View Full Version : Cavalry Arms raided by Feds
http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=f1170d80-1741-43e5-8000-d685e0c72b29
Feds raid Gilbert business for fraud, money laundering
Reported by: ABC15.com staff
Last Update: 12:23 pm
A Gilbert business was raided by federal officials Wednesday on suspicion of fraud and money laundering.
Officials say Calvary Gun Manufacturing was the target of the search and seizure warrant.
The business is near Copper and Guadalupe roads.
It’s unclear what officers from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms took from the business or if anyone was arrested.
variablebinary
02-27-08, 14:56
Tough break.
Guess we'll have to wait and see to determine if this was a witchhunt or valid bust
Seth Harness
02-27-08, 17:21
All I can say is - I hope the allegations are not true. Thats about all the nice things I have to say...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHzQH83aPao
I had grown tired of their anti LEO and rasists comments over the years at other boards.
That being said, from personal experience I will take whatever the media says with a grain of salt. The media and all of the facts rarely cross paths.
S/F,
Jeff
I agree Jeff, Only time will tell the real story
It sure was nice of the ATF to lay out all those nasty guns so the news cameras could get some good picks.
usaffarmer
02-27-08, 22:13
why is everything a "high powered rifle, and AK-47 or assault rifle" and who cares how many they seize other than the news. Im so sick of this type of crap.:mad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHzQH83aPao
Wow, based on that T.V. news video it doesn't like the ATF is playing around.
It sure was nice of the ATF to lay out all those nasty guns so the news cameras could get some good picks.
That was the part I did not get. Why would they have to display this and call the media?
There's more to the story here, guys. Cav had already been under tight scrutiny by the ATF for technical aspects of their lower, and how they serialized them.
I'm quite doubtful that they'd have been doing any wrong when they were already being hounded by the feds.
Another chilling fact, for those of us with a little better knowledge of the AZ gun community, is that one party has been quite silent on this topic. There's another C2 or C3 or whatever in town who has quite a shady reputation. He used to be friends with cav arms. He has his own shop on the east side of town as well. Anyway there's been bad blood between cav and this other character.
There really are a shit load of scoundrels in the AZ gun community. But I don't see any of the Cav Arms guys falling into that category.
To make a long story short, those of us with some of the story here are puzzled as to why cav arms would be raided while this other bum who always seems to be in the middle of quetionable and criminal dealings seems to always avoid federal scrutiny.
I hope they leave Rio alone.
My dealings with Cav Arms have been positive. I wish them luck.
To make a long story short, those of us with some of the story here are puzzled as to why cav arms would be raided while this other bum who always seems to be in the middle of quetionable and criminal dealings seems to always avoid federal scrutiny.
It will be interesting to learn (if we ever do) what role if any that the bum you mentioned played in this. Scumbags who get jammed-up with BATFE are not above lying about someone else to get themselves out of trouble.
It will be interesting to learn (if we ever do) what role if any that the bum you mentioned played in this. Scumbags who get jammed-up with BATFE are not above lying about someone else to get themselves out of trouble.
The thing that is very telling is that the loud mouth who never seems to get nailed by the feds is completely quite on the gun boards. VERY unlike this cock roach.
There's ALSO another shady character who used to be acquainted with the Cav guys who is now in Federal prison for fraud charges unrelated to the gun industry. He could be grasping at straws to try to lighten his load.
But again... I don't see the Cav guys being involved in any wrong doing. I really got to believe it's a bunch of crap caused by some of the other slime bags that are in the AZ gun crowd.
Last I heard the Cav Arms guys still don't know what the ATF is looking for.
I'm torn.... If Cav is in the clear, then this means this type of raid could happen to any good gun business and maybe gun owner. And that is scary. The way thing played out on the local news was cheezy.. a real dog and pony show by the ATF.... WOW! A gun manufacturor who has GUNS on the property!
But if Cav is somehow in the wrong.... I'll be disappointed too.
I'm torn.... If Cav is in the clear, then this means this type of raid could happen to any good gun business and maybe gun owner. And that is scary.
I don't have any doubts that it could happen to anyone on any day.
cactustactical
02-28-08, 12:46
The Cav Arms guys are pretty darn up right when it comes to record keeping and such, so I hope that this will all blow over.
We really will not know what is behind it until the details of the warrant are made public, which should be in the next day or so.
I think that they will get their day in court.if they are in the wrong than the ATF did the right thing in showing the weapons ,that now will be property of the BATF caused a Gun dealer did something shady.Maybe dealers will see what is possible if they get caught by the ATF.if they Have done nothing than nothing to worry about.they will get every gun back from the ATF.These raids are nothing new !why does everyone gasp:eek: .we all know the dangers of doing anything the Feds deem illegal.It sucks:mad: but if you are breaking the law,this is what happens! if you are not and this happens thats what the court system is for and you will prove your case.If CA is 100%by the books then I back them in their fight.On the other hand if they have broken the law then welcome to Club fed.A dealer here where I live got busted for haveing full-auto weapons that he converted ,he was not a class 2.
i have seen the ATF rip a friend of mine on his Kitchen table dealing.But thing about this guy was his dad was a sheriff and taught his son the right way to keep records.the police and ATF raided his house ,made it on the news with all the weapons but a week later the atf was on the same news station saying that through bad intel a raid was contucted and found that the owner was not at fault and everthing has been returned.
I was there the day it was returned all boxes with records and about 40 weapons, pistol and rifles and shotguns and two boxes of parts.if you follow the rules you can play folks:rolleyes: But my friend did sell a bunch of the guns he had .He was called a hero for standing up to the evil ATF,his comment" I just followed the rules that's it."
More Cav Arms in the news... Just FYI...
ATF Speaks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVnpykW5ncE)
More news (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDr49knjc0)
CAV Arms ad video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tobmDJBrtwQ)
More Cav Arms in the news... Just FYI...
ATF Speaks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVnpykW5ncE)
More news (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDr49knjc0)
CAV Arms ad video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tobmDJBrtwQ)
WOW I never have seen that!!!thats funny as hell I got a good laugh:D
But that is a look at me card for the ATF,that was bad judgment by CA.Lord what was they thinking?????The ATF doesn't have a sense of humor:rolleyes:
More Cav Arms in the news... Just FYI...
ATF Speaks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVnpykW5ncE)
More news (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDr49knjc0)
CAV Arms ad video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tobmDJBrtwQ)
I can't view those links at work, Buck. Can you summarize?:confused:
mark, in the first vid the ATF SA states "we allege Federal Firearms Violations at this buisiness" but does not elaborate on what said violations are. HTH. He also states that its not unusual to see such a large amount of weapons at the location since they are in fact involved in manufacturing. Not that the sheeple will get that.
"Last I heard the Cav Arms guys still don't know what the ATF is looking for."
Be interesting to see the warrant. I'm not sure how such a situation would be possible.
Vid #3 show's a semi 'babe' shooting Jihadists with an AR. Apparently the local chapeter of CAIR is all bent around the axle about it.
CAV Arms ad video
For those who condone this kind of thinking, you had BEST PRAY to ALLAH to spare your ass, or be damn glad that there were others around you who took the advice and prepared their asses to save yours.
What’s that about lack of preparedness?
True, it could offend someone by the way it was presented, but part of your freedom is respecting others freedom also.
OK, I’m off my soap box now.
END.
True, it could offend someone by the way it was presented, but part of your freedom is respecting others freedom also.
In today's politically correct/legal environment, the definition of tolerance means never to offend anyone. And the corollary would be that I demonstrate respect by not offending. Therefore, I cannot offend. Unless of course, the object of my offense is a caucasian male of European descent with Judeo/Christian beliefs, then I can offend all I want.
Jay Cunningham
02-28-08, 17:02
Let's keep this thread on track, please.
NCPatrolAR
02-28-08, 17:38
I'd like to read the warrant. Wonder if they were looking for Shemaghs?
You can take this for what its worth:
http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2008/02/cavalry-arms-update-seize-everything.html
David, do you have any contacts at Cavalry? If you do, can you get a copy of the search warrant and post it please?
I don't, but I've been corresponding behind the scenes and know Nicki is in contact with Oleg Volk, whose work is featured on the Cavalry Arms website, and Nicki tells me she and he have been in touch about this matter.
So I asked her to ask him, and just got this back:
Confirmed: nothing on the warrant other then: "Firearm law violations. Seize everything."
I don't see how that's even possible that the warrant could be worded as such.
Up to 42 pages on TOS. Don't bother, mostly it will give you a headache.
NCPatrolAR
02-28-08, 20:57
I highly doubt that was all that was on the warrant. There had to at least be one stamp of approval by a dark overlord
Is this site going to do some kind of raffle or collection drive to benefit Cav Arms?
Some may disagree with TOS and/or the Cav Arms guys... but I'm of the "If we do not hang together, we will surely hang separately" mindset. (paraphrasing of course).
Last I heard, Cav still doesn't know what this is about.
K.L. Davis
02-29-08, 07:34
You can take this for what its worth:
http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2008/02/cavalry-arms-update-seize-everything.html
I don't see how that's even possible that the warrant could be worded as such.
Up to 42 pages on TOS. Don't bother, mostly it will give you a headache.
Having taught Search Law and Rights of Arrest, as well as having served many warrants myself... I would not even execute a warrant that read like that.
Sounds like a fishing expedition, possibly based on an informants info who was trying to save his own butt?
Having taught Search Law and Rights of Arrest, as well as having served many warrants myself... I would not even execute a warrant that read like that.
You have to ask... What's the downside for the ATF if they're completely in the wrong? Not much. They're in the unique position of being able to execute shakey warrants and bully folks with little accountability for their actions.
Any one of us could have our guns layed out on tables for the media to take pics of. And we'd be portrayed as militia type nuts, and the public would assume that all the weapons displayed were illegal military arms.
Just my belief but anytime I see a warrant served with no arrests of involved parties I question the validity of the activity. The ATF/Media dog and pony show also suggests they are stretching.
I hope Shawn pulls out of this, I've done several transactions with him and his shit was wired on tight.
Is this site going to do some kind of raffle or collection drive to benefit Cav Arms? Some may disagree with TOS and/or the Cav Arms guys... but I'm of the "If we do not hang together, we will surely hang separately" mindset. (paraphrasing of course).
Seems premature.
I have no dog in the fight, but I've written and served a SW or two. The comment about what's in the warrant is likely a sarcastic summary. Such a warrant wouldn't be issued, even by the judges that don't read the affidavits.
I haven't read the thread at the TOS. Has the affidavit been sealed? Has anyone requested a copy from the clerk in that district?
Warrants can be weak, but they'll have foundation. A warrant served on a manufacturer surely had additional QC applied.
I'd like to see the chest thumping over JBTs steamrolling over helpless individuals lighten up a little until there's more data.
I'd like to see the chest thumping over JBTs steamrolling over helpless individuals lighten up a little until there's more data.
I hear what you're saying. Some of those goofballs go overboard. But with CavArms, most people agree that they're about the last guys in the industry you'd expect this to happen to.
There is no way the warrant read exactly the way it was relayed here. I can't imagine any federal agent being dumb enough to submit one that way, and certainly no magistrate would sign off on it. "Seize everything" doesn't come close to passing Constitutional muster.
Just because there were no arrests doesn't mean there was no wrong doing or that nothing was found. In many cases, a search of a business involves taking tons of documentation (including computer files, books, etc.) and then spending weeks or months going over it all.
I have absolutely no idea what precipitated this search. For all I know, CA is completely innocent of whatever accusations have been raised. But without further information (and when the info coming out in favor of CA is clearly non-sensical), it seems unreasonable to assume that this was just the Big Bad ATF Wolf looking for a media blast.
it seems unreasonable to assume that this was just the Big Bad ATF Wolf looking for a media blast.
Part of me wants you to be right. But then that would mean that there was something bad going on at cav, and that would be a bummer. :(
I still have to think that one of the other local scum bags is making false accusations. You'd have to see some of these jokers to believe what kind of tripe we have in the smaller gun companies here in town.
Having taught Search Law and Rights of Arrest, as well as having served many warrants myself... I would not even execute a warrant that read like that.
Good seeing you back here dude!
Ya, something ain't right with the whole account we are getting, obviously. I highly doubt that is all the warrant says. Highly.
Max Collins
02-29-08, 12:36
Where there's smoke, there's usually fire. They were in bed with Warren of Ameetec, who has already proven to be a scumbag and felon. Why is everyone so quick to come to the conclusion that they are being railroaded?
All those people on TOS lining up to donate hundreds of dollars and buying scores of Cav lowers for the cause will feel mighty stupid if it turns out they have indeed been committing criminal acts.
I have no idea if they are guilty or innocent. Hell, I don't even know what they supposedly did. But I sure as hell am not going to give away my cash without knowing something first.
Part of me wants you to be right. But then that would mean that there was something bad going on at cav, and that would be a bummer. :(
Just like I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that ATF was in the wrong, neither would I jump to the conclusion that Cav Arms was in the wrong. There is a whole spectrum of possibilities here.
Jay Cunningham
02-29-08, 12:44
Everything regarding this topic is absolute speculation at this point. I'm locking this until we get some new verifiable info. If somebody gets their hands on some firsthand info, they can PM me and I'll unlock the thread.
Jay Cunningham
02-16-10, 09:04
Dear Friends and Loyal Customers:
As you may be aware, we have been engaged in an ongoing dispute with the ATF for the past two years. While Cavalry Arms has at all times tried its best to run a lawful and honest shop, unfortunately, some regulatory compliance mistakes were made. We have now come to the point where we feel it is in our best interest to close our FFL and to cease all firearms operations. The owner of Cavalry Arms, Shawn Nealon, has elected to leave the firearms business and concentrate on firearms accessories instead. We are currently in negotiations with another company for that company to purchase the CAV-15 product line. Rest assured that any resulting purchase agreement will address the issue of providing service and support with regard to existing CAV-15 firearm products. We will continue to manufacture quality plastic components, grow our Medical products line, and work to bring new innovations to the relevant markets. Over the next several weeks we will be conducting a wind-down of our firearms manufacturing and FFL operations. Accordingly, please do not send us any firearms for repair or replacement. Instead, such issues should be addressed to the ultimate purchaser of our assets. Due to our limited personnel resources, during this transition/operation wind-down period, the final processing and shipping of firearm receivers already in our inventory will be our first priority.
We deeply appreciate your patience and understanding and anticipate that the relevant asset purchaser will begin operations in March of 2010. We sincerely thank you for your prior and ongoing support during these troubled times and look forward to better years ahead.
Thank you,
Cavalry Arms
If I say I'm going to unlock a thread when there is new info then you can rest assured that it will happen - even if two years goes by.
;)
From the letter:
While Cavalry Arms has at all times tried its best to run a lawful and honest shop, unfortunately, some regulatory compliance mistakes were made. We have now come to the point where we feel it is in our best interest to close our FFL and to cease all firearms operations. The owner of Cavalry Arms, Shawn Nealon, has elected to leave the firearms business and concentrate on firearms accessories instead.
One could read that this was a deal made for surrender of the FFL in lieu of further penalty or prosecution. Not unprecedented.
While Cavalry Arms has at all times tried its best to run a lawful and honest shop, unfortunately, some regulatory compliance mistakes were made.
That sounds like it's either the BATFE making a mountain out of a molehill, or Cavarms trying to make light of a big deal.
Hmm.. All the links and videos posted above have been yanked down.
I wonder exactly what regulatory compliance mistakes were made... not for any real reason, just personal curiosity.
Though I have never dealt with Cav Arms, it sucks to hear anyone loose job like I am sure most of their employees did.
Interesting. I spoke with them at SHOT for a couple minutes and at that time they had no more info and I told them I would check next year at SHOT and they just laughed...
tracker722
02-16-10, 16:44
It's a shame they bailed, but best of luck to them.
Hey...does that make my Cav Arms lower a collector's item now?
I read the ATF report several months back when the case was unsealed for a period. Pretty heavy duty stuff. But who knows how much of it was true.
Edit: In forfeiture, you apparently have to beat every single allegation. It's all or nothing.
That sounds like it's either the BATFE making a mountain out of a molehill, or Cavarms trying to make light of a big deal.
Considering how accusations of money laundering and similar things were originally being thrown around, I'd say ATF found some compliance violations and from what I understand this was things like careless errors on 4473s when they did transfers for people.
This is the kind of thing they should write you up and possibly fine you for. Not put you out of business because they made a mountain out of a molehill and couldn't find anything to substantiate their grandiose claims.
Belmont31R
02-16-10, 19:01
Considering how accusations of money laundering and similar things were originally being thrown around, I'd say ATF found some compliance violations and from what I understand this was things like careless errors on 4473s when they did transfers for people.
This is the kind of thing they should write you up and possibly fine you for. Not put you out of business because they made a mountain out of a molehill and couldn't find anything to substantiate their grandiose claims.
I say the ATF should hold FFL's to the same level of accountability the feds have, and that includes the billions of dollars a year in spending they cannot account for.
Me thinks if it was anything too serious they would have been put out of business a long time ago, and they would not have been allowed to keep making firearms for 2 years now.
Considering how accusations of money laundering and similar things were originally being thrown around, I'd say ATF found some compliance violations and from what I understand this was things like careless errors on 4473s when they did transfers for people.
This is the kind of thing they should write you up and possibly fine you for. Not put you out of business because they made a mountain out of a molehill and couldn't find anything to substantiate their grandiose claims.
The charges were much more serious than 4473 errors and would have shut all the "screw the ATF" tards over on ARFcom up in a minute.
There were guys listed by name in the report who weren't even Cav employees. I can remember asking "where is so and so?" on ARF. They quit posting. Come to find out that so and so was specifically named by the ATF and split the gun scene completely.
Hopefully Cav can find a niche making accessories. They're good guys, but they have nobody to blame for this but themselves.
The charges were much more serious than 4473 errors and would have shut all the "screw the ATF" tards over on ARFcom up in a minute.
There were guys listed by name in the report who weren't even Cav employees. I can remember asking "where is so and so?" on ARF. They quit posting. Come to find out that so and so was specifically named by the ATF and split the gun scene completely.
Hopefully Cav can find a niche making accessories. They're good guys, but they have nobody to blame for this but themselves.
The charges were more serious, I'm talking about the actual found infractions though. From what I understand the discovered violations were compliance errors.
The charges were more serious, I'm talking about the actual found infractions though. From what I understand the discovered violations were compliance errors.
Yeah... compliance with the law.
The more serious violations would have easily been defended if they were not true.
Considering how accusations of money laundering and similar things were originally being thrown around, I'd say ATF found some compliance violations and from what I understand this was things like careless errors on 4473s when they did transfers for people.
This is the kind of thing they should write you up and possibly fine you for. Not put you out of business because they made a mountain out of a molehill and couldn't find anything to substantiate their grandiose claims.
Depending on the mistakes you could get a warning letter, a not so fun sit down with the ATF, or they can revoke your FFL. The funny part is different inspectors judge things differently.
Yeah... compliance with the law.
The more serious violations would have easily been defended if they were not true.
Hardly the case. First off all these things costs LOTS of money. The govt. can use tax dollars and wait years, private citizens cannot. Additionally, all the govt. has to do is come up with a list of violations they can support with evidence. It really makes no difference if they are all paperwork errors or things like that, they can if they decide turn those minor things into a winning case that costs time and money and possibly somebodies freedom.
And this is why when faced with a situation like this you see a lot of guys fold up shop and call it a day.
But if you have something that proves they did anything beyond what I described, by all means present it. But lacking that you are just bad mouthing some really good people.
Hardly the case. First off all these things costs LOTS of money. The govt. can use tax dollars and wait years, private citizens cannot. Additionally, all the govt. has to do is come up with a list of violations they can support with evidence. It really makes no difference if they are all paperwork errors or things like that, they can if they decide turn those minor things into a winning case that costs time and money and possibly somebodies freedom.
And this is why when faced with a situation like this you see a lot of guys fold up shop and call it a day.
But if you have something that proves they did anything beyond what I described, by all means present it. But lacking that you are just bad mouthing some really good people.
Bullshit! It does not work that way. The Government does not have years, especially when you are talking criminal charges. in most cases they can only work within the statute of limitations of the particular offense. When it comes to the vast majority of federal felonies you are only talking five years. Case Agents seldom have that much time to spare, the case loads are too heavy for that. There is pressure from management to move on to the next case. Neither do the AUSA's who would try the case have that kind of time to waste. You find an offense, you take it to the AUSA and they decide whether or not they accept it for prosecution. There are only so many slots on the court calendar, there is a hierarchy and a vetting process and sometimes even a committee within the U.S Attorney's Office that decides whether or not the case is even accepted for prosecution. Many good cases die right there just because some other case from some other agency is sexier, with more jury or press appeal; you just move on to the next one. Many are filed away until the SOL gets close, then they are dusted off. If the documentation is good and the evidence is there, they might go to the Grand Jury. If a case has made it past the AUSA, the Grand Jury to indictment, you can rest assured that the evidence is there to win at trial. The federal systems likes slam dunks. It likes plea deals. If there is a plea the evidence was there to win at trial, overwhelmingly, and the defense counsel originated the deal and negotiated the plea.
Littlelebowski
02-17-10, 10:29
Where there's smoke, there's usually fire. They were in bed with Warren of Ameetec, who has already proven to be a scumbag and felon. Why is everyone so quick to come to the conclusion that they are being railroaded?
Because those of us that have dealt with them know the measure of their character.
RancidSumo
02-17-10, 12:01
markm, do you have anything to back what you are saying? It seems to me that there are a few companies that you hate for some reason and never miss an opportunity to bash them but never support anything you say.
If you actually do have some information that shows that the ATF was in the right on this one, I'm sure we would like love to see it.
ForTehNguyen
02-17-10, 12:04
I was interested in a polymer lower/stock too :(
Littlelebowski
02-17-10, 12:07
Yeah... compliance with the law.
The more serious violations would have easily been defended if they were not true.
Never mind the legal costs, getting with their lives, etc, eh?
Regardless of whether they did something wrong or not I think the question is how long should this be allowed to continue without formal charges being filed?
Bullshit! It does not work that way. The Government does not have years, especially when you are talking criminal charges. in most cases they can only work within the statute of limitations of the particular offense. When it comes to the vast majority of federal felonies you are only talking five years. Case Agents seldom have that much time to spare, the case loads are too heavy for that. There is pressure from management to move on to the next case. Neither do the AUSA's who would try the case have that kind of time to waste. You find an offense, you take it to the AUSA and they decide whether or not they accept it for prosecution. There are only so many slots on the court calendar, there is a hierarchy and a vetting process and sometimes even a committee within the U.S Attorney's Office that decides whether or not the case is even accepted for prosecution. Many good cases die right there just because some other case from some other agency is sexier, with more jury or press appeal; you just move on to the next one. Many are filed away until the SOL gets close, then they are dusted off. If the documentation is good and the evidence is there, they might go to the Grand Jury. If a case has made it past the AUSA, the Grand Jury to indictment, you can rest assured that the evidence is there to win at trial. The federal systems likes slam dunks. It likes plea deals. If there is a plea the evidence was there to win at trial, overwhelmingly, and the defense counsel originated the deal and negotiated the plea.
Bullshit right back. First off...five years is plenty of time to bleed somebody out.
I've seen it before, more than once. I can think of about a dozen guys who have been run out of business in the last 30 years. Many of them on some truly bullshit stuff.
There is the way the government is supposed to do things, and there is the way it sometimes happens.
http://www.saysuncle.com/2010/02/17/sabre-defence-raided/
http://www.nashvillepost.com/news/2010/2/17/feds_raid_defense_contractor
WOW what's up?
But if you have something that proves they did anything beyond what I described, by all means present it. But lacking that you are just bad mouthing some really good people.
I'm not bad mouthing shit. I'm just explaining that I READ THE ****ING ATF's COMPLAINT. I'm not sure what is so complicated about this. :confused:
I'm not on bad terms with ANYONE from CAV. Shit! I was invited to the Christmas party this past December. I don't know how much of what the FED's are saying is true.
I have not agenda in this thing. I'm only explaining that the Complaint was not pretty.
Jay Cunningham
02-17-10, 16:58
Tone down the rhetoric or this thread will get locked.
If you actually do have some information that shows that the ATF was in the right on this one, I'm sure we would like love to see it.
I ONLY READ THE COMPLAINT! I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF IT IS TRUE.
I have absolutely no beef with the guys from Cavarms.
1. If Cav wants to release specifics, that is their business. I'm not saying ANY of it is true. I don't know that! I just know what the Feds say.
2. Even though what I read was unsealed at the time, I don't think it would be wise to expose myself or this site to legal backlash on the particulars of the case.
Note that Sabre, a business partner with Cav got raided too.
I'm not bad mouthing shit. I'm just explaining that I READ THE ****ING ATF's COMPLAINT. I'm not sure what is so complicated about this. :confused:
I'm not on bad terms with ANYONE from CAV. Shit! I was invited to the Christmas party this past December. I don't know how much of what the FED's are saying is true.
I have not agenda in this thing. I'm only explaining that the Complaint was not pretty.
The complaint is NOT a proven conclusion.
The fact that Cav Arms said "**** it" doesn't mean anything on the complaint actually happened.
And your statement "I don't know how much of what the FED's are saying is true." is pretty much the entire point I was trying to make.
Having said it, we are now on the same page. I believed you were insinuating everything on the complaint was true or probably true. As you have cleared that up we are now on the same page.
I read the ATF report several months back when the case was unsealed for a period. Pretty heavy duty stuff. But who knows how much of it was true.
Edit: In forfeiture, you apparently have to beat every single allegation. It's all or nothing.
Mark, don't believe everything you read. If you wanted to know, you could just call (my number is still the same)...
Littlelebowski
02-17-10, 20:13
I'm glad CavArms is getting on and hopefully landing on their feet. Not happy about the solution to getting the feds off their backs but I hope all of the employees can continue on with the company and GarryOwens gets all of his personal possessions back.
article was here
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/02/22/20100222guns-gilbert.html
Gilbert firearms maker admits to illegal sale of weapons
A Gilbert firearms manufacturer will cease its gun operations after the company's owner pleaded guilty to illegally selling rifles, shotguns and handguns.
Cavalry Arms Corp. says on its Web site that it has been "engaged in an ongoing dispute" with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, for two years over "regulatory and compliance mistakes."
But in federal court last week, owner Shawn Nealon admitted that he and his company illegally sold as many as 40 weapons to an out-of state buyer, and he voluntarily surrendered his federal firearms licenses, meaning Cavalry will no longer be able to import, manufacture or deal in weapons or ammunition.
"This is not some individual setting up a stand at a gun show," U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke said Friday. "These are the preliminary steps that individuals take to get around federal laws in order to traffic in illegal firearms."
Although none of the Cavalry guns has been linked to a crime, Burke said such cases are a particular concern for the agency.
Illegal-firearms sales are steadily increasing in Arizona, with much of the market driven by demand in Mexico, said Burke, the U.S. attorney for Arizona.
"The activity - southbound guns into Mexico - is very robust," he said. "We have (several) very active investigations going on now."
Nealon's lawyer, Mark Vincent of Chandler, called the charges against his client ridiculous.
"This is by no means a great victory for the government," he said, describing federal gun regulations as arcane. "In my opinion, no gun dealer in the United States could comply with the myriad of regulations. . . . It's almost impossible to determine what the law is."
Vincent said as much as 90 percent of the government's original case against Cavalry was dismissed, leaving his client pleading guilty to selling to an out-of-state buyer.
"It's a minor problem. . . . If that had been the only (charge), I don't know that they would have bothered with it," he said, adding: "Nobody was hurt. Nobody was almost hurt."
Nealon faces up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine when he is sentenced in April.
But authorities say the bigger victory in this case is stripping Nealon of his firearms license.
Cavalry's primary gun operation involved creating a polymer mold of a part for the AR-15 semiautomatic rifle. The "lower receiver," the piece between the barrel and the stock, contains the firing mechanism. It is defined by the government as a firearm. The receivers were sold to the public and to other manufacturers for commercial and law-enforcement use.
According to a memo from Cavalry's lawyers included in court documents, Cavalry employed six people and sold as many as 6,000 receivers between 2000 and 2006.
In a criminal complaint in 2008, ATF agents accused Nealon of illegal-weapons manufacturing for making the receivers. In addition, he was accused of illegal sales and export of other guns and possession of unlicensed firearms.
"To cover up this widespread illegal activity, Cavalry Arms and Nealon have failed to keep records, falsified records and lied to ATF," the complaint states.
The ATF cited violations dating to 2000, including failure to keep a weapons inventory, failure to conduct background checks on at least 25 purchasers and failure to report a multiple-handgun sale.
Another problem: The ATF said Cavalry had outsourced the production of its molded receivers to an unlicensed company.
Following a search of Cavalry's offices and Nealon's Mesa home in 2008, agents said Nealon had illegally sold weapons to out-of-state buyers, more than 40 of those to a California resident who often stored those weapons at Nealon's home.
Those weapons included: nine 9mm handguns, five .45-caliber handguns, five .22-caliber handguns, five .223 rifles, three 12-gauge shotguns, two .38-caliber handguns, two .44-caliber handguns, a .380-caliber handgun, a .308 rifle, a 7.62x39mm rifle, a 5.45x39mm rifle and a .357 rifle.
"Given Cavalry Arms' . . . willingness to falsify records to cover up illegal activities, including illegal sales, it is difficult, if not impossible, to determine exactly how many illegal sales Cavalry Arms and Nealon have made to out-of-state residents," the criminal complaint states.
Nealon on Friday referred questions about the case to his lawyer. But he said Cavalry is not shutting its doors.
He said the company will sell off its inventory of weapons, which it will be allowed to do with ATF oversight, and concentrate on developing firearm accessories and medical products.
"The firearms portion of our business doesn't make up a large part of what we do," Nealon said.
However, news of the shutdown prompted posts of outrage and well-wishes on Cavalry's Web page.
"CavArms has some righteous dudes working there and the ATF has screwed you over since they don't have the guts to take on street and prison gangs," one person said in an online post.
Burke had another take on the subject.
"This isn't the first or the last time a defendant is going to try and redefine his culpability," the U.S. attorney said. "For the rest of the gun industry, it's a sign to other bad actors that we are going to focus on them."
The ATF cited violations dating to 2000, including failure to keep a weapons inventory, failure to conduct background checks on at least 25 purchasers and failure to report a multiple-handgun sale.
this sounds like typical paperwork problems at all kinds of FFLs.
Another problem: The ATF said Cavalry had outsourced the production of its molded receivers to an unlicensed company.
I seem to recall some discussion of this on TSO. IIRC, the way that Cavarms started was that one of the principal's parents owned a molding company, and the theory was that they could mold the halves as long as the sonic welding was moved the Cavarms's shop. guess that didn't turn out too well.
Following a search of Cavalry's offices and Nealon's Mesa home in 2008, agents said Nealon had illegally sold weapons to out-of-state buyers, more than 40 of those to a California resident who often stored those weapons at Nealon's home.
Those weapons included: nine 9mm handguns, five .45-caliber handguns, five .22-caliber handguns, five .223 rifles, three 12-gauge shotguns, two .38-caliber handguns, two .44-caliber handguns, a .380-caliber handgun, a .308 rifle, a 7.62x39mm rifle, a 5.45x39mm rifle and a .357 rifle.
That sounds like really bad juju. Wonder if the CA "owner" was an arfcomer, and if he's in any trouble himself.
That sounds like really bad juju. Wonder if the CA "owner" was an arfcomer, and if he's in any trouble himself.
A lot of CA guys establish an out of state residence just for this purpose. I suspect Shawn catered to one of these guys and worked out a deal where the rifles were at Shawns place rather than at the most unoccupied second residence.
Personally I wouldn't do that for anyone, but a lot of dealers bordering Cali do this stuff all the time. I also got to wonder if a 4473 was done, and if it wasn't then the weapons were never actually transferred and thus no law broken, and if NICS gave an approval code.
In either case it is BS.
Either there was no 4473 and NICS check in which case some CA guy paid for the "use" of some rifles which never went to CA and seemed to stay in the possession of the Cav Arms owner.
Or a 4473 and NICS was done and approved and Shawn did nothing more than store some weapons for somebody.
Doesn't sound like any guns went to CA. And this, along with all the paperwork violations is a far cry from the original accusations of unregistered machine guns, money laundering and things like that.
Belmont31R
02-22-10, 15:25
Sounds like another case of 'its only illegal because we say it is' and not that anyone was actually hurt by his actions. Is there a 'victim' here?
I don't particularly agree with most laws like this so I don't think anything negatively about what happened as reported.
I hope the sentencing goes favorable for Cav... :(
I don't have any documentation for what I am about to say so take it with a grain of salt however I heard it from a person that is friends with the owner of Cav arms.
Supposedly many of the charges were due to improper handling of warranty repairs of NFA registered lowers.
Once again, this is third hand info so don't flame me if it's not 100% however I trust the person the info came from.
A lot of CA guys establish an out of state residence just for this purpose. I suspect Shawn catered to one of these guys and worked out a deal where the rifles were at Shawns place rather than at the most unoccupied second residence.
Personally I wouldn't do that for anyone, but a lot of dealers bordering Cali do this stuff all the time. I also got to wonder if a 4473 was done, and if it wasn't then the weapons were never actually transferred and thus no law broken, and if NICS gave an approval code.
In either case it is BS.
Either there was no 4473 and NICS check in which case some CA guy paid for the "use" of some rifles which never went to CA and seemed to stay in the possession of the Cav Arms owner.
Or a 4473 and NICS was done and approved and Shawn did nothing more than store some weapons for somebody.
Doesn't sound like any guns went to CA. And this, along with all the paperwork violations is a far cry from the original accusations of unregistered machine guns, money laundering and things like that.
That is certainly one way, favorable to Cav, of looking at it.
Nobody on the internet is ever going to know the truth. I do not for a second believe that all this is over someone mis-filing a 4473 but I also don't think there was likely any intentional or malicious bad acting.
However, knowing what pretty much everyone even tangentially involved in the gun bidness does about the BATFE, you have to be nuts not to make accurate recordkeeping your A#1 priority.
I have always "liked" the Cav guys (as much as you can like someone you see post on the interweb), I remember when they first posted prototype pictures on barf, but they always struck me as rather goofy and not the best of businessmen, which is likely what really led to all their problems now.
some things stand out to me and scare me a bit with the way things are going
"This is not some individual setting up a stand at a gun show," U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke said Friday. "These are the preliminary steps that individuals take to get around federal laws in order to traffic in illegal firearms."
NO sadly he wont be at gun shows anymore as a small business owner pursuing the American dream thanks to you types !!!!!
the preliminary steps ??? trafficking ???? some big scary speculation on their part
Although none of the Cavalry guns has been linked to a crime, Burke said such cases are a particular concern for the agency.
OH but we in the GOV no better and will stop this from happening and it might happen and well we are going to control you anyway we can
Illegal-firearms sales are steadily increasing in Arizona, with much of the market driven by demand in Mexico, said Burke, the U.S. attorney for Arizona.
well then I guess you really should do something about immigration and border control !!! PROBLEM SOLVED
but its so much easier to throw our good people in jail then go after the real problem
"The activity - southbound guns into Mexico - is very robust," he said. "We have (several) very active investigations going on now."
but they will stay that way as we are making a ton of money off them and heck its job security for us !!!
my real thought is they can stop it if they want !!
when are they going to go after car manufactures for making cars that have spaces to smuggle goods in and out of the country !!!
sadly the gov agencies some of them in the political arena/level have so much power to destroy lives and they seem to enjoy using them on the easy targets rather than the real problems pat themselves on the back and say see we took these guys and guns off the street that might have committed crimes
while the real guys committing the crimes just keep on doing so
That is certainly one way, favorable to Cav, of looking at it.
Nobody on the internet is ever going to know the truth. I do not for a second believe that all this is over someone mis-filing a 4473 but I also don't think there was likely any intentional or malicious bad acting.
However, knowing what pretty much everyone even tangentially involved in the gun bidness does about the BATFE, you have to be nuts not to make accurate recordkeeping your A#1 priority.
I have always "liked" the Cav guys (as much as you can like someone you see post on the interweb), I remember when they first posted prototype pictures on barf, but they always struck me as rather goofy and not the best of businessmen, which is likely what really led to all their problems now.
I have some bias for sure, but that is because I know them personally and don't believe they knowingly did anything illegal.
I also know it is pretty easy to wave a bunch of paperwork violations in front of 12 people who know nothing about being an FFL beyond what the prosecutor tell them and have them see a criminal.
A bit more detail here than in the news article; it isn't pretty.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/az/press_releases/2010/2010-026(CavalryArms).pdf
"I also know it is pretty easy to wave a bunch of paperwork violations in front of 12 people who know nothing about being an FFL beyond what the prosecutor tell them and have them see a criminal. "
That never happened. NEALON pleaded guilty to the trial judge.
Belmont31R
02-22-10, 23:56
A bit more detail here than in the news article; it isn't pretty.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/az/press_releases/2010/2010-026(CavalryArms).pdf
"I also know it is pretty easy to wave a bunch of paperwork violations in front of 12 people who know nothing about being an FFL beyond what the prosecutor tell them and have them see a criminal. "
That never happened. NEALON pleaded guilty to the trial judge.
Like I said their "crime" was doing something against the law thats a law only because they say so, and doesn't actually have a victim or any negative effect on anything.
Whoopty do he sold some guns to someone with a license that had CA instead of AZ on it.....oh the horror!!!
I also love how they throw in some BS about guns going to Mexico. Thats the new buzz phrase the ATF is using to justify enforcing stupid ass laws for crimes that have no impact on anything.
I lost count, help me out, how many drug cartels trafficking guns across the border were busted up last year? How many biker gangs running guns and drugs?
They should team up with OJ in their relentless pursuit of violent criminals who are a threat to Americans.
BTW, I bought a Cav Arms C6 handguard and it is good quality. Fit perfectly on my new BCM upper which I took to the range today. :)
John_Wayne777
02-23-10, 07:05
I lost count, help me out, how many drug cartels trafficking guns across the border were busted up last year?
That's probably what a lot of this hullabaloo is about. It's not exactly a secret that the ATF is looking to do something about the gun problem in Mexico and so everybody is getting more scrutiny. Personally I think it's beyond absurd for an agency of our government to get worked up over what was essentially a PR move by the Mexican government to distract from the criminal elements they do nothing to restrain from showing up in our country where they deal drugs, commit violent crimes, and force 10 year olds into sex slavery servicing illegal immigrant populations to pay off their "debt" for being smuggled into the country...but hey. Nobody in the federal government cares what I think.
I'm not terribly fond of the ATF giving all of us the stink-eye to sooth the hurt feelings of the corrupt Mexican government...but again, nobody in the federal government gives a damn what I think.
I have some bias for sure, but that is because I know them personally and don't believe they knowingly did anything illegal.
My initial take, or what I want to believe, is the same. You and I will never know the truth. They may be maliciously breaking the law and they may be the "victim" of stepped-up enforcement for the press worried about Mexican gun-runners.
However...
Like I said their "crime" was doing something against the law thats a law only because they say so, and doesn't actually have a victim or any negative effect on anything.
You may be entirely correct, but taken from a different perspective...
The Cavarms boys KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY entered into a business where they new regulation and paperwork were the order of the day, and the slightest deviation could be woven into a web just such as they find themselves in today. They also knowingly, eventually, were operating in a gray area whereby (IIRC) the molding AND sonic welding was initially done offsite, and eventually the molding was done at that facility while the sonic welding was done on-site. They KNEW that they were under scrutiny from the word go. Right, wrong, moral, immoral, the laws and regulation did not just crop up over night.
Yet in this environment they still engaged in at least questionable acts (the whole CA buyer thing) as well as appear to have been unable to maintain the records required by the (unjust, unconstitutional, illegal, immoral, etc.) law.
I cannot help but wonder at the decision-making processes and abilities in play here. FFL paperwork may be onerous but it ain't rocket surgery, and unlike something like federal income tax where you are required to play in their pool, Cavarms jumped in voluntarily. If you don't want to, or are unable to, maintain good recordkeeping then manufacturing firearms is probably not the right business to go into.
Again, I want to believe that Cavarms were just victims of their own bad decisions and bad recordkeeping and were not out to act maliciously. The CA buyer thing is something way to easy to point to as a way to call this into question, and at best goes to their poor decision making abilities. However, nobody posting here will ever know. It may just be a bunch of 4473s that are missing the dates, and it may well be supplying Mongols & Hells Angels to transport guns across the border. I suspect it's somewhere in between, and I hope that it's closer to the former than the latter.
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse". If you think that law is "wrong" then you either work within the system to change it or you rebel, ignore it, and accept your lumps and take your consequences when the ride is over. That's not the case here, and crying "that shouldn't even be illegal anyway" is a red herring at best. The fact is that it IS ILLEGAL, and they appear to have broken that law by their own admission whether accidentally or intentionally.
That's probably what a lot of this hullabaloo is about. It's not exactly a secret that the ATF is looking to do something about the gun problem in Mexico and so everybody is getting more scrutiny. Personally I think it's beyond absurd for an agency of our government to get worked up over what was essentially a PR move by the Mexican government to distract from the criminal elements they do nothing to restrain from showing up in our country where they deal drugs, commit violent crimes, and force 10 year olds into sex slavery servicing illegal immigrant populations to pay off their "debt" for being smuggled into the country...but hey. Nobody in the federal government cares what I think.
I'm not terribly fond of the ATF giving all of us the stink-eye to sooth the hurt feelings of the corrupt Mexican government...but again, nobody in the federal government gives a damn what I think.
I wonder if that is the case or not. The Mexico thing seems to really be a big news-maker only in the last year or so. Hasn't this Cavarms fiasco been going on for two? three?
Which isn't to say that the feds didn't find themselves knee-deep in an investigation for other reasons and decide mid-stream to make it news-worthy by hyping the Mexico connection.
NCPatrolAR
02-23-10, 13:31
The ATF has been working gun-running cases for years and long before the whole Mexcio thing came about. They continue to work these cases even if there isnt a Mexico tie-in.
That never happened. NEALON pleaded guilty to the trial judge.
I'm saying that could have happened, so that might explain the plea.
Belmont31R
02-23-10, 14:00
My initial take, or what I want to believe, is the same. You and I will never know the truth. They may be maliciously breaking the law and they may be the "victim" of stepped-up enforcement for the press worried about Mexican gun-runners.
However...
You may be entirely correct, but taken from a different perspective...
The Cavarms boys KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY entered into a business where they new regulation and paperwork were the order of the day, and the slightest deviation could be woven into a web just such as they find themselves in today. They also knowingly, eventually, were operating in a gray area whereby (IIRC) the molding AND sonic welding was initially done offsite, and eventually the molding was done at that facility while the sonic welding was done on-site. They KNEW that they were under scrutiny from the word go. Right, wrong, moral, immoral, the laws and regulation did not just crop up over night.
Yet in this environment they still engaged in at least questionable acts (the whole CA buyer thing) as well as appear to have been unable to maintain the records required by the (unjust, unconstitutional, illegal, immoral, etc.) law.
I cannot help but wonder at the decision-making processes and abilities in play here. FFL paperwork may be onerous but it ain't rocket surgery, and unlike something like federal income tax where you are required to play in their pool, Cavarms jumped in voluntarily. If you don't want to, or are unable to, maintain good recordkeeping then manufacturing firearms is probably not the right business to go into.
Again, I want to believe that Cavarms were just victims of their own bad decisions and bad recordkeeping and were not out to act maliciously. The CA buyer thing is something way to easy to point to as a way to call this into question, and at best goes to their poor decision making abilities. However, nobody posting here will ever know. It may just be a bunch of 4473s that are missing the dates, and it may well be supplying Mongols & Hells Angels to transport guns across the border. I suspect it's somewhere in between, and I hope that it's closer to the former than the latter.
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse". If you think that law is "wrong" then you either work within the system to change it or you rebel, ignore it, and accept your lumps and take your consequences when the ride is over. That's not the case here, and crying "that shouldn't even be illegal anyway" is a red herring at best. The fact is that it IS ILLEGAL, and they appear to have broken that law by their own admission whether accidentally or intentionally.
I just take issue with laws that have no victim, and no immediate negative impact on society.....then prosecute these laws as felonies where people get sent to prison for years.
If an FFL cannot keep accurate records then just pull their license.
If they sold across state lines at most it should be a misdemeanor.
Felonies should be reserved for crimes with victims, and crimes that have a large negative impact on society. I can go beat my wife, and it will be a misdemeanor domestic violence case. But if I had a barrel that didn't have a weld on the flash hider to make it 16" I could face 10 years in jail?
I don't feel sorry for them because it was their choice to do whatever they did. I am however upset that such petty acts bring about such a huge reaction from the gov just because it pertains to guns. There are pedophiles raping little kids who can get less jail time than someone facing some dumbass gun charges for record keeping errors, etc.
And yes they should have kept themselves on the up and up if they did not expect this to happen or at the very least accept it as a possibility.
I'd like to see the ATF go after "criminals" that actually do have a negative impact on society. The gov can spend millions going after Cav Arms but cannot manage to do much about the millions of illegal aliens and drugs that come across the border. Gangs still run rampant in cities. Not as a "cop out" argument but Id genuinely like to see more enforcement in things that really do make a difference in society. Then the government would have a little bit more "moral authority" in these types of cases.
I'd like to see the ATF go after "criminals" that actually do have a negative impact on society. The gov can spend millions going after Cav Arms but cannot manage to do much about the millions of illegal aliens and drugs that come across the border. Gangs still run rampant in cities. Not as a "cop out" argument but Id genuinely like to see more enforcement in things that really do make a difference in society. Then the government would have a little bit more "moral authority" in these types of cases.
I do not disagree. The "it shouldn't be illegal" is a hot-button for me and I wanted to vent a little. :D
In some ways the BATFE can't win. They've investigated things, and been involved in cases, in the past where everyone asks "how the hell does this involve the BATFE?"
We have so many federal agencies now, with so much overlap and jurisdiction, yet things like 9/11 and the pantie-bomber still occur.
I found this (http://www.atf.gov/about/mission/) funny & scary all at once
ATF’s Mission
We are ATF.
A unique law enforcement agency in the United States Department of Justice that protects our communities from violent criminals, criminal organizations, the illegal use and trafficking of firearms, the illegal use and storage of explosives, acts of arson and bombings, acts of terrorism, and the illegal diversion of alcohol and tobacco products. We partner with communities, industries, law enforcement, and public safety agencies to safeguard the public we serve through information sharing, training, research, and use of technology.
ATF’s Vision
We Are ATF — A dedicated team securing America’s future by accomplishing a critical mission today.
We Protect America.
We Protect Your Community.
ATF’s Values
We value our people and those we serve.
We value professionalism, integrity, diversity, commitment, innovation, and excellence.
We value partnerships that promote the safety of our communities.
I'm saying that could have happened, so that might explain the plea.
How many criminal trials have you seen from start to finish?
Do you really think that an AUSA can just "wave a bunch of paperwork" in front of a jury and get them to do whatever he wants? Did Cavalry Arms use a blow-up doll as its attorney?
In my experience, innocent people do not plead guilty to felonies. The Law & Order drama where a guy decides to take a 5yr plea for a crime he didn't commit to avoid a possible life sentence... just doesn't happen in real life.
Folks who want to argue that CGA68 shouldn't exist can knock themselves out, but it's a law that has not only been in existence for more than 40 years but it's something almost every person on this forum understands well enough to know about interstate transfers.
The idea that some kind of fantasy transaction took place that didn't actually violate CGA68 but he still plead guilty goes beyond sympathy into absurdity.
The idea that some kind of fantasy transaction took place that didn't actually violate CGA68 but he still plead guilty goes beyond sympathy into absurdity.
No question about it.
In my experience, innocent people do not plead guilty to felonies.
Your experience is limited then.
The Innocence Project has documented many people who plead guilty to felonies to get reduced sentences. DNA has proven without a shadow of a doubt they did not commit the crime.
I could easily plead guilty to a felony I did not commit. If going to trial would cost me my life savings, cost me to lose my home, retirement, prevent me from sending my kids to college, and the plea resulted in 99% of the other charges going away, and high probability of no jail or min time, it is a no brainer.
Martha Stewart is an example of someone who decided to take a plea, rather than fight for years, spending millions. Whether she committed the alleged crime or not, I have no idea. But it is behind her now and she has been able to get on with her life with min time served.
NCPatrolAR
02-23-10, 17:42
I'd like to see the ATF go after "criminals" that actually do have a negative impact on society. The gov can spend millions going after Cav Arms but cannot manage to do much about the millions of illegal aliens and drugs that come across the border. Gangs still run rampant in cities. Not as a "cop out" argument but Id genuinely like to see more enforcement in things that really do make a difference in society.
Most people fail to realize that ATF agents are already engaged in these types of investigations/operations
Your experience is limited then.
I'd be more than happy to compare who's spent more time working in a prosecutor's office. :cool:
The Innocence Project has documented many people who plead guilty to felonies to get reduced sentences. DNA has proven without a shadow of a doubt they did not commit the crime.
For the record, the Innocence Project doesn't focus on guilty plea cases specifically. How many of the "false plea" cases involved court-assigned legal representation vice paid legal professionals?
I'm sure there are innocent people who have plead guilty somewhere, sometime, for some reason. Just as I know that there have, in fact, been guns that "just went off." Nonetheless, wisdom and experience tell us that just as the vast, vast, vast majority of gun accidents are the result of someone pulling a trigger, the vast majority of guilty pleas are made by guilty people.
Martha Stewart is an example of someone who decided to take a plea, rather than fight for years, spending millions. Whether she committed the alleged crime or not, I have no idea. But it is behind her now and she has been able to get on with her life with min time served.
The part I highlighted is what makes the example non-responsive in this discussion. If you really believe that Martha Stewart, whose personal fortune is estimated to be nearly a billion dollars, plead guilty just to avoid a couple years of legal fees, you're crazy.
If you really believe that Martha Stewart, whose personal fortune is estimated to be nearly a billion dollars, plead guilty just to avoid a couple years of legal fees, you're crazy.
You just made point. Even a billionaire has found it is better to stop fighting, and just settle with min jail time to put it behind them; then the situation is worse for mere mortals who also have to consider financial impact too.
Now if CavArms guy was facing 40+ felony counts and possible life imprisonment, I could see not taking a plea. But to "one count of the felony offense of Illegal Sale by a Federally Licensed Dealer to an Out-of-State Resident.", a relatively minor, non-violent offense. No brainer all the way.
How many criminal trials have you seen from start to finish?
Enough to know it happens. More importantly I know more than a few people who got RAILROADED over something because the prosecutor pulled Jedi mind trick on 12 people who didn't have to work that day and weren't talented enough to get out of jury duty.
I know of a few dealers who got put out of business for very similar things. And yes, their lawyers were about as useful as blow up dolls. Several knowledgeable people explained to the defense lawyer why things were done a specific way and why they should be protected under the law and the lawyer then proceeded to accept the prosecutors "opinion" of how the law should apply and that is what got presented to the jury.
Add to that some 4473 clerical errors which are "proof of non compliance" and the jury see's nothing more than gun runner who broke the law before apparently has willfully violated it again. A few of the guys I know were smart enough to see that is how it would play in court and simply took the deal.
There are way more violations of the A and T parts of ATF but you don't see bartenders and cigar store owners up on these kinds of charges. They aren't getting their doors kicked or their dogs shot. And they sure as hell aren't being deliberately targeted and run out of business. When they have multiple bookkeeping errors or sell to unqualified buyers they get fined and go about their business.
Most people fail to realize that ATF agents are already engaged in these types of investigations/operations
Problem is our government also wastes time with sting operations involving manufacturers being asked to bribe fake African government officials. I suppose that makes the world safer and saner for those in the African government, just not sure why US tax dollars are being used.
There are way more violations of the A and T parts of ATF but you don't see bartenders and cigar store owners up on these kinds of charges.
That's a complete red herring. If you don't understand the difference in how the firearms industry is regulated by ATF (pursuant to laws passed by Congress) compared to the laws and regulations for tobacco products and alcohol, I can only assume it's purposeful ignorance.
Anyway, I'm done. You guys can stay up at night scared of the big bad ATF boogeyman all you want. I've been working with their people for years and have yet to meet one that's been anything but professional, honest, and patriotic.
That's a complete red herring. If you don't understand the difference in how the firearms industry is regulated by ATF (pursuant to laws passed by Congress) compared to the laws and regulations for tobacco products and alcohol, I can only assume it's purposeful ignorance.
Everyone says "red herring" when they can't address the issue. Of course the laws are different, but they shouldn't be. In the beginning it was all just tax recording. Now gun dealers are viewed as potential criminals who are treated like drug dealers. A gun is just a tool unless you sell them, because you are hardly treated like a hardware dealer.
Anyway, I'm done. You guys can stay up at night scared of the big bad ATF boogeyman all you want. I've been working with their people for years and have yet to meet one that's been anything but professional, honest, and patriotic.
Well like you I won't claim all of group A is completely good or completely bad. I've had good dealings on my compliance inspections and most of them were generally helpful. But I've also seen lots of abuses.
ATF agents who download entire 4473 databases during audits are hardly professional.
ATF agents who stomp cats are hardly patriotic.
ATF directors who make up allegations of drug dealing in order to have Delta assistance at Waco are hardly honest.
And the ATF at the height of their abuses under Carter were generally anything but patriotic.
Saying that they are always in the right, honest and professional is about as ridiculous as if I were to suggest they are always dishonest and unprofessional.
But the sad truth is sometimes they are, and they have the power to destroy lives.
Btw, I know Shawn Nealon and the Cav Arms guys and they are also professional, honest, and patriotic. The very name Cav Arms comes from their personal military service.
Belmont31R
02-24-10, 01:22
That's a complete red herring. If you don't understand the difference in how the firearms industry is regulated by ATF (pursuant to laws passed by Congress) compared to the laws and regulations for tobacco products and alcohol, I can only assume it's purposeful ignorance.
Anyway, I'm done. You guys can stay up at night scared of the big bad ATF boogeyman all you want. I've been working with their people for years and have yet to meet one that's been anything but professional, honest, and patriotic.
Main Entry: pa·tri·ot
Pronunciation: \ˈpā-trē-ət, -ˌät, chiefly British ˈpa-trē-ət\
: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests
I guess they are SUPER patriots.
Sorry but I couldn't do a job that entailed going around busting people's balls for paperwork errors and doing things as horrific as selling a gun to a person with a drivers license that says CALIFORNIA instead of ARIZONA.
Man fighting those interstate gun sellers one at a time, and putting a huge dent in [our made up] crimes [that have no victims nor impact on society].
But hey to each their own.
If we just had god given natural rights enumerated in some sort of national document so that a US citizen would never be prosecuted for exercising them, none of this would have happened.
John_Wayne777
02-24-10, 07:08
Man fighting those interstate gun sellers one at a time, and putting a huge dent in [our made up] crimes [that have no victims nor impact on society].
But hey to each their own.
A large chunk of ATF's ~ 1 billion budget is dedicated to anti-gang initiatives that actually do put real bad guys behind bars. I am far from ATF's biggest fan, but let's not get silly about what they do. It ain't all harassing FFLs and generating inconsistent technical rulings.
OK, this stupid shit is over.
If you want to continue on with the "Evil" ATF paranoid fantasies I highly suggest you find another forum to do so. God knows there are plenty that welcome and encourage these types of discussions. M4c on the other hand does not.
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