Germany's nationwide gun registry.

[sinlessorrow]

Its for your safety.
http://www.dw.de/germany-compiles-first-nationwide-gun-register/a-16485652

[SteyrAUG]

This is hardly the first time.

The Weimar Republic had gun registration.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1791/did-hitler-ban-gun-ownership

"The laws adopted by the Weimar Republic intended to disarm Nazis and Communists were sufficiently discretionary that the Nazis managed to use them against their enemies once they were in power." In other words, they didn't need to pass additional laws. The Nazis did pass a weapons law in 1938, but that only added restrictions to the previous law, especially for Jews and other "non-citizens."

[skullworks]

We have had gun registration in Sweden since the early 20th century, when the government was afraid that communists (inspired by the Russian revolution, and supported by Soviet Russia) would organize a similar armed uprising here and the government wanted control over who had firearms.

Just as in Germany the Swedish registry used to be locally managed, but several years ago the registry was computerized and nationalized. And that's when they ****ed it all up as the computer system they use is severely limited and it is easy for whoever enters information to make mistakes (I have seen a firearms license for a Glock 17 be listed as a Hansson Shooting Stick (http://www.widforss.se/?p=vapenauktion&auktion=&auktion=30&visa=Skjutk%E4pp) - probably due to clicking on the wrong name in a pull-down menu,) and it's also very common that the caliber is wrong - especially since they for some godawful reason wants the caliber in metric measurements rather than the true caliber name (a .300 Whisper could be listed as a 7.62x38, a .357 Magnum is 9.1x33R, and if two or more calibers share the same case length and bullet diameter all kinds of problems can arise.)

Since all firearms transactions have to be approved by the police it is also not uncommon that a firearm will be registered with it's new approved owner but that they forgot to remove the registration from the seller. What has happened all too often is that after someone has died (from sickness or whatever) the police will come knocking, asking what happened to the firearms that according to their records were still registered to the deceased, even though they are being lawfully owned AND registered with someone else. The police will then use these "lost" firearms as a reason to further restrict civilian ownership of firearms.

Well, enough about our woes...

In the free industry publication GunTradeWorld they've run a series of articles authored by Derek Bernard, called "The Folly of Gun Registration." They are quite interesting and look at several countries. I found most of the articles online (these are hosted on Google Drive, so access may be limited):


The Folly of Gun Registration: Part 1 (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B20VYXOOQPQ0b1RLOVNkcFphQjA)
The Folly of Gun Registration: Part 2 (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B20VYXOOQPQ0aFJSVXhnZFVLOGc)
The Folly of Gun Registration: Part 4 (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B20VYXOOQPQ0eEdrUUE0WUllSDA)
The Folly of Gun Registration: Part 5 (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B20VYXOOQPQ0cWlYV09scXRybTg)

The missing part 3 was a comment on the fact that Canada had just abolished the requirement for long gun registration, and the immense costs the registration had incurred over the few years it was in effect.

[ForTehNguyen]

I managed to locate "part 3":

http://www.jerseypistolclub.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/201206-GTW.pdf

[skullworks]

Splendid!

[Safetyhit]

Well, enough about our woes.

Your insight is welcomed and certainly informative. Please continue to offer as much first hand analysis and opinion as possible.

[Iraqgunz]

When I lived in Germany all firearms were registered. You could only purchase ammunition listed on the Waffenbesitzerkarte and parts were controlled.

Magazines were not controlled however and they were relatively cheap and available. It didn't matter whether or not there is a central registry because they kept a pretty tight hold on everything and it was by no means easy to get one.

Illegally however was a different story and those who knew where to look would find one. Lots of shit used to come in via the eastern countries, former Yugo countries, etc....

[skullworks]

Since Safetyhit asked...

In Sweden you can only own firearms for three purposes (in the order of what is most common as well as easiest to get a permit for):

Hunting
Target shooting
Collecting

Hunting
To be able to hunt in Sweden you need to have a completed a hunters education course. These courses are often completed as a weekly evening class over several months, but it's also possible to take intensive study courses spanning just a few days. The course entails questions about pretty much all mammals and bird we have in Sweden (as you obviously need to be able to distinguish between what you can and cannot hunt), and the written portion of the test is more extensive than the AZ drivers test (which of course may not say much... ;))

The written test is followed by a couple of practical exams, such as shooting a number of clay pigeons, walking a small path where you need to show safe gun handling when crossing various obstacles, and also tell the instructor whether or not you would shoot at various targets presented (and armed with a shotgun you will be presented with a deer target that is out of range for shot shells.)
Once you successfully complete these test you are issued a hunting permit with which you can apply for a firearms permit for up to four rifles. If you need additional rifles past the first four you need to provide a justification for why you need them, and according to the current rules no hunter needs more than six rifles unless there are some very uncommon circumstances.

Semi-automatic hunting rifles cannot have a folding or retractable stock, it cannot be based on a military design (no AR:s, no M1A, no Mini-14, no M1 Carbine,) and it cannot be loaded with more than five cartridges while hunting. Shotguns cannot have a capacity over 2+1, and if you're out hunting bear you cannot have a capacity over 2 (which makes no sense whatsoever). The only handguns allowed for hunting is single shot handguns (mostly .22LR) for hunting fox and badgers in their burrows.

Target shooting
To get a firearms permit for target shooting you need to be member of a shooting club, you need to have shown proficiency with the type of firearm you want (the entry-level handgun is a .22LR,) and you need to have been a member of the club for a minimum of six months. After a year of continued activity and proficiency you can apply for a "large calibre handgun" (ie 9mm to .455 - anything above .455 is next to impossible to get a permit for). Since the late '90s all permits for handguns have a five-year expiration date. This means that if you want to continue to own your handgun you need to reapply, showing that you've been active in the club (preferably having competed several times) under the past year, and that you continue to show proficiency. This will be attested by your club. If you are unable to show any requisite activity you need to sell or hand in your firearm. The police does not buy back your firearm. If you fail to reapply in a timely manner you can (and these days most likely will be) prosecuted for unlawful possession of a firearm. And, usually an otherwise law-abiding gun owner who just forgot to reapply on time (but otherwise fulfil the requirements) will receive a harsher sentence than Joe Dirtbag who got caught with meth and a CZ with filed-off serial number.

At present I'm not really sure what goes for target rifles, aside from those that are being used for IPSC Rifle. For IPSC Rifle you need to have an IPSC license and to have been an active member of an IPSC club for a minimum of 6 months. You also need to have taken the IPSC Rifle course (which is an add-on to the regular IPSC handgun course/examination). You also need to be able to complete the "Silver Requirements" which are:

At 25 meters, score two A hits in 2.5 seconds or less
At 50 meters, score two A hits, reload & take a knee and score another two A hits in 10 seconds or less
At 100 meters, go prone and score two A hits in 5 seconds or less

The starting position is the same for all three; standing, rifle condition 1, held at the hip pointing downrange. Each of these have to be successfully completed three times in a row.

In Sweden we have an organisation called FSR which would be most equal to the CMP in the U.S. FSR focuses on high power rifle, but it is also the only national organization that has SMG shooting (though only with the kpist m/45B aka "The Swedish K") - however no new permits are being issued for SMG:s for FSR use.

As of right now rifle permits - regardless of application - do not have an expiration date, but we fear that based on what happened in Norway (as well as in Aurora and Newtown) that will change this year.

Also, just as normally limited to six firearms for hunting you are also limited to ten firearms for target shooting.

Collecting
To collect firearms you need to have a clearly defined focus for your collection. "Allied weapons of WWII" would be considered too broad these days, but was at one time a valid focus. For example one of my friends collect firearms used by The Royal Ulster Constabulary, and another collect handguns used by the Swedish Police (which is a deceivingly broad focus as there was no standardised handgun prior to 1967.) It was previously possible to collect fully automatic weapons as well, but this is becoming increasingly difficult.

General
If you have a valid reason for wanting a firearm, let's say for hunting, you decide on what model you want to get, and if possible you locate someone who has that model for sale. For arguments sake, you walk into your local gun store and spot a Remington 700 LTR. The dealer will help you fill out an application detailing your address etc, what make and model of firearm, calibre, barrel length, class of ammunition, how many firearms you already own, and how you intend to store them (all firearms most be stored in a proper gun safe, so you need to tell them the make and model of the safe) and whether or not any one else in the household owns firearms.

You then take the form and a xeroxed copy of your hunting permit to your local police department. If this is your first firearm you pay a non-refundable application fee of SEK 700 ($107) and if you already own a firearm the fee for each additional firearm is SEK 250 ($39).

And then you wait...

Depending on where you live the processing time vary from "just grab a coffee from the vending machine while I print it out" to 8+ months.

If two private citizens want transfer a firearm between each other the seller needs to send his firearm permit to the buyer (or to the buyer's local police department) to be submitted with the buyer's permit application and fee. Once the transaction has been approved the seller receives a "seller's copy" of the buyer's permit, but it's not uncommon that the buyer receives both his original and the seller's copy - not a huge problem, but still...

Also, normal gunsafes are classified for 20 firearms. That sounds acceptable, but what they mean is 20 firearm "points" - different firearms have different amount of points:

Rifles and shotguns are 1 point
Handguns are 2 points
Full-auto firearms are 4 points

So yes, you can try to jam 20 rifles into the safe, or 10 handguns, or 5 F/A firearms, or a mix of all of them. Often the police will urge you to get graded safes once you go above 20 points.


One of the biggest problems we have here is that a lot of the civilian admins who handle these applications lack a basic understanding of firearms, Swedish gun laws, and what various firearms are being lawfully used for here. A lot of people in the chain of command are also outspoken about their wish to limit firearms ownership by whatever means possible.

And as Iraqgunz noted, the big problem is not lawfully owned firearms, it is the firearms that are being smuggled into Sweden from the Balkans and former Eastern Bloc. Invariably, whenever the police has confiscated firearms from criminals you will find Zastavas, CZs and HS firearms that were never legally owned in Sweden.

Oh, and has the registry ever prevented or helped solve a crime? Not that I'm aware. With the introduction of the 5-year limit on handguns we've managed to turn law-abiding citizens into "criminals." The only thing that has actually had any impact was when they introduced the requirement that firearms must be stored in gun safes - it may have minimize the number of firearms related accidents (which we had very few to begin with,) but the number of burglaries of gun owners have gone down... Which means that the criminals that need firearms have gone from locally stolen (and then sawed-off) hunting shotguns to pistols smuggled into the country. And since handguns are easier to hide, firearms among criminals are more prevalent today then ever before (of course there a bunch socio-economic reasons as well, but...)

Okay, that's the wall of words for today. :help:

[Airhasz]

Sounds like it's time for a revolution.

[Safetyhit]

Very interesting Skullworks and certainly where many would have us here immediately if they could. It must be very frustrating indeed to be at the mercy of such a hostile and selective bureaucracy, however living here in New Jersey I can relate to an alarmingly practical extent.

[skullworks]

Very much so; and even though the laws are the same throughout the country they are enforced differently depending on where you're at.

For example, the legal requirements as to proficiency and activity to apply for a large caliber handgun is that you need to have been proficient and active with the firearm you already own (most likely a .22LR pistol if this is in the beginning of your shooting career) or that you have available through your club. Sounds pretty straight forward, right?

Well, there have been a number of cases over the past couple of years where the police have denied an application because the applicant cannot prove any activity with the weapon he has applied for... Yes, you heard me. Catch 22. To get a permit for this handgun you need to be active with it first, but in order to be active with it you need to have a permit for it, but in order to....
:suicide:

[austinN4]

Thank you, skullworks for your post. It is nice to read a well written post that actually includes information and not just a rant.

But I guess I just ranted, didn't I? :bad:

[Pork Chop]

I highly doubt that "catch 22" is coincidental, either.

[skullworks]

I highly doubt that "catch 22" is coincidental, either.
Not at all.

[Arctic1]

The rules are pretty similar to what Skullworks listed, here in Norway.

To qualify for the activity requirement, beginner shooters usually borrow weapons at their club for the first 6 months. Hunters must complete a Hunters Course, lasting up to 6 days, usually one night a week over several weeks. The beginner courses and hunters courses cost in the vicinity of 400-500 dollars.

The application process is a bit different, as we only put caliber, type of weapon (pistol, rifle, shotgun etc) and reason for purchase (competition, hunting, etc) on the application. We pay a 200$ fee for first time application, and a 100$ fee for subsequent applications. Hunters also have to pay a fee for a hunters license.

You must provide relevant and valid documentation with each application, ie membership cards, activity confirmation etc.

When the application is approved, you hand it over to the guy at the gun store, who fills in the relevant information about the weapon. The application is then sent in to the police, and you keep one of the sheets as a temporary license as well as taking the firearm with you. Once the police has received the filled out form from the gun store, they issue a "weapons card"for each weapon you purchase.

Hunters can purchase up to 6 weapons. For non-hunting firearms, ie semi-auto rifles and handguns, you can only own 1 weapon of each caliber, unless you compete in competition with several divisions, requiring different setups.

In order to purchase ammunition, you must show your weapon card, and you can only purchase ammunition in the caliber of the guns you own.

No expiration dates on any license, and no skill tests required, except for hunters. There is an "approved weapon" list for semi-automatic rifles, as well as restrictions on features and other types of weapons. To lengthy to describe in detail.

LEO's and military NCOs and Officers (ie not conscripts) are exempt from the activity requirements. They can purchase up to 3 firearms, based on a need for job-related marksmanship training.

No concealed carry what so ever, but you can get away with self defence in your home if you use your firearm.

And, as always, most weapons used for criminal activities are illegally obtained; stolen from military stores, stolen from gun shops, smuggled in from other countries. Depending on available funds and contact network, you can get anything from simple handguns to automatic rifles and rocket launchers on the black market.