View Full Version : You want a solution for mass shootings?
I started this some where else and decided to bring it here for discussion. Let's look at the kid who killed his family in New Mexico, well the police are saying that he killed everyone, but the dad, with a simple .22LR rifle. Based on the sheer numbers, I am willing to bet that it was a Ruger 10/22, a Mossberg 802, Remington 597, or S&W M&P 15-22. Of those 4, which are the most popular semi-automatic rifles on the market, only the S&W would be affected by a ban, and that is simply based on its looks. As for the other three, a 10 round magazine is standard. How much you wanna bet that the kid used two or three 10 round magazines? Now to be fair the kid did use an AR-15 (brand and model unknown) to kill his dad. But that really isn't that important. Here are the two most pertinent facts"
1) The parents apparently left the firearms unsecured.
2) "The New Mexico teenager accused of fatally shooting his parents and three younger siblings told authorities he was annoyed with his mother and had been having homicidal and suicidal thoughts"
So you have parents who, unless they had their heads up their asses, knew that Junior was having problems. Junior apparently was exhibiting schizophrenic type behaviors. Just like the shooters in Sandy Hook, Aurora, and so many other places. It's not the meds they may or may not have been taking. The drugs are a bogeyman, a red herring. The root is the underlying mental condition. It's not the guns. When the hell was the last time someone who WASN'T mentally ill went on this type of rampage?
So you want effective efforts to combat this type of gun violence...
A) The AD council loves putting out all sorts of PSAs. The US DOT & National Highway Safety Transportation Board, and other government agencies put out the "Click it or ticket" commercials. So why not start pumping out "Lock it or lose" or something like that to remind these shit head parents to secure their firearms? ****, I bet the NRA, NSSF, 2AF, and others would love to donate to and work with the government to get airtime for these types of commercials. I bet groups and the American Psychological Association, American Academy of Pediatrics and others would love to put out commercials informing people of the signs of schizophrenia and begging loved ones to get the patient help. They did it for drug addiction, alcohol abuse, and domestic violence. Why not put forward efforts into this?
B) In Florida we have a law called "The Baker Act" basically it states that if you can convince a judge that your are an imminent danger to yourself or others, or if an LEO makes the same judgement, then you can be involuntarily committed to a mental health facility for up to 72 hours for evaluation. If after those 72 hours you are still considered to be a danger to yourself you don't get out. If you aren't a danger then you are set free. Well Maine is considering a change to their mental incarceration law. They are talking about lowering the standard for confinement from "imminent" to something along the lines of "reasonable probability." Yeah this can be scary and fraught with Orwellian problems with out serious thought, but it is a shit ton better of a solution than "Ewwww, guns!! Bad, bad, bad, bad!!"
Yes I know that it costs money. But if you are using tax dollars to study the number of males under the age of 12 who haven't seen porn or how many steps a slinky can fall down before stopping, you can redirect some of that money. So redirect $2 from the amount the government collects from those who file and pay income taxes (~122 million paying people in 2009 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshbarro/2012/04/17/everything-about-this-drudge-headline-is-wrong/)) and you just found $244,000,000 to fund a portion of mental health care. Based on estimates that there are 3.2 million (http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=8805) people in the US that suffer from this horrible condition, that can make a dent in paying for their care when combined with insurance or the like. Hell, wanna get serious and really pay for the whole thing, put a $1 excise tax on every box of ammo (50 rounds for pistol, 20 rounds for rifle) sold. Put a $20 excise tax on every firearm sold. Do that and you just paid for a shit ton of care. Now expand that excise tax to other stuff and it's even more to pay for the system of care.
C) On top of it, why not get an "Eddie Eagle" type of programs in school? We put away how much money into the D.A.R.E. programs and others like it? Yeah child death by negligent firearms is at an all time low and keeps falling, but why not take this extra step and get it as low as you can?
There you are. Three things that can be done to reduce the chances of mass shootings and child accidental deaths. This isn't even addressing the violence the pervades our culture. But these three things could go a long ways towards minimizing mass shootings. Of course they may not stop bombings and the like but then again they might. These three actions would be a shit ton more effective than simply making certain firearms illegal and reducing magazine capacities.
So what do you think? Does this make sense? Any chance of getting this out there for discussion? Chances that any politician would go for it?
The parents shouldnt really be surprised at what happened.
Firearms should be secured.
But I don't want to even breech the subject of lock it or loose it.
That kind of thing can easily get twisted into all sorts of "safe storage" laws That don't make Good sense and make you less safe.
"More locked up is more safer" they'll be chanting.
Sure stuff costs money, But I don't want to even breech the subject of ADDING taxes to ammo and arms.
That can get manipulated by do gooders too.
The dialogue will go like this:
"What's $1 tax on a box of bullets? Not solving the problem? Lets try $20. Yeah, that'll make crooks and killers do the right thing..."
Both of those are no-go issues.
Training and education in schools?
Sounds geat.
They have math education.
They have physical education.
They have sex education. ( but they don't call it that anymore ).
Gun safety education ? "OMG, we can't have that, it will teach then to be mass killers"
Later at home , the same parent can be overheard :
"Johnny, stop playing COD and do your homework "
• don't leave firearms unsecured/minimally secured/ out of a trained and trusted persons direct control.
• don't put little billy on psycho-active meds, particularly out of laziness. Does he actually truthfully have a chemical imbalance? Or is he a normal pre-pubescent male with emotional swings. Is fluoxetine going to cause an even bigger issue? Be honest
• if little billy is actually professionally diagnosed as manic, bipolar, etc, for the love of all things good, don't lie to yourself about it. He's your child and I'm sure you love him, but be honest about the possibility that he could have a violent psychotic episode. "Oh no, not my billy". Stop. Deal with reality, and keep your weapons locked up, for everyone else's sake.
• don't leave firearms unsecured/minimally secured/ out of a trained and trusted persons direct control.
• don't put little billy on psycho-active meds, particularly out of laziness. Does he actually truthfully have a chemical imbalance? Or is he a normal pre-pubescent male with emotional swings. Is fluoxetine going to cause an even bigger issue? Be honest
• if little billy is actually professionally diagnosed as manic, bipolar, etc, for the love of all things good, don't lie to yourself about it. He's your child and I'm sure you love him, but be honest about the possibility that he could have a violent psychotic episode. "Oh no, not my billy". Stop. Deal with reality, and keep your weapons locked up, for everyone else's sake.
No one could have said it any better. If the parents truly ignore the problem and do not secure their firearms, they should be held criminally accountable for any acts committed by the child.
• don't leave firearms unsecured/minimally secured/ out of a trained and trusted persons direct control.
• don't put little billy on psycho-active meds, particularly out of laziness. Does he actually truthfully have a chemical imbalance? Or is he a normal pre-pubescent male with emotional swings. Is fluoxetine going to cause an even bigger issue? Be honest
• if little billy is actually professionally diagnosed as manic, bipolar, etc, for the love of all things good, don't lie to yourself about it. He's your child and I'm sure you love him, but be honest about the possibility that he could have a violent psychotic episode. "Oh no, not my billy". Stop. Deal with reality, and keep your weapons locked up, for everyone else's sake.
+100, denial is the worst action in this case.
• don't leave firearms unsecured/minimally secured/ out of a trained and trusted persons direct control.
• don't put little billy on psycho-active meds, particularly out of laziness. Does he actually truthfully have a chemical imbalance? Or is he a normal pre-pubescent male with emotional swings. Is fluoxetine going to cause an even bigger issue? Be honest
• if little billy is actually professionally diagnosed as manic, bipolar, etc, for the love of all things good, don't lie to yourself about it. He's your child and I'm sure you love him, but be honest about the possibility that he could have a violent psychotic episode. "Oh no, not my billy". Stop. Deal with reality, and keep your weapons locked up, for everyone else's sake.
Okay so come up with a different slogan for the PSAs. I was just trying to come up with something at midnight and my marketing skills suck. That's why I need to hire a new marketing rep. Again the meds are a red herring. Look at the behaviors. The two most recent and most of the shooters exhibited schizophrenic / psychotic behaviors to begin with. This is a world apart from depression and bipolar syndrome. Folks are misdiagnosed with these conditions when in reality they are psychotic. Those folks don't go on rampages and aren't sociopaths and don't have true psychotic episodes like these shooters. People do have to watch their kids more closely. Through PSAs we can get the message across that denial ain't just a river in Egypt. That is another thing, using the media to de-stigmatize mental health care. We have got to get people to look at MHC just like they would any other health care. Part of that would be to assure them that they days of Nurse Ratchett and shock therapy and the like are ancient relics. Just because they were on meds does not mean that you have causality. As for taxation, yeah it would suck to place it all on firearms owners. That's why I floated the idea of putting it on multiple things outside of firearms. It would be a candidate for abuse. On the other hand there has to be a way to figure out how to fund MHC. I think this is important when you think about what damage an untreated / unconfined psychotic can do. Remember, even if you keepp them from getting firearms they can still be agents of mass killings. Hell look at Billy Ferry (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19850828&id=9GxQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9FkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5255,2847263) or Julie Schenecker (http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/julie-scheneckers-trial-in-childrens-slayings-set-for-oct-7-in/1266951) or Dorothy Diane Rose (http://www.sptimes.com/News/102600/TampaBay/Details_deepen_slayin.shtml)
I think all of us here want these killings to end and so do all other normal thinking ppl. This isn't even about school shootings, its about the govt wanting more power and the inability for them to seize it when the citizens are armed.
Don't doubt it. However I am trying to come up with a dialog that has two purposes: 1 blunt the grabbers, 2 come up with viable solutions.
Okay so come up with a different slogan for the PSAs.
"If your kid is crazy, don't be lazy. Keep firearms secure." haha :no:
No one could have said it any better. If the parents truly ignore the problem and do not secure their firearms, they should be held criminally accountable for any acts committed by the child.
In this case there was no need for laws to hold the parents criminally accountable.
Actions have consequences.
They are now accountable to their creator.
********
On a tax note, instead of adding taxes to freedom related instruments,
I would support a tax credit for people purchasing an american made safe, pistol, AR or training class.
Please note, I'm fundamentally against redistribution/tax credits.
We've had many programs like that lately:Cash for clunkers, appliance rebates , etc
In this case, i feel it would actually be money well spent.
Voodoo_Man
01-22-13, 08:16
From my personal experience dealing with youth and their parents its almost too easy to say that they have a "not my child" attitude as a whole.
Many states have a LEO mental commitment type of setup. Issue is LE cannot do anything unless someone calls 911.
Okay so come up with a different slogan for the PSAs.
If your kid's nuts, cover your butts. Lock up your guns to cover your buns.
Do we want govt to prevent every bad thing with more laws?
I agree with voluntary educational things like PSAs and Eddie Eagle safety programs. But in the end most of the kids on rampages have lax parental supervision or responsibility to begin with.
Beyond the voluntary educational measures I think the main thing is how do we allow citizens to best protect themselves and family from any threat: terrorist, whacko kid, gangs, etc.?
Along these lines I think non-permit universal CCW including at public schools. Hardened buildings for schools that make entry more controlled and allow each teacher to quickly secure their kids from the hallway and have a direct alternate escape route to outside. Maybe subsidized CCW training for teachers, and a universal safety plan blueprint for schools, businesses, churches, etc. based on best FBI information and perspective of enabling civilians until law enforcement arrives.
Non of this is likely to happen of course, but I think these would work far better than more gun laws or health laws that whackos and criminals ignore.
Okay so come up with a different slogan for the PSAs. I was just trying to come up with something at midnight and my marketing skills suck. That's why I need to hire a new marketing rep. Again the meds are a red herring. Look at the behaviors. The two most recent and most of the shooters exhibited schizophrenic / psychotic behaviors to begin with. This is a world apart from depression and bipolar syndrome. Folks are misdiagnosed with these conditions when in reality they are psychotic. Those folks don't go on rampages and aren't sociopaths and don't have true psychotic episodes like these shooters. People do have to watch their kids more closely. Through PSAs we can get the message across that denial ain't just a river in Egypt. That is another thing, using the media to de-stigmatize mental health care. We have got to get people to look at MHC just like they would any other health care. Part of that would be to assure them that they days of Nurse Ratchett and shock therapy and the like are ancient relics. Just because they were on meds does not mean that you have causality. As for taxation, yeah it would suck to place it all on firearms owners. That's why I floated the idea of putting it on multiple things outside of firearms. It would be a candidate for abuse. On the other hand there has to be a way to figure out how to fund MHC. I think this is important when you think about what damage an untreated / unconfined psychotic can do. Remember, even if you keepp them from getting firearms they can still be agents of mass killings. Hell look at Billy Ferry (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19850828&id=9GxQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9FkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5255,2847263) or Julie Schenecker (http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/julie-scheneckers-trial-in-childrens-slayings-set-for-oct-7-in/1266951) or Dorothy Diane Rose (http://www.sptimes.com/News/102600/TampaBay/Details_deepen_slayin.shtml)
I'm not so sure that schizophrenia (or some other psychotic disorder) is a common theme for each of these shootings. First, each of the shooters seemed a little too organized in their thought processes, and none of them are described as hallucinating. While it is true that the CO shooter may have some delusions of being the Joker, it is hard to tell if this was a true delusion or mimicry for motivation. The VA Tech shooter even had a mental health evaluation prior to his crimes and was not diagnosed with psychosis or schizophrenia.
In addition, it becomes very hard to make this diagnosis from news reports after they've got a lawyer working on an insanity defense. It is expected that their lawyer would want to taint the jury pool by releasing information that their client suffers from some form of mental illness. I'm just saying that something seems a little off with the notion that an initial psychotic break manifesting in this manner with every case (none of the shooters had a diagnosis of schizophrenia prior to the crime).
I think the real possibility exists that the primary mental health pathology is still a deep antisocial personality disorder. I've also raised the possibility in another thread that we are seeing a combination of personality and psychotic disorder. Either way, the jury is still out on this question...
one scary thing is i have had to talk to my 12 year old daughter about what to do at school or if she is out with friends somewhere to watch for a nut with a gun or a bully at school .
to take cover or to tell a Adult of someone making threats of hurting themselves or others .
I have taught her safety with a firearm ,she knows once that bullet goes out the end there is no taking it back and the damage and death it can cause .
But some Parents look to everyone else to raise their Kids it sickens me . what in the Hell happen to Good parenting ?
why are Parents so quick to put their kids on meds without even reading what the side effects are ?
Or Maybe get in their Kids life and quit letting the TV or Video games be their Babysitter .
[QUOTE=SMETNA;1515923] I would have to say these killers were on Paxil, Prozac or Wellbutrin. Though you will most likely not hear it on the TV news since their advertising $$$ would be lost when the drug companies pull the advertisements .
[QUOTE=SMETNA
• don't put little billy on psycho-active meds, particularly out of laziness. Does he actually truthfully have a chemical imbalance? Or is he a normal pre-pubescent male with emotional swings. Is fluoxetine going to cause an even bigger issue? Be honest;.[/QUOTE]
I see a lot of parents medicate children claiming them to be crazy. But most just seem like kids who act a fool cause mom and dad are shitty ****ing parents. A kid throughs a fit and they act like the kid is crazy and needs 5 different meds. Then once jr is all full of shit for so long he actually goes crazy. Plus it can't be good for a child's mind for mom and dad to treat him like he is crazy when he just needs hand to butt.
But some Parents look to everyone else to raise their Kids it sickens me . what in the Hell happen to Good parenting ?
why are Parents so quick to put their kids on meds without even reading what the side effects are ?
Or Maybe get in their Kids life and quit letting the TV or Video games be their Babysitter .
Because it would get in the way of party time. And some are just selfish worthless people.
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