View Full Version : NY's Gun Community Has Gone Insane (Help Define The Actual Laws)
Hey Guys,
Please if you are a lawyer in our state, or an LEO with actual knowledge of our gun laws it would be awesome if you chimed in, as I am a bit confused a little upset at the moment regarding the culture that seems to be infiltrating the NY state firearms community.
Before I bought an AR in NY I researched the AWB and I have always made sure I am operating within the letter of the law. I have a terminal degree, I was honors student, and I understand how to interpret and read laws, so I was a bit shocked when I started hearing this new interpretation of our law pop up over the past weeks:
"It is illegal to put a pre ban magazine in a post ban gun".
There is 0 mention of this in our AWB, but I have heard this interpretation at three different locations in the last two weeks and I'm a bit concerned about where it is coming from.
I was sold a post ban AK from a registered FFL with a pre ban magazine included in the sale, so now I'm reluctant to take any of my rifles shooting as I only own pre ban magazines for the AK and one ten round for the AR. I could see getting swept up in this climate and having the law simply change without any actual notice.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
xrayoneone
01-12-13, 22:54
FWIW California's AWB is such you can have preban standard cap magazines but if you put them in a post ban rifles you' ve manufactured an assault rifle. Felony.
I wouldn't be surprised if our guvna Moonbeam and your guvna Ichabod Crane got on the same page regarding that.
mikelowrey
01-13-13, 02:00
Anything Previous 1994 Ban can be used in a Post ban AR. SO more easy to understand:
Do you have a magazines manufactured and bought before 1994?
If yes, it can be used on your post ban AR.
Anything related and manufactured after 1994 will be not compliant. Only LEO's are exempt of the current law in NY.
If you have a AR manufactured after 1994, just make sure it doesn't have the "evil' features in the current law NYS PL 265.00
thats crazy, I would have never thought it would be illegal to put a pre ban magazine in a post ban gun. Just wouldn't have occurred to me.
mikelowrey
01-13-13, 02:09
thats crazy, I would have never thought it would be illegal to put a pre ban magazine in a post ban gun. Just wouldn't have occurred to me.
Is legal.
If you want to hear stupid ask NYS gun owners about pinning stocks. If that isn't enough ask this "if I buy a magazine with no date on it how do I know if it's pre-ban or not?" "Can I use it if it doesn't have a date on it?"
I have a pre-ban rifle with bayonet lug, flash hider, and adjustable stock. The only people who ever gave me any shit about it were jackasses at the range. I have had cops shooting next to me at the range when I adjusted the stock for my Daughter. I've had cops look at it after being pulled over and not a word about it being non-compliant. It is because it's pre-ban but still they didn't even ask.
I am 100% sure you can put a preban high cap mag in a post ban gun.
Another fallacy is that your detachable mags have be unloaded when in your car.
When I was a Police Officer NYPD, I used to read Legal Bulletins that confirmed my above statements.
I am 100% sure you can put a preban high cap mag in a post ban gun.
Another fallacy is that your detachable mags have be unloaded when in your car.
When I was a Police Officer NYPD, I used to read Legal Bulletins that confirmed my above statements.
Of course it's legal. In NY. if it's more than ten rounds there's pre-ban and illegal. It doesn't matter if you have it in your pocket, in a legal pre-ban or a post-ban rifle.
Of course it's legal. In NY. if it's more than ten rounds there's pre-ban and illegal. It doesn't matter if you have it in your pocket, in a legal pre-ban or a post-ban rifle.
I don't understand your post, can you please clarify.
I don't understand your post, can you please clarify.
Sorry about that. What I mean is the rifle you have has no bearing on the legality of the magazine. In NYS. all magazines that can accept more than ten rounds produced after 1994 are illegal to possess. That being said of course you can use pre-ban mags in post-ban rifles.
Sorry about that. What I mean is the rifle you have has no bearing on the legality of the magazine. In NYS. all magazines that can accept more than ten rounds produced after 1994 are illegal to possess. That being said of course you can use pre-ban mags in post-ban rifles.
I haven't kept up with this thread, so sorry if this is redundant, but the new proposed NYS AWB mandates that mags will not be grandfathered AFAIK, correct?
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-13-13, 09:02
If you want to hear stupid ask NYS gun owners about pinning stocks. If that isn't enough ask this "if I buy a magazine with no date on it how do I know if it's pre-ban or not?" "Can I use it if it doesn't have a date on it?"
I have a pre-ban rifle with bayonet lug, flash hider, and adjustable stock. The only people who ever gave me any shit about it were jackasses at the range. I have had cops shooting next to me at the range when I adjusted the stock for my Daughter. I've had cops look at it after being pulled over and not a word about it being non-compliant. It is because it's pre-ban but still they didn't even ask.
I here what your saying, it's kind of funny. Try and remember you most likely know more about gun laws than the average LE you meet at the range or in a traffic stop. That's why its so important to be responsible, it's easy for the uneducated officer to get caught up in all this hype of "assault rifles"and they cannot take your word for it. Most police officers are not "gun guys/girls" therefor it helps to keep a copy in your range bad so if you have an issue it can be used as a training situation. Most LE in New York are not even aware there is a mag restriction or that they are exempt from it. Some simply refuse to be a hypocrite.
I am the guy most people ask, I get calls from my wife, or bud's at work all the time. They just need clarification on stuff (god bless the camera phone). The DA office in Ontario county has instructed the local police department not to bring any cases before it pertaining to magazine restrictions.
I am 100% sure you can put a preban high cap mag in a post ban gun.
Another fallacy is that your detachable mags have be unloaded when in your car.
When I was a Police Officer NYPD, I used to read Legal Bulletins that confirmed my above statements.
no kidding, I had no idea you could keep your mags loaded in say your trunk when driving to the range in NY.
Don;t you guys have the Code of NY online? I thought all localities and States had their code online. Why not just look up the actual code and post it. It's usually very specific.
This was all based off of the actual code, which I have read and re-read multiple times. Thus the reason for posting this. I had never heard such a random interpretation of the law so I figured I would go to the source of some of the most knowledgable people out there about this issue.
Everything stated here is how the law reads and how I always interpreted it.
no kidding, I had no idea you could keep your mags loaded in say your trunk when driving to the range in NY.
You can keep them on your front seat, with your unloaded Underfolder,uncased, beside them.
The DA office in Ontario county has instructed the local police department not to bring any cases before it pertaining to magazine restrictions.
I live in Ontario County. In fact, my mother knows DA Tantillo well. Where did you hear this?
Stretz Tactical Inc
01-14-13, 08:10
I am a Police Officer in NY. Where a lot of this confusion comes from, is the fact that the pre-ban exemption, is written in the definitions section of section 265.00 of the NYS Penal, specifically - 265.00 22(v) for the firearms themselves & 265.00 23 for magazines. This is listed before the actual section outlining the crime. So, if you think it's an illegal gun/mag & dont read the definition, a bad arrest/seizure can happen. Also other exemptions for example - military personel, is listed after the section outlining the crime. I saw a cop take a US Army issued 30 round magazine from a reservist - in lieu of arresting him. When I heard about it an asked him why? He said "you cant have that!" Really? When was it manufactured? - he just looked at me & I had too explain the pre-ban exemption. I also stated that he illegally seized it either way - it was US Army issue - we know because they soldier said it was, showed ID & said it was his "favorite magazine" in Iraq.
As far as a loaded long gun in the car - that is a misdemeanor in the NYS enviromental conservation law (they don't want you shooting deer or whatever, from your car) I don't have that law in front of me, but I don't believe seperating your loaded magazine to a different place in the car is an exemption. Like the charge of criminal possesion of a weapon in regards to a pistol. Unloaded pistol (no permit, etc), no ammo on your person - misdemeanor. Loaded pistol OR unloaded pistol (again no permit, etc) in your holster, loaded magazine in your pocket - Felony. The ammo with an unloaded illegally possesed pistol, is considered "constructively loaded" - in other words, you can load the magazine right in to the pistol, chamber and fire it. Does that apply to the enviromental conservation law? I think so, but I am not sure. Check with a lawyer or load your mags at the range.
My suggestion - get a copy of the NYS Penal law (looseleaf law dot com) find and highlight the exemptions & carry them with you for your trips to the range. Thats what I did for my nephew. There are cops out there that don't know/care. Safer to have the law with you & prevent a headache.
If you read NYS Penal law a firearm is a pistol. Shotguns and rifles are defined separately. The loaded mag and a unloaded pistol are constructive possession of a loaded firearm, but this does not apply to rifles and shotguns.
If you read NYS Penal law a firearm is a pistol. Shotguns and rifles are defined separately. The loaded mag and a unloaded pistol are constructive possession of a loaded firearm, but this does not apply to rifles and shotguns.
Yup, technically your right. Federal law however defines a firearm quite differently Federally a firearm is anything that fires a projectile. From a drinking straw, if it has in fact fired a spitball , up to a cannon which are still legal to own and fire.
or Article 265 NYS penal law can be searched: under definitions it says:
3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having
one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle
having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d)
any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e)
an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the
barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the
distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or
breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the
overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance
between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to
the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique
firearm.
Stretz Tactical Inc
01-14-13, 10:56
If you read NYS Penal law a firearm is a pistol. Shotguns and rifles are defined separately. The loaded mag and a unloaded pistol are constructive possession of a loaded firearm, but this does not apply to rifles and shotguns.
WRONG!
NYS Penal Law section 265.00 definitions
3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having
one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle
having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d)
any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e)
an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the
barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the
distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or
breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the
overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance
between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to
the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique
firearm.
NYS ECL 11-093 sub 2:
2. No firearm except a pistol or revolver shall be carried or
possessed in or on a motor vehicle unless it is unloaded in both the
chamber and the magazine, except that a loaded firearm which may be
legally used for taking migratory game birds may be carried or possessed
in a motorboat while being legally used in hunting migratory game birds,
and no person except a law enforcement officer in the performance of his
official duties shall, while in or on a motor vehicle, use a jacklight,
spotlight or other artificial light upon lands inhabited by deer if he
is in possession or is accompanied by a person who is in possession, at
the time of such use, of a longbow, crossbow or a firearm of any kind
except a pistol or revolver, unless such longbow is unstrung or such
firearm is taken down or securely fastened in a case or locked in the
trunk of the vehicle. For purposes of this subdivision, motor vehicle
shall mean every vehicle or other device operated by any power other
than muscle power, and which shall include but not be limited to
automobiles, trucks, motorcycles, tractors, trailers and motorboats,
snowmobiles and snowtravelers, whether operated on or off public
highways. Notwithstanding the provisions of this subdivision, the
department may issue a permit to any person who is non-ambulatory,
except with the use of a mechanized aid, to possess a loaded firearm in
or on a motor vehicle as defined in this section, subject to such
restrictions as the department may deem necessary in the interest of
public safety. Nothing in this section permits the possession of a
pistol or a revolver contrary to the penal law.
Look at the barrel lengths. Can't you read and comprehend. We are taking about legal shotguns and rifles in NYS not NFA items.
Also NYS ECL, they are taking about unloaded chamber and magazines in long guns with non removable fixed magazines, not detachable mags. If you are Police Officer you better read some legal bulletins or get you ignorant ass another job. You are the problem with NY Law Enforcement you don't understand the law you are enforceing.
Let me teach you something rookie, call the NYS Attorney Generals Office for clarification.
Also do us all a favor and get a job collecting tolls on the Thruway where you can do the least damage to the rest of us.
COP FIGHT!!!!! COP FIGHT!!!! :lol:
Relax it's a ****ing internet conversation.
COP FIGHT!!!!! COP FIGHT!!!! :lol:
Relax it's a ****ing internet conversation.
Sometimes I can be a Instant Asshole,
Just add alcohol.
Stretz Tactical Inc
01-14-13, 11:53
"If you read NYS Penal law a firearm is a pistol. " - you wrote that. I responded with the actually law. YOU defined a firearm as a pistol. The law goes further. If you can read, you can see that.
Rookie? ya, I geuss, only have 16 years.
ASSuming what YOU think the ECL says & even if you call the Attorney general, the WRITTEN law does not define detachable/fixed magazine. Therefore, a magazine is a magazine to anyone who reads it. That doesn't mean there isn't case law or an attorney general or Encon Police ruling on it. What that does mean, is the average cop, is going to go with what is in black & white. If your "ignorant ass" wants to set people up for failure, thats on you & them for listening. I have already described one instance where a cop confiscated (and would have arrested - if the guy wasn't a vet) a 30 round magazine that he was not legally allowed too.
Thats great that you did 20 years in the city. I started there. I have also worked elsewhere and with a range of people from multiple agencies. Not all cops are gun people and laws get interpreted different ways by different people - right or wrong. If someone wants to listen too you and they get pinched, maybe you can bail them out, pay any fines they recieve & buy them a new gun when they don't the conficated one back. Not looking to argue with anyone - cop or not. I am telling from experience what cops do - in or out of NYC.
Just want to throw it out there guys but the specifics of the bill have been released and it sounds like there is no opposition in the Legislature.
They include:
7 round restriction on all mags (no mention of grandfather clauses)
Expanded Assault Weapon Ban adding an additional "feature" to make guns illegal.
and the kicker:
Forced registration of ALL semiautomatic rifles with the State Police and release only after a background check on the owner.
NY TImes (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/nyregion/new-york-legislators-hope-for-speedy-vote-on-gun-laws.html?hp&_r=0)
Forced registration of ALL semiautomatic rifles with the State Police and release only after a background check on the owner.
Yep, I'll be complying with that . . . .
:rolleyes:
It's called the right to privacy. It's none of governments damn business what I keep in my home.
I can't wait until 2015 when my fiancé and I can move. It's not just the government here, it's the general public too. They're total assholes. They're pushy, selfish, ignorant, arrogant, elitist, impatient and superficial. **** this state.
I'm a lurker so I don't have enough posts to put this in General Discussion where it might get more views, but anyway I found this on Facebook regarding last night's legislative atrocity:
"NY LAWYER Filing Challenge to BAN-PETITION SIGNEES NEEDED
Lawyer : Jim Tresmond, Attorney in Buffalo, New York. Attorney phone is 716.202.4301
Successfully represented clients in the past on Second Amendment issues in NYS Supreme Court. This case is pro-bono for all the gun owners of New York.
According to Mr. Tresmond the new ban is illegal as it is an ex-facto law taking away previously owned property and he intends to file this action in Federal Court.
We are looking for as many as possible to add to CLASS ACTION CASE:
SEND Your Name and EMAIL ADDRESS, Address and phone number to:
psacco1@twcny.rr.com
WE ARE COLLECTING AS MANY AS POSSIBLE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE!!!"
I question whether this is real or not so obviously, you'll want to do some SERIOUS checking in to both the legitimacy of the claims being made here and the attorney himself...because again, this is off Facebook. But IF it is legit, who knows, perhaps it could be of some use.
Take care NY guys, and now back to my hollow tree......
I bet the police will be overwhelmed with people kicking the door in to register their guns.
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-15-13, 13:42
I bet the police will be overwhelmed with people kicking the door in to register their guns.
LOL ya I bet
Lawnchair 04
01-15-13, 13:52
So glad I left that state when i did. I'd pay money to see my own face the first time I went to a gun store in Va and the clerk let me hold a handgun! Didn't even know handguns were legal, and I was 22 at the time. Oh we'll that's what you get for growing up on Long Island I guess. My dads struggling to make sense of all this (he's still behind enemy lines), I think he's more pissed because his wwII Mauser just became an assault weapon. You know with its evil bayonet lug and all.
You guys are currently arguing over a law that just got superseded...
mskdgunman
01-15-13, 19:23
As a 23 year (so far) cop in Florida, I can tell you that NY has the most ****ed up convoluted laws I have ever seen. Reading about all those poor ****ers in that God forsaken state makes me shiver at what's in store for the rest of us now that the infection has spread. Florida's laws are a little vauge when it comes to certain things with firearms but NY's seems to be specifically worded to cause confusion. I feel bad for brother and sister officers who have to work in that enviorment. I also find it funny that while we in Florida honor NY's concealed carry permits, NYC does not return the favor even for out of state cops...some brotherhood. One of many reasons I'll never visit there again.
Most cops up to and including Feds wouldn't know a pre-ban or post ban whatever if you butt stroked them with it which is part of the problem. Speaking from experience, most cops are ignorant when it comes to guns which is where many of the problems come from. I've always wanted some rookie to ask to see my rifle to see if it was compliant. if you want to look at the guts of the thing to see how many US made parts are in it or when the mag was made, get a search warrant if you think you can articulate it well enough. Maybe in NY but not in FL.
Hey y'all and greetings from TX.
I'm gonna say first that it's a ****ing travesty what your state legislature has done to you and I hope for the best and that it can all be overturned based on the unconstitutionality of it all.
That said the main reason I am posting this here is partly because even though I've been on M4C a while, I've done the recommended thing (read more~post less~search often) and therefore haven't reached that all important post count to post in GD.
I was reading about the situation in the GD section and saw a few references to the FOP being in support of the legislation that was passed. To say this disturbs me would be a gross understatement. Can anyone here LEO or not confirm that and whether it was the state body of the FOP or a local lodge?
Thanks in advance and y'all keep your powder dry.
Lobo
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-15-13, 22:17
http://www.scopeny.org/index.html
please sign this
http://www.nysenate.gov/senator/kathleen-a-marchione
Add your name to the suit
Lawyer : Jim Tresmond, Attorney in Buffalo, New York. Attorney phone is 716.202.4301
Successfully represented clients in the past, on Second Amendment issues in NYS Supreme Court. This
case is pro-
bono for all the gun owners of New York. According to Mr. Tresmond, the new ban is illegal as it is
an ex-facto law taking away previously owned property and he intends to file this action in Federal
Court.
We are looking for as many as possible to add to CLASS ACTION CASE:
SEND Your Name and EMAIL ADDRESS and phone number to:
psacco1@twcny.rr.com
OH Boy! Just printed out the new/changes to NYS CPL and penal law, etc. 54 pages:eek:
You would think they could write this stuff in understandable english. I'll be pouring over this for the next two days.
I've had retired LEO's calling me all day asking questions about what to do with their now "high cap mags".
Right now all I can say is hold on to them until they come knocking on your door;)
........I can't wait until 2015 when my fiancé and I can move. It's not just the government here, it's the general public too. They're total assholes. They're pushy, selfish, ignorant, arrogant, elitist, impatient and superficial. **** this state.I felt the same way when I lived in the SF Bay Area. Finally moved to MI and halleluiah! The people here are so much nicer, educated, polite. Should have done it sooner.
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-17-13, 07:20
OH Boy! Just printed out the new/changes to NYS CPL and penal law, etc. 54 pages:eek:
You would think they could write this stuff in understandable english. I'll be pouring over this for the next two days.
I've had retired LEO's calling me all day asking questions about what to do with their now "high cap mags".
Right now all I can say is hold on to them until they come knocking on your door;)
My wife has read it twice and she goes to work and they all get into fights over what it means. She has instructed me that we have a year,there not coming to the house, how could they? The DA office in Ontario county has had a long standing order out not to bring any so called high cap mag violations in front of it, I only mention that as a point of reference to the local climate. A lot can happen in a year. I read it but not being versed in Penal law leaves me a little off center compared to her. They are never coming knocking, can you imagine the ramifications this would have? People are not going to give up there guns! Its suicide for LE, I am very scared for her right now to say the least for all of you.
The DA office in Ontario county has had a long standing order out not to bring any so called high cap mag violations in front of it, I only mention that as a point of reference to the local climate.
Again, my mother goes way back with DA Tantillo. I've never heard of such an order. What's your source on this? PM me if it's sensitive or whatever.
(I have had OCSD officers tell me that they couldn't give less of a shit if I or anyone else has full-cap mags. But I hadn't heard that was actual policy
Its not so much policy as an implied course of action. The DA in my county lost a few cases in regards to High cap mags and pretty much pleads to a lesser charge or just makes them go away (read: dimissd).:o
Thats why the new law has no grandfathering in it for mags. They specifically address that in the new law.
My wife has read it twice and she goes to work and they all get into fights over what it means. She has instructed me that we have a year,there not coming to the house, how could they? The DA office in Ontario county has had a long standing order out not to bring any so called high cap mag violations in front of it, I only mention that as a point of reference to the local climate. A lot can happen in a year. I read it but not being versed in Penal law leaves me a little off center compared to her. They are never coming knocking, can you imagine the ramifications this would have? People are not going to give up there guns! Its suicide for LE, I am very scared for her right now to say the least for all of you.
I understand how shes feeling. I have never felt such inner turmoil over any law before. I guess my test will come when they start ordering drastic actions, and on who. In the meantime, I'll be up in Albany this Saturday to lend my support to the NYSRPA against our exhalted dictator, I mean govenor, and his lackeys.
I've said it before and will say it again. We are in for some dark times. So keep the flame lit.
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