View Full Version : supply and demand
Greentops in Richmond. Oldest and largest dealer in town. Wiped out.
They made it through a grand opening followed by Christmas and kept inventory. They couldn't make it through The O's gun ban remarks though.
It's a strange sight to see a store that has all my life always been fully stocked to be down to the dregs with people still lining the counters.
Greentops in Richmond. Oldest and largest dealer in town. Wiped out.
They made it through a grand opening followed by Christmas and kept inventory. They couldn't make it through The O's gun ban remarks though.
It's a strange sight to see a store that has all my life always been fully stocked to be down to the dregs with people still lining the counters.
A real shame when a long time business of any kind goes under, especially a family run operation.
What happened? They opened a new store just when all this went down?
Oh no... they are not going under.... they are wiped out of inventory.
They just expanded into a Gander Mountain building. they kept inventory through a grand opening and through the Christmas season, but have sold out out due to The O calling for a ban.
ETA: They also have a complete fishing and hunting inventory. They are cleaned out of pistols and AR types. reloading, ammo.
Oh no... they are not going under.... they are wiped out of inventory.
They just expanded into a Gander Mountain building. they kept inventory through a grand opening and through the Christmas season, but have sold out out due to The O calling for a ban.
ETA: They also have a complete fishing and hunting inventory. They are cleaned out of pistols and AR types. reloading, ammo.
At least they aren't going out of business, that's what I thought you meant.
Moose-Knuckle
01-19-13, 19:17
Cheaper Than Dirt retail store, Cableas, Bass Pro, Academy Sports, and all the LGS have bare shelves in my AO. Times like these makes my wife thankful of my "lifestyle". ;)
Cheaper Than Dirt retail store, Cableas, Bass Pro, Academy Sports, and all the LGS have bare shelves in my AO. Times like these makes my wife thankful of my "lifestyle". ;)
It's like that here in PA and online as well. Ammo, parts, guns, virtually every type of magazine, sold out.
I just got two Glock 19 mags from MidwayUSA I ordered almost immediately after the incident in CT.
PA PATRIOT
01-19-13, 21:37
Its on the shelve one minute and gone the next, seen a local gun shop owner stalking a sporting goods store two weeks back and decided to see why he was hanging a round for. Sure enough the employees start to stock some 9mm and the gun shop owner wanted to buy it all but got snagged up by the six box limit and start to run his mouth about how store policy was unfair.
This has been a problem with smaller retailers buying out ammunition inventory's of larger retailers for resale leaving nothing for us little guys.
Moose-Knuckle
01-19-13, 21:50
Its on the shelve one minute and gone the next, seen a local gun shop owner stalking a sporting goods store two weeks back and decided to see why he was hanging a round for. Sure enough the employees start to stock some 9mm and the gun shop owner wanted to buy it all but got snagged up by the six box limit and start to run his mouth about how store policy was unfair.
This has been a problem with smaller retailers buying out ammunition inventory's of larger retailers for resale leaving nothing for us little guys.
Douche bag gun show "ammo dealers" have been doing this for years. Online vendors have way better selection and prices (before the panic at least). I always laugh when I see gun show dealers peddling ammo (especially the value packs) they bought from Wal-Mart at two - three times the price they got it for.
my local high volume gun shop "shoot straight" has been packed since the day it opened about 2 years ago. But, since the oxygen thief did his thing, the tactical wall has been wiped clean and the glocks are half of previous inventory. Same for the local Gander Mtn. My mom has been seriously contemplating a firearm as of late and I took her to Gander today. Prices werent stoopid high, she bought and M&P40 full frame for 529, only caveat was that its a Cali legal gun and has two 10rd mags:mad: But, it was available, as was plenty of ammo. Only .223 was absent.
It's like that all over.
It's as effective as "a ban" in that only real shooters are stocked. They are a small minority. The larger public would have to be engaged to provide enough of a deterrent of any national leader/ wannabe dictator.
We are still in peril - even if you have 5 good rifles and 35 mags per plus 25k rounds of good ammo
Better 3% be armed like that than 50% of the public be armed 1/5th as much.
Just a thought.
TurretGunner
01-21-13, 12:36
Douche bag gun show "ammo dealers" have been doing this for years. Online vendors have way better selection and prices (before the panic at least). I always laugh when I see gun show dealers peddling ammo (especially the value packs) they bought from Wal-Mart at two - three times the price they got it for.
Its called supply and demand... maybe you should read the thread title.
Only a moron would go in to business for charity.......
And we can see who here actually runs a business and who couldn't pass a econ 101 course.
TurretGunner
01-21-13, 12:55
I am going to say this because it really pisses me off. Unfotunatly like the rest of the population, even the majority of gun owners are morons. Same with any cross section of society in reality, and gun owners are no different.
Lets look at a case study:
EX 1: John owns a gun store in a medium size town. Despite what ever notion you have, the gun industry has one of the lowest margins of ANY retail type store. After Rent, electric, gas, internet, licenceing, insurance, payroll, inventory, safes, cabinets, displace cases and the owners strong preference to eat something this week, there is not much left over from most operations. That's why many times you will see either family or close friends working at the store, or dumb shit kids making minimum wage, or working for dealer discounts.
The Great Panic buy of 2012 Hits. John has a decently filled store on various inventory. He has a few choices. He can ignore the current climate, watch everyone else raise their prices, and keep his prices the same. Within a day or two, his store will be cleaned out. Most of the people, are going to buy from him and turn around and sell on the secondary market, or they are local competition trying to stock up as they all know future shipments are in question with such high demand. John can now make his rent payment, all others, and keep his whiney bitch customers happy. John has some cash now to buy additional inventory to replace what he sold. But wait, every gun store in the country including the big boys who have the buying power to get priority, are putting in distributor orders.
As Johns store sits picked clean, he still has bills to pay, employees to pay and needs to keep cash flow rolling in. He doesnt have the buying power to get to the front of the line or put in a big enough order to replace his sold stock. His customers no longer come to the shop because they know he has no inventory. John goes out business because he ignores the simple laws of economics. Now John is collecting unemployment like the rest of the idiots out there who are too lazy/stupid/slow to adapt to the enviroment.
EX 2:
John realizes what is happening, and raises his prices. This ensures that people who really need to buy from him, still can be afforded that oppertunity. It discourages resellers and other business from buying his stock and doing the same. It keeps his store reasonably stocked and customers coming through the door.
Should the panic get bad enough that people are willing to pay WILDLY inflated prices (as they are), he will have additional cash in reserves to either wait out the panic or change his business to one that can be profitable.
Conclusion: There is no such thing as price gouging. It is a made up concept by morons who are either too stupid or too poor to plan for contingencies. If you were dying of thirst and had the option of paying $100 for a bottle of water, or Die because they sold out off all the $1 bottles a week ago, what would you choose? Raising prices to meet demand ensures that those who really need a product, are still able to get them. It also has this nasty little habit of reaching an equilibrium once people perceive the price as too high. Anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you are too stupid to adapt, then you deserve to suffer from it. Nature is telling you that your genes should not be passed on, thus creating more stupidity, suppressing the whole species. That is the essence of survival of the fittest the most basic of natural laws.
I am going to say this because it really pisses me off. Unfotunatly like the rest of the population, even the majority of gun owners are morons. Same with any cross section of society in reality, and gun owners are no different.
Lets look at a case study:
EX 1: John owns a gun store in a medium size town. Despite what ever notion you have, the gun industry has one of the lowest margins of ANY retail type store. After Rent, electric, gas, internet, licenceing, insurance, payroll, inventory, safes, cabinets, displace cases and the owners strong preference to eat something this week, there is not much left over from most operations. That's why many times you will see either family or close friends working at the store, or dumb shit kids making minimum wage, or working for dealer discounts.
The Great Panic buy of 2012 Hits. John has a decently filled store on various inventory. He has a few choices. He can ignore the current climate, watch everyone else raise their prices, and keep his prices the same. Within a day or two, his store will be cleaned out. Most of the people, are going to buy from him and turn around and sell on the secondary market, or they are local competition trying to stock up as they all know future shipments are in question with such high demand. John can now make his rent payment, all others, and keep his whiney bitch customers happy. John has some cash now to buy additional inventory to replace what he sold. But wait, every gun store in the country including the big boys who have the buying power to get priority, are putting in distributor orders.
As Johns store sits picked clean, he still has bills to pay, employees to pay and needs to keep cash flow rolling in. He doesnt have the buying power to get to the front of the line or put in a big enough order to replace his sold stock. His customers no longer come to the shop because they know he has no inventory. John goes out business because he ignores the simple laws of economics. Now John is collecting unemployment like the rest of the idiots out there who are too lazy/stupid/slow to adapt to the enviroment.
EX 2:
John realizes what is happening, and raises his prices. This ensures that people who really need to buy from him, still can be afforded that oppertunity. It discourages resellers and other business from buying his stock and doing the same. It keeps his store reasonably stocked and customers coming through the door.
Should the panic get bad enough that people are willing to pay WILDLY inflated prices (as they are), he will have additional cash in reserves to either wait out the panic or change his business to one that can be profitable.
Conclusion: There is no such thing as price gouging. It is a made up concept by morons who are either too stupid or too poor to plan for contingencies. If you were dying of thirst and had the option of paying $100 for a bottle of water, or Die because they sold out off all the $1 bottles a week ago, what would you choose? Raising prices to meet demand ensures that those who really need a product, are still able to get them. It also has this nasty little habit of reaching an equilibrium once people perceive the price as too high. Anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you are too stupid to adapt, then you deserve to suffer from it. Nature is telling you that your genes should not be passed on, thus creating more stupidity, suppressing the whole species. That is the essence of survival of the fittest the most basic of natural laws.
Yes. Thank you. I am glad someone finally posted something like this in direct contrast to the people complaining about price. I stocked up when the pricing scheme was good and I am just riding out this storm for the near future. Other people aren't so lucky.
I still question where the supply part of this equation is. I don't care about the price gouging; its business and you're free to do as you will. I will however continue to patronize shops that are still selling PMAGS at MSRP vs the guys trying to get $60 for one and wouldn't feel bad if those who raised their prices went out of business after its all said and done. Just as they are free to do as they want so am I.
Where are all the ammo, guns and parts going? I havent seen anyone restock yet.
I am going to say this because it really pisses me off. Unfotunatly like the rest of the population, even the majority of gun owners are morons. Same with any cross section of society in reality, and gun owners are no different.
Lets look at a case study:
EX 1: John owns a gun store in a medium size town. Despite what ever notion you have, the gun industry has one of the lowest margins of ANY retail type store. After Rent, electric, gas, internet, licenceing, insurance, payroll, inventory, safes, cabinets, displace cases and the owners strong preference to eat something this week, there is not much left over from most operations. That's why many times you will see either family or close friends working at the store, or dumb shit kids making minimum wage, or working for dealer discounts.
The Great Panic buy of 2012 Hits. John has a decently filled store on various inventory. He has a few choices. He can ignore the current climate, watch everyone else raise their prices, and keep his prices the same. Within a day or two, his store will be cleaned out. Most of the people, are going to buy from him and turn around and sell on the secondary market, or they are local competition trying to stock up as they all know future shipments are in question with such high demand. John can now make his rent payment, all others, and keep his whiney bitch customers happy. John has some cash now to buy additional inventory to replace what he sold. But wait, every gun store in the country including the big boys who have the buying power to get priority, are putting in distributor orders.
As Johns store sits picked clean, he still has bills to pay, employees to pay and needs to keep cash flow rolling in. He doesnt have the buying power to get to the front of the line or put in a big enough order to replace his sold stock. His customers no longer come to the shop because they know he has no inventory. John goes out business because he ignores the simple laws of economics. Now John is collecting unemployment like the rest of the idiots out there who are too lazy/stupid/slow to adapt to the enviroment.
EX 2:
John realizes what is happening, and raises his prices. This ensures that people who really need to buy from him, still can be afforded that oppertunity. It discourages resellers and other business from buying his stock and doing the same. It keeps his store reasonably stocked and customers coming through the door.
Should the panic get bad enough that people are willing to pay WILDLY inflated prices (as they are), he will have additional cash in reserves to either wait out the panic or change his business to one that can be profitable.
Conclusion: There is no such thing as price gouging. It is a made up concept by morons who are either too stupid or too poor to plan for contingencies. If you were dying of thirst and had the option of paying $100 for a bottle of water, or Die because they sold out off all the $1 bottles a week ago, what would you choose? Raising prices to meet demand ensures that those who really need a product, are still able to get them. It also has this nasty little habit of reaching an equilibrium once people perceive the price as too high. Anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you are too stupid to adapt, then you deserve to suffer from it. Nature is telling you that your genes should not be passed on, thus creating more stupidity, suppressing the whole species. That is the essence of survival of the fittest the most basic of natural laws.
Right on....if prices were not jacked up right now, there would be no supply at all. At least you can get pmags or an AR if you really need it now.
billybronco
01-21-13, 13:22
I actually WORK at Greentop Sporting Goods.
Our shelves in the vault are BARE.
Even the Taurus and Kel-Tec areas are empty. People are settling for 3rd and 4th choices.
I worked Saturday......Nothing in stock. STILL a MADHOUSE.
It's crazy man......We're the largest firearms retailer in the mid Atlantic and even with our buying power and credit, our distributors still have nothing to send us.
As far as going out of business, that's probably a bit of a ways off. We'll see how this legislation pans out.
When you do a quarter mil in business in less than two days though, it's hard to NOT be succesfull.
TurretGunner
01-21-13, 13:24
I still question where the supply part of this equation is. I don't care about the price gouging; its business and you're free to do as you will. I will however continue to patronize shops that are still selling PMAGS at MSRP vs the guys trying to get $60 for one and wouldn't feel bad if those who raised their prices went out of business after its all said and done. Just as they are free to do as they want so am I.
Where are all the ammo, guns and parts going? I havent seen anyone restock yet.
The supply? I don't mean to be offensive but you are either Rain Man slow , or you are be facetious.
When Demand rises, Supply drops. They are inversely correlated.
No one is selling PMAGS for MSRP because someone like me or another business will buy their entire stock and turn around and sell them at market value. Those "nice" guys will be out of business while those "gougers" you talk of will still be around after they weather the storm. There is no stock to resupply. What little is coming in, is being sold faster than it can be put on the shelves. There is not the capacity to restock right now with demand.
Don't try and fool anyone. 99% of people are going to buy from the cheapest and reliable source. You bitching and moaning is not going to effect anything.
That's called capitalisim and the fact that an American does not understand something so crucial to our republic, proves how pathetic our education system really is.
billybronco
01-21-13, 13:25
tb-av....you must have come in on Saturday.
you saw how busy it was.....we have a MASSIVE pistol counter. it's 70% empty.
there were STILL people two and three deep surrounding it to get a look.
brickboy240
01-21-13, 13:55
Why are they still buying guns?
There is no ammo to be found anywhere unless you buy a 357SIG or 10mm.
Even the 22LR has disappeared....I get the 223 and 9mm being scarfed up but not the rimfire stuff. That did not happen back in 08.
Not to mention, there are no mags for these guns being sold.
-brickboy240
billybronco
01-21-13, 15:05
indeed......we've got a shit ton of .38 Special and .357 SIG on the shelf.
that's because nobody can afford to shoot the .357 SIG and nobody gives a jack about wheelgun ammo.....At the moment, at least.
i'm sure that'll be next on Hussein and Joey's hit list.
Moose-Knuckle
01-21-13, 15:05
Its called supply and demand... maybe you should read the thread title.
Only a moron would go in to business for charity.......
And we can see who here actually runs a business and who couldn't pass a econ 101 course.
And we can see who here cannot read and or comprehend at the First Grade level.
As I stated in my post that you quoted; "Douche bag gun show "ammo dealers" have been doing this for YEARS" not just the weeks following Sandy Hook. And guess what, while Wal-Mart supply is in high demand they have not raised their prices. They sell out at a first come first serve basis.
PA PATRIOT
01-21-13, 15:17
A local Walmart actully had the Federal .223 55gr FMJ 100ct this morning when the wife was there shopping as well as some 9mm and .22LR on the shelve.
She was able to buy without limit from a girl who came over to help her who said they have been restocking here and there.
TurretGunner
01-21-13, 15:26
And we can see who here cannot read and or comprehend at the First Grade level.
As I stated in my post that you quoted; "Douche bag gun show "ammo dealers" have been doing this for YEARS" not just the weeks following Sandy Hook. And guess what, while Wal-Mart supply is in high demand they have not raised their prices. They sell out at a first come first serve basis.
News Flash..... Ammo and Gun sales at walmart is probally less than .1% of their total sales revenue.
Its most likely a loss leader for their sporting goods department. That and they order such large quantities they get the product at a much lower prices than anyone else. You need to look up the rubbermade/walmart incident to get an idea just how much buying power walmart has.
Not even comparable to a company whose entire revenue stream comes from guns and ammo/accsesories.
I get the 223 and 9mm being scarfed up but not the rimfire stuff. That did not happen back in 08.
I remember every distributor out there being out of 22lr subsonic or standard velocity. I bought the first brick of CCI I standard I could find, it took months.
Also, I don't understand why anyone is hoarding ammo and components to any unusual amount. There has never been any sort of commercial ammo ban, and 223 is a hunting round so there isn't going to be.
Lowers, Magazines, I get those. Panic-buying uppers, ammo, lower parts kits, bcgs, makes absolutely zero logical sense to me.
Moose-Knuckle
01-21-13, 16:09
That and they order such large quantities they get the product at a much lower prices than anyone else.
Which is why I do not buy from gun shows. I hit my area Wal-Mart stores several times a week, even call them up to see when trucks arrive. I've been known to dig through pallets looking for the boxes with the DOT placards on them as they stage freight at night. I keep money in my wallet and my ammo stocks replenished by doing this.
TurretGunner
01-21-13, 16:27
I remember every distributor out there being out of 22lr subsonic or standard velocity. I bought the first brick of CCI I standard I could find, it took months.
Also, I don't understand why anyone is hoarding ammo and components to any unusual amount. There has never been any sort of commercial ammo ban, and 223 is a hunting round so there isn't going to be.
Lowers, Magazines, I get those. Panic-buying uppers, ammo, lower parts kits, bcgs, makes absolutely zero logical sense to me.
Think about this for a moment.
Why does the 2nd amendment exist?
Then think about what you use to defend it.
Its pretty obvious.
That and people who shoot, compete, take classes, or want to have a rainy day stash are willing to pay higher prices. Panic buyers with deep pockets (i know someone who bought a few palates of ammo not to long ago) are going to buy it up. The cost of componets are going to follow the cost of ammo............
So here we are ............back to the thread title..................
SUPPLY AND MOTHER ****ING DEMAND
brickboy240
01-21-13, 16:33
Right now...there is no SUPPLY because of the DEMAND.
LOL
RogerinTPA
01-21-13, 17:33
Its on the shelve one minute and gone the next, seen a local gun shop owner stalking a sporting goods store two weeks back and decided to see why he was hanging a round for. Sure enough the employees start to stock some 9mm and the gun shop owner wanted to buy it all but got snagged up by the six box limit and start to run his mouth about how store policy was unfair.
This has been a problem with smaller retailers buying out ammunition inventory's of larger retailers for resale leaving nothing for us little guys.
We have local shits (gunstore owners) like that who know the delivery time of ammo at the area walmarts to the second. Within minutes, what they put out is gone, re-tagged and up for sale at x2 or x3 the price at their stores.
tb-av....you must have come in on Saturday.
you saw how busy it was.....we have a MASSIVE pistol counter. it's 70% empty.
there were STILL people two and three deep surrounding it to get a look.
Yes, it was Sat afternoon. .... and you're right I couldn't believe how many people were still standing around to get a look. It's the craziest thing I've ever seen and I've been going to Greentop since it was in the little building next to the old store.
I actually went there just to see if the AR type stuff got wiped out, which it did. The pistol counter really surprised me though. I wasn't expecting that.
Leonidas24
01-21-13, 20:41
We have local shits (gunstore owners) like that who know the delivery time of ammo at the area walmarts to the second. Within minutes, what they put out is gone, re-tagged and up for sale at x2 or x3 the price at their stores.
What's disappointing to me is that the people that I usually see coming into the store to shoot can't, because someone's already come in and bought up all the 9mm FMJ. It makes no sense to me to be hoarding practice ammo, but to each their own.
I will say that the price increases make it more difficult for me to get my practice on, especially since the healthcare law took effect, and I no longer get my usual 35 hrs a week.
TurretGunner
01-21-13, 20:59
What is practice ammo?
115gr FMJ will kill someone fine....
People who did not either prepare or forsee what has happened, deserve to suffer the consequenses.
Leonidas24
01-21-13, 21:14
What is practice ammo?
115gr FMJ will kill someone fine....
People who did not either prepare or forsee what has happened, deserve to suffer the consequenses.
First, you can take your so-called consequences and eat them. Your opinion on my preparation for such an instance as now is null as far as I am concerned.
The fact remains that I took a $7,000 paycut this year with the implementation of Obamacare and I'm not about to dip into the M855 or 64 gr gold dot that I've accumulated for weekly practice.
We have local shits (gunstore owners) like that who know the delivery time of ammo at the area walmarts to the second. Within minutes, what they put out is gone, re-tagged and up for sale at x2 or x3 the price at their stores.
****ing Bastards. POS store owners like these hopefully will be black balled. This kind of shit behavior pisses me off.
I know a local shop that has been doing this since '08 in my neck of the woods. I once mentioned this while in another gun shop nearby and the owner looked at me and said "Why didn't we think of that ?".
Scenario:
It's Sunday morning, current market conditions and you're cruising the local show. You're one of the first guys to see a dealer setting up his table.
There is a box with 100 PMAG M3s sitting out. They are priced at $15/each, Magpul's MSRP. The owner will make his normal amount since he purchased them at the dealer level. There is no limit on how many you can buy.
What do you do?
A. Buy X-amount and leave the rest. You trust the next 20 "gun guys" cruising around the show will do the same thing and offer goodwill to their local community members.
B. Buy them all, knowing you only need X-amount. Sell/trade the rest to your inner circle at MSRP and consider it your good deed for the month.
C. Buy them all and flip 'em at market price to other dealers/people at the show, knowing the next guy would have done the same damn thing if you didn't seize the opportunity.
D. A combination of the above, changing around the numbers and ratios a bit, depending on your situation.
E. Other.
Walk by them, I got plenty.
TurretGunner
01-22-13, 05:07
First, you can take your so-called consequences and eat them. Your opinion on my preparation for such an instance as now is null as far as I am concerned.
The fact remains that I took a $7,000 paycut this year with the implementation of Obamacare and I'm not about to dip into the M855 or 64 gr gold dot that I've accumulated for weekly practice.
Then what is the problem?
There is no place for emotion in this. The market does not sympathize to your situation, nor does it care.
All of you guys blasting stores for buying low and selling high are acting like a emotional little liberals. Ignoring logic and reason, makes you just as bad as them.
I am done here. Clearly its a waste of time to try to reason with some of you.
Hallelujah and praise the lord. Thank you for posting this.
I am going to say this because it really pisses me off. Unfotunatly like the rest of the population, even the majority of gun owners are morons. Same with any cross section of society in reality, and gun owners are no different.
Lets look at a case study:
EX 1: John owns a gun store in a medium size town. Despite what ever notion you have, the gun industry has one of the lowest margins of ANY retail type store. After Rent, electric, gas, internet, licenceing, insurance, payroll, inventory, safes, cabinets, displace cases and the owners strong preference to eat something this week, there is not much left over from most operations. That's why many times you will see either family or close friends working at the store, or dumb shit kids making minimum wage, or working for dealer discounts.
The Great Panic buy of 2012 Hits. John has a decently filled store on various inventory. He has a few choices. He can ignore the current climate, watch everyone else raise their prices, and keep his prices the same. Within a day or two, his store will be cleaned out. Most of the people, are going to buy from him and turn around and sell on the secondary market, or they are local competition trying to stock up as they all know future shipments are in question with such high demand. John can now make his rent payment, all others, and keep his whiney bitch customers happy. John has some cash now to buy additional inventory to replace what he sold. But wait, every gun store in the country including the big boys who have the buying power to get priority, are putting in distributor orders.
As Johns store sits picked clean, he still has bills to pay, employees to pay and needs to keep cash flow rolling in. He doesnt have the buying power to get to the front of the line or put in a big enough order to replace his sold stock. His customers no longer come to the shop because they know he has no inventory. John goes out business because he ignores the simple laws of economics. Now John is collecting unemployment like the rest of the idiots out there who are too lazy/stupid/slow to adapt to the enviroment.
EX 2:
John realizes what is happening, and raises his prices. This ensures that people who really need to buy from him, still can be afforded that oppertunity. It discourages resellers and other business from buying his stock and doing the same. It keeps his store reasonably stocked and customers coming through the door.
Should the panic get bad enough that people are willing to pay WILDLY inflated prices (as they are), he will have additional cash in reserves to either wait out the panic or change his business to one that can be profitable.
Conclusion: There is no such thing as price gouging. It is a made up concept by morons who are either too stupid or too poor to plan for contingencies. If you were dying of thirst and had the option of paying $100 for a bottle of water, or Die because they sold out off all the $1 bottles a week ago, what would you choose? Raising prices to meet demand ensures that those who really need a product, are still able to get them. It also has this nasty little habit of reaching an equilibrium once people perceive the price as too high. Anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you are too stupid to adapt, then you deserve to suffer from it. Nature is telling you that your genes should not be passed on, thus creating more stupidity, suppressing the whole species. That is the essence of survival of the fittest the most basic of natural laws.
Hallelujah and praise the lord. Thank you for posting this.
Yep. At the end of the day these owners have to feed their family. On top of it escalating prices do ensure that limited supply is available for those who truly need an item. This is what capitalism is all about. Some times it can be nasty but in the end it is the best system out there.
billybronco
01-22-13, 08:10
tb-av ----------- check your PM's
The supply? I don't mean to be offensive but you are either Rain Man slow , or you are be facetious.
When Demand rises, Supply drops. They are inversely correlated.
No one is selling PMAGS for MSRP because someone like me or another business will buy their entire stock and turn around and sell them at market value. Those "nice" guys will be out of business while those "gougers" you talk of will still be around after they weather the storm. There is no stock to resupply. What little is coming in, is being sold faster than it can be put on the shelves. There is not the capacity to restock right now with demand.
Don't try and fool anyone. 99% of people are going to buy from the cheapest and reliable source. You bitching and moaning is not going to effect anything.
That's called capitalisim and the fact that an American does not understand something so crucial to our republic, proves how pathetic our education system really is.
Thanks for the snide remarks. I was asking if "stock" was being delivered by distributors to the stores with the bare shelves not looking for a clarification of the laws of supply and demand. Every store that I have been to either refuses to tell me their delivery schedule or truly doesn't know if and when their deliveries will arrive. Just wondering what the deal was.
Like I said I'm ok with people running their businesses in any way they see fit. Just don't expect me to patronize you if I feel you're taking advantage of me. If you spend the next 6 months selling stuff at high prices simply cause you can while other dealers are selling at normal prices don't be surprised if on month 7 you're business is next to nothing even if your prices are normalized.
What would be interesting, with limited supply, would be how much a dealer needs to raise prices in order to cover his overhead at keep his same profit margin.
I've seen a lot of dealers claim that they need to raise prices to cover their costs etc (aka Pass the buck--"hey body I've got no choice--gotta pay the bills). I'm somewhat skeptical of the claim as it always seems handguns make up the largest portion of sales, and those seem to be in fair supply.
I doubt any of them would be willing to discuss their business in that detail, but it would make for an interesting data point.
TurretGunner
01-22-13, 12:26
What would be interesting, with limited supply, would be how much a dealer needs to raise prices in order to cover his overhead at keep his same profit margin.
I've seen a lot of dealers claim that they need to raise prices to cover their costs etc (aka Pass the buck--"hey body I've got no choice--gotta pay the bills). I'm somewhat skeptical of the claim as it always seems handguns make up the largest portion of sales, and those seem to be in fair supply.
I doubt any of them would be willing to discuss their business in that detail, but it would make for an interesting data point.
Would Walmart, 7-11, or Bed Bath and Beond tell you what they pay for their products?
Who the **** are you to decide what someone should price their products as? So you get to decide at what profit level it is even worth for the owner to stay in business?
I'm sorry I forgot his sole mission is to be able to provide you with cheap guns and ammo, not to provide a good living for his family or dare I say improve his station in life. Why the **** would anyone take on the additional risk of going into business for themselves if the reward was not proportional to the risk?
If you don't like it , than go into business for yourself and show them all how its done. After you go bankrupt (which is enevitible based on your lack of understanding of business and market principles), come back and tell us how easy it is.
Sometimes I wonder if I am really that smart or everyone is just that ****ing stupid. I am going to lean towards the latter.
Would Walmart, 7-11, or Bed Bath and Beond tell you what they pay for their products?
Who the **** are you to decide what someone should price their products as? So you get to decide at what profit level it is even worth for the owner to stay in business?
I'm sorry I forgot his sole mission is to be able to provide you with cheap guns and ammo, not to provide a good living for his family or dare I say improve his station in life. Why the **** would anyone take on the additional risk of going into business for themselves if the reward was not proportional to the risk?
If you don't like it , than go into business for yourself and show them all how its done. After you go bankrupt (which is enevitible based on your lack of understanding of business and market principles), come back and tell us how easy it is.
Sometimes I wonder if I am really that smart or everyone is just that ****ing stupid. I am going to lean towards the latter.
Jesus, you do know they make decaf now days don't you?!
TXBob, nobody is going to share their profit margins with you. Honestly, I don't think it's any of our business. Generally businesses price items such that they can cover their expenses and make a profit based on the assumption that they will move x amount of inventory. If they can't move that much inventory due to supply issues, they can risk keeping prices constant in the hopes that supply catches up and they can break even or they raise their prices to adjust for their inventory turns. It's a personal choice and you see it being played out today with some shops keeping prices as is, some raising them incrementally and others jacking them up as far as they can.
As a consumer it's our job to be informed and make smart decisions about how and where we spend money. In the end that is all we have the power or right to do. Don't like how company A is doing business don't patronize them. It's as simple as that.
brickboy240
01-22-13, 14:42
Wow...the modern education system has so brain-washed everyone into thinking that profit is evil. Why is this?
The free market is a beautiful thing...if it is left alone and used to one's advantage. You can either use the free market or be abused by it....totally your choice.
The only reason a lower tier AR is now 2 grand and a box of 9mm (...if you can find one) is 20 bucks is because SOME MORONS are PAYING these prices! If nobody bought the 2000 dollar Stag AR and the 20 dollar 50rd box of WWB 9mm...then these stores would be forced to keep their prices at "pre-panic" levels.
If you race out and buy an AR or ammo at these crazy prices....HELLO....you are helping keep the prices at these crazy levels!
Don't pay these prices, then come here and bitch for pages and pages about how you got "screwed" or how the evil shop owner is "gouging" everyone.
Also...many here are not that young. Didn't you remember what happened in 2008? When Obama was first elected and all the ammo and scary looking guns went away? Well....HELLO...that should have been your wake up call.
After the 08 shortages began to subside....THAT is when you (...like me) should have gone into action. Made sure that you kept a goodly supply of 223, 9mm and magazines for all your guns. Even if this meant buying a few at a time. If you did this back then...you would NOT be out racing around or paying crazy high prices and adding to this problem.
Want the shortages and high prices to stop? Easy...use the free market to your advantage and don't PAY the high prices.
Man...does this get old or what? They should require economics in public high schools. Maybe 2-3 years of it.
-brickboy240
My question is if there is no bans, which seems more likely than not now, how long with prices stay high after this crap is over?
If Harry Reid decides to not allow the Senate to even vote on a mag ban or AWB this could be settled in a month.
I guess there are enough new gun owners that couldn't get ammo to keep demand up for a while but it should fall at some point. If there are fears of the Dems making big gains in the 2014 elections forget about it. But I suspect they will lose seats just for mentioning this.
If the GOP wins back the Senate you may be able to buy .223 for record low prices.
SWATcop556
01-22-13, 15:24
TurretGunner dial it back ASAP. Next one gets an infraction.
You guys really do need decaf.
I said it would be interesting. As I mentioned--I agree no one would likely be willing to discuss that detail. My point was a lot of these guys claim they "MUST" charge these prices to stay open.
I don't buy that for a second (That they MUST charge that high to stay in business--they do it becuase they CAN), although these is some truth in that as supply has dried up--there is no product to sell. I'd be interested to see where that point was. Not that it shuold govern who makes what--just a point of interest.
Doesn't mean I demand it
Doesn't mean I desrve it
Doesn't mean I'm owed it.
Doesn't mean I ever think I'll get it
Just means that I'm curious and think it would be an intersting study for information's sake (I'd rather a dealer just say "Free Market" than some lie sob story).
Charge what you want. Knock yourself out. Some of us do like to the finer inner workings though. It just how we tick.
We return you to regular insults and flames.
Sometimes I wonder if I am really that smart or everyone is just that ****ing stupid. I am going to lean towards the latter.
You have missed numerous practical points repeatedly in your relentless quest for mental superiority. There is a difference between legitimate market price fluctuations and someone looking to price gouge specifically because something bad may happen.
Don't bother with stock investment comparisons, this is different in this case. Perhaps the price of oil riding on an international crisis may apply, but even then reckless speculation is identified.
Can someone choose to buy a gun elsewhere? Sure. However is that seller taking a chance at being labled a creep down the line for legitimate reasons? You bet.
The example of a well intentioned fellow raising prices as needed to correlate with demand is fine. But there is also a category assigned to those that would do their very best to take advantage because now they think they can. Then maybe that idiot influences another idiot and reckless speculation thrives here in the firearm community. That is the crux of the issue.
My question is if there is no bans, which seems more likely than not now, how long with prices stay high after this crap is over?
If Harry Reid decides to not allow the Senate to even vote on a mag ban or AWB this could be settled in a month.
I guess there are enough new gun owners that couldn't get ammo to keep demand up for a while but it should fall at some point. If there are fears of the Dems making big gains in the 2014 elections forget about it. But I suspect they will lose seats just for mentioning this.
If the GOP wins back the Senate you may be able to buy .223 for record low prices.
I think you are spot on. It will take decisive action by political leaders in senate and house to defuse the anxiety and speculation fueled by lack of response by defenders and hyperbole y the grabber activists. Once some key legislation is killed then, like you say, there is a trailing demand by the huge number of new owners of at-risk guns. I would guess 3-6 months.
TurretGunner
01-22-13, 16:34
You have missed numerous practical points repeatedly in your relentless quest for mental superiority. There is a difference between legitimate market price fluctuations and someone looking to price gouge specifically because something bad may happen.
Don't bother with stock investment comparisons, this is different in this case. Perhaps the price of oil riding on an international crisis may apply, but even then reckless speculation is identified.
Can someone choose to buy a gun elsewhere? Sure. However is that seller taking a chance at being labled a creep down the line for legitimate reasons? You bet.
The example of a well intentioned fellow raising prices as needed to correlate with demand is fine. But there is also a category assigned to those that would do their very best to take advantage because now they think they can. Then maybe that idiot influences another idiot and reckless speculation thrives here in the firearm community. That is the crux of the issue.
Clearly you have missed the practical point that there is no such thing as price gouging. I don't know what else can be said.
All of you are ignoring history, natural law, human instincts, and the basic psychology of humanity.
People are going to buy from the cheapest yet reliable source they can find. Why? Because it’s in their best interest. All things being equal, people try to make decisions which are in their own best interests.
You can hem, haw, bitch and whine.....it is not going to change the facts.
Instead of complaining that you didn't prepare, or can’t afford, or can’t find what you want to buy...... Maybe you should ask people where to find items in limited supply.
I have been able to find some places that have items at reasonable prices, and have passed that info out to people here.
This is no different than the stock market, precious metal prices, Freon, or any crisis educed panic. The type of situation has no bearing on the way the market works. That' what’s so lovely about it.
Your last paragraph makes you sound the exact same as gun grabbing liberals. So now you decide what a fair price is, or what people should have or how the world should work. Your ignorance and refusal to listen to proven natural law makes you incapable of even talking intelligently on the subject.
Just as a data point, my SIL just got into his own guns in 2007-2008. So he had a basic setup of Glocks and AR15 before the 2008-2010 panic/drought set in. But he was light on ammo and mags.
He was HAPPY to pay (choke, cough, gasp) CTD prices to get what he wanted to stock up. Most places were bone dry, yet because CTD was jacking their prices so high most of us refused to buy from them. But this guy was thrilled he could by Glock mags for $50 and M193 for $400/500 or whatever it was. He bought a shit ton of 9mm, .357 SIG (!!!!) and .223 at prices I would gag on, yet he was happy he could go out on weekends and blast away. This was exactly during the time everyone on the forums was dumping hate on CTD for being scalpers. My stories of $10/box for 9mm were like silly fairytales when nobody could possibly buy a box for that at the time. Who cares, just the ramblings of an old man. :)
It's one thing to understand the intellectual argument for free market arbitrage and speculation but this example in the family really opened my eyes. I gained real appreciation for price fluctuations after that. I still choke when I see classified posting sales of mags for $50 each or much more, but I know there is some new gun owner out there with just two mags that would dearly love two more to defend his home or practice with and will be happy there is some available.
To my SIL's credit, he did not wistfully pine for the days of $10/box ammo but accepted he was late to the party and was thrilled to get into the sport at whatever the going cost. Now he stocks up, reloads, and has no need to buy outrageously priced ammo or mags!
Heck, just think of the drama we had with the whole Twinkie situation :D
I too would guesstimate 6 months for supply to catch up with demand, so long as nothing goofy happens and we keep trucking like we are. The new owners that went on a binge arent going to be the kind of owners who shoot regularly. Most are the I bought it cause I thought I wouldn't be able to in a few months and probably never shoot it. So ammo prices will come back down to more normal ranges. I do however think that prices won't ever be the same again, unless we have a glut of product hit the streets so to speak and people can't move inventory. We have seen that there are quite a lot of people who will pay stupid prices for items. So the market has seen a new price cap and IMO it will take time before the new "acceptable" pricing is established. It's kind of like gasoline. Prices to let up in the summer, but rarely do they equalize at a previous level. They mostly standardize somewhere in between the old price and the "premium" summer prices. Everyone bit he's about the high price in the summer and then breathes a sigh of relief when the price drops ignoring that they are still paying more than before the summer. Boil the frog price increases. Most likely the same will hold true for the firearms industry.
You have missed numerous practical points repeatedly in your relentless quest for mental superiority. There is a difference between legitimate market price fluctuations and someone looking to price gouge specifically because something bad may happen.
Don't bother with stock investment comparisons, this is different in this case. Perhaps the price of oil riding on an international crisis may apply, but even then reckless speculation is identified.
Can someone choose to buy a gun elsewhere? Sure. However is that seller taking a chance at being labled a creep down the line for legitimate reasons? You bet.
The example of a well intentioned fellow raising prices as needed to correlate with demand is fine. But there is also a category assigned to those that would do their very best to take advantage because now they think they can. Then maybe that idiot influences another idiot and reckless speculation thrives here in the firearm community. That is the crux of the issue.
So should I take the exact same view of customers who attempt to nickel and dime me out of business, especially when supply is flush and nothing is moving?
Are they legitimate creeps?
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