View Full Version : Local PD switches from Glock to Sig
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/jan/23/kpd-switching-to-higher-caliber-service-weapons/
In light of recent problems with new Glocks (or alleged problems), I'd like to start a discussion on the above. In pacticular the pros and cons on this switch. Of course I'd like to hear from those with experience with both.
I have experience with both but I'd like a larger data base.
Five_Point_Five_Six
01-25-13, 06:45
Glock's have a 4 year life span? I guess nobody told that to my 15 year old, 50,000 round count Glock 19, or my 13 year old Glock 23.
Not that Sig is a downgrade, but their reasoning for switching is ridiculous.
The Glock's I've owned, and the Sig's I've owned were nothing but reliable. I ran my early gen3 G19 hard every year without fail. My Glock 23 didn't get as much action due to owning it during a period where I was underemployed and had lots of medical bills from my youngest child, but it was dead nuts reliable.
When I got my first Sig, I listened to too many internet commando's and I kept it lubed like a Saigon whore thinking it wouldn't run if I didn't. I eventually got smarter, and began cleaning and lubing it in a reasonable manner and it still ran 100%. Mags were expensive, the gun was big, bulky, heavy, and the hammer would poke me in the love handle when sitting, but it was a great gun too. I just couldn't warm up to the DA/SA trigger.
Amp Mangum
01-25-13, 06:46
What .45 Sig did they go with?
OUT OF THE FRYING PAN..
AND INTO THE FIRE! :sarcastic:
Five_Point_Five_Six
01-25-13, 06:53
What .45 Sig did they go with?
I would guess one of the 4,897 variants of the P220 based upon the description in the article.
Five_Point_Five_Six
01-25-13, 06:54
OUT OF THE FRYING PAN..
AND INTO THE FIRE! :sarcastic:
Yeah I don't have much experience with the all Exeter NH built Sig's, but I've heard from a few die hard Sig fans that they are not the same Sig that they used to be.
So KPD trades in hundreds of 10 year old Glocks, a boatload of ammo and gets new guns for $13,500? The Chief should just be honest and say that "it's the economy stupid" because that's what it is.
We are switching from Sig to Glock
Littlelebowski
01-25-13, 07:33
Would be interesting if it's the new 227.
Someone with influence likes Sig Sauer better than Glock.
SWATcop556
01-25-13, 08:04
Someone with influence likes Sig Sauer better than Glock.
This is usually the reason many decisions are made in most departments. You get someone in a position that thinks they know anything and everything. They are even more disastrous when they have this mentality AND won't listen to any other qualified opinions.
What .45 Sig did they go with?
SWAT gets Sig 1911s (I don't know which model) while the rest get 220Rs.
With the current ammo shortage, the Chief will soon learn that he can't provide the necessary quantity of .45 training ammunition or any other kind for that matter. The l.e. dealer in this case will make tons of money on the trade-in "bullets" which will be sold on the desperate and hungry market we now see. Ditto for the trade-in Glocks and magazines.
But Rausch noted the Glock has a life of four years while the Sig Sauer is expected to perform for 10 years.
Rausch said the .45-caliber pistols will provide more stopping power.
I think these two statements tell you everything you need to know about why they're making the change. :rolleyes:
The chief said hollow-point, 230-grain ammunition for the .45-caliber weapons will be made special for the Police Department.
So they're getting specially made ammo too? None of the readily available, high-quality duty ammo that's already out there is good enough for them?
Cheif Wiggam didn't address KNOCK DOWN power though! :confused:
diving dave
01-25-13, 10:18
stupid. My PD is also making the transition to Glocks from Sig..For years our issue pistol was the 226, which over all isn't a bad gun.The finish on them,however, sucks. Ive seen some some get rusty sitting in a holster.(and yep its the officers fault):D
brickboy240
01-25-13, 10:20
So....it appears that the SIG rep took the chief deep sea fishing or maybe gave him Super Bowl tickets?
LOL
10 year old Glocks are HARDLY worn out.
Although my own 1980 made P220 has been trouble free...I have heard a number of stories about the P220 being the most troublesome of SIG's P-Series guns.
Not a good move...not at all.
-brickboy240
On the plus side, more police trade-ins for us!
thopkins22
01-25-13, 11:01
SEALs. Only better 'cause it's the almighty .45ACP.
:rolleyes:
when i 1st started with my dept we were allowed to purchase, at a discount, either Sigs 226 or 229 in 9mm. I had carried a Sig 226 for a little while and was not a fan thanks to the size and weight so I went with the 229. It functioned reliably but was just did not carry well. In 2007-08 we switched to Glock 40s. We were given the option to purchase either 22s or 23s and could purchase a 27 for backup. I had not shot Glocks up to that point other than a time or 2. From the start I loved the switch. I went with the 22 because I have larger hands and it just felt better. I loved the fact there was 1 trigger pull instead of the Da/sa our old Sigs had. The trigger was much better plus it just carried better. Also mags, which we must purchase on our own if we use more than the 2 supplied with the gun were a lot cheaper and easier to find. I have been packing that same early gen 3 22 for over 5 years now. I have over 25,000 rds thru it and it shoots better now than ever before. I purchased a 27 in about 09 and carry it off duty and as a backup. I would hate to switch from Glocks but would hate it even worse if it was to SiIgs just my opinion
What a ****in' retard.
I wouldn't own a Glock in .40. after owning a G23 and having the cases belly out so bad they can't be reloaded, I sold it and never looked back...
theblackknight
01-25-13, 12:56
I wonder what Chief Bubba's qual will be with his new custom ammo.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
I hope they had officers with minimal skills involved in the evaluation of the Sig Sauer. That will be the acid test for the potential for success.
The agency must have a pretty good budget, because there are a lot of costs on top of the purchase of service pistols related to transitioning from one make/model pistol to another. You have the cost of the pistols, spare parts, armorer training, ammunition for transition training, personnel hours expended for transition training, holsters, magazine pouches and at times a change in policy to accommodate the new service weapon.
I hope they looked long and hard at the perceived advantages of switching from Glock to Sig Sauer. It is not a small undertaking.
I hope they had officers with minimal skills involved in the evaluation of the Sig Sauer. That will be the acid test for the potential for success.
The agency must have a pretty good budget, because there are a lot of costs on top of the purchase of service pistols related to transitioning from one make/model pistol to another. You have the cost of the pistols, spare parts, armorer training, ammunition for transition training, personnel hours expended for transition training, holsters, magazine pouches and at times a change in policy to accommodate the new service weapon.
I hope they looked long and hard at the perceived advantages of switching from Glock to Sig Sauer. It is not a small undertaking.
Agreed. If Sig had the same quality as 15-20 years ago and If they chose a 9mm instead of a .45 I might be inclined understand this decision. Under the current situation I'm not sure if this will prove to be an improvement or not.
If they had chosen to go with HK, in any caliber, then I would be inclined to say "hell yes". But this situation leaves me scratching my head.
As mentioned in my OP I have had experience with both, a lot actually. But, with that said, most of that experience came when both makers were at the peak of their quality/reputation. Not long ago I sold my late production Gen3 G19 because of it's performance (tired of brass in my face and on my head). I had issues with two other Glocks years back, but with Glock costing so much less and Glock willing to fix or replace any problem pistols they were often the best/logical choice.
Fast forward twenty years and with the past several years spent by the manfactors searching for cheaper methods of production I'm not sure exactly where we stand.
I suppose time will tell how KPD feels with the switch.
Alaskapopo
01-25-13, 14:49
What a ****in' retard.
Totally agree. No way I would carry a Sig today.
Pat
I wonder how long it will take for them to switch back...
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
morbidbattlecry
01-25-13, 15:00
OUT OF THE FRYING PAN..
AND INTO THE FIRE! :sarcastic:
These guys like to live dangerously.
Totally agree. No way I would carry a Sig today.
Pat
What would be your first choice?
If I were one of those officers, I would not be happy. My first pistol was a P226, 20 years ago. Still have it. Nothing wrong with it, I just prefer Glock in every way that matters to me. Weight, pointing, comfort and ergonomics, round count, simplicity during disassambly and reassembly, etc... Sounds like someone sold the chief a bill of goods and he bought it.
brickboy240
01-25-13, 15:21
Can't wait to see those 40 Glock police trade in mags hit the market...we need them right now!
LOL
I guess I don't have the dislike of sig as many do on here(I love my p220) but still I wonder about the total cost of the switch over.
I wouldn't own a Glock in .40. after owning a G23 and having the cases belly out so bad they can't be reloaded, I sold it and never looked back...
Have you heard of the Redding GRX die? It removes the belly with ease. I have two 5 gallon buckets with cleaned, processed brass ready to reload.
Totally agree. No way I would carry a Sig today.
Pat
I was callin' him a retard for saying that a Glock only lasts for five years and a 45 has mucho "STOPPING POWER".
Those are idiotic statements that no one with any credibility would ever say.
I'm a Glock guy but I carry a P229 about half the time.
I have no delusions of it being better than a Glock, there's just some times when it better suits my application. And a DA first pull has just never been any disadvantage for me, I guess I'm lucky like that...
It would appear that someone clearly had an agenda in the selection process.
I know a former CLEO who valiantly tried to switch his agency from their existing 40 Auto Glocks to SIG product(s). His underlying motivation was to be more like a couple of agencies he thought supremely prestigious and who carried SIGs. Oh yeah, and that he desperately wanted to work for but couldn't get through the front door of.
Another agency ended up with SIGs because 1) it was not the brand the organization was carrying and line officers wanted to get away from, and 2) it was not a Glock, which senior leadership wasn't going to have no matter what, despite input from the line, cost, and shooter performance.
None of the above is a comment on the worthiness of a SIG, just the drama in LE "testing", selection, and purchasing. If I couldn't carry my Glock, I would carry certain SIGs before several others.
I wouldn't own a Glock in .40. after owning a G23 and having the cases belly out so bad they can't be reloaded, I sold it and never looked back...
Sample of ONE also, but my brother owns a G22 that he bought in the mid 90s. I broke it down to put Vickers controls in it for him the other day, and asked him when the last time was that he cleaned it? Uh, I haven't. No lube either. While the gun wasn't run super hard, it has had thousands of WWB through it without fail, ever. He also saves all of his brass and I have not seen any bulges.
People that I listen to (like LV) say that these guns suck, but I will be picking up a G22 trade in when they get back down to good prices. .40 is always available, and I've just seen too many insanely reliable Gen 2 G22s to not have faith in them.
We issue Glocks (Gen, 2,3,4 17's and 22's). I choose to carry a SIG (P226R), and so do most of the instructors (220's,226's).
If I wanted a Glock, I could have a couple of free ones. I passed...
We issue Glocks (Gen, 2,3,4 17's and 22's). I choose to carry a SIG (P226R), and so do most of the instructors (220's,226's).
If I wanted a Glock, I could have a couple of free ones. I passed...
S-1, what trigger group do you use? When we switched from M9s to DAK 229s members seemed to be pretty unhappy with them. I really wanted my M9 back personally.
S-1, what trigger group do you use? When we switched from M9s to DAK 229s members seemed to be pretty unhappy with them. I really wanted my M9 back personally.
DA/SA. Mine has the SRT.
Alaskapopo
01-26-13, 00:30
What would be your first choice?
Glock 17. I was able to pick for my agency. Our guns all run great.
The reason I prefer Glock are in no particular order.
1. trigger system. Absolutely hate DA SA or the DAK. The Glock trigger while not perfect is fairly easy to learn and its consistent from shot to shot and can be tuned to be very good even with stock parts.
2. Durability. Glocks in 9mm run pretty much forever.
3. Reliability. Despite some issues some have had with Gen 4's overall the 17 is a solid gun that runs well.
4. Accuracy. Not the best out there but good enough for the intended use. For me mine is averaging about 3 inches at 25 yards.
5. Low bore axis.
Reasons I don't care for Sig and I used to be a huge fan.
1. Spotty quality control of late. Sig used to make pistols as reliable as revolvers but more and more lemons seem to be getting made these days.
2. High bore axis.
3. DA SA or DAK trigger system.
If you get a reliable Sig its a great thing and one of the best of the DA SA breed but your chances of getting a lemon are higher now.
I tried the SRT at the NRA show and really liked it. Before I got so into Glock's I really like the da/SA sigs. They seem to be a really forgiving pistol and you can't argue with their track record.
S-1, what trigger group do you use? When we switched from M9s to DAK 229s members seemed to be pretty unhappy with them. I really wanted my M9 back personally.
Mine is DA/SA with SRT.
The only folks that I know of that carry DAK SIGs are the ones that have to carry them. I know several ICE Agents that carry DAK SIGs, but have never talked "guns" with them, as they are not gun people, which can be said about the vast majority of FEDs.
askani79705
01-26-13, 00:48
I believe they do "wear" out in 4 years.It probably takes the average officer in that dept. that long to get 5-7k rnds through it. Nothing that the recommended spring changes won't fix.
So the Glocks where out in only four years and they bought theirs in 2002. So what have they been using for the last six years?
Meh, several things...
A.) Blanket sidearm changes in an agency are driven by imperfect politics. "Blanket" being every officer HAS to use THAT pistol, no options or later approvals by Admin.. Sometimes, it is actually a choice driven by officer polling....
B.) The G22/23s I've run have always been a fail: not that there were FTF/FTEs etc., but that those particular pistols just did not feel right in training day scenarios, even after a couple thousand rounds. Something I could not put my finger on, and I was not going to spend time/money to figure it out either.
C.) The SIG 2xx Classic series is easier to shoot well, compared to Glock. Retro fit the SRT into any of them, and you've got sliced bread. Would I want to carry one for a shift? Nope. Heavy compared to the winner there: G19.
D.) 5 mags of .45 for LEO duty? 4 on belt + 1 in gun, I'm assuming...woof. More weight, and lost room on the duty belt.
E.) Equipment budget: use it or lose it. Spend the money or lose it in your next budget cycle.
I'd have gone for an exchange with Glock LE Services: 22s for 17s/19s, and give the Officers a choice of which to carry. However, it's kind of cool that there's officers getting exposure to another brand name of service pistol, and experience. Always a good thing.
wesshipman
01-26-13, 12:32
Rumor has it that my pd is considering switching from Sig to Glock. I am hoping that this is true.
My sig feels like a brick, and I am not a fan of DA/SA. Glock's are cheaper from the get go.
I know that San Antonio PD is currently switching from Glock 22 to the M&P .40.
Have you heard of the Redding GRX die? It removes the belly with ease. I have two 5 gallon buckets with cleaned, processed brass ready to reload.
doing it is one thing. trusting it is another...
Sample of ONE also, but my brother owns a G22 that he bought in the mid 90s. I broke it down to put Vickers controls in it for him the other day, and asked him when the last time was that he cleaned it? Uh, I haven't. No lube either. While the gun wasn't run super hard, it has had thousands of WWB through it without fail, ever. He also saves all of his brass and I have not seen any bulges.
People that I listen to (like LV) say that these guns suck, but I will be picking up a G22 trade in when they get back down to good prices. .40 is always available, and I've just seen too many insanely reliable Gen 2 G22s to not have faith in them.
I'm not making this up. if you haven't seen case bulges in Glock .40 it may be because they have changed but my G23 was a '95 version and those were made with unsupported chambers. case bulging was a well known phenomenon and was part of the the reason that .40 Glocks got a reputation for KBs...
Most purchase decisions are driven by one champion that controls the evaluations and the feedback loop, and the evaluation usually goes the way he started to prove out at day one.
95% of the participants really don't give a shit one way or the other as long as it works and choose not to get in the fight. I don't know that much about guns, I do know a great deal about procurement processes. One Champion for a cause, 95% complacency equals a win for the champion every time.
Therefore, support the NRA ;). That's the fight that counts.
threeheadeddog
01-26-13, 13:40
Glock 17. I was able to pick for my agency. Our guns all run great.
The reason I prefer Glock are in no particular order.
1. trigger system. Absolutely hate DA SA or the DAK. The Glock trigger while not perfect is fairly easy to learn and its consistent from shot to shot and can be tuned to be very good even with stock parts.
2. Durability. Glocks in 9mm run pretty much forever.
3. Reliability. Despite some issues some have had with Gen 4's overall the 17 is a solid gun that runs well.
4. Accuracy. Not the best out there but good enough for the intended use. For me mine is averaging about 3 inches at 25 yards.
5. Low bore axis.
Reasons I don't care for Sig and I used to be a huge fan.
1. Spotty quality control of late. Sig used to make pistols as reliable as revolvers but more and more lemons seem to be getting made these days.
2. High bore axis.
3. DA SA or DAK trigger system.
If you get a reliable Sig its a great thing and one of the best of the DA SA breed but your chances of getting a lemon are higher now.
Oh dear lord. number 2 and 3 on your list of negatives are just plain juvenile. Bore axis is a spec with very little to no real impact on shooting and DA/SA is personal not something that should be put out as a broad + or -.
Having said that my biggest issue with Sigs(and if they were to change this I would be back on the bandwagon in an instant) is the decocker is in a position that when I extend the weapon and rotate my left hand forward into the thumb forward grip I partially depress the decocker causing my first shot to NOT GO OFF. This issue is also a personal one and if that isnt someone elses experience than more power to them. I find that this happens much more often with the 220 than the wider guns just because the wider guns keep the meat of my palm off the decocker more.
My personal best split time on a target is still with a Sig and my 229 was laser accurate. I wish Sig would go to an HK rear of slide style decocker, than I would get my Sig's back.
It is also worth noting that I would likely be farrrrrrr less interested in Sigs if I wasnt currently shooting M&P's and remembering a time when I used to shoot much more accurate guns. I just need to give up and go glock.
Alaskapopo
01-26-13, 13:45
Sample of ONE also, but my brother owns a G22 that he bought in the mid 90s. I broke it down to put Vickers controls in it for him the other day, and asked him when the last time was that he cleaned it? Uh, I haven't. No lube either. While the gun wasn't run super hard, it has had thousands of WWB through it without fail, ever. He also saves all of his brass and I have not seen any bulges.
People that I listen to (like LV) say that these guns suck, but I will be picking up a G22 trade in when they get back down to good prices. .40 is always available, and I've just seen too many insanely reliable Gen 2 G22s to not have faith in them.
Having been around Glock 22's as they are very common in Law Enforcement, I would not chose to carry one. I have been forced to at past departments.
Issue include.
1. KB's most recent one I am aware of in my area was about 7 months ago with a Trooper on qualification. Blew the extractor off and ruined the magazine, and cracked part of the frame. Frame is still usable.
2. Gen 3 was not reliable with weapon lights attached. Saw this with my own eyes. This is a deal killer for me.
3. High recoil compared to 9mm guns.
Pat
Alaskapopo
01-26-13, 14:02
Oh dear lord. number 2 and 3 on your list of negatives are just plain juvenile. Bore axis is a spec with very little to no real impact on shooting and DA/SA is personal not something that should be put out as a broad + or -.
Having said that my biggest issue with Sigs(and if they were to change this I would be back on the bandwagon in an instant) is the decocker is in a position that when I extend the weapon and rotate my left hand forward into the thumb forward grip I partially depress the decocker causing my first shot to NOT GO OFF. This issue is also a personal one and if that isnt someone elses experience than more power to them. I find that this happens much more often with the 220 than the wider guns just because the wider guns keep the meat of my palm off the decocker more.
My personal best split time on a target is still with a Sig and my 229 was laser accurate. I wish Sig would go to an HK rear of slide style decocker, than I would get my Sig's back.
It is also worth noting that I would likely be farrrrrrr less interested in Sigs if I wasnt currently shooting M&P's and remembering a time when I used to shoot much more accurate guns. I just need to give up and go glock.
How long have you been shooting. My guess is not that long if you can not understand how the trigger action type and bore axis can impact your shooting? The DA SA trigger system is a handicap that can be over come to some degree but it will always slow you down on your first shot regardless of your skill or hurt your accuracy. As for bore axis you can not argue with physics. The higher the bore is above your hand the more muzzle flip you will have which means the slower your sights will be back on target. This is not arguable.
Regarding case support... GI 40 Auto barrels have had progressively greater case web support over production, as well as tighter chamber tolerances. Some are visually apparent. I've had others mic'ed and pin gauged to demonstrate the differences.
Discussion of kb!s, or catastrophic failures, shouldn't really occur without the small details that affect those events. Ammo manufacturers change their brass specs which knowingly stack tolerances to risky levels. As a result, some have had far more problems than others. Add an inexpert reloader keeping brass in service, and the problem is exacerbated.
I've personally experienced a run of .40 case failures across several Glock .40s, and seen many more. It would have been easy to blame the gun(s), but the important stuff was when you got down into the weeds.
Regarding case support... GI 40 Auto barrels have had progressively greater case web support over production, as well as tighter chamber tolerances. Some are visually apparent. I've had others mic'ed and pin gauged to demonstrate the differences.
Discussion of kb!s, or catastrophic failures, shouldn't really occur without the small details that affect those events. Ammo manufacturers change their brass specs which knowingly stack tolerances to risky levels. As a result, some have had far more problems than others. Add an inexpert reloader keeping brass in service, and the problem is exacerbated.
I've personally experienced a run of .40 case failures across several Glock .40s, and seen many more. It would have been easy to blame the gun(s), but the important stuff was when you got down into the weeds.
sorry, my comments were not intended to stoke the Glock KB fire and may not be appropriate in this thread. I only made the statement in regard to my personal dislike of the Glock in .40 due to unsupported chamber leading to case bulges. at the time of my owning one. I don't believe Glocks are ever a bad choice...
How long have you been shooting. My guess is not that long if you can not understand how the trigger action type and bore axis can impact your shooting? The DA SA trigger system is a handicap that can be over come to some degree but it will always slow you down on your first shot regardless of your skill or hurt your accuracy. As for bore axis you can not argue with physics. The higher the bore is above your hand the more muzzle flip you will have which means the slower your sights will be back on target. This is not arguable.
Pat, a lot of people with significant bonafides have stated the "high bore axis" thing is overplayed. a 1911 has a high bore axis and many people can shoot them very, very well. this can and has been be debated ad nauseum and I don't care to do that here or anywhere...
as for the DA/SA being a handicap, I believe someone won the IDPA championship using a traditional SIG competing against all other action types. this by itself does not make a trend but does indicate that any perceived disadvantages can be overcome by training - it's the indian, not the arrow...
and while the hammer fired DA/SA is perceived to be a disadvantage to striker-fired in first shot time, I believe it gives some other advantages to service carried pistols...
Alaskapopo
01-26-13, 15:14
Pat, a lot of people with significant bonafides have stated the "high bore axis" thing is overplayed. a 1911 has a high bore axis and many people can shoot them very, very well. this can and has been be debated ad nauseum and I don't care to do that here or anywhere...
as for the DA/SA being a handicap, I believe someone won the IDPA championship using a traditional SIG competing against all other action types. this by itself does not make a trend but does indicate that any perceived disadvantages can be overcome by training - it's the indian, not the arrow...
and while the hammer fired DA/SA is perceived to be a disadvantage to striker-fired in first shot time, I believe it gives some other advantages to service carried pistols...
Sorry but a 1911 does not have a high bore axis. Do I need to post some pics to show you what I mean. Its much lower than a Sigs or an HK's and only a bit higher than a Glocks. Yes it is the indian not the arrow but a good indian will do even better with a better arrow and bow.
Pat
thopkins22
01-26-13, 15:15
Pat, a lot of people with significant bonafides have stated the "high bore axis" thing is overplayed. a 1911 has a high bore axis and many people can shoot them very, very well. this can and has been be debated ad nauseum and I don't care to do that here or anywhere...
as for the DA/SA being a handicap, I believe someone won the IDPA championship using a traditional SIG competing against all other action types. this by itself does not make a trend but does indicate that any perceived disadvantages can be overcome by training - it's the indian, not the arrow...
and while the hammer fired DA/SA is perceived to be a disadvantage to striker-fired in first shot time, I believe it gives some other advantages to service carried pistols...
If we're talking people with significant bonafides...there have been quite a few that believe two different trigger pulls is a significant drawback. If the heavier and longer first pull is helping officers to make better decisions...their decision making process is happening way too late in the game and their are bigger problems that need addressing. Not sure if that's what you're talking about though.
Pat, a lot of people with significant bonafides have stated the "high bore axis" thing is overplayed. a 1911 has a high bore axis and many people can shoot them very, very well. this can and has been be debated ad nauseum and I don't care to do that here or anywhere...
as for the DA/SA being a handicap, I believe someone won the IDPA championship using a traditional SIG competing against all other action types. this by itself does not make a trend but does indicate that any perceived disadvantages can be overcome by training - it's the indian, not the arrow...
and while the hammer fired DA/SA is perceived to be a disadvantage to striker-fired in first shot time, I believe it gives some other advantages to service carried pistols...
You are correct. These people tend to be "split time nazis." :rolleyes:
As one of my Tier 1 friends would say, "When I was killing bad guys, I never looked at my split times." :D
While I do own DA/SA guns (SIG, Beretta, etc), I must admit that it takes a lot more work to shoot a DA/SA gun well VS a Striker Fired or Single Action gun. Couple this with the fact that most LE get ZERO training time with live ammo and you get a bunch of people that cannot pass their quals.
While I like metal guns, I think their days are numbered with the mass shooting public.
C4
sorry, my comments were not intended to stoke the Glock KB fire and may not be appropriate in this thread. I only made the statement in regard to my personal dislike of the Glock in .40 due to unsupported chamber leading to case bulges. at the time of my owning one. I don't believe Glocks are ever a bad choice...
No worries. Just an observation.
While I do own DA/SA guns (SIG, Beretta, etc), I must admit that it takes a lot more work to shoot a DA/SA gun well VS a Striker Fired or Single Action gun. Couple this with the fact that most LE get ZERO training time with live ammo and you get a bunch of people that cannot pass their quals.
For a given quantity of training and ammunition, most will see a ~10% difference (and more) in scores between the striker fired guns and long pull TDAs or DAOs.
as for the DA/SA being a handicap, I believe someone won the IDPA championship using a traditional SIG competing against all other action types. this by itself does not make a trend but does indicate that any perceived disadvantages can be overcome by training - it's the indian, not the arrow...
That would be Ernest Langdon, who won the 2003 CDP National Championship shooting a DA/SA SIG P220ST. Having taken a class from Ernie (who doesn't instruct frequently but if you find the chance to train with him, don't pass it up - here's an AAR (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=93238)), I'd say he's deadly regardless of what he is carrying that particular day. He had worked for Beretta, SIG and Smith & Wesson over the course of his career and successfully competed with a variety of firearms. In 2007 he placed second in CDP while shooting a S&W M&P 45 (David Sevigny took first with a Glock 21). Langdon was still sponsored by S&W when I met him in 2010 and was shooting a S&W M&P in .357 SIG.
http://www.langdontac.com/erneast13.jpg
Here's the SIG P220 'Langdon' special edition.
http://www.langdontac.com/p220-langdon-large.jpg
At the 2003 IDPA Nationals Ernest Langdon captured the “House of 1911” by taking a double-action single action SIG SAUER P220 Stainless and defeating the best names in shooting sports and their custom-built 1911s. They said it couldn’t be done. They were wrong. SIGARMS is proud to offer the Langdon Edition P220-45-EL. Designed by Langdon, this P220 is perfect for IDPA and comes with the following features: * Stainless slide & frame with integral accessory rail * Reversed two-tone Nitron® finished slide * "Ernest Langdon" slide engraving * Front slide serrations * Scott Warren design competition rear sight * Dawson Precision fiber optic front sight * Solid stainless guide rod * Short trigger * Modified (lengthened) mag catch button * Nill walnut wood grips *
I'm not making this up. if you haven't seen case bulges in Glock .40 it may be because they have changed but my G23 was a '95 version and those were made with unsupported chambers. case bulging was a well known phenomenon and was part of the the reason that .40 Glocks got a reputation for KBs...
Oh, don't think that I don't believe you, I have seen plenty of pictures to back up your statements. My sample is small, and like I said, many heavy hitters agree that Glock's in any caliber but 9mm suck. .40 Glock's were going so cheap before this craziness that I could have justified a surplus G23 and a wolf conversion barrel for a training gun.
Having been around Glock 22's as they are very common in Law Enforcement, I would not chose to carry one. I have been forced to at past departments.
Issue include.
1. KB's most recent one I am aware of in my area was about 7 months ago with a Trooper on qualification. Blew the extractor off and ruined the magazine, and cracked part of the frame. Frame is still usable.
2. Gen 3 was not reliable with weapon lights attached. Saw this with my own eyes. This is a deal killer for me.
3. High recoil compared to 9mm guns.
Pat
Agreed with all points, and it did mention Gen 2s only. The gen three light issues suck, recoil is very snappy, but I've heard too many conflicting reports on the KB issue. Do you know what ammo was involved?
OUT OF THE FRYING PAN..
AND INTO THE FIRE! :sarcastic:
This!
As Grant said, I agree that a TDA Sig takes significantly more effort to learn to shoot well. That said, I think Sig DA/SA pistols are very attractive for the following reasons:
1) They have a hammer and longer/heavier DA initial press that makes for a great appendix pistol.
2) While the DA press is longer/heavier, you get a very revolver like surprise break which is a real advantage on low probability shots and shooting one hand.
3) Sig P series pistols are extremely accurate.
4) Extra magazines are easy to carry, as the magazine is very slim.
5) The Sig 226/228/229 is incredibly easy to reload fast, as the mag well seems to swallow magazines. Hard to imagine a faster pistol to slide lock reload than a 226/228/229.
A couple items.
I handled the 227 up at SHOT and it feels like the same girth as a 226. This is accomplished by a mag design. They will not be ready for release until the second quarter. I should be one of the first to obtain one to do some heavy use testing.
I will first note that I am NOT a competition shooter. I don't have the time, but wish I did. I am 120% focused on combat or defensive shooting but I draw heavily from competition and infuse it into what I feel is a highly effective combat or defensive style. As for height over bore, I am definitely a believer in its positive or negative effects, even in my shooting genre. If others disagree, not a problem. I will say that there is a reason that we teach shooters to sink their grip as high into the backstrap as possible. It is not only for fast and accurate follow up shots, but makes engaging multiple targets quicker. By logic any weapon that allows the shooter to get their hand higher in relation to the slide without interfering with its operation will have an advantage over the mechanics or physics of the weapon under recoil.
While I am at that point in my career that I am chasing tenths or hundreths in everything I do to better myself as a shooter, I am definitely not a competition shooter and I can see my own performance improvement in shoothouses, force on force etc... There is no way that I could be convinced that a higher grip in relation to the bore axis is not an advantage, no matter how slight. Some shooters it is huge, others not as much. Skill makes up for quite a bit and I agree we should all be trying to get better. I will take every advantage that I can get, especially when there is no downside to it.
As for the Sig in particular, I carry a Sig P226 and have done so for about 12 years now. I will say that I am extremely proficient with the pistol, but I have to admit that the .40 S&W version, firing full duty loads, very much shows the negative effects of the height over bore that the Sig suffers from. I will also add that the 9mike and .45 ACP versions shoot much much better than the .40. The 9mm is almost not noticeable in difference in control vs say the Glock. For the DA / SA it takes much more skill to master it. However when one does, the difference in a DA / SA to say a Glock is almost a moot point.
Surf, thanks for your reply -- didn't realize you carried a 226. I shoot a Glock as primary, and did a day tutorial with Robert Vogel in October. Like you, Robert is obviously a big believer in bore height and getting as high as possible to gain mechanical advantage. That said, perhaps because of the weight of the 226 and the 9mm, it seems very mild shooting to me.
I just have a little Sig time, compared to other platforms, but am impressed with the Sig trigger -- both the DA and SA for the reasons I described above. Do you also feel the combination of the Sig's great accuracy and trigger is an advantage for you with low probability targets?
I have a lot of LEM time, and doing back to back testing with an HK 45, was surprised to be shooting the Sig 220 better almost as soon as I picked it up.
threeheadeddog
01-26-13, 23:28
How long have you been shooting. My guess is not that long if you can not understand how the trigger action type and bore axis can impact your shooting? The DA SA trigger system is a handicap that can be over come to some degree but it will always slow you down on your first shot regardless of your skill or hurt your accuracy. As for bore axis you can not argue with physics. The higher the bore is above your hand the more muzzle flip you will have which means the slower your sights will be back on target. This is not arguable.
I actually understand where you are coming from with this, so I am not offended(or at least not after I stepped back and took a breath:D). I am a decent shooter, I have shot the IDPA classifier in Master time with a 229(though I wasnt deep in MA qual time).
Yes I know how DA/SA affects your shooting and NO I do not believe it is a handicap. It takes practice, but that is way overplayed.
Also for the split time nazi's, I have shot a Sig at .13 splits and have never shot a split faster than .15 out of a striker fired gun.(only splits that hit the target count, and my .13 splits were on 10" plate)
Alright, can we get an adjustment on the thread?
Alaskapopo
01-26-13, 23:38
Agreed with all points, and it did mention Gen 2s only. The gen three light issues suck, recoil is very snappy, but I've heard too many conflicting reports on the KB issue. Do you know what ammo was involved?
I don't on the most recent one. Troopers usually issue one of three loads depending on who won the bid. Federal HST, Remington Golden Saber and Speer Gold Dot.
Pat
Alaskapopo
01-26-13, 23:40
I actually understand where you are coming from with this, so I am not offended(or at least not after I stepped back and took a breath:D). I am a decent shooter, I have shot the IDPA classifier in Master time with a 229(though I wasnt deep in MA qual time).
Yes I know how DA/SA affects your shooting and NO I do not believe it is a handicap. It takes practice, but that is way overplayed.
Also for the split time nazi's, I have shot a Sig at .13 splits and have never shot a split faster than .15 out of a striker fired gun.(only splits that hit the target count, and my .13 splits were on 10" plate)
Sorry my post was rude and I am glad you did not respond in kind.
Pat
threeheadeddog
01-26-13, 23:42
A couple items.
I handled the 227 up at SHOT and it feels like the same girth as a 226. This is accomplished by a mag design. They will not be ready for release until the second quarter. I should be one of the first to obtain one to do some heavy use testing.
I will first note that I am NOT a competition shooter. I don't have the time, but wish I did. I am 120% focused on combat or defensive shooting but I draw heavily from competition and infuse it into what I feel is a highly effective combat or defensive style. As for height over bore, I am definitely a believer in its positive or negative effects, even in my shooting genre. If others disagree, not a problem. I will say that there is a reason that we teach shooters to sink their grip as high into the backstrap as possible. It is not only for fast and accurate follow up shots, but makes engaging multiple targets quicker. By logic any weapon that allows the shooter to get their hand higher in relation to the slide without interfering with its operation will have an advantage over the mechanics or physics of the weapon under recoil.
While I am at that point in my career that I am chasing tenths or hundreths in everything I do to better myself as a shooter, I am definitely not a competition shooter and I can see my own performance improvement in shoothouses, force on force etc... There is no way that I could be convinced that a higher grip in relation to the bore axis is not an advantage, no matter how slight. Some shooters it is huge, others not as much. Skill makes up for quite a bit and I agree we should all be trying to get better. I will take every advantage that I can get, especially when there is no downside to it.
As for the Sig in particular, I carry a Sig P226 and have done so for about 12 years now. I will say that I am extremely proficient with the pistol, but I have to admit that the .40 S&W version, firing full duty loads, very much shows the negative effects of the height over bore that the Sig suffers from. I will also add that the 9mike and .45 ACP versions shoot much much better than the .40. The 9mm is almost not noticeable in difference in control vs say the Glock. For the DA / SA it takes much more skill to master it. However when one does, the difference in a DA / SA to say a Glock is almost a moot point.
Surf, it has been years since I shot Sig's. Since it is so hard to tell intentions over the internet I am meaning this as an honest question not something underhanded or anything like that.
I owned the 220 and 229. I always felt that the 229, while whippy because of the bore axis thing, had a very fast cycling that when I got used to it(tracking the sights on a gun that does have more flip takes some getting used to)I simply ran it faster than my previous guns. I am not really sure if the gun did indeed cycle faster or if it was just trying to track the sights through a larger motion that took the extra time to train my eyes. I guess I felt it was very similar to the difference between shooting a nice 1911 in .45 and a "fatfree" lightened .40 STI. There was more flip but faster. What is your experience?
threeheadeddog
01-26-13, 23:46
Sorry my post was rude and I am glad you did not respond in kind.
Pat
Actually it wasnt really all that rude. It was blunt and to the point. It was up to me how I took it. I have thought and likely typed similar things because lets face it most people simply have no idea what it means to run a handgun even moderately fast(I still have a long way to go). I know from your previouse posts that you practice and compete so you can likely relate.
Alaskapopo
01-26-13, 23:50
Actually it wasnt really all that rude. It was blunt and to the point. It was up to me how I took it. I have thought and likely typed similar things because lets face it most people simply have no idea what it means to run a handgun even moderately fast(I still have a long way to go). I know from your previouse posts that you practice and compete so you can likely relate.
Been a bit more blunt lately due to thinking about the current anti gun hysteria. Sorry again.
Like Surf said I want every advantage. If a Sig works for someone like S1 for example that is great. I used to love Sigs. the muzzle whip and longer trigger reset (fixed now with the SRT) turned me off on them. Picking a handgun is kind of personal and while I don't care much for DA SA the winner of production in USPSA this year used a Beretta 92. So it is the indian not the arrow. Take care.
Pat
I am not Surf, but just tonight was discussing this with a friend. He is a talented shooter (FASTest coin, Rogers Advanced, etc.) who runs Glock as primary but spent time with a 226 and 229 (both 9mm) in the last year. His view is that his 229 cycled better than his 226 with heavier, full power ammo, while the 226 dipped with heavier ammo. The 226 did fine with low PF ammo, though. He reloaded the 226 better than the 229.
While he is shooting a Glock now, he is missing the Sig pistols and will be getting more.
Another buddy, also FASTest coin holder, got that coin with a 229. He shoots a G22 and 1911 for work now, but thought he did his best shooting ever with a 9mm 229. He looked at the 227 at SHOT and was impressed as much as one can be without shooting one a bunch.
threeheadeddog
01-26-13, 23:57
I didnt know that production was won by 92(I am assuming Ben Stoeger?) this year. I havent been on be.com lately and have been out of the loop with the goings on in competition for a while to concentrate on defense type stuff(not because competition isnt relavent but because 70hr work weeks dont leave me with enough time to concentrate on competition)
Alaskapopo
01-27-13, 00:04
I didnt know that production was won by 92(I am assuming Ben Stoeger?) this year. I havent been on be.com lately and have been out of the loop with the goings on in competition for a while to concentrate on defense type stuff(not because competition isnt relavent but because 70hr work weeks dont leave me with enough time to concentrate on competition)
In the winter my practice is pretty much matches. In the summer I try to hit it harder and get out and practice. 70hr work weeks must suck unless your getting some OT then it would be good.
Pat
Surf, thanks for your reply -- didn't realize you carried a 226. I shoot a Glock as primary, and did a day tutorial with Robert Vogel in October. Like you, Robert is obviously a big believer in bore height and getting as high as possible to gain mechanical advantage. That said, perhaps because of the weight of the 226 and the 9mm, it seems very mild shooting to me.
I just have a little Sig time, compared to other platforms, but am impressed with the Sig trigger -- both the DA and SA for the reasons I described above. Do you also feel the combination of the Sig's great accuracy and trigger is an advantage for you with low probability targets?
I have a lot of LEM time, and doing back to back testing with an HK 45, was surprised to be shooting the Sig 220 better almost as soon as I picked it up.Yes, carrying the same P226 for about 12 years now. It has an ungodly amount of rounds through it. So much so, most people will not believe the round counts or barrels that I have gone through on this weapon.
The weight of the metal pistol definitely has an advantage in helping to absorb the recoil. As mentioned the P220 and P226 in 9mm do not make the weapons bore axis to feel like a negative. I will add that I am getting some quality trigger time behind the P226S in 9mm and the length and weight and I can flat out rip some amazing times with great accuracy with that pistol.
I will note that I like to run an short reset in my Sigs and with so much practice with the DA/SA I am not hampered by it at all. The only issue that I have is that with a really aggressive thumbs forward or modern combat grip, I have to be very aware of my hand placement as I cannot get as aggressive as I would like to be using the Sig because I will start to ride the decocker and get light primer strikes from time to time. I will say that I am extremely accurate with the Sig Pistols.
Surf, it has been years since I shot Sig's. Since it is so hard to tell intentions over the internet I am meaning this as an honest question not something underhanded or anything like that.
I owned the 220 and 229. I always felt that the 229, while whippy because of the bore axis thing, had a very fast cycling that when I got used to it(tracking the sights on a gun that does have more flip takes some getting used to)I simply ran it faster than my previous guns. I am not really sure if the gun did indeed cycle faster or if it was just trying to track the sights through a larger motion that took the extra time to train my eyes. I guess I felt it was very similar to the difference between shooting a nice 1911 in .45 and a "fatfree" lightened .40 STI. There was more flip but faster. What is your experience?I try not to take things on the www poorly and you have a fair question. For myself, having test this in my own shooting, I am still much quicker with a 9mm or .45 ACP in a similar platform weapon. I will say that I do know people who like the .40 S&W even in hot loads. Many will claim that they can get quicker follow ups because the recoil is faster and the sights return on target quicker just as you mention. I do not doubt their claims and that may very well be the case for you also. Everyone is different and I have no doubts this is the case, but does not work for me. I will also add however that one of my absolute favorite and most accurate pistols is an STI Tactical 5.0 in .40 S&W. Love that pistol and while I shoot a ripping bill drill and even some multiple target drills with it, I am not faster with it.
threeheadeddog
01-27-13, 07:08
The only issue that I have is that with a really aggressive thumbs forward or modern combat grip, I have to be very aware of my hand placement as I cannot get as aggressive as I would like to be using the Sig because I will start to ride the decocker and get light primer strikes from time to time.
I am so glad someone else posted this. I am just glad to see that I am not the only one. It is such a major issue for me(not firing when you pull the trigger is a big deal) that I make sure to always point it out when talkign about Sigs to people, but I have always wondered if it was something others experience with any regularity. Losing confidence due this issue alone is why I moved away from Sig.
Sorry but a 1911 does not have a high bore axis. Do I need to post some pics to show you what I mean. Its much lower than a Sigs or an HK's and only a bit higher than a Glocks. Yes it is the indian not the arrow but a good indian will do even better with a better arrow and bow.
Pat
well sorry back at'cha... but a 1911 does have a high bore axis. as does any hammer fired gun compared to striker fired. I'm surprised you don't know that...
it also has a heavy, slow moving slide (in .45) but nonetheless, it can be shot very quickly by someone who knows what they're doing.
no one denies the mechanical/physical difference exists. but that doesn't mean it makes as much difference in the real world as the marketing folks at striker fired companies want you to believe. Larry Vickers himself stated that the high bore axis thing is overplayed. he was speaking about the HK 45 at the time and no I don't have the exact quote available right now...
and I got yer pictures right here...
http://r1.cygnuspub.com/files/cygnus/image/OFCR/2009/MAY/600x400/1911handgun_10051645.jpg
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Sig_Sauer_P226_E2_08.jpg
http://sgcusa.com/images/large/HK_45C_Right_Side_A.jpg
you say your splits are faster with a Glock, etc., I believe you. but I bet I know several people who are faster than you using a high bore gun. but then you'd say they are likely faster yet using a Glock and I'd say possibly... and if they were, the difference would be measured in the very few hundredths. the only significant difference is how quickly you can align the sights back on target and press the trigger and those who shoot hammer fired guns regularly have worked out the grip and firing rhythm that allows them to do that.
and no one is going to dispute that mechanically/physiologically the DA first shot is different and slower than the subsequent SA, or even a striker fired shot. but with proper technique, the DA trigger press is begun as the gun is pressed out and the sights are brought onto the target as Earnest Langdon has demonstrated (thank you whoever posted that). and I'll bet revolver shooting Jerry Miculek has a thing or two to say about how fast a high bore, DA gun can be shot...
I'll even go so far as to say that with the SRT, the subsequent SA shots from a SIG are better than any striker fired gun I have used. I'm not a master at anything but I switch back and forth between DA/SA and striker fired guns and whichever type I shoot better is the one that I have the most time on at that point.
but this is all backscatter to the real issue so, with apologies to the original intent of the thread, I think the REAL significance of this gun swap, to the average cop who fires maybe 500 rounds/year, is training, and practice, and the spotty reliability that recent SIGs have begun demonstrating...
I am so glad someone else posted this. I am just glad to see that I am not the only one. It is such a major issue for me(not firing when you pull the trigger is a big deal) that I make sure to always point it out when talkign about Sigs to people, but I have always wondered if it was something others experience with any regularity. Losing confidence due this issue alone is why I moved away from Sig.
not an issue for me. I'm left handed... :D
Glock 17. I was able to pick for my agency. Our guns all run great.
When we transitioned to the Glock 22, I would have been fine with going to the Glock 17. What duty round are you carrying?
ATF is going from sig to glock.
I think these two statements tell you everything you need to know about why they're making the change. :rolleyes:
So they're getting specially made ammo too? None of the readily available, high-quality duty ammo that's already out there is good enough for them?
I agree...f'ing retarded. .40 vs .45 power is also rediculous. These are the same people that only shoot during mandatory quals. Probably never work on shot placement. More interested in just being on paper.
We issue Glocks (Gen, 2,3,4 17's and 22's). I choose to carry a SIG (P226R), and so do most of the instructors (220's,226's).
If I wanted a Glock, I could have a couple of free ones. I passed...
Why did you pass? Recent issues with the newer generations(ejection)?
Worst case but not the only case. (http://www.odmp.org/officer/16325-officer-jesse-kenneth-paderez)
I was able to interview a retired FI from one of the first agencies to carry the 220, a mixture of 220s and Browning BDA pistols, and it was revealed that the potential for firing when dropped was discovered by that agency. I've seen the problem in range rental pistols as well. A simple armorers inspection will reveal a weakness in the hammer return spring. While not a direct cause, it does set the stage for a pistol that may fire if dropped on it's hammer. I was able to inspect a couple hundred used 220s, traded in for Glocks, and found about a third of them with faulty hammer return springs.
TriviaMonster
01-27-13, 16:29
I would personally rather have a .40 or a 9mm as I don't care for giving up that much capacity. Even 13rds in my G23 feels a little low. My XDm(I know, I know) 9mm had 19+1 capacity and that felt about perfect.
The other thing, people who don't shoot much make me nervous with DA/SA. They put their finger on the trigger and instead of 9lbs of resistance and a long pull they get a 4lb short pull and accidentally shoot early or ND when they didn't mean to shoot at all. Rare? Yes. Shit? Happens.
I think good shooters are good shooters and they can drive any gun they want with a little practice. Cops who don't shoot often or well are no different than civvies who don't shoot often or well. In that case, I believe the striker action pistols are superior. That comes from introducing countless shooters to the range using both types of trigger mechanisms. KISS.
Its funny how we never traded a little bit of freedom of religion after the Jonestown Massacre.
I think good shooters are good shooters and they can drive any gun they want with a little practice. Cops who don't shoot often or well are no different than civvies who don't shoot often or well. In that case, I believe the striker action pistols are superior. That comes from introducing countless shooters to the range using both types of trigger mechanisms. KISS.
Best paragraph of the whole thread. I agree.
Alaskapopo
01-27-13, 21:08
well sorry back at'cha... but a 1911 does have a high bore axis. as does any hammer fired gun compared to striker fired. I'm surprised you don't know that...
it also has a heavy, slow moving slide (in .45) but nonetheless, it can be shot very quickly by someone who knows what they're doing.
no one denies the mechanical/physical difference exists. but that doesn't mean it makes as much difference in the real world as the marketing folks at striker fired companies want you to believe. Larry Vickers himself stated that the high bore axis thing is overplayed. he was speaking about the HK 45 at the time and no I don't have the exact quote available right now...
and I got yer pictures right here...
http://r1.cygnuspub.com/files/cygnus/image/OFCR/2009/MAY/600x400/1911handgun_10051645.jpg
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Sig_Sauer_P226_E2_08.jpg
http://sgcusa.com/images/large/HK_45C_Right_Side_A.jpg
you say your splits are faster with a Glock, etc., I believe you. but I bet I know several people who are faster than you using a high bore gun. but then you'd say they are likely faster yet using a Glock and I'd say possibly... and if they were, the difference would be measured in the very few hundredths. the only significant difference is how quickly you can align the sights back on target and press the trigger and those who shoot hammer fired guns regularly have worked out the grip and firing rhythm that allows them to do that.
and no one is going to dispute that mechanically/physiologically the DA first shot is different and slower than the subsequent SA, or even a striker fired shot. but with proper technique, the DA trigger press is begun as the gun is pressed out and the sights are brought onto the target as Earnest Langdon has demonstrated (thank you whoever posted that). and I'll bet revolver shooting Jerry Miculek has a thing or two to say about how fast a high bore, DA gun can be shot...
I'll even go so far as to say that with the SRT, the subsequent SA shots from a SIG are better than any striker fired gun I have used. I'm not a master at anything but I switch back and forth between DA/SA and striker fired guns and whichever type I shoot better is the one that I have the most time on at that point.
but this is all backscatter to the real issue so, with apologies to the original intent of the thread, I think the REAL significance of this gun swap, to the average cop who fires maybe 500 rounds/year, is training, and practice, and the spotty reliability that recent SIGs have begun demonstrating...
With respect you wrong on the 1911. It does have a higher bore axis than a Glock but its lower than Sigs HK etc. Its not a high bore axis gun.
Pat
remington79
01-27-13, 21:15
My friend told me that the CT state police switched from Berettas to Sig 220s. I can understand moving to a Sig but (especially) in this day and age why switch to a lower capacity weapon? Where I live the local Sheriff's Department switched from HK 45s on patrol (lack of parts and armorer support) and S&W 4506 on the jail side. The 4506 only held 8+1. A couple of years ago they switched to Glock 21 SFs. One of the things they liked was the higher mag capacity.
My friend told me that the CT state police switched from Berettas to Sig 220s. I can understand moving to a Sig but (especially) in this day and age why switch to a lower capacity weapon?
I understand your concern about magazine capacity, but I would not feel outgunned carrying a 1911 and two extra magazines for patrol or plain clothes work.
I believe that too much emphasis is placed on how much service pistol ammunition is being carried on a duty belt and too little emphasis is being placed on training for shot placement under stress. Someone will undoubtedly bring up the L.A. bank robbery incident, but in that case a rifle would be the proper tool for the job.
I understand your concern about magazine capacity, but I would not feel outgunned carrying a 1911 and two extra magazines for patrol or plain clothes work.
I believe that too much emphasis is placed on how much ammunition is being carried on a duty belt and too little emphasis is being placed on training for shot placement under stress.
Very well said. My dept allows for 100rds of practice ammo monthly...for all srvc weapons. Do you think a lot of my bro/sis take advantage of this? My guess would be 20% do.
Why did you pass? Recent issues with the newer generations(ejection)?
The #1 reason why I choose SIGs over Glocks is that they have proven to be more reliable. I have seen rails break off of Glocks, malfunctions with lights attached, Kabooms, and numerous other failures that I didn't diagnosis personally. The only failures that I have seen with SIGs is a couple of bulged barrels on a couple of early .40 P226's from a bad lot of ammo, and a few German P220's that broke small springs early in their life. My work P226R 9mm is at 30k+ rounds, and the only malfunction that I can remember is when we were doing contact drills, and the slide may have hit my vest in the process, creating 1 FTF. All of my SIGs have been VERY reliable, new or old. Plus, shooting a SIG vs Glock is like driving a Cadillac then hopping into a Geo Metro.
I tried to switch to Glocks from SIGs ( free guns are great!), but it didn't pan out for me. I personally bought two blue label Glocks, a G19 and G26. The G19, a Gen3 pre "problems", was the biggest POS service pistol that I have ever owned. Many malfunctions, and I had to move the rear sight so far to the right on the G19 to get it to shoot straight, that if I moved it any further, it would be hanging off of the slide. No, it wasn't me, as I did not have that problem with the G26. Grant has mentioned before that some Glocks did have this issue before, but I didn't inquire further.
I dedicated a whole year of shooting my ammo, and what I was allotted by my employer to Glocks. I never got to where I wanted to be. I am faster and more accurate with SIGs. Add in the "SRT" trigger on the SIGs and its a game changer, IMO. No striker fired trigger comes close to it.
remington79
01-28-13, 01:02
I understand your concern about magazine capacity, but I would not feel outgunned carrying a 1911 and two extra magazines for patrol or plain clothes work.
I believe that too much emphasis is placed on how much service pistol ammunition is being carried on a duty belt and too little emphasis is being placed on training for shot placement under stress. Someone will undoubtedly bring up the L.A. bank robbery incident, but in that case a rifle would be the proper tool for the job.
We'll have to agree to disagree on ammo. We see people strung out on meth and in the past year there have been a couple of shootings where the officers had to shoot at vehicles. Fortunately I haven't been in a gunfight but from what I have read and seen they are dynamic. You should be moving, the other person is moving, and then you have adrenaline. Even if you're a good shot all these factors are going to negatively effect one's accuracy. Then if the person is strung out you may need more rounds. Then add in the possibility of multiple attackers.
The longer you can stay in the fight and not have to stop and reload or otherwise manipulate your weapon the better your chances of being alive. I would rather have too much than too little. Some of what I said may seem far fetched to some but if Murphy's Law has already struck to where you have to use a pistol there are good odds Murphy won't stop there.
Alaskapopo
01-28-13, 01:35
I would personally rather have a .40 or a 9mm as I don't care for giving up that much capacity. Even 13rds in my G23 feels a little low. My XDm(I know, I know) 9mm had 19+1 capacity and that felt about perfect.
The other thing, people who don't shoot much make me nervous with DA/SA. They put their finger on the trigger and instead of 9lbs of resistance and a long pull they get a 4lb short pull and accidentally shoot early or ND when they didn't mean to shoot at all. Rare? Yes. Shit? Happens.
I think good shooters are good shooters and they can drive any gun they want with a little practice. Cops who don't shoot often or well are no different than civvies who don't shoot often or well. In that case, I believe the striker action pistols are superior. That comes from introducing countless shooters to the range using both types of trigger mechanisms. KISS.
Its funny how we never traded a little bit of freedom of religion after the Jonestown Massacre.
I don't think you need to have a striker to shoot well. But you should have a consistent trigger from 1st shot to last. 1911's are the best in that regard and their hammer guns.
Pat
The #1 reason why I choose SIGs over Glocks is that they have proven to be more reliable. I have seen rails break off of Glocks, malfunctions with lights attached, Kabooms, and numerous other failures that I didn't diagnosis personally. The only failures that I have seen with SIGs is a couple of bulged barrels on a couple of early .40 P226's from a bad lot of ammo, and a few German P220's that broke small springs early in their life. My work P226R 9mm is at 30k+ rounds, and the only malfunction that I can remember is when we were doing contact drills, and the slide may have hit my vest in the process, creating 1 FTF. All of my SIGs have been VERY reliable, new or old. Plus, shooting a SIG vs Glock is like driving a Cadillac then hopping into a Geo Metro.
I tried to switch to Glocks from SIGs ( free guns are great!), but it didn't pan out for me. I personally bought two blue label Glocks, a G19 and G26. The G19, a Gen3 pre "problems", was the biggest POS service pistol that I have ever owned. Many malfunctions, and I had to move the rear sight so far to the right on the G19 to get it to shoot straight, that if I moved it any further, it would be hanging off of the slide. No, it wasn't me, as I did not have that problem with the G26. Grant has mentioned before that some Glocks did have this issue before, but I didn't inquire further.
I dedicated a whole year of shooting my ammo, and what I was allotted by my employer to Glocks. I never got to where I wanted to be. I am faster and more accurate with SIGs. Add in the "SRT" trigger on the SIGs and its a game changer, IMO. No striker fired trigger comes close to it.
Wow..I suppose if I had that many problems with Glocks I would be the same way.
Its strange how exeriences can be so very different. For example...in 13 years the only issues ive seen with Glock could almost certainly be attributed to crappy ammo, ftf/fte. But really none of the issues you described.
Im not an instructor or agency armorer so perhaps if I were I would see.something else. But I shoot a lot within my agency. And during our yearly qual I have to shoot next to 30 other people on the line. Every year its a different group, so, different Glocks. Id estimate we shoot around 500rds during those quals.
I have always heard sigs are more accurate.
TriviaMonster
01-28-13, 03:24
I don't think you need to have a striker to shoot well. But you should have a consistent trigger from 1st shot to last. 1911's are the best in that regard and their hammer guns.
Pat
Good point. I meant to type single action or striker fired type as pertaining to one consistent trigger pull.
Its funny how we never traded a little bit of freedom of religion after the Jonestown Massacre.
While we are on the subject of Sig handguns, what current production Sig handguns would you reccomend?
JackyYeung
01-29-13, 00:17
Nothing from Exeter (IMO) due to quality issues.
Get an HK.
Nothing from Exeter (IMO) due to quality issues.
Get an HK.
:rolleyes:
If Sig were smart, or any other top tier handgun company for that matter, they would sell their handguns with 5 or 6 high cap mags right now.
I would consider the MA11 9mm Navy bla bla bla SRT HANDGUN. I still may never like it better than P30L or MNP Pro or even G19. But I do like to familiarize myself with all platforms.
Sig listen up, if you want my $1k for that heavy ass 9mm, I need 6 high cap mags before I would consider.
Ok, I'm done with my little off the subject mini rant. :p
Nothing from Exeter (IMO) due to quality issues. Get an HK.
First hand experience, or are you restating the information of others?
I would not dismiss the line altogether. Shoot them for confidence, inspect and PM them as scheduled, and they are capable of good work. They're not the Sig of old, but they're not paperweights either.
Unless you can get an actual German Sig don't bother. The Thing for Exeter NY is not a Sig.
For my money, I scour the pawn shops looking for Sig 226 and 228 that say "Made in W. Germany" on the slide.
TriviaMonster
01-29-13, 16:57
Unless you can get an actual German Sig don't bother. The Thing for Exeter NY is not a Sig.
For my money, I scour the pawn shops looking for Sig 226 and 228 that say "Made in W. Germany" on the slide.
If you can afford them, go for it. In MO last week I saw several W. Germans wanting $300-400 more than their NH counterparts. Of course this is a bit of a strange time.
I would agree with Papabear also, throw in 3-4 or more extra mags if you want me to walk past the P30s and PPQs or even the FNX 45 Tac.
Its funny how we never traded a little bit of freedom of religion after the Jonestown Massacre.
Just the transition to decocker will eat up significant training time. I have watched way to many people attempt to holster sigs without decocking first. Negligent discharge just waiting to happen.
Unless you can get an actual German Sig don't bother. The Thing for Exeter NY is not a Sig.
For my money, I scour the pawn shops looking for Sig 226 and 228 that say "Made in W. Germany" on the slide.
Well, that's just your opinion.
The newer guns with SS slides are much better hard use weapons. That's a fact.
Ok, they may be 'hard use' guns but I am not sure if they have improved in terms of reliability. 15-20 years ago when depts were all going wondernine the Sig USA guns had a lot of reliability problems. Why? Who knows?
The Sig USA rifles are nothing like the actual Sig military rifles. I am not sure what corners are being cut at Sig USA but they are simply not the same as the German Sigs.
So I can better evaluate your statement, do you own any recent production Sig P series pistols, and if so what models and calibers? On those pistols what approximate round counts do you have, and what problems, if any, have you experienced?
I must admit that the microcosm of internet firearms forums are often a breeding ground of bandwagonism, whether it be man loving the latest and greatest trainer or falling over ourselves with the newest part or accessory. The opposite is very very very true when it comes to hating. We love to rally around to hate and bash on that douchebag trainer or on the blasphemous upstart company trying to sour our beloved weapons with some aberration to hang off our rifles, or a company that may go through some type of internal transition. It is definitely a vicious cycle that pedals in either direction.
I too enjoy hearing first hand experiences, but I still look at the totality or the scope of singular experiences and what they might actually mean statistically speaking in the grand scheme of units on the market. I am also not ignorant enough to ignore or to discount enough first hand experiences that might suggest a pattern. However as suggested by some members here, qualifying ones posts with experiences or how we derive at our statements is key in order to determine if it is valid point of discussion or just something being regurgitated. Because we know that the internet doesn't suffer from bandwagonism. :)
Ok, they may be 'hard use' guns but I am not sure if they have improved in terms of reliability. 15-20 years ago when depts were all going wondernine the Sig USA guns had a lot of reliability problems. Why? Who knows?
The Sig USA rifles are nothing like the actual Sig military rifles. I am not sure what corners are being cut at Sig USA but they are simply not the same as the German Sigs.
Having personally carried both US and German SIGs for work and as CCW's for years, have co-workers that have done the same, and I'll include family members that carry guns for a living. I will say that they're just as reliable and much more durable than the old stamped models. Also, they require a lot less maintenance.
15-20 years ago, most SIGs being issued were still made in Germany. They weren't without fault though. Their small springs broke with more regularity, they required more maintenance, and they had terrible finishes that would rust if you walked by a water fountain. I don't recall a lot of agencies having issues when they made the switch from the P228 to the P229 many years ago. In fact, many of them still continue to happily issue the P229, such as the USSS, Air Marshals and DSS.
With communicating and reading what guys had to say, that have used both versions heavily (including "SME's" on this forum), they favor the new SS slide versions for various reasons, mainly durability. Former employees of SIG have also said that they would not choose an older stamped slide SIG over the new ones.
There seems to be a select group of folks that like to hammer on SIG whenever they can. Some even like to say that such and such Dept. is dumpings SIGs because of poor reliablity ect ect. While a few instances of that may be true (and with every other brand too), those folks spread that info to a dozen forums and people that don't know better take it as every SIG is garbage. What I find funny is, that I have asked some of these rumor guys to provide the Dept and contact info to verify that all of these issues exsist. Guess how many responses I have received? Zero (Shocking!). These same guys also like to say things like "SIG has different QC levels for their LE/mil lines compared to their civilian guns." A (recent) former employee of SIG stated on another forum, that the rumor is not true but certain contracts do call for certain things to take place such as x amount of duty rounds through a sample of guns, or triggers to be set at x pounds.
I have no experience with SIG USA rifles, but I am sure they are trying to meet a certain price point with them. They are in business to make money after all, and they are doing just that since they are one of the most successful gun manufacturers in the US right now. FWIW... I haven't heard of anything bad regarding their AR's.
I must admit that the microcosm of internet firearms forums are often a breeding ground of bandwagonism, whether it be man loving the latest and greatest trainer or falling over ourselves with the newest part or accessory. The opposite is very very very true when it comes to hating. We love to rally around to hate and bash on that douchebag trainer or on the blasphemous upstart company trying to sour our beloved weapons with some aberration to hang off our rifles, or a company that may go through some type of internal transition. It is definitely a vicious cycle that pedals in either direction.
I too enjoy hearing first hand experiences, but I still look at the totality or the scope of singular experiences and what they might actually mean statistically speaking in the grand scheme of units on the market. I am also not ignorant enough to ignore or to discount enough first hand experiences that might suggest a pattern. However as suggested by some members here, qualifying ones posts with experiences or how we derive at our statements is key in order to determine if it is valid point of discussion or just something being regurgitated. Because we know that the internet doesn't suffer from bandwagonism. :)
Truer words were never spoken.
Crow Hunter
01-30-13, 13:00
So I can better evaluate your statement, do you own any recent production Sig P series pistols, and if so what models and calibers? On those pistols what approximate round counts do you have, and what problems, if any, have you experienced?
My personal anecdotal sample of two: :D
My brother owns a Sig P226 Blackwater edition. Shoots really low for me. With a 6 O'clock hold I hit about 2 inches under the the aim point with WWB, UMC and Blazer brass 115gr ammo. Very tight grouping, I just can't see my bullet bullet hole at 15 yards unless I move the gun out of the way. :D
No functional issues that I am aware of. Doesn't shoot low for my brother, just me.
Friends Sig 226 Elite. He liked my brother's so much he went out and bought the closest he could find. His gun shot about 7-9 inches low and 5-6 inches to the right at 15 yards. Had to aim at the upper left corner of a 8.5X11 sheet of paper to even see the impact point of the rounds. To hit center you had to hold off the paper in space. Multiple people had the same results. He called Sig and they said try a different bullet weight...:rolleyes: Really? He pressed them and they took it back for warranty. I haven't shot with him since to find out what they had to fix on it, but he did say they told him there was something wrong and it was repaired.
That is my only experience with Post 2000 Sigs. I personally owned a P229, P232, P228, and P220 and none of them ever had a problem other than the P232 which had a failure to feed when a friend tried to shoot it with a thumb over revolver style grip before I could stop him. :eek: Only gun I have ever owned that has caused someone to bleed.
But they were all bought prior to my getting married in 2000, and they are all long gone now.:(
StrikerFired
01-30-13, 13:22
My agency switched from Glock 22's to Sig 220 DAK's a few years ago and now we have has several frame failures, broken parts and out of spec frames on our rarely used carry guns. Not to mention the added cost of the service parts just to do the annual inspections on the Sigs and the added cost of 45 ammo is really starting take it toll. While I can't say that "Sig Sucks" because this is my only experience with a Sig pistol, I personally won't be buying one for my self.
I personally observed numerous problems with several hundred Sig 9 mm P226R's in the 2006-2008 time frame. A nearby agency had significant issues with their Sig .40 P226R's from that same time period. P220's in .45 ACP have always been more problematic and failure prone than the 9 mm Sig's I've seen and used.
My sample is approximately 70 P226 DAK 9mms (2006 vintage) and 20 P226R DAK .357s (around 2004 vintage). No significant issues with the exception of a half dozen or so rear night sights that had the left vial go dead after a short time (which Sig replaced). After 10-15k rounds (apiece) a few of the .357s have needed some minor maintenance, a couple extractors and a trigger bar spring. Many of us have not cared for the DAK system but the guns shoot very well (just a little harder to be precise than with a DA/SA). We are changing to the Glock 35 shortly which I prefer but I have been pleased with the Sigs enough to buy one of each.
I also have a 2000ish vintage P226 .40 DA/SA that has worked great though it hasn't seen that much use (from me at least, it was a CPO). The earlier stamped Sigs we previously had worked fine but had the common rusting issues and showed a lot more wear (not just finish wear) after a few years than the SS slide ones we currently have.
I personally observed numerous problems with several hundred Sig 9 mm P226R's in the 2006-2008 time frame. A nearby agency had significant issues with their Sig .40 P226R's from that same time period. P220's in .45 ACP have always been more problematic and failure prone than the 9 mm Sig's I've seen and used.
As regards the 226 9mm issues, were the issues accuracy, reliability, small part breakage, frames or no obvious pattern?
Small parts breakages...
Sounds like a bad batch/run got out. It happens to every manufacturer...
If Sig were smart, or any other top tier handgun company for that matter, they would sell their handguns with 5 or 6 high cap mags right now.
Remember when some less noble dealers were taking the high cap mags out of the box and replacing with 10 rounders and selling the high caps that the guns came with. There would be sooo much temptation for people with that right now.
Small parts breakages...
I don't have experience with the larger Sig Sauer pistols, but I did see an extractor break on a Sig Sauer P238 during a qualification. The pistol had less than 15 shots fired through it. It makes a person think.
John Hearne
01-30-13, 20:14
Sig has had problems from multiple sources. If just one of these cropped up, it would be a non-issue, it's the culmination of all of them that makes it bad. FWIW, I've talked with people currently employed by Sig (armorers and firearms instructors) and they don't deny there have been problems. If a companies reps aren't afraid to admit there are issues, I don't know why others can't.
1) Sig needed to update the slide on the P220. Rather than design a slide from scratch, using an external extractor like the proven P226 or P229, they used a design from the Sig Pro line. While the extractor worked fine in the Sig Pro, it DID NOT work in the P220. The location of the extractor was too low and the extractor itself was very sensitive to manufacturing process problems. Too much heat treatment and it caused feeding issues. Too little and the extractor would slip and double feed. These issues are extremely well documented and the reason Sig lost so many of its P220 customers several years ago.
2) Small parts breakages. When Ron Cohen took over, he was able to dramatically lower the price of the small parts. His cost cutting methods were so effective that Sig Germany started to use these for all the small parts. As Germans lost jobs, the technical packages on a lot of parts didn't make it to the U.S. or were incomplete. This led to a lot of materials failures until Sig figured out the right specs. Sig US saved money on small parts by using overseas manufactures that may not have had the same QC.
3) Pushing MIM parts without the engineering. As part of the cost cutting, Sig started using MIM parts where they had not previously. For instance, extractors and takedown levers were replaced with MIM parts. MIM is not inherently bad but to use them well, you must engineer the design to do so. Thus we saw a string of extractor failures before Sig abandoned MIM for that part. The entire E2 slide design is Sig re-engineering the slide design to work with MIM parts.
4) Pushing out stainless frame guns. When Sig decided to release stainless frame P220s, they didn't re-engineer anything for the change. It quickly became apparent that the stainless frames broke small parts more quickly than the aluminum frames. (Apparently, the recoil wave moved through the stainless frame in a different fashion) If you'll notice, Sig doesn't push stainless P220s much any more. I think they are down to one model.
5) Poor response to problems. Sig has not been very forthcoming about problems with their products. They turned out a batch of takedown levers that were incorrectly manufactured. The original spec called for riveting and welding the part. The vendor only riveted. This led to takedown levers failing after only 100 rounds. (I personally had one of these levers). Sig did not address this issue until an agency did a national broadcast via NCIC about the problem.
If you bought a 9mm Sig, you'll probably never have a problem. 9mm places very little stress on the gun and they will last forever, even with shoddy parts. P220's are another matter entirely. Whether the poor internal extractor design or accelerated parts failures in the frames, if you shoot them enough they will break. My earliest parts failure in a stainless P220 was a broken takedown lever at ~8,000 rounds)
The only bright news in all of this is that Sig seems to have outgrown most of these problems. They now know how to farm out the small parts properly. They've re-engineered the guns to take advantage of the cost savings of MIM parts. Hopefully, Sig has learned from its mistakes and can move forward with better product.
I hope SIG has fixed these issues. My PD just decided to replace our 10 year old SIGs with......more SIGs. These have to be ordered directly from the factory, as there are no more SIG distributors in our area.
John H, excellent post!
Anecdotally, it seems 2006-2010 were not Sig's glory years when it came to quality, especially on the .40 and .45 pistols, but I have also heard that Sig has improved quality of the P series recently.
Is it your sense that the current production 220's are now good to go?
Psalms144.1
01-30-13, 20:57
Funny how this cropped up today...
This morning I was talking with a fellow firearms instructor in my agency, and he reported that, over the last several years since our transition to the P229R and P239 (both in DAK, both in .40) he's noticed a significant increase in the number of non-shooter/non-ammunition related failures during qualifications. I didn't think to ask specifics - I've been in a "detached" detail since 2006, and have been around Glock & HK shooters exclusively.
Then, this afternoon, another former co-worker called me up to shoot the breeze. He's the Chief of a smallish PD in Texas, and he told me that his PD dropped their Glocks in .40 (primarily 3rd Gen G22s) in favor of P220s. He related that, across the board, his officers' qualification scores have gone up, and that everyone seems pleased with the trade. To date, they haven't had any problems with their P220s, and the extra weight and reduced capacity apparently aren't bothering his officers.
So, I guess you'd call that a balanced spreadsheet, just in my little microcosm. Still, I'd take a properly running Glock in 9mm over any Sig, any day - but that's just me.
Regards,
Kevin
SNIP
So SIG has had some small parts and (re)design issues, just like every other comparable manufacturer, such as S&W and Glock. Got it.
As you stated, I rarely see "my SIG sucks posts" and believe that some things have been squared away. I think SIG was at its worst around 2008 when that first rush hit. I remember seeing some unhappy people on SIG dedicated forums around that time, but very rarely see it now. What I do see is a lot of though, is the same people on a dozen forums that regurgitate the same crap from years ago. Some of that is evident in this thread...
ETA... Just like other manufacturers, certain models of SIGs are more durable/reliable than others.
As you stated, I rarely see "my SIG sucks posts" and believe that some things have been squared away. I think SIG was at its worst around 2008 when that first rush hit. I remember seeing some unhappy people on SIG dedicated forums around that time, but very rarely see it now. What I do see is a lot of though, is the same people on a dozen forums that regurgitate the same crap from years ago. Some of that is evident in this thread...
If you don't have the inclination to follow this stuff in detail, but are even reasonably intuitive, you can get a quick read on what is going on just by scanning the common titles of threads. For example, when the "M&P accuracy" and "Glock reliability" threads go for pages and months, you don't even need to be in law enforcement to recognize this clue.
We have been directed to perform inspections of all of our service issued SIG-Sauer P229DAKs after the documentation of several catastrophic failures across the country. Apparently, the spring pocket on the bottom of the slides are developing cracks, failing, and separating from the pistol. We have had this happen with one pistol locally. If you are running a P Series in .40 S&W you may wish to expect yours also.
We have been directed to perform inspections of all of our service issued SIG-Sauer P229DAKs after the documentation of several catastrophic failures across the country. Apparently, the spring cup on the bottom of the slides are developing cracks, failing, and separating from the pistol. We have had this happen with one pistol locally. If you are running a P Series in .40 S&W you may wish to expect yours also.
This is not a complete surprise. The .40 S&W is a high pressure cartridge and it really beats up a service pistol. I inspected roughly 70 Glock 22 pistols each year and it was not uncommon to replace one or two locking block pins.
So..... to recap:
9mm Sig 226 and 228 marked "Made in West Germany" are good to go while everything else is a crap shoot.
No more or less valid than "Glock pistols made after 2009 are unreliable and M&P pistols made after the 9C was introduced are inaccurate."
No more or less valid than "Glock pistols made after 2009 are unreliable and M&P pistols made after the 9C was introduced are inaccurate."
I was thinking of the Sig discussion in those terms (Gs in 9mm, M&Ps). I respect the opinion and experience of the folks running/maintaining Sigs, esp those in this thread, and defer to them. Still, I ask...
Is it that really that systemic with the Sigs? Do they truly warrant a heavier qualification than "buy one and shoot it?"
wesshipman
01-31-13, 16:09
My Department currently issues Sig P226.
As of a few days ago they are strongly considering allowing us to choose between the Sig P226 and Glock 22, so some officers may choose to keep there Sig's and others can choose the Glock 22.
I am ecstatic about this. I will definitely choose the Glock 22, as the magazines will work with my bug (glock 27).
I've owned (and own) both and know its a matter of preference but I'll take a sig all day long over a Glock.
Wow, this sure has the gLoCker's panties in a bunch.
Who really cares if they are switching or why they are switching. There are a LOT of alternatives on the market, most of them are better.
Who's panties are in a wad? Some like Glock some like Sig. Pretty simple.
Wow, this sure has the gLoCker's panties in a bunch.
Who really cares if they are switching or why they are switching. There are a LOT of alternatives on the market, most of them are better.
Really? I'm a Glock guy but my experience with recent Sigs has been good. Some of us are able to understand that just because you like a particular gun does not mean you hate all the others or all others suck. Too many people are quick to excuse issues with their pet gun and exaggerate issues with the ones they don't care for.
The pistols probably average 200 rounds a year - so four years is 800 rounds.
My main carry Glock is 25 years old.
Mostly likely they just wanted 45s, but virtually all LE should change to 9mm. Why? Easier to shoot accurately, and shot placement is what matters.
PD I retired from initially when I joined used S&W 9mm. Personally did not care for them, we started to have various problems with them as time went by. We then switched to the Sig P220 and they still use them today. I loved the switch as did most of the guys I worked with. I personally shot better with the Sig .45 as opposed to the Smith 9mm. Can't tell you why but I did. When I was in training I used the Glock 23 and shot really well with that. But out of the three I like the Sig the best. Still have it and love it.
I've said horrible things about Sig both on here, and at the Office where we're issued P220's. I'm issued a circa 2005/6 P220R with the internal extractor. I've had extractor issues and failure to lock back on an empty mag issues. It took Sig and the Office armorer's the better part of a year to figure the failure to lock back problem. But... The gun has run like a sewing machine ever since, and its accurate as hell. I've got about 1000-1500 office rounds and maybe 1500-2000 of my own thru it now. I've left the Sig hate behind me, and if they'll let me buy it when it's retired I will. I'm excited about the new P227 hoping that we'll upgrade this year or next, and I'd like to get a 226 Tac Ops at some point.
I personally own 2 17's, a 19, and a 26. Looking to pick up another 19 this month.
I've said horrible things about Sig both on here, and at the Office where we're issued P220's. I'm issued a circa 2005/6 P220R with the internal extractor. I've had extractor issues and failure to lock back on an empty mag issues. It took Sig and the Office armorer's the better part of a year to figure the failure to lock back problem. But... The gun has run like a sewing machine ever since, and its accurate as hell. I've got about 1000-1500 office rounds and maybe 1500-2000 of my own thru it now. I've left the Sig hate behind me, and if they'll let me buy it when it's retired I will. I'm excited about the new P227 hoping that we'll upgrade this year or next, and I'd like to get a 226 Tac Ops at some point.
I personally own 2 17's, a 19, and a 26. Looking to pick up another 19 this month.
The P220's with the stainless slides and internal extractors were a problem, and left SIG with a black eye. The current P220's with the external extractor seem to be doing a lot better. I have no idea why SIG didn't switch the P220 to the external extractor, like the rest of the line, when they switched to the stainless slides.
Nightstalker865
02-13-13, 22:55
Like everyone else said, I bet the brass had a hard on for SIG. Otherwise it doesn't makes sense at all. The G22 is a fantastic weapon.
Like everyone else said, I bet the brass had a hard on for SIG. Otherwise it doesn't makes sense at all. The G22 is a fantastic weapon.
The G22 is a fantastic weapon? Really? From mine (and many others), the G22 represents the most unreliable of ALL the Glock's made (especially when you attach a metal weapon light to is).
C4
Like everyone else said, I bet the brass had a hard on for SIG. Otherwise it doesn't makes sense at all. The G22 is a fantastic weapon.
If I had to carry a Glock, the G22 would be at the bottom of the list.
Department politics plays a greater role in duty pistol selection than any other factor.
brickboy240
02-14-13, 11:47
I have a 1994 made G22 that I bought used in 1996. The thing has literally given me no troubles at all. Have run thousands through it and it is no less reliable than my 2nd gen G17,really.
But since mine is a 2nd gen...I have never put a light on it. I have heard about the light issues but again...I cannot put a light on mine and the thing runs great.
I think that for a 40SW pistol...you could do MUCH worse than the Glock 22. Had no idea most thought of it as a "problem child."
-brickboy240
I think that for a 40SW pistol...you could do MUCH worse than the Glock 22. Had no idea most thought of it as a "problem child."
-brickboy240
Wasn't the reason for the development of the Gen 4 Glocks, to solve Glock .40 issues?
I have a 1994 made G22 that I bought used in 1996. The thing has literally given me no troubles at all. Have run thousands through it and it is no less reliable than my 2nd gen G17,really.
But since mine is a 2nd gen...I have never put a light on it. I have heard about the light issues but again...I cannot put a light on mine and the thing runs great.
I think that for a 40SW pistol...you could do MUCH worse than the Glock 22. Had no idea most thought of it as a "problem child."
-brickboy240
It is so bad that in the manual for the SureFire X300, they advise the user that the gun may malfunction!
You know its bad when a FLASHLIGHT company puts a warning out.
C4
Wasn't the reason for the development of the Gen 4 Glocks, to solve Glock .40 issues?
One of (yes).
C4
I bought my g22 in 1994. It had been nearly perfect as an edc weapon for me. The only malfunction I ever had through more than 10'000 rounds was on a batch of bad reloads. Not the most accurate with the trigger it has and not the prettiest thing, but a great edc
typos courtesy of my smart phone
brickboy240
02-14-13, 11:54
But outside the light issue...has the G22 been a problem child?
If so...why are so many police agencies still carrying the G22?
-brickboy240
WickedWillis
02-14-13, 11:56
The G22 is a fantastic weapon? Really? From mine (and many others), the G22 represents the most unreliable of ALL the Glock's made (especially when you attach a metal weapon light to is).
C4
I agree from my experience the G22 is a pretty sad Glock. That being said, I have extensively fired the Gen 3 Model with the stock spring, and with a new tungsten spring (glocks enjoy polymer rods best) and it just doesnt play well. I cannot speak for the Gen 4 though. Just my experience.
But outside the light issue...has the G22 been a problem child?
If so...why are so many police agencies still carrying the G22?
-brickboy240
Yes (compared to their 9mm offerings).
Agencies (for a long time now) have been in love with Glock (could do no wrong). It was almost like a status symbol (you used Glock's or you sucked).
C4
KPD switching from GLOCK to Sig WAS 100% politics and nothing to do with either weapon. I watched it all go down from a pretty good seat.
9mm extraction "issues" = .40 caliber malfunction "issues"
Far more guns work than don't
Several variables at play go unconsidered/undiscussed
Small tweaks generally work, depending on the variables
Data is over-extrapolated
Internet runs amok
Credible folks out there have had some troublesome guns, even a few members here. However, too many others remain quick to indict a larger sampling without the foundation.
Advice on both remains the same: Buy one and shoot it.
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/mar/03/documents-reveal-more-about-kpd-switch-in/
Updated.
The chief's statement pisses me off. Glock vs Sig asside. I have never heard of a 4 or 5 year life for a Glock. He should retract that publicly or face some sort of issues with Glock in my opinion.
I wouldnt be suprised to find out they were dunking the entire gun in mineral spirits to clean them or something. I would think that may weaken the plastic.
I would also be interested to learn if they actually replaced every Glock every 4 or 5 years.
I guess we are the luckiest police department on the face of the earth. We have been issuing Glocks for the past 15-20 years with nothing out of the ordinary being wrong with the weapons. Of course parts will break down eventually like every weapon thats been ran hard. Magazine springs will eventually need to be replaced and so on and so on.
I have put 30k+ through my first Gen3 21 and 15k+ through a 21SF. I have 18k through my current Gen 4 17 without one malfunction yet. Not one fail to fire, feed, nothing other than a dead primer here or there. We just rolled all of our older Gen3's to new Gen4's and still have had no issues.
Our primary caliber of issue is the 40. Probably 50% of the 320+ officers carry the 40 which is our issue weapon in the academy. After a year on the street and off probation you can turn it in and they can issue you a 45 or 9. I'd say 40% carry the 45 and 10% carry the 9.
We literally see hundreds of thousands of rounds put through our department issued weapons and the same through our personally owned back up and off duty Glocks yearly.
I believe that most complaints against the Glock weapon system are due to the operator and administration. Its due to poor ammunition being bought and used, poor preventive maintenance if any at all, and simple small parts replacement schedules they should be following.
Now I know that all departments aren't going to have the money or someone with the G2 to make sure this happens so it should fall to the individual carrying the weapon. I know with our PD if you don't buy, give or supply it they'll just let it fall apart. I myself replace almost everything at my cost because I have to buy for my Swat and competition guns/magazines/parts as well as the departments. Its simple, if you want it to perform correctly when you need it the most you better maintain it.
Also favoritism is a big factor. When I was with THP they chose the Sig over the Glock, and this was a direct comment from the Lt in charge of the firearms program when I asked why they didn't go with a lighter more reliable weapon like the Glock he stated, "The Glock is just too ugly a gun to carry on our uniforms". .
A few of the other firearms program guys told me they would've rather chose the Glock and liked its reliability and light weight over the Sig but they were overruled in the choices.
Rarely do departments make purchases based on logical evaluation of the firearms. Most often, the process is political and economic in nature.
As for striker vs DA/SA hammer fired...
For those that rarely see range time, the striker guns are easier to learn. However, the DA/SA guns are not at a disadvantage because the first heavy shot can be overcome with some training. After the first heavy shot, the subsequent shots are actually lighter than the striker guns. Most Glock triggers are in the 5-5.5lb range and the Sig SA shots are 4-4.5lbs.
In reality, this is all academic as a pound or two of trigger pull in a two way shooting environment won't be a factor.
The bad reputation of the DA/SA guns comes from those that do not train effectively with them. They are military units that only qual with the M9 once or twice a year or the police department that won't pay for quality training for their officers and rely on the once a year qual.
S. Galbraith
03-03-13, 12:46
Sig markets very, very well. They currently run a buy back program for non Federal agencies too which is very appealing. Sometimes it isn't the quality of the equipment that leans a department this way or that......it's the logistics and misguided preferences in the procurement process.
morbidbattlecry
03-03-13, 12:56
Am i wrong in remembering the p220 is one of the worse Sig models due to reliability?
brushy bill
03-03-13, 13:08
Am i wrong in remembering the p220 is one of the worse Sig models due to reliability?
Nope, you are not wrong.
brushy bill
03-03-13, 13:20
It always amazes me that people are so fascinated with LE and .MIL purchases. Yes, sometimes this provides a "clue" if it is an across the board type of move (then again, probably more agencies with Glock 40s than 9mms and most here wouldn't agree the 22 and 23 represents Glocks best), but looking at a given dept doesn't give a lot of insight. Otherwise, everyone with similar mission sets would carry exactly the same weapon and come to essentially the same conclusion.
For instance, it is pretty well recognized here that the M9 is not the pièce de résistance of the sidearms world, yet our .MIL is staying with it for now and even let new contracts for same. Why? Part of this is institutional inertia. A few years back, USAF tried to influence a move to another sidearm in a different caliber, but couldn't because they didn't "own" the process. A lot of issues involved in the decision making process besides the quality and performance of the weapon alone. My two cents, YMMV.
Sig markets very, very well. They currently run a buy back program for non Federal agencies too which is very appealing. Sometimes it isn't the quality of the equipment that leans a department this way or that......it's the logistics and misguided preferences in the procurement process.
You mean the same type of program that Glock and S&W run?
S. Galbraith
03-03-13, 14:49
You mean the same type of program that Glock and S&W run?
Sure. It would be foolish not to offer such purchase incentives if the competition is doing it. Kinda like the car business, and the fact that bulk auto purchases by govt agencies rarely have anything to do with the quality of the vehicle.
So, I wouldn't put any more faith in what a small dept/agency adopts just as I would not put any faith in what they use for vehicles. I would be more inclined to trust an agency that runs a pistol trial, or sets forth quality standards as part of a contract.
High Altitude
03-03-13, 15:15
Article in the local paper today. KPD was having problems with the glock triggers sticking and pins coming out which is the reason for the switch. Glock said they where never notified, no other pd having same issues and they never got a chance to look over said pistols.
Sounds like a bunch of BS to me to get new pistols.
Anyone else think this may have nothing to do with firearm performance?
So nothing makes sense, nothing is documented and accusations are refuted... Nothing to see folks, move along.
At The Ready
03-04-13, 06:40
I carry a glock on duty and would love to trade it for a Sig
Rarely do departments make purchases based on logical evaluation of the firearms. Most often, the process is political and economic in nature.
As for striker vs DA/SA hammer fired...
For those that rarely see range time, the striker guns are easier to learn. However, the DA/SA guns are not at a disadvantage because the first heavy shot can be overcome with some training. After the first heavy shot, the subsequent shots are actually lighter than the striker guns. Most Glock triggers are in the 5-5.5lb range and the Sig SA shots are 4-4.5lbs.
In reality, this is all academic as a pound or two of trigger pull in a two way shooting environment won't be a factor.
The bad reputation of the DA/SA guns comes from those that do not train effectively with them. They are military units that only qual with the M9 once or twice a year or the police department that won't pay for quality training for their officers and rely on the once a year qual.
You've just described pretty much every PD and the vast majority of LEOs. Their training programs suck, the officers suck and think the PD training is all they need, and adding something to the mix that makes shooting harder isn't a good idea.
You've just described pretty much every PD and the vast majority of LEOs. Their training programs suck, the officers suck and think the PD training is all they need, and adding something to the mix that makes shooting harder isn't a good idea.
Very true statements in regard to LE firearms selection and training for the most part.
Magic_Salad0892
03-04-13, 10:52
I carry a glock on duty and would love to trade it for a Sig
Why?.
Yes (compared to their 9mm offerings).
Agencies (for a long time now) have been in love with Glock (could do no wrong). It was almost like a status symbol (you used Glock's or you sucked).
C4
Grant,
In your opinion, how about the G23? I picked up a Gen4 G23 a few months ago. I've got 1k through it and it's been running 100%. Are there similar issues with the G23 as were with the G22?
Thanks,
S. Galbraith
03-05-13, 11:30
I carry a glock on duty and would love to trade it for a Sig
I've used and worked on Sigs on duty for almost a decade. Having done quite a bit of testing on both platforms, I'd rather be using a Glock 9mm. You will find very few, if any of the top instructors and trainers around the country, who have a choice in what they carry, recommending the Sig for pretty much any type serious use now days.
Any particular reason why you would prefer using a Sig?
I am not sure why you dislike Sig pistols so much, but it seems like every post you make is to state your preference for anything but a Sig.
I am relatively new to the Sig platform, and my 2012 226R is just at 3,210 rounds since new (without a stoppage), but I already shoot a Sig better than an HK LEM with about 100,000 rounds down range.
I can give scores of reasons why the Sig is a viable choice compared to a Glock or HK.
NeoNeanderthal
03-05-13, 12:15
Who, (if they had the choice) would choose a DA/SA trigger over a DAO of a glock/mp. WTF would you want two different trigger pulls? I understand the theory behind issuing them to big army in the form of the m9. But as an individual....who would choose that set up?
Unless you had been shooting one your entire life and were just so used to it you could not change.... Your still just USED to an inferior trigger pull. People tend to say. "I LIKE sigs" or "I LIKE glocks" but its just like people "LIKE the pats, or the broncos or whatever." It's usually because their daddy had/has one, or they like that its made in nh, or they like the way it looks. And then they buy it, and its all they know.
On paper, what is better about a sig vs a glock. Weight, capacity, trigger, reliability, aftermarket parts, ease of maintenance uh no? I mean personal preferences to ergonomics aside. Am i missing something?
S. Galbraith
03-05-13, 12:36
I am not sure why you dislike Sig pistols so much, but it seems like every post you make is to state your preference for anything but a Sig.
Sorry to offend you. I like classic Sigs such as the German P228s, but given what is available now days I've found that polymer framed pistols with a good single condition trigger to be a superior choice in terms of quickly and accuratey getting bullets on target out of the holster.
I am relatively new to the Sig platform, and my 2012 226R is just at 3,210 rounds since new (without a stoppage), but I already shoot a Sig better than an HK LEM with about 100,000 rounds down range.
Well if you are able to put $20,000 worth of ammo downrange without a second thought.....then there is no point in discussing the matter with you. I've found a measurable decrease in accuracy in our 9mm Sigs around the 50k mark, but that is of course after years of academy use with a variety of frangible and sinterfire loads.
I can give scores of reasons why the Sig is a viable choice compared to a Glock or HK.
Please do. I'm sure you've got at least another $20,000 worth of ammo through each Glock and H&K that you have tested to set me straight.
Magic_Salad0892
03-05-13, 12:39
Who, (if they had the choice) would choose a DA/SA trigger over a DAO of a glock/mp. WTF would you want two different trigger pulls? I understand the theory behind issuing them to big army in the form of the m9. But as an individual....who would choose that set up?
Unless you had been shooting one your entire life and were just so used to it you could not change.... Your still just USED to an inferior trigger pull. People tend to say. "I LIKE sigs" or "I LIKE glocks" but its just like people "LIKE the pats, or the broncos or whatever." It's usually because their daddy had/has one, or they like that its made in nh, or they like the way it looks. And then they buy it, and its all they know.
On paper, what is better about a sig vs a glock. Weight, capacity, trigger, reliability, aftermarket parts, ease of maintenance uh no? I mean personal preferences to ergonomics aside. Am i missing something?
I get what you're saying (The new SAO SIG 226 kind of makes the trigger argument void.) but to be honest, I actually shoot a SIG 228, or P225/P6 quite well.
They're good guns, and plenty accurate. Plus, you can score factory threaded barrels, and there are good sight options, and holsters available for them.
A Glock is better in pretty much every way, but if somebody can shoot well with a SIG and for whatever reason that's what they want to use (and they have one that's not a problem child), then I see no reason to shoot 'em down for their choice.
Sorry to offend you. I like classic Sigs such as the German P228s, but given what is available now days I've found that polymer framed pistols with a good single condition trigger to be a superior choice in terms of quickly and accuratey getting bullets on target out of the holster.
Well if you are able to put $20,000 worth of ammo downrange without a second thought.....then there is no point in discussing the matter with you. I've found a measurable decrease in accuracy in our 9mm Sigs around the 50k mark, but that is of course after years of academy use with a variety of frangible and sinterfire loads.
Please do. I'm sure you've got at least another $20,000 worth of ammo through each Glock and H&K that you have tested to set me straight.
Not sure if this is a duplicate, but the system seemed to eat my first attempt at a response.
First, disregarding my experience, Surf on this Forum, and Bill Rogers to me privately, both have said they shoot a Sig 226 better than a Glock.
I like a Glock for lower empty weight and easier user serviceability. I prefer the hammer on a Sig, as I carry appendix. Not sure if you carry appendix, but a hammer and longer/heavier initial trigger is an enormous advantage for this style of carry. I find the Sig more accurate, less grip sensitive, easier to shoot transitions with, and far easier to shoot one hand. I like the Sig's trigger characteristics and large trigger guard for shooting in cold weather. I also find the DA Sig initial trigger with its great rolling break to be an advantage not a disadvantage for shooting well. I suspect this is because I have spent a lot of effort, dry and live fire, learning to shoot the DA SIG trigger, as opposed to considering it a hindrance.
I shoot the Sig on timed drills better than the HK, and one hand there is no comparison, as the LEM trigger is particularly challenging and the SRT trigger feels like cheating.
My durability experience is limited, with just 3,210 rounds since new thru my 2012 226R. My buddy's new 226R is just past 5,000 rounds also without a stoppage despite zero cleaning. I also have friends with extremely high round count 226's. I do know that frang and lead free primers can degrade accuracy on a number of platforms, so it wouldn't surprise me on the Sig, too. If I needed a new barrel in my Sig at 50,000 rounds, it wouldn't cause me to shed a tear.
I am in no way trying to run down the HK or Glock platforms, and they are the pistols I own most of, and have the most experience with. Besides years of experience, in just the last few months, I have trained with Manny Bragg and Robert Vogel with a Glock 34, Bill Rogers with a Glock 17 and P30, and Todd Green with a P30, so I have a good handle on my performance with those platforms. In November, I shot a 116/125 on the Rogers School test with a Glock 17, so I feel like my Glock skills are solid. So far, I am shooting personal bests with the 226R, and the Sig's attribute set meshes well with what I am looking for in a pistol.
Magic_Salad0892
03-05-13, 14:35
I am in no way trying to run down the HK or Glock platforms, and they are the pistols I own most of, and have the most experience with. Besides years of experience, in just the last few months, I have trained with Manny Bragg and Robert Vogel with a Glock 34, Bill Rogers with a Glock 17 and P30, and Todd Green with a P30, so I have a good handle on my performance with those platforms. In November, I shot a 116/125 on the Rogers School test with a Glock 17, so I feel like my Glock skills are solid. So far, I am shooting personal bests with the 226R, and the Sig's attribute set meshes well with what I am looking for in a pistol.
This account is exactly what I'm referring to in my post. If you're answer is a SIG, and your specific example is reliable, then I think that's great. I've seen SIGs that suck, but that company seems to be kind of ironing out the issues lately.
I've used and worked on Sigs on duty for almost a decade. Having done quite a bit of testing on both platforms, I'd rather be using a Glock 9mm. You will find very few, if any of the top instructors and trainers around the country, who have a choice in what they carry, recommending the Sig for pretty much any type serious use now days.
Any particular reason why you would prefer using a Sig?
You know, you're the second guy on here from your agency (DOI), that has had to post about SIG, that he was an amorer (not a big deal, really!), and that you actually work for "DOI" in every other post. Actually, the other guy left (at least I haven't seen him) after he got called on a bunch of BS that he was spewing as fact, when it actually wasn't.
I work for an agency that issues Glocks, and I choose to carry my own SIGs on and off duty. Many guys do, and so do 50-75% of the instructors too. Glocks aren't the end all be all pistol that folks seem to make them out to be on the errornet. To me, the only advantage that a Glock has over a SIG is in weight. I'm used to carrying 30+lbs of crap every day, so the couple of ounces aren't that big of a deal to me.
I have tried to transition to Glocks in the past. I'm faster and more accurate with the SIG, period. The DA/SA does not hamper me in any way, and it shouldn't if you're a "shooter." The SRT on a SIG is a MUCH better trigger than any Glock that I have shot. In fact, the only factory trigger that I have felt that is better is on older Smith revolvers and higher end 1911's. As I said before, the SRT is a game changer.
I don't know if the DOI gets hand me downs or what since they are low on the totem pole in Fed land, but most agencies have moved on from the old stamped SIGs such as the P228. Those older models do require more maintenance than most modern designs. Newer SIGs with the SS slides do not require any more maintenance than other pistols, have a lot better finish, and are just as reliable (if not more) and durable as newer designs.
You mention that top instructors recommend Glock. Well, I can say most instructors use what most of their students do, but I see them recommending other brands too. Honestly, who really cares? I see many "top instructors" say to avoid Gen4 Glocks and M&P's too, but there's thousands of folks that are happy with them. I've also seen an instructor (former Delta) carrying an XDm in photos on this forum. We all know what people think of those on here! Many instructors are also paid by companies to pimp a brand. If you're the type that feeds off of that, go for it.
Since we're on the subject of "top tier" folks... There's a lot of gun centric organizations (mil and LE) here in the US and around the world, that choose to issue SIGs. If the SIG wasn't up to snuff with other products on the market, or if something was that much better to make a change, then they would.
As GJM said, I'm not trying to bash other brands. It's just that there's certain circles on the net that seem to make SIGs out to be equal to Hi-Points. That's not the case. Have they had their problems in the past? Probably, but so does every manufacturer. If I saw half the problems that those guys and their minions regurgitate, I would have no problem selling my SIGs and moving on to something else.
I have over 10yrs experience with the P220 in particular, as a dept armorer and personally running P220s almost exclusively for my needs. I've also run P220s through their paces without major problems. I'd probably abandon the platform as well if I saw even half of the Internet problems. I haven't, and I own many P220s, the lowest round count one is 8400, and the highest probably just over 15k now.
I've also worked at Glock only agencies and have tons of experience on the G22/23. Outside of the durable finish and consistent trigger, they don't work for me. Me and Glocks just don't get along, so I see no reason to deviate from the SIG as my sidearm.
DanjojoUSMC
03-05-13, 17:05
Who, (if they had the choice) would choose a DA/SA trigger over a DAO of a glock/mp. WTF would you want two different trigger pulls? I understand the theory behind issuing them to big army in the form of the m9. But as an individual....who would choose that set up?
Unless you had been shooting one your entire life and were just so used to it you could not change.... Your still just USED to an inferior trigger pull. People tend to say. "I LIKE sigs" or "I LIKE glocks" but its just like people "LIKE the pats, or the broncos or whatever." It's usually because their daddy had/has one, or they like that its made in nh, or they like the way it looks. And then they buy it, and its all they know.
On paper, what is better about a sig vs a glock. Weight, capacity, trigger, reliability, aftermarket parts, ease of maintenance uh no? I mean personal preferences to ergonomics aside. Am i missing something?
I prefer DA/SA pistols. I like the 4lbs-ish short, light pull without messing with a manual safety. The hammer-fired DA/SA pistols tend to be less prone to weak primer strikes, weak/poor grip induced stoppages, needing butt plugs, two-handed mag ejection, etc.
People tend to judge things based on how capable and willing they are instead of using objectivity. That one initial trigger pull being over 7lbs gives them fits only if they never bothered to grasp and master trigger control. I would wager that guy who sucks with DA/SA, also sucks with a constant 4-6lbs. pull - just a little less.
John Hearne
03-07-13, 20:51
You know, you're the second guy on here from your agency (DOI), that has had to post about SIG, that he was an amorer (not a big deal, really!), and that you actually work for "DOI" in every other post. Actually, the other guy left (at least I haven't seen him) after he got called on a bunch of BS that he was spewing as fact, when it actually wasn't.
I'm pretty sure you're talking about me. What exactly did I post that was factually incorrect?
Regarding being an armorer, it isn't a high level class compared to being a true gunsmith but it does mean that you are seeing the pistols on a regular basis and seeing what breaks. If an end user never has a problem, they can remain blissfully ignorant of larger patterns of problems.
I don't know if the DOI gets hand me downs or what since they are low on the totem pole in Fed land, but most agencies have moved on from the old stamped SIGs such as the P228. Those older models do require more maintenance than most modern designs. Newer SIGs with the SS slides do not require any more maintenance than other pistols, have a lot better finish, and are just as reliable (if not more) and durable as newer designs.
We have a wide range of Sigs, starring with early 1990s's versions of the P226, P228, and P220. We have purchased new guns over the years, just not as much as the initial batch. The most recent gun I've seen is a P226R in 40 with the E2 extractor - about the most current Sig there is. Obviously, all of our P229 are stainless slide guns. We also have a bunch of stainless slide P220's.
Since we're on the subject of "top tier" folks... There's a lot of gun centric organizations (mil and LE) here in the US and around the world, that choose to issue SIGs. If the SIG wasn't up to snuff with other products on the market, or if something was that much better to make a change, then they would.
Are you completely blind to the number of agencies that have dropped Sig because of reliability issues. The New Hampshire State Police and Henrico County, VA Police come to mind. New Hampshire is the HOME of Sig and they carried the P220 for less than a year because 1/3 of the guns would not run.
Have they had their problems in the past? Probably, but so does every manufacturer. If I saw half the problems that those guys and their minions regurgitate, I would have no problem selling my SIGs and moving on to something else.
Every manufacturer has had problems. It is how they address them that matters. Sig has been very dishonorable with their dealings. Requiring an NCIC broadcast to acknowledge a problem is a bit much.
I suspect willingness to acknowledge problems is not a trait common with our major firearms manufacturers.
I am not making this stuff up, but the Glock CS rep said to me "what problem with reliability with our late model gen 3 and early gen 4 pistols," and the S&W CS rep said to me, "I am not aware of any problems with our 9mm M&P pistols and accuracy?"
Heavy Metal
03-07-13, 21:23
Having been around Glock 22's as they are very common in Law Enforcement, I would not chose to carry one. I have been forced to at past departments.
Issue include.
1. KB's most recent one I am aware of in my area was about 7 months ago with a Trooper on qualification. Blew the extractor off and ruined the magazine, and cracked part of the frame. Frame is still usable.
2. Gen 3 was not reliable with weapon lights attached. Saw this with my own eyes. This is a deal killer for me.
3. High recoil compared to 9mm guns.
Pat
And those issues were fixed with the Gen 4 .40s
I'm pretty sure you're talking about me. What exactly did I post that was factually incorrect?
Actually, I wasn't talking about you.
Regarding being an armorer, it isn't a high level class compared to being a true gunsmith but it does mean that you are seeing the pistols on a regular basis and seeing what breaks. If an end user never has a problem, they can remain blissfully ignorant of larger patterns of problems.
I know its not a high level class. I can work on SIGs just as well as an "armorer" after purchasing $20 DVD. I see pistols of all makes and models (popular duty weapons) on the range, and I am pretty sure of what my own eyes see. Being an SRO for my agency, and probably the next in line to be an instructor, I see what is having problems and what is not. Bottom line... the SIGs and H&K's do NOT have the problems that Glocks and M&P's do. Period.
We have a wide range of Sigs, starring with early 1990s's versions of the P226,P228, and P220. We have purchased new guns over the years, just not as much as the initial batch. The most recent gun I've seen is a P226R in 40 with the E2 extractor - about the most current Sig there is. Obviously, all of our P229 are stainless slide guns. We also have a bunch of stainless slide P220's.
OK? :confused:
Are you completely blind to the number of agencies that have dropped Sig because of reliability issues. The New Hampshire State Police and Henrico County, VA Police come to mind. New Hampshire is the HOME of Sig and they carried the P220 for less than a year because 1/3 of the guns would not run.
Are you completely blind of all of the agencies that have dumped S&W, Glock and H&K? For one, many agencies dumped HK's for M&P's because they were given free guns, gear, ammo and armorers training for trade (free of cost) for the old HK's. They have had more problems with the M&P's in the first couple of years than they ever did with the HK's. Don't believe me? Then I will quote a dealer who is a LE for both brands. Glock has had MAJOR issues with the Gen3 22's and Gen 4's across the board. Their own LE reps have blown up at agencies, such as LAPD, for calling them on their BS. It was a big issue, believe me. If you don't, then Google it.
Bottom line... EVERY MANUFACTURER HAS PROBLEMS. People who bitch about SIG haven't dealt with the others, or have a personal vendetta, and or are just regurgitating errornet BS. Period.
Every manufacturer has had problems. It is how they address them that matters. Sig has been very dishonorable with their dealings. Requiring an NCIC broadcast to acknowledge a problem is a bit much.
See above. As Grant said. When a MANUFACTURER OF FLASHLIGHTS has to put in their manual, that the light may cause the gun to malfunction, that's a problem. Period. I've never seen a SIG malfunction because a light is attached.
Alaskapopo
03-07-13, 21:43
And those issues were fixed with the Gen 4 .40s
KB's were not addressed with the Gen 4 as far as I am aware. Nor is the higher recoil. I have fired a Gen 3 and Gen 4 side by side to compare recoil to see if the new recoil spring did anything and frankly I could not tell any difference in felt recoil or muzzle rise.
Pat
I owned a P226 9mm and liked it an all, I just could not shoot the damn thing. I think the grip seemed a little to thick for me being a double stack. I since traded it in on a Gen 3 G17 and never looked back. My hand fits so much better around the grip even with it being a double stack also. I will say every time I go to my LGS I pick up a P220 Combat TB they have and it feels very nice in my hand being a single stack, I just can't justify laying down >$1,100 at this time.
KBs have been "quietly" addressed by Glock over the years in the form of more support in the barrels 6 o'clock position near the feed ramp. This is easily noticed when comparing older .40 Glock barrels with newer ones side by side. I've also seen Glocks go boom from firing out of battery due to heavily fatigued recoil springs, but that was at a dept that had no idea about maintenance.
While recoil is different for everyone, running a Glock 23 Gen3 and 4 side by side, there is a noticeable difference in muzzle flip and follow up shots for -most- users.
KB's were not addressed with the Gen 4 as far as I am aware. Nor is the higher recoil. I have fired a Gen 3 and Gen 4 side by side to compare recoil to see if the new recoil spring did anything and frankly I could not tell any difference in felt recoil or muzzle rise.
Pat
I know its not a high level class. I can work on SIGs just as well as an "armorer" after purchasing $20 DVD. I see pistols of all makes and models (popular duty weapons) on the range, and I am pretty sure of what my own eyes see. Being an SRO for my agency, and probably the next in line to be an instructor, I see what is having problems and what is not. Bottom line... the SIGs and H&K's do NOT have the problems that Glocks and M&P's do. Period.
S-1, this paragraph is killing your credibility. You speak with a damn authoritative tone for having watched a DVD, being an SRO, seeing guns at the range and "probably" being an instructor soon. I'm not on the "Sigs are just as bad as Hi Points" bandwagon but you might want to leave the door open to there existing persons with more experience/knowledge about this subject than you. There are some very reputable people who have expressed concern with Sig QC in the last decade or so.
This is supposedly a forum that internal prides itself on having so many "credible" contributors, but I swear it is visited by a bunch of fanboy 13 year olds. It never fails that these types of posts lead to some bickering. But wait, I've only posted a couple of times on this forum so I must be a knucklehead.
For the love of god, both SIG and Glock have long histories of being dependable service pistols. Good luck around here ever bringing up that there may be a viable alternative to a Glock, heaven forbid you even mention that something other than a Colt/BCM/DD.
Did you ever stop to think that more than likely the politics and personal preferences of a few made this decision? I mean we all know how efficiently the government spends our tax dollars.
John Hearne
03-08-13, 09:10
Actually, I wasn't talking about you.
Now I'm really curious. Who else in this thread (other than Galbraith and I) claimed to have worked within the DOI?
We have a wide range of Sigs...
OK? :confused:
It's called a rebuttal. You make a statement - DOI must have a bunch of older Sig. I respond with the correct information - we have a wide range of Sigs in terms of age, specifically they are...
I see pistols of all makes and models (popular duty weapons) on the range, and I am pretty sure of what my own eyes see. Being an SRO for my agency, and probably the next in line to be an instructor, I see what is having problems and what is not. Bottom line... the SIGs and H&K's do NOT have the problems that Glocks and M&P's do. Period.
If we're calling on experience here, let's compare. Your agency has how many officer's carrying Sigs? Our number is about 1500. Have you talked to other agencies carrying Sigs? Like maybe all the people who work for agencies at FLETC that carry or used to carry Sigs? Have you talked to people at Sig about these issues? When you talk to their non-phone answering customer service folks, Sig representatives has been very open about the problems I've outlined. They aren't surprised and I get advice like "find a non-MIM locking block."
I'm not sure that it's relevant to this discussion, but if we'd like to compare CV's let me know. I am not "almost" an instructor and have seen a lot of rounds go down range myself. The brief version:
" John has spent over fifteen years as a Federal Law Enforcement Officer, primarily in uniform patrol. He also serves as a Field Training Officer, Agency Firearms Instructor, and Armorer. John has also spent years as a firearms instructor in the public and private sector. He has trained law enforcement officers, military units (including Army Special Forces and USMC High Risk Personnel Cadre), and private citizens. His current certifications include: Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (Distinguished Weapons Expert), FBI Police Firearms Instructor, NRA LE - Tactical Shooting Instructor, and Mississippi POST. John has also shot competitively including the National Tactical Invitational (NTI), IDPA, and 3-Gun Matches. He was recognized as a top practitioner at the NTI (2006). He has been Match Champion (2011, 2004) and High Lawman (2012, 2002) at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference."
Not mentioned - public speaking since 2006. Presentations on Newhall, Miami-FBI, Boyd's OODA Loop and Interpersonal Violence, FBI Research Summary, and Human Performance Under Fire. Presentations given at the NTI, Rangemaster Tactical Conference, WarriorTalk Symposium, Indiana SWAT Officer's Association and featured as the guest speaker for the 2012 IALEFI Training Conference.
Are you completely blind of all of the agencies that have dumped S&W, Glock and H&K? For one, many agencies dumped HK's for M&P's because they were given free guns, gear, ammo and armorers training for trade (free of cost) for the old HK's.
A lot of agencies dump a manufacturer of handguns for a reasons other than reliability. There is a huge amount of internal politics and personal preference that seem to drive these things. I was specifically referencing the failure directed attributable to poor gun design.
Sig is based in New Hampshire. They wanted the NH State Police contract badly for years. They even made a stainless P220 with magazine safety to compete for the contract and beat S&W. They also sold them guns with stainless slides and internal extractors. Those guns never ran right and NH carried Sig for less than a year. Their own home state.
Very similar experience in Henrico County. Henrico carried P220's for something like 15 years. They were very happy with the gun. Suddenly, as they role in new P220R's the guns don't run. Sig tries to blame everything else - ammo, shooters, etc. Sig can never get the guns to run right. Henrico drops Sig. I'm 90% certain that these were the stainless slide internal extractor guns.
Bottom line... EVERY MANUFACTURER HAS PROBLEMS. People who bitch about SIG haven't dealt with the others, or have a personal vendetta, and or are just regurgitating errornet BS. Period.
Every manufacturer does have problems. I would politely point out that Sigs track record of problems is longer and uglier (see the NCIC incident). I am not aware of any problems at Sig before 2004/2005 when Cohen took over. It is not "BS" to observe that since then, Sig has dramatically changed their manufacturing methods in an effort to lower costs. In an amazing coincidence, all of the "errornet BS" problems start at this time.
I have no great love for any handgun manufacturer. I have to carry Sigs for work so I've learned to live with them. I am greatly annoyed when I see a stainless slide, internal extractor P220 carried as a duty gun. It is a ticking time bomb of failure and Sig has been completely unwilling to do anything to stop it.
Heavy Metal
03-08-13, 09:28
KB's were not addressed with the Gen 4 as far as I am aware. Nor is the higher recoil. I have fired a Gen 3 and Gen 4 side by side to compare recoil to see if the new recoil spring did anything and frankly I could not tell any difference in felt recoil or muzzle rise.
Pat
I could tell a huge difference in controlability in the Gen 4 22 and 23 and the earlier models. The Gen 4s are sprung much more heavily and no longer share recoil spring assemblies with their 9mm counterparts.
As a poster noted above, the chamber support has been increased over the years and the heavier, more durable recoil spring assembly helps with lock-up.
S. Galbraith
03-08-13, 09:33
John knows what he is talking about(I have worked with him). As do Gary Roberts, Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Massad Ayoob, Dave Harrington, and Pat Rogers when they all say take a pass on new Sigs(I have worked with some of them too). Why do these people know what they are talking about?......because they showed an exceptional talent for firearms skill and knowledge their entire life, and now travel across the country training, attending conferences, and have face to face conversations with agency reps to exchange information on the positives and negatives with their equipment selections. Unless someone is(or was) specifically affiliated with Sig Sauer such as Todd Green or Team Sig, you simply won't find many instructors who recommend Sigs any more.
Like John I am not afraid to use my real name on these forums and own up for the information that I give out. I also use Sigs because I must, and make the best out of what I consider to be a less than optimal situation.
I am greatly annoyed when I see a stainless slide, internal extractor P220 carried as a duty gun. It is a ticking time bomb of failure and Sig has been completely unwilling to do anything to stop it.
Does anyone here have experience with Gray Guns replacement extractor for the SS Slide P-220's ?
Wow, talk about thread drift....
Politics. Read the article again, which is full of misdirection: it (agency) states that their G22s are $600 each, while the 220s are @ $750 each? The G price stated is MSRP, while the 220 price stated is the SIG LE discount. So, who is trying to lead the debate into which direction, and why?
Politics and money are the biggest factors in MOST agencies choices for sidearms. Knoxville P.D. was given a great budget for acquiring newer firearms from their city council, and their Chief snapped it up. In those smaller groups of City politics, when a city council gives you money like that ($13,500 in this case) you have to use it or lose it. What's the big deal?
SIG will train some of their KPD Officers to be Armorers, and any teething problems will be worked out. I've been through both the Glock and SIG LE Armorers classes: they are apples and oranges IMO. The SIG class was a 2 day in depth class with the Instructor going into great details that I appreciated. To get that level of Armorer training with LE Glock services the AAC is required, which I believe they are only doing in Smyrna right now and of course it's a whole 'nuther registration/travel/$$ hassle.
My department is currently going through the process of switching from Sig 226s to Springfield XDm .45s. Their reasoning was the age of the Sigs (5-10 years appx.) and the deal they got where it was basically a 1 for 1 swap for the new Springfields, along with wml and holsters (unspecified) for each new handgun.
My department is currently going through the process of switching from Sig 226s to Springfield XDm .45s. Their reasoning was the age of the Sigs (5-10 years appx.) and the deal they got where it was basically a 1 for 1 swap for the new Springfields, along with wml and holsters (unspecified) for each new handgun.
Really? How many and which Distributor do you got thru?
texasgunhand
03-08-13, 11:17
i agree with the metal gun thing for sure,, i have seen glocks outa the box that wouldnt shoot, you would pull the trigger as hard as you could and its like it would bind up and not fire till you released it and pulled again,
i think the QC of everything out there is crap,and i mean all guns. you have to shoot it and see if its gona work.as companys strive to keep cost down so does there QC go down,they will fix it. but gone are the days of buying 3 pistols and having all of them be great guns outa the box, they will all be different in some way. this started years ago, with cars,parts etc, the metal has gone to crap, and so has pride in work.
i see it building engines, the way things are done now are totally different than they used to be , crosshatching, torqing steps, and its becouse stuff and i meen even the good stuff is crap.
10-76,
I am not sure of the distributor, because I am in no ways part of the decision making or process. We have around 80 officers, but had a little more than 90 Sigs on hand. I do know that as part of the deal the distibutor took all surplus 9mm ammo for a lower amount of .45acp and even took old body armor to lessen the financial blow to the city.
S-1, this paragraph is killing your credibility. You speak with a damn authoritative tone for having watched a DVD, being an SRO, seeing guns at the range and "probably" being an instructor soon. I'm not on the "Sigs are just as bad as Hi Points" bandwagon but you might want to leave the door open to there existing persons with more experience/knowledge about this subject than you. There are some very reputable people who have expressed concern with Sig QC in the last decade or so.
I had a terrible day yesterday, hit the sauce, and probably should have stayed away from a key board. Sorry for coming off like an asshole.
What I was trying to say, is that anybody can be an armorer, all it takes is a couple hundred bucks to enroll in a class. Yes, there's people with much more experience with SIGs than I on here, and I may have more than others. There's guys that have a lot more experience with a variety of guns, but it can be said that I have more than others here too. There's a lot of experience on this forum. That and the SME's are what make this forum good.
What I don't like is the herd mentality. It drags the place down. There have been SME's on here, that have more rounds and experience through SIGs than anyone else here, that have commented and their statements are basically ignored because it doesn't go with the flow. A few months ago a SME (who now works for a large name in the industry as a trainer) commented that he hasn't seen a single XD malfunction in his classes, and that he has seen a lot. He also said that he couldn't say the same about a certain model that is very popular on this forum. His comments were basically ignored and the XD bashing continued.
I have also talked at length with someone who's job is to deal with all of the top tier instructors. He also attends a LOT of classes. He basically said that many of the problems that people speak of on the net are magnified to the point of BS. He said that vast majority of guns run just fine through high round count classes, including SIGs, Gen4 Glocks etc. He did point out that a certain very popular gun on the forums has the most problems, from what he has seen. It's the same one the SME above mentioned, and it also happens to be the one that I have seen the most problems with. But again, you mention that and you'll get the stink eye and lose "credibility" because it doesn't go with the herds flow.
John, I know that you have a lot of experience with SIGs. I agree that QC may have dipped, but it happens to a lot of manufacturers. I have spoke to the SIG LE rep about that, and he said that it does flunctuate, but they were currently running (IIRC) a 4-5% return/warranty work on their handguns. That conversation was about a year ago. With 1,500 SIGs in your system, do you think that you guys would have a lower failure rate if there were 1,500 of another brand? ETA... you're not the guy I was talking about. I think his board name was etrapy or something.
Anyways, I'll bow out of this one as I'm started to sound like a parrot.
Alaskapopo
03-08-13, 12:32
I could tell a huge difference in controlability in the Gen 4 22 and 23 and the earlier models. The Gen 4s are sprung much more heavily and no longer share recoil spring assemblies with their 9mm counterparts.
As a poster noted above, the chamber support has been increased over the years and the heavier, more durable recoil spring assembly helps with lock-up.
Really because I fired them both side by side with the same ammo and saw no difference at all in recoil and my friend who was with me felt the same way. The Gen 4 grip is better but the heavier recoils spring does nothing to reduce recoil.
Pat
Littlelebowski
03-08-13, 12:34
I absolutely noticed the flatter recoil on 9mm Gen4s. I'm very recoil sensitive due to my gunshot elbow.
John knows what he is talking about(I have worked with him). As do Gary Roberts, Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Massad Ayoob, Dave Harrington, and Pat Rogers when they all say take a pass on new Sigs(I have worked with some of them too).
Ok, but I don't see them endorsing .40 cal Glocks either. In fact, except for Massad Ayoob, have any of them endorsed any Glock other than the 17/19?
Unless someone is(or was) specifically affiliated with Sig Sauer such as Todd Green or Team Sig, you simply won't find many instructors who recommend Sigs any more.
Yeah maybe, but you would think considering the fact that Sig fired Todd, that he would never recommend them. But as he said, like every other pistol today, if you want one, buy one and shoot it.
Magic_Salad0892
03-08-13, 13:46
Ok, but I don't see them endorsing .40 cal Glocks either. In fact, except for Massad Ayoob, have any of them endorsed any Glock other than the 17/19?
I recall them saying good things about the G21.
Heavy Metal
03-08-13, 13:55
I recall them saying good things about the G21.
G-20 10MM.
DanjojoUSMC
03-08-13, 14:49
The problem is which pistols have problems less frequent and less current. Is it the ones most touted and recommended...Glocks and M&P's? At least online, the huge anti-Sig wave came in 2009 and opinions don't change regardless of vast majority positive feedback during 2010-2012.
People often mention a bad batch of take-down levers from around 2005-2006 or problems with pistols manufactured 2004 or earlier. It could be relevant in some cases, but definitely not for someone looking to get a new pistol or two today.
Preference and push for striker fired pistols and accessories seems to taint the facts about frequency of problems for the others. If a problem or two or three is raised for the striker-fired angels there is long-term "I/my agency hasn't seen it/hasn't had any problems" but if a whisper about Sig problem is sensed it is "yeah Cohen sucks, Sig's ain't what they used to be"
Does anything solid in the last 2 years suggest you are more likely to get a pistol that is both accurate and reliable from Glock or S&W than Sig? If a bad batch or two keeps a 5 year no-buy seal what is there to buy?
S. Galbraith
03-08-13, 15:04
Ok, but I don't see them endorsing .40 cal Glocks either. In fact, except for Massad Ayoob, have any of them endorsed any Glock other than the 17/19?
In the case of referencing those instructors, I wasn't mentioning their favorite guns.......just the fact that they all say to pass on newer Sigs. You are right though, most of them favor the Glock in 9mm. Vicker's likes the G20 since it makes for an outstanding woods gun......but that encompasses a different scale of threats. The .40 falls into the realm of service caliber, and thus it is lumped together with the 9mm and .45acp. From that perspective, its terminal effects benefits do not outweigh its handling detriments. At least what I've heard from Hackathorn and Vickers on the matter. In a full sized gun, the loss of shooting performance isn't "as bad" if you bump from 9mm to .40, but it gets exponentially worse as you get into smaller pistols and shooting times and accuracy are noticably different. From my own experiences with Sigs, I have demonstrated this differenece with the P228 9mm and P229 .40 platforms when engaging multiple threats for time. Increasing caliber size is not a force multiplier......hitting a vital area is. If you miss the first shot, then the only way to continue with force multipliers is to quickly and accurate continue your rate of fire until you hit something good. That is what most of the top tier instructors will teach, and why they tend to favor a single trigger condition in 9mm JHPs.
In the case of referencing those instructors, I wasn't mentioning their favorite guns.......just the fact that they all say to pass on newer Sigs. You are right though, most of them favor the Glock in 9mm. Vicker's likes the G20 since it makes for an outstanding woods gun......but that encompasses a different scale of threats. The .40 falls into the realm of service caliber, and thus it is lumped together with the 9mm and .45acp. From that perspective, its terminal effects benefits do not outweigh its handling detriments. At least what I've heard from Hackathorn and Vickers on the matter. In a full sized gun, the loss of shooting performance isn't "as bad" if you bump from 9mm to .40, but it gets exponentially worse as you get into smaller pistols and shooting times and accuracy are noticably different. From my own experiences with Sigs, I have demonstrated this differenece with the P228 9mm and P229 .40 platforms when engaging multiple threats for time. Increasing caliber size is not a force multiplier......hitting a vital area is. If you miss the first shot, then the only way to continue with force multipliers is to quickly and accurate continue your rate of fire until you hit something good. That is what most of the top tier instructors will teach, and why they tend to favor a single trigger condition in 9mm JHPs.
Understood. But, this agency had .40 cal Glocks and went to .45 cal classic Sigs. I just don't see how they're in a worse position with the Sigs as compared to the .40 cal Glocks. I really don't.
I understand your level of knowledge when it comes to Sigs. You can't see that many of them and not gain some perspective. Do you really think a Glock 17 is that much better of a gun than a Sig P226-9mm? Because I own both and can see the benefits and detriments of each. I just don't think one is significantly better than the other. Different, for sure; but better, not really.
S. Galbraith
03-08-13, 22:24
Understood. But, this agency had .40 cal Glocks and went to .45 cal classic Sigs. I just don't see how they're in a worse position with the Sigs as compared to the .40 cal Glocks. I really don't.
Well first off the P220 .45acp is a decent pistol if it is well serviced and you don't expect it to last as long as a HK45. Generally, most shooters get about 20k-30k rounds through it before something major breaks and it becomes a parts gun. By comparison, most 9mm Sigs will go at least 50k rounds without any problems. The P220 started off as a 9mm pistol in 1975, and was modified to shoot .38 Super and .45acp. Therefore, most of the parts that were originally designed for the 9mm carried over into the heavier recoiling .45acp and have never been changed, or were not beefed up enough to make the P220 a high round count pistol. At about the 211xxx serial number, some changes were made to the P220 .45 to help handle +P ammo. In the early 2000s, the stainless slide with internal extractor was produced, but that gun has turned out to be the worst of all. The extractor is positioned at a less than ideal angle in the slide, and stainless steel makes for a poor extractor spring(it is a flexing extractor design). The carbon steel extractors in the old guns maintained their spring properties much better over time. The next major change was in the mid 2000s and is the external extractor design which seems to make up for a lot of the past cartridge extraction issues. However, the slide velocity on the P220 still remains very fast(mostly, the hard return force causes premature take down lever breakage), and the magazine sits low making for rough feeding characteristics. Generally, we perform a full detail strip and service every 2500rds to ensure that our P220s run ideally, and swap out magazine springs at the same time.
There really aren't a whole lot of .40 S&W pistols that are outstanding. They tend to slow down your rate of fire as much as a .45acp, lack the accuracy of most .45acp pistols, and beat the hell out of guns. So moving away from the Glock 40 wasn't such a bad idea, but I don't think that moving to the P220 was a good idea either.
I understand your level of knowledge when it comes to Sigs. You can't see that many of them and not gain some perspective. Do you really think a Glock 17 is that much better of a gun than a Sig P226-9mm? Because I own both and can see the benefits and detriments of each. I just don't think one is significantly better than the other. Different, for sure; but better, not really.
I think that when it comes to quick reponse times against multiple threats, the Glock will give you an advantage. It doesn't matter how much you train, that first DA trigger pull on the Sig will be one of two things. Too slow because you are focused on not jerking the trigger, or inaccurate because you are rushing the pull. The first shot is always the most important, and everything after that is just playing catchup. Since the Glock has a short, single condition trigger(same concept as the 1911), it is much easier to get accurate rounds on target right out of the holster. Another advantage is the lower bore axis which is easier to point quickly and while under stress. Since your hands ride lower in relation to the Sig bore, you can end up fishing for your front sight when you are pushed beyond your comfort zone. The more accute grip angle on the Glock also brings the font sight up higher making it easier to find quickly.
Can I shoot Sigs well? Absolutely. However, for me, and just about everyone else on this planet, simplifying a weapon's operation and making it more intuitive to work with the ergonomics of the human body is only a gain to your combat ability. Glocks in 9mm work well enough not to take advantage of these gains.
I think that when it comes to quick reponse times against multiple threats, the Glock will give you an advantage. It doesn't matter how much you train, that first DA trigger pull on the Sig will be one of two things. Too slow because you are focused on not jerking the trigger, or inaccurate because you are rushing the pull. The first shot is always the most important, and everything after that is just playing catchup. Since the Glock has a short, single condition trigger(same concept as the 1911), it is much easier to get accurate rounds on target right out of the holster.
In my experience, this is just flat wrong. To an A zone hit at 5 yards from an open carry Fricke Gideon, there is no difference between my 226 and Glock 17 times -- both are .85 +/-. To a two inch dot from concealment at 7 yards, I am faster/more accurate with the DA first shot from the 226 than my G17/34. Two shots to a 3x5 at 7 yards, edge to the 226, and same for splits to the body. My one hand hit rate with the DA shot is better than the G34. A squared away friend that shot a 229 for work internationally about 60,000 rounds a year for five years told me, that with available time, he would choose to decock his 229 to make a difficult shot, as the rolling DA break is less susceptible to anticipation than a 1911 or Glock trigger, and that longer pull gave him more control. Bill Rogers told me on Thursday, that he never once missed the first head plate on the Rogers Range with his 226 DA in years of shooting a Sig. He says the 226 is his single favorite pistol.
I believe if folks think the DA shot is harder/less accurate, it will be. Conversely, if they think the DA press is a good thing, and practice it with many two shot drills so the DA/SA transition happens at a subconscious level, the DA press will be their friend not their enemy. I spent a bunch of time today drawing a 229 and 239 from a concealed appendix holster to a one inch square at 7 yards, shooting DA, and there is no other pistol I would rather do that with than a Sig.
My only question is how durable my Sig pistols will be with the high round counts I shoot.
DanjojoUSMC
03-09-13, 00:08
DA pull being either too slow or too rushed for accuracy is a personal thing. Saw a bunch of Marines within the first week of handgun familiarization in their lives shooting quick and accurate DA shots.
Same for pointing a Glock more naturally, that is a personal thing - how many people shoot high & left with them under stress?
i agree with the metal gun thing for sure,, i have seen glocks outa the box that wouldnt shoot, you would pull the trigger as hard as you could and its like it would bind up and not fire till you released it and pulled again,
i think the QC of everything out there is crap,and i mean all guns. you have to shoot it and see if its gona work.as companys strive to keep cost down so does there QC go down,they will fix it. but gone are the days of buying 3 pistols and having all of them be great guns outa the box, they will all be different in some way. this started years ago, with cars,parts etc, the metal has gone to crap, and so has pride in work.
i see it building engines, the way things are done now are totally different than they used to be , crosshatching, torqing steps, and its becouse stuff and i meen even the good stuff is crap.
Very true, I've seen the same things. I've worked in automotive for 25 years and have seen it from the ground up.
Alaskapopo
03-09-13, 05:27
Understood. But, this agency had .40 cal Glocks and went to .45 cal classic Sigs. I just don't see how they're in a worse position with the Sigs as compared to the .40 cal Glocks. I really don't.
I understand your level of knowledge when it comes to Sigs. You can't see that many of them and not gain some perspective. Do you really think a Glock 17 is that much better of a gun than a Sig P226-9mm? Because I own both and can see the benefits and detriments of each. I just don't think one is significantly better than the other. Different, for sure; but better, not really.
Going from a 16 shot pistol to a 9 shot pistol is not a good idea in my opinion. Secondly the 220 is one of the most problematic of the sigs. I am not a fan of the DA SA system for reasons already stated. But in the end I believe people should carry what they want so long as they are competent with it. A psychological advantage is still an advantage. If you feel you shoot sigs better then go for it.
Alaskapopo
03-09-13, 05:30
In my experience, this is just flat wrong. To an A zone hit at 5 yards from an open carry Fricke Gideon, there is no difference between my 226 and Glock 17 times -- both are .85 +/-. To a two inch dot from concealment at 7 yards, I am faster/more accurate with the DA first shot from the 226 than my G17/34. Two shots to a 3x5 at 7 yards, edge to the 226, and same for splits to the body. My one hand hit rate with the DA shot is better than the G34. A squared away friend that shot a 229 for work internationally about 60,000 rounds a year for five years told me, that with available time, he would choose to decock his 229 to make a difficult shot, as the rolling DA break is less susceptible to anticipation than a 1911 or Glock trigger, and that longer pull gave him more control. Bill Rogers told me on Thursday, that he never once missed the first head plate on the Rogers Range with his 226 DA in years of shooting a Sig. He says the 226 is his single favorite pistol.
I believe if folks think the DA shot is harder/less accurate, it will be. Conversely, if they think the DA press is a good thing, and practice it with many two shot drills so the DA/SA transition happens at a subconscious level, the DA press will be their friend not their enemy. I spent a bunch of time today drawing a 229 and 239 from a concealed appendix holster to a one inch square at 7 yards, shooting DA, and there is no other pistol I would rather do that with than a Sig.
My only question is how durable my Sig pistols will be with the high round counts I shoot.
I have found Glocks to be much faster on the first round vs Sigs and other DA designs. When my first department went from a mix of Beretta, Sigs and HK's to GLocks I noticed an improvement of 10 to 20% in most shooters on the course of fire and most of these points were from first round DA shots that used to be in the C or D no longer being there with the GLocks.
Pat
When my first department went from a mix of Beretta, Sigs and HK's to GLocks I noticed an improvement of 10 to 20% in most shooters on the course of fire and most of these points were from first round DA shots that used to be in the C or D no longer being there with the GLocks.
Pat
I don't doubt that one bit. Now take that same group, and teach them to really shoot the DA, and I bet their experience will mirror mine. I feel like I can be much more aggressive with the DA press, on my presentation while maintaining a high level of accuracy, because of the characteristics of the Sig trigger.
S. Galbraith
03-09-13, 11:13
I don't doubt that one bit. Now take that same group, and teach them to really shoot the DA, and I bet their experience will mirror mine. I feel like I can be much more aggressive with the DA press, on my presentation while maintaining a high level of accuracy, because of the characteristics of the Sig trigger.
All I will say is that if you are able to depress a long 10lb trigger as well as you can depress a short 5lb trigger with the same level of speed and sight picture control......then you are the exception, not the rule.
All I will say is that if you are able to depress a long 10lb trigger as well as you can depress a short 5lb trigger with the same level of speed and sight picture control......then you are the exception, not the rule.
I'm with GJM on this as his practice seems to mirror mine. After the draw and during presentation, it is very easy to take up the trigger during the press and time the trigger break at the point of full extension. The few extra pounds of trigger pull are not a factor.
And the benefit is that any follow up shot is shorter and lighter than the striker guns.
I have had Glocks and XDs and currently have a carry both a Sig P228 and M&P9. I practice with and carry both. Just two different tools for a job. I have no specific loyalty to one type or the other. It is the user the that must decide what works best for them.
Going from a 16 shot pistol to a 9 shot pistol is not a good idea in my opinion. Secondly the 220 is one of the most problematic of the sigs. I am not a fan of the DA SA system for reasons already stated. But in the end I believe people should carry what they want so long as they are competent with it. A psychological advantage is still an advantage. If you feel you shoot sigs better then go for it.
Yeah, the P220 is more problematic than it's P226-9mm brother, that I understand. But, the Glock 22 and 23 have well documented problems as well. And as I said earlier, this agency went from one to the other. There were no other choices in the equation. And my point was that I don't think just because the Glocks were Glocks that they were necessarily a better choice. Personally, if I were employed by that agency, I would be shooting nothing but DA/SA Sigs right now because that's the gun I am carrying or will be carrying soon. Doesn't matter if they want to, just matters that they're going to.
I am issued a Sig, but would carry a Glock if given the choice. That is more of a Chevy vs. Ford type of deal though. I will admit to jokingly bashing Sig to my guys & gals, but the only Sig I truly detest is the P232. That is the most common authorized secondary weapon we have and I have yet to see one run an entire qual without choking, especially with hp or frangible ammunition.
There is truth in what both sides of the debate are saying. From the LE side, most officers aren't going to train enough to become proficient. So from that perspective, it will be easier for officers to become proficient more quickly with the Glock, thus the reason Pat and others saw the scores improve.
GJM, the problem with taking the same group and teaching them to shoot the DA well (again from the LE perspective) is that most of the group is not going to show up and/or the agency isn't going to give up the ammo allotment it would take to accomplish that.
It doesn't matter how much you train, that first DA trigger pull on the Sig will be one of two things. Too slow because you are focused on not jerking the trigger, or inaccurate because you are rushing the pull. The first shot is always the most important, and everything after that is just playing catchup.
Saying that no matter how much you train you will either be too slow or snatch is a complete fallacy. In LAV's classes, he demonstrates and teaches you that you can pull the trigger quickly without snatching it. When LAV does his B&D drills, you have to complete the trigger pull in .35ish seconds. You can absolutely do that with a Sig. You also said that Ken Hackathorn doesn't recommend Sigs. The last class I took with Ken he specifically brought up the Sig (I think it was a 9mm 226, but don't want to misquote him) with SRT and short trigger and referred to is as a "pretty sweet set-up". That doesn't sound like a lack of recommendation to me.
No offense to Scott or John, but quoting a number of 1500 NPS Rangers is misleading. Even the biggest parks have, at most, 50 rangers. The NPS is more like 390 small agencies that are loosely connected. So each armorer and instructor has a pretty limited exposure. They might be taking care of 50 pistols and that is only if they are in a large park or are servicing a group of parks within a geographical area. This is not to denigrate your experience, but to put it in better perspective. Comparing an NPS armorer to another agency that has 1500 sworn is apples to basketballs. A large city or county that has that many will have a handful of people that service all of the weapons. Being one of that handful will allow you to see most all of the problems from a fairly significant statistical sample. The NPS has probably 300+ armorers all who see a fairly insignificant statistical sample. The pistols are also mostly poorly maintained. Most of the NPS doesn't keep round counts on the guns, but follow the 5 year maintenance cycle. Your example of FLETC is a much better example, but almost all of the FLETC Sigs were of the older, much more reliable pre-Cohen German variety.
All I will say is that if you are able to depress a long 10lb trigger as well as you can depress a short 5lb trigger with the same level of speed and sight picture control......then you are the exception, not the rule.
Depends what phase of shooting. With the pistol extended and the sights aligned, shorter/lighter is certainly an advantage as you will disturb the sights less. However, when presenting the pistol, I find the Sig DA trigger to be desirable, and prefer that to, for the sake of argument, drawing a Sig with the hammer cocked, as I can be much more aggressive DA presenting without worrying about crushing a short, light trigger.
The beauty of the Sig is you have have a DA trigger which is great to do a press out with, carry appendix, etc., and then for follow-up shots you have a trigger with the SRT better than any Glock or M&P trigger. Seems two trigger types is an advantage not a disadvantage?
While I wouldn't classify it as an advantage, I have not found the DA/SA trigger of the P226 to be a significant hinderance to fast and accurate shooting. I do slightly prefer the Glock trigger but the Sig is perfectly manageable. I do dislike the DAK trigger but the slide stop location is my biggest problem with the Sig.
I do dislike the DAK trigger but the slide stop location is my biggest problem with the Sig.
I also don't care for the DAK and have only run in to 2 people on my agency that use them. Neither used them well. I knew some Texas DPS Troopers that could shoot the shit out of them though. As someone earlier in the thread said; a good shooter can run pretty much any gun and run it well. I think it comes down to training.
I have lost track of the number of times people blame the magazines, Sig, etc. for the slide not locking to the rear. It is almost always their thumb sitting on the slide stop while shooting with a thumbs forward grip. It usually takes a lot of convincing (even though it never happens when they are shooting support hand only :rolleyes:)and then a fairly decent amount of retraining to move the support-hand thumb slightly outboard to keep it from riding the slide stop.
I have intermittent slide interference issues with the E2 grips, despite doing my best to splay my dominant thumb out. I put the "stock" grips on, and the problem went away. I think the shorter reach of the E2 grips puts my dominant thumb closer to the slide stop.
I have intermittent slide interference issues with the E2 grips, despite doing my best to splay my dominant thumb out. I put the "stock" grips on, and the problem went away. I think the shorter reach of the E2 grips puts my dominant thumb closer to the slide stop.
I never made that connection, but now that you mention it, most of the shooters that I notice having that problem have the E2 grips.
I also don't care for the DAK and have only run in to 2 people on my agency that use them. Neither used them well. I knew some Texas DPS Troopers that could shoot the shit out of them though. As someone earlier in the thread said; a good shooter can run pretty much any gun and run it well. I think it comes down to training.
I have lost track of the number of times people blame the magazines, Sig, etc. for the slide not locking to the rear. It is almost always their thumb sitting on the slide stop while shooting with a thumbs forward grip. It usually takes a lot of convincing (even though it never happens when they are shooting support hand only :rolleyes:)and then a fairly decent amount of retraining to move the support-hand thumb slightly outboard to keep it from riding the slide stop.
The DAK was fine for medium pace shooting at silhouette targets for qualification but fails at speed and also is harder to break a slow precise shot. I was in a class taught by Rob Leatham a few years back and he confirmed that he felt it was a handicap to fast accurate shooting as well. I ended up being the runner up in the competition at the end of the class (I think the guy who beat me had a DA/SA HK) so they can still be shot well. When we switched to Glocks a few months ago almost everyone's scores went up but the poorer shooters showed the most improvement. The top shooters didn't show much, if any, change because they can shoot most guns well with proper fundamentals.
From a training, logistics, cost and maintenance perspective going with SIG instead of Glock is, across the board, a downgrade.
We too are switching and the only one I can blame is Glock. We originally had 22's shipped in 1998/99. When we tried to put lights on them, TLR1's, we suffered a significant number of stoppages. I mean significant. It was scary. We played with the tightness of the light on the rail we changed bullet loads and we went to Glock for help. They blamed our magazine and recoil springs, then about 5 years old, and insisited we change them. We did. Still we had problems. We brought glock out to show them. They saw the failures first hand and they saw our detailed account of past failures. With that they agreed to replace all our 22's nearly for free. They gave us brand new Gen 3 22's, we thanked them, and asked if we could put our lights on those. Glock said that the only light that was sure to work was theirs. So with that we couldn’t put our TLR1'S back on them for fear of causing a problem for an officer on the street without having Glock's blessing. They also told us that we had to replace recoil springs and magazine springs every other year to the tune of about $3500. So at the end of the day we had a gun that Glock handed us for free along with a great big pile of liability if we were to use any light but theirs all while costing us $1700 more a year. Glocks are great and I carry a 19 every minute I'm not on duty and love it but it is so important to put a white light on a policeman's pistol that we had to switch to something else.
We too are switching and the only one I can blame is Glock. We originally had 22's shipped in 1998/99. When we tried to put lights on them, TLR1's, we suffered a significant number of stoppages. I mean significant. It was scary. We played with the tightness of the light on the rail we changed bullet loads and we went to Glock for help. They blamed our magazine and recoil springs, then about 5 years old, and insisited we change them. We did. Still we had problems. We brought glock out to show them. They saw the failures first hand and they saw our detailed account of past failures. With that they agreed to replace all our 22's nearly for free. They gave us brand new Gen 3 22's, we thanked them, and asked if we could put our lights on those. Glock said that the only light that was sure to work was theirs. So with that we couldn’t put our TLR1'S back on them for fear of causing a problem for an officer on the street without having Glock's blessing. They also told us that we had to replace recoil springs and magazine springs every other year to the tune of about $3500. So at the end of the day we had a gun that Glock handed us for free along with a great big pile of liability if we were to use any light but theirs all while costing us $1700 more a year. Glocks are great and I carry a 19 every minute I'm not on duty and love it but it is so important to put a white light on a policeman's pistol that we had to switch to something else.
Just out of curiosity, what did your agency choose to replace the Glocks?
John Hearne
03-10-13, 17:33
Does anyone here have experience with Gray Guns replacement extractor for the SS Slide P-220's ?
It seems to have great promise. I've got an almost final version and if it lasts another 150 rounds, it will have exceeded the last two new extractors from Sig. It has allowed me to start carrying my Match as a duty gun again.
John Hearne
03-10-13, 17:47
No offense to Scott or John, but quoting a number of 1500 NPS Rangers is misleading...This is not to denigrate your experience, but to put it in better perspective.
What you write is completely correct. However my opinions about Sig and their quality issues are not formed solely by my experience as an NPS armorer. (I would point out that I do receive the frantic e-mails from the lead armorer at FLETC, asking me to inspect XYZ pistols because they were manufactured in the year of a newly discovered bad batch of pistols.) Ever since I started having problems a number of years ago, I've been keeping a running mental file (and collection of broken parts). The more I read and researched and experienced, the more I became convinced. I've talked with or written to a large group of people with a great deal of experience - from noted Sig gunsmiths to current and former Sig employees to noted trainers.
I have it on good authority that an agency recently did some hardness testing on older Sig parts (1989 vintage) versus a current production gun. They found that the hardness of the new parts was only half that offered by the older parts.
Someone recently pointed me to an article from 2006 DAK's delivered to the Massachusetts State Police. Ultimately, trigger bars from a subcontractor did not meet spec and were dragging on the grip panels preventing the gun from firing. Sig's answer was to dremel the grip panels to add clearance. Never mind that if an officer changed grip, the problem would reoccur.
I also have it on good authority that an agency complained to Sig that their pistols had not been test fired as promised. Sig was incredulous and insisted they had been test fired. The agency then asked how that was possible as the whole batch had been shipped without extractors. Oops.
It seems that Sig is getting better as they learn how to properly implement lower quality parts into their existing designs. The other ugly truth is that very few end users will ever shoot their Sigs enough to see the difference. I just happen to be one of those people with the audacity to shoot the crap out of their Sigs.
Just out of curiosity, what did your agency choose to replace the Glocks?
Sig pistols
davebee456
03-10-13, 22:54
"I have it on good authority that an agency recently did some hardness testing on older Sig parts (1989 vintage) versus a current production gun. They found that the hardness of the new parts was only half that offered by the older parts."
Do think the frames and slides are softer? or the hammer, trigger bar, firing pin and smaller parts?
I have a brand new Sig P220R made 2011 and have 300 rounds through it, kinda worries me, maybe I should bought a M&P in 45.
1) If I was looking at a .45 alternative to the 220, and focused primarily on quality, it would be an HK.
2) Unless I am mistaken, John H. and I are aware of the same report on the parts testing. UNless he has additional information I didn't see, it is unclear what is meant by "current production," in terms of exact year, model, number of parts tested, how the hardness of current parts compared to competitive pistols, and whether the change in hardness resulted in parts failures. If I were you, I would shoot your 220, keep a log of rounds fired and any issues you encounter, and not lose any sleep over this.
DanjojoUSMC
03-10-13, 23:13
Any thoughts on this yet? Logical arguments that a recent Sig won't work as a service/defense pistol as well as others? Specific problems more frequent or as recent compared to others? History of not fixing said problem/s and flooding shelves with known problematic pistols?
Armorers who saw problem batches - what is the reasoning for thinking so and so other brands would not/could not have had similar problem batches? What company aside from HK is known for all in house manufacturing and same level QC for all batches?
The problem is which pistols have problems less frequent and less current. Is it the ones most touted and recommended...Glocks and M&P's? At least online, the huge anti-Sig wave came in 2009 and opinions don't change regardless of vast majority positive feedback during 2010-2012.
People often mention a bad batch of take-down levers from around 2005-2006 or problems with pistols manufactured 2004 or earlier. It could be relevant in some cases, but definitely not for someone looking to get a new pistol or two today.
Preference and push for striker fired pistols and accessories seems to taint the facts about frequency of problems for the others. If a problem or two or three is raised for the striker-fired angels there is long-term "I/my agency hasn't seen it/hasn't had any problems" but if a whisper about Sig problem is sensed it is "yeah Cohen sucks, Sig's ain't what they used to be"
Does anything solid in the last 2 years suggest you are more likely to get a pistol that is both accurate and reliable from Glock or S&W than Sig? If a bad batch or two keeps a 5 year no-buy seal what is there to buy?
DanjojoUSMC
03-10-13, 23:17
Also, metal parts in firearms are likely to have more problems being over-hardened than under.
Sucks for the local seamstress.
Going to lose a lot of business not having to patch bullet holes in pants legs.
1) If I was looking at a .45 alternative to the 220, and focused primarily on quality, it would be an HK.
2) Unless I am mistaken, John H. and I are aware of the same report on the parts testing. UNless he has additional information I didn't see, it is unclear what is meant by "current production," in terms of exact year, model, number of parts tested, how the hardness of current parts compared to competitive pistols, and whether the change in hardness resulted in parts failures. If I were you, I would shoot your 220, keep a log of rounds fired and any issues you encounter, and not lose any sleep over this.
1) Absolutely. I have an HK45c and after spending some time with it, I see no reason to shop elsewhere for a 45.
2) That is great advice. You can drive yourself mad researching things on the internet. Put some more rounds through it, maintain it properly, and rest easy.
From a training, logistics, cost and maintenance perspective going with SIG instead of Glock is, across the board, a downgrade.
Agreed. And that's nothing against SIG pistols, just the reality of the situation.
Depends what phase of shooting. With the pistol extended and the sights aligned, shorter/lighter is certainly an advantage as you will disturb the sights less. However, when presenting the pistol, I find the Sig DA trigger to be desirable, and prefer that to, for the sake of argument, drawing a Sig with the hammer cocked, as I can be much more aggressive DA presenting without worrying about crushing a short, light trigger.
The beauty of the Sig is you have have a DA trigger which is great to do a press out with, carry appendix, etc., and then for follow-up shots you have a trigger with the SRT better than any Glock or M&P trigger. Seems two trigger types is an advantage not a disadvantage?
GJM - I've followed your posts for awhile on here and I believe pistol forum, so I don't doubt at all you can shoot a SIG as fast and accurately as a striker fired Glock / M&P / PPQ / etc. That said, the average LE and armed civilian doesn't get a lot of formal instruction. One thing I've noticed with newer shooters is you make them shoot through that DA pull on their DA/SA pistol, and all of a sudden they don't like the weapon too much (in Fantasyland, apparently everyone has the time to cock the hammer before the bad guy attacks).
Give those same shooters a Glock, and watch their groups shrink. I know folks can train through a DA/SA platform, but FOR ME PERSONALLY... I want to devote that limited time to other things.
Another issue I have with DA's is the press out you mention. The validity of the press out is arguable (I personally like it - even on Glocks), but that aside - it isn't used all the time. Many officers will have their weapons out at times. Yes, I know you can train a press out from different positions, but one conversation popped into my mind thinking about the press out and it's pro's / con's....
I talked to a member of SWAT / SRT in a local city that has a very high crime rate. One of the techniques they are taught and practice is to get 3 rounds on the threat before the sidearm is at full extension. Using a DA trigger for a technique like this, or any retention position for that matter, is going to be more difficult and you don't have the press out technique to fall back on when fighting through that DA pull.
I really enjoyed reading the "other side" of the DA/SA vs Striker argument that you presented. Thanks for the contribution, brother.
Psalms144.1
03-11-13, 06:28
I look at it this way. Every company has periods of growing pains. Sig went through theirs, but appears to be coming out the other side. There seems to be a group of dedicated people in Exeter who are trying their darndest to re-establish Sig's reputation for reliability and accruacy. Whether they will succeed over the managers who are solely focused on profits remains to be seen.
Glock, likewise, is known for NEVER admitting there can be any flaws in "perfection." The 3rd Gen .40 S&W models multiple failures to function with attached weapons lights is one example; which they addressed by redesigning the RSA on the Gen4 guns. Of course, that (and other issues) led to the Gen4 9mm fiascos, which are on-going.
Bottom line, if I were in charge of outfitting an agency or department, and the powers that be INSISTED on .45 ACP, I would pick neither the excessively large G21 nor the capacity challenged P220. Either the M&P or the HK45 would be my choice.
Having said all that, if my agency wanted to issue me a TDA P220, and it proved reliable during transition, I wouldn't lose any sleep over what was in my holster. Up until 2006, my agency was Sig-only (issued P228s, authorized P239 or P226 as personal weapons), and I never had an issue with the "shootability" of my Sigs. In fact, I routinely out-shot my counterparts who were equipped with G22s; and many of them expressed that they wished they could carry Sigs (the grass is, in fact, always greener). For me, the DA trigger was perfectly workable, and definitely a small price to pay to get the Sig's wonderful SA trigger for remaining shots. That and the fact that the Sigs I shot were noticeably more mechanically accurate, and I had enough time behind the trigger to get the advantage out of that.
I wish these officers the best of luck with their new pistols, and hope that the Sigs bring those guys home every night...
Regards,
Kevin
S. Galbraith
03-11-13, 09:52
I look at it this way. Every company has periods of growing pains. Sig went through theirs, but appears to be coming out the other side. There seems to be a group of dedicated people in Exeter who are trying their darndest to re-establish Sig's reputation for reliability and accruacy. Whether they will succeed over the managers who are solely focused on profits remains to be seen.
The problem with Sig quality is a byproduct of the manufacturing process. Machining an alloy frame is VERY expensive......more so when you use high grade aluminum alloy which also wears down tool heads faster. Add a CNC stainless steel machined slide and the cost increases further. Given modern manufacturing processes with polymer injection mold technology, the classic Sig line has priced itself out of the market if it is of good quality. You can see the same issues with the modern Beretta 92. Like H&K, Sig should be discontinuing pistols as they become outdated(manufacturing-wise), and producing contract pistols that achieve the best balance of quality and updated manufacturing practices in order to keep it economical. Sig has never made a viable transition pistol to replace their classic line.
I do not see Sig's quality improving to the point that it can rival the old guns......simply because they would price themselves out of the market today. A forged billet of carbon steel that is machined down into a hammer and locking block will never be as economical as a metal injection molded part that is a fraction of the price.......and by all accounts a fraction of the durability. This is why the MIM parts on H&Ks are thicker by comparison, because it needs to be beefed up in comparison to a machined part. Greg Foster, the Federal rep left Sig for reasons that he would not disclose recently. However, he was spending most of his time towards the end traveling to the factory in Brazil which is where a lot of the pistol is made now days.
davebee456
03-11-13, 11:18
Wow!
I thought the slide, frame and barrel were made in exter usa
not brazil
S. Galbraith
03-11-13, 12:41
Wow!
I thought the slide, frame and barrel were made in exter usa
not brazil
I am not sure what parts are made where any more as it has changed so often. I have seen factory barrels with German proof marks, some with SAE markings, and some with none. Generally, small parts and springs are what primarily get outsourced. Nor am I sure what ratio need to be made in Germany/USA to keep the prized "Made in Germany" markings to make customers drool.
The problem with Sig quality is a byproduct of the manufacturing process. Machining an alloy frame is VERY expensive......more so when you use high grade aluminum alloy which also wears down tool heads faster. Add a CNC stainless steel machined slide and the cost increases further. Given modern manufacturing processes with polymer injection mold technology, the classic Sig line has priced itself out of the market if it is of good quality. You can see the same issues with the modern Beretta 92. Like H&K, Sig should be discontinuing pistols as they become outdated(manufacturing-wise), and producing contract pistols that achieve the best balance of quality and updated manufacturing practices in order to keep it economical. Sig has never made a viable transition pistol to replace their classic line.
I do not see Sig's quality improving to the point that it can rival the old guns......simply because they would price themselves out of the market today. A forged billet of carbon steel that is machined down into a hammer and locking block will never be as economical as a metal injection molded part that is a fraction of the price.......and by all accounts a fraction of the durability. This is why the MIM parts on H&Ks are thicker by comparison, because it needs to be beefed up in comparison to a machined part. Greg Foster, the Federal rep left Sig for reasons that he would not disclose recently. However, he was spending most of his time towards the end traveling to the factory in Brazil which is where a lot of the pistol is made now days.
If they stopped making the classic series, I think they would be out of the pistol business. Because I believe that they have tried to make transition pistols. The SP2022 and P250 were suppose to transition them out of the classic series, but most see the 2022 as a bargain pistol and we all know the problems the P250 has or had. Whether the P250 still has problems or not is irrelevant because the stigma of past problems still haunts the gun. Either way, right now, there is no alternative to classic series for them.
S. Galbraith
03-11-13, 13:21
If they stopped making the classic series, I think they would be out of the pistol business. Because I believe that they have tried to make transition pistols. The SP2022 and P250 were suppose to transition them out of the classic series, but most see the 2022 as a bargain pistol and we all know the problems the P250 has or had. Whether the P250 still has problems or not is irrelevant because the stigma of past problems still haunts the gun. Either way, right now, there is no alternative to classic series for them.
I am going to use HK as an example because they tend to transition pretty effectively. The VP70/P7/P9 were gradually phased out as the USP was successfully marketed.....the same transition is starting to occur with the P2000/P30 /HK45 as they replace the USP. They are doing the same with the aging MP5 to the UMP. Sig has tried to do something similar with the P2022 and the P250.....but it seems that they have practically throw in the towel after setbacks. It would not surprise me in the least if Sig plans to gradually get out of the handgun market as they seem to be focusing heavily on long gun development these days.
One would think that if they chose to focus not on making a billion different models and combinations and instead focus on maybe 5 or 6 core models and only those they would able to keep their production costs and check while pumping out volumes of quality manufactured pistols. Maybe that would be too easy though.
I am going to use HK as an example because they tend to transition pretty effectively. The VP70/P7/P9 were gradually phased out as the USP was successfully marketed.....the same transition is starting to occur with the P2000/P30 /HK45 as they replace the USP. They are doing the same with the aging MP5 to the UMP. Sig has tried to do something similar with the P2022 and the P250.....but it seems that they have practically throw in the towel after setbacks. It would not surprise me in the least if Sig plans to gradually get out of the handgun market as they seem to be focusing heavily on long gun development these days.
It's a different time though. The USP was released prior to the internet explosion. In contrast, both the SP2022 and the P250 were released after the internet became popular, so any mistakes made were magnified because they kept getting repeated. Consequently, while I've heard that Sig has ironed out the problems with the P250, I don't think many have the desire to test that theory out. I certainly don't. And let's be honest, the internet Sig haters have done a great job of being vocal about how many problems Sig has. Contrast that with the M&P which has had numerous problems, but doesn't get nearly the hate that Sig does. While you and or I may or may not think much of internet talk, it influences the way people think about products. It is without a doubt the biggest research and marketing tool out there right now. And it can work both for you and against you.
Also, the newer HK pistols share many, if not all of their internal parts with the USP line. Something they're not shy about saying. Same high quality internal parts, better ergonomics. This is something that works for them because as I said, the USP is a very solid pistol. So there's really not much of a transition here. If you like the USP, you'll like the P30/P2000/HK45 better. I could write a campaign in my sleep for those pistols.
Magic_Salad0892
03-11-13, 17:14
It would not surprise me in the least if Sig plans to gradually get out of the handgun market as they seem to be focusing heavily on long gun development these days.
It would surprise the hell out of me. They keep releasing pistols.
I am going to use HK as an example because they tend to transition pretty effectively. The VP70/P7/P9 were gradually phased out as the USP was successfully marketed.....the same transition is starting to occur with the P2000/P30 /HK45 as they replace the USP. They are doing the same with the aging MP5 to the UMP. Sig has tried to do something similar with the P2022 and the P250.....but it seems that they have practically throw in the towel after setbacks. It would not surprise me in the least if Sig plans to gradually get out of the handgun market as they seem to be focusing heavily on long gun development these days.
The thing is though, the P30 and HK45 are as good or arguably better than the usp. The P250 is a turd compared to the classic Sigs.
One would think that if they chose to focus not on making a billion different models and combinations and instead focus on maybe 5 or 6 core models and only those they would able to keep their production costs and check while pumping out volumes of quality manufactured pistols. Maybe that would be too easy though.
I would love to see Sig do this. Lose all the diamond plate rainbow colored zombie bullshit, and go back to making 5 or so really great models.
Agreed. And that's nothing against SIG pistols, just the reality of the situation.
GJM - I've followed your posts for awhile on here and I believe pistol forum, so I don't doubt at all you can shoot a SIG as fast and accurately as a striker fired Glock / M&P / PPQ / etc. That said, the average LE and armed civilian doesn't get a lot of formal instruction. One thing I've noticed with newer shooters is you make them shoot through that DA pull on their DA/SA pistol, and all of a sudden they don't like the weapon too much (in Fantasyland, apparently everyone has the time to cock the hammer before the bad guy attacks).
Give those same shooters a Glock, and watch their groups shrink. I know folks can train through a DA/SA platform, but FOR ME PERSONALLY... I want to devote that limited time to other things.
Another issue I have with DA's is the press out you mention. The validity of the press out is arguable (I personally like it - even on Glocks), but that aside - it isn't used all the time. Many officers will have their weapons out at times. Yes, I know you can train a press out from different positions, but one conversation popped into my mind thinking about the press out and it's pro's / con's....
I talked to a member of SWAT / SRT in a local city that has a very high crime rate. One of the techniques they are taught and practice is to get 3 rounds on the threat before the sidearm is at full extension. Using a DA trigger for a technique like this, or any retention position for that matter, is going to be more difficult and you don't have the press out technique to fall back on when fighting through that DA pull.
I really enjoyed reading the "other side" of the DA/SA vs Striker argument that you presented. Thanks for the contribution, brother.
Commenting on the considerations of a police department selecting a service pistol is completely out of my lane, and my comments relate solely to my own personal experience learning the Sig (which grew out of being told it was an impossible platform to shoot well).
During my range session today, where as an aside I just passed 3,650 rounds since new without a stoppage, I thought about the scenario you described of making multiple shots without the benefit of the press out. I hadn't really tested that with the Sig, but in my experience, the scenario you describe is where I can make a Glock choke, especially one hand. For example, shooting my Gen 4 34 with Aguila ball, which is about 125 PF, I am fine two hands, but making a aggressive presentation one hand, and shooting while still moving, I get a stoppage perhaps 25-35% of the time. I am not sure if this is a function of the lighter weight of the Glock, the properties of polymer, or something else. To test the Sig out, I went to 5 yards, and rather than do a press out, drew and fired as quickly as possible. I was getting two shots off, not three, by the time I was extended, in 1.06 on my better runs (.85 + .21 for the split, times provided only to show the DA trigger didn't seem to be a hindrance in fast shooting). Never a hint of a stoppage. My wife did the same with her Gen 3 Glock 34, and had intermittent stoppages. I did a bunch of extended confirm ready starts (Rogers School speak), both to steel fast and a one inch square at 7 yards, all DA, and felt like the Sig DA trigger was a positive not a negative.
I have been an HK fan boy for years (have LEM P2000 .40 serial numbers 124 and 125), but have been frustrated that as great as the HK platform is, I always shot a Glock better. All one has to do is compare the trigger on an HK DA/SA or LEM with a Sig SRT trigger, and if the criteria is trigger/pure shoot ability, it is end of discussion. (Now if someone could put an SRT trigger on a P30, it would be the end of the discussion.) The beauty of the Sig, is I shoot it even better than a Glock, but it has all the long trigger/hammer benefits of an HK. I am seeing splits on the 3x5 on a FASTest, and transitions with the Sig that I have never experienced with any other platform.
S. Galbraith, I am almost certain you had some comments about the desirability of the M11-A1 in a post I saw on my iPhone, but when I went to look at the thread on my computer, I couldn't find it. Can you comment on the M11-A1?
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