M&P versus P99 [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

maitresaman

03-03-08, 12:31

Ed L.

03-03-08, 12:38

I would suggest if possible that you find a range that has both guns available for rental and try them out before buying. Sorry I can't be more help, but buying guns is a personal decision and different people have different preferences.

Sam

03-03-08, 12:41

A friend of mine carries a P99 because his department issued the guns. He is a very knowledgeable shooter and is competent with most handguns. He does not like the P99 one bit. He prefer the M&P or Glock over the P99. Maybe he'll chime in when he sees this thread.

rayray

03-03-08, 12:48

I own a Walther P99 .40 cal. I love it, it is a very good firearm. On the other hand I have fired a M&P .45 and it is an Awesome gun. In fact I will be purchasing an M&P .45 here in a few months. I would flip a coin, they are both great guns.:)

maitresaman

03-03-08, 12:51

The problem is finding a range that has the P99 or a try before you buy shop around me.

I have shot the M&P in both the 9 and the 40 and really like the way it shoots, but since the P99 was what feels better in my hand I want to be sure.

bspring

03-03-08, 13:16

Try Gilberts Small Arms in NOVA, they should rent and has an indoor range. I like the P99 alot, there are a few variations of it to choose from.

Bill

caporider

03-03-08, 14:19

I need some help. I'm looking to buy a gun for the first time. I've done my research and have narrowed it down to the S&W M&P and the Walther P99. The P99 feels better in my hand but I have not found a place to shoot it. I have tried the M&P in both the 9 and the 40. I like it but still am not sure.

How do they compare (firing, accuracy, maintenance, reliability)?

Which is better?

Any ideas on where to find the P99 for rental in the DC metro area?

Which version of the P99 are you comparing to the M&P? QA? AS? DAO? The trigger will be markedly different for each variant. Also, the date code will determine if you are looking at a Gen I or Gen II frame (Gen II has the standard light rail). The later Gen II frames also feature the extended lever-type mag release along the bottom of the trigger guard.

And when you say the P99 feels better in your hand, what exactly do you mean? It allows you to execute the trigger press with less movement of the gun? It allows you to get your grip higher up? It slips less? What kinds of things are you doing with the gun when you say it feels better in your hand? Just holding it? Trigger press? Mag release manipulation?

Seems like a lot of questions, but I think you do need to roll through a bunch of manipulations/trigger pulls to see which one actually works best for you, especially if this is going to be a carry or home defense piece. I think you're on the right track with the rental. There are guys on this forum that are way better qualified than I am to give you a list of the things you might want to check out as you shoot your rental.

I have owned both pistols and from strictly a shooter's point of view, the M&P ergos win out FOR ME across the range of things you need to be able to do with a pistol. You'll also find way more factory and aftermarket parts and accessories for the M&P.

That having been said, I just bought a P99QA 9x19mm to add to my collection, just because I have a soft spot for the P99... The M&P, however, will remain my go-to pistol.

Charles

03-03-08, 14:51

maitresaman

03-03-08, 14:55

Which version of the P99 are you comparing to the M&P? QA? AS? DAO? The trigger will be markedly different for each variant. Also, the date code will determine if you are looking at a Gen I or Gen II frame (Gen II has the standard light rail). The later Gen II frames also feature the extended lever-type mag release along the bottom of the trigger guard.

And when you say the P99 feels better in your hand, what exactly do you mean? It allows you to execute the trigger press with less movement of the gun? It allows you to get your grip higher up? It slips less? What kinds of things are you doing with the gun when you say it feels better in your hand? Just holding it? Trigger press? Mag release manipulation?

Seems like a lot of questions, but I think you do need to roll through a bunch of manipulations/trigger pulls to see which one actually works best for you, especially if this is going to be a carry or home defense piece. I think you're on the right track with the rental. There are guys on this forum that are way better qualified than I am to give you a list of the things you might want to check out as you shoot your rental.

I have owned both pistols and from strictly a shooter's point of view, the M&P ergos win out FOR ME across the range of things you need to be able to do with a pistol. You'll also find way more factory and aftermarket parts and accessories for the M&P.

That having been said, I just bought a P99QA 9x19mm to add to my collection, just because I have a soft spot for the P99... The M&P, however, will remain my go-to pistol.

I am looking at the AS. The gun fits in my hand, I can grip it better, the trigger, less movement, etc. Problem is I've only dry fired the gun and have checked every range in VA, DC, MD, and WV and none have the P99 for rental.

kaltblitz

03-03-08, 16:27

My department used to issue the SW99 in 40 S&W. We ended up having to take full advantage of S&W's excellent warranty far too often.

Of the original 200 guns purchased, all were sent back. Out of the next batch of 200, at least 80 guns were sent back. It's my belief that the only reason the entire batch wasn't sent back to the factory was because over half of my department never fired a single round through the issued guns (most guys carry personally owned guns). The main issues were failures in the trigger group and parts being machined out of spec.

S&W recently allowed our department to trade ALL the SW99's for M&P's at no cost. So far there have not been any issues at all with the new M&P's.

I have heard from several reliable sources that the German-made P99's chambered in 9mm are excellent handguns. I have no reason to doubt this. The same cannot be said about the S&W made variants.

TBomb

03-03-08, 16:39

I haven't fired a Walther so I can't say anything about it, but I love my M&P .40. I have had it about a year now and have never had a single issue with it. I've put about 750 rounds of WWB through it with no hiccups at all. I love the ergonomics, and the interchangeable backstraps help with that a lot. I think if you go with the M&P you will not be disappointed in the least.

Dave G

03-03-08, 17:14

I carried one for a couple years and was fairly happy with it. It was comfy, trigger is extremely short on SA, concealed well...etc. Couple things that bother people or that bothered me.

-Mag release- it is very hard/impossible to manipulate with gloves on...if is however very lefty friendly. When I carred on my left side with other guns I sometimes bumped the mag release...now many of the polymers are coming totally ambi

-Decock- I always had a big problem with having to use 2 hands to decock. Maybe some people with bear paws can reach it, I can't

-Availability- Maybe not so much now as the gun has gotten popular, but when I had one it was a pain in the rear trying to find holsters and mags...not to mention sights...and the rail they put on the first gen...WTF was that all about?

I will tell you that the SW99 and the P99 are not that same guns. My P99 ran very well and with the 9mm anyway I have never heard of anything major at all. The SW series...plenty.

It's a fine blaster, but for a "combat" gun I think there are better options.

Dave G

03-03-08, 17:15

Also, the price on the P99 has gotten out of control.

crowkiller

03-03-08, 17:16

Both good guns just get the one that "fits" you the best. FYI the Walther light rail is not the standard rail as found on the Glock, XD and HK P2000 it is a "special" S&W light rail a light made for the standard rail will not fit. Streamlight made a special S&W key that you can use to replace the standard key on the TLR so it will fit on the P99 and S&W autos.

TBomb

03-03-08, 17:21

John_Wayne777

03-03-08, 17:22

I
How do they compare (firing, accuracy, maintenance, reliability)?

Which is better?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0043.jpg

As you can see, I own both. My P99 is an all German made 9mm gun with the standard DA/SA striker assembly in it.

My opinion of the P99 is VERY high. It is a very good little pistol that has been very reliable for me. In SA mode it has an excellent trigger, better than the trigger on any other striker fired pistol I have ever tried. The sights are very good and align quickly. It fits my big mitts without giving me slide bite.

Downsides are that the hump in the middle of the trigger guard is a friggin' stupid idea that tends to pinch the finger a bit during long range sessions. I've done some bubba-izing with a file to reduce the effect somewhat. Newer revisions thankfully leave that feature out, but I don't have much experience with them.

Now as to the comparison with the M&P, if I were to buy all over again I would go with the M&P for a few reasons:

1. The M&P fits my hand better than the P99.
2. Parts and armorer support are more readily available for the M&P.
3. Holsters are more readily available for the M&P.
4. CT grips are available for the M&P....to my knowledge that isn't true for the P99.
5. Hicap magazines are more readily available for the M&P.
6. The M&P's slide lock works more reliably in my hands than the P99's slide lock.
7. The P99 doesn't have the widespread adoption that the M&P has (in the US) and thus isn't going to have the same level of large-scale feedback that the M&P is going to have.
8. I believe the M&P can be had for less money, especially with the rebates currently offered.

The downside to the M&P is that their trigger out of the box kind of sucks. It improves with time and wear or a trip to Mr. Bowie or Mr. Burwell, but it isn't strictly necessary. I can shoot the stock M&P trigger well enough to get by.

Having said all of that, I don't want to leave the impression that the P99 is markedly inferior....I absolutely adore my little P99. It's been a superb little pistol and it is insanely accurate. To give you some idea, I actually used the pistol to shoot some clay targets out of the air that were launched by one of those spring-loaded launchers. The clay was about 35 yards away when I broke the trigger, and the 124 grain Speer +P Gold Dot center-punched the clay, smashing it into several large pieces.

Yes, there were witnesses. :D The people watching thought I was a god, so naturally I holstered up and stopped shooting. ;)

...that being said, it's a sample of 1 and here at M4C we try to hold things to a higher standard than that.

As to which is better *for you* that's something only you can answer. I would definitely encourage you to get some trigger time on each and see which you seem to be the best with naturally. As I said, I'd lean to the M&P in your position simply for the known quantity factor. The P99 is an older design but there's already a MUCH larger knowledgebase out there about the M&P than there is about the P99.

Edit -- I have some comparison pictures I took with the P99 and M&P a while back...I'll post them later.

John_Wayne777

03-03-08, 18:18

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0058.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0055.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0054.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0049.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0048.jpg

The M&P's internals appear to be more robust than the internals on my P99, especially the frame rails. Whether or not that translates into a more durable design or not I can't tell you.

crowkiller

03-03-08, 19:31

Just to clarify, the M&P's rail is a standard rail, as far as I know.

M&P= Picatinny Rail
Glock= Standard Rail
P99 after '04 and other S&W autos= S&W's specific Rail

Looey

03-03-08, 20:06

I will say go witht the M&P over the P99, if that is what your two choices. the M&P shoots better, also if you can get used to the mag release lever. the P99 feels slugish when you shoot it. I shoot a glock but between those too i would definetly say M&P.
if you are going to go with the P99 because it feels better in the hand, go with the AS model versus the QA.
and yes i have shot both 9mm and 40s&w on both models, the M&P is a better gun, hands down. they just need to get better mags

ToddG

03-03-08, 22:23

The M&P is a better gun in all aspects. If you do any serious shooting you will regret buying the P99.

It doesn't really matter which one "feels" better at this point. Objectively look at the merits of each and pick the better one....

+1 on all counts. While I'm sure the P99 has its fans, it was never the gun the M&P is. The P99 is, for lack of a better term, quirky. The M&P, on the other hand, is essentially a product-improved version of the Glock (a description which tends to be unpopular with many of the fans from both camps).

NCPatrolAR

03-03-08, 23:00

We were issued the SW99 (.40) here for several years and I found the gun to be a total POS. We had countless problems with the gun (guns failing to switch from Da to SA, sear housing breakages that rendered the guns inop, etc) which led to us canning it and going to the MP40. On a personal level, I didnt like: the extended slide stop (my thumbs would ride it and I'd never get a slide lock), the mag release lever (mag ejection was never positive and the action felt unatural. We also had an issue in an OIS with an officer that was unable to drop an expended mag due to muscle memory being established on push button mag releases), extremely long and heavy DA trigger pull, and the red dot on the striker being in motion (I would catch my being pulled to it). The SW-spec rail also presented a slight problem in getting pistol lights that would fit it.

When it comes to the M&P; it is easily my pistol of choice at this point. It fits my hand better, has better controls, conventional rail, etc. I also tend to shoot the M&P better (though I'm far from a great shooter).

John_Wayne777

03-04-08, 07:26

We were issued the SW99 (.40) here for several years and I found the gun to be a total POS.

The SW99 is quite possibly the worst thing S&W has ever produced. Every agency I know of that adopted it had serious issues with the weapon. The NJSP actually selected the SW99 as a replacement for their P7M8 and P7M13 sidearms (which most troopers loved) and had nothing but problems, firstly because of some rather silly specifications laid out by NJSP, but after all of that was sorted out the basic quality of the weapon was just not good enough for anyone to bet their life on. The NJSP ditched the weapons entirely and bought Sig pistols.

This is why the all German made Walther P99s were so carefully sought out. They didn't seem to exhibit the same quality issues that the S&W made guns (S&W also, I believe, made at least some of the components for the P99 for a time). Of course, they also weren't adopted by any agency in any significant numbers by any LE agency in the US to my knowledge, so they haven't been beaten on as heavily as the M&P line has.

As I mentioned before, that's a pretty strong argument in favor of selecting the M&P in my opinion.....

TY44934

03-05-08, 11:00

The SW99 is quite possibly the worst thing S&W has ever produced. Every agency I know of that adopted it had serious issues with the weapon. . . .This is why the all German made Walther P99s were so carefully sought out. . . . As I mentioned before, that's a pretty strong argument in favor of selecting the M&P in my opinion.....

Maitresaman: you mention Maryland/Virginia/West Virginia. Looey and Todd G. are two of the top shooters in your area and both have extensive training/shooting backgrounds. These two guys are industry professionals and you would be wise to listen to the people who know.

If you decide to buy the Walther anyway, please listen to John_Wayne777 and at the very least, buy the GERMAN made gun and not the crappy copy pawned off on us as the "S&W99."

Before you ask: "isn't the M&P also a Smith product?" - keep in mind that some S&W products are known lemmons - including the S&W "Sigma" (aka "smegma" aka "stigma"). With their M&P however, Smith hit a grand slam and in the 2 years since it came out, the hard use it has seen proves that the M&P is a winner.

If you have not found a rental range in Maryland to try the S&W 99 - it is likely because the guns are all out for repair - if they even bother to offer a rental on a gun with such a poor repair history.

Regards,

D. Johnson

Failure2Stop

03-05-08, 11:21

I have just shot the M&P in both .45 and 9mm, and a friend's Walther 99.

The M&Ps are simply fantastic. I would choose the M&P 9 over my G19.

I cannot say the same for the 99.

MikeO

03-05-08, 14:45

I'll be the odd man out and say I prefer the P99 to the M&P9 as far as size goes. The M&P9 is too big, the M&P9c too small, the P99 just right. I also prefer the slide mounted decocker button to the internal sear release lever for takedown (the only thing I used it for).

Walther made the frames and internal parts for the P99 and SW99 in Germany. S&W made the slide and bbl for the SW99 in the USA. Some Walther P99s had slides and bbls made for them in the USA by S&W; they can be identified by the lack of the German proof marks on the slide and bbl. The Walther made slide/bbl are Tenifer over steel, the SW99s are Melonite over stainless.

exitinyourhead

03-05-08, 14:51

I browsed through most of these posts sort of quickly. I don't know if it's been mentioned but if you are at a toss up between the two pistols, M&P has a 50 dollar rebate + 2 mags special going for a little while longer.

It's already a pretty reasonably priced pistol to start with.

Abraxas

03-05-08, 17:01

I have a P99 and like it, I have had no major issues with the weapon itself. I have shot the 45 and 40 M&P and loved it. While the P99 is a fine weapon I have had a bitch of a time finding a decent holster for it, and as for parts well, those sometimes(most of the time) are also a pain in the ass to locate. So if I were to make the choice today I would go for the M&P. Just my opinion

Abraxas

03-05-08, 17:10

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0043.jpg

Downsides are that the hump in the middle of the trigger guard is a friggin' stupid idea that tends to pinch the finger a bit during long range sessions. .

Wow, that is no kidding, I thought I was the only one to have that happen. What the hell was walther thinking with that

John_Wayne777

03-05-08, 18:40

Wow, that is no kidding, I thought I was the only one to have that happen. What the hell was walther thinking with that

It's German, dude....who knows what goes through the minds of some of those Teutonic twit engineers sometimes. ;)

ToddG

03-06-08, 01:01

I would choose the M&P 9 over my G19.

A man named Gaston just died a little inside. :p

maitresaman

03-06-08, 11:44

Thanks guys. I think I've made my decision.

I'm going to go with the M&P in the 40. I just loved the power.

If I ever get a chance to shoot the P99 and really like it, I'll pick it up.

TBomb

03-06-08, 12:02

Thanks guys. I think I've made my decision.

I'm going to go with the M&P in the 40. I just loved the power.

If I ever get a chance to shoot the P99 and really like it, I'll pick it up.

Great choice! :D

maitresaman

03-06-08, 12:20

Great choice! :D

Any reason to do the 9 instead of the 40?

ToddG

03-06-08, 13:28

Any reason to do the 9 instead of the 40?

Less recoil/muzzle flip.
Less expensive ammo.
Higher capacity.
Less wear & tear on the gun.

caporider

03-06-08, 14:05

Less recoil/muzzle flip.
Less expensive ammo.
Higher capacity.
Less wear & tear on the gun.

+1

Modern 9mm ammo is very good, and the M&P 9 is designed to handle +P loads. You can check out Tactical Forums to see which 9mm factory loads Gary Roberts recommends -- there are lots of them.

BGPD

03-07-08, 09:59

I watched two P99s break firing pins during dry fire practice at training sessions. My opinion, the design of the pin itself with the large square bloc behind the potruding pin is the culprit.

Also, be careful of the SW99 marked "NJ". That was a total fiasco by the NJSP and S&W and the entire run of faulty pistols were eventually dumped on the public.

Sam

03-07-08, 10:34

Less wear & tear on the gun.

And less wear and tear on the shooter.

LH2

03-09-08, 13:06

Love my P99c A/S. I think the P99's are very high quality, underrated pistols with excellent ergos...

Every bit as good as HK's, but with better triggers and lower prices. :D

Other than handling an M&P in a gun shop, I've got zero experience with them. I'd say they have a long way to go to be considered as reliable as Glock though.

Dave G

03-09-08, 13:43

And less wear and tear on the shooter.

Shooter needs to check out this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y

NCPatrolAR

03-09-08, 17:28

I think the P99's are very high quality, underrated pistols with excellent ergos...

:eek: For me; the ergos of the 99 suck donkey balls. Oversized slide stop, mag lever that you can bind with a high grip, etc.

I'd say they have a long way to go to be considered as reliable as Glock though.

For me; the M&P has already proven to be more reliable than the Glock. My Glock 19 went through 2 trigger springs in a 6 month period. I've had no parts breakage in my M&Ps as of yet.

maitresaman

03-09-08, 19:35

Shooter needs to check out this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y

hehe. I agree. That's not a reason for not getting the 40.

BTW everyone,

Thanks so much for all the input. I went in to the store to pick up the M&P 40 but they only had the 10rnd mag. I've ordered the the one with the 15rnd mag and pick it up Tuesday.

Thanks again.

The Dumb Gun Collector

03-09-08, 19:38

The Walther is an excellent pistol. It was quite innovative in its day (see the interchangeable grips, which everyone copies these days). The AS models have excellent triggers and all of them have wonderful ergonomics. I love the slide release position, and commend them moving the decocking lever out of the way. It is sillly to have the decocker on the side of the gun if you don't have to. I have had one for going on 8 years and it is completely reliable. In fact, I bought mine during the ban and have a bunch of 90s era "pre-ban" mags. (A big :D for those of you who know what I am talking about).

I like the feel of the M&P also but I can't get past their horrible triggers. I know a gunplumber can fix this, but Smith should get their head out of their kiesters, especially since I already have tonns of wonder 9s, so why bother?

NCPatrolAR

03-09-08, 21:00

Smith has recently improved the factory triggers on the M&P. This is really noticable in the MP45s.

The Dumb Gun Collector

03-09-08, 21:24

That is good. The earliest M&P's had really nice triggers. But starting with the M&P 45s last year they really got heavy. Maybe they got the signal.