European Gun Laws

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I have a college buddy that lives in Milan, Italy. We were talking about guns this weekend and he filled me in on how it isn’t exactly true that Europeans don’t have guns. Italy has a pretty good hunting and trap shooting tradition. Surprisingly, once you get a permit for a handgun, it isn’t just about possessing it, the handgun permit is really also a concealed carry permit also.

My buddy did have to get checked out in an ‘interview’ with local police and a have a doctor sign off on him before he could get his over and under shotgun- so that is a big difference—though neither was much more than a formality. When John went to his physician to get him to sign off on the shotgun registration, the doc told him that he had the pistol license and showed him his 32 Beretta ;)

Also John forwarded me the Italian version of GunBroker:

http://www.armiusate.it/index.php

You can pull down ‘English’ option. I clicked on ‘Rifles’ and you get all kinds of .308 ‘sniper rifles’ along with Springfield .308 SOCOM M14s, and MP5 in 9x21, even say a Bushmaster ACR, HK PSG1 and some .223 rifles.

I even see a Glock .45ACP listed.

Don’t let people bullshit you that Europeans don’t have guns. The laws and registration are different but there are gun nuts over there too. I know we have some here on M4C, it would be good if they could lend other nationalities laws so that we can refute the arguement that we have to follow Europe's lead to an unarmed future.

[djmorris]

We're not "Gun nuts". That's a mainstream media and liberal catch phrase to make any firearm owner sound unstable and incompetent.

[chadbag]

It is still much more restrictive.

I walked in to a gun store in Germany (which also has a strong tradition of firearms, once, and we compared notes some. They were amazed at how things worked here in the US (at least in the "free" states).

Some countries prohibit "military calibers" and other restrictions.

In some ways, though, things are a bit easier. In some countries, sound suppressors are just an off-the-shelf item and a friend had a legal full auto AUG in Sweden (not common, nor easy to get but he did -- it helped that he was a cop when getting papers signed of course) and it did not have the same NFA-style crap behind it (though it did have their normal high-level of any firearm crap behind it).


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[glocktogo]

I actually shot an IDPA match in Italy in 2011. I had to borrow a personally owned G-17 from an Italian Caribinieri officer while I was there, due to importation red tape. While I was there, I saw plenty of Italians with personally owned pistols. Hi-Cap CZ's and STI's in 9X21 were the most popular, but I saw a little of everything at the match. They seemed to travel pretty freely with them, but I was told that the red tape for ownership is extensive.

I'll be returning this year to do it again. Allegedly I can bring my gun with me this time, but I'll probably just borrow one again to avoid the hassle. I certainly hope we don't get that restrictive here in my lifetime. :(

[brickboy240]

That type of restriction is exactly what the DC weasels want.

You cannot go and wreck the economy and future of the average person and leave them pissed and armed.

-brickboy240

[TomMcC]

I was chatting with a fellow originally from the UK at my last 3 gun. He was telling me that although handguns were pretty much impossible to legally possess, people there could still get and possess militia rifles and hi caps, albeit many hoops must be jumped through . I just listened, but I was going mmmmmmm. Can anyone confirm this?

[GeorgiaBoy]

The main difference between Europe and the United States is that while we have a Constitutional "right" to own firearms, the countries over there treat firearm ownership as a privilege to those who can meet the given requirements. Yet, there are few "total bans" like most people think.

It is harder to get them, but a lot of countries over there have a far amount of gun ownership, and not all have total bans on everything but rim fires and double barrel shotguns. Some allow semi-autos/concealed carry.

Most require certain hunting/sporting licenses to purchase firearms, they have to be registered with the police, different licenses to purchase different categories of firearms, etc.

[Littlelebowski]

The main difference between Europe and the United States is that while we have a Constitutional "right" to own firearms, the countries over there treat firearm ownership as a privilege to those who can meet the given requirements. Yet, there are few "total bans" like most people think.

It is harder to get them, but a lot of countries over there have a far amount of gun ownership, and not all have total bans on everything but rim fires and double barrel shotguns. Some allow semi-autos/concealed carry.

Most require certain hunting/sporting licenses to purchase firearms, they have to be registered with the police, different licenses to purchase different categories of firearms, etc.

Not to mention that also, Europe is much more suppressor friendly in several places.

[Arctic1]

We have approximately 31 weapons per 100 people. There are approximately 1,2 million registered weapons in Norway, owned by just 480,000 people. Most of these weapons are for hunting and shooting competitions. Very few are handguns and semi-automatic rifles for practical shooting.

We are number 11 on the list of different countries gun ownership rates per capita:


There are also some unregistered weapons out there, heirlooms and such not requiring registration.

[Belmont31R]

I have a friend in Austria, who had several long guns in his house (met him on an online hunting forum). Think it's about the same above...permit and licensing. He could take his rifles to the range freely with no terrible restrictions, had plenty of ammo, mags, ect

And yeah gun laws, while strict by our standards, still allow most people to own guns. Almost everywhere I've been in Europe I've seen a shit ton of hunting stands in the countryside...so people are using them and have them. Been to several really nice hunting stores over there, and was accepted but didn't go to the gunsmithing school in Ferlach, Austria. That town is centering around custom firearms manufacturing, and is home to numerous top names.

There is also Switzerland which issues a Sig long gun to capable adult males, and I did see people openly carrying them there in 2002. They also sell semi-auto rifles there.

Some countries have looser suppressor laws than we do, and it's seen as being polite for sound reduction.

Hopefully some European lurkers and members chime in for details...

[Iraqgunz]

Switzerland used to have the the best laws in Europe. They allowed ccw in most Cantons and suppressors and military weapons to include full auto were plenty. But they too fell victim to the politicians and suffered lots of setbacks.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Thanks everyone for their insights. Just like all healthcare isn't govt run, there are guns in Europe. People often point to England, which may have the most restrictive gun laws it seems??

And all this with out a 'right' to guns.

Great point about the suppressors, it would be great to get some particulars on that to shove back at anti's when they talk about how crazy our gun laws are.

[Arctic1]

There are no restrictions on suppressor purchase in Norway. However, if you want one for a handgun that doesn't have a threaded barrel, you must either fill out a new application for the threaded barrel, or you can swap out the unthreaded barrel for a threaded one at a licensed dealer. The last option does not require ant paperwork on your end.

[Belmont31R]

There are no restrictions on suppressor purchase in Norway. However, if you want one for a handgun that doesn't have a threaded barrel, you must either fill out a new application for the threaded barrel, or you can swap out the unthreaded barrel for a threaded one at a licensed dealer. The last option does not require ant paperwork on your end.



That is very awesome. A lot easier than here (aside from the barrel part).


What about semi-auto military styled guns like Sig 55X, HK's, AR15's, ect? I had read Anders Breivik went outside of Norway to try to buy those type of firearms but was unable to, went back to Norway and bought a Ruger Mini-14, and bought the magazines from the US.

[Arctic1]

There is an addon regulation to the gun law that lists approved/banned weapons.

Approved semi-automatic rifles for competition shooting:


Total length of minimum 840mm/33" and barrel length of minimum 400mm/15.7".

1. Colt AR-15 H-bar/Sporter produced after 1986,
2. SIG SG 550 SP,
3. Steyr AUG civilian model,
4. Valmet M76/78A2,
5. Galil AR,
6. HK-94,
7. Bushmaster mod. XM15,
8. Olympic Arms AR-15 H-bar,
9. Heckler & Koch modell SL 8,
10. DPMS Panther Bull 24/DPMS Panther Bull 24 Special (incl. « Southpaw » mod),
11. Oberland Arms (OA) 15,
12. Izhmash Saiga sport 520,
13. Izhmash Saiga sport 555,
14. Tiger mod 03,
15. DPMS Panther mod LR-308 (incl «Southpaw» mod),
16. Armalite AR 10,
17. Armalite AR 10T,
18. Arsenal SAR-M1,
19. Heckler & Koch MR 223,
20. Heckler & Koch MR 308,
21. JP Enterprise CTR-02,
22. Armalite M 15
23. STAG 15.

Approved semi-automatic rifles for hunting:


1. Winchester M/100,
2. Browning BAR (excluding the Browning BAR M/1918),
3. Remington Modell four,
4. Remington modell 7400,
5. Remington 742 Woodmaster,
6. Ruger mini 14,
7. Ruger mini 30,
8. Heckler & Koch model 2000,
9. Marlin model 45,
10. Marlin model 9 camp carabine,
11. Valmet Petra,
12. Valmet Hunter,
13. Voere model 2185,
14. Vepr Super,
15. Vepr Pioneer,
16. Vepr Hunter,
17. Benelli Argo,
18. Sauer mod 303,
19. Carl Gustav 2000 light/Carl Gustav 2000 Classic Vapen,
20. Merkel SR 1,
21. Remington 750,
22. Heckler & Koch modell 770.

General restrictions are:

-No rifles in cal 50/12.7mm or more
-No pistols or revolvers in calibers over .455

Handgun restrictions:


Handguns are illegal if it has two or more of the following features:

-Magazines that are not inserted in the pistol grip
-Threaded barrel that accepts flash-hiders, barrel extensions, forward grip or silencer
-Barrel sleeve that allows the shooter to grip the barrel with the off hand without being burned (don't even know what that is)
-Telescoping stock, folding stock or fixed stock

Semi-Auto Shotgun restrictions:


Total length of minimum 840mm/33" and barrel length of minimum 400mm/15.7". Semi-Auto Shotguns are illegal if they have one of the following features:

-Only pistolgrip, no stock
-Pistolgrip protruding below stock
-Tube magazine or magazine extension allowing a magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds
-Accepts detachable box magazines

Fully automatic weapons are illegal, except for collectors. Getting a collector status is difficult.

-------------------------------------------------------

ABB purchased his Ruger Mini-14 from his hunting license, his stated reason was deer hunting. He tried getting a weapon illegally abroad, but the people he sought out didn't trust him so he gave it up. He had more trouble getting his Glock, and had to be active in Oslo Pistol Club to get them to sign off on his activity level for his application.

People (idealists and leftists) are advocating banning ALL semi-automatic firearms in Norway, based on the incident 22 July 2011. The 22 July commission recommended thath, after stating that most criminal acts involving guns are carried out with illegal weapons. Usually criminal on criminal as well. The few involving legal weapons, prior to 22 July, was usually murder/suicide of spouse/family members.

[Belmont31R]

Thanks for the reply. Doesn't sound too for bad by European standards.


Same way here regarding leftists wanting gun control. Most murders are criminal on criminal. The city of Chicago had over 500 murders last year by itself, and some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation....yet the leftists here blame the guns instead of the scum criminals. Infuriating but stopping crime isn't their motive...disarming us is.

[montrala]

Poland was considered (Small Arms Survey, I forgot year) to have strictest gun law in Europe. Our current law is straight derivative of law established by communists in 1963, in fear of possibility of armed uprising like one in Budapest, Hungary in 1956. During Stalinist times from 1945 people theoretically could freely own firearms, but usually they got just shot on sight if they did not have some sort of permit issued by communist government or "Citizens Militia", but there was lot of those permitted to allow for good training and ability do defend against American Imperialism, but in 1963 fear of "inside enemy" overcome fear of "outside enemy".

It is not about what we can have once we have firearms license, but how hard it is to get license (UK restricts what people can own, but easily allows to own unrestricted types). Up until 2011 getting it was 100% on Police discretion if they want or not to issue a licence. It changed with latest law update as this discretion was lifted from several purposes, but Police still uses this discretion to set up how many firearms one can own.

Basically one need to be 21 (even that 18 is considered adult by law), no record for criminal or fiscal (yes, taxes) offences,good physical and mental health. Then he need to fullfil set of special conditions set for differently for different types (reasons) to own firearms. I will not describe those as those are numerous and complex. If all those are fulfilled, there is theoretical and practical exam that require 100% score to pass (sport shooters and hunters have this exam embedded into their respective sporting or shooting license). Passing exam for one reason is not valid for other one. There are separate rules for companies involved in providing armed security, firearms training or firearms ranges (shooting is only allowed on certified ranges and in designated hunting areas). Also there are strict rules on storage and transportation of firearms and ammunition.

Those reasons are:

1. Sporting - rimfire up to 6mm, centerfire up to 12mm, shotguns up to 12 gauge.
2. Hunting - centerfire rifles up to 12mm (bolt action up to 20mm), shotguns up to 12 gauge
3. Collecting - any allowed in other purposes, with no right to buy ammo.
4. Souvenir - weapon not banned, that was inherited, received or a prize, permit for single, named piece.

There is one more "reason", that is still on 100% Police discretion. This reason is so called "combat gun for self defence". Basically it is CCW. Only pistols and revolvers up to 12mm are allowed. CCW holders must renew health and mental check every 5 years.

General restrictions are on full auto (only companies can own, no private persons, and those for companies are restricted to SMG up to 9mm and rifles up to 7.62mm), suppressors (banned) and ammo with core made from material harder than lead (no M855 surplus or even Russian 7.62x39 "with nail"), designed to fragment on hit or with explosive, chemical or biological agents inside.

Parts of ammunition or firearms are considered ammunition or firearms themselves (even if someone do not own complete thing, so owning for example a primer is owning illegal firearm). Illegal ownership is penalized by up to 8 years term.

Police is always pushing to restrict more. Now they want to force requirements to buy bank level safes for up to 50 pieces and to build a high level firearm warehouse over this number. To prevent guns failing into criminal hands, despite current number of guns stolen per year in whole country is under 100, while Police confiscates more that 2000 illegal firearms per year. Police is itself one of main sources of firearms for criminals, in one case Police officers transferred to mob almost 1000 P64 pistols scheduled to be melted in steel forge. Army is good source as well, but illegal firearms mostly come from former Soviet Union countries and Czech Republic.

[skullworks]

A lot of what Arctic1 wrote regarding Norway holds true for Sweden as well; I wrote a rather lengthy post about the basics in Sweden in this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=120177

Currently I have two AR-15 (a 20" and a 14,5") and various handguns (.22 up to .45ACP) for target/competition use. I also have two center-fire rifles and a shotgun for hunting.