View Full Version : "Gordy's gone man, I'll be outside, good luck"...
So I just finished watching the Unrated Extended Cut of Black Hawk Down. This makes the third version I own on DVD along with the original release and the 3 Disc Deluxe Edition.
The extra footage doesn't make any kind of dramatic difference but as the film is one of the best war movies ever made many here might be interested in this version as well. Especially since used copies can be had for as low as a couple bucks on Amazon.
Regardless of which edition I am watching, the scene where Shugart goes back out to face the enemy alone never fails to gut punch you hard. You know it's real, you know it pretty much went about like it was depicted in the film and you know you're not sure you'd be able to do the same personally unless you've already done it.
As they pondered at Toko Ri..."Where do we get such men?"
Sergeant First Class Shughart, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as a Sniper Team Member, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Sergeant First Class Shughart provided precision sniper fires from the lead helicopter during an assault on a building and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. While providing critical suppressive fires at the second crash site, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the site. Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After their third request to be inserted, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader received permission to perform this volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader were inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader, while under intense fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Sergeant First Class Shughart pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Sergeant First Class Shughart used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers while traveling the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. Sergeant First Class Shughart continued his protective fire until he depleted his ammunition and was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Sergeant First Class Shughart's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.
Master Sergeant Gordon, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as Sniper Team Leader, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Master Sergeant Gordon's sniper team provided precision fire from the lead helicopter during an assault and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. When Master Sergeant Gordon learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the second crash site, he and another sniper unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After his third request to be inserted, Master Sergeant Gordon received permission to perform his volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Master Sergeant Gordon was inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon and his fellow sniper, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Master Sergeant Gordon immediately pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Master Sergeant Gordon used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers until he depleted his ammunition. Master Sergeant Gordon then went back to the wreckage, recovering some of the crew's weapons and ammunition. Despite the fact that he was critically low on ammunition, he provided some of it to the dazed pilot and then radioed for help. Master Sergeant Gordon continued to travel the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. After his team member was fatally wounded and his own rifle ammunition exhausted, Master Sergeant Gordon returned to the wreckage, recovering a rifle with the last five rounds of ammunition and gave it to the pilot with the words, "good luck." Then, armed only with his pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon continued to fight until he was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. In total 50 Somalian bodies were found at the location. Master Sergeant Gordon's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.
Great movies and books about the event.
Brass balls, those two...
Awesome movie. One of the few books I've actually read too. I think it was SSD that posted a link to another book maybe a year or so ago that was written about the battle, I think from LTC McKnight. Apparently it was a good read but I never got around to ordering it.
ShortytheFirefighter
01-23-13, 15:14
I've done the same thing, every time a new version gets released it gets added to the collection. Having read the book and studied what I could before I went and saw the movie, I dreaded that scene more than most of them. I think that scene was the one that angered me the most, it truly is a punch to the guts. Those two defined heroism and selflessness.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. RIP to both of them.
Now this is one great post. Maybe your best yet.
So I just finished watching the Unrated Extended Cut of Black Hawk Down. This makes the third version I own on DVD along with the original release and the 3 Disc Deluxe Edition.
The extra footage doesn't make any kind of dramatic difference but as the film is one of the best war movies ever made many here might be interested in this version as well. Especially since used copies can be had for as low as a couple bucks on Amazon.
Regardless of which edition I am watching, the scene where Shugart goes back out to face the enemy alone never fails to gut punch you hard. You know it's real, you know it pretty much went about like it was depicted in the film and you know you're not sure you'd be able to do the same personally unless you've already done it.
As they pondered at Toko Ri..."Where do we get such men?"
Indeed. Some actions and deeds just stick in your mind and leave you wondering where do such men come from? Various actions by members of the SOG in Vietnam are burned into my mind after reading of them, missions by Hathcock, and "patches" Watson and stories from the campaigns on those miserable little islands off Japan (there's just so many) or the astounding conditions faced in the Ardennes and the incredible spirit shown. I'm left humbled and as you say, wondering if I'd survive at all much less show a fraction of what such men have.
I've done the same thing, every time a new version gets released it gets added to the collection. Having read the book and studied what I could before I went and saw the movie, I dreaded that scene more than most of them. I think that scene was the one that angered me the most, it truly is a punch to the guts. Those two defined heroism and selflessness.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. RIP to both of them.
Same here. The book was awesome in providing a great deal of information that led up to the event. And like so many others I remember watching the aftermath on the evening news. Seeing them dragged through the streets by those savages made my blood boil. Hard to believe it is coming up on 20 years.
Sickens me to think that we fed many of those same savages with the 1984 "We Are The World" effort.
Indeed. Some actions and deeds just stick in your mind and leave you wondering where do such men come from? Various actions by members of the SOG in Vietnam are burned into my mind after reading of them, missions by Hathcock, and "patches" Watson and stories from the campaigns on those miserable little islands off Japan (there's just so many) or the astounding conditions faced in the Ardennes and the incredible spirit shown. I'm left humbled and as you say, wondering if I'd survive at all much less show a fraction of what such men have.
If ever you want to truly feel humbled I'd recommend this book.
The Congressional Medal of Honor: The Names, The Deeds
Several editions exist depending upon publication date. To your list I'd add Jack Lucas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacklyn_H._Lucas
Now this is one great post. Maybe your best yet.
You should put your avatar back. Internet bickering is no reason to cease what was a gesture of respect.
thopkins22
01-23-13, 15:51
Panteao Productions is doing a video with Paul Howe where he recounts the events of that day from his/Delta's perspective. Should be awesome.
At one of his classes I attended he stated that the book was about 75%, and the movie 50%...I don't know how much of that is the events being different as opposed to losing some things to context.
For instance the "this is my safety" bit actually happened...but it happened with a loaded mag, empty chamber, and hammer down and was part of a larger argument between Delta and leadership regarding security on base.
ShortytheFirefighter
01-23-13, 16:04
If ever you want to truly feel humbled I'd recommend this book.
The Congressional Medal of Honor: The Names, The Deeds
Several editions exist depending upon publication date. To your list I'd add Jack Lucas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacklyn_H._Lucas
We're two for two.
I'd be curious to see your bookshelf/movie collection. I have a feeling that they're going to have more than a few similarities. Another great addition to the conversation.
This is one that I marvel at every time I read about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hudner
I have this framed print in my office along with a couple of others to have an example of some of the things we've been talking about in this thread:
http://www.valorstudios.com/Thomas-Hudner-F4U-Corsair.htm
If ever you want to truly feel humbled I'd recommend this book.
The Congressional Medal of Honor: The Names, The Deeds
Several editions exist depending upon publication date. To your list I'd add Jack Lucas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacklyn_H._Lucas
Have you read about the experiences of Marine Sgt. Al Schmid? If it were not 100% true and confirmed, it would be stuff of bad war movies where you figure no one could survive it. Schmid, blinded by a grenade could not see, while his one remaining partner, didn't have working arms, so partner without arms the directed the blind Schmid where to shoot and when to reload all through the night:
"The number of bodies counted within range of Al Schmid's machine gun ran into the hundreds. The other Marines who were there that night credited him with killing at least 200 Japanese."
For his actions, he "only" won the Navy Cross. A story worth reading:
http://www.historynet.com/marine-sergeant-al-schmid-september-96-world-war-ii-feature.htm
Have you read about the experiences of Marine Sgt. Al Schmid? If it were not 100% true and confirmed, it would be stuff of bad war movies where you figure no one could survive it. Schmid, blinded by a grenade could not see, while his one remaining partner, didn't have working arms, so partner without arms the directed the blind Schmid where to shoot and when to reload all through the night:
"The number of bodies counted within range of Al Schmid's machine gun ran into the hundreds. The other Marines who were there that night credited him with killing at least 200 Japanese."
For his actions, he "only" won the Navy Cross. A story worth reading:
http://www.historynet.com/marine-sergeant-al-schmid-september-96-world-war-ii-feature.htm
Yet, MacArthur got a MOH for "leadership."
:rolleyes:
We handed them out pretty liberally during the Civil War too.
Moose-Knuckle
01-23-13, 16:11
My blood still boils.
U.S. to recognize Somali government, opening door to new aid
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/16/us-somalia-usa-idUSBRE90F1CX20130116
Just in the past four years we have given these oxygen thieves $1,000,000,000 US.
Yet, MacArthur got a MOH for "leadership."
:rolleyes:
And I has thought it for having the biggest ego of WWII :D
And I has thought it for having the biggest ego of WWII :D
In fairness he WAS the last official Emperor of Japan.
We're two for two.
I'd be curious to see your bookshelf/movie collection. I have a feeling that they're going to have more than a few similarities. Another great addition to the conversation.
This is one that I marvel at every time I read about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hudner
I have this framed print in my office along with a couple of others to have an example of some of the things we've been talking about in this thread:
http://www.valorstudios.com/Thomas-Hudner-F4U-Corsair.htm
I have a Corsair print framed that simply isn't on the wall yet.
:D
Too much Black Sheep Squadron as a kid.
So here is the office library.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/000000001974_zps07e4fbec.jpg
A couple shelves of interest.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/000000001975_zps83d348a6.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/000000001976_zps4f91ecd1.jpg
In fairness he WAS the last official Emperor of Japan.
Japan still has an Emperor... That was their one condition of surrender.
Japan still has an Emperor... That was their one condition of surrender.
I think you missed the joke.
Magic_Salad0892
01-23-13, 16:55
That's a nice library you got goin' there, Steyr.
So... you guys are totally gonna make fun of me.
I've never seen Black Hawk Down. Which is weird, because I used to own it.
Japan still has an Emperor... That was their one condition of surrender.
You missed da joke! ;)
Interesting comments also. I didn't know Japan was afforded any conditions to their surrender. Allowed as some small way they could save face? Thought I knew my WWII history fairly well (not an expert by any means) but that one escaped me. Had thought it was an unconditional surrender.
GeorgiaBoy
01-23-13, 17:13
While the Delta Sniper scene was one of the best, I have always favored the humvee seen with Hoot more.
The courage to get back on the gun, the music that was playing, seeing him lay waste to the skinnies on the roof.. that scene just went to gather so well. Erica Bana captured that Delta character and persona better than William Fitchner.
Panteao Productions is doing a video with Paul Howe where he recounts the events of that day from his/Delta's perspective. Should be awesome.
At one of his classes I attended he stated that the book was about 75%, and the movie 50%...I don't know how much of that is the events being different as opposed to losing some things to context.
For instance the "this is my safety" bit actually happened...but it happened with a loaded mag, empty chamber, and hammer down and was part of a larger argument between Delta and leadership regarding security on base.
I saw they were doing that, I'm very interested.
That's a nice library you got goin' there, Steyr.
So... you guys are totally gonna make fun of me.
I've never seen Black Hawk Down. Which is weird, because I used to own it.
That blows my mind, though I'm the exact same way with Restrepo which I've heard is pretty legit.
While the Delta Sniper scene was one of the best, I have always favored the humvee seen with Hoot more.
The courage to get back on the gun, the music that was playing, seeing him lay waste to the skinnies on the roof.. that scene just went to gather so well. Erica Bana captured that Delta character and persona better than William Fitchner.
That scene is awesome, I loved Eric Bana in the movie. I'm excited to see how he'll be in Lone Survivor, though one of the best parts about BHD for me was that when I first saw it, I hadn't really seen any of the actors in any other movies except for Josh Hartnett. I couldn't stand him in the 2 other movies I'd seen with him and he was a very different character in this one though so it was nice not to see the Terminator as a Ranger or something like that. Did you guys know that bin Laden claimed responsibility for that whole battle on at least one semi-private occasion? That kind of blew my mind when I read it for the first time.
You missed da joke! ;)
Interesting comments also. I didn't know Japan was afforded any conditions to their surrender. Allowed as some small way they could save face? Thought I knew my WWII history fairly well (not an expert by any means) but that one escaped me. Had thought it was an unconditional surrender.
We got a "conditional" unconditional surrender.
Sadly we cut LOTS of deals with the Japanese, the worst being the one where we gave full immunity to those at Unit 731 in exchange for their data.
We then participated in a complete lie which suggested the Emperor was not directly involved in the war and had no knowledge of war crimes. We compounded this lie by parading him around like some hero who saved Japan for the rest of his life.
Major war criminals went on to successful political careers in post war Japan in a way that would have amazed the Germans.
So... you guys are totally gonna make fun of me.
I've never seen Black Hawk Down. Which is weird, because I used to own it.
I never saw the movie either for what it's worth.
Magic_Salad0892
01-23-13, 18:20
I never saw the movie either for what it's worth.
Now THAT really surprises me.
I never saw the movie either for what it's worth.
That actually surprises me.
We got a "conditional" unconditional surrender.
Sadly we cut LOTS of deals with the Japanese, the worst being the one where we gave full immunity to those at Unit 731 in exchange for their data.
We then participated in a complete lie which suggested the Emperor was not directly involved in the war and had no knowledge of war crimes. We compounded this lie by parading him around like some hero who saved Japan for the rest of his life.
Major war criminals went on to successful political careers in post war Japan in a way that would have amazed the Germans.
Thanx for the info dump.
Funny how just reading the thread title can bring up emotions before I even opened this thread. It's just a moment in time many of us (even if we weren't there) recognize as something that is undoubtedly heroic and completely admirable.
These are the men who should be viewed with the deepest respect by the public. People want to be a sports star or be on a reality show and all this other superfluous crap. No, these two men.....derserve everything the public gives to others who wouldn't dare even step foot on Somalian soil. Much less die for a fallen brother.
-Jax
PA PATRIOT
01-23-13, 19:00
I'M a bit of a military buff myself and have over the years been reading up on every CMH and DSC winner since WW1 and some of the actions taken by these men were nothing short of astounding.
Currently I'm reading of recipients during the Korean war and one event truly got me emotional were a single Army Ranger took on a delaying action against a entire battalion of North Koreans for over 30 minutes holding them at bay so the rest of his unit could escape.
Un-"f"-ing believable the bravery of this Ranger who was listed as MIA and never made it home.
Just goes to show the total selfless commitment many in the armed services are willing to take every day in the combat zone.
Funny how just reading the thread title can bring up emotions before I even opened this thread. It's just a moment in time many of us (even if we weren't there) recognize as something that is undoubtedly heroic and completely admirable.
These are the men who should be viewed with the deepest respect by the public. People want to be a sports star or be on a reality show and all this other superfluous crap. No, these two men.....derserve everything the public gives to others who wouldn't dare even step foot on Somalian soil. Much less die for a fallen brother.
-Jax
Unfortunately such men are often "lost" doing what other men are not capable of doing. The few that survive are grossly outnumbered by those who can't even comprehend the mindsets of such men.
Which of course explains 95% of everything you see.
I could only dream of having a portion of the heart that men like these show when it really comes down to it. I have nothing but the highest level of respect for these and other men like them who have the testicular fortitude to lay their life on the line knowing that they may not come out of it. Simply amazing.
I was a toddler when the BHD incident took place.
I've read the book, 3-4 times. I've seen the movie countless times. The determination and love that the men showed in a serious situation has always left me awe-struck.
It is sad that we don't celebrate men like those mentioned on a national level.
I'll be on the lookout for the most recent edition of BHD.
Off Topic:
Steyr, I noticed that you have the Sepp Allerberger book about snipers in the Eastern Front.
I read that on New Years day, the whole thing. Very interesting and informative, but also very gut wrenching and messed up.
Those SEALs who roped down to their certain death in order to protect Durant (?spelling) were absolutely amazing. It gives me chills to think of their willing sacrifice to save one of their brothers.
I've never seen the movie....I was in the Army at the time, and although I wasn't anywhere near Somalia, some of my best friends were former members of the Ranger Batts and Panama veterans, and knew those guys....I remember the pain, and the anger...and even now I'm not ready to relive that
I am glad it does tribute to such brave men
And they weren't SEALs....they were Army...
Those SEALs who roped down to their certain death in order to protect Durant (?spelling) were absolutely amazing. It gives me chills to think of their willing sacrifice to save one of their brothers.
They were Delta.
thopkins22
01-24-13, 00:04
In his defense there were SEALs involved that day...just not the snipers that roped in.
In his defense there were SEALs involved that day...just not the snipers that roped in.
IIRC they were busy at the embassy.
SeriousStudent
01-24-13, 00:13
If you have an opportunity, you may wish to read "In the Company of Heroes" by CW04 Michael Durant.
SteyrAUG, you probably already have it on your bookshelf. If you don't, I'll loan it to you.
Amazing men selflessly gave their lives in the hellish city. I was already out of the military when it happened. But it tore at my guts to hear what happened that day. :(
I was a toddler when the BHD incident took place.
Now I feel old. This was during my second tour.
...I remember the pain, and the anger...and even now I'm not ready to relive that
There were a lot of Marines who were ready to burn that city to the ground, too.
polydeuces
01-24-13, 00:27
Anyone ever read David hackworth "About Face"?
A blistering read, very revealing.
He pissed a lot of people off by calling it as it is, but what he had to say I think is now more relevant than ever.
Anyone ever read David hackworth "About Face"?
A blistering read, very revealing.
He pissed a lot of people off by calling it as it is, but what he had to say I think is now more relevant than ever.
Can't possibly top "Inside Delta" by Eric Haney where he discusses the TWO missions in the early 80s to rescue live POWs in Vietnam that were both undermined by political insiders.
Rambo movies turned such events into armchair commando fiction. I nearly popped an artery when I learned we actually had solid evidence and Delta trained for specific incident rescues TWICE.
They were Delta.
Hmm, guess I need to re-read it. Thanks for the clarification.
Moose-Knuckle
01-24-13, 03:13
IIRC there were four SEALs, two CCTS, and two PJs that were assigned to Task Force Ranger and in the thick of things.
Japan still has an Emperor... That was their one condition of surrender.
They surrendered unconditionally but the Emperor was kept a a means of pacifying the country.
ShortytheFirefighter
01-24-13, 05:22
Howard Wasdin was one of the SEAL Team 6 operators in Mogadishu and was wounded multiple times as part of the convoy, he wrote a book recently that devoted a fair about of time to what happened from his perspective both in the battle and the weeks leading up to it.
SEAL Team Six: Memoirs of an Elite Navy SEAL Sniper is the name of the book.
Steyr, I am out of town or I would put up a few pictures. I will do what I can when I get back, but I saw a number of books that I own as well. Loved Point of Impact (and the rest of the Swagger books). I read Doolittle's bio when I was 12 and have been in awe of him since. I have an autograph from his co-pilot on the Tokyo Raid.
Nice collection Sir!
In his defense there were SEALs involved that day...just not the snipers that roped in.
True, although the movie fails to show that. I don't remember if the book mentions them or not but my dad told me about one of them that he worked with a little.
Howard Wasdin was one of the SEAL Team 6 operators in Mogadishu and was wounded multiple times as part of the convoy, he wrote a book recently that devoted a fair about of time to what happened from his perspective both in the battle and the weeks leading up to it.
SEAL Team Six: Memoirs of an Elite Navy SEAL Sniper is the name of the book.
Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
Actually, that sounds a lot like what I was told. Any idea what his wounds were? I seem to remember being told that he was shot in both legs...
ETA - Huh. Same guy. Did he mention anything in the book about the helicopter crash he was in?
ShortytheFirefighter
01-24-13, 13:07
True, although the movie fails to show that. I don't remember if the book mentions them or not but my dad told me about one of them that he worked with a little.
Actually, that sounds a lot like what I was told. Any idea what his wounds were? I seem to remember being told that he was shot in both legs...
ETA - Huh. Same guy. Did he mention anything in the book about the helicopter crash he was in?
I can't remember at the moment. I do recall that he took multiple hits in the legs and in BHD there is a mention of him with his legs through the windshield of a shot up Humvee.
I've meet a few people in the course of my career that were involved with that incident, all good men, and it’s a shame how COL Steele ended his career.
BrigandTwoFour
01-24-13, 13:23
Anyone ever read David hackworth "About Face"?
A blistering read, very revealing.
He pissed a lot of people off by calling it as it is, but what he had to say I think is now more relevant than ever.
I read it a few years back. It was a gift from a childhood friend of mine who died last year (assigned to NSWG 2 in VA beach).
Very good read, affected my perspective on a lot of things.
I have nothing but respect for those who served and those who continue to sacrifice for others... but from what I've heard, there is some controversy over what actually happened that day, with respect to the title of the thread.
While I really enjoyed both the book and the movie, I don't really trust that the MOH write-up or the film are 100% true.
I'm curious what those who were there have to say about it.
The scene that makes me water up (without fail) is when Gen. Garrison gets on his hands and knees to clean up his soldiers blood from the floor at the end of the film. That to me is one of the most powerful images of true leadership (that I know of), portrayed in film.
I have nothing but respect for those who served and those who continue to sacrifice for others... but from what I've heard, there is some controversy over what actually happened that day, with respect to the title of the thread.
While I really enjoyed both the book and the movie, I don't really trust that the MOH write-up or the film are 100% true.
I'm curious what those who were there have to say about it.
The scene that makes me water up (without fail) is when Gen. Garrison gets on his hands and knees to clean up his soldiers blood from the floor at the end of the film. That to me is one of the most powerful images of true leadership (that I know of), portrayed in film.
What don't you believe?
What don't you believe?
That what was shown (asking to go in multiple times, being clear on the lack of exfil options) was actually what happened.
polydeuces
01-24-13, 14:49
I read it a few years back. It was a gift from a childhood friend of mine who died last year (assigned to NSWG 2 in VA beach).
Very good read, affected my perspective on a lot of things.
Same here. His view was educational and made me see a few things different.
One in particular that stood out was his argument that compulsory military service was one of the better things for the armed forces, in that it kept the system fresh and honest.
Citizens serving for what, 18 months, are not interested in their future in the service, and as such don't give a rats ass if they piss anyone off by calling bullshit when they see it.
A strong argument, one of the many, for reinstating military service for citizens.
But I'm going off topic....;)
That what was shown (asking to go in multiple times, being clear on the lack of exfil options) was actually what happened.
Actually Bowden was granted significant access and there was a forum dedicated to those who were there which was populated by many involved in the incident and I never once heard anyone suggest that anything other than that happened.
I'm sure there are classified elements that we were never made privy to, but I don't have any reason to doubt the Shugart / Gordon story.
Actually Bowden was granted significant access and there was a forum dedicated to those who were there which was populated by many involved in the incident and I never once heard anyone suggest that anything other than that happened.
I'm sure there are classified elements that we were never made privy to, but I don't have any reason to doubt the Shugart / Gordon story.
I agree as well, there is significant recorded information (video, audio) from the event and there isn't any reason to doubt the accuracy of the book. With all the assets on station I imagine there is video of the snipers final battle as well.
The movie is a good recreation of the book, but realize that they simplify some of it / combine some characters to make it easier to follow as a movie.
Durant's book is very good as well, the horror that gripped him as he realized it was just the two snipers and not the CSAR bird (which had already roped their team into the first crash sight). Then after both snipers were killed and he expected to die...
Fernando Coelho
01-31-13, 08:05
In sitting down with Paul Howe we learned many interesting things regarding Oct. 3-4, 1993. Situations that took place between commanders that didn't help matters and radio transmissions for help that went unanswered. The interview was long, but the information is well worth it. We will have the Blu-ray/DVD set (http://www.panteaoproductions.com/products/battle-black-sea) out next month.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-31-13, 09:48
Read the book and saw the movie. One thing I didn't understand was it seemed like the snipers didn't get any air support during the fight at the crash soyeWe're all the aircraft tasked with something else. Did they get support but it didn't make a difference??"
They requested AC-130 support pre-mission, but it was denied.
I have nothing but respect for those who served and those who continue to sacrifice for others... but from what I've heard, there is some controversy over what actually happened that day, with respect to the title of the thread.
While I really enjoyed both the book and the movie, I don't really trust that the MOH write-up or the film are 100% true.
I'm curious what those who were there have to say about it.
The scene that makes me water up (without fail) is when Gen. Garrison gets on his hands and knees to clean up his soldiers blood from the floor at the end of the film. That to me is one of the most powerful images of true leadership (that I know of), portrayed in film.
It's an emotional moment for sure, but it's not leadership, it's guilt, sadness, frustration, anger, and the human need to do something with your own hands to help.
Leadership was questionable at that moment... anyone who saw it would be inspired, but a general has so much to do and so many responsibilities that he should rightfully delegate that to someone with less of a strategic importance.
I'm not saying he was a bad leader, just saying that the particular moment wasn't necessarily supposed to show his leadership, but rather his humanity.
I have nothing but respect for those who served and those who continue to sacrifice for others... but from what I've heard, there is some controversy over what actually happened that day, with respect to the title of the thread.
While I really enjoyed both the book and the movie, I don't really trust that the MOH write-up or the film are 100% true.
I'm curious what those who were there have to say about it.
Can you quantify these statements? You "heard" something, but not from "those who were there".
So who'd you hear it from?
Edit - I know the movie was an adaptation of the book and not everything/every character was described, but I see no reason for there to be anything other than the truth portrayed / awards submitted for actual actions in combat.
Moose-Knuckle
01-31-13, 15:05
In sitting down with Paul Howe we learned many interesting things regarding Oct. 3-4, 1993. Situations that took place between commanders that didn't help matters and radio transmissions for help that went unanswered. The interview was long, but the information is well worth it. We will have the Blu-ray/DVD set (http://www.panteaoproductions.com/products/battle-black-sea) out next month.
Thanks for the heads up, I have several of your DVDs and will add this one as soon as its out.
It's an emotional moment for sure, but it's not leadership, it's guilt, sadness, frustration, anger, and the human need to do something with your own hands to help.
Leadership was questionable at that moment... anyone who saw it would be inspired, but a general has so much to do and so many responsibilities that he should rightfully delegate that to someone with less of a strategic importance.
I'm not saying he was a bad leader, just saying that the particular moment wasn't necessarily supposed to show his leadership, but rather his humanity.
The way it was portrayed in the film (in my opinion) was that it was "after hours" so to speak, and he wasn't needed elsewhere.
To me, it showed a gratitude for the sacrifices made under his command, and that he "wasn't above" any job that needed doing.
To me I saw a leader who did what needed to be done, and didn't hesitate to dirty his hands because he was in a position of authority.
I would agreed that were his rank needed elsewhere, that it would have been inappropriate, but with where it was placed in the story of the movie, it didn't strike me that way.
Can you quantify these statements? You "heard" something, but not from "those who were there".
So who'd you hear it from?
Edit - I know the movie was an adaptation of the book and not everything/every character was described, but I see no reason for there to be anything other than the truth portrayed / awards submitted for actual actions in combat.
See Fernando's post above.
You know it's funny- out of the whole movie, this is the only line I remember....
Steyr, you've got some interesting books.
Looks like I'll have to add yet more to my already mile long list.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-01-13, 09:45
Read the book and saw the movie. One thing I didn't understand was it seemed like the snipers didn't get any air support during the fight at the crash soyeWe're all the aircraft tasked with something else. Did they get support but it didn't make a difference??"
They requested AC-130 support pre-mission, but it was denied.
I was thinking more about the helicopters that they had. In the movie they make it seem like Shuggart and Gordon didn't get any supporting fire from helicopters. Is that an incorrect assumption, or was the area so hot with RPGs that the helos had to back off?
As for memorable lines, there is that one line from that woman- wait, check that there are no women in that movie with lines.
"IRENE!", "I got your safety right here".
IIRC they were busy at the embassy.
Howard Wasdin (former DEVGRU) wrote about Mogadishu in his book, "SEAL Team Six: The Memoirs of an Elite Navy SEAL Sniper"
Here is an excerpt specifically about the fight:
http://www.commandposts.com/2011/10/1993-battle-of-mogadishu-a-seals-eye-view/
The way it was portrayed in the film (in my opinion) was that it was "after hours" so to speak, and he wasn't needed elsewhere.
To me, it showed a gratitude for the sacrifices made under his command, and that he "wasn't above" any job that needed doing.
To me I saw a leader who did what needed to be done, and didn't hesitate to dirty his hands because he was in a position of authority.
I would agreed that were his rank needed elsewhere, that it would have been inappropriate, but with where it was placed in the story of the movie, it didn't strike me that way.
In any case, moments like those create extreme loyalty. Like seeing a general like Patton or Rommel on the front line.
thopkins22
02-01-13, 11:00
Howard Wasdin (former DEVGRU) wrote about Mogadishu in his book, "SEAL Team Six: The Memoirs of an Elite Navy SEAL Sniper"
Here is an excerpt specifically about the fight:
http://www.commandposts.com/2011/10/1993-battle-of-mogadishu-a-seals-eye-view/
Great link. Thank you.
thopkins22
02-01-13, 11:02
The way it was portrayed in the film (in my opinion) was that it was "after hours" so to speak, and he wasn't needed elsewhere.
To me, it showed a gratitude for the sacrifices made under his command, and that he "wasn't above" any job that needed doing.
To me I saw a leader who did what needed to be done, and didn't hesitate to dirty his hands because he was in a position of authority.
I would agreed that were his rank needed elsewhere, that it would have been inappropriate, but with where it was placed in the story of the movie, it didn't strike me that way.
That may be the case...then again there were still American servicemen left behind in the city. It was a humanizing and powerful part of the film though.
To have a full picture of the event (from an unclassified non-participant view) I think you need to combine the BHD book and Durant's book "In the Company of Heros".
Things were confusing and difficult on the ground - while the movie gives a person the flavor of events, it's still a movie - aka, entertainment. Communications are never that smooth, there is always someone talking over someone else, etc.
And in both books it is plain that Garrison never talked to the two snipers who were inserted to Durant's crash sight.
Looking forward to seeing the DVD with Paul Howe's perspective of events.
CarlosDJackal
02-01-13, 14:42
One of the things people must remember is "Blackhawk Down" is a book and a movie. Nothing less and nothing more. I personally read the transcripts for the book back in early Summer of 1998. The primary purpose was to show the human experience and cost of that incident.
The author himself stated that the book, the incidents and the characters are a conglomeration of what happened. He did his best to stay true but this is not always possible. There are also some facts that, for reasons of sensitivity and so as not to participate in any character assassinations, was left out altogether.
What this means is if you were to talk to various individuals who were involved in that battle (I have been honored to have spoken with four heroes of different ranks from the different units involved); you will find out that they have related facts and information that is not in the book. And you will find out that a lot of those details actually helps explain the different cause and effect of that battle.
It is not a hit against the author or the movie producers. They must choose which details they must leave out or merge together in order to make things fit into the neat little packages that we have read or seen.
Personally, I don't care if SFC Shugart did or did not say the phrase listed in this thread's title. The fact of the matter is they did try and help their brothers from the Night Stalkers as witnessed by the outcome and those present. That's good enough for me!!
One of the things people must remember is "Blackhawk Down" is a book and a movie. Nothing less and nothing more. I personally read the transcripts for the book back in early Summer of 1998. The primary purpose was to show the human experience and cost of that incident.
The author himself stated that the book, the incidents and the characters are a conglomeration of what happened. He did his best to stay true but this is not always possible. There are also some facts that, for reasons of sensitivity and so as not to participate in any character assassinations, was left out altogether.
What this means is if you were to talk to various individuals who were involved in that battle (I have been honored to have spoken with four heroes of different ranks from the different units involved); you will find out that they have related facts and information that is not in the book. And you will find out that a lot of those details actually helps explain the different cause and effect of that battle.
It is not a hit against the author or the movie producers. They must choose which details they must leave out or merge together in order to make things fit into the neat little packages that we have read or seen.
Personally, I don't care if SFC Shugart did or did not say the phrase listed in this thread's title. The fact of the matter is they did try and help their brothers from the Night Stalkers as witnessed by the outcome and those present. That's good enough for me!!
I can add to the above in a minor way, I spoke with a member of a tier 1 unit that in the thick of it (he's mentioned in the book) over beers, and although we didn't get into any great details he did say the book got it essentially correct with various details and or people left out for reasons you cover above.
No discussion on Mr. Shugart, as I asked no specifics, so no comment regarding that. Any book of such a sensitive nature I expect as you say, it to be a "conglomeration of what happened"
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-01-13, 20:15
A truly inspiring story, Men like this I have always looked to as heroes. I am honored to be able to correspond with men who stood next to them here on this site every day.
Great book, Great movie. I still have both and have re-read and seen again.
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