View Full Version : Forum Decorum
Doc Safari
01-31-13, 15:35
It doesn't really happen to me personally that often, but it's irritating anyway.
Does anybody else notice that some people reply to threads not to share knowledge or offer a well-thought-out disagreement, but merely to attack another post as being the product of an uneducated moron while simultaneously proving to the world that the person making the reply must be an undiscovered SME?
Just curious.
This general, societal lack of civility is getting on my nerves. Can't anyone disagree without being an asshole anymore?
thopkins22
01-31-13, 15:42
It doesn't really happen to me personally that often, but it's irritating anyway.
Does anybody else notice that some people reply to threads not to share knowledge or offer a well-thought-out disagreement, but merely to attack another post as being the product of an uneducated moron while simultaneously proving to the world that the person making the reply must be an undiscovered SME?
Just curious.
This general, societal lack of civility is getting on my nerves. Can't anyone disagree without being an asshole anymore?
This forum used to be primarily end users who demanded a lot from their weapons, put a lot of rounds through them, and generally were pretty educated as to how and why things worked. If someone needed help/clarification on one of those things they asked in a pseudo professional manner.
There has been a MASSIVE influx of new users to the platform and whom surely not interested in using them in the same manner. I think people go from thread to thread, and find themselves getting a little short.
This forum used to be primarily end users who demanded a lot from their weapons, put a lot of rounds through them, and generally were pretty educated as to how and why things worked. If someone needed help/clarification on one of those things they asked in a pseudo professional manner.
There has been a MASSIVE influx of new users to the platform and whom surely not interested in using them in the same manner. I think people go from thread to thread, and find themselves getting a little short.
Actually I believe he's upset because a few people criticize the tin foilers.
Doc Safari
01-31-13, 15:54
Actually I believe he's upset because a few people criticize the tin foilers.
Not at all. I consider the tinfoil posts entertainment and nothing more.
I just way too many instances where someone gives an opinion and they are attacked like they must be stupid to even think such a thing.
I haven't read any examples on this forum today.
I guess a lot of it comes from reading too many threads on TOS, so I don't want anyone to think I'm criticizing M4C.
I'm just complaining about lack of decorum among some members of ANY forum.
Not at all. I consider the tinfoil posts entertainment and nothing more.
I just way too many instances where someone gives an opinion and they are attacked like they must be stupid to even think such a thing.
I haven't read any examples on this forum today.
I guess a lot of it comes from reading too many threads on TOS, so I don't want anyone to think I'm criticizing M4C.
I'm just complaining about lack of decorum among some members of ANY forum.
Ok, my mistake.
This place has always been rough, that hasn't changed. I think maybe what your referring to is a growing number of members looking to make themselves look sharp at the expense of others who are just trying to learn.
If you want a great example of this, check the recent thread about diminished post counts in Site Comments and notice 1911something's remarks. Pure negative showmanship and a poor reflection on the poster.
It doesn't really happen to me personally that often, but it's irritating anyway.
Does anybody else notice that some people reply to threads not to share knowledge or offer a well-thought-out disagreement, but merely to attack another post as being the product of an uneducated moron while simultaneously proving to the world that the person making the reply must be an undiscovered SME?
Just curious.
This general, societal lack of civility is getting on my nerves. Can't anyone disagree without being an asshole anymore?
Yes sir. I have noticed it and it is irritating.
KrampusArms
01-31-13, 18:53
This site has always seemed professional to me, with some A-holes here & there. The thing is, I usually always end up gleening great advice or learning something new.
Not so much on TOS. (I'm not a member but I do frequent to read). On TOS, I find myself panning the silt, trying to wash away all the childish crap to get that nugget of useful material. There is some really good stuff there, but I get burned out on the retarded "memes" & pictures folks post.
M4C is a cut above. I haven't been around long, but I enjoy it vastly more. Even if it become a dick measuring contest at times.
This was added by JSantoro recently in one of the AR General Discussion Stickies. A well laid out "Guide" by Army Chief.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=121147
Hopefully members new and old will refer to it prior to making an ass of themselves. Personally I would like to see this thread title in Big Red Letters with "Read this FIRST before posting OR ELSE!" ;)
Moose-Knuckle
01-31-13, 20:31
It doesn't really happen to me personally that often, but it's irritating anyway.
Does anybody else notice that some people reply to threads not to share knowledge or offer a well-thought-out disagreement, but merely to attack another post as being the product of an uneducated moron while simultaneously proving to the world that the person making the reply must be an undiscovered SME?
Just curious.
This general, societal lack of civility is getting on my nerves. Can't anyone disagree without being an asshole anymore?
It's called penis envy.
montanadave
01-31-13, 20:33
It's easy to lose perspective.
There are almost 65,000 M4C members. Not unusual to see 7500-10,000 folks viewing the forum. And there are probably less than a dozen members who seem to regularly come off like dicks.
All in all, that's not too bad.
Unfortunately, here (as in almost all aspects of society), those speaking the loudest or saying the most obnoxious/outlandish things seem to garner the most attention. Which, I would respectfully submit, is exactly what they are craving.
montanadave
01-31-13, 20:34
It's called penis envy.
OK, well, that's like the condensed version. :D
Alaskapopo
02-01-13, 01:11
People are more on edge I think because of recent events threatening our 2nd amendment rights so tempers flare up faster.
Pat
It has become a whole different breed on here lately. And sometimes I get the feeling that this "Breed's" family tree doesn't have any branches. I think there are those that come here to try to let the world know that their name is "Kemo Swahuligan", which translated means, "Know's Nothing, Tells All". And some of these are right ready to key board commando jump down someone else's throat to show/prove this. But there actually are quite a few here to learn, and others to impart good knowledge. Some just need to grow a thicker skin, and think before posting.
PS: I think Pat is right too.
Concur.
We should be able to discuss and disagree without disparaging remarks, childish ultimatums, challenges, or attacks.
Sometimes, it's the NKOTB who thoughtlessly posts; sometimes it's the "old timers" who think their post count gives them instant credibility, authority, and omnipotence.
Sometimes, we just need to agree to disagree.
People get very passionate about their hobbies and politics, combine that with the anonymity of an internet forum and some will cross the line.
It's ok to disagree. It's even acceptable to have a heated exchange, if it can stay civil, but what I find very adolescent is when the same members (names omitted) purposely follow each other around from thread to thread just to argue/disprove the other's point of view. It's like they track each others posts just so they can pounce on every word.
Good god people, grow up.
Doc Safari
02-01-13, 09:12
People are more on edge I think because of recent events threatening our 2nd amendment rights so tempers flare up faster.
Pat
I actually have to disagree here. I've observed the phenomenon for years. It seems like there was a "golden age" of internet firearms forums in the early 2000's and things started to go to shit late in the decade. It seems like normal members started using trolling tactics just to up their own internet "street cred" or something.
For example, I remember reading smart-ass ad hominem posts like those by rob_s starting a few years ago, but that type of post used to be what trolls would post and no one else.
IMHO.
These are great threads to review once in awhile.
An un-qualified opinion - (discussion)
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307
M4C Mission Statement
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1497
It has become a whole different breed on here lately.
More like "annually."
Usual is: post-Xmas (guns as gifts) + post-SHOT Show.
BIG influx of new members that happens every year, like clockwork. ADD to that the climate brought on by the Sandy Hook shootings and the influx of agitated folks that happened well before we USUAL surge we see.
I'm not seeing anything different, on the whole, other than how much earlier the influx started and that it was comprised of more people than usual. Same behaviors, however, and the only differences lie in how they're manifesting themselves.
Report Post, folks. Guarantees review, and subsequent corrective action if it's warranted. And, speaking of nnual trends, the "how bad the forum's getting" gripes tend to increase as the usage of Report Post declines.
If one can't bring himself to use Report Post, and simply MUST post replies to the jerks, include the link to Army Chief's Good/Bad/Ugly thread, clinked in 3AE's post, above. It's actually a stickied thread here in GD, and is better than simply responding in kind....
merely to attack another post as being the product of an uneducated moron while simultaneously proving to the world that the person making the reply must be an undiscovered SME?
Give the MODs a break. They're doing the best they can! :sarcastic:
brickboy240
02-01-13, 11:01
I think the stress is getting to many of us.
The job market, the political climate, the changing of our society...it all adds up and gets to us.
Then, we toss in this latest gun control nonsense and the shortages and price spikes and yeah...tempers flare.
However, this place is ten times more civil than some other gun forums. Spend 5 minutes on AR-15.com or Glock Talk and you'll see what I mean.
-brickboy240
There's no doubt about that, Brickboy.
Ain't Liberal America GREAT? :rolleyes:
RogerinTPA
02-01-13, 12:23
People are more on edge I think because of recent events threatening our 2nd amendment rights so tempers flare up faster.
Pat
I think the uptick in dickish behavior began about 3 years ago. Some folks I find hilarious with their comments, while others are just total douches, but it has always been an underlying tone for a chosen few...
I think the uptick in dickish behavior began about 3 years ago.
It's a thin line between smacking down the complete idiots and helping out the newer guys.
No one wants the forum to sink to ARFcom levels of retardation... but if you run out of topics if the answer to everything is hit SEARCH. :mad:
Good times, bad times, stress, no stress, politics, etc. are all lame excuses for rude behavior. Some people are just dicks. That is why Moderators are necessary.
Suwannee Tim
02-02-13, 12:13
The shooting sports attract more than it's fair share of idiots and assholes. In academic, canoeing, wilderness and cycling groups which I have personal experience with there seems to be five or six percent of the participants are difficult in some way or another. In the shooting sports that number is higher, some places a lot higher, maybe as high as thirty or forty percent. The more difficult the discipline the fewer the assholes for example, you will find more assholes on the seven yard pistol range than on the two hundred yard rifle range. It's a pretty easy thing to get a login on M4C so the asshole exposure is high. Another factor is the anonymity and distance of the internet makes it safe and easy to get away with provocative remarks. I have found myself in the past falling into this pattern and decided to hold myself to a higher standard. My standard is if I won't say it to your face then I won't say it on the forum. I give myself a little wiggle room in calling out liars and pretenders. Another factor is poor behavior on the part of a few is emulated by others which is emulated by even more and you have an accelerating decay of civility which results in a chaotic free for all. I come here to enjoy myself and learn not to engage in pissing matches so I am against the uncivil behavior. I sometimes call people out for it but it seldom gets any traction so I mostly don't.
RogerinTPA
02-02-13, 15:06
It's a thin line between smacking down the complete idiots and helping out the newer guys.
No one wants the forum to sink to ARFcom levels of retardation... but if you run out of topics if the answer to everything is hit SEARCH. :mad:
Agreed, we definitely do not want TOS behavior. Smacking down an idiot is one thing. Purposely trolling just to be a tool later in the thread...is something else.
Agreed, we definitely do not want TOS behavior. Smacking down an idiot is one thing. Purposely trolling just to be a tool later in the thread...is something else.
Yep. This site still is really good. I've had a few more stalkers recently, but by far... that crap is much more the exception that some of the other sites.
Alaskapopo
02-02-13, 15:55
People also just need to learn some tolerance. Live and let live. If some one disagrees with you not the end of the world.
Pat
I've had a few more stalkers recently, but by far... that crap is much more the exception that some of the other sites.
I was thinking about stalking you too, but then I realized I would just get lost in the crowd. Took me a few days and some tears to get over it, now I think I'll be ok thanks to mom.
:D
This was added by JSantoro recently in one of the AR General Discussion Stickies. A well laid out "Guide" by Army Chief.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=121147
Hopefully members new and old will refer to it prior to making an ass of themselves. Personally I would like to see this thread title in Big Red Letters with "Read this FIRST before posting OR ELSE!" ;)
The following part of what you linked to is something I admittedly get annoyed with (in bold for emphasis):
The Value of Opinions.
The Good: One of M4C's strengths is that we acknowledge that not all opinions are created equal. To this end, we have attempted to make the Subject Matter Experts and Industry Professionals in our midst more visible, so you know when you are engaging with a heavy hitter. We also have many, many regular members who are capable of dispensing very sound advice.
The Bad: If you honestly have no first-hand experience with the topic at hand, either learn to say nothing at all, or be very up-front about your limitations. Stay in your lane, and think twice about posting something that you believe to be true only because you read about it on the internet, or saw it in a magazine. You will earn far more respect by asking an intelligent question than by dispensing a foolish answer.
The Ugly: Knowledgeable members are generally quick to throw the BS flag when it is warranted, and post-counts may not be especially useful here, as some of the most competent members on M4C have relatively low post counts. You may well discover that there is more wisdom in the opinion of a 2006 member with 400 posts than in that of a 2010 member with 1,400. Pay attention, and treat it as a learning opportunity should you find your views being actively challenged. (There is an associated lesson here with respect to our stance on post-whoring, but that should probably go without saying.)
In particular when it comes to military subjects. Not really that big of an issue here, although there are a few who like to opine every once in a while, but one funny incident was when a student called me out on LF.net over PKM experience. He has no firearms experience, but tried to discredit my personal experience and comments on the PKM by quoting a person in the firearms industry.
People who act like this rub me the wrong way. I try to breathe through my nose, and count to ten before I reply, but sometimes I fail. I am by all means no expert on all matters military, but I try to limit my comments to what I actually know something about. The norwegian mil is quite small, so if you elevate yourself too much, it's a long drop when you first fall.
Also, everyone and their dog is an expert on military matters these days it seems....wonder why.
It doesn't really happen to me personally that often, but it's irritating anyway.
Does anybody else notice that some people reply to threads not to share knowledge or offer a well-thought-out disagreement, but merely to attack another post as being the product of an uneducated moron while simultaneously proving to the world that the person making the reply must be an undiscovered SME?
Just curious.
This general, societal lack of civility is getting on my nerves. Can't anyone disagree without being an asshole anymore?
As the owner of several forums with approx 20k users, forums can be tough to keep on track if just a few decide to not play nice with others.
Seems a big influx of new users not terribly interested in playing nice with others and thinking their past behavior on other forums will be tolerated here, probably due to massive attention the AR platform is getting in the media I'd guess
Mods here do a solid job but only so much time in the day and if you get just 50 new members in a month, and each of them drops 3-5 posts, and some contain worthless crap that needs moderation, it adds up fast.
As for the regulars you may simply not see eye to eye with the ignore option is your friend. I only have one person on my ignore list personally, but some times there's people you don't agree with, but can respect their position, and then there's those who simply go out of their way to be abrasive and argumentative, and or simply trolling.
Ignore option works well for that, and they tend to go down in flames at some point when mods have had enough of them. :nono:
Heartland Hawk
02-03-13, 14:02
Seems a big influx of new users not terribly interested in playing nice with others and thinking their past behavior on other forums will be tolerated here, probably due to massive attention the AR platform is getting in the media I'd guess
Mods here do a solid job but only so much time in the day and if you get just 50 new members in a month, and each of them drops 3-5 posts, and some contain worthless crap that needs moderation, it adds up fast.
As for the regulars you may simply not see eye to eye with the ignore option is your friend. I only have one person on my ignore list personally, but some times there's people you don't agree with, but can respect their position, and then there's those who simply go out of their way to be abrasive and argumentative, and or simply trolling.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Look at my post count. Then look at my join date. The disparity is there (low post count) because I try to READ AND LEARN way more than I post. Add that to the fact that after reading a thread, I either get my questions answered, or my opinion on a matter has already been covered and see no need to repeat what has been said. With that being said, I have (in the last year) noticed a large influx of brand new members, who are leading other brand new members with erroneous info just so they look like a SME (sort of the cycle that Grant illustrated). It feels like the quality of the signal vs. noise ratio has suffered.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Look at my post count. Then look at my join date. The disparity is there (low post count) because I try to READ AND LEARN way more than I post. Add that to the fact that after reading a thread, I either get my questions answered, or my opinion on a matter has already been covered and see no need to repeat what has been said. With that being said, I have (in the last year) noticed a large influx of brand new members, who are leading other brand new members with erroneous info just so they look like a SME (sort of the cycle that Grant illustrated). It feels like the quality of the signal vs. noise ratio has suffered.
I do not see Grant, the mods, and the vetted regulars allowing too much of what I refer to as "Toxic Forum Syndrome (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65446&highlight=toxic+forum+syndrome)" to creep in here. :cool:
Belmont31R
02-03-13, 14:38
It's a difference in how people debate an argument, and debate happens a lot in GD, which is why it gives the mods such a hard time, and GD topics can be a lot more personal than 'whats the best lube?' type posts.
The difference in how debate happens is you either debate the post or defame the person as a means of an argument. I personally like picking apart what a person says (if I disagree with them), and debating the points they made instead of resorting to all inclusive personal attacks. We have some leftists here, and I like discussing things with them and think they are interesting. I don't like always preaching to the choir or having nothing challenged. Never really got mad at anyone here that I can remember. Maybe once or twice but that was like 10 minutes and then I was fine...lol People take this stuff TOO personally, and thats one reason I don't get into the family BS drama of Facebook anymore. Not that posting on a site like this can't have consequences, too, just that a lot of people can't detach what should be a friendly debate from their personal lives. I 'pissed off' my SIL, who is 19, jobless, and didn't graduate HS by saying 'no one cares about the opinion of someone who can't even graduate HS', and in retrospect it was mean but still true. She was going off on 'the haters' on the Obama re-election night, and needed a lane correction.
The 'regular' GD posters all seem pretty solid, and even though we don't get the traffic some other sites do the information is a lot more condensed and better mannered.
The shooting sports attract more than it's fair share of idiots and assholes. In academic, canoeing, wilderness and cycling groups which I have personal experience with there seems to be five or six percent of the participants are difficult in some way or another. In the shooting sports that number is higher, some places a lot higher, maybe as high as thirty or forty percent. The more difficult the discipline the fewer the assholes for example, you will find more assholes on the seven yard pistol range than on the two hundred yard rifle range. It's a pretty easy thing to get a login on M4C so the asshole exposure is high. Another factor is the anonymity and distance of the internet makes it safe and easy to get away with provocative remarks. I have found myself in the past falling into this pattern and decided to hold myself to a higher standard. My standard is if I won't say it to your face then I won't say it on the forum. I give myself a little wiggle room in calling out liars and pretenders. Another factor is poor behavior on the part of a few is emulated by others which is emulated by even more and you have an accelerating decay of civility which results in a chaotic free for all. I come here to enjoy myself and learn not to engage in pissing matches so I am against the uncivil behavior. I sometimes call people out for it but it seldom gets any traction so I mostly don't.
Good points. I'd add that owning firearms is a hobby (or lifestyle) that bestows a sense of empowerment and superiority to many people. A little empowerment can be a good thing, a sense of superiority - not so much. A percentage of those people have a hard time handling any perceived challenge to that power. In a way, it is a lot like road rage but on a smaller scale.
People also just need to learn some tolerance. Live and let live. If some one disagrees with you not the end of the world.
Pat
That's how we got Hussein in the White House. This country has tollerated too much Bull Shit for TOO LONG!
Magic_Salad0892
02-04-13, 06:46
Yep. This site still is really good. I've had a few more stalkers recently, but by far... that crap is much more the exception that some of the other sites.
Is that a joke?
Is that really a thing that happens on M4C?
Is that a joke?
Is that really a thing that happens on M4C?
I just got this weird mental picture of an orange colored shrine with candles and voodoo dolls of LWRCis and keymod equipped handguards. :D
-Jax
Is that a joke?
Is that really a thing that happens on M4C?
That was hyperbole.... not a real stalker... just some douche following me around in a thread looking to pick a fight. Like RogerinTPA was saying... trolling to be a dick.
brickboy240
02-04-13, 11:03
We TOLERATE too much BS and bad behavior.
That his now we end up with a society full of people with bad or no manners.
Lately, being "tolerant" often means letting people get away with outrageous behavior and rude and crass language. Especially if said person is a minority or a member of some "protected" class. This must stop.
I am all about individual liberty but we if we "tolerate" too much bad behavior...we will not have a society that is worth a damn...sorry.
-brickboy240
I agree. Tollerance is a NASTY word to me.
We have to tollerate perverts and lunatics? :mad:
I agree. Tollerance is a NASTY word to me.
We have to tollerate perverts and lunatics? :mad:
Is this what happens when there are "NO MORE MORALS" in society?
More like "annually."
Usual is: post-Xmas (guns as gifts) + post-SHOT Show.
BIG influx of new members that happens every year, like clockwork. ....
you forgot high school and middle school vacations...
:p
Magic_Salad0892
02-04-13, 19:02
I just got this weird mental picture of an orange colored shrine with candles and voodoo dolls of LWRCis and keymod equipped handguards. :D
-Jax
HAHA. Orange shrine.
militarymoron
02-04-13, 21:15
I agree. Tollerance is a NASTY word to me.
especially when you spell it like that. :p
especially when you spell it like that. :p
:sarcastic: I'm a ham fisted mofo lately.
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