View Full Version : Competition handgun
exitinyourhead
02-29-08, 21:33
This is my first post... please bare with me.
I would really like to get into some competitive shooting with my wife. I would classify myself as a novice and my wife as a begginer (with reguards to shooting!) I have never shot competition or even watched. We live on a small farm and I shoot about once a month serirously (300 to 400 rounds mixed calib. and mixed firearms at mixed targets) and probably 3 to 4 times a month for fun. I would also like this to be pistol oriented and more or less stock guns. I'm not exactly sure what classes for competition are offered but we live very close to a decent sized gun club that runs comps and classes regularly.
Basically I don't know exactly what classes there are to compete in (this is all "NRA APPROVED CONVENTIONAL OUTDOOR PISTOL TOURNAMENTS" and what guns would be good to bring. I'm thinking of something in the 9mm or .40cal range for the wife, and something similar for me as well. I don't mind doing some work to the guns (or more appropriatly having some work done.) but I don't want to mortgage the kids future doing so (ok i do want to but probably know better.)
I don't want to look like an idiot going into the gun club and saying... duh i wanta shoot competitively and i just bought these two shiny new Desert Eagles with competition triggers and scopes to do it with! Where do I sign up!!?!?!?! I would really like to pick your brains first and have ya'll tell me a couple of things if you have the time to do so...
where do you compete?
what classes?
what firearms?
what modifications?
I've seen a bunch of pictures with guys shooting different types of guns in what looks like competitive situations. I have a feeling ya'll know a pretty good bit. I also used the search feature and didn't see anything withint the first 5 or 6 pages but may not have searched properly. If not, I do apologize and if you could shoot me a link I would be grateful.
My wife and I are both 38 with some firearm experience.
I currently own
Colt Gold Cup Tropy .45
Benelli SBE (old style)
Rock River Arms Entry Tactical AR15 (I have a noveske N4 upper non-vis on order but they still haven't shipped it yet and i've bugged em too much already to call them about it again :eek: )
Henry Rifle Lever Action 22
I guess anything else will have to be asked and anwered, thanks in advance for your ideas.
exitinyourhead
02-29-08, 21:35
Oh and I'm planning on trying to attend classes together with my wife on whatever classes we intend to compete in first.
Gutshot John
02-29-08, 22:05
The way you described you and your wife perfectly reminded me of me and so I thought I'd respond.
In terms of pistol training, especially relevant to competition, I'd check out TSA run by DR Middlebrooks at www.tacticalshooting.com. It's the new kid on the block and as such is a bit more open to beginners than you might find in other associations. For me this meant I had a chance to shoot against Dave Sevigny and Scott Warren. Of course they spanked me...but it was an honor to be on that line.
I had been a longtime shooting enthusiast, but my wife was decidedly uncomfortable around guns until I took her to Barb and DR Middlebrooks. They were simply wonderful. Within two days, my wife was shooting mozambiques with a Glock 19 comfortably. Moreover they treated us like family, and their rates were among the most reasonable out there for firearms training. The Fist-Fire point-shooting system is quite remarkable, but you have to try it to believe it.
Just out of curiosity, where are you from, that might be narrow down the issues of where to compete a bit. I'd start with whatever is most available to you and your local club. USPSA or IDPA are probably the most common. I'd avoid IPSC but that's just my own prejudice. NRA is nice, but won't really challenge you.
As for type of gun...that depends more on you. A good place to start is a Glock 9mm. After that you'll have a baseline from which to make more informed choices.
ChandlerSniper158
02-29-08, 22:31
You can try the IDPA and USPSA website.. they both have alot of info for beginners on them. You can do a search on this site in the competition forum. The best site for you to go to and learn from will probably be www.brianenos.com The forums on his site have a dedicated beginner section with answers to any and all questions your asking or could think of asking.
As far as what pistol to pick.. thats going to depend on what your comfortable shooting and what your budget will allow. If it was me starting over again..I would go with something along the lines of an Glock 17 or a Smith M&P in 9mm ( I currently have and compete with both ). Those will get you going in pretty much any class you want to try, they wont break the bank getting them, and mods are relatively inexpensive. Also 9mm ammo is still reasonably priced so you can practice more with them.
Good luck,
CS
exitinyourhead
02-29-08, 23:22
Excellent information! I've bookmarked both and sent them to my laptop as well. We live in Covington GA, very close to the South River Gun Club.
From their website they are offering these types competition
IPSC Action Shooting
IDPA Action Shooting
Bullseye Pistol
It also looks like they offer tons and tons of classes and clinics on both competitive and tactical shooting.
I think this is something my wife and I can really enjoy together. We enjoy shooting at home and have been competitive in the past with other sports and we still coach, but I think that it's something that has been missing in our lives in recent years.
It's good to also hear Glock and M&P mentioned as these where two of the firearms I had been looking at and seen pictures of people on these boards using. Well within price range with some money left over for a little bit of smithing after purchase!
ChandlerSniper158
03-01-08, 00:31
There ya go.. your pointed in the right direction. Enjoy!
CS
www.uspsa.org
www.idpa.com
Alpha Sierra
03-01-08, 20:35
I don't want to look like an idiot going into the gun club and saying... duh i wanta shoot competitively and i just bought these two shiny new Desert Eagles with competition triggers and scopes to do it with! Where do I sign up!!?!?!?!
Good on ya. I am an active NRA long range rifle competitor and way too many times I've seen what you just described. People showing up with completely unsuitable or non-compliant (to the rules of what I shoot) rifles and then are pissed off or disappointed.
I think IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Association) pistol competition is what will be the most enjoyable, most relevant (to an armed civilian), and most affordable form of handgun sport.
Alpha Sierra
03-01-08, 20:36
It's good to also hear Glock and M&P mentioned as these where two of the firearms I had been looking at and seen pictures of people on these boards using. Well within price range with some money left over for a little bit of smithing after purchase!
You'll need holsters too. ;)
An M&P, or Glock in 9mm. Those are the two best choices available in polymer 9mm's right now. The rest are second tier.
And for the record, IDPA isn't more "tactical" or better for "self defense", then USPSA....
exitinyourhead
03-01-08, 22:55
Definetly bookmarking and reading these links.. much appreciated!
I certainly want to do more "watching and listening" at first and until I get a better understanding of what is going on. Of course, there will be all sorts of safety guidelines and range protocols I'm not familiar with from shooting at home. I try to be as safe as possible, but being safe when it's just two of you is different than with a crowd. We are hoping to attend a couple of matches as spectators before choosing clinics and selecting classes for competition.
I would like to try and compete in as many different classes and take as many different clinics as our schedules allow and than narrow it down to what we like best. I went to the gun store that I have liked in the past and they had exactly zero M&P's new or even used. Lots of Glocks avail but I really wanted to look at both before making any decision. I thought with both of us shooting it could be cool to buy one of each but ended up just buying nothing and will look for a dealer with better stock.
And oh yes holsters! I love buying gun stuff.. what an addiction! I constantly shop and put stuff in carts for the AR, I can't imagine what this new hobby is going to set me back.
Once again, I appreciate all the input. This is the kind of thing that really helps. It's better to have some sort of idea, even if you don't exactly "know" what is going on. You hear certain words and phraseology and put it together with things you've read on the forums and it makes more sense and it seems like you brain is conditioned to it better.
Speaking of safe, went to a cook out this afternoon. My wife said to bring my guns because there are some other dads bringing their guns. I raised my eyebrows because this also involves bringin my kids too but I'm sure this is safer than I see it in my mind right? Well long story short... it's a campfire on the river bank with one super drunk guy with an ak47, ar15, M1 garand and a 454 cannon revolver throwing cans into a river at dusk and shooting them as they float by, three dads with beers saying wow and gee, meanwhile, kids are running around with hot marshmallows on glowing red sticks and screaming at the top of their lungs. Needless to say my guns didn't leave their bags, let alone the trunk. I usually don't say "Honey get the kids and get in the damn truck," but in this case I thought it was appropriate.
Gutshot John
03-02-08, 11:35
If you and your wife are both going to carry. You might consider getting the same model. It's always nice being able to swap mags.
In terms of holsters, among the most reasonable and concealable are the Blackhawk Askins CQC. With a full-size glock 34, it barely prints on your cover garment.
Oh if you decide to take a class at TSA, take the Fist-Fire curriculum as opposed to the generic CCW. I think he will be in Key Largo (if thats relatively convenient to where you are) in April.
Failure2Stop
03-02-08, 12:00
The biggest hurdle is to just grab your gear, some ammo, and go shoot the competition. If you wait until you feel you are ready, you will never do it.
I wanted to shoot USPSA/IDPA for years. Then I met a couple of GMs who told me exactly what I said above. I grabbed my G35, belt, mags, pouches, holster, 200 rounds of .40 and shot. I didn't set any records, but I was right with the pack, and started learning the game. Changes occurred in gear and technique, so I was glad I didn't spend a bunch of money first.
Just shoot it. ;)
The biggest hurdle is to just grab your gear, some ammo, and go shoot the competition. If you wait until you feel you are ready, you will never do it.
I wanted to shoot USPSA/IDPA for years. Then I met a couple of GMs who told me exactly what I said above. I grabbed my G35, belt, mags, pouches, holster, 200 rounds of .40 and shot. I didn't set any records, but I was right with the pack, and started learning the game. Changes occurred in gear and technique, so I was glad I didn't spend a bunch of money first.
Just shoot it. ;)
That is no bulls@*#
Alpha Sierra
03-02-08, 12:47
An M&P, or Glock in 9mm. Those are the two best choices available in polymer 9mm's right now. The rest are second tier.
Highly debatable.
[QUOTE=Charles;133658]And for the record, IDPA isn't more "tactical" or better for "self defense", then USPSA....
Again, debatable.
Highly debateable
Not hardly....
Again, debatable.
Again, hardly....
And for the record, IDPA isn't more "tactical" or better for "self defense", then USPSA....
I'm going to have to disagree with that.
Let me begin by saying that neither game is training and certainly neither is training you to fight. They're both exactly what I called them: games. Competition has its place and can be a benefit to your fighting ability, but it doesn't take the place of dedicated training, mindset, or common sense.
(also, a great deal of what follows is very dependent on your local club ... I've shot both USPSA and IDPA around the country. There are very "tactical" USPSA clubs and very "gamey" IDPA clubs. But as a rule, it tends to be the other way around)
So while neither of them is ideal, why would I say that IDPA is "better for self defense than USPSA?"
Courses of fire
A typical stage at IDPA is much closer and more relevant to practical self-defense than a typical USPSA stage. IDPA stages are specifically limited to reasonable distances and reasonable round counts. They often require the use of cover, and while the IDPA cover rules are permissive they're certainly a lot better than no rules at all.
Also, because there is a built-in allowance to walk through and "air gun" stages in USPSA, you often have what are called memory game stages. A lot of people enjoy them, but again it's placing a premium on something with little applicability to practical self-defense.
Scoring system
The IDPA scoring system places a substantially greater emphasis on accuracy than USPSA. While it's true you need to be extremely accurate in both sports to win a National Championship, at lower levels you can literally miss (the A-zone) fast enough to win in USPSA.
Equipment
Because the courses of fire tend to be limited in distance and round count, and because accuracy is at such a premium compared to speed, the equipment is much more practical. By definition, the gun and holster you use at an IDPA match are required to be suitable for CCW.
People/Mindset
Because of the shorter stages and minimally tricked-out guns, IDPA tends to attract a different type of shooter than USPSA. There is certainly a lot of overlap (and many people, myself included, shoot both) but the tenor of the two games is fairly noticeable. USPSA is first and foremost a game. IDPA, for many competitors at all skill levels, is about testing practical skills for a "higher purpose." If anything, one of the biggest negatives about IDPA is that too often a stage designer, Match Director, or Range (Safety) Officer will apply what he thinks is an important tactical principle to something ... in a completely backwards, inappropriate, or otherwise harmful way.1
If you go to an IDPA match and shoot a stage in a way that isn't ideal (from a score standpoint) but you do things that are practical/tactical (moving more slowly around cover, topping off your gun before leaving cover, creating distance rather than closing for the nearest/fastest shot, etc.) no one is going to make fun of you. In fact, odds are you'll get a pat on the back from many competitors. Do those things at most USPSA clubs and folks will be downright stupefied. BTDT.
I've never had anyone make fun of me for being too gamey at an IDPA match, but I've been teased and in some cases outright harassed at some USPSA matches for being too "tactical" or simply for being "one of those IDPA types."
There are some very important things that USPSA does better, and if you can shoot both I highly encourage it. But if you only have the time, money, energy, or interest to shoot one, and if your local club is decent, odds are IDPA will be more in line with your goals if you're looking to get into competition as part of your overall training regimen.
Again, they are both games and neither one of them is perfect. Especially at the upper levels, things with almost no practical value (specific pre-planned footwork, set-ups, etc.) play a much bigger role in who wins than shooting skill.
1It is for this reason that you see many experienced people gravitate toward USPSA over IDPA. Not only are the shooting problems more challenging, but the game is much more free form ... you don't have to worry about getting into a pissing contest with someone who knows he's more tacticool than you because he went to Gunsite 250 twelve years ago or has a Paladin Press library at home.
Gutshot John
03-02-08, 16:15
Shoot whatever you can...whenever you can.
Any difference between USPSA and IDPA in terms of being more "practical" or "tactical" is a question of degree. Shooting either beats nothing. As for the complaint that you develop "bad habits" in competition, the primary habit it instills is putting rounds on target as quickly as possible. Any way you look at it it's good training. Competition will only make you a better shooter.
If being "tactical" is your emphasis, try a TSA match. You can pretty much shoot anything you want to bring, so long as you cover conceals it, and it fits inside the dimensions of a box.
The idea is to compete with your carry gun, no matter what you choose. In fact it actually rewards you for shooting a heavier caliber... Major/Minor scoring means that guys who carry .45 can readily compete with guys who shoot 9mm.
ChandlerSniper158
03-02-08, 16:42
You have to take what you can use for both disciplines and add them to your toolbox. Competing with a weapon is a game.. fighting is what it is going to be..but you can apply what you get from competing to fighting.. ask LAV or Kyle Lamb.. both are certified BTDT dudes and both are very good competitive shooters. Where is it a bad thing to learn to handle and move with your guns under stress? Competing is high speed weapons handling plain and simple. Your trying to engage multiple targets as quickly and efficiently as possible. It will make you a better shooter in the end, and thats what it`s all about. It isn`t going to make you a Tactical Ninja.. its going to make you focus on your front sight / optic and get quick accurate hits, when you add that to your training and tactics.. your better all the way around. Its about your mindset and what you choose to do with it.
I have seen so many guys both at work or at a match who talk a good game till that timer goes off.. then they look like a fool. It`s the best way you can induce stress without someone actually shooting something back at you. Theres tons of verifiable info available where someone who competes with his weapons was able to prevail in a conflict because of the skill sets he used when he competed. I think its funny when people call someone a "gamer" because they look at a stage and try to figure out a way to do it as efficiently as possible. I had a guy call me that at a match once because I was looking at angles and such to shoot at as many targets as I could from behind cover without exposing myself. Is it wrong to look for something that will give me an advantage in a real gunfight over my adversary?? You can bet your ass I`m going to do it in a real fight if it`s there. If thats being called a gamer then I guess I am.. but I shot that stage substantially faster ( 26 seconds faster, dropping 1 point total ) then my name calling friend and only exposed myself to targets that were already engaged. He moved from barricade to barricade without moving and shooting.. just running exposing himself to possible incoming rounds.. which way is more "tactical"???
The majority of people who talk shit about competing are too proud to get out and shoot against someone else because they don`t want to look bad. Its easy to go out on a square range and hit targets that you set up and run it over and over again. If they do come to a match and get their ass handed to em.. it`s because "those guys are all gamers" they aren`t tactical shooters.. yada yada yada.
CS
I swear too God I'm going to puke if I hear one more person say -"do it tactically", "don't worry about winning". Bullshit! The will to win, is the will to win. It doesn't matter if its a gunfight, IDPA, USPSA, UFC, or ****ing checkers.
"Ghosting a stage"- Thats funny. I have "ghosted" every single level, room, and door of every building I've done a hit on. Even if it's just tape on the floor, I've "walked through it".
"Gaming"- I have to laugh at all the tools that talk about "gamers" and how thats why they shoot IDPA as they are shooting there G34, yet carry a Smith Airweight. IF, they even carry at all. It's all BS, ego padding! I always shoot my carry gun. 90% of the time I shoot the exact setup that I carry- shorts, flip-flops, Oakley's, IWB, and mag in the pocket. I still win. Maybe thats because I don't give myself an excuse?
"Learning bad habits"- if anyone has figured out a way to teach someone how to do something in a 20 second stage, please tell me. I can't hardly seem to get them to do it after two full days of non-stop "learning". You are not going to undue hundreds of hours of "training" at a 1 minute match. But hey, that sounds good when you explain why your at the bottem of the list, doesn't it?. :rolleyes:
If you think your "sharpshooter" ass, that does it "right" is going to beat a "master" that games, in a gunfight, your smoking crack.
The only things you get out of "action" competitions, is shooting, manipulating, running, and thinking under the stress of the timer. Thats it! You do not get tactics or even practice tactics at any of them.
I swear too God I'm going to puke if I hear one more person say -"do it tactically", "don't worry about winning". Bullshit! The will to win, is the will to win. It doesn't matter if its a gunfight, IDPA, USPSA, UFC, or ****ing checkers.
Do you play by the rules? I see a pretty distinct difference between the will to prevail in combat and the motivation to win a game of checkers.
"Ghosting a stage"- Thats funny. I have "ghosted" every single level, room, and door of every building I've done a hit on. Even if it's just tape on the floor, I've "walked through it".
How does this pertain to the vast majority of scenarios in either game? You can't say there's nothing tactical about the game and then draw a connection to something you do when you have the time, intel, and teammates to make such planning and practice worthwhile.
"Gaming"- I have to laugh at all the tools that talk about "gamers" and how thats why they shoot IDPA as they are shooting there G34, yet carry a Smith Airweight. IF, they even carry at all. It's all BS, ego padding! I always shoot my carry gun. 90% of the time I shoot the exact setup that I carry- shorts, flip-flops, Oakley's, IWB, and mag in the pocket. I still win. Maybe thats because I don't give myself an excuse?
No argument, people who play with one and carry the other are fooling themselves regardless of which game they're playing.
Do you wear concealment when you shoot USPSA?
"Learning bad habits"- if anyone has figured out a way to teach someone how to do something in a 20 second stage, please tell me. I can't hardly seem to get them to do it after two full days of non-stop "learning". You are not going to undue hundreds of hours of "training" at a 1 minute match. But hey, that sounds good when you explain why your at the bottem of the list, doesn't it?. :rolleyes:
I agree with that in principle. The silly urban legends like "he waited for the beep and was gunned down" are eye-rollingly stupid.
However, I just recently finished Blink, which is a very interesting study of how people apply their knowledge and experience on a subconscious level. A number of the examples in the book related directly to how we learn things, even things we're not really aware of, and then apply those lessons under stress.
I'm not saying that counters the silly "learning bad habits" crap, but it does give me reason to pause and consider if some of the things we do and see (and get rewarded for) really do have some effect.
If you think your "sharpshooter" ass, that does it "right" is going to beat a "master" that games, in a gunfight, your smoking crack.
Not sure what you meant by putting those terms in quotes. But I know for a fact that there are plenty of Sharpshooter-level shooters with the mindset, tactical experience, and skill to beat the living hell out of many of the Master-class shooters out there. (and I say that as a Master-class IDPA shooter)
Gun handling skill is certainly a worthwhile thing to work on, and competition is a great motivation for many people to improve those skills. But it's just one part of the equation.
One of our local GMs told me a few years ago that he doesn't "worry about tactics because I'll just have to decide which eye to shoot out." He turned down every opportunity we gave him to do a little force on force training.
The only things you get out of "action" competitions, is shooting, manipulating, running, and thinking under the stress of the timer. Thats it! You do not get tactics or even practice tactics at any of them.
Agree with that, as well.
Gutshot John
03-02-08, 21:25
I think one of the better things about competition is that you get to see some excellent shooting. You realize how much you really don't know and how far you really have to go.
It sets the bar much higher.
I swear too God I'm going to puke if I hear one more person say -"do it tactically", "don't worry about winning". Bullshit! The will to win, is the will to win. It doesn't matter if its a gunfight, IDPA, USPSA, UFC, or ****ing checkers.
"Ghosting a stage"- Thats funny. I have "ghosted" every single level, room, and door of every building I've done a hit on. Even if it's just tape on the floor, I've "walked through it".
"Gaming"- I have to laugh at all the tools that talk about "gamers" and how thats why they shoot IDPA as they are shooting there G34, yet carry a Smith Airweight. IF, they even carry at all. It's all BS, ego padding! I always shoot my carry gun. 90% of the time I shoot the exact setup that I carry- shorts, flip-flops, Oakley's, IWB, and mag in the pocket. I still win. Maybe thats because I don't give myself an excuse?
"Learning bad habits"- if anyone has figured out a way to teach someone how to do something in a 20 second stage, please tell me. I can't hardly seem to get them to do it after two full days of non-stop "learning". You are not going to undue hundreds of hours of "training" at a 1 minute match. But hey, that sounds good when you explain why your at the bottem of the list, doesn't it?. :rolleyes:
If you think your "sharpshooter" ass, that does it "right" is going to beat a "master" that games, in a gunfight, your smoking crack.
The only things you get out of "action" competitions, is shooting, manipulating, running, and thinking under the stress of the timer. Thats it! You do not get tactics or even practice tactics at any of them.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
couldn't agree with you more, They are both games that have a winner.
If IDPA is so tactical and oriented towards self defense(that is why you shoot from the concealed) than why is it that you have a classification that is shot while not being concealed.
I am tired of the Pissing contest about IDPA, IPSC or three gun. you use this sports to refine and test your fundamentals under self induced stress.
You should practice all disciplines and become familiar with as many techniques as you can, that will make you a better shooter.
just like in martial arts, you need to be a well rounded fighter. you must be good standing up, but be ready to take a fight to the ground if you need too.
win by all means.
if you want to pick up a good sport try them all, i would suggest start with an M&P since you have experience with 1911's. I shoot a glock, but it presents different than a 1911 so you would have to learn a different presentation.
no matter what you choose to shoot go for accuracy not speed.
A lot of good has already been said here regarding the different venues, types of gear, etc., so I won't waste space regurgitating.
I will add to the earlier comment though -- that after several years of IPSC/USPSA followed by a roughy equal number in IDPA -- I see there being a substantial "cultural" difference between them.
IPSC/USPSA is generally more hi-powered competition-wise. A good venue will be welcoming and supportive of beginners starting out, but to spend any time there you will likely experience the general expectation to step up to the plate, get in the game, and kick some butt. In addition to the skill-development aspects, equipment advancement is also considered part of the program. Your new buddies will be encouraging you to get a fairly highly tuned 1911 of some kind, the latest race-oriented holster rig. etc. The stage designs are also more intellectual, requiring a sort of chess-game approach to strategize your peformance.
IDPA may -- and I stress MAY -- be somewhat easier for people starting out. Maybe not so much difference on your very first match, but rather in being more able to go at your own pace during the course of several months. Nobody is likely to say anything about you showing up each month with the same factory-stock Glock in an Uncle Mike's holster. Stages also are more straightforward, emphasizing basic skills over larger-scale strategies.
Both are good, but both are different. Think about what you are interested in, and what kind of person you are. Maybe try one or two matches of each, then decide which to stick with.
Any shooting is good shooting, and matches in general are among the best. Good luck with your pursuits! :D
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/rivanna07/35f2.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/rivanna07/b834.jpg
Not sure what you meant by putting those terms in quotes. But I know for a fact that there are plenty of Sharpshooter-level shooters with the mindset, tactical experience, and skill to beat the living hell out of many of the Master-class shooters out there. (and I say that as a Master-class IDPA shooter)
As do I. However all else being equel, the better shooter will win everytime, and thats my point. You can hope for the best, and you may get "lucky", but what happens when your luck fails? What happens when you come against someone who posseses mindset and tactics also? Surely one doesn't believe that all criminals are idiots that are scared of there own shadows?
I guess I just look at this from a different perspective.
Gutshot John
03-03-08, 14:43
As do I. However all else being equel, the better shooter will win everytime, and thats my point. You can hope for the best, and you may get "lucky", but what happens when your luck fails? What happens when you come against someone who posseses mindset and tactics also? Surely one doesn't believe that all criminals are idiots that are scared of there own shadows?
I guess I just look at this from a different perspective.
I'm not sure this is directly relevant, but I seem to recall that when someone told Lee Trevino that he got "lucky" on a drive. His response was something akin to "It's funny, but I find the more I practice the luckier I get."
As do I. However all else being equel, the better shooter will win everytime, and thats my point. You can hope for the best, and you may get "lucky", but what happens when your luck fails? What happens when you come against someone who posseses mindset and tactics also? Surely one doesn't believe that all criminals are idiots that are scared of there own shadows?
Charles -- absolute agreement from me on these points. I wouldn't spend so much time and money practicing if I didn't think it was giving me an edge. If you've ever seen my website, you'll realize I'm the last person to dissuade or discourage people from practice, training, or competition.
To paraphrase a famous line, all training is equal, but some is more equal than others.
I don't understand why these threads always have to degenerate into IPSC shooters proclaiming their game is better, and IDPA shooters doing the same. I used to fall into this, but as I sat back and looked at it I really don't get it. Typically what happens is the same thing that happened here; someone of one discipline makes an offhand comment, and someone from the other takes offense and launches into a tirade. Odd.
Anyway...
When I was looking to get into game shooting 5 years ago +/- I chose IDPA because it seemed the most accessible. I had a gun, a couple of mags and a holster and I trotted out there and gave it a try. Our club has between 4 and 6 matches a month between IDPA, carbine, drills, 3-gun, etc. I keep wanting to try IPSC more but I frankly just don't have the time or the ammo with all that goes on with my "home" club.
With that said, I have shot IPSC, and I do see guys from the IPSC club come over and shoot IDPA from time to time. We also have a few guys that do both on a regular basis. Generally speaking, I don't see the IPSC shooters do very well at IDPA their first couple of times out, and the reverse appears to be true as well. It's not that one is better or worse than the other, it's just that they are different. They have different goals, rules, and mindsets.
At least around here, the IDPA club does tend to be younger and have less experienced shooters. This isn't to say that we don't have guys that are exceptional shooters, but that most find it to be more accessible due to the (whether perceived or real) equipment issues, and that brings out some guys that just bought their pistol at the gunshow last weekend. The IDPA club also appears to "advertise" more so that when these guys go to the range for the first time with their new toy it's an IDPA flier they see. I also think that the IPSC club sends all their potential newbies to us as well. :D
I agree completely with failure2stop, just get out there and do it. I see people come out to "watch" our matches all the time, and for the life of me I'm not sure why they don't just jump in.
Get yourself a Glock 19, have the shop throw in an extra magazine, buy a Fobus holster and mag pouch if you have to (just be prepared to ditch that junk first chance you get), and for $600-$650 you can be in the game immediately.
rob_s: Just to clarify my position, I don't think one game is better than the other. Both have their pros and cons. I think your experience demonstrates the point I was trying to make, which is that for less experienced people whose focus is self-defense, IDPA tends to be the better starting place ... primarily because of the COFs, equipment, and "tone" of the average IDPA match.
On the other hand, IPSC tends to be more challenging from a shooting standpoint which is why I think you see so many really good IDPA shooters begin to gravitate toward IPSC also or even instead of. And if you enjoy it for the sake of competition, or you enjoy the mental game of planning your movements and figuring out the best stage strategy, IPSC certainly gives you more of that.
Neither game comes close to being "perfect."
kihnspiracy
03-04-08, 11:29
The bottom line is, it's about getting out there and doing some shooting! I personally don't care if you like IDPA, IPSC etc. As long as you are shooting and practicing, then that is what counts. And having fun at the same time. I think far too many people spend their time looking down at other shooters, because they aen't into their personal type of shooting.
exitinyourhead
03-04-08, 14:48
Wow, I didn't realize that feelings ran this deep on these different styles of competition!
If it makes any difference it's actually sort of nice not having a pony in the race and listening to both sides of the spectrum. There have been so many links and so much to read about each type of shooting on there respective web pages but hearing ya'll argue the merits of each back and forth sort of cuts through the bull and actually describes each type pretty clearly.
I've just gotten back from the local firearms dealer with a pair of M&P 9s. I could hardly find any dealers that actually had 2 new ones in stock. The 50 dollar rebate + 2 magazines per purchase was a huge selling point. I thought about renting a glock and an m&p and trying both but I don't think I would be able to put enough rounds through each to ever know for sure so I just settled on buying one type for now and maybe comming back for the other later. It always seems that our favorite guns are the ones we own anyway. I'll just work hard and become proficient with what I've purchased.
I'm also of the opinion that practice (even if it's not exactly how you would go about the business of a gunfight) is always good. Hell just firing your pistol a few hundred times and finally getting rid of all the flinching makes you a better shooter even if your just shooting at dead log. Speed changing magazines, breaking your gun down after shooting or clearing a jamb after not cleaning your gun after shooting the last few times (was that out loud?) can only make you better at shooting and firearm familiarity.
What I didn't expect after getting into this type of mindset (competition) was that I would actually be even more excited about taking some classes. I was mainly interested in classes that would get me familiar with games but I've noticed a ton of combat and self defense classes that would be great! Somebody mentioned one in the keys and was wondering if that was convenient and i was like since when was the Keys and Firearms ever inconvenient!?!?!?!?
I'm excited about my new purchases but now for more q's.....
Holster for competition... what do ya'll use?
Ammo for competition... again what brand, line, grain and why? (i'm doing 9mm here but other opinions on other cals would be great)
Good hearing protection... her biggest beef is the noise and the hearing loss when she shoots with me (I just use earplugs and I'm not bothered, I don't think she's using them correctly) what do ya'll use?
Thanks again everybody... i'm going to go tear these two little bundles of second ammendment rights and put them back together again a couple of times.
:D
Find somebody to do custom molded earplugs for her. I just got a set each for me, the woman, and the boy. They worked great for his first outing to the range.
A Bladetech, or Uncle Mikes OWB holster will be fine. You don't have to spend a fortune on one. Ammo? What ever the cheapest 9mil is. The custom molded plugs are great. Regardless, I would do the plugs and muffs.
Alpha Sierra
03-04-08, 18:26
I use my concealment holsters for IDPA. Right now that's a K&D Cochise Defender (IWB) or FIST #9 (OWB) for my S&W Model 65. For my S&W 915 it's either another Cochise Defender or a Don Hume JIT Slide for OWB. When I shoot a semi auto I burn whatever the cheapest 9x19 that I can find. Lately that's been CCI Blazer Brass. When I shoot one of my revolvers, I shoot my reloads.
......I'll just work hard and become proficient with what I've purchased.
Sounds like your outlook is better than anyone here could improve on. :)
......Holster for competition... what do ya'll use?
Ammo for competition... again what brand, line, grain and why? (i'm doing 9mm here but other opinions on other cals would be great)
Good hearing protection... her biggest beef is the noise and the hearing loss when she shoots with me (I just use earplugs and I'm not bothered, I don't think she's using them correctly) what do ya'll use?
+1 with the others on starting out with the most basic holster available, so long as it functions well and is safe. Probably stay away from any of the floppy soft nylon things, but a basic kydex Uncle Mike's or equivalent is fine.
Going to matches definitely will not decrease your ammo consumption. There is about a break-even point cost-wise with 9mm between reloading versus store-bought plinking brands (WWB, etc.). Competing with just about any other caliber necessitates reloading to constrain the expense.
Both I and my wife use those disposable foam-type plugs, which actually work better than muffs but only if you get them inserted exactly right. Muffs are a lot easier to just slap on and off, and electronic ones will allow normal level conversation as well (not having to yell at each other the whole time). Especailly helpful at matches where you need to be able to hear what the range officer and score keeper are saying. Some of the better models can get very expensive, but a set I recently bought work "well enough" and cost a lot less. See here: http://www.opticsplanet.net/peltor-tactical-hearing-protectors.html
Failure2Stop
03-05-08, 07:58
Holster-
In a perfect world we would use the same holster we carry to compete with (as is the IDPA outlook). The reality is that virtually no one does. It can be for a variety of reasons, but most often is the competative advantage. A blade-tech OWB is appreciably faster than a Milt Sparks VM2.
I shoot in two divisions of IDPA (SSP and CDP), and three in USPSA (Prodo, Single Stack, and Lim). For IDPA I use two different holsters, a VM2 for my Glock 19, and a Galco(:( ) OWB for my 1911. For USPSA I use Blade-Tech for all my pistols.
Ammo- I shoot just about anything in 9mm or .45, but I have to make sure that the .40 is making major for USPSA. I ususally just grab Win White Box, but I usually have a bunch of mixed .45 that I will shoot.
In the perfect world I would shoot my carry ammo in IDPA, and I occasionally will (abour once every three months) when I rotate my defensive ammo. The simple fact that good defensive ammo is expensive is what keeps me frm making commonn practice of it.
Ear Pro-
I prefer MSA Sordins, but the Peltors work (for a while). The foamies are good, but significantly reduce your ability to hear instructions, which will be important for your first outing.
Now go get some ammo and shoot.
Do it.
Stop thinking about it.
Seriously.
I try to take the intent of IDPA seriously, and as such I shoot from the same holster I carry in every day; a VMI for the 1911. I also carry the same way I do every day; under an untucked polo or hawaiian shirt. I am still competitive in my division.
I don't personally believe that weighted vests, straight-drop holsters, and the like do anything to make a difference in the outcome for 95% of the shooters that use them. At the Master level maybe, but they are pretty few and far between.
Alpha Sierra
03-05-08, 18:31
Holster-
In a perfect world we would use the same holster we carry to compete with. The reality is that virtually no one does.
I do.
I, too, use one holster for carry, competition, practice, teaching, etc. While I like to pound my chest and tell people I do this because I'm preparing for the real world the reality is that I'm just too dumb to switch back and forth without screwing something up eventually. :cool:
I've been using a holster made to my specifications by Custom Carry Concepts (http://www.shop.customcarryconcepts.com/product.sc?categoryId=3&productId=10) for a little over three months and I've been really happy with it. It's fast, secure, and unlike a lot of kydex IWBs that are popular today it does not rely on easily bent and broken kydex belt clips.
+3 on the carry holster (and carry gun for that matter) used in competition.
I'm not good enough that race gear would make a difference in my scores.
But I am poor enough that it would make a difference in my wallet. :rolleyes:
Alaskapopo
03-08-08, 23:49
Good on ya. I am an active NRA long range rifle competitor and way too many times I've seen what you just described. People showing up with completely unsuitable or non-compliant (to the rules of what I shoot) rifles and then are pissed off or disappointed.
I think IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Association) pistol competition is what will be the most enjoyable, most relevant (to an armed civilian), and most affordable form of handgun sport.
I shoot both IDPA and USPSA. IDPA is fun but USPSA is a lot more fun. Too many restrictions on round count and stage designs in IDPA. Also both are games and not relevant to real life at all.
Pat
A Navy Seal friend of mine was incognito at a Match one time and got lectured on how he didn't shoot the stage "Tactically". He just smiled and we all got a chuckle out of the RO's lecture... ;)
But I believe that MIS (Match Induced Stress) is a good way to take you out of your comfort zone. And if there's a problem with YOU or your equipment, you'll find out in a match. And no mater what happens, you get to go home afterwards (as opposed to the hospital or morgue :eek: ). :cool:
For those interested, here's a link to the Tactical Shooting Association (TSA) Rule Book:
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/tsa/rulebook.html
And our "Street Gun National Match" is coming up October 18 & 19 !!! :cool:
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/photos2/sgndvd_front.jpg
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/photos2/sgndvd_back.jpg
Cheers,
D.R. Middlebrooks
Tactical Shooting Academy
......For those interested, here's a link to the Tactical Shooting Association (TSA)......
Hey, this TSA looks way-cool ! ! !
I had no idea you guys had all this going on, and practically right next door (I'm in Richmond). I'm going to check-out your web site, and see about catching up with you all at some point.
BTW - my sole handgun is a Glock 19, and I have a relatively plain-jane AR and Rem. 11-87. Think I'd "fit in"? :rolleyes:
Yep, you'd fit right in with the rest of the crew. Our Matches are held on the 1st Saturday of each month. We're working on some 3-Gun dates now, too... :cool:
D.R.
Yep, you'd fit right in.......
Thanks. Nice web site BTW.
......We're working on some 3-Gun dates now.....
Would be very interested there. Most things around are pistol only.
DRM - I'm looking foward to making it out for one of your matches.
DRM - I'm looking foward to making it out for one of your matches.
Cool! :cool: Look forward to meeting you...
They're holding one this Saturday here at my school, but I won't be here, as I'll be teaching a class in Key Largo April 3-4. :) :cool:
But just remember we hold matches on the 1st Saturday of each month and the TSA Nationals will be held the 3rd weekend in October. :eek:
Dave Sevigny, Ricks Simes and some other Grand Masters are coming, so it will be a blast.
Cheers,
D.R. Middlebrooks
www.TacticalShooting.com
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