View Full Version : Lake City 5.56 available
wezalsgunsupply
03-03-08, 21:43
If anyone is looking I found a distributor that has 2007 Lake city in stock. I'm an ffl and found it at Ellett Brothers. Have your dealers call. They had 280 500rd cases left when I got mine. They have it listed as Federal Tactical. I got it opened and was in American Eagle boxes. Opened them and they are Lake City 2007. Dealer cost $179.00 per 500. Thats a pretty good deal I thought. If you want them better have your dealer act quick. Later Wezal
If anyone is looking I found a distributor that has 2007 Lake city in stock. I'm an ffl and found it at Ellett Brothers. Have your dealers call. They had 280 500rd cases left when I got mine. They have it listed as Federal Tactical. I got it opened and was in American Eagle boxes. Opened them and they are Lake City 2007. Dealer cost $179.00 per 500. Thats a pretty good deal I thought. If you want them better have your dealer act quick. Later Wezal
Ammoman has some XM193, but not likely 2007. I know some were down on him not too long ago, just FYI.
RAM Engineer
03-04-08, 10:08
What is the story behind XM193? Is it seconds or blems or something? I've seen boxes of XM193 marked "for training use only."
Ammoman has some XM193, but not likely 2007. I know some were down on him not too long ago, just FYI.
Yes. The XM193C is. I don't know what year the XM193A (stripper clips) is.
The 07 LC XM193C is at Wideners, Natchezz, Ammoman, etc. It's everywhere it normally is. Prices are around $200 per 500 rounds delivered. This is not breaking news.
It seems as though XM193 has reached a pricing level finally. $8 per box seems to have finally stabilized the market. I HOPE it will come down from there!
What is the story behind XM193? Is it seconds or blems or something? I've seen boxes of XM193 marked "for training use only."
This has been covered about a trillion times on the internuts. Most of what is said about the subject is completely wrong, and just repeated BS by booger eating goofballs.
XM193 basically started out as ammo not purchased by the mil due to minor QC issues that wouldn't affect normal performance. I finally saw some legit documentation on this subject a year or two ago. At this point, I'd say that Federal has figured out how profitable the ammo is and what a high demand there is for it.
XM193 basically started out as ammo not purchased by the mil due to minor QC issues that wouldn't affect normal performance. I finally saw some legit documentation on this subject a year or two ago.
While I am aware as to what most of the QC issues are that supposedly designate XM and XMPD, can you elaborate what you read for us?
I can't remember exactly. It didn't get into specifics.
I think someone on TOS sent me the info, but I didn't save it because it looked like XM193 was never going to be available again at the time.
I had been asking for some sort of documentation for ever on TOS, back when everyone was babbling about Tier 2 ammo and all this nonsense.
Let me see if I can remember who sent me the info.
OK, thanks.
I have heard the QC issues are known exposure to heat, supposed improper sealing, supposed improper crimping and possibly primers associated with a bad batch. That said, I have fired thousands of rounds of XM and have never had any issue with the structural appearance of a single round. Nor were there any functional issues with them that I can remember. Sometimes the green paint on "tier II" M855 looks a bit rough, but that has always functioned well for me too.
Indeed. I can't remember if the sealant issue was specifically sighted or if that was just internut myth.
Heat, Crimping, and Primers were not specifically sighted as far as I can remember... that would have stuck in my head.
I'd say that the number of rounds of XM193 fired by various people on TOS would be over a million without one legitimate failure reported to my knowledge.
I use this stuff for Home Defense ammo.
RAM Engineer
03-04-08, 12:06
Safetyhit & Demigod,
Thanks for the info! Although you just cost me money...;)
Jason
Safetyhit & Demigod,
Thanks for the info! Although you just cost me money...;)
Jason
It is excellent ammo, so it's money well spent. These days I don't shoot any of my good 5.56 (TAP, MK262, IMI M855, XM193) at the range anymore. Never know when they may dry up the way things are these days, not to mention the higher cost to replace them.
I bought 500 rounds of this from Wideners myself last week. I'd like to say it will be cheaper some day, but I doubt it.
Post here on issues/concerns with XM193:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=otherguns&Number=51836&Searchpage=1&Main=51836&Words=XM193&topic=&Search=true#Post51836
This, from the The Gun Zone, on the issue.
http://www.thegunzone.com/556xm.html
Thanks, Skintop.
I think that Second Link was what I was thinking of!
The first link is full of much of the usual mis information that surrounds the XM193 ammo. I guess people don't get any smarter because they post on the 10-8 forums. :p
Not suprised to see the old man calling it mil rejects. He also says 3131a is bad ammo. "whatever, dude!" Assuming the second link is infact true and real, you can see that the truth is somewhere in the middle.
If you think about it, a manufacturor who kicked out that many rejects would be completely out of control of their production. I'd be willing to bet that the XM193 ammo built on LC overrun M855 brass is very profitable for Federal/ATK.
Sorry! I can't shut up about this topic!:D
Two more points.
1. XM193 is about the best ammo commonly available to us currently. The price is high for a reason. It performs well and people like it. Millions of trouble free rounds have been shot over the years. If there were problems with this ammo, it'd spread on the net faster than news of a Glock Kabooming!
2. What would you rather have in a fire fight? 500 rounds XM193 that didn't pass mil QC... or 500 rounds of UMC .223 that passed all the QC checks???? :D
I think I'll gamble on the X, Mama!
Sorry! I can't shut up about this topic!:D
No, you are just trying for 1,500 total posts before the end of the day. ;)
For the record, according to those articles it seems that 3 of the 4 issues I mentioned have credibility, but no mention of heat exposure being a problem. Maybe that was an isolated case I was told about, maybe it was not true.
There's lots of unanswered questions about this ammo. For instance.... it's M193 ammo made with NATO headstamped brass.
So if it were slated for MIL usage as M193, how could it be assembled using a NATO designation?
I suspect that the primed brass was overrun material or didn't meet some "strict criteria". My guess is that it was then run as M193 and sold as commercial ammo instead of being scrapped. :confused:
But it's all just speculation.... So all we have to go on is it's widespread, excellent reputation.
I remember when I was paying $165shipped for 1000k rds of XM193. :mad:
I've shot a lot of the XM193, probably over 15k rds and never had a problem. I bought 2k of the XM193PD, have shot 1k of it, and had more FTE (in three different rifles with upgraded extractor parts) than I have ever had in my entire life. The didn't look as good as the standard XM, dings, etc.
I actually had to "mortar" my rifle four times in an hour... The rifle was clean. No big deal, but the 1k of PD gave me more problems than 15k of XM.
I asked a Federal Rep, @ SHOT a few years ago, what the deal was and he said he didn't know... But, the ammo was not seconds. Go figure.
The PD stuff is definitely some jookie stuff. I avoided it based on similar reports.
The newly released Federal stuff is actually M193.
The newly released Federal stuff is actually M193.
You mean the Black Box stuff?
Submariner
03-04-08, 16:07
The newly released Federal stuff is actually M193.
I sent the following question to Federal/ATK regarding the XM193C: "I have the same question regarding your XM193C product: Does it have a #41 mil-spec small rifle primer or a Federal #205 Small Rifle Primer?"
Here is the response:
Mil Spec as it is produced by Lake City Arsenal.
Prodserv <Prodserv@ATK.COM>
Yes, demigod, the black box stuff. If only I had some money...:(
Compare with the answer to this: What primer is used in the XM80 round being sold by Natchez Shooting Supplies: 308 NATO 150 GR FMJ 500/BOX, Product Number: FAXM762D?
It is loaded with a # 210 large rifle primer.
Prodserv <Prodserv@ATK.COM>
Well I went to my dealer today and we looked up the ammo via his puter. The system said that by 1330 EST the ammo was sold out. So he called to verify and indeed, they were sold out. But here is the problem. The stuff we were looking at was marked 63gr, not 55gr. Im assuming that we were looking at the wrong ammo? If so, is there any more descriptive info that we can use to find it? On a slightly related note Im assuming that I would have a better chance of finding an honest man than M855, 62 gr?
I picked 500 rounds of xm193c at a local gun shop this morning. I was surprised to see a new black box instead of the old brown ones and the cases are marked 07.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/USMC/AR15/XM193C1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/USMC/AR15/XM193C2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/USMC/AR15/XM193C3.jpg
That's the stuff I got. The price is tough to take, so I just bought 500 rounds of it.
The PD stuff is definitely some jookie stuff. I avoided it based on similar reports.
i can attest to that... i had picked up 1000rds of loose pack XM193PD a few years back for like $180.
out of 1000rds i had about 20-30 rounds that i deemed "unsafe to fire"... the brass was definitely not as clean and shiny as the XM193 in 20rd boxes... i just took my time and inspected each round while loading up mags...
most of the "not safe" ammo had dings in the case neck... i had one or two split cases... a handful were seated too deep...
when we took it out shooting, i noticed that the PD was nowhere near as consistent in loads as the boxed XM193... at least a couple shots per mag were either underpowered (felt like the gun didn't even fire) or overpowered (felt like a 12ga shotgun)... :confused:
That's the stuff I got. The price is tough to take, so I just bought 500 rounds of it.
I paid $225 for 500rds at my local shop. That was the best price I could find.
I sent the following question to Federal/ATK regarding the XM193C: "I have the same question regarding your XM193C product: Does it have a #41 mil-spec small rifle primer or a Federal #205 Small Rifle Primer?"
Here is the response:
Yes, demigod, the black box stuff. If only I had some money...:(
Compare with the answer to this: What primer is used in the XM80 round being sold by Natchez Shooting Supplies: 308 NATO 150 GR FMJ 500/BOX, Product Number: FAXM762D?
Are you guys saying the the black box xm193 is better than the brown box? I just bought 1k of brown box.:(
Are you guys saying the the black box xm193 is better than the brown box? I just bought 1k of brown box.:(
I don't know if that's the case or not! Either way... any of the XM193 is very good ammo.
It's the XM855 PD that I'd be cautious with.
Are you guys saying the the black box xm193 is better than the brown box? I just bought 1k of brown box.:(
Word from my rep is that it was made for a contract that folded up. I dont think there is anything wrong with the brown box either.
Word from my rep is that it was made for a contract that folded up. I dont think there is anything wrong with the brown box either.
Yeah im sure, but that just kills me with my OCD about this kinda stuff. So the brown box xm193 has commercial primers and the black has milspec primers and is hotter 1st tier ext?
Yeah im sure, but that just kills me with my OCD about this kinda stuff. So the brown box xm193 has commercial primers and the black has milspec primers and is hotter 1st tier ext?
M193 is a military designation for a specification of ammunition. XM193 is the same as M193 in those terms. I dont believe that XM193 is 2nds in any way.
M193 is a military designation for a specification of ammunition. XM193 is the same as M193 in those terms. I dont believe that XM193 is 2nds in any way.
I am 99% sure XM193 is second tier.
I am 99% sure XM193 is second tier.
I know about the LC M855 with the M855PD(Pull Downs) being 2nds but havent found anything to show that XM193 is 2nd tier including conversations with my Federal rep. If you find anything I would like to read it.
I know about the LC M855 with the M855PD(Pull Downs) being 2nds but havent found anything to show that XM193 is 2nd tier including conversations with my Federal rep. If you find anything I would like to read it.
I am going on what I have read in two forums over 5 years, and a dealer in TX that I order from in bulk mentioned that as well. I trust 95% of what I read here and now only about 65% of what I read at TOS, so that leaves some room for error I suppose.
No, I am not absolutely positive. Where is Demigod when you need him?
I am going on what I have read in two forums over 5 years
99% of what is posted on XM193 is repeated by masturbators who read nonsense written by booger eating goofballs.
(the tier talk must stop now before we start to sound like TOS :p )
Since none of us know with 100% certainty what the full scoop is on XM193, we can only work with facts.
First off... XM193 is produced with NATO headstamped brass. M193 is not NATO ammo. So before the ammo was ever assembled it was designated for the X line. How could something be rejected (or tier 87) before it's even made??? :eek:
Thus, we can guess that IF there was some spec issue, it'd have to be with the primed brass.... i.e. incomplete primer sealant, etc. Something that wouldn't affect the performance of the ammo.
Now you can NOT tell me that LC produced millions and millions of out of spec 5.56 mil primed brass over the last 8 years without correcting the production problem. I'm not buying it!
My personal theory is that Fed/ATK produced the ammo with overrun components back in 01 (or whenever XM193 first leaked into civy hands). Then they found out what a great demand there was for it, AND how profitable it is.
decodeddiesel
03-24-08, 10:33
Perhaps a stupid question, but how does this Federal Black Box compare to PRVI M193?
Perhaps a stupid question, but how does this Federal Black Box compare to PRVI M193?
XM193c is superior to PRIV m193 in my opinion. Priv is a good round, but I'd pick XM193 over it for a defensive/fighting round. If you're just looking for practice ammo, buy whatever is cheaper.
One of our members here informally tested the Priv M193, and it didn't frag too well at point blank range out of a 20 inch barrel.
decodeddiesel
03-24-08, 12:05
XM193c is superior to PRIV m193 in my opinion. Priv is a good round, but I'd pick XM193 over it for a defensive/fighting round. If you're just looking for practice ammo, buy whatever is cheaper.
One of our members here informally tested the Priv M193, and it didn't frag too well at point blank range out of a 20 inch barrel.
Thanks for the answer, that makes sense to me. I am sure the Serbians don't have the manufacturing technology available to them that Lake City/Federal must.
I think the velocity is there on the PRIV, but the jacket of the bullet might be thicker or something.
decodeddiesel
03-24-08, 13:07
I think the velocity is there on the PRIV, but the jacket of the bullet might be thicker or something.
Actually I found a great post on TOS from FALARAK 2 years ago.
http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=271478
He tested and compared PRVI M193 against Q3131A. He even went so far as to pull and cross sectioned the bullets from both. Reader's Digest version...as to the differences in projectile, the shape of the boat-tail is different, and the opening at the base of the round is different, however jacket width is identical.
Yeah. That was the Priv sold under the Wolf Line. The current Priv uses a different propellant. I don't know if the bullet is any different, but I could pull one of each and check.
I have some of the Old Priv Saved. :cool:
First off... XM193 is produced with NATO headstamped brass. M193 is not NATO ammo. So before the ammo was ever assembled it was designated for the X line. How could something be rejected (or tier 87) before it's even made??? :eek:
Are you certain there is no NATO stamp on M193? If so, that means almost everything most think they know about XM193 is likely wrong. Unless it is re-stamped after being "rejected", which I don't believe is safe or even possible, then it is obviously pre-designated as such and therefore non-reject ammo.
How is it that this is such a mystery after all this time? Somebody out there in either this forum or TOS must be directly affiliated with those that would know for sure.
Are you certain there is no NATO stamp on M193?
Not 100% sure. I am sure that M193 isn't NATO, but I'm not sure if some actual mil issued M193 couldn't have made it into circulation with a NATO cross.
I have ONE box of M193 "REFERENCE" ammo, and I'm not popping the lid on it to check for a NATO cross, MAN! :p
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