying that L.E.O's are criminals?What the **** are you talking about? If ARs were to be criminalized. Owners would be criminals. People fall all over themselves to make any post anti LEO.
brushy bill
01-04-13, 21:18
What the **** are you talking about? If ARs were to be criminalized. Owners would be criminals. People fall all over themselves to make any post anti LEO.
Seems lately some have a martyr complex
What the **** are you talking about? If ARs were to be criminalized. Owners would be criminals. People fall all over themselves to make any post anti LEO.
"Ahh" thats the point, thank you for punctuating it so well...
Belmont31R
01-04-13, 22:03
Did you guys see he bolded 'law abiding citizens'?
Geez.
brushy bill
01-04-13, 22:28
Did you guys see he bolded 'law abiding citizens'?
Geez.
Of course...he's one of the good guys though. Comments to the contrary are "anti-LEO".
Well look at that.
Wow.
I was thinking the same thing. We all know posting here often may makes us somewhat visible, but you don't expect trouble if you do everything right.
The part that strikes the hardest is when you hear that someone had their whole post history dug into, even a police officer, and false demonization was the end result. And also this before all or even most circumstances were understood.
Doc Safari
01-05-13, 14:35
Why does this surprise anybody?
They keep talking about wanting everyone to have a 'real' internet ID.
You think that's to make ordering stuff from eBay easier?
:rolleyes:
Moose-Knuckle
01-05-13, 15:40
Why does this surprise anybody?
They keep talking about wanting everyone to have a 'real' internet ID.
You think that's to make ordering stuff from eBay easier?
:rolleyes:
Yup, Orwell warned us.
montanadave
01-05-13, 15:59
“A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie.” -- Vladimir Lenin
You can't be a criminal and a law abiding citizen at the same time. You'll just be a criminal. Business as usual when dealing with criminals.
With the proliferation of dumb, stupid, idiotic, unconstitutional laws, we are ALL criminals then.
I am sorry, but your distinction is artificial.
For the purpose of this discussion, I would define "criminal" as someone who purposefully breaks a law with nefarious intent. Not the normal law-abiding citizen who inadvertently breaks one of the multitude of ever growing laws, or who stands up to tyranny.
--
Moose-Knuckle
01-05-13, 17:04
With the proliferation of dumb, stupid, idiotic, unconstitutional laws, we are ALL criminals then.
I am sorry, but your distinction is artificial.
For the purpose of this discussion, I would define "criminal" as someone who purposefully breaks a law with nefarious intent. Not the normal law-abiding citizen who inadvertently breaks one of the multitude of ever growing laws, or who stands up to tyranny.
Agreed, but that's what despots do they criminalize those who resist them. IMHO there is a difference between an outlaw i.e. someone who lives outside the law and a career criminal someone who's sole purpose is to abuse his fellow man and provide for his existence by ill-gotten means.
Not the normal law-abiding citizen who inadvertently breaks one of the multitude of ever growing laws, or who stands up to tyranny.
--
Make no mistake about it, we will be the "criminals" if we fight for our rights if Congress fails to stop this. We will be labeled as "terrorists" because we won't let them push their agenda further. The first slap in the face to a tyrannical US government telling them to step off our rights will lead to a terrorist label. Society has been conditioned.
“A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie.” -- Vladimir Lenin
This is really happening, isn't it?
I'm not dreaming. I'm not in a coma. There's really a collectivist subversive takeover happening in my country, and we're in the most pivotal struggle of any of our lifetimes.
And we're behind
So lets do all we can to make an effort to give our Congressmen a fire under their asses!! Maybe we can get them to hold off any legislation!!
People, please write your reps via email to stop them from taking our 2nd amendment rights away. A link is provided below, and this only takes a few seconds, THE LETTER IS COMPOSED ALREADY FOR YOU! Here are the steps.
1) Click your state. 2) Click the Senator/Rep name you want to write and click "go". 3) Click the "Contact" tab above the picture of your Senator/Rep. 4) Click "Contact Senator/Rep XXX via web form". 5) Select "Stop the Semi-Auto Gun Ban Bill" and click next step.
Then follow the prompts and you're done!!! Here is a link!
http://www.nraila.org/get-involved-locally/grassroots/write-your-reps.aspx
(There was also a newer link that let you email Obama, Biden, and ALL your state reps at once with the same pre-written email, but I used it and its no longer available on my page so look out for that. The link said something like "Take Action To Stop the Semi-Auto Gun Ban Bill" in an image. That is the easiest way)
Edited to add:
This is the link for the newer link I saw....
http://www.capwiz.com/nra/issues/alert/?alertid=62316586
This is really happening, isn't it?
I'm not dreaming. I'm not in a coma. There's really a collectivist subversive takeover happening in my country, and we're in the most pivotal struggle of any of our lifetimes.
And we're behind
Yes, and they have their half of the nation literally screaming for the blood of the other half, or anyone who opposes them, editors of American newspapers are literally encouraging murder, yet others, including a contigent right here, unhesitatingly scoff in derision if you even mention marxism and how its principles have been disseminated in the public school system for years, softening up American youth, but they're good with anything homosexual, and chem trails in the food...As far as I'm concerned we are through the looking glass...
everyusernametaken
01-06-13, 00:18
http://www.nraila.org/get-involved-locally/grassroots/write-your-reps.aspx
(There was also a newer link that let you email Obama, Biden, and ALL your state reps at once with the same pre-written email, but I used it and its no longer available on my page so look out for that. The link said something like "Take Action To Stop the Semi-Auto Gun Ban Bill" in an image. That is the easiest way)
That "email all" link is present on the page you linked. It is a big red "ACT" button with "Stop the Semi-Auto Gun Ban Bill" next to it. I just used it, just enter your address in the form, and it determines who your reps are for you.
With the proliferation of dumb, stupid, idiotic, unconstitutional laws, we are ALL criminals then.
I am sorry, but your distinction is artificial.
For the purpose of this discussion, I would define "criminal" as someone who purposefully breaks a law with nefarious intent. Not the normal law-abiding citizen who inadvertently breaks one of the multitude of ever growing laws, or who stands up to tyranny.
--
Sadly the justice industry doesn't care too much how we characterize folks. If some ban or regulation passes we'd have to go along with the provisions or risk legal trouble. Just like the folks who didn't register their MG or SBR. Or kept smoking pot. Or kept hunting deer when .gov decided you should only hunt at certain times. Or whatever endless new law. A new ban is going to be no different than all the past bans on items and activities.
Larry
You're right. I just read something pretty similar from Paul Howe. It went more into the how and why confiscation wouldn't work.
It is frustrating. We need to make sure voices are heard.
Unfortunately a non-feasible policy usually isn't problematic for politicians.
Look at health care.
brushy bill
01-06-13, 09:43
This is really happening, isn't it?
I'm not dreaming. I'm not in a coma. There's really a collectivist subversive takeover happening in my country, and we're in the most pivotal struggle of any of our lifetimes.
And we're behind
"Fundamental Transformation"...words have meaning and elections have consequences.
You guys do realize who runs Google correct? You realize that same govt' dept runs facebook also (there is a reason its founder called facebook users "dumb ****ers"). You also realize that somehow after you've been searching for say "nike free shoes", all the sudden the adds on google are for nike shoes......
Its not a coincidence.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-05-11/court-google-nsa-spy-china/54912902/1
Your shit is out there. Might as well not worry about trying to hide it......
You know who they have working for them?
Ray Kurzweil... To say he's been ahead of his time is a bit of an understatement.
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