View Full Version : Assessing a custom AR shop?
In all the current craziness, was looking around online and found a place that does custom AR-15 builds:
http://www.sterlingarsenal.com/Home_Page.php
This is how they describe their basic build:
- Forged 7775-T6 70-Rockwell anodized matched adjustible tension lower and upper receivers.
- SAR Match stainless steel 16” barrel, 0.825-0.925 custom contoured; 1:8 twist; mid-length gas port; M4 feed ramps, 5.56MM, available in satin stainless, beadblast, or Arsenal Ceramic Coat finish.
- SAR National Match chromed steel bolt carrier group with 7075-T6 billet 70-Rockwell charging handle.
- Integrated direct impingement, adjustible gas block, or piston with locking front flip sight, bayonet lug, and locking low profile rear flip sight or low profile block.
- Hand tuned and polished single stage forged fire controls.
- MOE mil spec stock, hand guards, and pistol grip, in Black, Dark Earth, OD, or Foliage Green.
- Ambidextrous Sling Adaptor Plate.
- P-Mag w/window round count indicator 30-round magazine.
- Additional custom upgrade options available including barrel lengths, floating handguards, stocks, billet fire controls, muzzle devices, calibers (6.8 SPC; 300 BLK; 458 SOCOM, 9MM), and more...
How much does this say about their builds, and what more should someone know about them -- parts, suppliers, etc. -- to assess their quality?
CrazyFingers
01-11-13, 11:40
It really doesn't say much.
1/8 twist, while not necessarily screaming "garbage", raises a red flag.
Your description doesn't mention high pressure test/magnetic particle inspection for the bolt or the barrel, which raises another flag.
I'd recommend reading the supplied sticky threads at the top of the forums to educate yourself on what to look for in a quality AR, then you'll be able to determine for yourself if the rifle meets your established personal requirements.
You DO have a set of requirements for this rifle, right?
It really doesn't say much.
1/8 twist, while not necessarily screaming "garbage", raises a red flag.
Your description doesn't mention high pressure test/magnetic particle inspection for the bolt or the barrel, which raises another flag.
I'd recommend reading the supplied sticky threads at the top of the forums to educate yourself on what to look for in a quality AR, then you'll be able to determine for yourself if the rifle meets your established personal requirements.
You DO have a set of requirements for this rifle, right?I'm learning. I've studied "The List" and the companion sheet explaining it. My requirements thus far are broad: top level reliability, simple, and home/property defense accurate.
Without simply linking the shop The List and saying, "Do you meet it?" or barraging them with questions, both of which I think are too much for an opener, I'm trying to determine a good basic set of specific questions.
I'm learning. I've studied "The List" and the companion sheet explaining it. My requirements thus far are broad: top level reliability, simple, and home/property defense accurate.
Without simply linking the shop The List and saying, "Do you meet it?" or barraging them with questions, both of which I think are too much for an opener, I'm trying to determine a good basic set of specific questions.
Based on you criteria, skip the custom shop and buy a basic Colt, LMT, BCM, DD (comes with a rail), or even a Smith M&P (non-sport).
Based on you criteria, skip the custom shop and buy a basic Colt, LMT, BCM, DD (comes with a rail), or even a Smith M&P (non-sport).If I had it my way, that's exactly what I'd do and go with a plain 6920. But at two-to-three times MSRP for all of these makers right now (save the occasional lightning-strike), I'm looking into alternatives.
skullworks
01-11-13, 12:24
It really doesn't say much.
Agreed; a "custom" AR is nothing like getting a custom 1911 or a custom bolt action rifle. A "custom" AR is nine times out of ten nothing more complicated than installing part X instead of part Y without any custom tuning by the person putting it all together. This is why you can find a metric shit-tonne of people saying, "I just put together my own AR, and now I'm thinking about doing my own 1911."
Not to pee in anyone's cereal, but ARs are pretty close to Meccano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meccano) or LEGOs as to the level of gunsmithing or custom work normally required.
1/8 twist, while not necessarily screaming "garbage", raises a red flag.
Not necessarily; Lothar Walter and JP among others use 1/8 - and those barrels are pretty darn accurate. I would say that brand of manufacture is more important than rate of twist in this instance.
clmarshall21
01-11-13, 12:47
In all the current craziness, was looking around online and found a place that does custom AR-15 builds:
http://www.sterlingarsenal.com/Home_Page.php
This is how they describe their basic build:
- Forged 7775-T6 70-Rockwell anodized matched adjustible tension lower and upper receivers.
- SAR Match stainless steel 16” barrel, 0.825-0.925 custom contoured; 1:8 twist; mid-length gas port; M4 feed ramps, 5.56MM, available in satin stainless, beadblast, or Arsenal Ceramic Coat finish.
- SAR National Match chromed steel bolt carrier group with 7075-T6 billet 70-Rockwell charging handle.
- Integrated direct impingement, adjustible gas block, or piston with locking front flip sight, bayonet lug, and locking low profile rear flip sight or low profile block.
- Hand tuned and polished single stage forged fire controls.
- MOE mil spec stock, hand guards, and pistol grip, in Black, Dark Earth, OD, or Foliage Green.
- Ambidextrous Sling Adaptor Plate.
- P-Mag w/window round count indicator 30-round magazine.
- Additional custom upgrade options available including barrel lengths, floating handguards, stocks, billet fire controls, muzzle devices, calibers (6.8 SPC; 300 BLK; 458 SOCOM, 9MM), and more...
How much does this say about their builds, and what more should someone know about them -- parts, suppliers, etc. -- to assess their quality?
Perhaps this is so... But I have never heard of 7775-T6 Aluminum before (obviously that doesn't mean it doesn't exist). Looks like their spec sheet might have a typo though.
skullworks
01-11-13, 13:07
Yeah, that should probably be 7075 T6.
Tapatapatapatalk
Why does 1/8 raise a "red flag"?
It really doesn't say much.
1/8 twist, while not necessarily screaming "garbage", raises a red flag.
Your description doesn't mention high pressure test/magnetic particle inspection for the bolt or the barrel, which raises another flag.
I'd recommend reading the supplied sticky threads at the top of the forums to educate yourself on what to look for in a quality AR, then you'll be able to determine for yourself if the rifle meets your established personal requirements.
You DO have a set of requirements for this rifle, right?
snakedoctor
01-11-13, 13:20
Why does 1/8 raise a "red flag"?
Exactly what I was thinking. :blink:
Why does 1/8 raise a "red flag"?
+1.
I have a special run lightweight Noveske 1/8 that is nearly ammo-indifferent in its 1 or less MOA performance. BCM stainless steel are 1/8 too.
CrazyFingers
01-11-13, 13:48
Why does 1/8 raise a "red flag"?
As others have mentioned, the OP would likely be best served with a vanilla 6920, BCM M4, Daniel Defense M4, etc. All of these rifles feature a 1:7 twist barrel. This has become a defacto standard for entry-level rifles among respected manufacturers whose standard offerings are based off the TDP. As I said, 1:8 does not mean the barrel is garbage. However, when a custom AR shop is touting this in their feature list, I assume there is some reason they chose this twist rate over what Colt, BCM, DD, etc. have settled on as the best option for their entry-level ARs. This vendor does not give any explanation as to why they chose to go a different route.
BCM stainless steel are 1/8 too.
Sure, but that's not what they use in their entry level "basic build", which is what the OP was describing.
Perhaps I misspoke by saying "red flag", I meant more that it raised a question of why they would decide to deviate from a seemingly established baseline (or why they'd use a SS barrel in their "basic build") without explaining why. Coupled with the lack of other pertinent information in their feature list, my overall impression was less than enthusiastic.
constructor
01-11-13, 14:50
It really doesn't say much.
1/8 twist, while not necessarily screaming "garbage", raises a red flag.
Your description doesn't mention high pressure test/magnetic particle inspection for the bolt or the barrel, which raises another flag.
I'd recommend reading the supplied sticky threads at the top of the forums to educate yourself on what to look for in a quality AR, then you'll be able to determine for yourself if the rifle meets your established personal requirements.
You DO have a set of requirements for this rifle, right?
Why would 8 twist raise a flag? Many real match grade rifles use a 8 or 7.7 twist rate and most 7 twist barrels are production grade tough 4150 and chrome lined which is fine for a combat rifle but may not be as accurate as some want to be. Kind of depends on what he wants to use the barrel for.
In addition, an 8 twist will handle all .224 bullets from 35gr to 80gr VLDs. The only reason the military started using the 7 twist was to stabilize tracers.
The 90gr VLDs used by some highpower shooters need a 6.5 twist to stabilize.
CrazyFingers
01-11-13, 14:55
Why would 8 twist raise a flag? Many real match grade rifles use a 8 or 7.7 twist rate and most 7 twist barrels are production grade tough 4150 and chrome lined which is fine for a combat rifle but may not be as accurate as some want to be. Kind of depends on what he wants to use the barrel for.
Sure. Except the OP described the item as their basic build, indicating parity with other "basic builds" from other manufacturers, such as 6920s, BCM M4, DD M4, etc.
As my follow-up post explained.
He states that his "requirements thus far are broad: top level reliability, simple, and home/property defense accurate."
That doesn't seem to indicate he's looking for a match-grade target rifle with a SS barrel.
polymorpheous
01-11-13, 15:16
What's the bolt made out of?
Seems like the description is not intended to describe basic ar, but this particular shop's entry level offering. look at barrel's contour, it is a heavy match grade bbl. other features like adjustable gas block etc to me indicate they are not trying to compete with rack-grade mil spec offerings.
to op: I am not feeling much love towards this one. heavy match grade bbl (but free float forend is optional, not standard), adjustable block, don't know what's their niche. Bayo lug??
I'd pass.
CrazyFingers
01-11-13, 16:03
to op: I am not feeling much love towards this one. heavy match grade bbl (but free float forend is optional, not standard), adjustable block, don't know what's their niche. Bayo lug??
I'd pass.
That's exactly where I was coming from. Obviously his choices are more limited than they have been in the recent past, but unless he's interested in the specific features this rifle is sporting it's probably not worth his time to dig any deeper into the other specifications.
You didn't say what they were charging for the above mentioned rifle, but I have no doubt you could assemble a better rifle for less money.
Get on some 'notify me when back in stock lists', and move fast when you get the email, and you can probably do it at fairly normal prices.
What's the bolt made out of?Undetermined.
You didn't say what they were charging for the above mentioned rifle, but I have no doubt you could assemble a better rifle for less money.Before the current panic, $1100, near as I can tell. Once the dust settles, who knows?
Did you know that Bravo Company makes a 1/8 SS410 barrel? Rainier Arms Select/Match Series 1/8, LaRue Tactical 1/8, etc....
As others have mentioned, the OP would likely be best served with a vanilla 6920, BCM M4, Daniel Defense M4, etc. All of these rifles feature a 1:7 twist barrel. This has become a defacto standard for entry-level rifles among respected manufacturers whose standard offerings are based off the TDP. As I said, 1:8 does not mean the barrel is garbage. However, when a custom AR shop is touting this in their feature list, I assume there is some reason they chose this twist rate over what Colt, BCM, DD, etc. have settled on as the best option for their entry-level ARs. This vendor does not give any explanation as to why they chose to go a different route.
Sure, but that's not what they use in their entry level "basic build", which is what the OP was describing.
Perhaps I misspoke by saying "red flag", I meant more that it raised a question of why they would decide to deviate from a seemingly established baseline (or why they'd use a SS barrel in their "basic build") without explaining why. Coupled with the lack of other pertinent information in their feature list, my overall impression was less than enthusiastic.
The 1/8 twist issue seems definitively addressed. ;)
But I'd welcome anyone who chimed in on that to help with the original question. I notice what seems to be an almost disproportionate number of members from Northern Virginia here, where the shop in question is located. Perhaps they've had some experiences or could lend insight?
CrazyFingers
01-12-13, 13:22
Edit - nevermind.
The 1/8 twist issue seems definitively addressed. ;)
But I'd welcome anyone who chimed in on that to help with the original question. I notice what seems to be an almost disproportionate number of members from Northern Virginia here, where the shop in question is located. Perhaps they've had some experiences or could lend insight?
I'm in NOVA fairly active in the firearms community and I've even been in to the shop in question. Had no idea they made their own rifles and have never heard/seen anyone with experience with them either...
I'm in NOVA as well (about a half hour from this shop) and have not heard of them either. I was planning on checking them out, partially due to this thread; I still could if you're interested in whatever not-particularly-relevant first impressions I get of them. As mentioned by others, I think the lack of info on specific testing is the real red flag with this builder.
I'm in NOVA fairly active in the firearms community and I've even been in to the shop in question. Had no idea they made their own rifles and have never heard/seen anyone with experience with them either...
I'm in NOVA as well (about a half hour from this shop) and have not heard of them either. I was planning on checking them out, partially due to this thread; I still could if you're interested in whatever not-particularly-relevant first impressions I get of them. As mentioned by others, I think the lack of info on specific testing is the real red flag with this builder.My thanks to you both for the offers. Don't want anyone to go out of their way, but if you end up checking them out and have some thoughts, would appreciate hearing them.
Price??
Due to recent events, we understand that you probably cannot get your hands on a complete BCM/LMT/Colt/Noveske/DD/etc. for 2 reasons: 1) lack of availability or 2) too ridiculous of a price.
That said, what is your threshold for "too much money"?
With the exception of complete BCG's/mags/ammo, you can buy just about everything else (and quality components) at pre-Sandy-Hook prices (or close to). Something to consider, I think.
Reading a wall of text doesn't really help you "assess" quality -- you're going to have to see for yourself (or at least be given visibility into what exactly goes into their "custom" builds).
maybe i just havn't been shopping enough, but who needs a custom ar?
it seems like the off the shelf offerings from noveske, jp, centurion, larue etc are more than enough to satisfy the exotic and hyper accurate desires of just about anyone.
if there were any need for a custom ar, some of the above mentioned manufacturers can customize an order with rail swaps, muzzle devices, barrel contour or material etc.
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