View Full Version : Anyone here transition from a 1911 to an HK45/45C for daily carry?
I've been a dedicated 1911 shooter for many years and carry a 5" steel 1911 concealed on a daily basis.
For various reasons, I'm considering the HK45C with LEM trigger as a possible replacement for my EDC weapon. I have one on the way and while I will ultimately draw my own conclusions, I was curious if anyone here has transitioned (or attempted to) from a 1911 to an HK45 or 45C with LEM trigger? If so, what was your experience? Did you ultimately prefer the 1911 or did the HK win you over and make you a convert?
I'll expand this question to include any HK45/45C with any trigger variant, not just LEM.
Thanks,
Mike
Hunter Rose
02-05-13, 20:47
Transitioning to LEM from a 1911 will take a little dedication, as the trigger systems are very different. Be prepared for some frustration initially.
Since you have been a dedicated 1911 guy, you should look at the Variant 9 control plate. It disables the de-cocking feature of the control lever. The HK45 then behaves just like a 1911 where the safety only acts as a safety and the trigger will always be in SA unless you drop the hammer manually or had a misfire. The HK45 trigger is pretty decent in SA mode, and this would be the easiest transition from a 1911. I have got Variant 9 HKs and 1911s, and there is really no issues switching between the two other than differing magazine release locations.
First, that is one of the best polymer 45's made. Second, it will be a big transition from a 1911. So plan on spending a lot of time learning your new trigger.
C4
The HK45 does feel similar to a 1911 though in its grip. I have a full size HK45 and it has been flawless. The trigger is SA mode is joyfull but DA is heavy. It's also a very accurate gun. I do wish I would have gotten the HK45c over the full size though.
You will not regret it. I would recommend the 45c. Its still 'big' but nowhere near the size of the full size.
****ing awesome guns.
ETA: i own 1911's, the hk45 and 45c
Hogsgunwild
02-05-13, 22:29
My first carry gun after 1911s was a P2000 .40 S&W with a light LEM.
I liked it a lot. Very fast and accurate. I think some experienced users on here had pointed out that the LEM can make you tend to pull your shots low at times? I seemed to experience that but also went through a period of pulling shots low due to the .40 making me anticipate my shots...
The LEM requires more time / work to master than probably most systems but I cannot help but like it. I am sitting next to my new HK45C with a light LEM and have been shooting it and my light LEM USP 45 a lot lately. My carry guns are PPQs and a (just acquired) P99C AS that blow all other guns away as far as what I can do with them but I am still infatuated with the .45 caliber H&Ks with light LEM triggers. Accurate and reliable as hell!
I will sum it up by saying that even the grip on the HK45C, as nice as it is, seems way too bulky (noticed this on my M&P 45C as well) when
I go back to my little Walthers, and the 9MM gets many more rounds right where I want them in a shorter time so I leave the range feeling that I would be nothing short of stupid to actually carry the HK45C over my Walthers. Awesome as the LEM and HK45s are, they seem like antiquated dinosaurs to me. Yet I still dumped the coin into them and had to have them. Says a lot for the H&K as I have been doing a massive gun downsizing / selling campaign lately and will only keep the absolute best.
Sorry for the rant but my evolution continued well past the 1911 to H&K stage as much as I love them both, they really seem too lacking to me these days. If I had to stick with a .45, the H&Ks are in a league of their own.
MadAngler1
02-06-13, 01:46
I've been a dedicated 1911 shooter for many years and carry a 5" steel 1911 concealed on a daily basis.
For various reasons, I'm considering the HK45C with LEM trigger as a possible replacement for my EDC weapon. I have one on the way and while I will ultimately draw my own conclusions, I was curious if anyone here has transitioned (or attempted to) from a 1911 to an HK45 or 45C with LEM trigger? If so, what was your experience? Did you ultimately prefer the 1911 or did the HK win you over and make you a convert?
I'll expand this question to include any HK45/45C with any trigger variant, not just LEM.
Thanks,
Mike
I'm in the process of making that transition after much internal debate with myself. Just as a background, I've taken Gunsite 150 & 250 classes, a two day Magpul class with Travis Haley and 5 days of mixed pistol and rifle shooting with Larry Vickers ALL with either my Kimber CDP 5" or a Nighthawk Talon II bobtail. Both guns have at least 3000 rounds each. In that time, I've broken a poorly staked plunger tube off my Kimber's frame along with two grip screw bushings. I've had the ejector replaced on my Talon II twice (theoritically due to the magazines striking the ejector upon insertion) in addition to their factory rear sight falling off after less than 500 rounds (ironically, my wilson XTac did the same thing).
After all these malfunctions with so little round counts, I first went out and bought a G17 at the LAV's urging, followed by the HK45 compact. At first, I was going to trade the HK45c back in, but after the gun ban scare, i took it out to my range and gave it another try with the perspective that I can grip the gun or run it like a 1911. It's a variant 1, so it can be kept cocked and locked like a 1911, but the gun does not point like a 1911 nor does the grip feel like one (it really needs an optional larger backstrap). The biggest challenge is getting used to the grip on the pistol and respecting the way the gun points when pulling up from low ready positionor drawing from a holster. The mass if the slide and height ofnthe slide relative to your grip is a major factor shooting HK or Sig pistols. You can get your hands up higher on a 1911 or a Glock than you can a glock or Sig. This makes shooting and controlling a 1911 or Glock far easier when engaging targets. The HK makes up for it though with its light weight and superior recoil spring system. Still, it's a different animal, and it will take me awhile to get used to it. I have a Milt Sparks VM-2 and a Raven Concealment holster set on order., so hopefully I'll be able to practice this spring more.
I think a LEM vs DA/SA HK trigger vs. a 1911 single action trigger isn't as big of a deal as getting used to the feel of drawing the hk45 from your holster and knowing how to present the pistol appropriately to line your sights quickly on the target. With the 1911, it still feels more natural to me than my Glock 17, but I can do both just as fast now. The trigger pull was less of an issue, and if you install a LEM spring kit tuned for a 5.5-6 lb pull, I doubt it will feel much different than a glock. For my variant 1 trigger, I plan on running it cocked and locked in condition 3, so that like a 1911, I deactivate the thumb safety during the draw, However, i obviously can't keep my thumb on it like I can with a 1911.
Again, Iwould worry less about the trigger and more about the subtle differences in drawing and presenting the gun on target when comparing a 1911 to the HK 45. The HK's different slide height, bore vs line of sight axes amd grip design will take a lot to get used to. I think the advantages to this gun are far to great to ignore though given how fragile and maintenance intensive 1911s really are. I plan on keeping my wilson and nighthawk for life, but I sold my Kimber after it was fixed.
Magic_Salad0892
02-06-13, 02:57
The HK45/C is a good gun.
If you want a 1911-like poly gun, than a S&W M&P midsize with Apex FSS, 10-8 sights, and manual safety is what you'd have wanted.
Swamprattler
02-06-13, 03:42
Great post by madangler1. I have had several 1911's dating back over 30 years. For the most part have enjoyed them all. When I switched to both the HK 45 and Hk45c, I left them as the came so I could use them cocked and locked. Both are great guns, and shoot great in single action. To me, the double action is just a rarely used nice option.
DanjojoUSMC
02-06-13, 04:01
Hk45c is a good alternative to a compact 1911 for carry, even the used USPc's in 45 that you can find for $600 or so. Use the 10rd magazines for range, home, reload. They have been doing 45's well for a while.
Hogsgunwild
02-06-13, 06:41
I should add that it would be a good idea to shoot a version of the
HK45(C) that has the thumb safety enough to judge if it is going to cramp your style or not. I found that even the newer and improved thumb safeties on late model H&Ks are not as user friendly as the 1911's thumb safety, for me. This weighed heavily in my decision to go with the LEM over an ambi, V2 or V10 for me (being a lefty). I felt that the thumb safeties were a bit in the way and I was not gripping the pistol as consistently with them. The 1911's were very natural for me.
That's the ONE HK firearm I actually like. I couldn't DUMP the 1911 fast enough to get into that pistol if I were in your shoes.
For several years my competition gun was variant of 1911, actually STI 2011 in .40SW. But as same time my carry and IDPA guns were HK P2000SK and HK P30L, both with LEM trigger. Since 2011 law here allows .45 ACP pistols for CCW, so I acquired HK45C (it is unobtanium here in EU - US-only model), that I converted to LEM.
I never had problems with going back and forth between 1911-style platform and HK LEM pistols. Obviously 2.5lb SA competition trigger beats 5-6lb LEM but it was not big issue for me. Important part is that HK uses 1911 grip angle, so there is no problem with muscle memory on draw (unlike going HK-Glock or 1911-Glock). Some shooters might find magazine release style on HK hardest to learn. For me it was not a problem, as I'm lefty and I use my middle finger both on push button or paddle style releases.
I think, that going from 1911 to HK45C (or HK45) can actually be easiest and best route for dedicated 1911 shooter who want to go into reliability and durability or modern polymer pistol. LEM trigger, while has some learning curve is best option for CCW (I use it in competition as well).
Having essentially been down that road some years ago, I have a few thoughts.
While the HK45 is undoubtedly a fantastic pistol, in terms of accuracy, reliability, durability and build quality, it is BIG for daily concealed carry. While the 45C is smaller, my experience is that it is substantially harder to shoot as well as the HK45 because of its smaller grip.
My choice, and I have these pistols, is a P30 in .40 over the 45C. The reason is it holds 13 cartridges versus eight in the standard 45C magazine, and the P30's full grip, but overall smaller size allows me to shoot it measurably better than the 45C. This is similar to how I shoot a G17/22 better than a G20/21.
Of course, the only reason I carry a P30 in .40 is when around areas with larger animals, and for that I run the Ranger 180 bonded or a 200 grain DT FMJ penetrator load. Otherwise I prefer the P30 in 9mm.
brickboy240
02-06-13, 11:31
I am seriously considering trading two of my 1911s (my non old Colts) towards an HK45C.
I have not shot one yet but have handled one enough to know I will probably be able to get used to it fast. It is also about the size of my G19.
I never liked the USP 45s but this HK45C really seems like a perfect carry gun.
Thanks for all the replies so far, especially MadAngler's informative post. All of your thoughts and experiences are giving me a clearer picture of what I'm in for as I evaluate the new platform.
Sounds like I will need to spend a lot of time at the range with the HK45C before I will be able to come to any final conclusions. I will continue to carry my 1911 while I am evaluating the HK. So, if I decide it's not for me there's no harm and no foul.
One factor that I know will probably influence me is the issue of support gear. I'm heavily invested in 1911 holsters and magazines. A new weapon will mean new holsters, magazines, mag carriers, etc. I expect that I will have to fall in love the HK before I fully commit, as it will mean a financial investment beyond the cost of the weapon itself.
Magic_Salad0892
02-07-13, 00:36
That's the ONE HK firearm I actually like. I couldn't DUMP the 1911 fast enough to get into that pistol if I were in your shoes.
I take it you don't dig 1911s?
Emotional investment isn't what you need in a handgun. Buy a good gun and rock it whether it warms your soul or not. I came up on custom 1911s and use a Glock now.
Hogsgunwild
02-07-13, 04:39
Thanks for all the replies so far, especially MadAngler's informative post. All of your thoughts and experiences are giving me a clearer picture of what I'm in for as I evaluate the new platform.
Sounds like I will need to spend a lot of time at the range with the HK45C before I will be able to come to any final conclusions. I will continue to carry my 1911 while I am evaluating the HK. So, if I decide it's not for me there's no harm and no foul.
One factor that I know will probably influence me is the issue of support gear. I'm heavily invested in 1911 holsters and magazines. A new weapon will mean new holsters, magazines, mag carriers, etc. I expect that I will have to fall in love the HK before I fully commit, as it will mean a financial investment beyond the cost of the weapon itself.
The HK45C route will not be cheap. I recently bought eight extra eight-round mags for about $70.00 a pop from hkparts.net. They had them in stock and their service is excellent.
The thing to really think hard about (and this comes from someone that has a Chuck Rogers Colt and Springfield Pro among my herd of reliable Colts) is that with the H&K, you WILL, without any doubt, be entering a new realm of reliability. Kind of like going from a reciprocating engine to a turbine engine. And you give up no accuracy. You may gain some.
I am still emotionally attached to my very reliable 1911s but the standards are different. For example, I owned four H&Ks when I started carrying them. I ran some harder than others but it boggled my mind that my gunsmith was becoming a stranger. Besides my cleaning and more often, lubing them, none of these guns ever needed so much as a magazine or recoil spring change.
Hell, there have been several occasions when I had three 1911s at the gunsmith's shop, down for maintenance, all one time.
I am a 1911 guy, but I have a hk pro limited edition FDE 45c on order and I'm planning on that being my carry pistol.Don't get me wrong I'm attached to my GRP but like said above"that with the H&K, you WILL, without any doubt, be entering a new realm of reliability. Kind of like going from a reciprocating engine to a turbine engine. And you give up no accuracy. You may gain some."This is what i'm going for.As for support gear,I have several 10rd. mags waiting, it comes with 3 @ 8 rd mags,it has nightsights but I have a 10-8 waiting.as for holsters I have a Kramer owb doublle mag carrier and a Landshark iwb all waiting.
http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad24/ca_dunn/IMG_1531.jpg
What I don't have is a pile of springs, spare parts and lube.
The HK45C's reputation for reliability and accuracy is my primary reason for considering it. While I have rarely had any problem with my full-sized 1911s, the Commander-sized and smaller models have proven to be finicky and I don't consider them an option. I want to stick with .45ACP.
An HK45C is almost half the weight of a fully-loaded 1911. Stick a light on the front (something like the Viridian C5L) and it's still smaller and lighter than a 5" steel 1911. Kind of hard to not at least consider that package as an option.
As for the trigger, if I don't like the LEM I may swap it for the Variant 9 (SA only) as someone else suggested and see how that feels for me.
As for holsters, if I do decide to transition to the HK I would probably go with a Raven. Been wanting to try their stuff for a while now.
Thanks again for all the thoughts,
-Mike
Hunter Rose
02-08-13, 10:58
As for the trigger, if I don't like the LEM I may swap it for the Variant 9 (SA only) as someone else suggested and see how that feels for me.
Have you ordered the LEM already? If not, I'd highly recommend trying the Variant 9 first. My guess is you would find it very much to your liking.
I'm a former/current (as soon as my Colt gets back from MARS Armament) 1911 shooter, and the Variant 9 manual of arms is pretty much exactly the same. You would be able to transition exceedingly fast to the HK45C, gain the added reliability, and not loose much in skill during the transition.
LEM is a very different trigger, and there will most likely be a much longer transition time (i.e. more cost in ammunition) filled with some frustration as you learn the new trigger. Your skill level as measured on a timer will also probably slow noticeably before it gets back to where you are currently at. There's tons of posts on managing the LEM trigger here and at pistol-forum.com . Be cognizant the concensus seems to be the LEM works best when shot more like a DA revolver with a rolling break as opposed to a SA trigger with lots of takeup. If you treat it like the latter you probably will have less than awesome results.
Unless you just are no longer comfortable with cocked and locked carry or just have your heart set on trying LEM, it seems more logical to start Variant 1 or 9 and if not satisfied then try LEM. My guess is you would really enjoy the cocked and locked HKs, as most 1911 guys I have let shoot mine find them very intuitive.
Just my opinion since you asked for it.
HunterRose,
Yes, the version coming to me already has the LEM trigger. I figured that since I was considering a complete change of platform after almost 20 years of using the 1911 I would try something as "modern" (for lack of a better term) as possible, especially after LAV and KH spoke so highly of the LEM trigger in their HK45 interview. I also have a well-informed friend with the Navy who recommended the LEM trigger on that particular handgun.
Perhaps you are right and the V9 trigger would have made for the easiest transition, but I at least want to try something new before reverting back to the familiar.
How difficult is it to obtain trigger conversion kits in the event I decide to swap the LEM for a V9? How difficult is installation? Is this something a mechanically inclined user can do, or is factory conversion recommended?
-Mike
Swamprattler
02-08-13, 15:24
To MP JMP above, in considering holsters, I would look at other makers than Raven. I say this having tried several of their holsters, both IWB and OWB, and each with almost every attachment they come with. I did this because of so many saying how great they were. My experience with them is; OWB was okay, IWB was poor because of uncomfortableness and parts breakages. I have used other kydex holsters without all the problems. My best experiences with my four HK's (HK 45, HK45c, and two HK P30's) have been with Crossbreed Super Tuck, Galco King Tuck, and Milt Sparks VM II for IWB, and Crossbreed Snap Slide for OWB. Just some consideration based on persoal experience. Good luck in your pursuit.
Okay, I will be the lone voice of dissent here. I tried really hard to like the 45c, I really did. I had also looked at it as a polymer replacement for a 1911, and spent a lot of time with one. I installed the LEM, and really liked it (once I learned it) as a trigger system.
Unfortunately, I found the grip texture (or lack thereof) too smooth for me, and I did not feel comfortable with my grip on the pistol. I much preferred the texture of the USP series. I also found the inability to mount a full size light to be a problem as well.
Don't get me wrong, I think they are very reliable, well made pistols, and if they work for you, you would be hard pressed to find a more solid polymer pistol. I ended up going with the M&P 45 compact, which works well for me and my criteria.
I would also recommend the Milt Sparks VMII for the HK, it is what I used for mine before I switched, and is a very good IWB holster.
Hunter Rose
02-08-13, 19:01
Perhaps you are right and the V9 trigger would have made for the easiest transition, but I at least want to try something new before reverting back to the familiar.
How difficult is it to obtain trigger conversion kits in the event I decide to swap the LEM for a V9? How difficult is installation? Is this something a mechanically inclined user can do, or is factory conversion recommended?
-Mike
No worries there, as the LEM is a very capable trigger. Swapping from LEM to V9 is a little involved. You're replacing a decent amount of parts and HK pistols in general are not the easiest or most intuitive to work on. More difficult than detail stripping a 1911. That being said, if you are mechanically inclined it is definitely doable. Search HKPro.com and there are many tutorials. I even believe there is a sticky on the handguns section there. But, since this would be your first HK pistol, chances are you may encounter a headache or three doing it yourself. My recommendation would be to let HK do it. Their customer service is good and turnaround pretty quick for conversion swaps.
If you haven't looked at it yet, I'd recommend Todd Green's pistol training blog. He shot an LEM P30 and LEM HK45 for a year each. There is tons of great info in those posts.
Good luck with your new pistol.
I pretty much agree with everything said here. My 1911 is long retired as a safe piece and when I use a .45 it's most normally my 45C.
One thing I might mention here is I've spent years swapping back and forth between single action and light LEM on a 45 and 45C. I've finally come to like the light LEM and run it in all three of my current HK pistols.
But should you decide on using the gun as a single action carry I would strongly recommend that you invest in a single action only detent plate to prevent accidentally decocking it into DA mode. I experienced it a few times early on with these guns when I first had them.
On this gun if you're going to carry it SA then dedicate it to SA.
UPDATE: I had the opportunity to fire a P2000 in .40 cal with LEM trigger that belongs to an acquaintance. Other than caliber, I believe this gun is very similar in design to the HK45C.
Suprisingly, I did not have any issues with the trigger and after just a minute or so of dry fire I was able to operate the weapon as if it were an old friend. In practice, I found that the LEM trigger operates not much differently than a Glock trigger, even though I know that mechanically it is totally different. Also interesting to me was that felt recoil was noticeably less than with the similarly-sized Glock 23, which I always found to be kind of "snappy" and hard to keep on target for follow-up shots. This H&K felt to me more like a 9mm in terms of recoil. The front sight barely moved. I'm hoping this tendency for relatively low felt-recoil carries over to the HK45C, as well.
What did cause some issues was the mag release. I tried using both my firing hand thumb (as I would with a 1911) and my firing hand index finger. Both methods proved to be awkward and would take some getting used to. I also had to get used to the fact that the slide often (but not always) went forward and chambered a round as I was inserting a fresh mag from slide lock. I will definitely need to rehearse a completely new manual of arms with the H&K.
Thanks again for all the advice and guidance!
-Mike
One last question for those in the know:
One the 1st stage "slack" (which cocks the hammer) is taken up on the LEM trigger, is the 2nd stage trigger break essentially the same as the single-action trigger break for a V1/V9? Or is the feel/weight of the trigger break totally different?
What did cause some issues was the mag release. I tried using both my firing hand thumb (as I would with a 1911) and my firing hand index finger. Both methods proved to be awkward and would take some getting used to. I also had to get used to the fact that the slide often (but not always) went forward and chambered a round as I was inserting a fresh mag from slide lock. I will definitely need to rehearse a completely new manual of arms with the H&K.
Mag release on HK45C is much better than on P2000. Actually lot of people (including me) use HK45C release as upgrade to P2000/P2000SK. Best way to use it is either middle finger (my preferred method) or trigger finger.
Slide goes always forward when you dynamically insert magazine and "hit" pistol in the process. If you use middle finger for mag release, it forces your trigger finger to rest on slide release with slight down force. This makes slide to go forward 100% of time. I'm lefty and this technique works for me also on 1911 or Glock.
Psalms144.1
02-19-13, 22:03
MPJMP - we transitioned from G19s to HK45CTs last year. Ours were DA/SA decock only; but, at the same time I acquired a P30 and P2000 (both 9mm) in LEM. I also "grew up" shooting 1911s.
A lot of people (myself included) struggle with the transition to LEM. The initial take up of "slack" is a dream - light press and you're on your way. Then, you hit the WALL. The end of the trigger movement just prior to sear release is stiff and pretty heavy - on my guns, feels like about 6# or so. Oddly, that "wall" seems more severe on my P30 than my P2000 - trigger geometry at work, I guess. A lot of us, when we're getting used to the trigger, tend to try to shove through that wall after "staging" - this is what leads to a lot of shots thrown low.
The only way to break this habit is to concentrate on making each manipulation of the trigger a continuous press - don't let yourself even think of the process as "staging" and breaking. Trigger press starts and continues straight through; it just gets a lot heavier right at the end. Dry fire (lots of QUALITY dry fire) is the key to success here.
Once you're adjusted to the trigger, I believe the HK45c is a DAMN fine choice. Our pistols might have a bit of an advantage from the slightly longer threaded barrels, but they are INCREDIBLY accurate. We had a lot of guys go from good to great when they got used to the heavy DA pull; several guys scored their first "possibles" on qualification. I watched one of my guys draw and fire a magazine full of single shots to the head of our qual target at 10 yards, and placed all 11 rounds in a hole not much bigger than a quarter. We've also had NO issues whatsoever with reliability.
Magazines are hard to come buy, and spendy. Sight options, luckily, are getting better - with Dawson, 10-8 and Trijicon being solid contenders to replace the piss-poor sights that HK ships these with. A year ago I would have told you that there are serious limitations in holster options; but, in the last couple of months it seems like everyone is getting in the swing of things and getting good leather and kydex options out there on the market.
Best of luck to you!
Regards,
Kevin
.........................
A lot of people (myself included) struggle with the transition to LEM. The initial take up of "slack" is a dream - light press and you're on your way. Then, you hit the WALL. The end of the trigger movement just prior to sear release is stiff and pretty heavy - on my guns, feels like about 6# or so.
One of solutions for this problem is to replace trigger return spring for one from heavy weight LEM. It makes pull smoother and reduces feeling of hitting wall. And gives more positive, faster trigger reset. Light LEM (4.5-5lbs) with this heavy TRS goes up about 1lbs. I shoot P30L with this setup in competition (IPSC, IDPA, 3gun) and have it as well in my carry P2000SK.
Larry Vickers
02-20-13, 09:00
You guys know my feelings on the HK 45 series - but to summarize;
Hands down the most reliable and durable polymer frame 45 ACP pistols made - period
Incredibly accurate - on par with custom 1911's
Trigger options are varied but definately require the shooter to practice and adapt to them ; not really a weakness per say but definately a difference
Sight options are improving - thankfully
Best guns hands down for suppressed use - no contest
Get stippling on the frame - I use Dave Bowie for all my polymer frame pistol work
Also Lipseys has some killer all FDE Versions coming out - ill definately be getting one of those
Enjoy - I am very proud of my involvement with the HK45 and in fact I was more involved as a 'parent' with it than the HK416 - both of which where carried on the UBL raid; the 416 made history and the HK45C was along for the ride
It don't get any better than that !!
The transition is easier if you will just get the standard trigger and carry it cocked and locked. I did just that. I switched from 1911s to an HK45c for a while. Great gun, both accurate and reliable. I have now transitioned to a G19 because they are roughly the same size and the G19 has twice the capacity. The HK45c is awesome however.
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv239/BlayGlock/HK%2045c/HKvsG19001.jpg
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv239/BlayGlock/HK%2045c/HKvsG19002.jpg
5 round Group @ 7 yards shot single action freehand. I know 7 yards isnt far, but the gun is consistent.
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv239/BlayGlock/HK%2045c/45cTarget.jpg
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-20-13, 21:26
The HK45c is far superior to any 1911, and may be the best combat handgun available (IMHO, of course).
If I was you, I might just stick with the standard safety model. The LEM is a weird trigger. Perfectly usable, but much different.
I have considered switching my HK45c to LEM several times but ultimately I prefer having the option of being able to keep it in DA safe--although when I carry it I do so cocked and locked.
Coal Dragger
02-20-13, 22:03
That is a good point, I myself would probably go for cocked and locked if I were to carry one; however, for nightstand duty having the gun in DA mode would be a real benefit.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-20-13, 22:17
I have a 3 year old. And I actually keep it in a mini safe with quick release buttons. But I still like the extra layer of safety just in case I screw up.
I have a 3 year old. And I actually keep it in a mini safe with quick release buttons. But I still like the extra layer of safety just in case I screw up.
sounds good to me
Gary1911A1
02-21-13, 09:12
As a long time fan of the 1911 I purchased both the HK45 and HK45C. After decades of use of the 1911 I myself didn't find the thumb lever of either HKs' to feel very 1911 like to me. This was with the Variation 1 and not the 9, but it looked the same in placement on the frame and I found both the HK's thumb levers to set higher on the frame than the 1911. As another poster mention I also found the grip on the HK45C to be smaller and shaped in such a way it pointed lower for me than the full size HK45. I still have both with the full size receiving the Vickers Package as my finger dragged on the bottom of the trigger guard too. If I get back to trying to adapt to the full size HK45 again I'll try the light LEM. Good luck to MPJMP on trying the HK platform. Keep us informed of your progress.
I agree with the thumb safety sitting too high for me on the 45/45C. What I would have really liked to have seen done with it is a lowered thumb safety similar to this style here.
http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_340100044_1.jpg
That and the rail having one more step in it to run and X300 and this would be about as perfect for me as you can get.
http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_340100044_1.jpg
Ha! My first "good" 1911 was a custom Springfield Champion built by Robbie Barkman when he was at the Gunsite Gunsmithy and it had that exact same lowered thumb safety. I eventually came to prefer a "standard" extended thumb safety, but still have fond memories of that gun and the lowered safety that came with it.
Now you guys have me second guessing my choice of the LEM trigger. If you had asked me a few years ago I'd have told you that anything other than a single-action trigger was the proverbial "answer in search of a question." Of course, I've moved beyond that simplistic attitude. Or have I..........
Hunter Rose
02-21-13, 15:34
Now you guys have me second guessing my choice of the LEM trigger. If you had asked me a few years ago I'd have told you that anything other than a single-action trigger was the proverbial "answer in search of a question." Of course, I've moved beyond that simplistic attitude. Or have I..........
Variant 9...Variant 9...you know you want it...
These are pictures of two 5 round groups I fired with my HK45C with light LEM trigger. Both groups were fired offhand at 7 yards with my AAC TiRant .45 suppressor attached.
Shot last year:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/goddamnit/General%20pics/100901_123400.jpg?t=1318193389
This group fired this past Sunday, the 17th.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/goddamnit/General%20pics/021403_173400_zpsc09f9277.jpg?t=1361483531
Like LAV says. These guns don't just hold their own against the venerable 1911 they surpass it by leaps and bounds. And I say that having grown up with 1911's in my hand and a 1941 Colt that was the first handgun I ever shot or learned to field strip thanks to my dad. I'm only throwing that out here so as to alleviate anyone misunderstanding me to be a hater of the 1911 pattern.
The HK45/C is a good gun.
If you want a 1911-like poly gun, than a S&W M&P midsize with Apex FSS, 10-8 sights, and manual safety is what you'd have wanted.
Hardcore 1911 owner here checking in!
I own several COLT, Kimber and Springfield 1911's as well as the M&P45 Mid-Compact "midsize" and the HK 45C.
I started out carrying 1911's and bought the M&P because I wanted something I could just toss around as a EDC. Nice pistol but then I got my HK45CT and I can not describe how much I like this pistol in words. I exclusively carry the HK now and couldn't see myself going back to 1911's or the M&P for a EDC gun.
Btw, when I say HK45CT, I mean the new HK45C, with the tactical barrel, NOT the HK USP 45CT.
I agree with the thumb safety sitting too high for me on the 45/45C.
One of reasons why I prefer LEM trigger in this pistols.
Since we started to show off..... Friend was shooting my HK45C at 15m (16+yrd) and he had problem to get used for LEM (it was first time he shot LEM trigger) shooting constantly low. So I took pistol to show him how he should work on the trigger and I shot remaining 4 rounds in magazine into this, nice hole:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Camera%20Awesome%20Photos/preview_image_1_64848472x.jpg
I do not shot like that every day. Actually when shooting at 25m (27+yrd), shortly after I got my HK45C and installed night sights, it looked more like that:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ieUrHK6cwXE/T0aV384Qz1I/AAAAAAAAAKk/xuEJEgXvF1Q/s1600/HK45C+Henie+Magtech+230gr.jpg
Short sights radius is not helping at this distance. But within some 15-18yrd it is really able to put all rounds in one, small hole.
brickboy240
02-22-13, 10:26
I almost hate to ask but how does the M&P45 mid-size compare in accuracy to the HK45C?
Reason I ask is because I am used to striker fired pistols and recently looked at both the HK45C and the M&P and was surprised at how nice the M&P was. Had a trigger I could live with and was tons cheaper than the HK.
I WAS totally ready to sell a few 1911s to fund the HK45C...but then I had to pick up the M&P and start messing with it! LOL
Is it worth paying the extra for the HK45C versus the M&P45 mid-size? Not a real fan of d/a-s/a and that LEM is just odd to me.
-brickboy240
Psalms144.1
02-22-13, 20:26
Brickboy - the HK45CT I was issued is, by far, the most accurate handgun I've shot, with the possible exception of some high-end, hand-fitted and tuned 1911s. So, from a strict mechanical accuracy perspective, I think the HK is hard to beat.
Having said that, people that I would trust my life to sing the praises of the accuracy and handling of the M&P 45 line. You also have a lot of training time invested in a striker-fired platform, so, I'm not sure that the "juice is worth the squeeze" going to the HK (which will cost you twice as much out of the box...)
Regards,
Kevin
azeriosu85
02-23-13, 11:14
As to stippling, anyone have pictures of an HK45c stippled? it's the only thing making me want to sell this otherwise perfect gun. Also i'm stuck between Bowie or Cold Bore:help: I hear the USPc45 is better feeling, but have never held one
Be cognizant the concensus seems to be the LEM works best when shot more like a DA revolver with a rolling break as opposed to a SA trigger with lots of takeup. If you treat it like the latter you probably will have less than awesome results.
I have to disagree, I changed my USPc 45 from V1 to light LEM. I fire it staging it. Pull out all of the take up and fire as single action. It is a short reset so if your "rolling" the trigger through as a DA revolver your loosing out of the fact that the short reset allows for fast precise shots vs a traditional DAO which the LEM is not.
Curious why the transition from the G19 to the HK45Cs?
I have been looking at the 45c and you are correct, mags are not easy to come by and they are not cheap that is for sure.
MPJMP - we transitioned from G19s to HK45CTs last year. Ours were DA/SA decock only; but, at the same time I acquired a P30 and P2000 (both 9mm) in LEM. I also "grew up" shooting 1911s.
A lot of people (myself included) struggle with the transition to LEM. The initial take up of "slack" is a dream - light press and you're on your way. Then, you hit the WALL. The end of the trigger movement just prior to sear release is stiff and pretty heavy - on my guns, feels like about 6# or so. Oddly, that "wall" seems more severe on my P30 than my P2000 - trigger geometry at work, I guess. A lot of us, when we're getting used to the trigger, tend to try to shove through that wall after "staging" - this is what leads to a lot of shots thrown low.
The only way to break this habit is to concentrate on making each manipulation of the trigger a continuous press - don't let yourself even think of the process as "staging" and breaking. Trigger press starts and continues straight through; it just gets a lot heavier right at the end. Dry fire (lots of QUALITY dry fire) is the key to success here.
Once you're adjusted to the trigger, I believe the HK45c is a DAMN fine choice. Our pistols might have a bit of an advantage from the slightly longer threaded barrels, but they are INCREDIBLY accurate. We had a lot of guys go from good to great when they got used to the heavy DA pull; several guys scored their first "possibles" on qualification. I watched one of my guys draw and fire a magazine full of single shots to the head of our qual target at 10 yards, and placed all 11 rounds in a hole not much bigger than a quarter. We've also had NO issues whatsoever with reliability.
Magazines are hard to come buy, and spendy. Sight options, luckily, are getting better - with Dawson, 10-8 and Trijicon being solid contenders to replace the piss-poor sights that HK ships these with. A year ago I would have told you that there are serious limitations in holster options; but, in the last couple of months it seems like everyone is getting in the swing of things and getting good leather and kydex options out there on the market.
Best of luck to you!
Regards,
Kevin
Psalms144.1
02-25-13, 06:52
Curious why the transition from the G19 to the HK45Cs?
I have been looking at the 45c and you are correct, mags are not easy to come by and they are not cheap that is for sure.Several factors went into the decision. First, our G19s were getting a little long in the tooth (7 years old or so) and we shoot a lot through them every year - on the order of 7-12K rounds per pistol - so it was getting on time for new pistols. Since the 45CTs were available through our supply chain, and we spend a lot of time in OCONUS environments stuck with FMJ ammunition, we decided to give them a shot (no pun intended).
I had some concerns about the switch, specifically with loss of magazine capacity, but this took place right about the time that current production G19s were at their least reliable, so I didn't want to request new Glocks and find out we got a bunch of problem pistols.
We still have the G19s in the safe, but no one I know has opted to stick with them after getting used to the 45CT's trigger...
Regards,
Kevin
One of solutions for this problem is to replace trigger return spring for one from heavy weight LEM. It makes pull smoother and reduces feeling of hitting wall. And gives more positive, faster trigger reset. Light LEM (4.5-5lbs) with this heavy TRS goes up about 1lbs. I shoot P30L with this setup in competition (IPSC, IDPA, 3gun) and have it as well in my carry P2000SK.
This is the best trigger advice in this thread for the LEM crowd... I was going to chime in with the same but montrala took care of it.
I'm very close to stippling my HK45C...
I have a few ideas in my head to make it look factory yet at the same time vastly improve the grip. here is what I did to my HK45 fullsize last summer.
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7784/img2835a.jpg
For those who have stippled the grip on their HK, do you find that the rough texture causes your cover garment to grab excessively when carrying concealed?
When I conceal my HK45 it eats my t-shirts... and it is as finely stippled as I could make it, hardly aggressive, yet fabric catches on it.
Coal Dragger
03-26-13, 03:10
I'm very close to stippling my HK45C...
I have a few ideas in my head to make it look factory yet at the same time vastly improve the grip. here is what I did to my HK45 fullsize last summer.
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7784/img2835a.jpg
How do you like the LEM trigger? I had the chance to handle two P30's the other day one with the LEM and the other a conventional DA/SA with the safety and de-cocker on the back of the frame.
Honestly not exactly overwhelmed with either trigger, but maybe the HK45 trigger is a bit better. I didn't notice any meaningful difference in total trigger pull once the miles and miles of slack was taken out, and the reset on both was borderline atrocious.
What can be done with the triggers on these pistols to make them more refined? For the money HK wants for these things they should be much much better. How good are some of the smiths working on these guns at making improvements?
The sights are also rubbish, but that is an easy enough fix.
Psalms144.1
03-26-13, 06:44
Coal Dragger - my issued HK45CT was DA/SA with decock only, and the DA trigger pull was a horror show. I would honestly have to put it at 14-15# - heaviest stock trigger I've ever felt. The rest of the pistols on my team (a sample of about 15) had DA triggers that varied from about 10# up to equally nasty to mine.
SA triggers are a little creepy, but otherwise completely workable - prompting lots of discussions as to why we don't convert them all to SA only.
The LEM trigger is a different story, especially in light LEM and/or standard LEM with a lightened firing pin block spring. You need to think about that trigger as a two-stage trigger - the initial long, but light and smooth, takeup, and the break. On my P30 and P2000, the takeup is long, but the break is distinct and crisp. This honestly allows me to "hard prep" the trigger like a fiend on presentation, and as a result, I'm much more consistent and accurate with the first round out of the holster than I am with any other pistol besides the 1911. The problem most starting-LEM shooters have is treating the trigger pull as two parts, leading them to "slap" through the takeup and then stop their trigger pull at the "wall" and snatching the break when they think their sight alignment is just right.
Reset is "long," but, honestly, with the amount of time needed to re-aquire the front sight during recoil, there's no practical difference in speed during sighted fire. As an example, when I'm working hard, I can achieve accurate shot to shot splits with a G19 in the .15-.16 second category; with my P2000 my splits are in the .17-.2 range. Now, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics, and a lawyer would twist that data to say the LEM is "25% slower," but, for me, I cannot tell the difference in actual shooting between the two.
Add to this that my issued 45CT was accurate on par with some of the best 1911s I've ever shot, and I gladly learned to suffer through the DA pull. Likewise, my P2000 and P30 are noticeably more accurate, for me and a number of other shooters, than any Glock I've ever owned or shot.
Now, I'm not going to lie and tell you the transition is easy or painless. It took the best part of a year of constant dry fire practice to learn how to really run the LEM the way it's capable of being run, and, in the beginning, I was ready to give up more than once as I short-stroked the trigger like mad (I'd been shooting Glocks aggressively and exclusively for 6+ years prior to that).
There are two options in LEM trigger work - Bill Springfield and Gray Guns. I've never had any work done by either, but, from some of the stories I've heard about problems with guns post-work by Mr. Springfield, I'd hesitate to send him one of my $1K pistols. I have, on the other hand, had the pleasure of handling a couple of HKs that Bruce Gray and crew have worked over, and, I can tell you, they are fantastic. Break is cleaner but less of a "wall," reset is noticeably reduced. Plus, having met and interacted with Mr. Gray over the last several years, I can tell you that he is one of nature's true gentlemen, and will ensure that, whatever work you ask for will be done to the highest possible standards.
But, it sounds like you're pretty negative about the pistol already, so I'm not sure you're ever going to be happy with it, given the initial cost and, if you go the GGI route, the additional cost for a very expensive action job. Between base pistol, GGI duty trigger work, and a good set of NS, you're looking to invest close the $1500; and that's without a holster, or spare magazines that run about $50 each. It could be the 45C just isn't a good gamble for you...
Regards,
Kevin
Coal Dragger
03-26-13, 14:04
Thanks for the input. I am not ruling out an HK45, or for that matter even a P30 at some point. I used to have a USP45 and I shot it well, but when I started to compete with it on a regular basis I felt the trigger was holding me back. After trading it off on a Kimber Super Match II, my scores went up almost immediately, although in slow fire the HK was quite accurate with most ammo although not as accurate as my Kimber has been.
My "problem" as it were, is that I have now been spoiled with firearms that have excellent triggers for getting the most practical accuracy out of a firearm that I can get. Between my Kimber 1911, my Benelli MP95e, my Freedom Arms, my Cooper Arms rifles, my Kimber Model 82, and Geissele equipped AR's I have become really accustomed to nice smooth triggers with good clean breaks.
So going back to shooting a service style mushy trigger is really noticeable to me, and although I can still shoot them pretty well in the back of my mind I am irritated with them. Plus I also no longer enjoy Uncle Sam's Misguided Children paying me to shoot, and footing the ammo bill. Nor do I have the advantage of Missouri State University providing me with all the .22LR match ammo I cared to shoot in practice and matches.
End result is I don't get nearly as much trigger time as I used to, hell I used to be able to pick up nearly anything and get good results out of it. I only got to qualify with the M9 one time in the USMC just before deploying to Iraq, and fired a 387/400 on my first practice relay, at which point I was pulled off the line and assigned to coaching duties. Sadly those days are over, and I have lost that edge. Learning a new trigger at my own expense of time and ammo costs is not something I look forward to.
That said if the trigger on an HK45 or P30 can be cleaned up and improved at bit, I would love to have one. I really liked my old USP45, and trusted that gun with my life. I know HK's just ****in' work, period, and that is very attractive. I know from experience that they are mechanically very accurate too which is a huge plus since I am not at all uncomfortable hunting with a handgun, and the .45ACP can be a good small game getter with careful shot placement if me and the gun are up to it.
Then the question would be which fire control variant to go with, the LEM was much much better than I expected it to be and I would treat it like a two stage trigger. In fact that is what I though it was until I noticed the hammer moving back as I pressed trough the first stage. The total pull weight and break didn't seem much different than the SA on the DA/SA I also handled. In fact I could tell no real difference in the actual sear release once the slack was taken up. Interesting. I also noticed in the LEM that I could ride the sear more or less to just allow for reset and then have in effect a SA trigger.
I'm not huge, so YMMV, but unless you're a monster, the 45c is about as large as I'd want to try to conceal. That being said, I know there are plenty of folks who can make a full size HK45 work for carry. I just couldn't pull it off on my frame.
I've carried 1911's and a variety of other pistols. The 45cT I own and carry now works very well and I agree it is one of if not the best combat pistol ever produced. I think the 45c carries easier than the 1911 due to the reduced weight.
HK does a very good job of subtle, but meaningful, refinements. To the point that I can transition quite easily between my USPc45 and HK45cT and barely notice the subtle improvements between the two pistols.
If you are used to a tuned Glock or M&P trigger, than you need to LISTEN to my advice and make the H&K as good as or better... I have said this multiple times on here now, people who have tried this setup are blown away by the short, positive reset, and smooth 5.5lb break.
1.) Buy the LEM model
2.) Swap out the Firing Pin Block Spring with that of the DA/SA model
3.) Swap out the Sear Spring with a Match Sear Spring
4.) Swap out the Sear with a Match Sear
5.) You will retain the LEM hammer spring and LEM Trigger Return Spring
Enjoy the best Factory derived trigger (H&K should make this a factory option) you can get on the HK45/HK45C and USP series handguns. The P2000/P30 series can get close but do not have match sears / sear springs and have a longer reset, the rest applies. I put my HK45C in the hand of a competition Glock shooter with his fancy trigger and he could not believe what the H&K trigger had become. There is hope, you just have to dig a little deeper if you want a sweet trigger foryour H&K, but it is available. :dirol:
I did not move from a 1911 to a 45C---for many many years, I carried a Browning Hi Power P35 9mm while managing a large gunstore---so close to a 1911. After a AD by one of our staff's 1911 (nobody hurt), the store owner decided no cocked and locked single-action pistols will be carried by our staff. I briefly switched to my Walther P5 9mm before moving on to the new HK USPf 9mm (DA/SA) for many years until the smaller USPc came around only to be replaced by the slimmer, trimmer P2000 9mm (DA/SA). After a while, I decided to try a 45---started looking for a USPc 45 when I found the newest 45C (DA/SA)---loved it! I believe it to be the finest carry 45---lightweight, reliable, accurate, feels good in the hand, etc, etc. Carried in an OWB holster (Galco "Concealable" model) it makes a reasonably small package.
I still consider my P2000 9mm to be my favorite carry pistol, but the 45C is my favorite 45!
After a AD by one of our staff's 1911 (nobody hurt), the store owner decided no cocked and locked single-action pistols will be carried by our staff.
Damn. I hope no one caps one off with a striker fired or DA. You guys will be selling bb guns.
Sorry if it's been mentioned, but can these be shot while riding the safety like a 1911?
Sorry if it's been mentioned, but can these be shot while riding the safety like a 1911?
It depends on which version you get. The SA/DA with Safety and Decocker model has a thumb safety that also decocks the pistol. I believe that it's the version 1. So negative on riding the safety unless you like the DA pull.
It depends on which version you get. The SA/DA with Safety and Decocker model has a thumb safety that also decocks the pistol. I believe that it's the version 1. So negative on riding the safety unless you like the DA pull.
Hmmm, ok. My preference is for cocked and locked carry and to be able to ride the thumb safety.
Assuming you had the correct variant(SA only) would it be ergonomically plausible to grip with a thumb on the lever?
Hmmm, ok. My preference is for cocked and locked carry and to be able to ride the thumb safety.
Assuming you had the correct variant(SA only) would it be ergonomically plausible to grip with a thumb on the lever?
IIRC there is a model that doesn't have a decoker, though it is tough to find. I believe it is possible. I've been wanting to get my hands on an HK45C for a long time but even the V1's are incredibly difficult to find in my neck of the woods!!!
IIRC there is a model that doesn't have a decoker, though it is tough to find. I believe it is possible. I've been wanting to get my hands on an HK45C for a long time but even the V1's are incredibly difficult to find in my neck of the woods!!!
I wonder if it would be possible to just get the parts and swap them out like the LEM.
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Detent-Plate-For-HK45-HK45C-Variant-5-6-9-213p2079.htm
There you guys go. Simple swap out. No more accidental decocking.
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Detent-Plate-For-HK45-HK45C-Variant-5-6-9-213p2079.htm
There you guys go. Simple swap out. No more accidental decocking.
This is why I love the Interwebz
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Detent-Plate-For-HK45-HK45C-Variant-5-6-9-213p2079.htm
There you guys go. Simple swap out. No more accidental decocking.
Bookmarked! Thank you.
It is out of stock. But get on the notify me option and they're really good about sending out notifications on arrival. It's best to move quickly though. Certain items sell out fast as hell on that site.
Coal Dragger
04-02-13, 14:04
Damn. I hope no one caps one off with a striker fired or DA. You guys will be selling bb guns.
Inevitably someone would then shoot their eye out.
I went from the 1911 to the full size HK45 about 2 years ago and haven't really looked back. I added the V9/10 detent plate mentioned above, took about 15 minutes. Also added an ambi safety. Am very happy with the gun, the only thing I don't like are the sights and my Trijicon HD replacements should be in the mail waiting for me.
Sent via Tapatalk 2, and still using real words.
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