View Full Version : Shooter Confidence
I had an experience here in the last couple days that I think is very important for precision rifle aficionado's to read. From the very experienced, to the newbies among us... confidence in ourselves and our equipment is probably one of the most paramount skillsets to hone if you intend on becoming proficient at putting bullets where they belong at distance.
http://www.primalrights.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6546
The gist of it is that a guy gets a new rifle built, and goes out shooting with someone he perceives to be an authority. The guy he goes shooting with, sends this guy down the wrong path immediately... and required a solid demonstration in order to defuse the situation. Please read the story though... as it's a prime example of a situation that plays out all too frequently as a direct result of someone convincing someone else that they are an authority... and giving a gunsmith a rash of shit to deal with as a result.
confidence is a huge deal when shooting precision rifles.
AR15barrels
01-09-13, 00:38
Behind actually having a gun/ammo package that CAN actually shoot every shot where its supposed to, the confidence to TRUST that your gun actually WILL do what it is supposed to do is probably the most important thing a new shooter can gain and it's not something you can just BUY.
We run new precision rifle shooter clinics in Southern California.
We take the time to teach shooters how their rifles work, how to hit at distance, how to use the tools we should all know how to use, but the biggest thing we do with the newest shooters is get them to believe that their rifles are capable and then teach them to trust what the target shows them.
Sometimes, we get a shooter that thinks his rifle is the problem and just wants to argue with us that it's not him.
We put a good shooter behind that rifle and shoot a tiny group and that usually opens their mind to listen to us.
We see marked improvement in almost every new shooter every day.
The hardest part is to get them to practice the fundementals we teach between the 4 different clinic days that are spread out over 4-6 months.
Interesting read. I've never considered all of this. I just press and send it where I want it. I guess I've spent enough time behind my rifle that I already trust it and myself. I do need more practice at 600 and beyond...
Thanks for the insight.
Mo_Zam_Beek
01-09-13, 16:10
The author is dubious himself.
3) Timmy attached one of his suppressors to Steve's rifle. Anyone that knows thing one about suppressors knows that when you put on a can, your point of impact will change. Most suppressors will shift a minimum of 0.5 to 1 mil. At 100yds, 1 mil is 3.5" and at 200yds, that's 7".
A minimum shift of 1/2 - 1 MIL? Someone has little experience with proper threading and quality cans. My stainless SRT .30WinMag can is a consistent at 0.1 MIL straight down, my THOR TI will likely have a similar shift when it gets here. Most quality cans on properly threaded barrels see similar shift.
4) There were very few rounds fired out of this new rifle. It's not uncommon for rifles to take 50rnds or so to break in. They didn't get anywhere near that many shot, yet Timmy was certain there was something wrong with both rifles. Steve didn't know any better, because he viewed Timmy to be an authority on the subject. Pray tell - what is it mechanically that is altered in '50 rounds or so' to allow for such break in? Is the author suggesting the steel is soft and will morph to alter the lock up? The bedding will break down in some capacity and magically result in a more consistent rifle? Or is he to one that still believes in 'barrel break in' and the tooth fairy?
I stopped reading.
It was the blind leading the blind.
Wanna shoot long? Get out and shoot in the wind. Wind is as much art as it is science. Calling wind is skill that has to be earned. Able to call wind and want consistent first round hits? Understand density altitude and it's effect on the projo. From there it is largely about proper position and mechanics. There are (qualified) people that can train you and tools (ballistic calculators / weather meters / slide rules) available to flatten the learning curve, but at the end of the day - you personally have to sit out there and sling lead in all kinds of weather / lighting / and terrain conditions.
Good luck
3. yeah, my suppressors haven't been that far off, but i'm sure some are.
4. ime, some barrels do take a while to settle in and others do not. i have some theories but i can't say for certain why. what changes is wear in the throat and fouling to a consistent level. imho, it's actually a different discussion than break-in, but you can count me among those who have seen break-in make a difference in some barrels and not in others.
either way "not uncommon" is a reasonable description, meaning some settle in and groups tighten up after a few dozen rounds, and others shoot great from the start
http://www.gregd.net/pics/funny/NotThisShitAgain_trek.jpg
Mozambeek... christ sakes... you do take things very literally don't you?
I was simply saying suppressors WILL SHIFT... nearly ALWAYS. ... I don't give a shit what your thread job is like, it will shift more times than NOT.
I should have said 50rnds to "come in" instead of "break in." My mistake. Tell me... would YOU determine a barrels worth within the first 50rnds?
There's literally almost no point in sharing shit like this on the internet.
The author is dubious himself.
3) Timmy attached one of his suppressors to Steve's rifle. Anyone that knows thing one about suppressors knows that when you put on a can, your point of impact will change. Most suppressors will shift a minimum of 0.5 to 1 mil. At 100yds, 1 mil is 3.5" and at 200yds, that's 7".
A minimum shift of 1/2 - 1 MIL? Someone has little experience with proper threading and quality cans. My stainless SRT .30WinMag can is a consistent at 0.1 MIL straight down, my THOR TI will likely have a similar shift when it gets here. Most quality cans on properly threaded barrels see similar shift.
4) There were very few rounds fired out of this new rifle. It's not uncommon for rifles to take 50rnds or so to break in. They didn't get anywhere near that many shot, yet Timmy was certain there was something wrong with both rifles. Steve didn't know any better, because he viewed Timmy to be an authority on the subject. Pray tell - what is it mechanically that is altered in '50 rounds or so' to allow for such break in? Is the author suggesting the steel is soft and will morph to alter the lock up? The bedding will break down in some capacity and magically result in a more consistent rifle? Or is he to one that still believes in 'barrel break in' and the tooth fairy?
I stopped reading.
It was the blind leading the blind.
Wanna shoot long? Get out and shoot in the wind. Wind is as much art as it is science. Calling wind is skill that has to be earned. Able to call wind and want consistent first round hits? Understand density altitude and it's effect on the projo. From there it is largely about proper position and mechanics. There are (qualified) people that can train you and tools (ballistic calculators / weather meters / slide rules) available to flatten the learning curve, but at the end of the day - you personally have to sit out there and sling lead in all kinds of weather / lighting / and terrain conditions.
Good luck
Well, you stopped reading before you got to the freaking point of the story, so thanks for adding your valuable insight.
I'm hesitant to actually respond, but... You know about barrel harmonics, right? You've done a ladder test, and understand what it's for? If so, maybe you can explain how hanging a 20+ ounce weight on the end of my barrel is NOT going to affect the harmonics. The degree to which it causes POI shift is going to vary; some guns will see a dramatic shift, some will see none. That is a statistical certainty. There is no way to manufacture a suppressor that will be mountable on all guns without POI shift, and therefore we will see some distribution of shift across the population of rifles for each suppressor.
I'm going to put my scientist hat on and ask you to cite your source regarding negligent POI shift with "most cans". You mention one suppressor, and that you're getting another. So far I know of a single data point that you've cited. How familiar are you with statistics? I'm an ore geologist; using your methodology, I would pick up a rock that has 0.1 oz / ton gold in it, and conclude that all rocks have 0.1 oz / ton of gold in them (that's high grade ore, FYI). Obviously, I would be fired if I tried that at work.
Regarding the barrel taking some time to settle, well, have you ever heard of these things called "burrs"? Yes, the barrel definitely can mechanically alter somewhat in the first 50 rounds. Even barrels from the best manufacturers can have burrs, that's the real world. Nobody who is in the business to make money is going to replace tooling before it needs to be replaced, and the barrels made at the end of the life of the cutting tool are going to be rougher than those made at the beginning. That's just one possible reason for a barrel needing to "settle".
Maybe you should set aside your omniscience and read the article again, because orkan makes some good points.
-----
Anyway thanks for sharing, it was an interesting read. I don't teach often, and when I do it's almost always teaching a woman to shoot pistol or maybe a carbine, but I cringe at the stories they tell me of their previous shooting experiences with self-imagined expert boyfriends and the like. I usually end up wanting to deck the boyfriend for setting the girl up to fail, undermining her confidence, etc.
steyrman13
01-09-13, 18:59
[IMG]
There's literally almost no point in sharing shit like this on the internet.
But there is for other people who value good information and people that are just learning to shoot who do not think they are experts or who may think they are, but need to be brought to reality that they are still a novice themselves possibly like one poster here.
While orkan probably shouldn't have spoken in absolutes regarding POI shift when attaching a silencer, it doesn't detract from the validity of the article.
Most suppressors will shift a minimum of 0.5 to 1 mil. At 100yds Were I talking in absolutes, "most" would read "all."
That being said, I challenge anyone who owns a suppressor to come for a visit and show me less than .5 mil shift. I bet there won't be one out of TEN that could do it.
Regarding barrels "settling in", my 260 and my 308 (Both Rock Barrels) both had the barrels speed up a bit once I was over 200 or so rounds. I had to back the load off on my 260 by a full half of a grain to maintain normal pressure...especially suppressed (where I do experience a .5 shift straight down with a SWR Omega 300). A lot of shooters that I compete with share similar experiences. Oddly enough, it's not a been a problem with my Brux 223 barrel from day one to 2k on the barrel...still sending pointed 82 bergers at 2900.
Don't ask me why, I have no idea. But it's the reason why I won't show up to a match with a barrel that has less than 300 through it.
Regarding zero shift, I suspect that when my TBAC is approved, that zero shift will be minimal to non existant. Good threads, a Ti can, and a heavy barrel play into this I suspect. Every TBAC can I have been around shares similar attributes.
I think that goes without saying. Truck axle barrels with 16oz. suppressors won't show much shift. 0.1 to 0.2 probably. Lighter contours as is most often seen, will run that .5 mil shift pretty regularly.
jpipes, did you do barrel breakin procedure on those two rock creeks?
jpipes, did you do barrel breakin procedure on those two rock creeks?
No, I didn't. I've never been a big believer in them from a accuracy stand point...might could change my mind if it prevents "settling" speed adjustments. I am also not patient enough to follow a ritual of cleaning. I just shoot until accuracy drops, run some wipe-out foaming bore cleaner through it, and patch it out...followed by a bore snake.
might could change my mind if it prevents "settling" speed adjustments. It doesn't. ... or at least can never be proven to be linked to it.
So the only reason I do a brief break in procedure is that when I don't I typically see that pressure increase which I believe is a result of copper fouling. And clean one shoot one until a bbl stops copper fouling (usually five or less rounds with a good bbl) consistently prevents that copper build up.
Next time you have a barrel try one of two things: a very quick break in in the beginning... Or after you see that velocity increase, scrub it with a copper solvent and see if the pressure goes back to normal. (prob easier than working up a new load. ). I've never seen any accuracy difference
AR15barrels
01-10-13, 20:40
With good quality cut rifled barrels, I have not seen a need for any sort of break in.
For fun, I started asking my customers to shoot their first 10 rounds in two 5 round groups for me.
I'm talking about the first 10 rounds through the barrel after I fitted it to the receiver, no breakin whatsoever, just wipe the bore clean of any oil that might have been left from chambering.
I also asked that the groups have rounds 1-5 labeled in the order that they are fired.
I don't have those targets handy to post, but here are results from my 260 when I started this experiment:
First 5 rounds, marked in sequence they were fired
http://700barrels.com/gfx/260group1.jpg
Then I adjusted the zero and shot another five rounds.
Rounds 6-10
http://700barrels.com/gfx/260group2.jpg
Happy with the results, I ran a fast dot drill.
5 rounds, reload, then 5 more on half inch dots.
Rounds 11-20
http://700barrels.com/gfx/260group3.jpg
What I have learned so far is that ALL unfired barrels will throw the first round fired high out of the group.
Some barrels tighten up slightly within 30 rounds, but some shoot great right away.
Regarding zero shift, I suspect that when my TBAC is approved, that zero shift will be minimal to non existant. Good threads, a Ti can, and a heavy barrel play into this I suspect. Every TBAC can I have been around shares similar attributes.
I got word today my TBAC is being transferred in to my Class III dealer. Heard a lot of good things, I hope they pan out. I expect I will have shot out the barrel I bought for it by the time I get a stamp, but better later than never.
Doc. Holiday
01-11-13, 10:33
Tagged for future info. Thanks for the info!
Thanks for the info.
A question about a comment made in the post, what kind of POI changes occur with a Harris bipod versus a sandbag?
Do these changes happen in a semi-auto as well?
i would hope none
however, if you're on a hard surface, sometimes the harris will give you a little 'bounce' which is the subject of some debate.
There's no debate about it. With a harris, on a hard surface, it will hop up UNLESS THE SHOOTER IS DOING THEIR JOB PERFECTLY. It is a very rigid bipod, and thus very unforgiving when on concrete/wood. Put it in grass or soft dirt and it goes away.
An atlas on the other hand, has squishy feet, and is not very rigid. As a result, it will allow you to screw up a bit with your body position and still keep the shot on track. Way easier to get an atlas loaded for this reason.
I have proven this with students over and over again. It's built into my curriculum. I can repeat the scenario with every shooter to some degree. Those that have good form exhibit less "hop" while others with bad form can toss a 1" group about 6" high at 100yds!
There's no debate about it. With a harris, on a hard surface, it will hop up UNLESS THE SHOOTER IS DOING THEIR JOB PERFECTLY. It is a very rigid bipod, and thus very unforgiving when on concrete/wood. Put it in grass or soft dirt and it goes away.
An atlas on the other hand, has squishy feet, and is not very rigid. As a result, it will allow you to screw up a bit with your body position and still keep the shot on track. Way easier to get an atlas loaded for this reason.
I have proven this with students over and over again. It's built into my curriculum. I can repeat the scenario with every shooter to some degree. Those that have good form exhibit less "hop" while others with bad form can toss a 1" group about 6" high at 100yds!
Greg, so the "hop up" will happen even before the bullet has left the bore? Is this phenomena barrel length dependent?
Will this matter in a 16" AR midlength set up?
By the way, thanks for all the info regarding the scopes.
Greg, so the "hop up" will happen even before the bullet has left the bore? Yes.
Is this phenomena barrel length dependent? Tough to make any correlation outside of the actual physical factors. Shorter barrels put less weight out front, and as a result generally have less weight on the bipod, making it hop more. Yet longer barrels put more weight out front, reducing the weight on the rear bag, allowing the recoil to "punch" the rear bag downward which will screw things up as well. It's important to remember however, that this phenomena is dependent on the shooter not being in the right position to receive recoil straight to the rear, directly in line with the bore. If your shoulder is beneath the center-line of the bore, you WILL have an off axis recoil. Period. Why do you think I like DTA rifles so much? Look at the rear of this rifle in relation to the bore. What do you see? What does it tell you about traditional rifles as it relates to how easily you can get your body behind the center-line of the bore?
http://primalrights.com/images/reviews/dtasrs/leadoff_dtasrs.jpg
Will this matter in a 16" AR midlength set up? Body position "matters" with all rifles.
By the way, thanks for all the info regarding the scopes. You're welcome. :)
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