AZ Republicans put forth bill that may prevent athiests from graduating high school. [Archive]

View Full Version : AZ Republicans put forth bill that may prevent athiests from graduating high school.

Magic_Salad0892

01-26-13, 16:49

MountainRaven

01-26-13, 19:49

I don't see how an Atheists use of "So help me God" somehow changes its meaning. It surely doesn't when they blaspheme ("Oh, God/My God", "Goddammit", &c.).

Honu

01-26-13, 20:08

Its a oath ?
bill does not say they wont graduate ?

Talk about stupid title of your post to sensationalize stuff head back to arfcom

Koshinn

01-26-13, 20:16

"that I take this obligation freely"

lol it's not taken freely if it's a requirement to graduate

J8127

01-26-13, 20:20

What a stupid bill.

FYI, the Oath of Enlistment has options, you can say affirm instead of swear and you don't have to say so help me god. I've never seen anybody not just say the damn thing and move on with their lives though.

Littlelebowski

01-26-13, 20:21

I don't see how an Atheists use of "So help me God" somehow changes its meaning. It surely doesn't when they blaspheme ("Oh, God/My God", "Goddammit", &c.).

Explain to me how an atheist can blaspheme.

xrayoneone

01-26-13, 20:30

Explain to me how an atheist can blaspheme.

To some people the very act of atheism is blasphemy, as is this question.

Atheism is a religion, even though atheists refuse to acknowledge their belief in nothing is actually a belief in something. It is, after all, an Ism which by its very existence requires the belief of something. Which in this case is the great I AM NOT, as opposed to others belief in the great I AM.

MountainRaven

01-26-13, 20:32

Explain to me how an atheist can blaspheme.

Would you like a definition of the word "blaspheme"? Because that's what my response would boil down to.

ETA: Post-sniped. So, here goes the definition:

"blaspheme (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blaspheme), v. 1, to speak of or address with irreverence."
(fr. Merriam-Webster's online dictionary)

Belief is irrelevant.

opmike

01-26-13, 20:32

Atheism is a religion, even though atheists refuse to acknowledge their belief in nothing is actually a belief in something. It is, after all, an Ism which by its very existence requires the belief of something. Which in this case is the great I AM NOT, as opposed to others belief in the great I AM.

Oh boy, here we go again.

Sorry, but you are mistaken.

xrayoneone

01-26-13, 20:32

How so?

Koshinn

01-26-13, 20:36

To some people the very act of atheism is blasphemy, as is this question.

Atheism is a religion, even though atheists refuse to acknowledge their belief in nothing is actually a belief in something. It is, after all, an Ism which by its very existence requires the belief of something. Which in this case is the great I AM NOT, as opposed to others belief in the great I AM.

By that logic you can distill anything into a belief.

Koshinn

01-26-13, 20:37

Would you like a definition of the word "blaspheme"? Because that's what my response would boil down to.

ETA: Post-sniped. So, here goes the definition:

"blaspheme (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blaspheme), v. 1, to speak of or address with irreverence."
(fr. Merriam-Webster's online dictionary)

Belief is irrelevant.

According to oxford:
"speak irreverently about God or sacred things"

MountainRaven

01-26-13, 20:41

Oh boy, here we go again.

Sorry, but you are mistaken.

I don't care what you believe as regards God or gods or lack thereof, but atheism is a religion. Utterly and completely unorganized, but a religion none-the-less.

By that logic you can distill anything into a belief.

I, for one, firmly believe that America is both a religion (unconnected to any divinity, beyond those named Liberty and Freedom) and a country.

According to oxford:
"speak irreverently about God or sacred things"

My point, sir.

opmike

01-26-13, 20:41

How so?

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of theism and atheism.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what is and isn't a religion.

Basically, you're operating with false premises and then you're deriving false conclusions.

Instead of me typing up another rant on this topic, I'll just direct you to a previous post of mine:

http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1511984&postcount=85

xrayoneone

01-26-13, 20:43

By that logic you can distill anything into a belief.

Any belief is a belief. How can it not be a belief is someone believes it? I know I'm going all Master Po here but please define to me how someone can believe yet not believe? If you do not believe you are believing in the not. Those that do believe believe in the am.

- ism is in the dictionary as is Ism. By the very definition ism/Ism signifies a belief.

As does JudaISM.

CatholacISM.

BuddhISM

HinduISM

AtheISM

MountainRaven

01-26-13, 20:48

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of theism and atheism.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what is and isn't a religion.

Basically, you're operating with false premises and then you're deriving false conclusions.

Instead of me typing up another rant on this topic, I'll just direct you to a previous post of mine:

http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1511984&postcount=85

From the quoted post: "There are no dogmas. There are no creeds. There are no holy texts. There are no leaders."

Shinto has no dogmas, no creeds, no texts, and no leaders. This is true of virtually all other surviving animistic, er, 'theisms'. And yet for most people, they are called 'religions'.

ETA: Brought up by -one- in a note to me:

"religion (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion), n. 4, a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith."

As -one- said, "In other words, contrary to opmike's opinion, a religion does not require dogma, creeds, or even deities".

xrayoneone

01-26-13, 20:53

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of theism and atheism.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what is and isn't a religion.

Basically, you're operating with false premises and then you're deriving false conclusions.

Instead of me typing up another rant on this topic, I'll just direct you to a previous post of mine:

http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1511984&postcount=85

My understandings are quite good of both theism and atheism.

My premises are sound. The simple fact is many atheists are so against the belief of others SOMETHING that they start foaming at the mouth when it is pointed out to them that their belief in nothing actually becomes a belief in something, which is nothing.

Born by accident, die by accident and nothing beyond.

Born in his image die by his will go to the great beyond.

They are both beliefs, they are both ISMs.

montanadave

01-26-13, 20:56

I swear to god (merely an expression of speech, mind you), these seemingly endless, pointless, and mindnumbing threads involving religious belief and non-belief sound more and more like a Monty Python skit with each succesive iteration.

MountainRaven

01-26-13, 21:18

Gramps

01-26-13, 21:24

Koshinn

01-26-13, 21:34

Anyway, atheism is probably a belief. But it is definitely not a religion.

LHS

01-26-13, 21:36

http://politix.topix.com/homepage/4312-az-bill-could-prevent-atheists-graduating-high-school

Possibly. Then again, isn't that also the same oath that you take when you join the armed forces?

Does that mean that athiest service members intentionally lie to get in?

*facepalm*

Sometimes my state makes me shake my fist in the air for joy. Sometimes my state makes me shake my head in disbelief. This is one of the latter.

TomMcC

01-26-13, 21:37

I'm not going to get too far into this, but " there is no dogma" is a dogma, and "there is no creed" is a creed. These are examples of self refuting statements. It's the same type of thing as saying "there is no absolute truth".