View Full Version : How can i train a new shooter?
How have you guys trained new shooters? What am i doing wrong?
Right after Sandy Hook shootings my sister expressed interest in shooting and owning a handgun for CC. She wanted something small and semi auto. Since i cant rent every type of hand gun i got her a Kahr P9.
A few weeks ago i took her to the range with most of my handguns. I wanted to see what she would be comfortable with and shoot best with. The guns were all 9mm. Glock 19, 17, HK USP, and an older S&W 5946. The G19 is my EDC. She didnt do so good. Lots of misses and no any sort of grouping. Today we went shooting and the same results as before.....except this time o brought my M&P45. Full size M&P with Apex kit and the biggest back strap she would constantly hit the center with all shots touching!
I have had her using the Isosceles stance and then the weaver stance. She's a righty and constantly shoots to the right of the target. Sometimes above, sometimes below and occasionally she strings the shots above the target. Often the shots are nowhere near the target.
Im thinking because she's good with a full size 45 with a thick grip she has a trigger finger problem?!?!?
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Yes... Probably... Pop in a snap cap and have her do the old quarter on top the slide trick for hours a day. It worked for me when I was a kid.
Travelingchild
02-03-13, 19:27
Having the same issue with of all people a 65 plus year old lady who recently got into firearms , glock 9mm, sig 226 40 , beretta 92, ar 15 , benelli m2. plus her fathers 1911.
1. all the handguns operate differently she can't hit shit at 10 yards. but she only shoots about 10 rds max before changing guns.
then she just watches everyone else show her by shooting her guns and her ammo.:rolleyes:
2. Spent several hours & finally told her flat out she needs to pick one handgun atleast 50rds per range session & She needs to shoot her ****ing gun and not watch other people shoot her stuff. Or I'd quit trying to help her and she could pay someone to teach her.
3. with regard to the shotgun some else showed her how to run it, told her i don't know squat about shotguns. One again she watched while other people burned through her ammo. She fired one (1) round and was terrified of it
I would show her the fundamentals and have her dry fire prior to actually shooting. Show her the proper stance, grip, trigger press, and sight alignment, but ultimately the two most important things are trigger pull and sight alignment. If you have any questions on these, you may be better recommending her to a reputable firearms instructor. You dont what her to gain bad habits. As an instructor myself, I hate dealing/ breaking trainees that have bad habits.
Travelingchild
02-03-13, 19:32
4. The ar? she need to sell it or give it to her kids/grandkids.
I actually think she's buying firearms to eventually pass down to her family members. More power to her.
But trying to instruct a stubborn 65 year old woman can get frustrating real fast.
Back to the OP's issue,,Pick what ever gun she shoots best the MP 45 I believe it was. her groups will inspire confidence, while leads to better shooting & a fun range session.
Failure2Stop
02-03-13, 19:44
There is a reason that there are folks that do this for a living. Highly recommend that you direct her toward a professional.
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There is a reason that there are folks that do this for a living. Highly recommend that you direct her toward a professional.
For sure. Just remember all those that claim to be professional are not. I'm sure the M4C crowd can come up with someone GTG in your area if interested.
There is a reason that there are folks that do this for a living. Highly recommend that you direct her toward a professional.
In the meantime get a full sized .22 handgun like the Ruger 22/45 (my personal favorite).
No offense to the OP but a Kahr would be one of the last guns to give a beginner. DA trigger is harder to shoot accurately, smaller and lighter gun kicks harder, shorter barrel means more noise and muzzle blast.
Trying to start a beginner with a true CCW gun is a recipe for disaster. I've dealt with the same problem myself and after I let them shoot a small 9mm they decide they need some practice with a .22 and full size guns before getting such a hard to shoot gun.
Salsantini
02-03-13, 20:27
Right handed shooters shooting right can mean too much trigger finger. Try moving the pad of the trigger finger a little to the right. There are alot of things she could be doing wrong. inproper grip, poor sight alignment, poor trigger control, bad stance, etc. Like Failure2stop said. Find someone who knows what to look for.
There is a reason that there are folks that do this for a living. Highly recommend that you direct her toward a professional.
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I've learned that is really true. If the shooter just has a knack and picks it up fast and dedicates to study it can go well. But more often I can show them fundamentals but 40 years of pistol shooting still doesn't equip me anyway to figure out how to get in their head and behind their eyes to understand what they are doing wrong once I've used up all my instruction.
My oldest son picked it up fast, studied the subject intensely outside of range work and is just a superb shot - fast or slow. My younger hit a very low plateau and I could not budge it. Frank Proctor was able to transform his shooting to very decent in two days.
And new shooters often don't wanna hear it, my friend and new shooter yesterday case in point - but 1000 rds of .22lr would do wonders to ingrain trigger fundamentals which is the first way they all fall down.
Im gonna give it one more shot but only because of her work schedule. Recent college grad with 2 full time jobs. If i dont see an improvement or cant figure out whats wrong then I'll start looking for a pro.
Anyone know a professional instructor in the Philla Pa area?
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Keep in mind that men and women think and learn differently. (I'm assuming you're male) It's not hard to explain something in a way that makes sense to you but she might be hearing something different. Doesn't have to be between people of different genders either. I have many times neglected to mention something that was fundamental to me but someone else wouldn't know.
I would suggest maybe having her watch some instructional videos on youtube geared towards new shooters (ruger has some good ones) and having her try a .22. Even if she does good, professional instruction from a reputable school is a great idea.
With a 22LR and a healthy dose of dry fire start with trigger control and sight alignment. The stance doesn't need to be perfect just reasonably close with the person not leaning backward.
No really secret techniques, I simply copied the methods that I saw professional trainers use.
Psalms144.1
02-04-13, 07:21
Arik - good on you for volunteering to try to develop a new shooter. Having said that, if you can't diagnose shooter problems without the help of an internet forum, you probably shouldn't be training a newby. In the strongest possible terms, I'd urge you to find a competent trainer and training venue - any number of decent NRA courses come to mind immediately.
If you insist on continuing, you need to get a proper training pistol first. By that I mean a quality .22LR of some sort. Using any centerfire as an initial training pistol is likely to inflict all sorts of long-term problems like a significant anticipation training scar (commonly referred to as a flinch). Dry fire and LIMITED live fire are the keys to teaching fundamentals properly. When you're live firing, you initially want it to be positive reinforcement of dry fire training, so keep sessions short, ranges short, and try to avoid crowded, noisy indoor ranges. Make sure your sister has GOOD hearing protection, the blast from other shooters is another surefire way to induce flinching.
Best of luck to you and your sister.
Regards,
Kevin
The women I know that were introduced to shooting....... seemed to favor a heavy pistol with small caliber. Larger caliber seemed to make them uncomfortable. Light firearms felt "uncontrollable" to them, at least that is what they told me as their "reasons".
All of them, however, complained about the pistol they liked the best being "too heavy."
I think it is a "no right answer" situation until she develops her own opinions.
Salsantini
02-04-13, 21:25
Im gonna give it one more shot but only because of her work schedule. Recent college grad with 2 full time jobs. If i dont see an improvement or cant figure out whats wrong then I'll start looking for a pro.
Anyone know a professional instructor in the Philla Pa area?
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Where in the Phila. Area? Below is a chart that might help you.
http://imageshack.us/a/img191/8133/correctionchartlogosmal.jpg
Do you want her to be a good shot or be able to defend herself..or both. To me they are separate things.
Marksmanship can easily be accomplish without professional training. I learned how to shoot handguns from Bullseye shooters.
Lots of one handed dry fire in my home aiming at a light switch cover and trying to break the trigger without moving the sights. This helped with isolating hand muscles.
Then hundreds of rounds, one handed, first at 50' and then 25 yards trying to constantly tighten group until I could get 90% inside the 9 ring. Then more practice.
If it were my sister I would have her master trigger control and sight alignment first.
Then have her go to a legit self defense class with legit instructors that also has a legal segment preferably with a criminal defense lawyer rather than a police officer.
DiabhailGadhar
02-04-13, 22:19
Do you want her to be a good shot or be able to defend herself..or both. To me they are separate things.
Marksmanship can easily be accomplish without professional training. I learned how to shoot handguns from Bullseye shooters.
Lots of one handed dry fire in my home aiming at a light switch cover and trying to break the trigger without moving the sights. This helped with isolating hand muscles.
Then hundreds of rounds, one handed, first at 50' and then 25 yards trying to constantly tighten group until I could get 90% inside the 9 ring. Then more practice.
If it were my sister I would have her master trigger control and sight alignment first.
Then have her go to a legit self defense class with legit instructors that also has a legal segment preferably with a criminal defense lawyer rather than a police officer.
?huh?
I disagree with just about the bulk of that.
1. You can't miss enough to accurately defend yourself, I would think they ALWAYS go hand and hand.
2. You said accuracy can be accomplished without professional training, then immediately admit to having done so.
3. One handed...I would work on that after consistency then accuracy had been confidently achieved, in a reliable grip/stance. BOTH HANDS.
4. I would keep a new shooter, especially one new, inside of a realistic range for self defense..say 10 yards.
5. If i didn't have the upmost respect for my own ability to teach I would def recommend a professional from the gate. Especially if the "student's" first thing they are concerned about was life and death situations doubly so if it was my family...
Maybe I read your post wrong and if I did I apologize, but that seems a bit out of whack IMHO.
?huh?
I disagree with just about the bulk of that.
1. You can't miss enough to accurately defend yourself, I would think they ALWAYS go hand and hand.
2. You said accuracy can be accomplished without professional training, then immediately admit to having done so.
3. One handed...I would work on that after consistency then accuracy had been confidently achieved, in a reliable grip/stance. BOTH HANDS.
4. I would keep a new shooter, especially one new, inside of a realistic range for self defense..say 10 yards.
5. If i didn't have the upmost respect for my own ability to teach I would def recommend a professional from the gate. Especially if the "student's" first thing they are concerned about was life and death situations doubly so if it was my family...
Maybe I read your post wrong and if I did I apologize, but that seems a bit out of whack IMHO.
I have seen a lot of people that have taken several self defense and pistol courses and cant shoot accurately. At least what I consider accurate.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a few fellow Bullseye shooters at my club qualify as professional firearms instructors and I didn't pay anyone. BTW, these guys helped me out because I was learning to shoot Bullseye.
I qualified Expert on my initial NRA qualifier and Master the next year doing what I did above.
I did get and recommend professional training for self defense so I could get better at drawing from concealment, proper stance and grip, reloading, clearing malfunctions, and making fast hits with practical accuracy.
Again, I think understanding the local laws is mandatory before anyone considering CCW.
These are my personal views based on my experiences.
Failure2Stop
02-05-13, 00:28
Where in the Phila. Area? Below is a chart that might help you.
http://imageshack.us/a/img191/8133/correctionchartlogosmal.jpg
Frankly, that chart is useless unless you are doing one-handed bullseye.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
The women I know that were introduced to shooting....... seemed to favor a heavy pistol with small caliber. Larger caliber seemed to make them uncomfortable. Light firearms felt "uncontrollable" to them, at least that is what they told me as their "reasons".
All of them, however, complained about the pistol they liked the best being "too heavy."
I think it is a "no right answer" situation until she develops her own opinions.
Less recoil with smaller rounds and larger pistols.
Obvious answer is to put a muzzle brake on the end of a lighter pistol thus getting the best of both worlds. I've never seen a brake on anything smaller than .357 magnum revolver though.
I have nothing but issues trying to teach family and I've coached people in archery, handguns, hockey and skiing. My kids will all get professional training when they are old enough to get into a combat shooting class. My wife is taking a Redback One class this spring.
Send her to a professional.
Where in the Phila. Area? Below is a chart that might help you.
http://imageshack.us/a/img191/8133/correctionchartlogosmal.jpg
Bucks Co/far NE.
I had her do a bunch of dry firing on Sunday, during the super bowl. I think i found the problem or at least one of... She slaps the trigger.
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Bucks Co/far NE.
I had her do a bunch of dry firing on Sunday, during the super bowl. I think i found the problem or at least one of... She slaps the trigger.
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If i use the chart she is somewhere between heeling and tightening, to the right of the center
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Failure2Stop
02-05-13, 07:16
If i use the chart she is somewhere between heeling and tightening, to the right of the center
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Seriously, the chart is irrelevant to a modern grip.
Failure2Stop
02-05-13, 07:18
Bucks Co/far NE.
I had her do a bunch of dry firing on Sunday, during the super bowl. I think i found the problem or at least one of... She slaps the trigger.
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It generally isn't an issue with slapping the trigger, but with anticipating the shot and shoving the gun. If you can slap the trigger hard enough to overcome a modern two-handed grip, you have more issues than just slapping the trigger.
Just about everything is related to shot anticipation, ball and dummy is the best way to work through it, but it's boring as hell.
Seriously, the chart is irrelevant to a modern grip.
Kinda serious lol. Honestly the first time i saw that chart was right before i posted this topic, as i was doing research.
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DiabhailGadhar
02-05-13, 08:45
Go get Magpul dynamics art of the tactical handgun and have your sister watch it. The first few minutes Travis Haley does an excellent job of explaining some of the physics of the recoil. I'm atleast some what of an experienced shooter and I took alot away from that. Especially the whys of a two handed grip and the importance of its correctness.
Oh +1 on the anticipation of the shot. I've been a Marine Corps rifle and pistol coach for many years now and usually the two biggest areas that cause issue, atleast Til you go past 300 yds, is shot anticipation and trigger control. If you don't have snap caps, which are a worth while investment, then just hand her mags with an unknown number of rounds and see what she does on the last one, provided she doesn't notice the slide first anyway...:-) it's a little bit easier to pull over on someone with a M16 but you get the idea.
I have noticed a couple things with many new pistol shooters as well as experienced shooters who still suck after years of shooting:
They can't keep their eyes open while firing a shot (mostly new shooters), or they can't keep a hard focus on the front sight while they break the trigger and don't follow through (experienced shooters who still suck) They tend too look at the target right as they pull the trigger.
Slapping the trigger does affect accuracy with a 2 handed grip, just far less so IMHO. That is why I often recommend to friends trying to improve their accuracy that they practice with one hand as it will spotlight issues that are not as apparent with a "modern" grip technique. If you can make good shots with one hand you can EASILY do it with two.
Master the fundamentals and speed will come much easier.
She is your sister, so there is something to be said for getting her some proper training... but if her situation is anything like in my family I don't find that is really a viable option for most people, they just aren't going to be that serious right out of the box at the first sign of "interest" in shooting.
I would think that taking her shooting a few more times and build familiarity and comfort is the best strategy for now.
I'd suggest professional training. For now, dry fire to get trigger control down. Mix rounds/ snap caps to help flinch, and have her use a full sized gun so she can see progress and build confidence. Also teach her a proper grip if you havnt.
I've taught a few people to shoot, sometimes you need to start at 5 yards to build groups and confidence and work out the major issues before moving back.
Also lets face it,most people don't care about shooting 4" groups at 25yds. They want to be able to be ccw effective, which would be about 4" at 7-10 yds on a range. They won't shoot regularly and most people don't care to get as good as they should. As a teacher you need to be able to create that desire, at least to a certain degree.
This is another area that professionals are usually good at.
I'm no pro, just sharing thoughts and experience.
She is your sister, so there is something to be said for getting her some proper training... but if her situation is anything like in my family I don't find that is really a viable option for most people, they just aren't going to be that serious right out of the box at the first sign of "interest" in shooting.
I would think that taking her shooting a few more times and build familiarity and comfort is the best strategy for now.
For her to get serious professional training like the kind taught in classes that are several days long is not a viable option atm. She works 2 jobs, one after the other. Leaves home at 8am and back by 10pm, 6 days a week. Sunday is her only day off. She likes it and wants to get better but right now it has to be 1 on 1 at a range for an hour or two on Sundays.
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For her to get serious professional training like the kind taught in classes that are several days long is not a viable option atm. She works 2 jobs, one after the other. Leaves home at 8am and back by 10pm, 6 days a week. Sunday is her only day off. She likes it and wants to get better but right now it has to be 1 on 1 at a range for an hour or two on Sundays.
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Do you belong to a gun club? Many offer basic pistol instruction from NRA instructors to members.
Do you have a timer? I had my buddy practice making two shot from the low ready in under 2 seconds trying to keep all shots in the down 0 of an IDPA target. 7 and 10 yards. A simple drill that really helped him.
This is a great book if she would read it (despite the dope on the front cover)
http://www.amazon.com/Surgical-Speed-Shooting-High-Speed-Marksmanship/dp/1581601433
Have her watch these beginner videos by Surf. There are about 6 just on grip and trigger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBWUXylGSiE&list=UUp8T00fn9XilEvvLa_EGO8Q&index=22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdDFA9EtFc4
a video camera and dummy rounds also works wonders. How about blinking? Is she closing her eyes.
NRA First Steps isn't a time consuming course if scheduling is her problem. She could get helpful instruction vs becoming frustrated with continued range instruction and the results.
DiabhailGadhar
02-05-13, 19:09
OP,
there has been alot of great techniques and knowledge being thrown at you here and it wouldn't hurt to heed almost all of it. I would def add the number one thing that would keep them engaged is A. continually make it fun and B. continue to make it challenging. You want them to want to do better and the reward for the work should be increased proficiency. I use to challenge my Marines at the range for a certain number of hits per string of fire, if they reached the mark I ate dirt (push ups) if they didnt they got to surrender soda's from their bag nasty (lunch). may not be your solution but it worked for me.
Im gonna give it one more shot but only because of her work schedule. Recent college grad with 2 full time jobs. If i dont see an improvement or cant figure out whats wrong then I'll start looking for a pro.
Anyone know a professional instructor in the Philla Pa area?
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You have a VSM instructor in your State (Joe R. on here).
C4
How have you guys trained new shooters? What am i doing wrong?
Right after Sandy Hook shootings my sister expressed interest in shooting and owning a handgun for CC. She wanted something small and semi auto. Since i cant rent every type of hand gun i got her a Kahr P9.
A few weeks ago i took her to the range with most of my handguns. I wanted to see what she would be comfortable with and shoot best with. The guns were all 9mm. Glock 19, 17, HK USP, and an older S&W 5946. The G19 is my EDC. She didnt do so good. Lots of misses and no any sort of grouping. Today we went shooting and the same results as before.....except this time o brought my M&P45. Full size M&P with Apex kit and the biggest back strap she would constantly hit the center with all shots touching!
I have had her using the Isosceles stance and then the weaver stance. She's a righty and constantly shoots to the right of the target. Sometimes above, sometimes below and occasionally she strings the shots above the target. Often the shots are nowhere near the target.
Im thinking because she's good with a full size 45 with a thick grip she has a trigger finger problem?!?!?
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I mean no offense but I'm with f2s 100%. Just based on your post, I can see that you don't have the necessary skills to train her.
There are lots of diagnostic and corrective methods. But it takes a trained eye to figure what is needed and what is appropriate given the circumstances. Just throwing all of your (choppy) knowledge at once is not the answer. Even corrective methods need to be balanced since correcting too many things at once can become overwhelming.
I could write a more complete set of reasons why a professional instructor would do her a lot of good but I already have in the past and you can search my post history if you are so inclined. There is a lot a pro does that you can not see. Don't put her in a position of disadvantage by creating bad habits. Even a local instructor with a decent reputation for a couple of hours will be beneficial.
Good luck.
As was said by several of the previous post, if she is having trouble with consistancy/accuracy, I would also reccommend using a decent 22lr. pistol. It will help her to develop basic fundamentals and lets her see immediate results of her actions. Initially the shooter needs "positive reinforcement" and not develop fear of the gun. Larger guns with a lot of recoil do not accomplish this with a new shooter, just the opposite. IMHO
It generally isn't an issue with slapping the trigger, but with anticipating the shot and shoving the gun. If you can slap the trigger hard enough to overcome a modern two-handed grip, you have more issues than just slapping the trigger.
Just about everything is related to shot anticipation, ball and dummy is the best way to work through it, but it's boring as hell.
What I am about to write doesn't really apply to the OP. it is an important point for more experienced shooters an follows what f2s wrote.
F2s is right. Once the proper two handed grip is developed an consistent grip pressure maintained throughout the sequence of shots, it is very hard for bad trigger control to show through. We know that when shooting a rifle the importance of trigger control diminishes greatly (combat shooting, not precision) because we have 4 points of contact. In the same line of thought, a correct two hand grip allows for more leniency than a less optimal two hand grip (not going into detail about grip mechanics here).
This is actually the reason that training one hand only shooting should be MANDATORY for experienced pistol shooters! At least 25% of your shooting and preferably 50% should be one hand shooting/handling//manipulations/etc...
I have seen countless dudes get used to shooting two handed and either due to proper grip mechanics and/or superior strength shoot extremely well that way. The problem is when they have to shoot one hand only, it's a shit show because they have not trained the proper trigger control. They have, in essence, been cheating trigger control because their grip allowed them to.
You also see this with shooters who are experienced with one pistol and switch to a different pistol. They think they shoot great until they have to shoot one handed. Now the effect of the different trigger becomes apparent.
Do not avoid one hand only shooting. It is not only an issue of trigger control but a one hand grip recoils differently due to the lacking grip coverage on one side. This is why shooters who do not train one hand only tend to shoot left when holding in the right hand and vice versa.
I've seen shooters miss by several inches (or more) at seven yards one hand when they were making great hits with two hands. As for non le/mil, think of scenarios in which you are directing a loved or are talking on the phone while protecting your home, etc... It is not a skill that is only necessary in case of injury.
Bottom line, I know it isn't as fun but allocate at least 25% of your shooting to one hand only training
I apologize for the disorganized write-up. I'm a bit sleep deprived at the moment.
As was said by several of the previous post, if she is having trouble with consistancy/accuracy, I would also reccommend using a decent 22lr. pistol. It will help her to develop basic fundamentals and lets her see immediate results of her actions. Initially the shooter needs "positive reinforcement" and not develop fear of the gun. Larger guns with a lot of recoil do not accomplish this with a new shooter, just the opposite. IMHO
This is a contentious issue with some. I absolutely disagree. The .22 has a place in the training of new shooters but it is rarely necessary. I have argued and firmly believe based on my experience that the only time a new shooter requires a .22 to begin is when he/she is significantly weak, shows strong psychological distress to the sound and feel of the gun firing, or some disability.
In all other cases, "instructors" go to the .22 due to their lack of skill as instructors. Most folks who preach starting all shooters on .22 fall in this category. So if you need the shooter to use a .22 to compensate for your lack of ability as an instructor, that is better than biting off more then you can chew. However, it may be time for some instructor development.
To me a .22 is dry fire practice with feedback. Using it for anything else (including multiple shot drills) creates scars. Not reinforcing it with full caliber live fire creates scars (just as dry fire alone does). The shooter isn't experiencing actual follow through: the trigger can be manipulated faster than full caliber, the sights do not really have to be tracked (they barely move), and most importantly, grip pressure and stance aren't tested. I'm going to do a write-up at some point on training with a .22 with a list of practical drills which minimize range scar. But even with the proper selection of drills, everything must be reinforced with full caliber live fire. Gotta get on that write-up.
As for the complaint that full calibers cause flinch, a good instructor can diagnose and correct that very efficiently. I have rarely seen this to be an issue and when it is, that person is in the category of folks who have a very adverse psychological reaction to that small explosion in their hand. Here I will use a .22 (again, a very rare event).
That said, a lot depends on the shooter's goals/desires. If a .22 is what they are looking for, then by all means, that is what they should shoot. Shooting should be fun for the new shooter!
To me a .22 is dry fire practice with feedback.
Agreed. Used as such. A lot more fun than dry fire.
What I am about to write doesn't really apply to the OP. it is an important point for more experienced shooters an follows what f2s wrote.
F2s is right. Once the proper two handed grip is developed an consistent grip pressure maintained throughout the sequence of shots, it is very hard for bad trigger control to show through. We know that when shooting a rifle the importance of trigger control diminishes greatly (combat shooting, not precision) because we have 4 points of contact. In the same line of thought, a correct two hand grip allows for more leniency than a less optimal two hand grip (not going into detail about grip mechanics here).
This is actually the reason that training one hand only shooting should be MANDATORY for experienced pistol shooters! At least 25% of your shooting and preferably 50% should be one hand shooting/handling//manipulations/etc...
I have seen countless dudes get used to shooting two handed and either due to proper grip mechanics and/or superior strength shoot extremely well that way. The problem is when they have to shoot one hand only, it's a shit show because they have not trained the proper trigger control. They have, in essence, been cheating trigger control because their grip allowed them to.
You also see this with shooters who are experienced with one pistol and switch to a different pistol. They think they shoot great until they have to shoot one handed. Now the effect of the different trigger becomes apparent.
Do not avoid one hand only shooting. It is not only an issue of trigger control but a one hand grip recoils differently due to the lacking grip coverage on one side. This is why shooters who do not train one hand only tend to shoot left when holding in the right hand and vice versa.
I've seen shooters miss by several inches (or more) at seven yards one hand when they were making great hits with two hands. As for non le/mil, think of scenarios in which you are directing a loved or are talking on the phone while protecting your home, etc... It is not a skill that is only necessary in case of injury.
Bottom line, I know it isn't as fun but allocate at least 25% of your shooting to one hand only training
I apologize for the disorganized write-up. I'm a bit sleep deprived at the moment.
Dis-organized or not; that's a killer post. Thanks much. I wish I understood the role of and carry over of the one handed part better many years ago.
Clarifying question for F2S and sboza:
The chief problem I observe, manifests as a right handed shooter striking a foot low and left at 10 yards - with 90% of their shots.
"Shoving" into the shot accounts for the left miss as well as the low?
Thanks
This is a contentious issue with some. I absolutely disagree. The .22 has a place in the training of new shooters but it is rarely necessary. I have argued and firmly believe based on my experience that the only time a new shooter requires a .22 to begin is when he/she is significantly weak, shows strong psychological distress to the sound and feel of the gun firing, or some disability.
In all other cases, "instructors" go to the .22 due to their lack of skill as instructors. Most folks who preach starting all shooters on .22 fall in this category. So if you need the shooter to use a .22 to compensate for your lack of ability as an instructor, that is better than biting off more then you can chew. However, it may be time for some instructor development.
To me a .22 is dry fire practice with feedback. Using it for anything else (including multiple shot drills) creates scars. Not reinforcing it with full caliber live fire creates scars (just as dry fire alone does). The shooter isn't experiencing actual follow through: the trigger can be manipulated faster than full caliber, the sights do not really have to be tracked (they barely move), and most importantly, grip pressure and stance aren't tested. I'm going to do a write-up at some point on training with a .22 with a list of practical drills which minimize range scar. But even with the proper selection of drills, everything must be reinforced with full caliber live fire. Gotta get on that write-up.
As for the complaint that full calibers cause flinch, a good instructor can diagnose and correct that very efficiently. I have rarely seen this to be an issue and when it is, that person is in the category of folks who have a very adverse psychological reaction to that small explosion in their hand. Here I will use a .22 (again, a very rare event).
That said, a lot depends on the shooter's goals/desires. If a .22 is what they are looking for, then by all means, that is what they should shoot. Shooting should be fun for the new shooter!
I dunno, there's much I agree with here, and some I don't. I like to take a building block approach when teaching, and therefore often start on the range with a .22 because it has no recoil. (however, before we get to the range there will be dry fire drills, including drills with a laser). I like to ingrain the sight alignment and trigger control first for a few rounds before moving to centerfire pistol.
This way the new shooter gets the chance to develop confidence that he/she can align the sights and work the trigger a slow speed with out the distraction of loud noise and recoil.
The low speed part is important - no multi shot strings. Don't want them getting used to cheating with a poor grip.
Once they know they are capable of making hits with a .22, then move on to the service calibers - more focus on grip and not anticipating the shot, recoil management, etc.
I totally agree about being able to diagnose and correct flinching, anticipation etc and recoil management - its not the easiest stuff to teach and most don't do it well. But it can be beneficial to take things one step at a time and start with a .22, at least for a little bit.
Beyond the pure learning and diagnosis, if the new shooter isn't having some fun, its an uphill battle. Especially for folks that are just not that interested. Better to give them the satisfaction that they are capable of making an accurate shot with no time pressure using a .22.
More and more though, I find myself teaching trigger control and sight alignment by doing some of the ball and dummy drills with a laser. That gets the point across really fast. Anyway, a couple mags worth of .22 is a worthy confidence boost and motivator and helps keep the new shooter with getting overwhelmed trying to learn too many skills at once.
Failure2Stop
02-06-13, 21:09
Clarifying question for F2S and sboza:
The chief problem I observe, manifests as a right handed shooter striking a foot low and left at 10 yards - with 90% of their shots.
"Shoving" into the shot accounts for the left miss as well as the low?
Thanks
Yup, it's just a different kind of shove.
Ball and dummy, or one of the variations of the drill is the way to illustrate the issue to the shooter and consciously work it out.
Working on trigger control is a way to distract the shooter from anticipating the shot with a solid fundamental skill, so it's good, but it isn't the actual issue at play.
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There is a reason that there are folks that do this for a living. Highly recommend that you direct her toward a professional.
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Learning "how" a person learns is actually more important than being an expert in the skill being taught.
Yup, it's just a different kind of shove.
Ball and dummy, or one of the variations of the drill is the way to illustrate the issue to the shooter and consciously work it out.
Working on trigger control is a way to distract the shooter from anticipating the shot with a solid fundamental skill, so it's good, but it isn't the actual issue at play.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I have a friend that I have been working with for a while and has this anticipation "shove" forward that causes rounds to shoot low at 6 O'clock. This is of course different than the classic low left flinch (from a right hand shooter).
While I understand the flinch (and how/why it happens), this "shove" is a bit different and harder to fix IMHO.
Like you said, I have been using a lot of Ball and Dummy and a vertical line target. I ask the shooter to keep rounds below a black line, but in a grey box. They can go right and left as much as they like in the box, but have to keep rounds in a small (short) rectangular box.
Nice to see others have witnessed this problem. I believe that this problem is usually written off as someone looking over their sights (which can happen, but is easily identified with one specific drill).
C4
I have a friend that I have been working with for a while and has this anticipation "shove" forward that causes rounds to shoot low at 6 O'clock. This is of course different than the classic low left flinch (from a right hand shooter).
While I understand the flinch (and how/why it happens), this "shove" is a bit different and harder to fix IMHO.
Like you said, I have been using a lot of Ball and Dummy and a vertical line target. I ask the shooter to keep rounds below a black line, but in a grey box. They can go right and left as much as they like in the box, but have to keep rounds in a small (short) rectangular box.
Nice to see others have witnessed this problem. I believe that this problem is usually written off as someone looking over their sights (which can happen, but is easily identified with one specific drill).
C4
I do that myself actually. Or rather, I did. I self fixed it by dry firing a few times after every mag. Even though I knew it was a dry fire, my muscle memory kept shoving forward, which is obvious when there's no recoil lol. So I reduced my mag to like 3 rds and followed up with 6 dry fires. Repeat ad nauseum. I think it's really interesting though that consciously I knew there was no recoil, but subconsciously/muscle memory still anticipated recoil. I didn't need to be surprised to see the problem and fix it.
After I stopped shoving forward during dry fire tests, I had someone load in snap caps randomly into 2 of my mags, and did that for a while, like many here suggest. I think I've kicked the problem, I don't shoot low consistently anymore. Then again, I have an older m&p 9 fs with stock barrel...
sbozo,
Then perhaps we "agree to disagree" as the politically correct like to say. I was under the impression that the "OP" was referencing a female "new shooter" who apparently has no concept of what "trigger control" or "sight alignment" is, maybe I misread it.
I typically would not resort to a "minimum caliber" weapon unless the shooter obviously cannot perform and does not have enough experience with weapons to understand what is needed to develop consistent accuracy, which appears to be the case here.
To say:
" In all other cases, "instructors" go to the .22 due to their lack of skill as instructors. Most folks who preach starting all shooters on .22 fall in this category. So if you need the shooter to use a .22 to compensate for your lack of ability as an instructor, that is better than biting off more then you can chew. However, it may be time for some instructor development. "
is both dismissive and condescending so I will simply say we "agree to disagree" , but after instructing police and civilians for the past 20+ years, the .22 pistols are indeed a valid tool to help "NEW" students in certain situations. I would always prefer to actually see what the student is doing rather than relying on someones verbal articulation of their actions, in a perfect world. Good Luck.
blueorison
02-12-13, 18:06
How to train a new shooter:
Have a lot of patience and more importantly, experience.
Remember what you are imparting to them is the first they know about guns, and they will hold onto it for a long, long time.
Don't rehash crap you have heard. Teach from empirical and experiential learning.
Be adaptive to what they know and what they need supplemented, don't read from a textbook.
Be a good teacher first, then a good shooter.
I teach a lot of shooters, from bank owners to mall ninjas. Actually, I stopped teaching mall ninjas because the one mall ninja friend I finally taught out of his mall ninja ways agitated me to no end about the pissing matches he'd start.
So, avoid mall ninjas, or what I affectionately call "Tactifags".
Dont go to the range the first day.
First day should be in house with empty guns. Especially with females with no experience, but I treat everyone the same.
First day is all safety and fundamentals. None of which requires ammo.
First time they even touch a gun they should be learning how to unload it. That's not well learned in a noises environment. Repetition of unloading is also wasted time on a paid lane or a paid outdoor range.
Then grip, sights and trigger press all better learned in a comfortable indoor in house not in public setting. You can spend hours teaching those.
Agreed. Used as such. A lot more fun than dry fire.
I always teach with dry fire first. I don't find that lighter calibers than 9mm are advantageous to beginners.
I usually start by racking the slide for the person learning. This gives them an idea of what's lacking in grip and stance.
I feel people get more serious than giddy about learning how to shoot, but maybe that's the environment I set. There's certainly smiles, but I don't usually see bubbles and unicorns so I don't place too much emphasis on fun. Well, correction the people I see at the range that are all bubbly about stuff shoot like garbage typically. I always caution people who are learning against just goin to a range and blasting and having fun, because then you end up like one of those types.
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