Training and Ammo Prices [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

rickp

01-15-13, 17:48

So I'm curious, with ammo prices running the the way they're running, how is the training industry being affected.
I know how it's affecting me, personally I feel I need more range time not necessarily more classes, but that;s not to say if the right class came up I wouldn't attend, but now with prices being what they are, I have to be honest and pass all together.

Again I'm curious, how are others dealing with with this ammo situation. Not only is is hard to find but paying what some are asking is just not happening on my end.

Have the big established schools seen a drop in attendance yet?

R.

J-Dub

01-15-13, 17:57

Dry fire practice.

polydeuces

01-15-13, 18:14

One thing I'm kinda missing is a discussion about who's able to shoot any more these days. The one thing it's all about, really.

Who can really afford it - what the real world, net-effect is of all this insanity?

Considering the (un)availability and outrageous cost of ammo doing some (serious) shooting for a day is pretty much a non-starter for me.

Which begs the questions;
Who is hogging all this ammo, and what are they doing with it?
Who can afford take classes - any of them,
How many classes have been "postponed" (I know of at least one 3-day Car-class being "bumped" due to above ammo issues)
How much longer can this last, and what is to be expected?

It's just mind-boggling ****ing outrageous if one considers the current state of things, there's some really idiotic cattle/panic behavior out there - it's not like ammo- and part manufacturers all over the US seized production, or ran out of resources.

Makes me wonder if we keep going like this we don't need a ban or anything like it - we'll implode all on our own - no assistance needed.

The only other option I see is in about 3-4 months when this entire thing has blown over, a whole bunch of people will be shooting some pretty expensive ammo from their $2K PSA rifles, and I'm buying at the usual discount cost once everyone has run out of cash/credit and supply is back up to normal level.

Could happen.
Has happened.

LowSpeed_HighDrag

01-15-13, 18:16

Nope.Cant find anymore 9mm or .223 in the area, and SGAMMO is clean out.

GeorgiaBoy

01-15-13, 18:21

Not nearly as much as I wish. This time last year I was shooting about 100 of pistol and 100 of rifle a week. Now, 100 a rifle per month and 100 of pistol every 2 weeks. 100 of .22 conversion of rifle each week.

I don't like to tap into my reserve ammo, and only shoot what I buy. Not much to buy right now.

SteyrAUG

01-15-13, 18:24

Shooting Really Is Becoming A Rich Man's Activity... (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92124)

It's sad really, it was something I could reasonably afford to do with a minimum wage job in high school.

In 1983 a Colt AR15 would cost you about $225.00, so if you made minimum wage (then $3.35 an hour) it would require you to work 67 hours to purchase one. And that $225.00 adjusted for inflation would be about $490.00 today.

In contrast, a Colt AR15 today will cost you about $900, so if you are earning minimum wage ($7.25 an hour) one would need to work about 124 hours to buy the same rifle. Damn near twice as much money, requiring twice as many hours.

So while the minimum wage generally matches inflation from 1983 to the present, the cost of an AR15 does not.

As for ammo. I can remember when 1,000 of military surplus 5.56 would run you about $80.00, so if you made minimum wage in 1983 that case of ammo would require you to work about 24 hours. Adjusted for inflation that same ammo would cost $175 today.I'd LOVE to find a place selling Lake City 55 gr. for $175.00

The best deal today on the same ammo is about $300 for 1,000 rounds and you'd have to work about 40 hours to pay for it.

And this has nothing to do with "ban prices" or unusual demand. During the Obama gun sale prices for AR15s and ammo were well above the current prices. It just requires the average person to work twice as many hours to do the same thing 30 years later.

And that's a shame.

Hmac

01-15-13, 18:26

I've been accumulating ammo over the last year or so so I've been able to shoot...just did a fun shoot here; a benefit for the FOP. It was about 250 rounds. An excellent indoor range will be opening here in the next week or two and they're planning some kind of action pistol league as well as a variety of training courses. I'm not sure what kind of ammo burden those will impose or how ammo availability will affect their plans. I'm planning on doing a TriCon pistol course here in August. That's scheduled for 2000 rounds. I'll be interested to see what ammo availability is like at that time and how it might affect the number of students or the number of rounds.

og556

01-15-13, 18:26

I've just been shooting my 15-22 rifle and AA .22 G17 conversion.

ralph

01-15-13, 18:36

Buy a press and reload..you'll save at least 50% of you current ammo costs...

ForTehNguyen

01-15-13, 19:12

magpul dynamics said they will start allowing 22LR in classes, so trainers are adjusting

seb5

01-15-13, 19:42

I cannot justify a 3 day class 2-3 times a year like I've done in the past. Now it would cost $1500.00 just for ammo not counting the other $1000.00 to $1200.00 for tuition , gas , hotel, food and other odds and ends. That doesn't even address the issue of no way to replace the ammo. I'm back to once a month with the department and once a month on my own shooting much less, along with reload, transition, and malfunction drills with dummy rounds.

jaxman7

01-15-13, 19:46

Except for one 3 gun match and testing out some new muzzle devices and doing a function check on a new build, no. All since 14 Dec. ALOT more dry firing. I hate it. I did more shooting last year than ever. Mainly 9mm and. 223/5.56 and really don't have the funds to shoot alot AND stockpile. Now I am in 'squirrel trying to collect nuts for winter' mode. The ban is effectively active for me now so to speak.

-Jax

mizer67

01-15-13, 19:54

Cost will cause most people to avoid owning firearms in general, or at least shooting much.

Even without laws, gun owners will become a minority.

No real solution to it, except teaching your friends to reload and cast their own bullets (at least until lead is made illegal).

YVK

01-15-13, 19:58

Yes. Cut down the volume a bit, but not going to stop. Whatever skill I've been able to acquire, I don't intend to lose. Shooting is a perishable skill. The range I go to continues to be busy.

gun71530

01-15-13, 20:00

I'm doing a lot more dry fire.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

og556

01-15-13, 20:47

I've just been shooting my 15-22 and Advantage arms kit for my G17.

Eric D.

01-15-13, 21:45

I got lucky having gotten into reloading at the beginning of October but I'm still cutting back. The range I go to is usually still busy and it seems that people who have ammo are shooting it. I have noticed a lot of ARs running .22 conversions.

I really think part of the shortage of ammo, parts, guns, etc. is due to so many people buying shitloads of stuff for the sole purpose of selling it at exorbitant prices with no intention of actually using any of it. Prices from big retailers haven't gone up very much, they just don't have anything left to sell. At a gun show last weekend each table selling ammo had DOZENS of cases stacked up behind them. PMC x-tac for $195/200rds, Federal xm193 for $900/1k, complete lowers for $900, RRAs for $1800. These people are abusing the market system with this kind of mass 'buy and flip' that's going on.

Cameron

01-15-13, 21:48

I'm still shooting once a week, I'm just pissed my friends can't afford to shoot with me. I did realize though, that I had switched from shooting predominantly .308 and .45 through until about 2006 to shooting .223 and 9mm now...

sadmin

01-15-13, 22:16

Shooting regularily; .22, thankfully if we can count on anything, it's the .22 being around after this cray cray

scottryan

01-15-13, 22:24

I have already began putting some of my centerfire guns and mags in long term storage.

Shooting them costs too much and ruins their value.

I will go back to my 10/22 and build more centerfire bolt guns like it did during the AWB.

I am not touching any of my reserves of ammo or mags.

I only have one AR-15 at the ready now and it is a beat to shit 11.5" Colt PD trade in.

a0cake

01-15-13, 22:33

gun71530

01-15-13, 22:52

I'm out of shit ammo in 5.56; all my AE 55 grain black box and similar is gone.

It would be imprudent to waste the good stuff on paper and steel right now, I think.

So, .22LR it is. I needed to get acquainted with the new CZ 455 anyway.

I'm with you. I'm not touching the 5.56 I have currently. I will be shooting mostly handgun and rimfire for the time being.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

opmike

01-15-13, 23:02

As sad as it is, I'm out of "bury it into a berm" type ammo, and all the local shelves are cleaned out of 9mm and 5.56

So, dry fire for me and .22LR until (or if) this shit dies down a bit.

NWPilgrim

01-15-13, 23:07

I haven't stopped shooting. I just handloaded several sets of new test loads for the .40 and 9mm and planning to get to the range next week to shoo them up, about 300 rds total. I went twice in with rifles December and shot up 400-500 rds which is my typical amount. I have plenty for a couple of years, but if things are still dry in April I will start slowing down and get out the .22LR more often until I can determine how long the drought will last.

GeorgiaBoy

01-15-13, 23:16

No one in Washington is talking about banning ammo, so I continue to not find an actual reason there is a run on ammo at every mention of "ban" or "new laws".

It gets ridiculous.

PA PATRIOT

01-15-13, 23:19

Edited by Phila PD

YVK

01-15-13, 23:40

No one in Washington is talking about banning ammo, so I continue to not find an actual reason there is a run on ammo at every mention of "ban" or "new laws".

It gets ridiculous.

Executive order blocking commercial import of foreign military caliber ammo would shut out all cheap Russian made .223 ammo, 100% of 5.45x39 ammo as no US manufacturer makes it, almost 100% of 7.62x39, all Eastern Europe made ammo (Prvi, S&B, etc) and all NATO surplus ammo in 5.56 .308. What else am I missing? Oh, Israeli and Turkish 5.56, Brazilian Magtech, Pakistani linked .308...
Note no ban on such ammo, no violation of 2A, simply reduction of influx of cop-killing, armor-piercing, war zone-belonging high-powered ammunition specifically purpose built for those evil ARs and such.
Think it is out of question? Not even theoretical possibility?

Magic_Salad0892

01-15-13, 23:45

Last I shot was a few days ago.

I'm slowing down, but doing more dry fire stuff with airsoft guns, and SIRT pistol than ever.

crusader377

01-15-13, 23:57

I will continue to shoot but moving forward will mainly be .22 rifles. Until the ammo supply issue improves I will not be shooting my ARs or my service pistols.

Moose-Knuckle

01-16-13, 01:56

Executive order blocking commercial import of foreign military caliber ammo would shut out all cheap Russian made .223 ammo, 100% of 5.45x39 ammo as no US manufacturer makes it, almost 100% of 7.62x39, all Eastern Europe made ammo (Prvi, S&B, etc) and all NATO surplus ammo in 5.56 .308. What else am I missing? Oh, Israeli and Turkish 5.56, Brazilian Magtech, Pakistani linked .308...
Note no ban on such ammo, no violation of 2A, simply reduction of influx of cop-killing, armor-piercing, war zone-belonging high-powered ammunition specifically purpose built for those evil ARs and such.
Think it is out of question? Not even theoretical possibility?

This and measures to tax ammo out of most shooters price range.

Belmont31R

01-16-13, 02:20

I have been shooting very little for a while. Simply can't afford to replace anything I shoot anymore so I don't want to burn up what I do have left.

Steyr is right. Even compared to 5-10 years ago ammo has gotten really expensive. I have some receipts for ammo I bought in 2005, and it was well under $200 shipped for 1k rounds brass cased Federal FMJ. You could get surplus for even cheaper. Just in 7 years it's gone up at least $100 per 1k, and the surplus dried up. Almost everything now is new production which eliminates competition, and metal prices have gone up. 2005 was when I got into AR's, and stuff was a lot cheaper before that from everything I've been told.

When I shot competitively in the 90's with 12GA trap loads those same loads I shot are now DOUBLE the cost they were. A case was like $40, and looking at a few sites just now the going rate is like $70-90 for the same stuff.

I simply don't see how people who don't have tons of disposable income can afford to buy this stuff anymore, and then spend a few hundred a month on ammo to actually use them.

Kfgk14

01-16-13, 02:41

Alex V

01-16-13, 06:15

There are classes I want to take this year, but bless I can find some reasonably priced ammo that's not king to happen. :-(

duece71

01-16-13, 06:18

I agree, a .22 kit seems like a good idea. Lets see what happens in the coming months. I am glad I stocked up on 556/223 every month this past year. Just a little out of my budget each month.

ralph

01-16-13, 09:49

PA PATRIOT

01-16-13, 10:05

For a long time now the writing has been on the wall that this day was coming and those that did not buy low and stack high will be the ones doing without.

Hell local stores with scheduled ammo delivery's have people lining up 50 deep the minute the stuff hits the shelve and even WalMart cant bring it in fast enough.

So its time to reap what the American people has sowed.

Kyohte

01-16-13, 10:29

I shoot less from January to March anyway due to the Christmas "got new gun, so I'll forget all the safety rules" crowd that shows up at the ranges. It's similar to the New Years resolution gym rush that packs the gyms this time of year. Put that on top of all the panic buying, and until things get less nutty, it's dry-fire only for my wife and I.

Arik

01-16-13, 10:33

I switched to shooting surplus rifles. 8mm, x54, 303, 6.5x55, 7.5 French are now all cheaper to shoot then 5.45 and 5.56 and in some cases even 9mm. More importantly they are easy to find. No one is sold out of those. I had accumulated a decent amount of 223, 5.45, 9, 45 but at the moment im afraid to shoot it not knowing how much and where i can get more

Most cost about $14 per box if PPU. French 7.5 surplus us $6.50 per box of 20, about that of x39 wolf

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

arizonaranchman

01-16-13, 11:11

I'd be waiting to see where all this is going before I did much shooting. What you now have may be all you get for a long long time possibly. Make sure you don't let your supply fall below a certain level, as prices will be in the stratosphere soon.

This is why you prepare while all is well and the sun is shining. When the hurricane is landing onshore is not the time to run to the store and start stocking up. It's too late now folks. You've missed the boat if you're now looking where to get things.

Training? Not anytime soon, and very minimal for the time being. We're heading into one of the darkest times in US history I fear. So conserve and sit quietly.

arizonaranchman

01-16-13, 11:18

All shooting is on hold for the time being til we see where this is all going. You'd better hang on to every round you've got til you know what's happening.

jaxman7

01-16-13, 11:59

But considering what's going on, It's probably going to be the only way left to shoot on a regular basis, if you want to shoot something other than .22 rimfires..

What's sad is that I cannot find .22 anywhere in the surrounding area I live in. 9mm/.40/.45/.223 and other .mil cartridges I can understand but .22!?

-Jax

30 cal slut

01-16-13, 12:13

not a bad time to be shifting your training to other topics such as tac-med, combatives, and bladed weapons.

this too shall blow over, when (i should really say if) another federal awb does not come to pass.

brickboy240

01-16-13, 12:36

SteyrAUG...where IS that Colt AR for 900 bucks?

Seriously if you look at the pricing of some of this training....if you can swing the price and time off for the training...is the cost of the ammo really a concern?

Sort of like people that whine about the gas mileage on a large luxury SUV. If you can swing 70-80 grand for the SUV....are you a person that really is concerned with the cost of a gallon of gas? Probably not.

Yes...most of that really good training IS a rich man's sport much like polo or golf. If you have a SCAR or top tier AR, tons of mags and an HK or Wilson pistol....the cost of ammo is probably not a huge factor for you...right?

Hence why I have not done any. I'd love to...don't get me wrong...but I have kids to feed and a house to pay for. If you can swing this stuff...great..more power to you.

-brickboy240

J-Dub

01-16-13, 12:57

That reminds me, i need some .22lr ammo.

Face it folks, you better start enjoying rimfires and pcp air guns, because in 10yrs thats all we'll have.

GeorgiaBoy

01-16-13, 13:45

This and measures to tax ammo out of most shooters price range.

I think that would be much harder to do than reinstate a AWB or mag capacity limits.

There wouldn't be an arbitrary tax on just "evil" ammunition like 5.56, .308, 9mm, .45, etc. They would have to tax all of it, and if its anything like the fabled "300% tax", every gun owner would be up in arms, not just the anti-AWB types like us.

NWPilgrim

01-16-13, 14:46

I feel ****ing poor after every range trip now, knowing that I have less and less physical ammo and it takes more and more of this shit fiat currency to get the same amount of ammo...if I can find any...**** this damnable communist president some dumbass parasites stupidly elected!

+1 Spot on! And that includes the 50+% that voted for him (parasites meaning "takers," to me; that is folks who want to take stuff from others to give to others by force of law).

I have been reloading 24 years and am well stocked, but any one just starting it now will have a hard time to find components. I still recommend it because it is better to start now and be ready when components are again available than to put it off. If you have been a gun owner for a few years or more and have not stocked up on ammo or components then you have no one else to blame. If you could not afford to do so then it is a mute point either way. Demand runs in cycles due to politics and economic activity, it is silly to expect a smooth supply => demand all the time forever. Hopefully this current drought will even out in 6-12 months and new shooters acan start stocking up.

You know, with 100 million gun owners I don't think it takes much to suck up all inventory. The supply system is proably based on a small percentage of gun owners buying ammo at any one time. IF we all decide to purchase ammo in the same month it could easily be ten times the normal amount and if we decide to all buy double or more what we normally would then we are increasing demand 20-100 times normal. Easily in the several billions of rounds all at once.

(100 million gun owners with 300+ million guns) X (just 100 rds on average purchase) = shit load of ammo! (or 10 billion rounds)