View Full Version : When Will Israel Stop The Attacks Once And For All?
I think I might throw my TV out the window if hear about another rocket attack killing an Israeli child while playing outside. We would never tolerate that here, why must they continue to do so? We have a Republican president in office and are in Iraq and Afghanistan to back them if necessary, so now should be the time. Again, Rice is planning to waste more time trying to broker a peace treaty with those that will settle for nothing less than the destruction of Israel in the end. Then, if they succeeded with their planned genocide, it would be our turn (in their dreams). When is enough enough for god's sake?? After watching the savage display known as the Arafat "funeral", I have absolutely no sympathy for those animals and yearn to see the needed decisive actions taken. I hope most here feel the same.
Nathan_Bell
03-01-08, 10:04
I think I might throw my TV out the window if hear about another rocket attack killing an Israeli child while playing outside. We would never tolerate that here, why must they continue to do so? We have a Republican president in office and are in Iraq and Afghanistan to back them if necessary, so now should be the time. Again, Rice is planning to waste more time trying to broker a peace treaty with those that will settle for nothing less than the destruction of Israel in the end. Then, if they succeeded with their planned genocide, it would be our turn (in their dreams). When is enough enough for god's sake?? After watching the savage display known as the Arafat "funeral", I have absolutely no sympathy for those animals and yearn to see the needed decisive actions taken. I hope most here feel the same.
Slight hijack, but in the same vein.
What is pissing me off about the situation is the 'poor innocent PA civilians" BS that is reported whenever the Isrealis strike back. These folks elected a terrorist organization as their government, an organization that states in its charter that it wants to eliminate Isreal.
The Isrealis' war is not just with the leaders of that shithole, it is with the entire population of the territories, and these stupid little brushfire battles will continue until either Isreal goes the way of the dodo, or they realize it and kill about 3/4 of the male population of the territories.
/rant off
Submariner
03-01-08, 10:31
How did you feel about the Afrikaners and the ANC?
the1911fan
03-01-08, 10:36
I think I might throw my TV out the window if hear about another rocket attack killing an Israeli child while playing outside. We would never tolerate that here, why must they continue to do so? We have a Republican president in office and are in Iraq and Afghanistan to back them if necessary, so now should be the time. Again, Rice is planning to waste more time trying to broker a peace treaty with those that will settle for nothing less than the destruction of Israel in the end. Then, if they succeeded with their planned genocide, it would be our turn (in their dreams). When is enough enough for god's sake?? After watching the savage display known as the Arafat "funeral", I have absolutely no sympathy for those animals and yearn to see the needed decisive actions taken. I hope most here feel the same.
Some people (Ron Paul) believes in letting Israel go it alone...no US funding at all....real wise policy there Ronny BOY.
World War III's been going on for a few years already...why not just kick it up a few more notches.
Some people (Ron Paul) believes in letting Israel go it alone...no US funding at all....real wise policy there Ronny BOY.
If you feel the need to fund Israel, by all means send as much as you want, or even organize a group to do it. The US Constitution does not support it.
If you feel the need to fund Israel, by all means send as much as you want, or even organize a group to do it. The US Constitution does not support it.
Please, by all means, present for us your reasoning as to why we should not help Israel fight radical islam.
We are helping Israel since the majority of the weapons that they use they have gotten from us.
There is no way to stop fighting that has been going on for years. Much the same with the Sunnis and Shiites, who have been fighting for centuries. The history will never be changed unless they want to and they don't. It sucks but it happens. Israel does not need our help, they have done a good enough job on their own, hence the "everyone must" serve in the IDF. I think the US should do the same IMO.
RAM Engineer
03-01-08, 14:14
We are helping Israel since the majority of the weapons that they use they have gotten from us.
Israel does not need our help, they have done a good enough job on their own...
Ah...consistency of thought...:rolleyes:
Guess I should have said "They don't need TROOP help". Thought people would have realized that given their history of winning wars by themselves (troop wise).
There is no way to stop fighting that has been going on for years.
Totally incorrect.
The history will never be changed unless they want to and they don't.
Israel does not want peace? How do you come to that conclusion?
Totally incorrect.
Israel does not want peace? How do you come to that conclusion?
I was not talking about Israel not wanting peace, I was talking about the Terrorists that insist on striking against Israel.
the1911fan
03-01-08, 16:04
If you feel the need to fund Israel, by all means send as much as you want, or even organize a group to do it. The US Constitution does not support it.
A Christian that does not support Israel..is that the LDS stance on Israel?
I guess by funding/supporting any of our allies we are violating the Constitution. Glad when we needed help as a nation early on France did not take that route.
A Christian that does not support Israel..is that the LDS stance on Israel?
I guess by funding/supporting any of our allies we are violating the Constitution. Glad when we needed help as a nation early on France did not take that route.
You are correct. I do believe that once we turn our backs on Israel, we as a Nation (Under God) are doomed.
I am actually in favor of just letting Israel turn all the countries around them into a glass parking lot. ;)
C4
Submariner
03-01-08, 17:22
Please, by all means, present for us your reasoning as to why we should not help Israel fight radical islam.
You changed the issue. He said the Constitution doesn't support it. The burden on you is show that it does to expose his error.
Which enumerated power gives Congress the authority to tax us or borrow against our future tax payments and send it to another country for any purpose? Did you know Congress sends money to Egypt as well as Israel? Do you think any of that "aid" enables Egypt to free up money that somehow helps radical Islam?
Here's the test:
1. Is it Constitutional?
2. Do we need it?
3. Can we afford it?
You don't get to #2 and #3 until you satisfactorily address#1. Oh, and did you get the memo that the US is broke?
As Henry Hyde said to Ron Paul when Rep. Paul attempted to introduce a declaration of war against Iraq,
There are things in the Constitution that have been overtaken by events, by time. Declaration of war is one of them. There are things no longer relevant to a modern society. Why declare war if you don't have to? We are saying to the President, use your judgment. So, to demand that we declare war is to strengthen something to death. You have got a hammerlock on this situation, and it is not called for. Inappropriate, anachronistic, it isn't done anymore.
It's like the Decider is reputed to have said, the Constitution "is just a g--d-----d piece of paper."
Besides, Israel doesn't need the United States:
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses; But we will remember the name of the Lord our God. Ps. 20:7
They are a godly nation. They have honest weights and measures. Defend the widow and fatherless. Same law for native-born and foreigner. In short, the State of Israel does none of the things that caused Isaiah to bring God's covenantal lawsuit against Israel earlier in history. (See Isaiah Ch. 1,2.) Right?
Right.....
Please, by all means, present for us your reasoning as to why we should not help Israel fight radical islam.
A Christian that does not support Israel..is that the LDS stance on Israel?
I would be happy to give you that reasoning if I had indicated that I do not support Israel. But I in fact did not make any such indication. My response was to the1911fan's statement on the wisdom of Ron Paul's stance on no funding to Israel. I responded in kind that the US Constitution does not support any such funding. I also responded that private citizens or groups are free to support Israel monetarily in any way they see fit. Heck, go join the IDF if you want. How either of you interpreted that as a lack of my support for Israel is beyond me.
the1911fan
03-01-08, 18:26
I would be happy to give you that reasoning if I had indicated that I do not support Israel. But I in fact did not make any such indication. My response was to the1911fan's statement on the wisdom of Ron Paul's stance on no funding to Israel. I responded in kind that the US Constitution does not support any such funding. I also responded that private citizens or groups are free to support Israel monetarily in any way they see fit. Heck, go join the IDF if you want. How either of you interpreted that as a lack of my support for Israel is beyond me.
I guess your support of Israel is in spirit only (unless you clarify it)....nothing material/ nothing real
A Christian that does not support Israel..is that the LDS stance on Israel?
No, it is not.
I should really stay out of this because it hits so close to home and I am not real good at forming feelings into words. I just wish that the Palestinian people had a standard of living that would make them not want to go to war.
I feel sorry for the kids they indoctrinate to be homicide bombers. I do not like the way the Arab nations use the Palestinian people as their pawns. I am however older now and realize that things are the way they are. Israel must be defended at all costs. Some of the Arab nations might seem friendly to the USA but make no mistake about it they are using us for what they can get. 911 taught us a severe lesson that we should never forget. I really hate politics because a lot of innocent people get killed because of it but Israel must be defended at all costs.
I would be happy to give you that reasoning if I had indicated that I do not support Israel. But I in fact did not make any such indication. My response was to the1911fan's statement on the wisdom of Ron Paul's stance on no funding to Israel. I responded in kind that the US Constitution does not support any such funding. I also responded that private citizens or groups are free to support Israel monetarily in any way they see fit. Heck, go join the IDF if you want. How either of you interpreted that as a lack of my support for Israel is beyond me.
That was some smoke and mirrors show, however your lack of support for Israel appears evident.
Let me ask you, what would even persuade you to knit pick the scenario as you and Submariner are? How many billions of dollars are wasted by this country annually for questionable allies and pure shit? Here we have true die hards that see things our way on the most important issue of our time and you seek to criticize our support of them? I have seen this attitude before, and as bizarre as people can be this just baffles the crap out of me.
I am actually in favor of just letting Israel turn all the countries around them into a glass parking lot. ;)
C4
Well, I wouldn't have been the one to go there first, but I will quickly follow your lead.
Just hit around the great monuments so we can finally visit them without fear of kidnapping, homicide bombers and decapitation. :)
Israelis have gone from the persecuted Jews of Europe to become some of the most efficient military forces on earth, no doubt because of the support from the US.
However, I will be happy when we stop trying to be the Worlds Policeman and let some of these issues settle themselves. I am ok with supporting Israel with milsurp and training, but not with US troops. We can't even control and secure our own borders, why are we trying to secure anyone elses? We will still be trying to find peace in the Middle East even as our own economy and society collapse around us. Kill the terrorists and be done with it.
I spent all my military years as a medic, I think that I view warfare in a different light than most, my battles were to save lives not take them.
Bulldog1967
03-01-08, 20:41
Israelis have gone from the persecuted Jews of Europe to become some of the most efficient military forces on earth, no doubt because of the support from the US.
However, I will be happy when we stop trying to be the Worlds Policeman and let some of these issues settle themselves. I am ok with supporting Israel with milsurp and training, but not with US troops. We can't even control and secure our own borders, why are we trying to secure anyone elses? We will still be trying to find peace in the Middle East even as our own economy and society collapse around us. Kill the terrorists and be done with it.
Besides the obvioius cross training of forces, what troops are you talking about.
Israel needs to take out the trash, the sooner the better.
It was more a statement of not committing US troops to Israels problem with the Palestinians, I support training and supply as being necessary to preserve the State of Israel, but think we should use our troops to secure our own borders.
I am all for killing the terrorists wherever they are, but for Israel to truly be an independent state then it needs to take care of business and stop worrying about how the world media will portray the actions or waiting for US support.
I spent all my military years as a medic, I think that I view warfare in a different light than most, my battles were to save lives not take them.
And as very honorable as that fact is, it is not relevant to the overall scenario. With all due respect.
As well, I believe a big reason Israel has not already hit Iran's nuclear facilities is because of U.S. pressure, not because they are indecisive or weak. In that regard, we are essentially part of the problem.
SV650Squid
03-01-08, 23:01
The only support Israel needs is for the UN to get out of their business, and let them take care of their terrorist problem.
TraderJack
03-02-08, 02:53
When I read the headline of the thread I thought this was a rant against the Israelis. I'm glad to see it was otherwise.
The Israelis are our friends and as such the US should bring it's full might to support their situation over there, as friends should. If that means monetary support, then that's what it should be. If they need more ammo, send it. More tanks, send them.
It's not a Constitutional issue and it is wrong of Mr. Paul to be saying it is. It's an issue of State. It's about International Sovereignty. If Israel is allowed to fall, the entire region will destabalize. If Israel is allowed to fall, an entire nation will have been obliterated from the earth. If Israel is allowed to fall, the US will be culpable in every way. We just cannot allow that to happen.
It's really bad over there, and I don't have a clue how to fix it. But we don't turn our back on our friends.
1) Israel does not need help, they are doing good on their own (Troop wise) since 1948 they have won more wars than we (US) have. History does not lie.
2) This will never end, look at history, it is a "gimme" they (Palastinians and the like) do not want Israel to be their own country. They have been fighting way before they declared their own country.
Hence the point I tried to make earlier but some people had to read into it, HISTORY always repeats, look at the facts and one shall see.
1) Israel does not need help, they are doing good on their own (Troop wise) since 1948 they have won more wars than we (US) have. History does not lie.
2) This will never end, look at history, it is a "gimme" they (Palastinians and the like) do not want Israel to be their own country. They have been fighting way before they declared their own country.
Hence the point I tried to make earlier but some people had to read into it, HISTORY always repeats, look at the facts and one shall see.
Scarecrow, you seem to be of good intent, but you also seem to be forgetting that one of the primary reasons Israel has done so well against the muslims is because of direct and indirect U.S. support. Yes they are tireless, dedicated fighters, but we have supplied them with tons of weapons and technology and kept many other potential attackers at bay.
As well, it does not matter if people have been fighting for 10, 100 or 1,000 years. If one defeats the other in a way so decisive that they can never regroup or can only possibly do so in decades if not centuries, then the goal is achieved.
Think positive. :cool:
Our support of Israel, in my mind, is right up there with slavery and deporting Indians around the continent. It serves our purposes at times to deal with people who do not represent our standards in order to further our policies - like supporting various central American tinpots. It made sense to support Israel as a counterbalance to the Soviet Union-supported Islamic countries but that time has passed. We give an enormous amount of support to that country and for what? Supporting them gives us no strategic advantage - this is just something we have told ourselves until we believe it. We also have zero credibility in the world when we spout off about democracy and liberty and turn around and give billions of dollars annually to a country that doesn't think twice about firing antitank missiles into crowded streets, walling people off from their jobs, and running people through checkpoints ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY. They continue to build settlements in the face of their promises not to in any number of phoney-baloney peace accords. No other nation absorbs so much of our resources for no perceivable out put and no other country, except maybe the Saudis, has such a lopsided effect on our foriegn policy.
If Canada was Muslim and invaded America and used a passage in the Koran as justification, what would you do?
As has been pointed out by another member - we will run the racist Afikaner minority out of business but we will support the racist Jewish minority w/ all the guns and money we can get our hands on - this is patent horses--- and the rest of the world knows it. The Israelis are fortunate that the Palestinians are a very unsympathetic enemy - what if they were black?
If the Premillenial interpretation of the Bible is correct and God is going to establish a new Jerusalem atop the old, He is perfectly capable of attaining this without American tax dollars. The Christian thing to do is fight oppression, not support it.
My issue is not so much what the Israelis do or don't do - evil exists all over the world and you can't stop it all. What kills me is our blind support, with charges of racism levelled at all who dissent.
I love America. We have not fought war after war, desegregated, strived through all manner of difficulties internal and external and had so many painful missteps and triumphs as a nation to end up being the lap dog and bully boy of a brutal, little police state.
Gutshot John
03-03-08, 09:09
Our support of Israel, in my mind, is right up there with slavery and deporting Indians around the continent. It serves our purposes at times to deal with people who do not represent our standards in order to further our policies - like supporting various central American tinpots. It made sense to support Israel as a counterbalance to the Soviet Union-supported Islamic countries but that time has passed. We give an enormous amount of support to that country and for what? Supporting them gives us no strategic advantage - this is just something we have told ourselves until we believe it. We also have zero credibility in the world when we spout off about democracy and liberty and turn around and give billions of dollars annually to a country that doesn't think twice about firing antitank missiles into crowded streets, walling people off from their jobs, and running people through checkpoints ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY. They continue to build settlements in the face of their promises not to in any number of phoney-baloney peace accords. No other nation absorbs so much of our resources for no perceivable out put and no other country, except maybe the Saudis, has such a lopsided effect on our foriegn policy.
If Canada was Muslim and invaded America and used a passage in the Koran as justification, what would you do?
As has been pointed out by another member - we will run the racist Afikaner minority out of business but we will support the racist Jewish minority w/ all the guns and money we can get our hands on - this is patent horses--- and the rest of the world knows it. The Israelis are fortunate that the Palestinians are a very unsympathetic enemy - what if they were black?
If the Premillenial interpretation of the Bible is correct and God is going to establish a new Jerusalem atop the old, He is perfectly capable of attaining this without American tax dollars. The Christian thing to do is fight oppression, not support it.
My issue is not so much what the Israelis do or don't do - evil exists all over the world and you can't stop it all. What kills me is our blind support, with charges of racism levelled at all who dissent.
I love America. We have not fought war after war, desegregated, strived through all manner of difficulties internal and external and had so many painful missteps and triumphs as a nation to end up being the lap dog and bully boy of a brutal, little police state.
So the Israelis are the bad guys? Wow it's so clear...so cut and dry...so simplistic.
I have profound criticisms for the Israeli government, and tremendous sympathy for the Palestinians, but your analysis isn't really balanced. Deborah Gerner a political scholar wrote a book "One Land Two Peoples" that is extremely critical of Israel...and the Palestinians.
Written in the 1990s her work clearly shows Israel cannot maintain control over the West Bank/Gaza and simultaneously claim to be a force for democracy, Jewish extremists pose a significant problem for peace. There is however tremendous corruption/instability in the PA and Palestinian extremists equally pose significant problems for peace. Until each side takes stock of its position, and deals with its internal difficulties any negotiation and any subsequent peace is impossible. There are however elements in both sides that DO want peace.
The Israelis also realize this and are desperately trying to disengage, unilaterally if necessary. Rabin, Barak, Sharon and Olmert have all done this. Sadly rather than taking advantage of this, and dealing in good faith, regional extremists are not taking advantage of the change in Israeli policy, but are increasing their calls for the destruction of Israel.
So why/how do you negotiate with people that are calling for your eradication? Launching rockets into Israel is likewise not indicative of good faith negotiation.
Unless of course one is arguing for Israel's destruction, than all of the above is moot. But then one would no longer be looking for a negotiated resolution. If there is no negotiated resolution, than Israel is fully justified in what it's doing and the United States is fully justified in supporting an ally. Our current support will pay dividends when a good-faith peace negotiation does indeed begin as Israel will trust us to support her interests and we have leverage to force her to make hard choices.
A very good response. I am not pro-Palestinian, even though that would be easy to infer from my post. The Palestinians have systematically given up the moral high ground over the past several decades by embracing terror. Sort of like the IRA - in the 1920's they focused their operations against the police and military forces, but as they progressed into a marxist movement in the 60's they started indiscrimnately attacking non-military targets.
I think it is obvious that the Palestinians have been outmatched since the Zionist-variety Jews started trickling in in the early 1900's. Their lack of political sophistication allowed the Jews to end run them on pretty much every gripe they sent to Parliament when they were living under the mandate. But, as I stated in a previous thread on this topic, the fact that the Palestinians were too stupid to keep their land did not make it morally right for the Jews to take it.
Israel and Palestine are both "bad guys". Or are regular guys dominated by the ugly facets of their own societies. My gripe is not that they're bad, but that we support them being bad, overwhelmingly on the Israeli side. I hope the jews and Arabs can get along, just like I hope the Africans can get along and the Indians and Paks can get along and so on. But we are not giving any of these people the type of aid we give Israel. I wouldn't even have any probelm with aid money IF WE GOT A REQUISITE SERVICE OR PRODUCT FOR IT. When they can do 10-12 billon dollars worth of work in a year to further our interests I am all for it. Until then, the spigot should be shut. In the meantime we have gotten spies, an attack on our Navy and what I perceive as a pompous and snotty attitude toward us, their benefactor. Our credibility as a nation with the world in general and the muslim world in particular is at stake because of our slavish devotion to Israel - and listening to people like netanyahu talk, American aid is their birthright.
Every penny that goes over there is a bastardiztion of what we aspire to be as a nation.
I hope this puts the other side to my post out there. The Palestinans are criminals, directly or complicitly - just like the Israelis. They're the ones that got robbed, but they seem to be incapable of making this argument without looking like savages.
the1911fan
03-03-08, 10:24
Sort of like the IRA - in the 1920's they focused their operations against the police and military forces, but as they progressed into a marxist movement in the 60's they started indiscrimnately attacking non-military targets..
See IRA 2008...a good thing if the Palestinians could get to that condition.
Their lack of political sophistication allowed the Jews to end run them on pretty much every gripe they sent to Parliament when they were living under the mandate. But, as I stated in a previous thread on this topic, the fact that the Palestinians were too stupid to keep their land did not make it morally right for the Jews to take it. ..
I suppose the same can be said for the Native Americans..what of it
I hope this puts the other side to my post out there. The Palestinans are criminals, directly or complicitly - just like the Israelis. They're the ones that got robbed, but they seem to be incapable of making this argument clrearly and concisely.
Like Grant said "I do believe that once we turn our backs on Israel, we as a Nation (Under God) are doomed". There are many good reason to support Israel and just as many good reasons to NEVER support radical Islamic terror and those who get in bed with them or vote them as their leaders
Supporting them gives us no strategic advantage - this is just something we have told ourselves until we believe it.
This is just one of the many errors you made in your likely anti-Semitic rant that is supposed to show that you are not anti-Semitic. Forget about the overall moral situation you bypass, just the fact that a well-armed, well-informed, capable allied fighting force sitting ready to do battle in the middle of many of our enemies eludes you as a strategic advantage shows that there is no point going on to your other errors.
Just ask yourself one question, my friend. What do you think the situation would be if the palestinians were on the border/ex-border of the United States? Like to stop over the border for the afternoon? Doubt it, but if it was Israel on the other side, you would be safe (unless some palestinians were around looking to blow themselves up, of course). Those bastards would drive us insane until we struck them definitively just like they are doing to the Israelis because they are being driven by a religious fanaticism that you are not taking into account.
Having to spell this out for people is extremely frustrating as well as depressing.:(
The Palestinians have systematically given up the moral high ground over the past several decades by embracing terror.
This is essentially your only true statement.
And after September 11th, that is all that should matter to you. Stop looking to find fault just because you don't like the Israelis.
Gutshot John
03-03-08, 10:46
I find that there are no moral arguments relevant to an intractable and violent conflict. There is ample blood on both hands, but the US has a sovereign right to support its allies and support its perceived interests.
Whether we have interests in Israel is indeed a debatable point, but I don't think abandoning a standing ally under threat of terrorist violence is a good way to conduct foreign policy. So long as AQ and groups like Hezbollah continue to kill Americans, the more they drive us into Israel's camp. Likewise the US is arguably the only thing that has kept Israel from engaging in wholesale cleansing.
I'd agree in principal that the US is disproportionately biased towards Israel, but then any nation tends to be disproportionately biased towards their allies than towards a perceived common threat. This is of course natural.
This being said Israel needs to come to term with the settlement problem. It cannot incorporate this land, without incorporating a majority Palestinian population. As such if it wishes to incorporate the West Bank/Gaza it has to make a choice whether to be a democratic palestinian state or an non-democratic occupier. Simply put Israel cannot exist as a democracy and simultaneously occupy the West Bank/Gaza. Either way this means the end of Israel. That means making hard choices, wholesale disengagement from the West Bank and risking the wrath of Jewish extremists.
It should be noted that the US gives more in military and financial aid to Jordan, Egypt and SA than we do to Israel. Afghanistan is currently the largest recipient of US aid (though I suppose that might have changed in the last year).
See IRA 2008...a good thing if the Palestinians could get to that condition.
+1
I suppose the same can be said for the Native Americans..what of it
The what of it is that we totally screwed the Indians. The Indians, much like the Palestinians, were not saints themselves but this does not overide the fact that we used duplicity and brute force to take someone elses's stuff. We as a nation elicit some regret over this - so why do we want to turn around and aid and abet someone else doing what we learned was wrong over a century ago. That is a step backward.
There are many good reason to support Israel and just as many good reasons to NEVER support radical Islamic terror and those who get in bed with them or vote them as their leaders
What would some of those reasons be? Islamic terror is, in part, a reaction to getting screwed over by crooked secular Arab govenrments and the Israeli government. just like Communism would never have had any traction if there weren't a bunch of disaffected pissed off workers. The best way for established govenments to protect themselves from violent soical movements and ideologies is to act uprightly and avoid the hatred your abuse will bring you, if you enact it.
How many terror attacks were there in the 40's, 50's, and 60's? Islam hasn't changed much. Could it be that we werent screwing over Arabs in the 40's 50's etc?
I don't think Muslims necassarily deserve good treatment - but morality and decency is about your own code of behavior, not the other guys.
What would some of those reasons be? Islamic terror is, in part, a reaction to getting screwed over by crooked secular Arab govenrments and the Israeli government.
This statement speaks volumes. It reeks of sympathy and understanding.
Deplorable.
This is just one of the many errors you made in your likely anti-Semitic rant that is supposed to show that you are not anti-Semitic. Forget about the overall moral situation you bypass, just the fact that a well-armed, well-informed, capable allied fighting force sitting ready to do battle in the middle of many of our enemies eludes you as a strategic advantage shows that there is no point going on to your other errors.
It wouldn't be an honest to goodness debate about the US and Israel w/o an accusation of anti-semitism being thrown in. My opinions are driven by my patriotism and my sense of right and wrong. If we transposed this situation over some other warring factions, I would feel the same way. The fact that they are Jews has nothing to do with my opinions. it is these types of emotion driven countersalvos that ensure that there will never be any meaningful national dialogue on this issue - which works in Israel's interests.
Just ask yourself one question, my friend. What do you think the situation would be if the palestinians were on the border/ex-border of the United States? Like to stop over the border for the afternoon? Doubt it, but if it was Israel on the other side, you would be safe (unless some palestinians were around looking to blow themselves up, of course). Those bastards would drive us insane until we struck them definitively just like they are doing to the Israelis because they are being driven by a religious fanaticism that you are not taking into account.
I don't remember reading about Palestinians blowing themselves up until after a few decades of occupation, harrassment, and murder. The same goes for religious fanaticism - this is as old as Islam, but I don't think Palestine was a hotbed for fundamentalism until the last 50 years. Islam seems to encourage this type of behavior and is the worst possible faith people people in this situation could have. But there it is.
It's eay to look at the terrorism of the Palestinians and the ruthlessly effective actions of the Israelis w/o looking back a century at the roots of the conflict and why these people are pissed off in the first place. This seems to be ignored or brushed off like its no big deal. And if we weren't attaching our money and more importantly our name to this mess, it wouldn't be a big deal - to me anyway.
This statement speaks volumes. It reeks of sympathy and understanding.
Deplorable.
It reeks of facts. I don't think you're implying that the governemts of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc are even handed monuments to tolerance, fairness, and accountability are you? Or that Israel has petted and patted the Palestinians for decades only to have their kindness and compassion spurned? Come on.
To me, patriotism is about looking at your country's actions and trying to hold her to the highest standard. Patriotism is not jumping on a bandwagon and making a presumption that if we do something as a country we're right and that if people oppose us, they're wrong. I don't think there is another country on earth that has fought more good fights against bad people than America. But we are not infallible.
It is simplistic to presume, as I think you are doing, that opposition to Israel implies sympathy to terrorists. It is not about the Israelis or the Palestinians - it is about us and the kind of values we represent and how those values have to be cared for - they can be impeached or prostituted. We fight a war and free two continents from imperialism to stoop to supporting Shabra and Shatila? It is a complex situation requiring some knowledge and maturity to navigate. I'm not saying i have a monopoly on those attributes, but I'm trying.
Time for lunch.
It is simplistic to presume, as I think you are doing, that opposition to Israel implies sympathy to terrorists.
I agree, however it was your own statements that clearly show your sympathy for terrorists. That is now an undeniable fact as your numerous posts show. That knowledge and maturity of yours that you tout is not doing you much justice here.
I wonder if you would be kind enough to tell us why you think 9/11 happened? I bet that would be interesting.
Look, I started this thread to see what those here thought of the situation there. While I hoped for good, sane responses, I knew there might be some like you. So despite my desire to say things here that will either get me banned or have this thread locked, I will just leave things as they are. I for one will be sure to remember your overall views when considering your statements in future posts, perhaps others will as well. Enjoy your lunch.
I'm perfectly willing to support anyone deserving of it morally and spiritually. I'd much rather the US exercise a bit more caution with my money and the lives of my fellow countrymen.
I agree, however it was your own statements that clearly show your sympathy for terrorists. That is now an undeniable fact as your numerous posts show. That knowledge and maturity of yours that you tout is not doing you much justice here.
Whatever.
I wonder if you would be kind enough to tell us why you think 9/11 happened? I bet that would be interesting.
9/11 was the highest profile act of war in a war that has been going on, in its modern incarnation, for 50 years (?). I don't think most Americans realized we were at war until the 9/11 attacks. You could write a small book or two on the different causes. The prevailing winds sway toward simple us vs them rhetoric that I totally bought into, until I started to read about it (i would tout the Arab-Israeli Dilemma, Imperial Hubris, See No Evil, and Sleeping With the Devil as the mainstay of my reading). No one has the right to deliberately murder noncombatants and we can aggressively fight terror while disengaging from the activities that spawn it - most notably our seemingly unquestioning loyalty to Israel and Saudi Arabia. We should stop supporting these countries - at least in the current manner - BECAUSE IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. If it takes the wind out of terrorist rhetoric, that's just a bennie.
Since 1948, Israel is BUILT on violence and coercion. There is no way around it. There is no way you can come to a country and eject the indigenous people based on a belief and faith they reject. That is why US aid or not, Israel will ultimately fail - because you can't build a future based on fear and conflict.
The facts, if you look for them, are evident. Your own personal values and what you think America stands for should be evident at this point in your life. It should be obvious that America's goals and methods are incompatible w/ Israel's. If you think bulldozing people's homes, secret police, etc are in keeping with the American Way, more power to you. The world is watching.
Israel should be held to the same piss-poor standards as everyone else who recieves our financial aid. No tickee, no washee. But prejudice against muslims (deserved or not), evangelical theology, ethnic affinity and, unfortunately, the pure ignorance and apathy of the American people will keep the ball in Israel's court until the end.
Jay Cunningham
03-03-08, 15:28
All parties throttle it back a little bit.
Roger, signing off for the evening. :)
Since 1948, Israel is BUILT on violence and coercion. There is no way around it. There is no way you can come to a country and eject the indigenous people based on a belief and faith they reject. That is why US aid or not, Israel will ultimately fail - because you can't build a future based on fear and conflict.
Well, if we are going to look at things your way, let's go back before 1948. Who founded the city of Jerusalem and called it their home for over 1,000 years or more until the Roman destruction in 70AD? What gave the Muslims the right to take it after the Byzantine era? Why have we not given the Indians back America? When will Mexico get it's territories back? Shall I go on?
Listen, I am not a Jew, I am an Italian living in New Jersey. There is no bias for me regarding this topic, just my view of right and wrong. I also live in the here and now. Now, after almost 2,000 years, the Jews have Israel (Jerusalem) back. They live in a tiny strip of land that possesses their most revered religious monuments surrounded by massive muslim countries on all sides. That is and always has been their home and they got it back during a legit war. Muslims do not consider the dome of the rock to be their most holy site, in fact I believe it ranks third. You seem to be worried about the palestinians, why no sympathy for the Israeli's? Where do you want them to go? Maybe another holocaust for them, the second this century?
Maybe most importantly, I see the Israeli's as the better, more friendly, more civilized of the two. We are not infidels to them, we are equal. They have their own extremists, but I am not worried about the two dozen or so of them getting out of line. That and the fact that they hate terrorists more than us (well, most of us fortunately).
That is why US aid or not, Israel will ultimately fail
That will never happen. You do realize that in 1948 the palestinians could have had half of all the land but rejected that offer.
These discussions always get out of hand. This thread really should be locked.
I appeal to the moderator.
Scarecrow, you seem to be of good intent, but you also seem to be forgetting that one of the primary reasons Israel has done so well against the muslims is because of direct and indirect U.S. support. Yes they are tireless, dedicated fighters, but we have supplied them with tons of weapons and technology and kept many other potential attackers at bay.
As well, it does not matter if people have been fighting for 10, 100 or 1,000 years. If one defeats the other in a way so decisive that they can never regroup or can only possibly do so in decades if not centuries, then the goal is achieved.
Think positive. :cool:
I always think positive, that is my way. In my first post I tried to say that they are doing fine on their own, but others read into it. (Not my intention). I stated about the direct and indirect support from the US. Even though their Mossad is much better than our CIA, I know that we have been helping them.
There is absolutely no way to beat Terrorism, again, look back at history, terrorism in one way or another has been around for centuries. Nothing is going to change and one can not blame the Muslim religion. That is just wrong and if you look at it, christians/catholics are just as much to blame. Like it or not, that is the way of the world today, unfortunately.
:peace: Not trying to argue with anyone, just throwing in what I have learned over my years in the Military and a history student.
Scare
These discussions always get out of hand. This thread really should be locked. I appeal to the moderator.
Let's try to stay calm. :rolleyes:
Voodoochild
03-03-08, 19:48
I will caution everyone to ease back and not let this boil over into an all out shit fest.
Bulldog1967
03-03-08, 19:51
http://www.amitiesquebec-israel.org/photos/map.jpg
Israelis have gone from the persecuted Jews of Europe to become some of the most efficient military forces on earth, no doubt because of the support from the US.
Note, however, that the US did not provide Israel with any military aid or support whatsoever until after the Six Day War in June 1967.
variablebinary
03-03-08, 21:56
Israel has the right to defend their people. When the Arabs behave, they wont get bombed. Israel isnt likely to engage in pre-emptive strikes just because
I do'nt talk/argue politics.I think we should make our own house stong before we go else where. We have many issues to take care of right here first.
http://www.amitiesquebec-israel.org/photos/map.jpg
Few things sum up the absurdity of the situation better than this map. A tiny underdog spec in the middle of a sea of arabs and persians. Yet some complain that Israel just takes, takes, takes. The only motive for such statements, as this map so clearly shows, can be anti-semitism. I am not speaking of anyone here specifically but rather all in society who would feel that way. After 9/11, any American should want us to protect them for reasons we should deeply understand.
They are our best, most pro-active ally against terrorism in the middle east. Yet some want to turn their back on them because for the most petty, selfish and misguided reasons one can imagine. That bothers me as an American and as a human being.
crowkiller
03-04-08, 07:38
You are correct. I do believe that once we turn our backs on Israel, we as a Nation (Under God) are doomed.
I am actually in favor of just letting Israel turn all the countries around them into a glass parking lot. ;)
C4
I agree
Genesis 12:1-3 (King James Version)
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Well, if we are going to look at things your way, let's go back before 1948. Who founded the city of Jerusalem and called it their home for over 1,000 years or more until the Roman destruction in 70AD? What gave the Muslims the right to take it after the Byzantine era? Why have we not given the Indians back America? When will Mexico get it's territories back? Shall I go on?
We could go all the way back to the wanderings of Abraham and his meeting with Melchizedek. We could go back to the bombing of the King David Hotel. The Muslims have no right to take any city by force in the name of conquest. But we know that history is one long list of everybody doing exactly that. I look at America as an enlightened nation that uses her power to help her friends and defend her interests - not plunder other countries or oppress citizens. We shouldn't do it and we shouldn't assist others to do it. As far as the Indians and Mexico, you've got me on that one.
Listen, I am not a Jew, I am an Italian living in New Jersey. There is no bias for me regarding this topic, just my view of right and wrong. I also live in the here and now. Now, after almost 2,000 years, the Jews have Israel (Jerusalem) back. They live in a tiny strip of land that possesses their most revered religious monuments surrounded by massive muslim countries on all sides. That is and always has been their home and they got it back during a legit war. Muslims do not consider the dome of the rock to be their most holy site, in fact I believe it ranks third. You seem to be worried about the palestinians, why no sympathy for the Israeli's? Where do you want them to go? Maybe another holocaust for them, the second this century?
Sypmathetic to Jews in general, yes; the Israelis in particular, no (on the national level - I am sympathetic to the vast majority of those who suffer violence, of any nationality). Here is the distinction: Jews throughout history have gotten beat down, culminating in the holocaust. It is one thing to be an oppressed ethnic minority and quite another thing to travel land and sea to take someone else's land and establish "a national home for Jews" - the idea does not seem to take into account the people living there at the time. The Palestinians give the Torah about as much respect as I give the Koran. What might be a perfectly good justification to a Jew, or Christian for that matter, is not going to hold water with the guy who loses some of his property to a settlement the government said they wouldn't build.
Also, I guess I need to point out to you that questioning our foreign policy about Israel is not the same thing as desiring another holocaust.
What we have here are to vying points of what "right and wrong" is. The main point I was trying to make has been lost evidently. The issue is not Israel vs Palestine - the issue is our support of Israel and does it reflect who we are as a nation. The world has, is, and will be characterizedby these types of ugly religious/ethnic conflict - that's just the way it is. But we as Americans don't have to subsidize it. That is my main argument. We need to treat Israel like EVERYBODY ELSE - money for a service, favors for influence. If Israel does what she's told, i have no issue w/ support. but fat frickin chance of that.
For those who have never engaged in a debate on our policy on Israel, this has conformed along the lines of any and all I have observed or participated in:
-things get emotional, with the pro-Israeli side getting hysterical
-people who dissent about our policy toward Israel are always characterized as harboring evil, deep-seeded racist designs
-most critically, our policy must continue to be driven by emotion, sympathy, religious and ethnic affinity and NOT a cold blooded, rational appraisal of whether this special relationship helps us or hurts us
While an internet technical forum might not be the best place to discuss these matters, they must be discussed! We shy away from religious, ethnic and political discussions out of tact but all of these taboo items are the HEART AND SOUL of our stance toward Israel, the war on terror and are key to understanding the crossroads we are at as a nation. I appreciate the moderators allowing this discussion to run its course.
Gutshot John
03-04-08, 08:36
We could go all the way back to the wanderings of Abraham and his meeting with Melchizedek. We could go back to the bombing of the King David Hotel. The Muslims have no right to take any city by force in the name of conquest. But we know that history is one long list of everybody doing exactly that. I look at America as an enlightened nation that uses her power to help her friends and defend her interests - not plunder other countries or oppress citizens. We shouldn't do it and we shouldn't assist others to do it. As far as the Indians and Mexico, you've got me on that one.
Sypmathetic to Jews in general, yes; the Israelis in particular, no (on the national level - I am sympathetic to the vast majority of those who suffer violence, of any nationality). Here is the distinction: Jews throughout history have gotten beat down, culminating in the holocaust. It is one thing to be an oppressed ethnic minority and quite another thing to travel land and sea to take someone else's land and establish "a national home for Jews" - the idea does not take seem to take into account the people living there at the time. The Palestinians give the Torah about as much respect as I give the Koran. What might be a perfectly good justification to a Jew, or Christian for that matter, is not going to hold water with the guy who loses some of his property to a settlement the government said they wouldn't build.
Also, I guess I need to point out to you that questioning our foreign policy about Israel is not the same thing as desiring another holocaust.
What we have here are to vying points of what "right and wrong" is. The main point I was trying to make has been lost evidently. The issue is not Israel vs Palestine - the issue is our support of Israel and does it reflect who we are as a nation. The world has, is, and will be characterizedby these types of ugly religious/ethnic conflict - that's just the way it is. But we as Americans don't have to subsidize it. That is my main argument. We need to treat Israel like EVERYBODY ELSE - money for a service, favors for influence. If Israel does what she's told, i have no issue w/ support. but fat frickin chance of that.
For those who have never engaged in a debate on our policy on Israel, this has conformed along the lines of any and all I have observed or participated in:
-things get emotional, with the pro-Israeli side getting hysterical
-people who dissent about our policy toward Israel are always characterized as harboring evil, deep-seeded racist designs
-most critically, our policy must continue to be driven by emotion, sympathy, religious and ethnic affinity and NOT a cold blooded, rational appraisal of whether this special relationship helps us or hurts us
While an internet technical forum might not be the best place to discuss these matters, they must be discussed! We shy away from religious, ethnic and political discussions out of tact but all of these taboo items are the HEART AND SOUL of our stance toward Israel, the war on terror and are key to understanding the crossroads we are at as a nation. I appreciate the moderators allowing this discussion to run its course.
Again consider that your analysis isn't really balanced and that you're engaging in the same tactics that you claim to deplore.
Listen, I am not a Jew, I am an Italian living in New Jersey.
You are a Italian living in New Jersey. To bad your not a American of Italian descent like I am. I'm tired of Italians living and prospering in America after fleeing Italy ,which is a dump, and still having allegence to Italy. My pet peeve and a little off topic.
While an internet technical forum might not be the best place to discuss these matters, they must be discussed! We shy away from religious, ethnic and political discussions out of tact but all of these taboo items are the HEART AND SOUL of our stance toward Israel, the war on terror and are key to understanding the crossroads we are at as a nation. I appreciate the moderators allowing this discussion to run its course.
I agree whole heartedly, well said. We won't solve the world's problems here, but we can understand them better as a result of our humble discussions.
That aside, I will ask one more time for you to take a deeper look at what your real issue is. I see your last post as more of the same, knit-picking at it's best (or worst). If you are going to sit here and reiterate the same detailed information about the time line of the establishment of the country of Israel, then what about the other countries of the world that we associate with? Let's get so analytical about their origins and who was there first. The muslims think Spain is theirs, do you? What about where you are likely sitting right now? North Carolina belonged to the Indians as you have acknowledged, so maybe you should get your rear end up and go to what your criteria deems a legitimate country before you criticize the Israelis for defending theirs.
On top of everything, I see the Palestinians as a openly hostile people to the United States as well as Israel. Remember all of them cheering on 9/11? Remember the Arafat "funeral"? Well, do you, Striker5??
Again, look at the map several posts above and ask yourself what your real gripe with that little, terrorism fighting country really is. If you are willing to dig so deep for minor imperfections with the establishment of one particular country, you have a motive maybe even you don't understand for working so hard.
You are a Italian living in New Jersey. To bad your not a American of Italian descent like I am. I'm tired of Italians living and prospering in America after fleeing Italy ,which is a dump, and still having allegence to Italy. My pet peeve and a little off topic.
Yes, I am an American of Italian descent. Poor wording on my part.
Would you care to clarify the rest of your example/statement?
Again consider that your analysis isn't really balanced and that you're engaging in the same tactics that you claim to deplore.
Could you be more specific?
I agree whole heartedly, well said. We won't solve the world's problems here, but we can understand them better as a result of our humble discussions.
Thank you.
That aside, I will ask one more time for you to take a deeper look at what your real issue is. I see your last post as more of the same, knit-picking at it's best (or worst). If you are going to sit here and reiterate the same detailed information about the time line of the establishment of the country of Israel, then what about the other countries of the world that we associate with? Let's get so analytical about their origins and who was there first. The muslims think Spain is theirs, do you? What about where you are likely sitting right now? North Carolina belonged to the Indians as you have acknowledged, so maybe you should get your rear end up and go to what your criteria deems a legitimate country before you criticize the Israelis for defending theirs.
The morality of every nation is open to be questioned. My point is not that the US is perfect, but that we are not learning from our own history when we assist another country to make the same basic mistakes.
On top of everything, I see the Palestinians as a openly hostile people to the United States as well as Israel. Remember all of them cheering on 9/11? Remember the Arafat "funeral"? Well, do you, Striker5??.
I remember it well. Do you think our support for the Israelis has anything to do with it? Again, it's not because the palestinians are that sympathetic, it's about who we support and why.
Again, look at the map several posts above and ask yourself what your real gripe with that little, terrorism fighting country really is. If you are willing to dig so deep for minor imperfections with the establishment of one particular country, you have a motive maybe even you don't understand for working so hard.
We have supported all manner of bad people in our global dealings. What seperates Israel from the likes of Pinochet and Diem, etc is that we dealt with them covertly when it came to their criminal actions. This doesn't make it right but we did not tout their oppression of their own citizens as something that was acceptable to us and when they wouldn't bend we cut our ties or removed them.
If you think I'm singleing Israel out, I have very similar feelings about Saudi Arabia and China - but that is driven by simple naked greed and doesn't approach the complexity of US/Israel.
I am working so hard because it pisses me off to see so many good people get this one wrong - flat wrong - and it pisses me off to see America bend over backwards to assist a nation that does not reflect our values and accepts our money and influence, knowing that we are so whipped there is no possibility they will ever have to really toe the line on our behalf. THAT, psychoanalysis aside, is why I feel this discussion is worth my time and efforts.
I am working so hard because it pisses me off to see so many good people get this one wrong - flat wrong - and it pisses me off to see America bend over backwards to assist a nation that does not reflect our values and accepts our money and influence, knowing that we are so whipped there is no possibility they will ever have to really toe the line on our behalf. THAT, psychoanalysis aside, is why I feel this discussion is worth my time and efforts.
First, the enemy of my worst enemy is my friend, psychoanalysis aside. While this country and many others have wisely used that philosophy to their advantage, you ignore the notion completely while talking here like the Israelis are savage animals not worth mentioning. Not one word from you about how they fight everyday against the same people that want us removed from the face of the earth, none. Frightening from a fellow American.
Then you say they are so different from us and hold none of our values? What specifically are you referring to and why? I would visit Israel in a heartbeat feeling safe, comfortable and welcome and I am not even a Jew. You could not pay me to go to the West Bank or Gaza. That's not relevant to you?
Look, you and I both know that if there was not some underlying issue with you and the other anti-Israeli folks here you would be applauding them for fighting so hard both physically and politically against radical islam (I sure hope so, anyway). I am now certain you won't or can't for reasons that you will not discuss here. The extent you have gone to to find fault with these people is alarming and disappointing but indicative of how many people feel even after 9/11 sadly.
people who dissent about our policy toward Israel are always characterized as harboring evil, deep-seeded racist designs
Unfortunately, the same could be said for people on the other side of the fence as well. "You only support Israel because you hate Arabs/Muslims/etc."
First, the enemy of my worst enemy is my friend, psychoanalysis aside. While this country and many others have wisely used that philosophy to their advantage, you ignore the notion completely while talking here like the Israelis are savage animals not worth mentioning. Not one word from you about how they fight everyday against the same people that want us removed from the face of the earth, none. Frightening from a fellow American.
Why do they hate us? Instead of persisting in this "chicken or the egg" facet of our discussion, I recommend you read Imperial Hubris by Michael Scherer. He makes a very compelling and well researched case how our policies of the past 50 years incited the GWOT and are, along with political correctness, driving us to defeat. He also makes some excellent suggestions on how we can win this war - in part by redefining some of our relationships in the Middle East, including Israel. He can make the argument much better than I can.
Then you say they are so different from us and hold none of our values? What specifically are you referring to and why? I would visit Israel in a heartbeat feeling safe, comfortable and welcome and I am not even a Jew. You could not pay me to go to the West Bank or Gaza. That's not relevant to you?
I agree with you to the extent that we have more in common with the Israelis than the Palestinians, culturally speaking. But the foundation of America is liberty, tolerance and a government of servants, not rulers. The foundation of Israel is to build a national home for the world's Jews. Jewish people did not emigrate and fight a series of wars to build a national home for the world's hispanics, right? I don't think the Palestinians were ever part of the equation and now they are merely an obstacle.
Look, you and I both know that if there was not some underlying issue with you and the other anti-Israeli folks here you would be applauding them for fighting so hard both physically and politically against radical islam (I sure hope so, anyway). I am now certain you won't or can't for reasons that you will not discuss here. The extent you have gone to to find fault with these people is alarming and disappointing but indicative of how many people feel even after 9/11 sadly.
In terms of audacity and originality, there is much to admire about how the Israelis conduct some of their business. Unfortunately, just because someone is a particularly tough or proficient fighter does not impart justness to what he or she is fighting for. Good men can fight for a bad cause and vice versa.
You are also continuing to engage in racism-baiting, to whit that my arguments don't stand or fall based on whether they are factual or not or whether they are rational or not - but that these arguments are bad because I am a twisted, racist person and anything I have to say loses all its credibility. If you remove the racism card, Israel and her American political supporters give up a lot of their offensive firepower. Continue, if you wish - I am not reaching for my hanky. Just an observation.
People should find the facts, match that up with their values, make a decision and continue to march.
Gutshot John
03-04-08, 13:04
Could you be more specific?
I don't think I really need to be. You know exactly what you were saying and it was pretty obvious what I was saying.
If that's not sufficient oh well. Continue, but you're undermining your own position by inflammatory rhetoric and a decided bias in favor of one side.
How is that any different than the other pro-Israel responses?
Why do they hate us?
Dwelling on this question is your fundamental mistake. Pure misguided, self-hating liberalism and totally irrelevant after 9/11. I am 99% certain that I know what you are and where you are coming from, therefore furthering this discussion with you specifically can no longer be productive.
I simply find it discouraging that someone who knows history and writes as well as you would do so to express such an unjustified, resentful attitude to such a worthy ally at a time of war.
I don't think I really need to be. You know exactly what you were saying and it was pretty obvious what I was saying.
If that's not sufficient oh well. Continue, but you're undermining your own position by inflammatory rhetoric and a decided bias in favor of one side.
How is that any different than the other pro-Israel responses?
Our national policy toward Israel is biased. If we gave the muslims several billion dollars and sat idly by while they attacked Israel with our equipment my position would be the same, even if the people were different.
I am on America's side - not Israel's, not Palestine's. I support the things that further our national interests and I despise the things that weaken us and besmirch our honor.
Dwelling on this question is your fundamental mistake. Pure misguided, self-hating liberalism and totally irrelevant after 9/11. I am 99% certain that I know what you are and where you are coming from, therefore furthering this discussion with you specifically can no longer be productive.
I simply find it discouraging that someone who knows history and writes as well as you would do so to express such an unjustified, resentful attitude to such a worthy ally at a time of war.
I am far from liberal. Unlike liberals I know and have crossed swords with, I do not hate America and I don't think we "deserve" to lose this war or any war.
It isn't liberal to look at your actions and admit that you made a mistake. As the costs of that mistake continue to mount it gets more difficult to admit to a mistake - but that doesn't make the initial decision go away.
Admitting you are wrong and changing your policy is not what a liberal does - it's what a man does, or a nation of men.
Finally, 9/11 doesn't change right or wrong. It doesn't alter our country's heritage or history. Justice, decency, and morality are the same on 9/10 as they are on 9/12.
Nothing personal, safetyhit, and I appreciate the discussion.
Gutshot John
03-04-08, 14:09
Our national policy toward Israel is biased. If we gave the muslims several billion dollars and sat idly by while they attacked Israel with our equipment my position would be the same, even if the people were different.
I am on America's side - not Israel's, not Palestine's. I support the things that furhter our national interests and I despise the things that weaken us and besmirch our honor.
Again any nation is biased towards its allies and against those that are its perceived enemies. However what you're arguing is inconsistent, you're arguing that America should take an idealistic approach to the Palestinians while taking a realistic approach to Israel. My argument is that you take a realistic approach to both. Realism in international relations is a core value of conservatism that a state must first and foremost look after its own interests. You don't think that America's interests coincide with Israel's and there is an argument to be made for that, but you have to be consistent. Moreover there is also a very strong argument for maintaining ties with Israel. Especially to check the growing power of Iran which poses a direct threat to the supply of oil. Likewise the Osirak raid, means that we have a proxy that can act directly against Iran's nuclear facilities. Tactically and strategically Israel is more of an asset than a liability. The palestinians and most of the Arab world are a significant liability and irrelevant as an asset.
It is the fundamental nature of international relations. Believing in a fairy tale world where "sympathy and compassion" govern international affairs is a recipe for disaster and the the idealism implicit in such a foreign policy has been repeatedly discredited. Most notably in the guise of Wilsonian idealism. His Fourteen Points of light were misguided idealism that resulted in hundreds of ethnic and nationalist wars of the 20th and 21st century. In fact what we see today in the Middle East is a direct result of Wilson's misguided idealism. As a student of history, surely you realize the lethal consequences of uncontrolled "self-determination."
Given this the "moral superiority" of either side, and particularly the Palestinian side is entirely specious. The debate therefore is whether an alliance with Israel serves American interests. You dispute this notion, which is fine, but given the existence of avowed enemies, that have sworn ours and Israel's destruction, that your dispute is never going to be entirely convincing. Especially as long as they seek to destroy Israel and cow us into altering our foreign policy. To do so would only encourage further violence.
If the Arab-Palestinian world wants peace, than it has to accept Israel's existence. Until then, pro-Israel will always be the more moderate position.
Bulldog1967
03-04-08, 14:47
Our national policy toward Israel is biased. If we gave the muslims several billion dollars and sat idly by while they attacked Israel with our equipment my position would be the same, even if the people were different.
The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html)
U.S. gives $7billion in military aid to Pakistan. (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/110507M.shtml)
Again any nation is biased towards its allies and against those that are its perceived enemies. However what you're arguing is inconsistent, you're arguing that America should take an idealistic approach to the Palestinians while taking a realistic approach to Israel. My argument is that you take a realistic approach to both. Realism in international relations is a core value of conservatism that a state must first and foremost look after its own interests. You don't think that America's interests coincide with Israel's and there is an argument to be made for that, but you have to be consistent. Moreover there is also a very strong argument for maintaining ties with Israel. Especially to check the growing power of Iran which poses a direct threat to the supply of oil. Likewise the Osirak raid, means that we have a proxy that can act directly against Iran's nuclear facilities. Tactically and strategically Israel is more of an asset than a liability. The palestinians and most of the Arab world are a significant liability and irrelevant as an asset. .
You make an excellent argument. I am not necassarily saying we should abandon Israel, but that we should enforce something resembling a standard of accountability. If they comply, we help, if they don't - no more money, F-16's etc. I sincerely believe that Israelis know that we are wrapped so tight around their finger that halting aid is not even a possibility. That arrogance is one of my gripes. This is something we should challenge.
In fact what we see today in the Middle East is a direct result of Wilson's misguided idealism. As a student of history, surely you realize the lethal consequences of uncontrolled "self-determination."
While not an isolationist, I think these are the types of conflict we should steer clear of. I think there are instances like Darfur, where a very small amount of intervention can stop a large amount of suffering - but those situations are exceptional.
Given this the "moral superiority" of either side, and particularly the Palestinian side is entirely specious. The debate therefore is whether an alliance with Israel serves American interests. You dispute this notion, which is fine, but given the existence of avowed enemies, that have sworn ours and Israel's destruction, that your dispute is never going to be entirely convincing. Especially as long as they seek to destroy Israel and cow us into altering our foreign policy. To do so would only encourage further violence.
The animosity grows, whether from perception or reality, from our own foreign policy. We engaged in a policy that engenders hatred. To counterbalance this hatred, we are going to continue the policy that engendered it. That doesn't gel.
As I stated previously, we shouldn't change our policy because of terror, but because of our own standards. Scherer makes the argument that we should couple mideast policy reform with the liberal use of conventional forces against host nations - to show the terrorists that we are more willing than ever to use force against them. This carrot and stick approach is promising. If terrorists can no longer criticize us for propping up oppressive governments AND they know that they will get blitzed if they push the envelope, we will be closer to winning the GWOT than any other course of action I am aware of.
Students of history will point out that the Muslim mind is directly at odds with the west on many points and that conflict is inevitable. If we remove terrorism from the equation, it leaves a conventional threat. Muslims have only banded together effectively a few times in the last few thousand years. If anything a conventional war would be less of a possibility and more of a "lock" for us if it ever happened. In addition, pantywaist European governments must show their dissident Muslim populations that they must behave.
Islamic terror is reactive. Muslim wars of conquest are proactive. They are not the same thing.
Again any nation is biased towards its allies and against those that are its perceived enemies. However what you're arguing is inconsistent, you're arguing that America should take an idealistic approach to the Palestinians while taking a realistic approach to Israel. My argument is that you take a realistic approach to both. Realism in international relations is a core value of conservatism that a state must first and foremost look after its own interests. You don't think that America's interests coincide with Israel's and there is an argument to be made for that, but you have to be consistent. Moreover there is also a very strong argument for maintaining ties with Israel. Especially to check the growing power of Iran which poses a direct threat to the supply of oil. Likewise the Osirak raid, means that we have a proxy that can act directly against Iran's nuclear facilities. Tactically and strategically Israel is more of an asset than a liability. The palestinians and most of the Arab world are a significant liability and irrelevant as an asset.
It is the fundamental nature of international relations. Believing in a fairy tale world where "sympathy and compassion" govern international affairs is a recipe for disaster and the the idealism implicit in such a foreign policy has been repeatedly discredited. Most notably in the guise of Wilsonian idealism. His Fourteen Points of light were misguided idealism that resulted in hundreds of ethnic and nationalist wars of the 20th and 21st century. In fact what we see today in the Middle East is a direct result of Wilson's misguided idealism. As a student of history, surely you realize the lethal consequences of uncontrolled "self-determination."
Given this the "moral superiority" of either side, and particularly the Palestinian side is entirely specious. The debate therefore is whether an alliance with Israel serves American interests. You dispute this notion, which is fine, but given the existence of avowed enemies, that have sworn ours and Israel's destruction, that your dispute is never going to be entirely convincing. Especially as long as they seek to destroy Israel and cow us into altering our foreign policy. To do so would only encourage further violence.
If the Arab-Palestinian world wants peace, than it has to accept Israel's existence. Until then, pro-Israel will always be the more moderate position.
This is well stated. I also believe that after 9/11 the whole pro-Israel argument is sound to the extent that having to explain it at length to a knowledgeable adult is essentially the equivalent of telling a small child why they should not place their hand in a fire.
Hence the frustration.
The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html)
U.S. gives $7billion in military aid to Pakistan. (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/110507M.shtml)
The US gives money to Muslims too, point taken. But we started giving money to Egypt when they started playing ball with our policies (recognizing Israel, of all things).
The money to Pakistan is a recent development, although w/ the Soviet-Afghan war I am sure they have absorbed our funds in the past.
This doesn't close the gap on the Apaches, fighter jets, hordes of small arms in addition to the aforementioned cash.
Also, we are presumably getting something for our cash with Egypt and Pakistan, while all we get for our investment with Israel is happy Israelis. The investment and the policy are a "self-licking ice cream cone". I will add a positive nod to Israel in that the billions we give them are not vanishing into graft and misappropriation.
Gutshot John
03-04-08, 15:25
The US gives money to Muslims too, point taken. But we started giving money to Egypt when they started playing ball with our policies (recognizing Israel, of all things).
Actually the United States backed Egypt against Israel in the 1956 Suez War. Moreover Egypt in the 1960s was a Soviet client state. They started playing ball when they realized the error of this choice.
The money to Pakistan is a recent development, although w/ the Soviet-Afghan war I am sure they have absorbed our funds in the past.
True to a point but I think the original figure may be incorrect. $7B seems exceptionally high. We do however give FAR more in military aid to Arab nations than we do to Israel. Iraq and Afghanistan (the latter not Arab) receive more military money each than does Israel. Add aid packages to Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia and it is significantly more than we give to Israel. Historically Israel has received more aid than any other nation since the Marshall plan, however in terms of actual dollars, this has shifted in favor of the muslim nations. Again this is relatively recent, but in a post 9/11 world it seems counter-intuitive that we're giving significantly more to Arab nations than to Israel. It also undermines a claim of bias in favor of Israel.
Even still, who cares if we give money to people that "play ball" with our policies. Why would you give money to someone who bites your hand as you feed it?
This doesn't close the gap on the Apaches, fighter jets, hordes of small arms in addition to the aforementioned cash.
I'm not sure why we have to close the gap. Again we favor our allies. So what? By having a proxy military force with the demonstrated capability and willingness to act in our interest even as it acts in hers, it only makes sense. One way or the other the aid to muslim states has increased far more since 9/11 than it had before then.
Also, we are presumably getting something for our cash with Egypt and Pakistan, while all we get for our investment with Israel is happy Israelis. The investment and the policy are a "self-licking ice cream cone".
Again the strategic and tactical advantages we've gotten "for our investment" are fairly significant and obvious.
The Palestinians and Arabs would do well to recognize that reality.
Actually the United States backed Egypt against Israel in the 1956 Suez War. Moreover Egypt in the 1960s was a Soviet client state. They started playing ball when they realized the error of this choice.
Your knowledge exceeds mine, so I will concede this point.
Historically Israel has received more aid than any other nation since the Marshall plan, however in terms of actual dollars, this has shifted in favor of the muslim nations.
This is news to me. I was aware that we had greatly increased our aid to certain muslim countries, but not that it exceeded the budget we devote to Israel. Point taken. As you state, this is a recent development and I maintain my arguments on the ethnic, religious and social dynamics that drive our relationship w/ Israel as being detrimental to our credibility.
Again this is relatively recent, but in a post 9/11 world it seems counter-intuitive that we're giving significantly more to Arab nations than to Israel. It also undermines a claim of bias in favor of Israel.
As in the Soviet-Afghan war, giving money and weapons to muslims can have long range consequences that our leaders don't think or care about or are willing to accept a certain level of risk. That said, I don't think it is counter-intuitive to give them resources because, if we are going to work with them and tap whatever passes as intelligence from them, we aren't going to get it for free.
Even still, who cares if we give money to people that "play ball" with our policies. Why would you give money to someone who bites your hand as you feed it?.
That is not a bad idea if it is indeed "our" policy, not Israel's. And I think there is an undue influence - assisted in large part by complex social issues already addressed, the unsympathetic backwardness of the Palestinians and the lack of any meaningful national dialogue that transcends the level of "supporters of Israel vs nazis".
I maintain my arguments on the ethnic, religious and social dynamics that drive our relationship w/ Israel as being detrimental to our credibility.
You are obviously an intelligent person but I fail to see how backing Israel against governments that would like to kill us detrimental to our credibility.
I know it's a lot of stuff, but if you back through my posts, I have attempted to make that point a few different times. If you have already done this, or do it and remain unsatisfied, I will take another swing at it.
Gutshot John
03-05-08, 13:27
That is not a bad idea if it is indeed "our" policy, not Israel's. And I think there is an undue influence - assisted in large part by complex social issues already addressed, the unsympathetic backwardness of the Palestinians and the lack of any meaningful national dialogue that transcends the level of "supporters of Israel vs nazis".
I agree that argument is pointless, not to mention a false choice. There is much valid criticism of Israel to be offered without being accused of being a nazi.
Israel has a fundamental choice to make. If it holds the West Bank, it must incorporate a Palestinian majority. If they give this majority a vote, the Jewish state ceases to exist. If they don't, they must establish a de facto apartheid system (this does not exist yet no matter what that peanut farmer from Georgia says) and no longer be considered a democracy. Either way it means the end of Israel as a free Jewish state.
The only viable, democratic option is to withdraw from the occupied territories. To do this however requires a good-faith desire for peace on the part of the Palestinians.
Until then we are caught between Scylla and Charibdys.
Gutshot John
03-05-08, 13:28
That is not a bad idea if it is indeed "our" policy, not Israel's. And I think there is an undue influence - assisted in large part by complex social issues already addressed, the unsympathetic backwardness of the Palestinians and the lack of any meaningful national dialogue that transcends the level of "supporters of Israel vs nazis".
I agree that argument is pointless, not to mention a false choice. There is much valid criticism of Israel to be offered without being accused of being a nazi.
Israel has a fundamental choice to make. If it holds the West Bank, it must incorporate a Palestinian majority. If they give this majority a vote, the Jewish state ceases to exist. If they don't, they must establish a de facto apartheid system (this does not exist yet no matter what that peanut farmer from Georgia says) and no longer be considered a democracy. Either way it means the end of Israel as a free Jewish state. Israeli pols have figured this out, extremist jewish settlers however cannot see the forest for the trees.
The only viable, democratic option is to withdraw. To do this however requires a desire for peace on the part of the Palestinians. On both sides extremists threaten any framework.
Until then the Israelis are caught between Scylla and Charibdys.
P.S. Didn't mean to add a new post, just edit the old...if a kind mod comes through kindly delete the first post.
Gutshot John
03-05-08, 13:54
Iraq and Afghanistan are probably the only countries that individually exceed Israel's aid. Egypt and Jordan however run very close second and third to Israel (since 1960 Israel has received $48b, Egypt has received about $42b). Together these two former enemies of Israel, easily get more aid. This doesn't even include the massive military aid packages we've given to Saudi Arabia.
if the israel question is so significant to the federal government, then why do they send even a dime to israels enemies? At the same time, the issue of not having a true palestinian state is an issue that the "arab neighbors" seem to do a good job of exploiting. The jordanians could have easily handed over that small chunk of land known as trans-jordan so that their arab brothers could settle, but they wont. Arafat was given this 49% land offer and refused it, he let the olive branch fall from his hand. But, the arabs wont care if every last zionist is gone, they will find another to blame for whatever their new problem is. Israel is roughly the size of Jersey and equally worthless in size and scope. Do I think that Congressman Paul is right? Yes, why fund Israel and speak of peace when you hand billions to Pakistan, Egypt, etc?
If Israel never existed, and oil was never discovered, would anyone give a rusty rat's about the Middle East? Heck no. If Israel magically vanished tomorrow, it wouldn't be 48 hours before they started fighting each other for some stupid reason. The contentious policies being debated unite all manner of muslims from all manner of nationalities.
The answer to your question is that if you want to schmooze tinpots like Musharraf and Mubarak, you have to give them stuff. They are not going to incur the wrath of their own Islamist fanatics because they love America and are devoted to democracy. And Musharraf has risen to the challenge and given himself and his secret police a facelift. As long as the money keeps rolling, he'll tell us they'll have a gay pride march, or put all the women in college or pretty much whatever we want to hear.
The more I look at issues like that, the more I think we should use more conventional forces. We have a pretty good idea where Bin Laden is, but we sit around and play patty-cake because we don't want a Pak civil war or nuke exchange with India. Musharraf is part of a proud tradition of using brutal , barely competent, proxie dictators to do our dirty work. If our name is attached to it, our hands need to be directly on the controls. We pay the Paks to let bin laden escape and butt stroke a few peasants while they're at it, all on our dime.
I agree that argument is pointless, not to mention a false choice. There is much valid criticism of Israel to be offered without being accused of being a nazi.
Israel has a fundamental choice to make. If it holds the West Bank, it must incorporate a Palestinian majority. If they give this majority a vote, the Jewish state ceases to exist. If they don't, they must establish a de facto apartheid system (this does not exist yet no matter what that peanut farmer from Georgia says) and no longer be considered a democracy. Either way it means the end of Israel as a free Jewish state. Israeli pols have figured this out, extremist jewish settlers however cannot see the forest for the trees.
The only viable, democratic option is to withdraw. To do this however requires a desire for peace on the part of the Palestinians. On both sides extremists threaten any framework.
Until then the Israelis are caught between Scylla and Charibdys.
P.S. Didn't mean to add a new post, just edit the old...if a kind mod comes through kindly delete the first post.
I agree. And I don't envy the situation they are in. It's a catch 22. Even if Israel swung to the hard, hard right and tried an all out purge, unless you wipe out every last one you've failed. As long as one scrawny Palestinian kid is alive in wreckage, the grudge and therefore the fight will continue. If we can learn anything from the Israelis, it is that violence - however skillfully executed - will not fundamentally solve this type of conflict. It beats getting rolled over, but that's about it.
On the other hand, the lefties in Israel are hampered by the stupidity and corruption of the very people they are trying to proactively live with. With each bombing and rocket attack, the Palestinans reduce their options and basically validate Israel's harsh responses.
One of the covert operations enacted by the South African govt was the so-called "Third Force". You covertly fund, arm and train the Zulus to fight the ANC. Then, when gun battles erupt, you tell the world that this why apartheid is necessary - because the natives can't behave themselves. The Palestinians are basically their own "Third Force". They could not screw the political and global pooch any harder - for 50 years - if they had studied to do it.
All this over analysis is now becoming nauseating, folks. The intellectual sparring has clouded what should be a big, clear picture. Since I started this, maybe I can try to simplify things a bit.
Israel: Friendly and accepting to Americans.
Palestinians and most muslims: Want Americans dead or converted.
Israel: Recent/current victims of terror attacks.
Palestinians and most muslims: Perpetrators of recent/current terror attacks.
Israel: Not perfect, but good overall.
Palestinians and most muslims: Far from perfect, highly oppressive and needlessly violent.
Israel: Only kills civilians when targeting terrorists.
Palestinians and most muslims: Deliberately kill civilians in mass to generate fear.
Israel: Will continue to fight diligently with us in the war on terror.
Palestinians and most muslims: Will continue to try to find ways to exterminate Jews and destroy the evil American infidel empire.
Israel: Has nuclear weapons and would use them to protect us.
Palestinians and most muslims: Want nuclear weapons so they can use them to kill us.
This is not complicated. In depth history lessons are neither required or relevant after 9/11 to justify our support of Israel. The minor imperfections you can legitimately find with them are far outweighed by the good they do and the common worldwide threat we both face. Save the nit-picking for after the war for god's sake.
Gutshot John
03-05-08, 19:05
This is not complicated.
If only that were true, this would have been put to bed a long time ago.
I agree that Israel is worth supporting, but she should be open to fair criticism and self-examination as are we all.
I know it's a lot of stuff, but if you back through my posts, I have attempted to make that point a few different times. If you have already done this, or do it and remain unsatisfied, I will take another swing at it.
That won't be necessary you have reiterated your incessant babble sufficiently.
I am not going to stop feeling the way I do and you are not going stop saying the words you are saying. Further dialogue between us is pointless.
I do hope one day you will be able to see past the blindness of your indoctrination.
If only that were true, this would have been put to bed a long time ago.
Then I will re-phrase.
After September 11th, this should only be complicated to those that are either looking to find fault, those that are trying to think too hard, or those that are looking to show how well they can debate a topic that is not really debatable any longer.
Gutshot John
03-05-08, 21:22
Then I will re-phrase.
After September 11th, this should only be complicated to those that are either looking to find fault, those that are trying to think too hard, or those that are looking to show how well they can debate a topic that is not really debatable any longer.
I see well I guess that settles it. For the record which group am I? Because honestly I don't see either.
I see well I guess that settles it. For the record which group am I? Because honestly I don't see either.
You would seem not to have an issue with us being allies with Israel, so that is that. I just hate to see someone like Striker5 coerce either you or I or anyone into debating so extensively when the reality is obvious to most for all the right reasons. I will admit he had me thinking he could be reasoned with at first, but it was apparent where he was coming from after not too long. Fruitless.
I will say this, though. I saw an in depth, highly detailed analysis of where some of the anti-Israelis are coming from. Striker5 does give us that "privilege", though I take offense as an American to his view and disagree on the majority of his so-called logistics. But I suppose his knowledge of history exposes the handicapped leg these people stand on.
That won't be necessary you have reiterated your incessant babble sufficiently.
I am not going to stop feeling the way I do and you are not going stop saying the words you are saying. Further dialogue between us is pointless.
I do hope one day you will be able to see past the blindness of your indoctrination.
You realize that you asked me to clarify a point and the post you quoted was my attempt to avoid further incessant babble, don't you?
My views are a result of my knowledge of history, human nature and some very good books, written by very knowledgeable people. But since it doesn't jibe w/ your opinions, I have been "indoctrinated". You are making a number of assumptions, to put it mildly. I used to be an unquestioning supporter of our foreign policies - I learned some things and changed my mind. Not everyone will agree, no problem.
I don't recall coercing anyone to read any of my posts - if you don't want to talk, feel free to drive on.
You would seem not to have an issue with us being allies with Israel, so that is that. I just hate to see someone like Striker5 coerce either you or I or anyone into debating so extensively when the reality is obvious to most for all the right reasons.
"Coerce"?
I will say this, though. I saw an in depth, highly detailed analysis of where some of the anti-Israelis are coming from. Striker5 does give us that "privilege", though I take offense as an American to his view and disagree on the majority of his so-called logistics. But I suppose his knowledge of history exposes the handicapped leg these people stand on.
J. did indeed smoke me on some of my history - and I conceded each time.
You and I have done the majority of the talking on this thread. You have made personal accusations of antisemitism, terrorist sympathizing, and desiring another holocaust. You are apparently incapable of keeping this professional, not personal. This IS the internet, I suppose.
Fortunately for you (and Israel) spluttering outrage, out of control emotions, and accusations of racism have effectively won the battle for this part of our foreign policy, for decades. Once you stray from this strategy, you are in trouble. I hope that will change and America's interests, not Israel's, will be what drives what we attach our name and resources to.
In anticipation of this being locked - J., you actually taught me a few things and I will reasses accordingly. Thanks,
Striker5
...I will reasses accordingly.
You do that. :)
Unfortunately it's badly needed. This time try not to think so hard while doing so, there are better places to spend all that mental energy. We are at war with radical islam, and therefore you can and should finally stop blaming and hating America and acknowledge the obvious.
As far as your references to me and my "accusations", perhaps I can be a little more blunt here than most. While this is a very sensitive issue, I can assure you that emotions play no role whatsoever in my analysis of you, sir. I can the see big picture clearly, my view is not blurred. And I see you being driven to disparage a very worthy ally at a time of war for what are now trivial reasons at their strongest. Therefore, since I can find no rational reason for such a misguided effort at such an unlikely time, I drew the stated conclusions. The only other possibility that I can think of is that you are just thinking far too hard about all this.
Finally, my humble analogy of your stance on Americas relationship with Israel would be the following:
You are behaving and thinking like a drill Sargent walking around the barracks with the white glove looking for a spec of dust to bitch about. However, in the meantime, your unit is out in front of the barracks holding off a surprise attack. But you won't grab a weapon and run outside to help, you just keep walking around diligently trying to get some dust on that glove. Almost pure insanity.
All that said, I will return the thanks you extended earlier for allowing us to continue this heavy, but still worthy discussion. I don't know if you are a bad man, Striker5. But regardless, after watching people jump from the upper floors of the World Trade Centers because of radical islam, I am inclined to be firm and blunt with you or anyone else who take the liberal road and blame us for the increase in terrorism or bash a worthy, honorable ally.
the1911fan
03-06-08, 17:43
Unfortunately some garbage that needed taking out was'nt and this happened
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080306/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians;_ylt=At9wfkbS9UO9KRsxv2evKEOaK8MA
variablebinary
03-06-08, 18:25
Bottom line, Israel has a right to defend itself.
Israel is a reactionary nation 95% of the time. They must be attacked first before they use force in return.
There will be no peace in the Middle East due to concessions on Israel's part. Zero. None. Even if every Jew vanished into thin air, the Arabs would just bomb each other.
There is only one way to get peace, and that is for Arabs to just stop, Period.
Bottom line, Israel has a right to defend itself.
Israel is a reactionary nation 95% of the time. They must be attacked first before they use force in return.
There will be no peace in the Middle East due to concessions on Israel's part. Zero. None. Even if every Jew vanished into thin air, the Arabs would just bomb each other.
Every word is true, in fact I don't think they are even 5% pro-active. That's one good reason why the other side of the argument comes up so lame.
I see there were thousands in the streets today cheering after the seminary killings. The undisputed question now is when do we cripple radical islam once and for all. And if muslims will wreak havoc after they are offended by cartoons, then they could surely do the same after even their own are killed in senseless terror attacks doing harmless things such as shopping and attending funerals. Yet they never do, ever. Therefore anyone could consider this a group effort.
Bulldog1967
03-06-08, 21:19
"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."
- Golda Meir
I think we should stop funding them. They're their own country, they can deal with their own problems. I don't buy the whole destabilization thing if they were over run, the Arabs hate the Jews and they hate us for supporting them. If we stopped supporting them, perhaps they'd stop hating on us. Now, the radicals will probably hate anyone that uses toilet paper but besides them, I'd say the rest of the Muslims would be fine with us.
Why are we funding a zionist nation? Frankly, I'm sick of all the fighting over some god-damned land (ironic, huh?) flatten the ****ing shrines and be done with it.
I think we should stop funding them. They're their own country, they can deal with their own problems.
It's called supporting an ally at a time of war. I think they would do it for us.
Why are we funding a zionist nation? Frankly, I'm sick of all the fighting over some god-damned land (ironic, huh?) flatten the ****ing shrines and be done with it.
Yes, let's destroy irreplaceable historical treasures that are thousands of years old to satisfy a bunch of maniacs. Just brilliant. :rolleyes:
I say make it so they are no longer a threat to us or our children in this nuclear age, period. After the Jews were gone (which would be a ****ing atrocity by the way), they would put us in our sights even more than we are now. Since the "moderates" do nothing to curb the activity of the radicals, this is a fight that is not likely to go away after Israel is gone anyway. So, why would anyone want to do something that would surely come back to haunt us in a variety of ways? That line of thought is black-hearted and short-sighted.
Israel is a reactionary nation 95% of the time.
The problem with that statement is that it is only taking into account history from the 1950's and on. Israel is reacting to the violent behavior of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are themselves reacting to their disenfranchisement and subjugation by people arriving from eastern Europe, America, etc.
The prevailing attitude about that point is, and has been, "Oh well. Who cares?"
Jews have been living in Palestine, more or less peacefully with their Arab neighbors, for almost two thousand years. The rise of Zionism around the turn of the century and British waffling and bumbling laid the groundwork for what we have today.
The Palestinians did not invite more Jews to come visit, and then got pissed off.
Jews, as part of a multi-national ethnic movement, emigrated to Palestine. That is how the ball got rolling.
Gutshot John
03-07-08, 14:34
The problem with that statement is that it is only taking into account history from the 1950's and on. Israel is reacting to the violent behavior of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are themselves reacting to their disenfranchisement and subjugation by people arriving from eastern Europe, America, etc.
The problem with the historical argument is that if you keep going back, then the Arabs took Jerusalem and Israel by conquest, disenfranchisement and subjugation.
The prevailing attitude about that point is, and has been, "Oh well. Who cares?"
I disagree.
Jews have been living in Palestine, more or less peacefully with their Arab neighbors, for almost two thousand years. The rise of Zionism around the turn of the century and British waffling and bumbling laid the groundwork for what we have today.
That's a huge oversimplification.
The Palestinians did not invite more Jews to come visit, and then got pissed off.
Jews, as part of a multi-national ethnic movement, emigrated to Palestine. That is how the ball got rolling.
An "invitation" is irrelevant.
Jerusalem and what is now Israel is undeniably the Jewish ethnic homeland. The historic documentation of this that exists is incontrovertible.
The reason it wasn't their political homeland for the better part of 2000 years, is the same conquest and violence that you now decry.
I think we should stop funding them. They're their own country, they can deal with their own problems. I don't buy the whole destabilization thing if they were over run, the Arabs hate the Jews and they hate us for supporting them. If we stopped supporting them, perhaps they'd stop hating on us. Now, the radicals will probably hate anyone that uses toilet paper but besides them, I'd say the rest of the Muslims would be fine with us.
Why are we funding a zionist nation? Frankly, I'm sick of all the fighting over some god-damned land (ironic, huh?) flatten the ****ing shrines and be done with it.
Most uneducated post ever.:confused:
My alarm went off at the mention of Zionist.
Submariner
03-07-08, 15:30
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii101/Yotehammer/Jewjitsu.jpg
:rolleyes:
If we stopped supporting them, perhaps they'd stop hating on us. Now, the radicals will probably hate anyone that uses toilet paper but besides them, I'd say the rest of the Muslims would be fine with us.
You think so?
You have 1,400 years of history to bone up on before you should come to such a conclusion.
At least go back to WWII, and look up the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and see who's side he was on.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii101/Yotehammer/Jewjitsu.jpg
:rolleyes:
Yes, :rolleyes: .
This is the equivalent of taking a photo of a flamboyant homo at a carnival in San Francisco and saying it represents a potential American soldier. Worthless in the representative sense you are trying to use it in.
Keep trying, but harder this time.
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