View Full Version : A concealed Carry question
RiddlerLS1
02-03-13, 19:37
So I'm going to be traveling through Oklahoma and Texas with my wife's mother and step father this week. I will not be driving but both states are must inform officer states. So my question is, if we get pulled over for any reason, am I required to inform the officer I am carrying even if I am not in verbal contact with the officer? Since I will just be a passenger, officers do not always initiate contact or ask for I.d.'s so what is the protocol there?
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RagweedZulu
02-03-13, 20:55
As a state trooper, I'd advise to do it, just to be safe. Nothing to worry about in those states.
Shocked Texas is "must inform". You sure?
http://www.handgunlaw.us/
So I'm going to be traveling through Oklahoma and Texas with my wife's mother and step father this week. I will not be driving but both states are must inform officer states.
Food for thought... "Traveling through" implies you're not from there, and likely don't hold TX or OK permits. The disclosure requirements may not apply apply to you.
Bad advice. That is like saying its perfectly legal to have pot on you because you are a Washington or Colorado resident...
You have to follow the laws in the state you are in, not where your permit is from.
Food for thought... "Traveling through" implies you're not from there, and likely don't hold TX or OK permits. The disclosure requirements may not apply apply to you.
RagweedZulu
02-03-13, 23:39
Bad advice. That is like saying its perfectly legal to have pot on you because you are a Washington or Colorado resident...
You have to follow the laws in the state you are in, not where your permit is from.
Exactly. Err on the side of caution. I seriously doubt anybody in those states will bother you about it. If you're legal you're legal.
Bad advice. That is like saying its perfectly legal to have pot on you because you are a Washington or Colorado resident...
You have to follow the laws in the state you are in, not where your permit is from.
It's nothing like that, and no, you may not have to. It depends on the language of the statute. Look for language such as this... "The bearer of a permit licensed under this statute/provision/section shall...". Such language in the statute of state X obligates bearers of permits from state X, but may not others.
It's all in the statutory construction.
And it's not advice, just a point for contemplation.
Psalms144.1
02-04-13, 07:31
My first question would be - do TX and OK have reciprocity with your state for concealed carry? If yes, then I'd follow the state law in the state you find yourself in, WRT notification.
Having said that, if you're a back seat passenger, you won't technically be making contact with the officer unless and until they initiate contact with you, for some reason. So, if you keep your mouth shut and don't act suspicious, chances are the question will never come up.
Regards,
Kevin
scoutchris
02-04-13, 08:14
As a Texasresident with a uUtah chl, you do not have to inform unless you are both a Texas chl holder AND carrying. This is Texas, we can carry locked and loaded in a vehicle WITHOUT a CHL, thanks to the castle law... No one really cares if your carrying, it's almost expected. If you're not driving and you just shout at the the officer that you're carrying I'd probably look at you like you're an idiot.
It's nothing like that, and no, you may not have to. It depends on the language of the statute. Look for language such as this... "The bearer of a permit licensed under this statute/provision/section shall...". Such language in the statute of state X obligates bearers of permits from state X, but may not others.
It's all in the statutory construction.
And it's not advice, just a point for contemplation.
Well then from "statutory construction" let me clarify the issue. Carrying under reciprocity means that you are bound to the laws of the state you are currently in, NOT where your license is from. For example a TX permit holder would be bound by oklahoma SDA. Which means, they must follow the rules of OK not TX. In TX 30.06 is what bars a person from entering a private business with a CHL, in OK any no gun sign works. In OK a person with an SDA card may open carry, in Texas they may not. Etc Etc. If OK is a must inform state ( and it is ) any person traveling under reciprocity must follow the rule.
So I'm going to be traveling through Oklahoma and Texas with my wife's mother and step father this week. I will not be driving but both states are must inform officer states. So my question is, if we get pulled over for any reason, am I required to inform the officer I am carrying even if I am not in verbal contact with the officer? Since I will just be a passenger, officers do not always initiate contact or ask for I.d.'s so what is the protocol there?
If you are driving:
Hand your CHL & DL to the officer at the same time. He will look at them both and ask you if you are carrying and/or where your carry is located. You answer directly, "right hip" or "center console" or whatever your answer is. S/he will say "Ok, just keep it there and we're good", and go about the stop.
Attitude is everything. I cannot stress that enough. You WILL be polite. You WILL be respectful. And you'll be on your way in a few minutes.
As a passenger you are not required to offer any words or license or anything else. You just sit there and be quiet & polite unless you are asked a question. Do not enter yourself into the conversation what so ever. It is unnecessary.
If you are driving:
Hand your CHL & DL to the officer at the same time. He will look at them both and ask you if you are carrying and/or where your carry is located. You answer directly, "right hip" or "center console" or whatever your answer is. S/he will say "Ok, just keep it there and we're good", and go about the stop.
Attitude is everything. I cannot stress that enough. You WILL be polite. You WILL be respectful. And you'll be on your way in a few minutes.
As a passenger you are not required to offer any words or license or anything else. You just sit there and be quiet & polite unless you are asked a question. Do not enter yourself into the conversation what so ever. It is unnecessary.
I would have to agree with this. Interjecting yourself into the situation/conversation is unnecessary unless the officer brings you into it.
As a driver I was recently stopped by a State Tropper in another state. As soon as he come to my vehicle he asked for my license and registration. I had my weapon in my center console along with my registration. I informed the trooper that I had a CCL and that my weapon was in my center console along with my registration. I then asked his permission to open it an retrieve my registration. He sad sure and thanked me for the information. 5 minutes later I was on my way with a warning ticket.
It's way easier to just not get pulled over.
"Must inform" laws make no sense.
A criminal intent on doing harm to the officer will just not inform, and shoot him.
A law abiding person who is willing to inform is not a threat.
They make as much sense as gun-free zones where only criminals will violate them.
It's way easier to just not get pulled over.
True.
But you may get pulled over for an item you're not aware of, such as an out light vs a moving violation. In our case one night traveling out to a friend's ranch, a headlight was out on the truck. A Trooper lit us up through one of the little towns about an hour out from our destination about 11pm. We had been driving the prior 2hrs after a pit stop & food at Whataburger without incident.
hotrodder636
02-04-13, 10:01
http://www.handgunlaw.us/
That link might be a helpful tool, but I would validate the info listed. I say tis because the info about reciprocity agreements for the state of Tennessee doesn't match what the TN.gov lists. Just be cautious.
"Must inform" laws make no sense.
A criminal intent on doing harm to the officer will just not inform, and shoot him.
A law abiding person who is willing to inform is not a threat.
They make as much sense as gun-free zones where only criminals will violate them.
We view informing an LEO on a stop as courtesy and respect. S/he has enough stress as it is making a stop. I feel letting them know who and what they are getting out of a stop from me is the least I can do.
I understand the 2A/4A don't tread on me argument in regards to the traffic stops. But this is one aspect where I volunteer the information is my choice. In TX they removed the penalty of not informing, so you can omit that and not be penalized. However LEOs seem to appreciate and respect the inform. It seems to level the field about what kind of person they are getting when they walk to my window.
FYI, Texas law:
GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. (a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.
Followed by: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/pr081109.pdf
HB 2730 removes DPS authority to suspend a concealed handgun license (CHL) for the holder’s failure to display the CHL to a peace officer on demand. It removes associated penalties and
suspensions for the failure to display.
So, a requirement to display, but no penalty for failing to doing so.
That link might be a helpful tool, but I would validate the info listed. I say tis because the info about reciprocity agreements for the state of Tennessee doesn't match what the TN.gov lists. Just be cautious.
Precisely. That site is a guide, and should not be trusted. This is analogous to checking the chamber on a firearm that someone just checked and handed to you. It is proper practice - verification.
Here is the Texas Statutes on Weapons http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm#46.01
ETA: OP an idea and tip - when we prepare for an interstate trip with firearms I go to each state's gov site and print out the firearms statutes then highlight the applicable ones. These printouts travel with us as a handy on-the-road reference. I realize this may seem kind of "Magoo" but when it comes to being properly informed and prepared in all aspects of firearms, this should be included. Ignorance of laws not a good defense.
I would let the officer know that way there are no issues either way.
Before I had a CCL and when I was in college I was pulled over at about 1am coming home for the weekend. Completely rural road and no street lights anywhere. Just the State Trooper and I. I had my handgun on the floor board under my seat. There was a pistol rug in the back seat. Trooper asked for my DL and Reg and also asked me to come back to his vehicle. While writing a ticket he asked me if I had a weapon in the car. I said yes and told him where it was. He asked me why I didn't tell him about it. I told him my reasoning was that it was 1am, totally dark, and no one nearby. I figured he'd be just as nervous as I was and the best thing to do wasn't to add any stress to the situation. He said that putting it that way he probably would have done the same thing in my shoes.
Following the law requiring notification is the MINIMUM...everything above that is showing respect for the officer's safety as much as yours. Remember, he's probably got a wife and kids to go home to as much as you do.
If I am the driver, and someone (else) is CCW in my car, I'm going to calmly and respectfully notify the officer that my passenger is CCW and await his instructions, whether the law says I have to or not.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/
Yes, it's wise to verify information found on the internet. I posted the above link as a starting point, not as a destination. The site has links to the official state sites which contain that state's statutes. Using the links should make research easier
xjustintimex
02-04-13, 19:06
I do it anyways, as its just going to show up when they run your ID and no need to take them by surprise if you don't have too. You dont have to say your armed, but pass them the license and when they ask the obvious, respond truthfully. Worked for me when pulled over.
RiddlerLS1
02-04-13, 19:21
I certainly have no problem informing an officer. I have a lot of friends that are LEO and would like to make everyone as safe as possible but don't want to look like a jackass as some one else implied.
I feel it certainly makes the situation safer though to always inform an officer you are in contact with. If its their first day alone off of training and they are not informed you have a CHL, you move in any certain way and they happen to notice a weapon, things could go bad pretty quick.
I think I like the idea of having the driver inform the officer that there is a carrying CHL holder in the vehicle.
Thanks for all the input
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That is not true in every state and I have been pulled over where no one ran my ID at all.
I do it anyways, as its just going to show up when they run your ID and no need to take them by surprise if you don't have too. You dont have to say your armed, but pass them the license and when they ask the obvious, respond truthfully. Worked for me when pulled over.
If the law says duty to inform then just inform. TX and OK are states where most people are carrying so its not a big deal and the officers there have encountered CCWs thousands of times. Here in northern Virginia we do not have duty to inform thank god. The rest of Virginia you would probably be thanked for providing your CHP even if you didn't have to. However in northern Virginia I have had friends frisked because they provided their CHP and were promptly searched for being a "threat" :rolleyes:
As permit holders, we are responsible for knowing & following the laws of any states we are carrying in. That being said, if you have any uncertainty, it's better to be safe than sorry. While I'm not positive, I don't believe any of the "must notify" states are only applicable to the drivers only. A cop won't be any less surprised by a firearm that's on a passenger. Personally, I would quietly hand the officer my permit & let him take it from there.
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Having represented LEO's in Arizona, I would advise to always inform. It's a courtesy and shows you are responsible carrying. The last thing that an LEO wants to find out is tht there's a loaded gun in the car that he wasn't informed about. Other states may be different.
Socom Elite
02-06-13, 10:44
It's way easier to just not get pulled over.
^^^. This.
Just make sure you know the laws of where you are at. If the law says that you must inform the cop then do so. If it doesn't say then your ok not to.
I wouldn't as a passenger unless he asked for my I.d. And in that case if a cop asks for the passengers id y'all did something g really dumb.
I would just do it... can't hurt.
Not saying this is the case for the OP but I know for me, if I was traveling with my in-laws, I'd like to know for sure ahead of time. If they realized that I was carrying, they'd absolutely soil themselves... :rolleyes:
Then again, I don't ever see myself traveling out of state with my in-laws.
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Not saying this is the case for the OP but I know for me, if I was traveling with my in-laws, I'd like to know for sure ahead of time. If they realized that I was carrying, they'd absolutely soil themselves... :rolleyes:
Then again, I don't ever see myself traveling out of state with my in-laws.
That's a good point, and a variable to weigh in your decision making. What do the in-laws know, do they have any discretion, and what is their likely behavior? Family members that have strong opposing opinions or make cute comments (innocent or otherwise) are not helpful.
We do not discuss such things beyond the front door of my house, and if others are privy to the information the same is expected of them.
xjustintimex
02-06-13, 16:19
That is not true in every state and I have been pulled over where no one ran my ID at all.
I was particularly talking about Texas. That being said, its possible it does not even range all over the state. but I have been pulled over concealing on just about every corner and it has always showed up.
Odd no one ran your id at all, but I would still say its safer to atleast show your CCW permit with your normal license if they ask you to present id.
RiddlerLS1
02-06-13, 23:59
If an officer asks for my I.d. I will always inform and present both licenses but was just more curious about if we aren't in direct contact if I should bring it up... In laws, they know I have my CHL, hasn't really been discussed further. They aren't against guns and own guns but neither have CHL.
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Gary Slider
03-15-13, 22:00
That link might be a helpful tool, but I would validate the info listed. I say tis because the info about reciprocity agreements for the state of Tennessee doesn't match what the TN.gov lists. Just be cautious.
When you read a map you need to read the legend for that map so you know what the map is telling you and don't assume. It is not a reciprocity map. The TN page at www.handgunlaw.us reflects the same data that the TN Department of Safety is reporting on who they honor and who honors them.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/tennessee.pdf
http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml
spencer_okc
03-15-13, 22:55
Oklahoma Reciprocity
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69809
Oklahoma Duty to Notify
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69791
If there is no duty to inform...don't. Why add the extra variable? Not to mention, don't LEOs automatically assume someone is armed? Do you believe they will be relieved and conduct the stop in a different manner if you notify?
I've been pulled over in VA while armed...did not inform...I had a resident CHL, driving on an out of state license and plates. Zero issues. Why? The focus of the stop was a moving violation...NOT my gun.
If there is no duty to inform...don't. Why add the extra variable? Not to mention, don't LEOs automatically assume someone is armed? Do you believe they will be relieved and conduct the stop in a different manner if you notify?
I've been pulled over in VA while armed...did not inform...I had a resident CHL, driving on an out of state license and plates. Zero issues. Why? The focus of the stop was a moving violation...NOT my gun.
+1
If you don't have to inform, then why bring it up and risk getting put at barrels end for no reason.
even when driving through states with different regulations if they are a reciprocity state with your permit state then you have to follow their rules if they differ from you states. In the referenced situation I would instruct the driver to mention that there is a legally permitted concealed weapon in the car.
"Must inform" laws make no sense.
A criminal intent on doing harm to the officer will just not inform, and shoot him.
A law abiding person who is willing to inform is not a threat.
They make as much sense as gun-free zones where only criminals will violate them.
I think the purpose of this law is for YOUR protection, not the officers. As in the situation one person described, reaching into a center console for your registration when it also has a handgun in there the officer isn't aware of could end bad.
"So I'm going to be traveling through Oklahoma and Texas with my wife's mother and step father this week. I will not be driving but both states are must inform officer states."
As an occupant I would not volunteer information unless questioned directly by an officer.
I would err on the side of knowing the law in each State in which you are traveling. Heck, messing up could literally ruin your day, like it did for this individual who ran into a LEO who was having a really bad day.
I don't post this to denigrate any LEO who may be reading this thread, only as an example of what can happen in an extreme situation. (Even though I highly doubt you're going to be frequenting dark streets late at night.)
It is kind of long (http://youtu.be/kassP7zI0qc)
Following the law requiring notification is the MINIMUM...everything above that is showing respect for the officer's safety as much as yours. Remember, he's probably got a wife and kids to go home to as much as you do.
If I am the driver, and someone (else) is CCW in my car, I'm going to calmly and respectfully notify the officer that my passenger is CCW and await his instructions, whether the law says I have to or not.
I agree. Here in New Yorkistan we don't have to tell a LEO that we are carrying unless they ask us if we have any weapons. I have had very little contact with LEO's. However, I have and will always tell them in a respectful manor that I have a firearm on me and where it is. Then I wait for them to tell me what they want me to do next. Worked out great so far.
Good luck, NYH1.
.46caliber
03-17-13, 19:10
Regardless of inform laws, I always do. I don't want a LEO to have any reason to think I am hiding anything.
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Devildawg2531
03-17-13, 19:39
When I was 22 or 23 on my way to UGA late at night on a desolate part of Hwy 316 I was pulled over by Georgia Highway Patrol for speeding 70 in a 55. I had a permit and a pistol in the car; I didn't mention the pistol in the car while getting my drivers license from my wallet the patrolman saw my permit and asked if I had a weapon. I said my pistol is in the door. He got me out of the car and had me stand by his parol car while he ran the serial #'s on my pistol. It made for a tense situation; when he gave me the speeding ticket he took the magazine out of the pistol and tossed both in my backseat. Since then I've never mentioned if I'm carrying and keep the permit covered in my wallet.
SylntSleepr
03-17-13, 20:19
+1
If you don't have to inform, then why bring it up and risk getting put at barrels end for no reason.
+1
Anything you say can and will be used against you. Many of us law abiding citizens still have to deal with profiling. It is automatically assumed that we are up to no good based on appearances. It is sad, but fact.
My ccw is stamped right there on my i.d. If asked, then yes, I will inform. Otherwise my mouth is shut. Letting an LEO I am carrying only gives them reason to harass me and ask an abundance of questions which have no bearing to which I was pulled over in the first place.
Abide by the rules of the road, stay current on your insurance and registration, and be sure all of your external lights are functioning so you won't have to worry about being pulled over in the first place.
I have yet to show my I.D. and answer any questions.
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