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View Full Version : Trigger test - Which trigger is "best" for you?



septic-tank13
03-02-08, 15:27
You ever get tired of reading forum questions regarding the “best” this or that?

The only thing I like less are the responses about the “best” this or that…

www.dictionary.com describes “best” in adjective form as:

1. of the highest quality, excellence, or standing: the best work; the best students.
2. most advantageous, suitable, or desirable: the best way.
3. largest; most: the best part of a day.

I didn’t write this article to rant. Instead I’d like for folks to consider a few things. When we rate anything as “best” it is certainly relative. If, for example, a guy test drives four cars on a Saturday and opts to buy one, he’ll probably tell his buddy over beers Saturday night that he bought the best of the four. Did he buy the “best” car available? Who knows? Of those he tried, he probably bought the best for his needs. No matter how you slice the bread he only tried four of MANY available cars… By that rationale how could he possibly determine “best” from a handful of cars? He determines “best” by those cars he tried and thus, he chose a car that fit his needs.

Some friends and I were sitting around having one of those “best” conversations regarding AR15 triggers and fire control groups when it donned on me, that without trying them all we couldn’t really know. Even then, the AR platform has become so versatile it can be used in any configuration from pistol, CQB, varmint hunting, medium and large game hunting, precision, competition, long range, extended range, and many others. I can think of several different trigger weights and styles I’d prefer for most of the applications noted above. As a result I wanted to get my hands on as many of them as I could and do some side by side comparing. To take it a step further, I wanted to have others lay their hands on them for their impressions as well.

I started contacting trigger makers in October about this test and evaluation. Most of the triggers were donated or of low cost for the purposes of writing the article. My commitment was pretty simple – I’d have a built AR lower with everybody’s trigger installed, so we could swap an upper onto any of them and do some genuine comparisons. I’d also run lots of ammo through each rig to see how they worked under heavy use. I wrote letters to 14 makers, figuring I’d hear from 7 of them, 4 of which would send me something. Four lowers and plenty of ammunition… Not a big investment on my part… Imagine my surprise when 9 entities sent a total of 14 triggers for test… WOW! I opted to have all the lowers built prior to an “AR build clinic” I held at my shop. Members of the AR15.com Iowa Home Town Forum showed up and we built uppers and lowers with instruction and theory for those new and old to the AR platform. I was beginning to wonder if I’d get it all done in time, but I did. As a result, folks who came to the build clinic were able to handle ALL the lowers with triggers installed. We then took those lowers folks were interested in out to my range for some hands on time.

I’ve listed the fire control groups below that I was able to test. As you look at them, you’ll see some pretty neat things. I ended up with the following for test:

Chip McCormick (CMC)
-single stage curved
-single stage flat
-two stage flat

This is a modular drop in style trigger. It is very easy to install. You simply lower it into the lower receiver, line up the holes, and you’re nearly finished. Like all drop in units it is necessary that the trigger and sear pins are held in place. They provide a means to affix the assembly rather than a means for actual fulcrum contact. You simply install the e-clips on the pins after you drop them in. A word to the wise on this… There is a reason they send you six or seven clips when four are required! My advice is to install an e-clip on the end of two pins prior to sliding them in. Then, you only have to contend with two little clips against the side of your lower instead of all four. Needle nose pliers worked like a charm for me and this was extremely simple. I loosened the grip low enough to allow the safety selector to be removed as the detent dropped a bit. I never actually removed the grip, spring, or detent. Then I installed the trigger, pushed in the pins, double checked the safety, and retightened the grip. The quality is very good and the single stage unit was impressive.

Although I generally consider myself a single stage guy, I especially like the flat trigger in the two stage configuration. The flat shoe offers me a bit more room to put my finger way down on the tip and gives me better trigger control. I happened to have this one already on my favorite varmint rig. At first I didn’t know if I’d like it, but now I can’t imagine using anything else on that rig. Both the curved and single stage units were very nice. It is amazing to me that makers have come up with drop in units like these. Pin holes and receiver floor depth vary slightly among manufacturers. You can’t always count on a drop in to be the right choice. The fact is they may not work in every lower. Luckily enough, they ran like a champ in my Superior Arms lowers and I had no installation or function issues.

When I first discussed this with Chip I had this feeling I was going to like him. He speaks clearly and methodically with a southern drawl. He’s a busy guy but he made time for me and focused on my test. The more I interact with tests and evaluations, I’m finding a common trend with most of the folks in this industry – they are fine people with great character.

His trigger, like many, was a clear answer to the lack of aftermarket units available at the time he conceived his design. Chip’s roots started primarily with the 1911 crowd both as a builder and competitor. He explained to me that on a particular prairie dog shoot he used an AR15 for the first time. He returned, enjoying the trip and rifle, and opted to give his AR15 some upgrades. After searching for just the right trigger he was still left unsatisfied even though he’d bought or used just about everything available. As a result he built his own. Chip wanted something that worked well and was easy to install. I’d say he accomplished his goals.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/137_3768.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/137_3769.jpg

JP Enterprises
-component trigger
-modular trigger

John Paul has a habit of making some pretty serious stuff. His component trigger allows a great deal of adjustability and manages to do it in a very versatile package. Within reason, you can just about set this thing up any way you’d like. Creep, no creep, heavy, light, two stage, single stage, over travel, etc. – it is all there. I wouldn’t say this is a unit for the complete novice to install, but frankly, with moderate weapons knowledge and basic AR theory you can make this one work. The set up can be tedious, but the work is worth it. You aren’t going to get a fantastic trigger without some work in most cases. Although I had installed quite a few of them, JP offered to install mine for me to make certain it was to his liking. He did it up right… The lower came back to me in top shape and the single stage set up with the just a faint take up, worked very well. Super product!

JP also came out with a modular drop in trigger assembly. To look at the little bugger you have to wonder if there are little tiny machinists you can hire to do little tiny jobs, or what? This little piece is a work of art. The basic principles are similar to the CMC, but it is a bit different. This unit utilizes a pair of screws on the bottom side to contact the receiver floor. In the case of the CMC, you simply push in the pins they provide and tighten them so they can float without vibrating or working their way out either side. Next, you simply tighten down the screws against the receiver floor so it binds against the pins. Nothing moves after they are torqued. The assembly is held in place and the hammer and sear rotate on bushings inside the unit, not on the pins. This is a pretty slick unit and easy to install. There was some adjustability as well, which gave it a bit more versatility than some.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/136_3656.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/136_3664.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/136_3666.jpg

Accuracy Speaks
-single stage

Derrick Martin has been running in precision shooting circles as long as I can remember. Even though I don’t believe him to be a picker his pictures would indicate otherwise, not that there is anything wrong with that... The joke refers to the pics all over his website. When I first visited the site I wondered what the hell was wrong with him. I was foolish enough to make mention of it as my wife walked by, to which she stopped, took a look and remarked “looks like something you’d do… Would you like to be called the kettle or the pot today sweetheart?” After giving this some thought, I giggled, and figured Derrick was my kind of guy. Cheryl, his wife, made most all the arrangements for my test and manages to run a tight ship through Derrick’s absences. I can really appreciate the man/wife teams, as my wife has become a larger part of my small organization over the last few years.

His product is pretty darned good. Like many AR triggers it is very simple. He has taken a fair design in the stock trigger and made it much better. When I first installed the trigger I was disappointed. It had quite a bit of creep and it was a bit sticky. No matter what I did, I couldn’t seem to get the stickiness out. For example, if you pulled the creep out of the trigger and then removed your finger from the shoe, it would remain pulled up tight against the sear instead of returning forward. I bet I took that trigger out and reinstalled it two dozen times. I tried different trigger springs, inspections, and lubes. Nothing seemed to make it work like what I had expected. Frankly, I assumed from the way it had a tendency to cam, that a geometry issue may exist. I then opted to put the trigger in another lower receiver… The problem still existed.

I ended up calling Accuracy Speaks, and Marty, their smith, remarked that something must be wrong. He sent me out another unit ASAP. You would not believe the difference. Upon inspection the only thing I can think of is the sear surface could be suspect. It might have been too long, but it was hard to tell without having both side by side to compare. A brief phone call later, and I was back in business. It is amazing how well it works. It functions flawlessly now and was one of the most consistent I tested. It also was one of the most simple. Laying in parts on the table you probably couldn’t tell it apart from mil spec stuff, but installed in the lower, you’d have to be stark raving mad to move past the function between the Accuracy Speaks unit and the mil spec stuff.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/138_3885.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/138_3886.jpg

Armalite
-two stage national match

I was hoping to tour the Armalite facility, but time constraints and scheduling conflicts proved to hold the proverbial trump card. I can say that traveling often through the Quad Cities area has its advantages after you recognize you’re in the heart of AR15 country. I plan on visiting there again in coming weeks, so if I can shed some light on the Armalite organization first hand, I certainly will.

The Armalite is a very robust design. The first thing I noticed was the size and width of the parts. I don’t know if this has something to do with mass or strength or both. Whatever the reason, you can’t not notice how stoutly it is built. The function is just as you’d imagine. It works flawlessly like a National Match trigger should. There really isn’t anything special about the trigger, it just works. I can’t see this trigger failing me. While talking with some of the Armalite staff, they reinforced this theory to me. Their aim is one of reliability and repeatability. There are no screws, so nothing once tight can become loosened. The disconnector has three slots, so you may move the trigger spring into one of three slots to rise or lower pull weight a few ounces at a time. This trigger proves to be just about solid as a rock. I’ve listened to some folks who criticize the Armalite and other triggers that are only surfaced hardened. Although there is merit in through hardening, a trigger like the Armalite NM doesn’t need to be modified or changed, thus the surface hardened hammer and sear surfaces will indeed last a great while.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/138_3895.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/138_3896.jpg

Rock River Arms
-two stage national match
-two stage varmint

The Rock River Arms unit is very similar to the Armalite unit. The RRA construction isn’t quite as large, but maybe size doesn’t matter… Somewhere I can hear my wife giggling again.

I was given a tour of their facility by Steve Mayer. Although pics aren’t allowed on a general basis, I was able to take some quick snaps of the trigger bench. Some may assume RRA has a trigger design and some third party casts and cuts the parts. Then a further assumption might be another party bagging them and sending them to RRA to be distributed. I really hadn’t thought about it either way until I was looking at the work being performed. I watched two young men work like crazy at the sole job of refining the trigger set. Jason was working on trigger sets to be bagged and sold. He tuned and polished each unit as a matched set. This isn’t a scenario where they snag parts out of a bin and make a “kit” to be sold. Jason hand works each set in a jig and each set is shaped, polished, and given the diamond stone where needed. Joe was building matched sets that were installed and tested in RRA lowers – IE, each RRA lower Joe builds with the RRA trigger gets tuned and installed in that particular lower and then the lower is sent on down the line for the balance of the work. I wish pics were available as the facility is clean and white. Even the 1911 room is clean and white. It was certainly my kind of work environment. Every area of the facility was well planned for proper flow, well tooled, and clean. The triggers themselves are super. They work just as a NM trigger should. I can say from my own experience with lots of them, they have quite a grasp on the quality control. To say you could pick up a weapon and realize with one squeeze that it was a RRA NM is overstating a bit, but not by much… What I found interesting was their new varmint trigger. It is very similar to the NM, with a lighter pull weight. Talk about a great unit! If you can install the mil spec stuff, you can install this. No adjustments, no problems, just a fine trigger pull. I haven’t been hearing about the RRA varmint trigger much, and maybe it is a secret. If so, it shouldn’t be for long…

Jason at work:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/137_3746.jpg

Joe at work:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/137_3745.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/138_3897.jpg

Alexander Arms
-single stage

When Bill Alexander and I first discussed his trigger he was proud of his product and remarked that it was built for reliability and feel. He didn’t really give me the feeling he was trying to “pitch” me a sales line. Frankly, I was kind of looking forward to it. I now realize my impression of Bill being slightly subdued, could have been by his design… I pulled the trigger out of the packaging and spent quite a bit of time fondling it. The appearance is beyond belief. The shoe is narrow and slightly forward of the average shoe placement. This was designed specifically to enhance feel, especially when cold weather requires the use of mittens or gloves. This is a hard trigger to get used to, but it is certainly worth your time. Take a look at the pics and you’ll notice when the disconnector has allowed the hammer to move up, it rests at a much higher position than the average hammer. Why isn’t it laying flat like the position it is in when the bolt carrier moves rearward, then forward??? Because, it doesn’t have to be horizontal… With a higher hammer position it moves quite a bit less to contact the firing pin and speeds lock time considerably. The cool factor is certainly in place here as well. The 1911 guys will certainly take notice of the skeletonized hammer and trigger. Bill was being coy when he described the trigger. The geometry of the sear engagement is such that there is nearly no camming whatsoever. Even though I have a model with .050” over center build, the trigger he sells currently is built to .005” and is the bee’s knees.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/138_3821.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/138_3826.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/138_3827.jpg

Geissele
-DMR

What can I say? Bill and Amy build a super duper unit. I had heard many stories about the Geissele, but never used one myself to any length. I dropped this unit in and it needed no adjustment. I simply tried it, and opted to lighten the hammer just a bit, by bending the hammer spring. It broke like you can’t believe. Again, this is the result of proper geometry and it shows.

When I visited with Bill about this I wanted to learn as much as I could about his product. I started by asking the proper way to pronounce his name. The “Bill” part was pretty easy. The Geissele part is rarely spoken correctly. In fact I’ve heard his name pronounced so many different ways, I wondered if there weren’t multiple companies we happened to be talking about. The word “guys” and the word “lee” make up the name, “Guys” + “Lee” = Geissele.

Bill started by explaining that at the time he was shooting matches there were a few nice AR triggers out there, but he really believed there was great room for improvement. He really set out to make one for himself, and as luck would have it, he did a tremendous job which has turned into a highly successful business for him and his wife. Our conversation was too long to depict here, but suffice it to say I was very impressed. Not only was I impressed with the product, but more with his approach. Bill set out some basic parameters when he began his design. Things like function, geometry, use of full power springs, etc. were all on the list, but he specifically left out price. He told me he didn’t want cost to influence the build and as a direct result of sparing no expense, he has come up with a winner. He’s now moved onto automatic fire control assemblies. Did anyone ever expect to have the blessings of a fantastic trigger and auto capability in the same rifle? They rarely go together, so if you’re in the market for such a thing Geissele can provide…

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/136_3662.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/136_3663.jpg

Timney
-modular

Jason Mladineo and I spent a bit of time on the phone. This is the second project he and I have worked on together. I recently wrapped up a three month test with a Timney trigger for the precision bolt crowd. Many of these kinds of tests can be handled without a single call, but I must admit, I enjoy visiting. Jason certainly fits in this group. The Timney trigger is similar to the JP and CMC in that it drops in and provides a bit of room for slop. IE, if your lower is out of spec a bit, you can probably get by. This unit is pretty simple to install. You simply drop it in, use the stock pins to hold the unit in place, and then tighten the two floor screws so they protrude under the trigger housing into the lower receiver floor. The two screws essentially bind the unit into place and the bushings built into the trigger housing provide the bearing surface for the hammer and sear, not the stock pins. I had trouble with the Timney unit when I used some surplus ammo. After diagnosing the problem I noticed I was getting light primer strikes. I called Jason up and he explained that even though the AR15 trigger will usually strike arsenal primers, it was never meant to. He suggested that if you intend on using military grade ammunition, that a person buy the AR10 trigger Timney offers, as it provides heavier springs and a higher mass hammer for certain ignition. To verify his guidance I ran a handful of nearly every .223 ammo I had lying around, and I didn’t have a failure. Problem solved.

The fit and finish are super on this unit. These little units really are a work of art. I even like the skeletonized trigger shoe as it adds a bit of flair to the design. I tried this unit with oil, grease, and I even polished it dry, and it still worked well regardless of what kind of lube or absence thereof I gave it.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/138_3890.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/138_3894.jpg

DPMS
-mil spec semi auto group
-mil spec semi auto group with JP lightweight (yellow) spring kit

In every test like this you have to provide a constant. Granted, stock mil spec stuff is hardly a constant, but when you look at the stock springs and recognize their intended use, we can all agree it is highly effective.

When you add a set up JP “yellows” as many people call them, the trigger pull is much more respectable. The yellow hammer and sear spring set are simply lower weight springs. The nasty creep isn’t removed, but it the gravel of a stock trigger is lessened to some degree. For $8, they are worth taking a look into and may be a compliment to the trigger you already use.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/septic-tank13/ar15%20trigger%20test/139_3910.jpg

The Sum:

To declare a winner is tough as it would be like writing in a “best” vote. I specifically want to avoid that, so we’ll look at this from another angle. The word “favorite” comes to mind.

My favorite component trigger was the Geissele. It was amazing in terms of build, function, and while combining all the attributes of a great trigger it manages to do it with high weight springs. This is a big deal, as low weight springs can fail to ignite some primers.

The Accuracy Speaks trigger was very impressive as well. From a glance it looks just like a mil spec unit, but manages to provide a crisp 3lb single stage pull that is repeatable and reliable all with high weight springs. Adjustments and screws aren’t necessary as it performs well consistently.

My favorite drop in trigger was a tie. I liked my CMC two stage flat trigger as much as any I tried, but the JP unit was right there alongside. All proved to be great units, but if you consider the possibility that the screws that hold the assembly in place for the JP and Timney could back off, you could have a problem. In the case of the Timney there is nothing to stop the pins from falling out should the screws loosen, however a set of KNS pins would remedy the issue should you choose to employ that kind of contingency. The JP does have pins that screw together, so even if you lost the tension of the assembly screws, you could conceivably stay in the race unless more problems arose.

The dark horse for me was the Alexander Arms unit. Although it appeared like the geometry and function of the Accuracy Speaks trigger and the AA unit were very similar I have to give high marks for the raised position of the hammer as well as the forward position of the trigger shoe. As I stated earlier I didn’t figure the AA unit would amount to much as Bill specifically asked me not to hope for much. As it turns out, the trigger was very much to my liking. Again, the shoe takes some getting used to, but in the end it appears to be very reliable and provides for an ultra fast lock time.

When it comes to the NM triggers it is hard to say which unit is a clear winner. Both the RRA and the Armalite are super units. You’d just about have to flip a coin, but if I was going to have to choose, I’d look to the RRA unit by a nose for no other reason than trigger feel.

My Thoughts:

I learned quite a bit about triggers, basic build design, sear/hammer relationship, geometry, etc. throughout this affair. One thing that sticks out in my mind is how trigger pull doesn’t always dictate hammer spring strength and/or lock time. In cases where we are using lightened trigger springs, there can be a risk of light primer strikes. This is basic physics and is hard to avoid. As such, I gained a new found respect for those companies that were able to combine low trigger pull weight while still achieving a quick lock time using stock/mil spec trigger spring weights. This is truly a result of changing the hammer/sear relationship and the angles. I know it sounds simple, but it is tough to actually achieve.

Also, the materials used in these triggers vary greatly. Some are using surface hardened material, while others are through hardened. To take it a step further, some folks incorporate a chromed surface along the hammer and sear face. The springs are made of varying materials as well. To make the assumption that they are similar is true, but misleading. I can tell you the notion of the age old “15 minute trigger job” is one I’ll forget forever with no reservations… The funny thing about AR15 triggers is that they are so simple that everybody thinks they can snip off half the spring here, and bend a bit there and you’re in business. Sure, you’ve lowered the pull weight, but don’t bawl about FTF (fail to fire) issues afterward… Granted, there are places and instances where buffing and polishing past a surface hardened part will work, but for reliability and any decent volume of fire it should be considered an all around bad idea. For the guy who runs a couple of thirty rounders through his A2 once a year, a polish job and snipping off half the trigger spring might do fine, but don’t expect reliability. I’ve seen too many 3 gun competitors who were trying to get by inexpensively find out the hard way that you can’t rely on a poor trigger job.

Grabbing a set of JP yellow springs for your AR plinker sounds like a winner to me, just as using a Geissele in your Designated Marksman Rifle sounds like a winner. Both are appropriate uses of product with quite a cost differential. Would I use a drop in trigger for military applications? I probably wouldn’t. Would I use a NM trigger for a varmint gun? I probably wouldn’t. If you dissect this enough you’ll find there are places where each product fits and fits well.

This brings us full circle. Each one of these triggers has different features and attributes. If you add the fact that not every unit is meant to be used by the military, and some are marketed towards the varminter, hunter, 3 gun competitor, plinker, precision shooter, and otherwise AR fan, you can see they all have a place. There is no “best” here among them in my humble opinion. There is only what is proper and prudent for your shooting needs. When you seek to build an AR15 and come to the fire control group question, you need to ask yourself first and foremost: what will I be doing with this trigger 95% of the time? When you answer that completely honestly, you’ll be in a good position to choose the “best” trigger for you.

I’d like to thank everyone for their cooperation throughout this test and evaluation. I not only enjoyed the triggers and the testing, but I genuinely value the conversations we’ve had. I believe our relationships are in their infancy. Again, thank you for ALL your cooperation.

I encourage you all to follow the provided links to learn more about each trigger directly from the good folks that make them.

-Michael

http://www.geissele.com/

http://www.accuracyspeaks.com/

http://www.alexanderarms.com/

http://www.armalite.com/

http://www.rockriverarms.com/

https://www.chipmccormickcorp.com/

http://www.jprifles.com/

http://www.dpmsinc.com/

http://www.timneytriggers.com/

********

link to my AR build clinic gathering in the Iowa Home Town Forum (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=42&t=288841)

usaffarmer
03-02-08, 20:34
sticky this one!

Shihan
03-02-08, 21:19
Great info, which Timney trigger where you using when you had the light primer strikes?

septic-tank13
03-03-08, 08:12
Great info, which Timney trigger where you using when you had the light primer strikes?

i was using the timney drop in ar15 unit @ 3lbs. i'd like to get my hands on an ar10 trigger and add it to the test. if and when i do, i'll update here.

i'm also tossing around adding review of grips to compliment this. i posted this at snipershide as well, and a discussion there got me thinking the relationship between the grip and trigger shoe in terms of placement make a large impact on trigger control. moreso with precision shooters than door kickers, but still the grip is a personal choice just as the trigger is.

any thoughts? would this be worthy?

militarymoron
03-03-08, 11:16
the relationship between the grip and trigger shoe in terms of placement make a large impact on trigger control. moreso with precision shooters than door kickers, but still the grip is a personal choice just as the trigger is.

the relationship to the other controls are just as important when selecting a grip, IMHO, such as the safety and mag release button. i tried some grips with larger backstraps, and while they improved the relationship to the trigger by moving my hand back, i could no longer reach the mag release with the trigger finger - it was now out of reach. of course, someone with larger hands wouldn't have had the same issues. grip choice is definitely a bit more personal i think.

great writeup on the triggers by the way. i'd have liked to have seen a table with the measured pull weights of each one, and maybe a measurement of takeup and overtravel (i know these can be difficult to measure - just throwing them out as a 'nice to know')

septic-tank13
03-03-08, 13:43
... i'd have liked to have seen a table with the measured pull weights of each one, and maybe a measurement of takeup and overtravel (i know these can be difficult to measure - just throwing them out as a 'nice to know')

i initially was going to do that. however, with triggers capable of being adjusted just about any way you can think of it seemed to be less relevant. i would have, except i didn't want folks to "assign" a particular trigger with a particular pull weight as a result of my writing. each link to the manufacturers should provide specific weights and ranges for their respective products.

i know what you're asking and i don't think it would have been a poor idea, i just opted to leave that kind of thing out since style, application, and build were the criteria i wanted to convey to readers more so than pull weight. when choosing a trigger, weight is a factor, but too often the newbie considers it the only factor and i want to stress the opposite.

Shihan
03-03-08, 14:36
i was using the timney drop in ar15 unit @ 3lbs. i'd like to get my hands on an ar10 trigger and add it to the test. if and when i do, i'll update here.

i'm also tossing around adding review of grips to compliment this. i posted this at snipershide as well, and a discussion there got me thinking the relationship between the grip and trigger shoe in terms of placement make a large impact on trigger control. moreso with precision shooters than door kickers, but still the grip is a personal choice just as the trigger is.

any thoughts? would this be worthy?

"He suggested that if you intend on using military grade ammunition, that a person buy the AR10 trigger Timney offers, as it provides heavier springs and a higher mass hammer for certain ignition. To verify his guidance I ran a handful of nearly every .223 ammo I had lying around, and I didn’t have a failure. Problem solved. "

Thanks, the way this is worded I thought you were using the AR10 trigger after the AR15 didnt work. I had some light primers as well so im heading down to Timney this week to get fixed up.

septic-tank13
03-03-08, 14:41
"He suggested that if you intend on using military grade ammunition, that a person buy the AR10 trigger Timney offers, as it provides heavier springs and a higher mass hammer for certain ignition. To verify his guidance I ran a handful of nearly every .223 ammo I had lying around, and I didn’t have a failure. Problem solved. "

Thanks, the way this is worded I thought you were using the AR10 trigger after the AR15 didnt work. I had some light primers as well so im heading down to Timney this week to get fixed up.


i just got off the phone with jason regarding an AR10 trigger. i was using the AR15 trigger on all kinds of ammo and ran into trouble with surplus stuff in 5.56... as a result i continued the test with ONLY 223rem ammo and no more troubles existed.

he's sending me an AR10 trigger and we'll give it a whirl. i'll be adding it to the line up when i'm finished.

thanks!

jmart
03-03-08, 15:52
Very nice writeup!

Question on the Armalite, what is the span of weight ranges achievable given you can adjust the diconnector spring to three different settings? And what stage does that affect, just the first?

militarymoron
03-03-08, 16:21
understood, septic - makes sense and thanks for the response.

Shihan
03-03-08, 21:01
i just got off the phone with jason regarding an AR10 trigger. i was using the AR15 trigger on all kinds of ammo and ran into trouble with surplus stuff in 5.56... as a result i continued the test with ONLY 223rem ammo and no more troubles existed.

he's sending me an AR10 trigger and we'll give it a whirl. i'll be adding it to the line up when i'm finished.

thanks!

Im going down there Friday and will let you know how the new trigger works out. Jason is a nice guy I was on the phone with him for 30mins or so today.

septic-tank13
03-06-08, 07:28
Very nice writeup!

Question on the Armalite, what is the span of weight ranges achievable given you can adjust the diconnector spring to three different settings? And what stage does that affect, just the first?

we're adding the overall trigger pull weight, so you'll feel the change in weight for the first stage. the second stage, in which to break the sear, will remain constant.

each setting is advertised to reflect around 8oz in felt pull weight. however, in most cases the change per setting is closer to 4 or 5 ounces in actual pull weight. as we coil the spring tighter, we add weight. so to add weight set the spring closer to the floor, to lighten weight take spring up closer to the disconnector.

does this help?

jmart
03-06-08, 10:04
we're adding the overall trigger pull weight, so you'll feel the change in weight for the first stage. the second stage, in which to break the sear, will remain constant.

each setting is advertised to reflect around 8oz in felt pull weight. however, in most cases the change per setting is closer to 4 or 5 ounces in actual pull weight. as we coil the spring tighter, we add weight. so to add weight set the spring closer to the floor, to lighten weight take spring up closer to the disconnector.

does this help?

Yes it does. So you have about a 10oz span; the baseline, baseline +5oz, and baseline +10oz, correct? And it only affects the first stage portion.

By any chance, did you test a Tactical 2-stage trigger? Armalite sells two versions, they look the same, the only thing I can think is the NM are finished better on bearing surfaces and maybe have tuned springs. The NM goes for about $150 street price, the Tactical version goes for about $100. The Tactical is their stock trigger they put in all of their carbines if I'm not mistaken.

I'm running two triggers right now (actually, one, with another awaiting to be tested/broken in), a RRA NM two-stage and a Bill Springfield-tuned CMT trigger. Bill's is a single stage, but the difference between the gritty stock trigger and his tuned version is pretty remarkable. I asked for him to give me the 4lb trigger, I don't have a pull gauge, but it feels pretty kick ass during dry firing. He does all this while retaining stock springs. As I get more time on it, I'll report out.

Thanks again for performing this comparison.

septic-tank13
03-06-08, 11:59
.....and a Bill Springfield-tuned CMT trigger. Bill's is a single stage, but the difference between the gritty stock trigger and his tuned version is pretty remarkable. I asked for him to give me the 4lb trigger, I don't have a pull gauge, but it feels pretty kick ass during dry firing. He does all this while retaining stock springs. ...

i think i've heard of this fellow. is he the guy doing this in a turn around for $35? somebody on ar15.com may have mentioned him, or it may have been another chap...

either way, i will caution anyone against a scenario where we take mil spec hammers and sears and we begin grinding and polishing. the surface hardening on most of them is a few thousands, and you can easily move past this threshold in a hurry while doing your polish job. i recognize that this will work fine for some folks as their rigs don't see enough use to wear past surface hardening and become problematic. or they simply don't put enough rounds down range to wear too much even though the surface hardened portion of the engagement points may be already gone. either way, you're set up for a pending disappointment. plinking out the back door isn't a tough spot to be in when the firearm doubles and/or quits. kickin' down doors for a living would make me reconsider my choice of triggers quick, fast, and in a hurry.

food for thought.

i don't want to have anyone think i'm condemning this fellow considering i don't know his process. i'm speaking generally.

jmart
03-06-08, 12:21
There seems to be some debate as to whether or not current FCGs are surface-hardened or through-hardened.

Bill's work came well recommended from many folks at TOS, some who have used his triggers in 3-day classes w/o issue. Bill provided some of his thoughts on his work, status of quality of triggers, hammers and disconnectors, need to properly lube/maintain trigger, maintenance intervals for parts replacement, etc.

This is for a fun gun, I'm not terribly worried about problems based on the number of favorable reports I've read, but I'll be vigilant.

Severian
03-21-08, 12:44
blank

Shihan
03-21-08, 15:25
Any updates on the Timney AR10 trigger? I have the 3# AR15 version on the way now, I'm wondering if I should return it for one with a heavier spring (they also list 4 lbs and a 4 1/2 lbs units) so I can shoot surplus ammo, or the AR10 model.

The heavier hammer spring with the Timney dosent have anything to do with the trigger pull. If you have problems you can contact them and they can send you out a AR10 hammer spring that will take care of your problems.

septic-tank13
03-21-08, 22:04
Any updates on the Timney AR10 trigger? I have the 3# AR15 version on the way now, I'm wondering if I should return it for one with a heavier spring (they also list 4 lbs and a 4 1/2 lbs units) so I can shoot surplus ammo, or the AR10 model.

just got it wednesday. i installed it tonight and lent the AR10 to a friend as he wanted to run a few hundred through it. that'll loosen it up and i can test it then...

the AR10 trigger does have slightly heavier springs, but keep in mind it also has a much higher mass hammer. the combination makes the difference on the hard primers and such. the lock time is a bit slower, but frankly in this scenario you don't get something for nothing. lower lock time is certainly better, but being relative you have to keep it all in perspective. i'd much rather have a reliable ignition source as opposed to a few miliseconds difference in lock time for all practical purposes.

more to come...

Shihan
03-21-08, 22:27
just got it wednesday. i installed it tonight and lent the AR10 to a friend as he wanted to run a few hundred through it. that'll loosen it up and i can test it then...

the AR10 trigger does have slightly heavier springs, but keep in mind it also has a much higher mass hammer. the combination makes the difference on the hard primers and such. the lock time is a bit slower, but frankly in this scenario you don't get something for nothing. lower lock time is certainly better, but being relative you have to keep it all in perspective. i'd much rather have a reliable ignition source as opposed to a few miliseconds difference in lock time for all practical purposes.

more to come...

Septic have John or Jason mail you a AR10 srping for the AR15 Timney you were having trouble with on the hard primers. I just installed one im mine and will be testing it out tomotrrow. What type of 5.56 were you having problems with? Im taking some Privy out and im trying to see what else I can dig up without upsetting my ammo balances.

Severian
03-21-08, 23:29
blank

septic-tank13
03-22-08, 08:52
Septic have John or Jason mail you a AR10 srping for the AR15 Timney you were having trouble with on the hard primers. I just installed one im mine and will be testing it out tomotrrow. What type of 5.56 were you having problems with? Im taking some Privy out and im trying to see what else I can dig up without upsetting my ammo balances.

i don't remember which it was. it was either prvi or israeli stuff...

i'm interested in what you find with the spring change. i'll do the same and we can compare notes. it that makes a significant difference it would be worth it. it'll change trigger pull a bit, due to higher drag across other sear break surface, but very damn little.

if you have a trigger pull gage, you might use it before and after to measure the delta weight change. i'll do the same.

great suggestion!

Shihan
03-23-08, 03:23
What did they charge you for the extra hammer spring?

Nothing because im a nice guy and a snappy dresser plus a Timney dealer. They would probably give you the same discount if you were having troubles.

Abraxas
03-23-08, 11:46
Interesting thread:D

Shihan
03-23-08, 14:48
i don't remember which it was. it was either prvi or israeli stuff...

i'm interested in what you find with the spring change. i'll do the same and we can compare notes. it that makes a significant difference it would be worth it. it'll change trigger pull a bit, due to higher drag across other sear break surface, but very damn little.

if you have a trigger pull gage, you might use it before and after to measure the delta weight change. i'll do the same.

great suggestion!


Well it was a good day at the range with no light strikes and being able to laugh at the range commandos decked out in ACU that dont know how to sight in a rifle but are SF Qualified:D
I shot with no problems with the AR10 spring
Privy M193
Win Q3131
BVAC(thw bastard off spring of HSM) 75gr 5.56

If anyone has a few misc rounds of off ball 5.56 that I can buy off of you let me know to test.

Thanks

Severian
03-24-08, 19:58
blank

Shihan
03-25-08, 02:26
Will their AR10 trigger fit correctly in a standard AR15 lower? Or is it different dimensions?

They will fit and function fine.

Severian
03-25-08, 16:20
blank

Shihan
03-27-08, 07:57
I installed my Timney AR15 3 pound trigger last night. Install took only a couple of minutes. The fit and function is excellent in my (stripped) Bushmaster lower. The trigger pull is crisp and consistent, and pretty light. I'm still considering going to a heavier trigger pull, with either the 4# or 4 1/2 lbs AR15 model, or the AR10 model, but I want to shoot this first to see how it is. This rifle isn't quite ready to go shoot yet, but within the next few weeks I plan on testing the trigger reliability using various types of ammo that I would typically encounter, including Prvi Partisan, American Eagle, etc. I also have a few thousand rounds of Georgia Arms "canned heat" left over from several years ago, both in SS109 and M193.

Not to beat a dead horse, but did anyone else here besides septic-tank13 and Shihan have issues with Prvi or other surplus / military ammo, using the stock Timney trigger? I'm just interested in how common this problem is... Timney seems to partially admit that the trigger was not designed to fire military ammo, but they also say it "should" work. Either way I'll probably end up with putting in the AR10 hammer spring for peace of mind, but I first want to do some more testing and perhaps add to the sample of evidence...


My stock Timney fired Privy without issue.

Shihan
03-27-08, 08:02
After some more range time yesterday I encountered no problems with Radway Green witht he new AR10 spring on my Timney AR15 trigger.

So after using
Radway Green
Privy M193
Win Q3131
BVAC(thw bastard off spring of HSM) 75gr 5.56

Im pretty confident that the AR10 soring fixed any issues. BTW the AR10 spring is 20% stronger than the ar15 Timney spring. I would still like to run some Lake City through it if I can find a spare box? As I dont want to open sealed cans and some South African.

Severian
04-05-08, 15:17
blank

Shihan
04-05-08, 23:03
I went to the range today and sighted in my CompM4, and put a few different types of ammo through my new setup with the Timney trigger (stock hammer springs). I shot about 200 rounds, all 55gr FMJ. Some Georgia Arms canned heat, some Federal/American Eagle, but mostly Prvi Partisan.

I did experience a single dud or light primer strike with the Prvi Partisan. I couldn't tell which it was, the primer strike looked normal to me, so perhaps it was a dud... not quite sure.

Anyway this was my first time shooting this new upper, so it's time to clean up and I'll put some more rounds through it soon. Other than the dud everything went well.

Did you save the round? If so try it in another gun or try it again with your Timney to find out if it was the round or trigger spring.

Severian
04-06-08, 18:21
blank

septic-tank13
04-07-08, 08:00
sounds promising. i'm testing an Timney AR10 trigger currently. it wouldn't quite drop in the 10 year old AR10 i have, so a slight mod was necessary... more information to follow.

Shihan
04-09-08, 10:47
John gave me one of their AR10 triggers to test. Now i just gotta get the AR10:o

5spdfrk
04-16-08, 10:32
Great info! Very well laid out imo.

BushmasterFanBoy
04-27-08, 21:58
I'm looking at upgrading my trigger from the stock one, I'm thinking I want a single stage, but I'm unsure if any of the ones on the market are reliable enough for a hard use gun. My criteria are as follows: lighter trigger pull (improvement over stock, mine feels >10lb.) goes bang EVERY time (no light primer strikes, etc) good for extended use with no malfunctions (no doubling after a few thousand rounds) and somewhat resistant to accidental/negligent discharge (by this I mean it is heavy enough to keep from firing unintended by snagging on gear/brush).

Any single stage triggers you'd suggest for a hard use gun with the previous criteria met?

Or are the two stage triggers more suited to my needs? :confused:

septic-tank13
04-27-08, 22:04
I'm looking at upgrading my trigger from the stock one, I'm thinking I want a single stage, but I'm unsure if any of the ones on the market are reliable enough for a hard use gun. My criteria are as follows: lighter trigger pull (improvement over stock, mine feels >10lb.) goes bang EVERY time (no light primer strikes, etc) good for extended use with no malfunctions (no doubling after a few thousand rounds) and somewhat resistant to accidental/negligent discharge (by this I mean it is heavy enough to keep from firing unintended by snagging on gear/brush).

Any single stage triggers you'd suggest for a hard use gun with the previous criteria met?

Or are the two stage triggers more suited to my needs? :confused:

two stage is fine. if so, a no BS unit that is uber reliable is the armalite. in single stage a no BS reliable unit for defending my life would either be the alexander arms unit or the accuracy speaks unit. both were simple and operated with full power springs.

just an opinion. there are many that are suitable, but those would be my personal choices.

BushmasterFanBoy
05-11-08, 18:47
two stage is fine. if so, a no BS unit that is uber reliable is the armalite. in single stage a no BS reliable unit for defending my life would either be the alexander arms unit or the accuracy speaks unit. both were simple and operated with full power springs.

just an opinion. there are many that are suitable, but those would be my personal choices.

Septic-tank, I just bought the Alexander Arms unit. Can you tell me a bit more about its reliability, possible issues (on a hard use weapon), and what exactly the allen screws adjust in the trigger assembly?

ETA: What about their shipping time? Did the unit get sent out quickly? I need mine very soon. (Literally yesterday)

septic-tank13
05-12-08, 11:47
Septic-tank, I just bought the Alexander Arms unit. Can you tell me a bit more about its reliability, possible issues (on a hard use weapon), and what exactly the allen screws adjust in the trigger assembly?

ETA: What about their shipping time? Did the unit get sent out quickly? I need mine very soon. (Literally yesterday)


firstly, if you're in a jam and need it right away, i'd be calling them to make sure they know that is the case. being no different than many companies, they source material and services (like hardening) from other vendors and many times they are at the mercy or work ethic of someone else. there is no excuse for late delivery, but frankly we live with it in this industry on a daily basis. i've had back orders from AA, but i've always been in close contact with them and as far as organizations go, they usually are able to give me a "no BS" assessment of when said backorders will ship.

that said, give em' a ring to make sure they know you're in a pinch. communication never hurt a scenario like you describe.

the screws are very simple. take a close look and visualize where they are located. they are on either side of the trigger pin (IE fulcrum) thus they dictate how far you can pull the trigger rearward and how far it will return forward. (think of teeter totter on the playground as the trigger spine and the length of the kids legs as the screws - the longer the legs/screws the less movement is available for teetering/trigger travel...) basically we are talking about engagement and overtravel. reset is another term, but we're talking more in the instance about single stage vs. two stage.

AA's trigger is built barely over center, so you can glide along without feeling much camming at all and essentially leave in a great deal of creep, essentially turning it into a two stage trigger, or simply tighten the screw and adjust the creep out, making it a single stage trigger. the other screw is for overtravel - more or less...

the trigger i used in the test was .050" over center and the standard build Bill sells today is .005" IIRC... you should feel nearly no camming whatsoever. the reliability is top notch IMO. Bill builds his triggers to the most extreme of conditions and to the caters to the warfighter first and foremost. reliability and function are his staples when he designs a piece. buy and operate with confidence. all parts can fail, but this piece isn't one i'd worry about routinely...

he's built a true high performance trigger and those folks who've been around triggers a bit can tell the difference. kudos on your purchase.

if i can help in any way, let me know.

-ST13

mopar
05-20-08, 12:25
How does the LMT 2 stage come up?

septic-tank13
05-20-08, 14:34
How does the LMT 2 stage come up?


LMT as in "lewis machine & tool" ???

mopar
05-21-08, 14:40
LMT as in "lewis machine & tool" ???
Thats it have you used one of Lewis Machine & Tool 2 stage setup?

septic-tank13
05-21-08, 18:44
Thats it have you used one of Lewis Machine & Tool 2 stage setup?

no, i'm trying to make arrangements for his unit as well as the KAC trigger. also, when bill alexander's .050" over center trigger is done, he said he'd send me one.

i'll have an adendum post to my original for all the additions. it'll take some time, but i'll get it all done.

septic-tank13
07-20-08, 21:37
i've got some new triggers in and will be adding an addition to this. i've added a timney AR10 trigger and a few others as well as select fire...

;)

more information to follow. it'll take me a while to finish all this up, but it should be worth it.

-michael

septic-tank13
08-04-08, 21:05
i'm putting the finishing touches on one trigger and will have a few more done shortly.

what happened to the sticky?

b_saan
08-04-08, 22:07
i'm putting the finishing touches on one trigger and will have a few more done shortly.

what happened to the sticky?

Did you edit the 1st post? On a phpBB based forum, if you edit the 1st post in a stickied thread it resets the sticky status.

septic-tank13
08-06-08, 09:03
i might have done just that... i think i changed an error...

if we could tack this one again, i'd be much obliged.

RallySoob
08-06-08, 11:20
I sure do like my RRA 2 stage trigger. Wonder how it stacks up against some of these. I know it is much smoother than the standard trigger. I have never had a reliability issue either.
Too bad about the timney, It sure does look nice. If it were reliable I would have to buy it...

b_saan
08-06-08, 13:10
I sure do like my RRA 2 stage trigger. Wonder how it stacks up against some of these. I know it is much smoother than the standard trigger. I have never had a reliability issue either.
Too bad about the timney, It sure does look nice. If it were reliable I would have to buy it...

Re: the Timney, I have 2 and neither has had any FTF light strikes in thousands of rounds of LC XM193 or Privi 5.56, however if you are concerned about that issue the free or very very inexpensive AR10 replacement spring from Timney will ease your peace of mind.

septic-tank13
08-06-08, 17:23
Re: the Timney, I have 2 and neither has had any FTF light strikes in thousands of rounds of LC XM193 or Privi 5.56, however if you are concerned about that issue the free or very very inexpensive AR10 replacement spring from Timney will ease your peace of mind.

agreed. the AR10 hammer spring will cure any light strikes. if you call them up and order the trigger, ask for that at the time. again, i had trouble UNTIL i made a change to the hammer spring. then all was well.

if you're building 223 or shooting commercial 223 you will be unlikely to see any issues. the timney is a good and solid product. i hope i didn't imply otherwise.

hope this helps.

septic-tank13
09-09-08, 11:16
i'm working on the two Geissele units Bill provided currently. a standard trigger and a select fire model are being run through the paces currently. the LMT is being included this time as well. jewell isn't interested as well as KAC and jard. if anyone has one they'd allow me to borrow i'd gladly use it and return it with only the wear i apply...

i have both small and large pin lowers built and ready to go. anyhelp you guys might be able to provide would be super.

thanks,



michael

5pins
09-09-08, 16:04
If anyone is looking for a match trigger for a Colt large pin, Midway has the Jewell on closeout for $95.
http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/brandlisting?brandid=1528

wild_wild_wes
10-05-08, 16:24
I would like to see a breakdown of each trigger to see which ones were surface hardened, which were through hardened, which were chromed, etc.

ra2bach
10-22-08, 01:38
I may be wrong about this, and please let me know if I am but I thought I heard somewhere that the Rock River 2-stage NM triggers were not reliable unless modified. WOA is often mentioned as who does this service on RR triggers.

any truth to this?

jchen012
10-22-08, 01:54
Can you also do a review of the CMMG 2 stage trigger? Thanks in advance!

septic-tank13
10-29-08, 18:07
Can you also do a review of the CMMG 2 stage trigger? Thanks in advance!

yes. we are working it out currently, but i believe it will be added in the update i'm performing now.

septic-tank13
10-29-08, 18:14
I may be wrong about this, and please let me know if I am but I thought I heard somewhere that the Rock River 2-stage NM triggers were not reliable unless modified. WOA is often mentioned as who does this service on RR triggers.

any truth to this?

"not reliable" can take on many meanings from many sources. in my opinion, with the RRA varmint trigger and some, not all, the NM triggers they build the spring forces exerted on the hammer is a bit light. thus, there can be a situation where you have dimpled primers when using arsenal grade primers and/or hard cups.

there is a trade off in everthing. if you opt to build an inexpensive trigger at a light weight, it is natural to lighten the hammer spring. this and trigger geometry (in relationship to the hammer and sear) make the difference. there are others that do it without lightening the hammer spring but the process is more involved and thus the cost of manufacture generally goes up. no free lunch...

;)

or at least rarely...

septic-tank13
10-29-08, 18:17
I would like to see a breakdown of each trigger to see which ones were surface hardened, which were through hardened, which were chromed, etc.


i'll have to go through and come up with a list of "features" and provide it. all i know of are surface hardened. a few are through hardened, and a couple are through hardened and chromed. this is reflected in their cost and durability/reliability.

i'll have to think on that a while and come up with a list of relevant items, but i think i can do that without issue.

toddackerman
12-07-08, 00:54
I got an LMT Defender Lower with SOPMOD Stock and 2 stage trigger that I;m really liking. The takeup is smooth, once it contacts the sear, it breaks at 3 lbs. and very crisp. Absolutely no issues in 1000 rounds (which i know is not a lot.)

Looter Shooter
12-07-08, 18:27
Wow, great post and lots of good information, thank you septic!

I've always had USGI trigger groups on my AR's but last weekend I shot a buddies AR with 2 stage trigger and I must say it felt so much better. I really noticed it when I went back to using my AR.

Which trigger group do you think would be good for a plinker/home defense weapon? I like to double tap a lot and after about 10-15 mags of double taping my trigger finger is about ready to go on strike. I was thinking a good 2 stage should help this.

Also I've been trying to shoulder bump my AR but I don't think the USGI trigger group is helping much. Would a good 2 stage make that easier?

HisDivineShadow
02-19-09, 00:06
I followed a guide I found on arfcom to make this:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z12/Skuggish/dremel.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z12/Skuggish/smide2.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z12/Skuggish/trigger2.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z12/Skuggish/trigger3.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z12/Skuggish/trigger5.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z12/Skuggish/Trigger6.jpg

Pretty easy, lightened the hammer, polished the surfaces with white rogue and then installed JP Enterprises reduced power spring kit. All in all this mod cost me about 10 bucks. The trigger was much improved compared to factory and I had only one click out of a 100 test fires, which is reasily ammo related.

It'll be interesting to see how it performs with a 5.56 upper soon.

28_days
02-27-09, 19:01
I followed a guide I found on arfcom to make this:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z12/Skuggish/trigger2.jpg


Looks nice! That's exactly what Bill Springfield does for $40 (great turnaround time might I add).

What's the advantage of the reduced power trigger set?

HisDivineShadow
02-28-09, 02:17
Without them I wouldn't get a lighter trigger using this mod. Reduced power springs makes the trigger lighter and on my .22 spikes it also makes it easier to cycle the bolt which means more reliability without having to cut coils of the recoil spring.

However the weaker springs will not propell the hammer as fast which can lead to light primer strikes, which is why I got rid of the extra weight there to make it snappier. I also read somewhere else that a lightened hammer has other advantages, it was rather technical though so I can't repeat it now without having read it again.

FMF_Doc
06-07-09, 19:03
very interesting read, I have been using the standard military triggers for all of my M16/AR15 shooting years and haven't really expiremented with other setups.

I have been considering a new drop trigger for my personal guns and this has definitely given me some food for thought.

Great article.

QuietShootr
06-07-09, 21:48
PACT, Inc.'s new AR Gold trigger is really something, and I'm not a match trigger guy. Disclosure: I am a good friend of Ronin Colman, the owner of PACT and the brain behind the trigger.

After hearing me bitch about match triggers and the fools who use them for a year or two, Ronin sent me a couple of the AR Gold units to try out. I prepared to be unimpressed. I am not to the point of calling for my serving of crow yet, but I have put the chef on standby to keep it in the kitchen.

The AR Gold unit has some very interesting features that are worth consideration. First, the basic construction.

The modular housing is licensed from Chip McCormick, and is CNCd and milspec hard anodized..
The parts are made of forged S7 tool steel, wire EDM cut to shape and specially heat-treated for durability.


http://www.americantriggertech.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=57

In addition to its top-shelf materials and build quality, the Gold has a totally new sear/hammer arrangement. The primary sear is located at the rear of the housing and trips the hammer approximately where an auto sear would be in a select-fire weapon. This greatly decreases pressure on the primary sear compared to putting the sear surface down near the pivot point of the hammer as with a conventional arrangement. As a result, the sear engagement can be carefully tuned to produce a fantastic, SAFE pull.

As a backup to the primary sear, the safety sear is a catch located at the hammer nose, that works approximately the same way as a standard AR15 trigger. If the hammer should somehow jump the safety sear, it would come to rest on the safety sear, preventing further forward motion AND enabling the weapon to still be fired normally, just with a trigger pull that is more like a stock trigger. In the still unlikelier event of primary sear failure, the second safety sear will allow your weapon to function perfectly normally (albeit with a heavier pull) until you can service it. Also, this functions as a drop safety - if the weapon were to be struck a heavy enough blow to dislodge the primary sear, the hammer would simply fall to the safety sear, and still be usable.

The other thing that is very interesting about the Gold is this: When the safety is engaged, not only is the hammer locked, but it is actually lifted a few thousandths off of the primary sear and locked in that position. If the weapon were to be very roughly dropped or abused with the safety on, when the user picked up the weapon and flipped the safety to fire, they would find the same fantastic pull they had to begin with...because the act of flipping off the safety lowers the hammer back onto the primary sear.

It's neater than hell. I'm ALMOST (ALMOST, mind you...I'm still a skeptic until I can't be a skeptic any more) a believer.

This is a quote from the ATC website:

We have a fixed weight trigger in the pipeline, which trades adjustability for being “tamper proof.” This trigger will be set to a weight optimized for use with gloves.



"Spent a week with the AR Gold comp trigger in a Bushmaster M4 here at Blackwater USA and it is now in my own personal weapon. All I can say is."WOW". If you don't have one, get one, no, get two. My name is Hershel Davis and I approve this message.

Hershel Davis
Corporate Master Chief Blackwater USA
Command Master Chief of SEALS (Retired)"

bobafett
08-20-09, 10:06
Using JP Yellow springs, any experience with light strikes?

9Y10C
09-04-09, 19:48
Just installed the Geiselle SSA in my Colt. My initial reaction is: WOW! Nothing short of amazing in feel. Two stage and non-adjustable. The take-up, release and recock is super smooth and crisp. Not cheap, but highly recommend the change.

colek50
09-10-09, 05:31
mates, im from the philippines and i own an elisco lower m4... yeah its quite old and i want to replace my stock trigger system... my m4 has a semi and full auto... thanks

wild_wild_wes
09-13-09, 20:23
mates, im from the philippines and i own an elisco lower m4... yeah its quite old and i want to replace my stock trigger system... my m4 has a semi and full auto... thanks

Geiselle SSF is what you need, if you have select-fire.

Bushytale
09-18-09, 12:45
Just got my first and second Geissele SSA triggers after many months of patient waiting. I ordered 2 originally from the supposed best source for the new SSA and the customer service was, well, non existant. After months of no communication and finally an email to ask for my CC info, still nothing. I finally decided it was a lost cause and placed an order with Creedmore Sports. They actually answer their phone and are very happy to keep you updated and apologetic for delays that are not even caused by them. Gina was very helpful and after a few short months I got the email I was waiting for, they are in and shipping. They came after about a week.
I installed the first one last night. Looking it over you can see why they are considered tough enough for self defense and combat. The big difference is in the disconnector pivoting on the trigger pin instead of a small seperate pin and of course no adjustment screws. It comes with a slave pin, to make installing the trigger and disconnector simple, a set of slightly oversize hammer/trigger pivot pins, a full power hammer and trigger spring and a small container of Mobil #28 synthetic aviation grease. The installation was straight forward and the safety check was good to go. Result is a very distinct two stage with a crisp let off and no perceived over-travel. My educated finger says about 4.5 lbs. It feels very similar to my tuned M1-A trigger and for me that is outstanding!
If you have been on the fence about this trigger get it. It's worth the asking price.

:D:D:D:D

The_War_Wagon
09-22-09, 10:47
Following The Katar's advice (to replace a Timney trigger in my home defense carbine), when my Timney trigger seized (hammer wouldn't drop) on me at the range a couple weeks ago, I replaced it with with an RRA 2-stage.

I WILL give some props to Timney's customer service, though - they replaced it with a brand new identical trigger - new in the package - no questions asked, and FREE OF CHARGE! It was their Gen.I trigger that failed, and I got their Gen.II trigger out of the deal! :cool:

I'll put the Timney aside as an "emergency spare," but the RRA 2-stage is veddy, veddy nice, now installed in my POF.

ProPilot
10-26-09, 18:00
Re: the Timney, I have 2 and neither has had any FTF light strikes in thousands of rounds of LC XM193 or Privi 5.56, however if you are concerned about that issue the free or very very inexpensive AR10 replacement spring from Timney will ease your peace of mind.

ARRRGH! I just bought and installed a Timney AR-15 trigger and did not know any of this! Wish I'd known before I bought and installed! I have a ton of LC XM193 and that's all I shoot. Hopefully I will have the same luck that you have had with the XM193.

On another note I should first say that I'm not very metalworking-minded and the "drop-in" nature of the Timney appealed to me. Two things however caused me to be forever wary of the pastoral "drop-in" term.

Getting the two screws in afterwards was not the easiest trick that I've ever pulled. Contrary to the website instructions, the extensions of the springs lie directly across the teeny holes into which you are to place the tiny screws. Therefore you must use "lord knows what type of tool" to spread the extensions away and then set and rotate the screws.

All of this would have been much easier had I:

-Used a magnetized teeny hex wrench as opposed to the one supplied, or
-Enlisted gravity as my friend and performed the entire operation upside down

'Course I'm a moron but it was a definite three handed, three-quarter hour operation for me. BUT WAIT, there's more!

When I went to replace the trigger group retaining pins, the front slid in and out without resistance and the rear, dangerously loose.

Solution? Small JP Anti-Walk pins from Brownell's, of course. Hey, while I'm at it, a cool new Mag-Pul MOE trigger guard. Drop-in too!

Well, the anti-walk pins are screwed together with the supplied 4-40 screws. (What kind of tool is required for a 4-40, I asked me self?) Further the instructions stated that you should use 242 Loctite (blue) and you might need a 5/32" carbide reamer, in addition to your 1/8" punch of course.

Luckily I did not end up needing the reamer because when I asked the hardware store guy for one, his eyes glazed over as if I was asking to be directed to the aisle that had the MRI machines.

But all of it went together smoothly with the aid of the wife's magnifying glass. By the way, 4-40 screws are manipulated with any darn .05" hex that you have lying around.

As for the MOE trigger guard, well that was easy. Simply use the 1/8" punch to release and swing it down from the forward portion of the trigger guard. It releases? After about fifteen minutes it will.

Next, take your 1/8" punch and dislodge the rear retaining pin but "use care not to damage the lower receiver". Damage? Oh, yeah. That pin was put in on a one way trip. I smacked that thing harder than good sense would allow. That and a goodly amount of Break Free broke it free.

Drop in? Nuthin' is.

BLACK LION
11-04-09, 13:14
So.... AR Gold or Geiselle SSA ?????

singlestack
12-07-09, 05:03
Have you got the chance to test the new Wilson Combat triggers? Thanks.

HisDivineShadow
12-07-09, 06:25
How do two stage triggers like the SSA work for rapid 3-gun shooting? Would a single stage like a timney work better?

smokenssz
12-15-09, 11:24
Have you got the chance to test the new Wilson Combat triggers? Thanks.

The Wilson trigger looks identical to the Timney but its like 100 more.

BLACK LION
12-15-09, 11:31
I was able to get my hands on a Geiselle SSA trigger and I am completely sold on these units.

wilsoncombatrep
12-24-09, 09:11
smokenssz,
The Timney trigger, and our trigger are COMPLETELY different on the inside. The only things in common are that they are triggers for AR15's, and that they have modular, drop in construction. If you have any questions regarding our triggers, just let me know. If the OP wants this discussion in his thread, fine, if not, please ask in the Wilson Combat forum.

smokenssz
12-24-09, 15:00
smokenssz,
The Timney trigger, and our trigger are COMPLETELY different on the inside. The only things in common are that they are triggers for AR15's, and that they have modular, drop in construction. If you have any questions regarding our triggers, just let me know. If the OP wants this discussion in his thread, fine, if not, please ask in the Wilson Combat forum.

I'm not trying to step on anyones feet I was stating the obvious. Wilson triggers were brought up in this discussion "Have you got the chance to test the new Wilson Combat triggers? Thanks." In my statement I was not saying Wilson triggers are a bad product however it is more expensive. I'm always up for learning new information so if someone can enlighten me on the internal differences on the Wilson triggers great. I'm always opened to hear their good or bad experiences with them. I'm all for getting good knowledge.

BRUTL TA
01-22-10, 19:53
I just recieved my new Timney AR-15 trigger this morning. For the record, I have never taken a lower apart. It took me a total of 20 mins to install. I figured out a trick to handle installing the 2 extra screws. I took a pair of needle nose and pulled the spring wire up and onto the hammer. My initial impression is very posotive. There is virtually 0 take up and the trigger breaks very cleanly around 3lbs. It also has a very short and crisp reset. It is a night and day difference between it and the stocker. I will post after a trip to the range.

r42david
02-27-10, 11:42
Okay, once again I'm so confused... :confused::D

SecretNY
03-01-10, 05:53
Installed the Wilson trigger, took all of five minutes. This is the most solid trigger I've ever felt. The break is so clean I couldn't believe it. I also liked the way the trigger sits in the trigger guard, plenty of room for a gloved finger. Did I say how this trigger has no wobble either.

I can't wait to fire it...

ccoker
03-01-10, 08:53
the Wilson single stage is perfect.
I am way picky, and there is nothing that needs to be changed/tweaked, etc..

I have a Jewell in my LTR and this is every bit as nice.
Solid, zero creep, zero overtravel, instant reset.

BLACK LION
03-01-10, 13:10
If I had the extra coin to drop on a "buy once, cry once" trigger I wouldnt mind a WC TTU...
For now, I am perfectly content with my Geissele SSA...

r42david
03-02-10, 08:41
After a lot debate,, decided on the Geissele SSA... appreciate all the input... I'll let you know... If i don't like it, I'll sell it and try the Wilson...:rolleyes:

BLACK LION
03-02-10, 16:22
After a lot debate,, decided on the Geissele SSA... appreciate all the input... I'll let you know... If i don't like it, I'll sell it and try the Wilson...:rolleyes:

I am willing to bet you WILL be pleased!

oalocke
03-21-10, 10:44
I got an LMT Defender Lower with SOPMOD Stock and 2 stage trigger that I;m really liking. The takeup is smooth, once it contacts the sear, it breaks at 3 lbs. and very crisp. Absolutely no issues in 1000 rounds (which i know is not a lot.)

I've got the same, with probably close to 2000 rounds through. Again, not a lot, but now a sample of two :-).

Mike from Texas
03-22-10, 19:38
Any feedback on the AR Gold triggers?

saryan
03-31-10, 17:50
Im switching to a single stage trigger. I am going to get the Wilson TTU and I will post my review after I get some range time with it. I am putting a Geissele High Speed up for sale if anyone is interested.

Showbart
04-05-10, 17:45
If it ain't a match rifle then milspec single stage.

bones
04-12-10, 11:23
I perfer Single stage triggers -once I get the cash together I,m getting the Wilson set up.

Merle
04-14-10, 23:10
I just picked up a KAC 2 stage from a buddy for $150 and he even threw in a KAC Hand Stop. I think I made out better than he did. I'm gonna use it in my next build so it may be a while before I get to see how smooth it operates.

ALCOAR
04-21-10, 13:52
I can saw after getting my first 2 SSA's, the only other unit i will own is maybe the DMR. These are great units, fit and finish is perfect. Improved this shooters game big time:)
http://i47.tinypic.com/2q0j3vt.jpg

rman43
04-30-10, 12:51
I have 3 lowers - an RRA, a Spike's and a DPMS. These were all complete lowers when I bought them. All except the RRA had mil-spec triggers. It had an RRA NM 2-stage and I really liked it.

I decided I needed a good trigger for the Spike's lower so I bought a Timney 3# solid trigger. It was a snap to install. (I'd never swapped a trigger before.) I really liked the trigger, but I was trying to use it with a dedicated .22 LR upper and it just wouldn't function - doubles, light primer strikes, failure to reset the hammer, etc.

Someone suggested a Geissele SSA so I ordered one. This one was harder to put in of course. I tested it with the .22 upper and it was very little better than the Timney.

I ordered another RRA NM 2-stage and it worked perfectly. I sold the Timney, but had a left-over Geissele SSA. I installed it in my DPMS lower with a .223 upper last night. I haven't had a chance to test fire it, but it is definitely an improvement over the stock mil-spec trigger.

This isn't intended to be a slam at any of the trigger manufacturers. I'm sure any of these triggers would have worked well with centerfire uppers - my .22 uppers just didn't like some of them. I still like the RRA 2-stage the best of all I have tried. The first stage is light, as is the second stage and they have a nice, crisp, creep-free let off. The Geissele SSA is also nice, but both stages are noticeably heaver than the RRAs. I guess it's pretty much a matter of personal preference, but for about $110, I'll take the RRA anytime.

wild_wild_wes
05-07-10, 04:26
I had my gunsmith install my Geissele DMR and SSA. I picked up another SSA; I have built AR lowers myself in the past, so is the SSA a "drop-in" fit like an OEM trigger that I could put in without issues, or should I have my gunsmith install?

rljatl
05-07-10, 07:20
The SSA is easier to install than the DMR. You can do it yourself. The slave pin makes it a snap.

rman43
05-07-10, 09:13
I had my gunsmith install my Geissele DMR and SSA. I picked up another SSA; I have built AR lowers myself in the past, so is the SSA a "drop-in" fit like an OEM trigger that I could put in without issues, or should I have my gunsmith install?

If I can do it, anyone can!:)

Steve
06-17-10, 21:56
Wait till you see the new Geissele trigger coming out soon..I have been running run for about 3 weeks now can you say 1911 in an AR:D

smooth clean and positive.

Bill nailed this thing

nickdrak
06-17-10, 22:00
Wait till you see the new Geissele trigger coming out soon..I have been running run for about 3 weeks now can you say 1911 in an AR:D

smooth clean and positive.

Bill nailed this thing


Single stage? Non adjustable?

Steve
06-17-10, 23:01
Maybe........:p

We should have some video after class this weekend.

nickdrak
06-17-10, 23:05
Maybe........:p

We should have some video after class this weekend.

You suck!!!:p

stifled
08-13-10, 10:23
I decided on a Geissele Super Semi after reading this thread a couple months ago for an AR-15 I recently put together for more accuracy. After using it for a couple of weeks, I have to say I'm extremely satisfied with the trigger.

The lack of adjustments appeals to me, since I wanted something I could just drop into the lower and then put the thing back together and have a nicer-than-stock trigger. The Geissele Super Semi is far superior to the stock trigger.

Thank you for all the information, it helped me narrow my options down considerably without local people who get into AR-15s to the extent the users here do. Having to buy a product without first being able to use it makes me nervous, but I'm glad I did!

cebuboy
08-17-10, 08:00
Any information regarding Geissele's Super 3-Gun Trigger?

neo9710
08-31-10, 21:22
Wait till you see the new Geissele trigger coming out soon..I have been running run for about 3 weeks now can you say 1911 in an AR:D

smooth clean and positive.

Bill nailed this thing

Still waiting...

Steve
08-31-10, 21:56
The super 3G is what I was talking about

I took 8 more in today on my personal guns they are still by far the best triggers i have run to date

contact them direct for them or Bravo company

kartoffel
09-06-10, 19:09
Can't say that I prefer a single stage trigger on a rifle, but any trigger made by Geissele is going to be top tier.

amac
09-16-10, 12:50
First, this is a great thread. Thanks for all ur research and info. As a result, I'd like to move beyond my factory trigger.

I've been shooting ARs for a short time - 2 yrs - but shoot fairly regularly. I am civilian use, have been paticipating in 3gun events, have training set up and will probably put 3 - 4,000 rounds per year. I'm no gunsmith, so a drop in or minimal frustration install is preferred. You mentioned "yellow springs" as a low cost upgrade to any factory trigger. What would you recommend as a good two stage for under $100? Or, am I better off spending the money and doing it once? Thanks again for the review and your feedback.

NavyDavy55
09-18-10, 15:44
This has to be the BEST writeup about triggers that I've ever read.

The only aftermarket trigger I've ever used is the Guyslee :smile: trigger and I love it!

Eric
09-19-10, 23:02
What would you recommend as a good two stage for under $100?
One trigger you don't hear much about is the Armalite Tactical Two Stage, MSRP $97. (http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10309000&ReturnUrl=categories2.aspx?Category=dfc0f777-5c39-4edf-bb6b-90009c5adc2c) Don't get me wrong, it's no SSA, but if you're set on the $100 limit it is worth a look.

doramide7
09-30-10, 19:08
Very nice writeup!

Question on the Armalite, what is the span of weight ranges achievable given you can adjust the diconnector spring to three different settings? And what stage does that affect, just the first?

understood, septic - makes sense and thanks for the response.

dennyAC170
10-25-10, 01:09
Have you tested the Jewell 2-stage ?

ASH556
10-26-10, 13:07
I don't see any mention here of the KAC two-stage. Any thoughts/experience with it, especially as compared to the Geissele?

blue5t1050
04-22-12, 17:26
The DMR is amazing!

johnnyrebel87
08-29-13, 09:57
Now that is a cool thread.

jonmar
11-10-13, 14:20
so I buy a LMT Standard, while I do my 10 day wait period, I order a Timney online. I think Ill wait to install darn thanks for the great info on this site

Tikkatac
02-01-16, 21:16
Great write up and answers a lot of questions I had.

officerX
02-02-16, 11:48
Sorry to bump an old thread here, but I wasn't sure where to ask and I didn't want to start a new thread.

I'm considering buying a LaRue MBT trigger and wondered if anyone has any experience with them.