View Full Version : Optic for LE rural patrol use
I've got my new LMT on the way, now it's time to consider what, if any, optic to plan for. BTW, the LMT has the LMT fixed BUIS.
This will be used for my particular AO, which as a Conservation Officer is rural in nature primarily, and almost exclusively outdoors. It will be taken into wooded areas quite often, and on boat patrol.
Ruggedness in an optic is a prime consideration. As we don't have night vision, I have no use for that capability. Water resistance is required, but not necessarily water proof, as it will be going into damp environments but not planning on any underwater activities.
Possible daytime hostiles will almost always have a superior weapon system than my M4, and will be in some sort of concealment. Generally only a partial target will be exposed.
Ranges for use will vary more than most LE, as "felony" stops will be almost exclusively at night and probably less than 20 yards, while longer ranges will be almost exclusively daytime, and will concentrate in the 25-100 yard range, but could go up to probably 300+ yards. I would estimate use percentages as:
nighttime close (up to 20 yards) - 10%
daytime close (up to 25 yards) - 25%
daytime intermediate (25-100 yards) - 40%
daytime long (100-300 yards) - 20%
other - 5% or less
To complicate matters somewhat, for some reason my eyes have a hard time picking up a single RED dot in daylight, unless it is turned up to "retina sear" levels, and even then it just really isn't that quick for me. However, the Eotech with the larger circle helps, and an amber/yellow/orange just jumps right out at me, like it should.
As this will be paid for with personal funds, cost is of course a consideration. As much as I would like a S&B SD, it just ain't gonna happen.
Any suggestions from folks in a similar situation, who have already done the research, and/or have experience with possibly suitable systems?
the1911fan
03-05-08, 10:26
You might want to take a look at Leupold http://www.leupold.com/tactical/products/scopes/mark-4-cqt-riflescopes/
For your applications and preferred reticle it may be a good choice...I like the Leupold but for me it is not needed as I like Aimpoint RDS with a 3x magnifier (and the use of the magnifier is debatable in my patrol area)
Any experiences/thoughts on how one of the Trijicon Reflex II sights might fit into my applications? How rugged are they (police proof)?
I've read of the "washout" issue, but since my uses will be outdoor, I don't think it's much of an issue for me, at least in relation to the benefit of getting an amber reticle.
I use to have the Reflex II mounted on my M4A1 years ago. I got rid of it in favor of the Aimpoint Comp M because the "dot" would get washed out in bright sunlight. I like the idea of "no batteries" required, but the dot couldn't get bright enough for certain shooting conditions.
BushmasterFanBoy
03-09-08, 16:12
Get an Aimpoint M4 in LaRue mount with an Aimpoint 3x magnifier in a LaRue pivot mount. You have a good, unbeatable endurance red dot, and a magnifier for those longer shots at 100 yards and ID'ing distance objects farther out that can pivot out of the way when not in use.
Get an Aimpoint M4 in LaRue mount with an Aimpoint 3x magnifier in a LaRue pivot mount. You have a good, unbeatable endurance red dot, and a magnifier for those longer shots at 100 yards and ID'ing distance objects farther out that can pivot out of the way when not in use.
As I stated in my original post, red just doesn't jump out for my eyes like amber or orange does. Also the weight and costs would be unrealistic, for my uses.
IF red did, I would unhesitatingly get a T-1/H-1 in a Larue mount.
But it doesn't.
Get an Aimpoint M4 in LaRue mount with an Aimpoint 3x magnifier in a LaRue pivot mount. You have a good, unbeatable endurance red dot, and a magnifier for those longer shots at 100 yards and ID'ing distance objects farther out that can pivot out of the way when not in use.
I'd be surprised if he could afford that set-up on a cop's salery! ;)
As I stated in my original post, red just doesn't jump out for my eyes like amber or orange does.
IF red did, I would unhesitatingly get a T-1/H-1 in a Larue mount.
But it doesn't.
Sounds like the Eotech is a better, and more affordable, option for you. I use both a Eotech 552 and Aimpoint Comp M2. Either is fine for your use, but the Aimpoint 2 or 4 MOA may be too small for you. IMHO, I don't think you're going to be making 100 meter shots as an LEO unless you're a sniper!
Look into the Trijicon Tripower. I had a similar issue with the Aimpoint and found the Eotech was too busy for me. The chevron reticle on the Tripower is sublime once you set BS0, just cover and squeeze. Three forms of power make it nice, though I found the Tritium only washed in my tac-light. I have mine mounted in a LaRue 150 and just love it.
IMHO, I don't think you're going to be making 100 meter shots as an LEO unless you're a sniper!
I'm a State Conservation Enforcement Officer, aka Game Warden. I carry my rifle deep into the woods, sometimes miles at a time, on foot, therefore weight savings is crucial. I typically encounter hunters who are armed with scoped hunting rifles. Some areas I have entered, knowing I was going to arrest someone, have had potential lines of fire a loooooonnnnnngggg way.
Look into the Trijicon Tripower. I had a similar issue with the Aimpoint and found the Eotech was too busy for me. The chevron reticle on the Tripower is sublime once you set BS0, just cover and squeeze. Three forms of power make it nice, though I found the Tritium only washed in my tac-light. I have mine mounted in a LaRue 150 and just love it.
That sounds like a definite possibility. I hadn't even thought of it. Any more info/details you can provide?
i live in an enviroment that sounds very similiar to where you'll be working and i love this set-up(with the amber ret)....
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=140
G&R had the combo in stock as of recently.
I second the Compact ACOG. Either the 2x or 1.5x model. Can be used very well up close and gives target acquisition out to 200 yards. Also is better in low-light and uses no batteries. The LMT BUIS will have to go, however. You could sell/trade for a standard A4 carry handle and mount the ACOG on top. That might be the best option with with the fixed FSB you have, in order to keep the front sight ghost out of the low -magnification scope image.
That sounds like a definite possibility. I hadn't even thought of it. Any more info/details you can provide?
If you have an opportunity to try one, you should. If you lived near MA, I'd let you try mine. I wrote in another post that I had exactly that opportunity. I tested the Aimpoint, Eotech and the Trijicon Tripower. After several thousand rounds, I put my money on the Trijicon and never looked back. Truthfully, I don't find any of the three to be the "end all be all" - they all had their weaknesses, but I found the Trijicon to have the least. The chevron just flat out works for me - like I said - cover and squeeze. I have 10k 7.62x51 with the Trijicon on deck and am going to add it to my AR build - I have not been kind to this sight by the way. If there's anything I find wrong with it, lack of lens covers would be one, (haven't tried to retrofit) and batteries, (would like to see a AA version). Batteries are not really an issue though. It comes with 2 sets and I have yet to burn out the first one. Pop the bikini for daylight use, turn on for heavy overcast or dusk/darkness. You can add a magnifier to it, but I have not seen the need....
DutyRanger
03-12-08, 17:58
Deercop, I feel your pain. I'm an officer for a federal land management agency. Depending on my duty station, contact distances could range from a couple of feet to a couple hundred yards. I currently carry an AR for most situations. My AR has an aimpoint on it. I'm setting up a Springfield M1A scout rifle for the kind of stuff you're describing. I was trying to find a 1-4x scope for the Springfield. I won't go into all the details, but I couldn't find what I needed with an extended eye relief. I found a lot of 1-4x scopes out there. Many of them would probably work on an AR- be sure to get an illuminated reticle. My choice finally came down to a Burris 2-7x pistol scope. I would check into burris if I were you. I don't have personel experience with them, but I've heard nothing but good things, so I'm going to give them a try. Contact them DIRECT and ask for an LE rep. My stuff is coming out of my pocket, same as you. Ask them about LE pricing and get them to send you the order form. You won't be able to beat the prices. And like I said, everybody I've talked to about burris has good things to say.
ACOG TAO1 in a TA51 mount...
My thoughts (I also work for a federal land mgmt. agency, and am I firearms instructor):
75% of your shooting is described at 100 yards or less. Realistically its probably all of your potential shootings, unless you work on the border. 200 yard shots as an LEO are extremely rare, and might raise some use of force questions unless it was an narrowly defined case.
I used an ACOG TAO1 NSN for several years, and like it. For LEO use, especially backcountry travel I would recommend the ACOG because they are super durable. If you want a magnified scope.
I now use an EOTech, and steer most LEOs towards a zero magnification scope like the EO or Aimpoint. Most LEO shootings occur well within 100 yards, so I think you get the most benefit as a cop from speed, and heads up two-eyes-open shooting.
Go with Larue mounts for whatever you choose and you wont be sorry.
DutyRanger
03-13-08, 11:33
DNW- I agree for the most part. However, I think though that we should have the means to match our violators capability. A good 1-4x optic puts us on a little more level playing field. I think this is what deercop is trying to accomplish. He's trying to outfit his weapon to put him on a more level playing field with the poacher carrying 3-9x equipped rifles. While the vast majority of our engagements will take place at close distance (this is why I run aimpoint on my AR, close optic for close rifle), there is the possibility for longer length engagements. This is why I'm putting the M1A together- backcountry hunting patrol. We are missing this in training, I am a firearms instructor also, unfortunately I don't have the capability right now to make my officers practice longer range shooting. There was an example of this a few yrs ago. I'm sure you can probably correct me on the details, it was a big topic of discussion in federal land mgmt LE. The convicted killer that was up for parole, Cylde Dallas? I believe was his name. Wasn't he shot in the foot by an Idaho game warden, with an iron sighted garand, at something like 200 yrds? While I think the AR might not be the best caliber for these types of duties, deercop is probably limited to that weapon platform, I think magnified optics are a great benefit. HOWEVER, not to the sacrifice of iron sight fundamentals. Just my .02
I don't know the details on that shooting, and I have heard the argument of matching your clienteles weaponry, but I simply don't buy it. Bad Guy will always get the drop if he wants it with a long range high power rifle. Cop having bigger gun will not help that. In a 200 yard gunfight , I will be looking for cover, radio, and an exit. If Bad Guy can kill you at 200 yards he probably has a better position, and you probably don't know where he is.
My argument is simply to increase you chances of survival by giving yourself the biggest advantage for the most probable encounters. At the end of the day its about going home, not what might work in a 1% encounter.
Have you considered looking at the Trijicon Accupoint Model TR21 with the amber triangle, it is a 1.25-4 power scope and may meet your varying range needs.
http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=103&back_row=0&categoryID=5
Last week I received and mounted a TA33-8 (amber). After dark, I turned the house lights off (I live in the sticks), and stepped outside to check it out. WOW! The reticle was immediately noticeable. It was overcast outside, and I couldn't see squat at the end of my yard (100 yds or so), but the reticle was definitely visible. I hit the button on my Surefire 962, lit up the treeline, and the reticle was still obvious.
Also, the TA33-8 has the most "wiggle room" in eye relief of any magnified optic I've ever experienced.
I finally got my new TA33-8 (amber) out for some serious range time this week. I had sent a few rounds downrange last week, but was in a rush. Anyway, first I sighted in my Midwest Industries SPLP BUIS, then remounted the TA33. It took several groups to get it how I wanted it, since I can be somewhat anal about these things. Got it sighted in off a makeshift rest at 100 yards. I used a bicycle innertube to cover the fiber optic, to get a crisper sight picture.
I was consistently tearing the 10-ring of my bullseye targets apart, groups were pretty consistently around 1"-1.5" at 100 yards, using XM193 55 gr FMJ in my stock 16" LMT Defender 2000 with 1/7 twist. I really wasn't expecting such performance from that ammo with that twist barrel. To say I am pleased is an understatement. I then tried shooting from moving and oddball field positions, the fiber optic caused the reticle to immediately jump out at me.
I may have overanalyzed my decision, but my eyes see amber so much easier than red, and for my particular AO, I feel the 3x is a very wise decision. Some have scoffed at my stated uses of LE engagement at extended ranges, saying I'm not a sniper, etc., but the fact of the matter is long range engagements are definitely possible, as my suspects are typically armed with scoped hunting rifles.
sounds like you need a SPR 1-4x scope to me. Like a trijicon TR21 with Amber triangular reticle mounted in a Larue SPR-E mount for exteneded eye relief. The optic is 1.25-4x zoom and uses BAC like a RDS/HWS so it has great CQB potential. 4x zoom is plenty to reach out to 300yds+. The ACOG is also to blury for me to get precise long range shots... GL
check out larue.com to see the scope/mount combos. I believe the Trijicon TR21 in the SPR-E mount is around 700-750.
here's how that looks...
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q198/RallySoob/0813081738.jpg
Great choice with the TA-33 for rural operations! You can train to use the tip of the fiber optic tube as a rough sight for CQB work, and the reticle for everything else.
The added magnification and clarity will be an aid in target identification in the woods, over any unmagnified optic. Also, you picked a great lightweight choice for working on foot, as opposed to a relatively heavy and cumbersome dot/magnifier combo.
I have a TA-33-8 on a 16" build and love it. While I would not recommend it for 90% of LE duties, it is an outstanding choice for rural work, especially if you are in an area where the threat is more involved than only poachers - pot growers, smugglers, etc. Be safe.
Look at a Aimpoint CompC3, best value for a red dot, and put a 3X behind it..............very nice, and toooooooo expensive of a set up.
Here's what I've used in the past. I still have it but I've switched to an LMT CQBR 10.5" upper the last couple years. It's much easier to keep that version in the front of the car to bail out with if needed.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/goddamnit/NSNcloseup.jpg?t=1220764886
As a side note I bought that J point and KAC mount from Grant back in 2003 or so and I still haven't changed the batteries in the J point. Damn thing's still running.
It was a decent combo that worked for me.
Also the J point is more of an orange or amber color as opposed to red, if that's of any help at all.
CarlosDJackal
09-10-08, 11:12
IMHO, you are looking for either an S&B Short Dot ($$$$), a Nightforce 1-4x NXS ($$), or something similar ($?). Just make sure you get something that does not interfere with your gun rack, is illuminated so that it is still useful in low-to-no light, and is at least a 4x at the high end.
Good luck and stay safe!!
decodeddiesel
09-12-08, 16:04
Last week I received and mounted a TA33-8 (amber). After dark, I turned the house lights off (I live in the sticks), and stepped outside to check it out. WOW! The reticle was immediately noticeable. It was overcast outside, and I couldn't see squat at the end of my yard (100 yds or so), but the reticle was definitely visible. I hit the button on my Surefire 962, lit up the treeline, and the reticle was still obvious.
Also, the TA33-8 has the most "wiggle room" in eye relief of any magnified optic I've ever experienced.
I finally got my new TA33-8 (amber) out for some serious range time this week. I had sent a few rounds downrange last week, but was in a rush. Anyway, first I sighted in my Midwest Industries SPLP BUIS, then remounted the TA33. It took several groups to get it how I wanted it, since I can be somewhat anal about these things. Got it sighted in off a makeshift rest at 100 yards. I used a bicycle innertube to cover the fiber optic, to get a crisper sight picture.
I was consistently tearing the 10-ring of my bullseye targets apart, groups were pretty consistently around 1"-1.5" at 100 yards, using XM193 55 gr FMJ in my stock 16" LMT Defender 2000 with 1/7 twist. I really wasn't expecting such performance from that ammo with that twist barrel. To say I am pleased is an understatement. I then tried shooting from moving and oddball field positions, the fiber optic caused the reticle to immediately jump out at me.
I may have overanalyzed my decision, but my eyes see amber so much easier than red, and for my particular AO, I feel the 3x is a very wise decision. Some have scoffed at my stated uses of LE engagement at extended ranges, saying I'm not a sniper, etc., but the fact of the matter is long range engagements are definitely possible, as my suspects are typically armed with scoped hunting rifles.
Awesome choice! I am completely in love with my TA33-8 (amber) as well. I am a huge Aimpoint fan after using an M68 in Iraq, but the 3x magnification and resolution of the TA33 make it hard to beat for anything other than extreme close ranges. If I were you though I would try to run through some drills at CQB ranges with it as much as possible. It does take some getting used to, especially if you're used to a RDS or Irons at CQB ranges, but it's not impossible. Fast controled pairs at close range are do able (<5 yards) but you are going to need to learn how to "tune out" the magnification and shoot the reticle. Above all else though, enjoy your new scope!!!
MisterWilson
09-12-08, 16:16
I too was going to recommend the TA33-8. For the requirements you listed I think it would suit you perfectly.
Something you might want to consider would be a butler creek flip cap for the front. When in covered in daylight it can act much like a reflex optic for close ranges.
This is my "primary" M4 as she currently is. It's a LMT Defender 2000. Everything that's been changed or added is because of a definite reason, not just because it looks cool. It has the AAC Blackout flash suppressor, GG&G 1913 rail piece, Surefire 6P w/ LED mounted in Vltor scout mount, Colt side-sling adapter, BFG VCAS padded sling, Magpul CTR stock, Tango Down Battlegrip, Midwest Industries SPLP BUIS, and a Trijicon ACOG TA33-8 with Butler Creek flip caps.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa311/gunslinger902/LMT-left.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa311/gunslinger902/LMT-right.jpg
decodeddiesel
09-12-08, 17:35
I too was going to recommend the TA33-8. For the requirements you listed I think it would suit you perfectly.
Something you might want to consider would be a butler creek flip cap for the front. When in covered in daylight it can act much like a reflex optic for close ranges.
Funny enough, I have tried the flip cap technique...it works well, but I seem to be able to use it in CQB faster with it open. I did have formal training on a TA-31F in the Army though so I think that helps.
decodeddiesel
09-12-08, 17:37
This is my "primary" M4 as she currently is. It's a LMT Defender 2000. Everything that's been changed or added is because of a definite reason, not just because it looks cool. It has the AAC Blackout flash suppressor, GG&G 1913 rail piece, Surefire 6P w/ LED mounted in Vltor scout mount, Colt side-sling adapter, BFG VCAS padded sling, Magpul CTR stock, Tango Down Battlegrip, Midwest Industries SPLP BUIS, and a Trijicon ACOG TA33-8 with Butler Creek flip caps.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa311/gunslinger902/LMT-left.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa311/gunslinger902/LMT-right.jpg
SWEET!!!! I love it! :cool: Now that is a no non-sense all business work carbine! Well done Sir. I hope you have plenty of P-mags for it!
MisterWilson
09-12-08, 23:16
The only two remaining upgrades I would consider would be a LaRue mount for the ACOG & THIS (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291907)for the light.
The LaRue mount places the ACOG slightly lower. This makes for, in my opinion, a much better view. With the factory mount I find it higher than I would like while the LT mount places it right in the sweet spot.
As far as the LED upgrade I linked to, I'm not affiliated with the gentleman in any way, shape, form, or fashion. I'm just a guy who bought one and thinks it rocks.
It has better throw and brightness than my new Surefire X300, MUCH better throw than an older Surefire Scout/M600, and better than the G2LED bulb it replaced. While they rate it at 290 lumens, it's actually closer to 200 or so from what I've heard, however at only $20 delivered it's well worth it. I believe it also gets ~5 hours of life so you're not losing much.
I was aware of, considered, and rejected, both of those items.
In regards to the Larue mount, it would cause the ACOG to sit lower, therefore causing a larger "shadow" from the front sight in the field of view. The "quick release" function is also low on my list of priorities.
In regards to the bulb, there IS such a thing as too much light in certain LE applications. IMO the 6P w/ LED is perfect for my normal ops. On the rare occasion that I should I determine I need more light, I also have a M962 that would readily clamp to the rail piece.
But thanks for the suggestions.
Failure2Stop
09-13-08, 00:20
Deercop-
It looks like you probably need to adjust that sling. As it is you have pretty much lost the versatility of the VCAS and produced a snag/catch hazard with the loose front. Now to be fair I have never used that padded version, but given the use/concept of the standard VCAS, I don't see why they would make the padded version incaipable of achieving the same simplicity and ease of use.
About the light-
While the GG&G rail is ok for home/hobbyist use I don't think that it is going to stand up to the thrashing that the woods can give gear, especially if you actually wind up in a gunfight. Also, since the HG is not parallel to bore, the light is going to be pointing down and right, and probably pretty distinctly so at around 25 yards. Since you carry a gun in the line of duty for the protection of others and yourself, you are hereby included in the "Serious User" category. As such, I would recommend that a serious user invest in a good light/mount system. Understandably you might not want/need a rail system. In that case one of the SF dedicated light systems will definitely out-perform your current setup. The M500A (http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main.pl?pgm=co_disp&func=displ&sesent=00&carfnbr=127) forearm is a simple and very effective replacement for your top handguard. Admittedly at $525 (from SureFire) it is not inexpensive. However that cost is pretty reasonable when compared to the option of buying a new railed HG, a light of equal performance, and possibly a mount.
I would not recommend an LED for anything past about 50 yards in the woods other than as a target indicator. An incandescent light of equal power and reflector size to an LED will work much better when it comes to positive ID and cutting through fog and smoke. While the higher powered LEDs are much better than the low power LEDs in CQB, the incan holds it's own outside and for sheer ability to "power through" airborne crap. The advantage of the LED over the incan is battery life and shock resistance, which are easily overcome with proper planning and fore-sight (and you don't need to worry about shock-resistance with the M500A). Naturally, utilization of white light outdoors is a balance of tactical decisions, and whether using an LED of Incandescent, it can easily become a detriment if employed improperly.
One more thing- you might want to seriously consider an MRD of some flavor to supplement the TA33 in case you find yourself in a situatio where you are at close range and using a light.
Anyway, just my opinion and experience. By and large you are up and running with a decent concept. A little tweaking to caipability and you will have a formidable tool at your disposal.
Oh, and BTW- don't be afraid to put the gun on SAFE if you aren't up on a threat. :p
ETA- after seeing your latest post that came while I was typing this-
Quick release levers are as important as your BUIS, because without them you will not be able to get a properly tensioned mount off of your gun in a timely manner unless you literally go into the fight with a Multi-Tool in your hand.
While there is definately the concept of too much light, it rarely applies to outside an enclosure. I have many time wished I had a more powerful light, and never wished I had less. This is, of course, experiece that may not be reflected in your work.
I have the front part of the sling partially secured with a piece of bicycle innertube, to keep it shorter than normal. A slight tug and it pops loose. Probably why it looks FUBAR to you. Then again I could have it FUBAR, it's the first VCAS I've used.
I have owned (and sold) a M500a before. Wasn't my cup of tea. I've also got a M73 foreend, not my cup of tea either. I ran both of those for an entire hunting season, just to give them a thorough workout in my environment.
Actually my light use with a carbine is minimal, I could probably make do without a light, but you never know. 99% of my dim light use of a long gun is on vehicle stops, and on those occasions I unrack the company-owned Remington 870.
The weapon is off-safe in the pic because I always store my long guns in "cruiser ready", ie hammer down on empty chamber, safety off. Old habits.
ETA: Leatherman "Wave" is on my duty belt.
Failure2Stop
09-13-08, 00:36
The weapon is off-safe in the pic because I always store my long guns in "cruiser ready", ie hammer down on empty chamber, safety off. Old habits.
Aw, I was just yankin' yer chain. I even threw in the squinty-tongue guy to indicate so - :p.
Gotcha on the innertube/sling- looked like electrical tape. You wouldn't believe the things I have seen people do to good gear and then bitch about it not working.
As far as the rest-
Seems like you tried out a few things and selected what meets your needs.
As long as you're happy, I'm happy.
You wouldn't believe the things I have seen people do to good gear and then bitch about it not working.
So you've met some people from my department? ;)
deercop, I too work in a very rural environment..........you might look at Hahn Precision's forward light mount. I like it as it keeps everything in line, with nothin hanging off to the side, and the light is even on the target.
I know some don't like the tape switch thing, but keep the cord secured down, and I've not had any problems.
http://w3.gorge.net/scshields/hahnmount.jpg
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