View Full Version : Highly accurate 77gr loads, barrel twist limits
My M&P15 16" barrel is 1 in 9" twist and I'm wanting to load some highly accurate 223/5.56 rounds that will push 500 yds. I'm thinking of going with a 77gr bullet, but I'm afraid the 1/9 twist won't stabilize the bullet enough to be as accurate as I want at this distance... unless I have the velocity, but then I run into pressure limits. I've heard 69gr is about the heaviest safe load for the 1/9 twist. Has anyone tried the 1 in 9" twist/77gr combo?
I'm thinking once all of the madness dies down, I will replace the barrel with a 16" 1 in 7" twist if the 1 in 9" twist doesn't work well. I won't have a problem loading these rounds for accuracy, but I'm worried I will be limited by the barrel twist.
Any insight?
I load 77g Sierra Match Kings (22g of IMR 8208 powder). It says right on the box for 1/7 or 1/8 twist only. 1/9 is too slow.
Would the 69g be a decent compromise? I currently have two 16" AR's, both with 1:7 twist. I want to add a 22" or so bolt gun and figure I'll be stuck with nothing faster than a 1:9 and want to stick with a common load. Possible, or stupid idea?
Go with a 69 grain Sierra MatchKing. It would be difficult to find a more accurate bullet. If you want a heavier one, try a 75 gr. Hornady. Some 1/9 twist barrels will shoot it just fine.
The 69g Sierra Match King will easily get you out to 500 yards. It may not shoot like a 80g round, but it can get you a high master score.
The 69g Sierra Match King will easily get you out to 500 yards. It may not shoot like a 80g round, but it can get you a high master score.
This.
Learn your wind calls and you'll be fine with a 69 SMK. It's my favorite bullet, almost any gun will shoot it well, even if a ham-fisted monkey loaded it.
This.
Learn your wind calls and you'll be fine with a 69 SMK. It's my favorite bullet, almost any gun will shoot it well, even if a ham-fisted monkey loaded it.
Apparently you have watched me at the reloading bench.
I load 77g Sierra Match Kings (22g of IMR 8208 powder). It says right on the box for 1/7 or 1/8 twist only. 1/9 is too slow.
BS! We shoot 1/9 twist to 1000 yards regularly.
and Velocity matters NOT!... at least it's negligible. I wish I could site the source that effectively debunks that myth... but I can't think of it at this moment..
I'd try a load in your rifle before buying into the party line that the twist isn't adequate. You may be surprised...
Our 77 SMK load in .223 is 21.6 grains of H322. We have a load using 8208 too, but it's designed to match Mk262 and over published MAX, so I won't post that here.
Who uses a 1/9 twist barrel for 1000yd matches for a 223 and with that heavy of bullet. That goes against 20 years of research spent on the subject so I will call myself impressed call you a rifle god to see a target and proof.
It still doesn't negate the fact that the manufacture of the round puts right on their product to not use it in anything other than a 1/7 or 1/8. Which is exactly what I posted.
My favorite AR that I own in 5.56 is an M&P 15T.. One of the early ones (the good ones) with actual Troy components...
It is listed as a 1/9" twist, but actual measurement is 1/8.6". Measure yours to see where it's at - I have heard that S&W buys barrels from other sources, so you may have a good one.
The reason I like mine so well is because it's a phenom - I have never, and probably won't ever again, see a rifle with a lightweight 16" M4 profile chrome lined barrel that prints consistent 10 shot groups under .75".
All this being said - your barrel could be 1/9" or worse - one of my good shooting buddies has a Bushmaster that measures nearly 1/10" - but is supposed to be 1/9"...
My S&W shoots the heavy rounds just fine... I get better accuracy with 75gr. Hornadys than I do with the 77gr. Matchkings. I've never seen one keyhole - and I get right around 1 MOA shooting them. Even though my rifle will stabilize and shoot these bullets well, it still groups its best with 68gr. Hornady HPBT's (.74 MOA), and second with 69 SMK's (.82 MOA), and finally 69gr. Nosler HPBT (.9 MOA). I have some 69gr. Barnes HPBT Match bullets that I am getting ready to test - I believe that they will beat all the others - I have always gotten outstanding accuracy from Barnes bullets.
Also remember that the faster you push the bullet, the less twist rate matters... you can compensate your slow twist by pushing those 75/77's as fast as possible - consequently, the faster I pushed mine, the better accuracy became, until I finally hit my limit. My heavy 5.56 load is a 75gr. Hornady HPBT over 24.5gr. of RL-15, 2.264" C.O.L. (longest I can seat them that will run in my mags), CCI small rifle magnum primers (450 I believe), with Hornady brass, cut with a VLD chamfer. Work your way up to this load, as it is on the hot side, probably approaching 5.56 pressures.
Even though I can shoot the heavier rounds, I prefer to shoot the 68/69's because you get 100 to a box vs. only 50 per box with 77gr. SMK's, and the 68/69's shoot plenty flat enough out to any range that the 5.56 is realistically got the power to do. I nail my 600 yard steel just as easily with my 68/69's as I do with the heavier rounds. Look into the 68 Hornady Match's - they are longer than the 69gr. SMK's, and have a higher B.C., and the best part, they're cheaper! Good luck!
BS! We shoot 1/9 twist to 1000 yards regularly.
and Velocity matters NOT!... at least it's negligible. I wish I could site the source that effectively debunks that myth... but I can't think of it at this moment..
I'd try a load in your rifle before buying into the party line that the twist isn't adequate. You may be surprised...
Our 77 SMK load in .223 is 21.6 grains of H322. We have a load using 8208 too, but it's designed to match Mk262 and over published MAX, so I won't post that here.
Mark,
Since you helped me out with it, I just thought I'd give a report that I tried your H322/Nosler 77gr combo. I worked up a load from 21.0gr to 21.8gr. All groups were sub-MOA, shot at 100yds.
The 21.0gr group was 6 shots (accidentally cranked out 1 extra round when I was loading it) and it printed at 0.576"
The 21.8gr group was better than the 21.6gr (IIRC) and printed at 0.79"
Very happy with the results, and will stick with the 21.8gr for the slightly higher velocity. No pressure signs on the brass either.
Oh, and I know you said that Noveske barrels haven't impressed you, but these were shot with my buddy's SS Noveske 16" :cool:
Who uses a 1/9 twist barrel for 1000yd matches for a 223 and with that heavy of bullet. That goes against 20 years of research spent on the subject so I will call myself impressed call you a rifle god to see a target and proof.
It still doesn't negate the fact that the manufacture of the round puts right on their product to not use it in anything other than a 1/7 or 1/8. Which is exactly what I posted.
We're shooting them through a silencer too... in other words.. it's not like the bullets are having to "go to sleep".
I understand that the general guideline is 1/8, but it's not a hard rule. And I think the OP should try some 77s before dumping the barrel.
On a good day (steady or low wind) We'll go 5 for 5 on an IPSC sized gong. Any varying wind conditions, and we start struggling to keep the bullets MOAish.
Oh, and I know you said that Noveske barrels haven't impressed you, but these were shot with my buddy's SS Noveske 16" :cool:
Looking back on the Noveske barrel experiences I've had.... many of those were with crap ammo like PRVI so called "match" :sarcastic:.
My buddy has a couple of Noveskes that are running right in the area of what you're seeing too.
With that H322 load, I've shot .25" groups with the bolt gun at 100M on the high power range... bolt gun off of the bench, etc. I think you have to work hard to mess up the accuracy of those MatchKings.
Looking back on the Noveske barrel experiences I've had.... many of those were with crap ammo like PRVI so called "match" :sarcastic:.
My buddy has a couple of Noveskes that are running right in the area of what you're seeing too.
With that H322 load, I've shot .25" groups with the bolt gun at 100M on the high power range... bolt gun off of the bench, etc. I think you have to work hard to mess up the accuracy of those MatchKings.
Ha yeah that's a different story there.
Good to hear that his groups match mine...didn't know if I was leaving anything on the table or not. I may still play with it to see how much more I can squeeze out.
I'm really impressed with those Noslers.
We shot some of the Nosler 69s Saturday. They're nice.
I have some 77s showing up Thursday... so we'll get a chance to test those too.
I'll have to check my barrel twist to find our exactly what it is. Hopefully it's a freak and somewhere around 1/8 twist... I may go ahead and order some of the 77gr Nosler's Midway currently has in stock.
My M&P15 16" barrel i...
Any insight?
In a CL barrel you might find that premium 55ish - 69 gr bullets work just as well as a 77 gr. It's not just the weight. That's the beauty of reloading - you get to try different combinations.
Don't expect match accuracy with a production chrome lined barrel, though. (But you never know until you try.)
Is it a waste to load with Sierra MatchKing 77 gr. HPBT if I'm only shooting 100 yards max? I'm just looking at what's available at the moment.
I'll have to check my barrel twist to find our exactly what it is. Hopefully it's a freak and somewhere around 1/8 twist... I may go ahead and order some of the 77gr Nosler's Midway currently has in stock.
Damn, i measure it to be anywhere from 1 in 9.25-9.50" twist... I already ordered the 77gr bullets (which are not out of stock) so I'm gonna try it anyways.
Is it a waste to load with Sierra MatchKing 77 gr. HPBT if I'm only shooting 100 yards max? I'm just looking at what's available at the moment.
I think so. If you want to stay with a BTHP design, I would stick with 69 gr.
Even better would be 55 gr or 60 gr VMAX...hell even 50 gr. Those ballistic tip bullets are very accurate.
Some of the loads listed in this thread are very light. About 22g of 8208 hit a node for me, but the cases had a lot of soot on them, which lead me to believe I wasn't getting good chamber pressure to cause the brass to seal.
Is anyone running these light loads over a chronograph? What kind of velocity are you getting out of them?
Some of the loads listed in this thread are very light. About 22g of 8208 hit a node for me, but the cases had a lot of soot on them, which lead me to believe I wasn't getting good chamber pressure to cause the brass to seal.
Is anyone running these light loads over a chronograph? What kind of velocity are you getting out of them?
Which loads are you considering "light"?
With H322, the listed MAX charge is 21.8gr...which is what I am sticking with as my prefered load
I didn't use a chrono, but I had fairly clean brass and no pressure signs, so I could have probably gone higher. Won't try it without a chrono though...
Mostly the 8208.
I was getting a lot of case soot when I was that low. With a Noveske Afghan barrel, 14.5" w/ mid-length gas and a H buffer, I wouldn't think early extraction was the cause.
With 24.0gr of 8208 behind a 60 gr VMAX at 2.20" and the cases pratically looked new below the necks.
Try with your m&p you will probably be surprised mine shot them fine. I measured the true twist rate to be at 1 in 8.5. So they worked fine.
A lot of people shoot the 77mk in 1 in 9 twist barrels. Bolt guns with longer barrels handle them fine. The added velocity helps with the stability. The slower twist with more velocity give it the additional rpm's needed for stability in the same way a faster twist with less velocity gives you the added rpm's.
I see where you measured the twist. If that is accurate you would need a barrel like the rem 700 around 26". You could try to load a few, but with that twist you more than likely will not even be stable at 100. You should not have any problems with the 69. The 69 and below are good to the distance. In wind the bullets will be pushed around.
If you want to use a v max the ones listed are not the best ones to use. They will work, but are not ideal. The one to use is the 53 it has a .290 bc which is better than any of the 22 cal v max. So you can get good velocity with a great bc. The 53 is an overlooked bullet.
V max bullets offer great accuracy. The 55/60 v max are flat base and are great below 300. They will work further out, but flat base bullets are better for shorter range. The boat tails are better at longer distance. It take a boat tail longer to go to sleep.
Op if you want i would trade you some 69 nosler custom competition for your 77's. I would give you more cc's for mk's to make up the price difference. I even have some of the 53 v max bullets i got for Christmas one year. I do not shoot v max bullets at all any more. For lighter bullets i shoot the 52/53 matchkings which are great bullets for slower twist barrels.
Bolt guns with longer barrels handle them fine. The added velocity helps with the stability. The slower twist with more velocity give it the additional rpm's needed for stability in the same way a faster twist with less velocity gives you the added rpm's.
I think I remember the article that I read where this myth is refuted.
It was in Handloader Magazine. I'll try to dig it up and post the quote tonight.
IIRC, at slower velocity, the spin requirement was lower to keep the bullet stable as it pushed throught the air.
What kind of velocities are you guys getting with the h322 and 77s?
I wouldn't mind loading up some extreme powder up to near max.
What kind of velocities are you guys getting with the h322 and 77s?
I wouldn't mind loading up some extreme powder up to near max.
We shoot it through so many different Barrel lengths, I can't remember.
Our buddy chrono'd it against the M262 load and it was 150ps lower than that with a similar POI.
I just load it to right at published max, and it stacks holes and will reach a thousand yards... so :confused: I'm not messing with it.
We shoot it through so many different Barrel lengths, I can't remember.
Our buddy chrono'd it against the M262 load and it was 150ps lower than that with a similar POI.
I just load it to right at published max, and it stacks holes and will reach a thousand yards... so :confused: I'm not messing with it.
Gotcha, hey if it works.... Just like the Lyman no 49 shows highest velocities for the same with aa2230... I need to get a chrony
Gotcha, hey if it works.... Just like the Lyman no 49 shows highest velocities for the same with aa2230... I need to get a chrony
There are quite a few in the no. 49 that are in the 2800 FPS range.
Sierra has 24.0 gr of TAC at 2750 out of a 20" barrel. AA-2520 is listed at 2700 FPS with a 24.2 gr drop.
With reloading componets I find more and more the need to see what is in stock and make a choice out of that.
I have 45 or so 77 gr Noslers left. I'll have to see about getting some H322.
I'll have to see about getting some H322.
According to Hodgdon... :cool:
This extreme powder has won more benchrest matches than all other propellants combined. It provides match grade accuracy in small and medium capacity cartridges like the 223 Remington, 6mm PPC and the 7mm TCU. As a fine extruded powder, it flows through powder measures with superb accuracy.
I think they say that about every powder they make...
I think they say that about every powder they make...
That one is actually true from talking to folks. For a period, H322 was the benchresters' powder.
I think they flocked to Vihtavouri since.
Markm the way i explained it may be wrong, but i know and talked to a lot of people who can not get the bullet to stabilize out of 16" 1 in 9 barrels. When the barrel is 20-26 in bolt guns they get excellent results. So my theory may be wrong but it seems that velocity is the key to stability.
Later Im going to put some numbers into the jbm stability calculator, and see where the stability limit is for a 1 in 9 twist. Then see if the velocity is achievable without using a 20" plus barrel. Ill post what i find.
One thing that does not make sense is only a couple manufactures make bolt guns faster than 1 in 9. Another thing that does not make sense to me is AR manufactures using a 1 in 9 barrel.
For sure! I'll post my article info. Not that the article is necessarily correct... you know? ;)
You never know if the articles are sufficiently researched, but handloader magazine is generally pretty accurate. The jbm calculators are very nice for questions like this. With the op's twist rate being closer to 1 in 10, it is doubtful he will have any success. If he wanted them for home defense he would be fine, but past 25-50 yards they will probably be tumbling.
When i do the calculations Im going to use his twist rate along with a 1 in 9 to see the difference.
I stopped my subscription to handloader magazine about a year ago. The articles started to be of less interest to me. Now that i do not get it i miss it. Do you remember what issue it was? I found some of my old ones from right before i canceled the subscription.
Markm the 1 in 9 twist barrel you shoot the 77mk's out of is it a gas or bolt gun? How many 1 in 9's do you shoot? What barrel length are they?
The bolt gun is a nominal 1/9 20 inch barrel. We've not checked for the exact rate.
The article is on the OVER-stabilization debate, but the author hits on the topic we are discussing.
Here is the quote from the article:
December 2012
Handloader Magazine
"Rifle Bullet Stability"
by John Barsness
Most shooters believe extra muzzle velocity helps stabilize a bullet. Like the myth of overstabilization, this contains a kernel of truth, but in reality extra velocity only helps a tiny amount. There are two conflicting factors in stabilization: the bullet's center of gravity, determined by the rate of spin; and the center of pressure, the force of the atmosphere on the front of the bullet. When muzzle velocity increases, the gyroscopic stability increases, but air pressure on the bullet also increases. The two forces almost counteract each other, with a slight edge going to faster spin.
There are quite a few in the no. 49 that are in the 2800 FPS range.
Sierra has 24.0 gr of TAC at 2750 out of a 20" barrel. AA-2520 is listed at 2700 FPS with a 24.2 gr drop.
With reloading componets I find more and more the need to see what is in stock and make a choice out of that.
I have 45 or so 77 gr Noslers left. I'll have to see about getting some H322.
I have loads worked up with varget, but aa2230 and aa2520 are always available local, haven't shot my 2520 75 gr hpbt rounds yet, but should be slightly higher velocity than varget for the same charge.
You never know if the articles are sufficiently researched, but handloader magazine is generally pretty accurate. The jbm calculators are very nice for questions like this. With the op's twist rate being closer to 1 in 10, it is doubtful he will have any success. If he wanted them for home defense he would be fine, but past 25-50 yards they will probably be tumbling.
When i do the calculations Im going to use his twist rate along with a 1 in 9 to see the difference.
I stopped my subscription to handloader magazine about a year ago. The articles started to be of less interest to me. Now that i do not get it i miss it. Do you remember what issue it was? I found some of my old ones from right before i canceled the subscription.
Markm the 1 in 9 twist barrel you shoot the 77mk's out of is it a gas or bolt gun? How many 1 in 9's do you shoot? What barrel length are they?
i forgot about that calculator and found something quite interesting... i ran it while playing with the temperature, barometric pressure, and velocity it came out green in certain instances and yellow in others, but never red. it seems like a 1/9 twist is right on the edge of too slow. eventually when everything cools down, i might grab a 1/7 or 1/8 twist barrel for extra insurance. but im definitely going to try them out now.
i ran it while playing with the temperature, barometric pressure, and velocity it came out green in certain instances and yellow in others, but never red.
That's a good point.
The article mentioned above noted that a stabile bullet in one season may not be so in the opposite season.
I think they say that about every powder they make...
I went back and read all the profiles.... None of the descriptions include any benchrest victory claims. :confused:
The change in velocity due to barrel length does not always compensate for barrel twist rate. When comparing the effect of twist rate and barrel length I shot 68g & 69g projectiles out of my 16" 1:9 twist AR carbine barrel and 26" 1:12 twist bolt action barrel.
I could normally shoot 1-1/2 to 2 MOA groups out to 200 yards with my 16" barrel carbine and 68g reloads. I fired some of the loads out of my bolt action rifle and could not get on paper at 100 yards. At 50 yards not all of the rounds were on paper and most of those that were on paper went through the target sideways. The extra 10" of barrel length did not compensate for the slower twist rate.
You never know until you try.
I went back and read all the profiles.... None of the descriptions include any benchrest victory claims. :confused:
Way too literal bub.
Way too literal bub.
Well newer loader reading that comment might think the description of H322 as the winningest powder was all marketing fluff.
I couldn't find anything in 20 plus other powder descriptions that even mentioned win counts, benchrest, or any other claim to competition fame.
If you make any choices based off of marketing shame on you.
thanks for all the info... i just ordered nosler 69gr HPBT and some sierra 77 SMK projectiles. I already have on hand H322, CFE223, VV 133/530/540, AR-Comp and BL-C2. I have been looking forward to heavy 223 bullets for a while. will post my findings as i shoot. Also I have a Rainier Ultra Match 1/8 twist 14.5" barrel. This is gonna be sweet...:dance3:
I tried out some Nosler CC 77gr a few weeks ago. It was very windy, but they seemed to hold their own even with the 1/9 twist barrel. My best load was 23gr CFE223 at 2.250 OAL. I just loaded up 5 of each different load just to see if they would fly with my slow twist barrel, so I didn't get to experiment much with groups. I loaded up some more to try out the ladder test, which I hope to do this weekend. And then get to some longer range testing.
I ordered some SMK 77gr which are a few thousandths longer. Hopefully they will fly just as well as the Noslers...
If you make any choices based off of marketing shame on you.
If you make an actual contribution to the thread, I'll piss myself in shock! :eek:
thanks for all the info... i just ordered nosler 69gr HPBT and some sierra 77 SMK projectiles. I already have on hand H322,
I'm not sure what it is about the H322 combo we've had such good experience with.
But H322 was the winner for us with 80 gr SMKs too. The other two pieces of the combo are Wolf Primers, and a light factory Crimp. I don't have the patience to remove the crimp to see if that hurts neck tension consistency.
What OAL are you seating them at for the 69 gr. and 77 gr.?
Have you tried the Wolf/H322 combo with any other bullets?
What OAL are you seating them at for the 69 gr. and 77 gr.?
Have you tried the Wolf/H322 combo with any other bullets?
I loaded my 77gr to 2.25". Wouldn't you want all loads (regardless of caliber) as close to the lands as possible (.020 clearance from ogive to lands) only limited by mag clearance?
You'll never be that close with an AR15 feeding from the magazine.
The popular OALs seem to be 2.250, 2.255 and 2.260 with the heavy bullets. I ask because when I loaded some Nosler 77s up at 2.260 some where hanging up on the magazine. The tips weren't very uniform.
I wanted to ask the other guy in this thread what his pet load was seated at for reference, but like usual he's being a tool bag. He can throw out good info, but ****. High maintence like an old Buick.
I've had really good luck with 55 gr. FMJBTs seated at 2.200". With 25.5 gr of Win 748 the average of four 5-rounds groups fired at 100 yards was right at 1.10 MOA. Hard to ask much more from a FMJ bulk type bullet.
You'll never be that close with an AR15 feeding from the magazine.
The popular OALs seem to be 2.250, 2.255 and 2.260 with the heavy bullets. I ask because when I loaded some Nosler 77s up at 2.260 some where hanging up on the magazine. The tips weren't very uniform.
I wanted to ask the other guy in this thread what his pet load was seated at for reference, but like usual he's being a tool bag. He can throw out good info, but ****. High maintence like an old Buick.
I've had really good luck with 55 gr. FMJBTs seated at 2.200". With 25.5 gr of Win 748 the average of four 5-rounds groups fired at 100 yards was right at 1.10 MOA. Hard to ask much more from a FMJ bulk type bullet.
I use "the other guy's" pet load as well except with 77gr Nosler CC's.
I will have to update later when I get a chance to look at my load book, but I believe that I was seating at 2.255". If you set the seating die out to 2.26", you'll get a few that seat longer (say .005-.008") than you intend due to slight ogive difference (I'm guessing).
I've had really good results with this load, sitting at .5-.75 MOA pretty consistently. I would imagine that these would do just as well seated back to 2.250", since I've heard that these (and the SMK's) aren't very sensitive to the distance they have to jump to the lands.
Also, I seat my Hornady 55gr FMJs to 2.200" (I'll have to confirm when I can look at my load book), with TAC and Wolf SRMs. Interestingly, I got my best group ever using these. It was a 6 shot group that came in sub .5 MOA.
I loaded my 77gr to 2.25". Wouldn't you want all loads (regardless of caliber) as close to the lands as possible (.020 clearance from ogive to lands) only limited by mag clearance?
No. Not for Tangent Ogive bullets. For example... although not .223, our .308 ammo has at least a .130" jump and that stuff shoots lights out.
I don't purposely jump that far, but due to the ridiculously long leade in the factory barrel, it is what it is.
I use "the other guy's" pet load as well except with 77gr Nosler CC's.
I will have to update later when I get a chance to look at my load book, but I believe that I was seating at 2.255". If you set the seating die out to 2.26", you'll get a few that seat longer (say .005-.008") than you intend due to slight ogive difference (I'm guessing).
I've had really good results with this load, sitting at .5-.75 MOA pretty consistently. I would imagine that these would do just as well seated back to 2.250", since I've heard that these (and the SMK's) aren't very sensitive to the distance they have to jump to the lands.
Also, I seat my Hornady 55gr FMJs to 2.200" (I'll have to confirm when I can look at my load book), with TAC and Wolf SRMs. Interestingly, I got my best group ever using these. It was a 6 shot group that came in sub .5 MOA.
The meplats of the Nosler OTM rounds aren't very consistent. Not that they really need to be. I had considered buying a meplat uniform tool, just for use on the ones I loaded with the intention of being super accurate. Then I load 55 gr FMJBT hornady bullets and get near the same accuracy for a fraction of the cost.
The meplats of the Nosler OTM rounds aren't very consistent. Not that they really need to be. I had considered buying a meplat uniform tool, just for use on the ones I loaded with the intention of being super accurate. Then I load 55 gr FMJBT hornady bullets and get near the same accuracy for a fraction of the cost.
Well, everything that I've read/heard is that the meplat/ogive/body/ect. matters way less than the tail of the bullet when it comes to accuracy. A consistent meplat may help with accuracy, but the more concentric and consistent the tail of the bullet, the better effect on the accuracy.
As for the Hornady 55gr FMJBT achieving near the same accuracy, that's only partially true. The main issue is they will never take the place of a quality 77gr OTM. It's just a totally different bullet for a totally different application. Also, I consistently get sub-MOA with the 77's, but that's not the case with the 55gr.
The meplats of the Nosler OTM rounds aren't very consistent. Not that they really need to be. I had considered buying a meplat uniform tool, just for use on the ones I loaded with the intention of being super accurate. Then I load 55 gr FMJBT hornady bullets and get near the same accuracy for a fraction of the cost.
I disagree 100% based on what I see. The meplats on the Nosler 77 gr OTMs are more consistant than on the SMKs. Not that it makes any difference - they shoot the same in my 18" Noveske barrel. The COL on the Nolser reloads show slightly less variance in my experience as well. The meplat variance is visible to the necked eye.
The Nosler OTMs as well as the SMKs print about half the group size as the 55 gr Hornady FMJs in the same SPR barrel. With me on the trigger it's generally around 1 MOA with the Noslers (or SMKs), and sometimes less; Vs ~2 MOA (or a little more) with the 55 gr Hornadys.
ETA: And the superior accuracy with the 77s gets even more noticable past about 300-400 Yds.
From what i have seen the noslers meplat seems more uniform than the matchkings, but both of them have ogive that are very consistent. The best meplat i have seen have been the hornady 75 otm. I can never get them to shoot for shit. I have not messed with bergers or lapua otm's.
The custom comps and matchkings are basically equal in group size with everything i have. I have read that when black hills ( garbage) were developing mk 262 they did not notice a difference in accuracy between the custom comp and matchkings until they were shot in a vice. When shot in a vice the matchkings showed a slightly better accuracy potential. The custom comps have a better terminal performance.
I got to shoot my new noveske spr the day before yesterday, and it shot flat out amazing. I only used some factory ammo to zero irons and scope. When i take the 77 matchkings i have loaded with 8208 Im expecting half moa at a hundred. My longer range has snow still and its only three hundred. With fed gold medal match 69 matchkings groups were just a little off half moa.
I finally have something that Will break .75 moa. Now Im going to spend some time working up some new loads. Im going to revisit markm's h322 77 grain load. I tried it with my mrp, and it did pretty good around .85" at my 100 yard range.
I'm not sure what it is about the H322 combo we've had such good experience with.
But H322 was the winner for us with 80 gr SMKs too. The other two pieces of the combo are Wolf Primers, and a light factory Crimp. I don't have the patience to remove the crimp to see if that hurts neck tension consistency.
are you using wolf small rifle or small rifle mag primers? i have both...
Heavy Metal
03-26-13, 21:59
BS! We shoot 1/9 twist to 1000 yards regularly.
and Velocity matters NOT!... at least it's negligible. I wish I could site the source that effectively debunks that myth... but I can't think of it at this moment..
I'd try a load in your rifle before buying into the party line that the twist isn't adequate. You may be surprised...
Our 77 SMK load in .223 is 21.6 grains of H322. We have a load using 8208 too, but it's designed to match Mk262 and over published MAX, so I won't post that here.
How cold air are you shooting it in? Air temp makes a big diff.
Lots of people shoot 77's out of 1 in 9 in bolt guns. The extra speed gives the needed rpm to stabalize the bullet. There is more air resistance the faster the bullet travels, but the added velocity is going to overcome the slightly higher resistance. We talked about this in another thread.
It has to be a drastic temperature drop to cause the bullet to not be stable. His barrel may be a little faster than 1 in 9 as well. The few 1 in 9 twists I have measured were all a little faster.
I have never seen a 1 in 9 bolt gun with a 20" or longer barrel not be able to stabilize 77mk's.
I still want to do the Jag thing to check Pappabear's barrel twist. Next time I order some bullets, I'm going to try 50 of the 90s. :p I just have to see how far we can push the barrel before it quits cooperating.
I have measured a few m&p15's with the 1 in 9 barrel, and they were all in the 1 in 8 range. Most were 1 in 8.5. My buddy has a rem 700 in 223, and it was 1 in 8.75. I think it is a varmints model.
Markm I think the 90's might be a little to long but you never know until you try it.
Markm I think the 90's might be a little to long but you never know until you try it.
I think they'll be long too. But I'm having fun experimenting.
I think they'll be long too. But I'm having fun experimenting.
No point in not trying it. If you can't shoot them in the bolt gun I'm sure you have a few 556 chambered ar's to run them in.
I have read that the 1 in 6.5 was necessary for the 90's, but I'm not sure how true that is.
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