View Full Version : Young Mfg. chrome M16 NM BCG tight in two uppers...
So I got my Young BCGs in and staked them using a MOACKS. I lubed one up generously and stuck it in my precision upper build that I've been working on. I mated it to a lower and tried cycling a round - immediately a failure to feed- I looked in to see the round only half-pulled from the mag. Every time I worked the charging handle I could hear a sort of "zipping" sound. Anyway, I continued trying to cycle rounds and it hung up on almost every single one. The bolt wouldn't always close forward, or would slam forward so weakly that it would jam up on a round or need to forward-assisted, like it was binding on something. So I tried another magazine - same thing. I worked the charging handle some more - re-inserted a mag, and it actually chambered a round. I repeated this process maybe 100 times until it actually cycled somewhat normally. I would still get the occasional stuck round or non-fully closed bolt. So I switched the BCG into a BCM middy - it seemed fine for the first few rounds and didn't make the zipping sound, but then started doing the same thing it was doing in my other upper. So I repeated the process until it was also about 99% - but that's my worry - Every once it in awhile it will repeat the same failure - usually catastrophically, and sometimes the forward assist is all I need to get the round to seat properly. For this reason, I don't know if I can trust these BCGs. I tried another and went through almost the same process. I've heard of BCG break in - but is this normal? Did Young send me whacked BCGs? Will I be OK after I put some rounds through them? Something is definitely out of spec.
Well hopefully this is a simple fix because now that you staked them young will not warranty them. Ill be watching this thread because I was going to order one.
I have the same bolt carrier in my Vltor upper w/ a Fail-Zero bolt, & I also had to break mine in to some degree. I found w/ judicious lube & about 100 rnds of 5.56 it settled in quite nicely. I hope you have the same luck..
Check your staking. It is quite likely that you have flared very slightly the side(s) of the carrier key. This is easily rectified with with a whetstone to knock the high points back down.
I bought a Young's during the last craze. Specifically it was a chromed M16 BCG. It was not the NM version.
I also used it in a precision upper. I was extremely tight at the beginning the first time I fired it it short stroked and did not even eject the spent case. For about 3 more rounds it short stroked and ejected the spent case but didn't feed a new round from the 20rd. PMag. I was using 77gr. .223 from Black Hills (not Mk262), so it was probably a week load to begin with.
I would say after 20 rounds it was perfect and never had another issue. Lots of lube helped the "break-in process).
I also ended up taking a Dremel tool, felt tips, and Flitz and polishing the shit out of the exterior of the carrier and bolt until it was shiny and smooth cycling.
That "zipping" sound you hear is from the small linear cuts from the lathing process I believe. Mine did that too at the beginning.
Oh, one last thing. I used a Go-No-Go gauge on mine and noticed the head spacing was very tight, but still within limits. You should check before you decide to fire a live round.
Check your staking. It is quite likely that you have flared very slightly the side(s) of the carrier key. This is easily rectified with with a whetstone to knock the high points back down.
You are the man... thank you... I was wondering the same thing and was thinking of taking a file to it but was scared since it's a new BCG and I didn't want to screw it up... I did as you suggested and it's now as smooth as butter...
I bought a Young's during the last craze. Specifically it was a chromed M16 BCG. It was not the NM version.
I also used it in a precision upper. I was extremely tight at the beginning the first time I fired it it short stroked and did not even eject the spent case. For about 3 more rounds it short stroked and ejected the spent case but didn't feed a new round from the 20rd. PMag. I was using 77gr. .223 from Black Hills (not Mk262), so it was probably a week load to begin with.
I would say after 20 rounds it was perfect and never had another issue. Lots of lube helped the "break-in process).
I also ended up taking a Dremel tool, felt tips, and Flitz and polishing the shit out of the exterior of the carrier and bolt until it was shiny and smooth cycling.
That "zipping" sound you hear is from the small linear cuts from the lathing process I believe. Mine did that too at the beginning.
Oh, one last thing. I used a Go-No-Go gauge on mine and noticed the head spacing was very tight, but still within limits. You should check before you decide to fire a live round.
Hmmmm... I think kmrtnsn hit the nail on the head - I just cycled the same 20 rounds through a GI 20 rounder about 300 times and it seems just fine now. I will buy a gauge before test firing - I've never done such a thing - I suppose I can find directions online? Any particular advantages to the Go-No-Go model??
You can use an unfired factory round as a rough gauge. If the headspacing is too tight, the bolt won't close on an unfired factory with just thumb pressure
Razorhunter
02-06-13, 01:19
Couple of questions regarding the Young carriers. First, I read that the owner of the company indeed states that he doesn't stake his carriers. So how does the chrome hold up after staking? I mean, does the chrome coating not begin to flake off the carrier key where the MOACKS deformed/burred the key? Just wondering if flaking occurs and possibly begins a domino affect
Second, what is different about the NM carrier as compared to the std M16 carrier?
Couple of questions regarding the Young carriers. First, I read that the owner of the company indeed states that he doesn't stake his carriers. So how does the chrome hold up after staking? I mean, does the chrome coating not begin to flake off the carrier key where the MOACKS deformed/butted the key? Just wondering if flaking occurs and possibly begins a domino affect
Second, what is different about the NM carrier as compared to the std M16 carrier?
I would like to know this as well. I was searching about the chrome flaking but could not find anything.
You may want to call Rainier concerning the possible flaking. I know they stake the Young BCGs in house before shipping them out.
-Jax
I've seen this too. The carriers seem to be ok once they've had a chance to break in.
You may want to call Rainier concerning the possible flaking. I know they stake the Young BCGs in house before shipping them out.
-Jax
I was about to suggest the same thing as I know they have dealt with staking the Young BCG and would probably have an idea if in fact flaking has occurred post staking.
You can use an unfired factory round as a rough gauge. If the headspacing is too tight, the bolt won't close on an unfired factory with just thumb pressure
Well the bolt definitely closes on a round with just thumb pressure.. May be a little tight...
Just wondering if flaking occurs and possibly begins a domino affect
Second, what is different about the NM carrier as compared to the std M16 carrier?
I've notice no flaking whatsoever - I was concerned as well, but I haven't seen any silver bits rubbing off into my upper... Pics of my staking job to come once I'm able to get some light in here... About the National Match thing? I have no idea... it sounds fancy though...
I've seen this too. The carriers seem to be ok once they've had a chance to break in.
They're definitely smoothing out - the whetstone made a noticeable difference so I believe a large portion of it was my gorilla staking job. I torqued down pretty hard and did indeed deform the metal a bit on the sides of gas key. I'm gonna hit it again here in a minute and see if I can smooth it out some more...
Hitting the chrome with a whetstone also has caused no noticeable damage to the finish... Whatever chroming process they use must be a good one...
Ned Christiansen
02-06-13, 09:17
Yes, sometimes some of the MOACKS'd material gets moved out beyond the width of the key. This should always be filed back down to flush. In a recent seance with Eugene Stoner, it was discovered that the step in the key at that point is there specifically to ease staking and prevent material from swaging out past the key width-- but keys come from many sources and in many subtly different configs-- so sometimes it happens. File it off-- although I'll be a lot of guys don't. This would put a groove in the upper in short order and that would be it. The groove could only get "so deep" and stop-- not ideal but no real harm done if the gun is a tool.
I've done a few of the Youngs and I don't recall the chrome flaking off. If you have to file the sides, your file would take the high spots off and then cut no more once it got down to the chrome surface.
Yes, sometimes some of the MOACKS'd material gets moved out beyond the width of the key. This should always be filed back down to flush. In a recent seance with Eugene Stoner, it was discovered that the step in the key at that point is there specifically to ease staking and prevent material from swaging out past the key width-- but keys come from many sources and in many subtly different configs-- so sometimes it happens. File it off-- although I'll be a lot of guys don't. This would put a groove in the upper in short order and that would be it. The groove could only get "so deep" and stop-- not ideal but no real harm done if the gun is a tool.
I've done a few of the Youngs and I don't recall the chrome flaking off. If you have to file the sides, your file would take the high spots off and then cut no more once it got down to the chrome surface.
Thanks for the insight Ned... Could extra material caused by staking at the top of the key also cause this?
Well the bolt definitely closes on a round with just thumb pressure.. May be a little tight...
Then you are good.
The type of chrome plating used in this application is specifically designed to not flake. It bonds to the parent material and adds surface hardness. It's the same with the chrome lining used in the bore of a barrel.
Look inside your upper receiver for wear marks. It will give you an idea which part, if any, of your BCG is dragging.
An earlier post suggested polishing the BCG. Remember, if you do, it will thin out the chrome plating and possibly remove it altogether in places
Then you are good.
Look inside your upper receiver for wear marks. It will give you an idea which part, if any, of your BCG is dragging.
Did this last night and could find no noticeable wear marks in either upper that I tried them in...
patrick sweeney
02-06-13, 14:49
I'm not worried even if a carrier so-treated flaked. I mean, just how much corrosion do you expect to happen there?
If you wanted it to stay pretty, you shouldn't have staked it.
If you stake it to make sure it stays secure, who cares if there is minor flaking? And once you file it flush, there's even more chrome gone.
Again, I'm not worried.
OK.. so I kept messing with it and I wasn't happy... it just didn't feel right... The whetstone was staking forever so I took out the mini-files and some fine grit sand paper.. I'm not done, but at least every seems OK now. I can half-ass the charging handle and it still chambers a round so that's fine by me. I know it's ugly as hell, and I have no idea how the sides got tweaked out like that since I follow directions to a tee.. Anyway, I Gun Scrubbered it after the quick file and sandpaper job, doused it in CLP and drop it in and it's smoother than a baby's bottom now. Is it OK or did I f*ck it up? It won't explode one me when I shoot it, will it?
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/shaofutzer/IMG_1224_zpse3815eb1.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/shaofutzer/IMG_1223_zps02d29a69.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/shaofutzer/IMG_1222_zps086e0495.jpg
Did you put in your upper and cycle it before you went to work on it?
You mean before I staked it? No... It seems to be happy now though...
You are allowed a practice run. If it bothers you, get another key. They are cheap and in abundance.
Ned Christiansen
02-11-13, 09:16
Your staking job looks better than a lot do from the factory (those that do it).... a little offcenter but that is not disastrous. I'd counter-stake the screw heads since they used 芳生螺絲是國際上最大與尺寸最齊全的內六角孔螺絲製造商 brand screws-- I really believe that as screws they are fine but they are rather roundy at the top of the head where we are trying to push steel down onto them. In the right combo of roundy-topped screws with indistinct knurling, you can have a decent-looking stake and actually still have no contact. This is why the arsenal print for the screw calls out a certain knurl and that it should go all the way to the top of the screw head, which is shown or called out as not having a big chamfer or radius there.
I find the HoloKrome brand screws (US-made) are a good choice. I don't know why so many manufacturers insist on using the Fang Sheng brand when ALL the US-made brands are easy to get and less than a dime a piece.
As to your question about metal displace upward, there's nothing up there for it to contact so it's not a problem.
Your staking job looks better than a lot do from the factory (those that do it).... a little offcenter but that is not disastrous. I'd counter-stake the screw heads since they used 芳生螺絲是國際上最大與尺寸最齊全的內六角孔螺絲製造商 brand screws-- I really believe that as screws they are fine but they are rather roundy at the top of the head where we are trying to push steel down onto them. In the right combo of roundy-topped screws with indistinct knurling, you can have a decent-looking stake and actually still have to contact. This is why the arsenal print for the screw calls out a certain knurl and that it should go all the way to the top of the screw head, which is shown or called out as not having a big chamfer or radius there.
I find the HoloKrome brand screws (US-made) are a good choice. I don't know why so many manufacturers insist on using the Fang Sheng brand when ALL the US-made brands are easy to get and less than a dime a piece.
As to your question about metal displace upward, there's nothing up there for it to contact so it's not a problem.
Ahh that's a relief. I feel better now. Suck about the screws though. If I would have known, maybe I could have tried to replace them before staking. Oh well, I'll run it like this for a bit and see how it goes. Thanks for the assistance and cool tool Mr. Christiansen!
Ned Christiansen
02-11-13, 09:47
Glad it worked for you. Which one was it?
I edited my last post, meant to say "have no contact".
patrick sweeney
02-11-13, 10:03
HoloKrome vs. Fang Sheng?
Accountants are trained to track every penny. MBAs are indoctrinated that if they simply manage the money, the company will prosper.
If the Fang Shengs cost a penny less per ton, it would be considered misfeasance in some CPA/MBA circles to buy anything else.
They are concerned with different things than we are.
If it holds, you are done. Shoot and have fun.
Glad it worked for you. Which one was it?
I edited my last post, meant to say "have no contact".
Plain MOACKS... The next BCGs I do, I'll be a little more careful. I highly recommend this tool for anyone who has an unstaked or improperly staked gas key. Good stuff!
Ned Christiansen
02-11-13, 20:59
You should be able on the next one to get the stakes well centered by putting an Allen wrench through on of the holes on top into either of the screw sockets..... that centers the tool for staking.
Razorhunter
02-11-13, 21:55
I've always wanted a MOACKS, just had other expenses that held priority instead, unfortunately. Would someone mind listing how the different MOACKS, and what the basic differences are? Or would that require too much typing? I need to decide which model would do the best staking job, and also need to discern the different features. If anyone cares to explain. If not, I'll try to find time to research it on Meds site at some point. *
You should be able on the next one to get the stakes well centered by putting an Allen wrench through on of the holes on top into either of the screw sockets..... that centers the tool for staking.
That's the funny thing - I swear I lined it up perfectly and was sure to use the proper sized allen wrench to ensure that it was seated in and unable to move in the jig. Both gas keys came out slightly off centered, both in the same way - could it be an out of spec gas key or carrier a mm or two off???
The_Hammer_Man
02-12-13, 02:09
That's the funny thing - I swear I lined it up perfectly and was sure to use the proper sized allen wrench to ensure that it was seated in and unable to move in the jig. Both gas keys came out slightly off centered, both in the same way - could it be an out of spec gas key or carrier a mm or two off???
I have the same tool and have had similar issues when I first got it.
No it's not the key.. it's the tool and how it works. It "spins" and while spinning into the material to stake it will drift in the direction of the spin.
For example, if you try to drill into a piece of steel w/o center punching first your hole will be either off center or, irregular in shape.
Might try bracing the tool differently. Or, center punch the key,this is what I do personally sometimes, before you "go to town" on it.
I have the same tool and have had similar issues when I first got it.
No it's not the key.. it's the tool and how it works. It "spins" and while spinning into the material to stake it will drift in the direction of the spin.
For example, if you try to drill into a piece of steel w/o center punching first your hole will be either off center or, irregular in shape.
Might try bracing the tool differently. Or, center punch the key,this is what I do personally sometimes, before you "go to town" on it.
Thanks for the tip... Do you think moving around to each staking point, gradually tightening more as I go around would help? I did kinda seat them in there and let one rip at a time so I see how that could have accomplished what you're talking about.
Ned Christiansen
02-12-13, 07:56
Well all the current versions of the MOACKS have a locating feature that should get you right there. There are two locator holes on the top-- they are different sizes-- since there are different screw socket sizes depending on whether or not your screws are made to the mil-spec print. The print calls for a 1/8" socket whereas an off-the-shelf industry standard 8-32X 1/4 socket head cap screw uses 9/64. So, each MOACKS comes with one each of these wrenches.
So the idea is, if you have 9/64 sockets, you locate the tool onto the carrier by putting the 9/64 Allen wrench through the larger of the two holes on top of the tool (it would not pass through the smaller one. So thought that hole it goes and into the socket-- this precisely locates the tool.
Now if a guy had 9/64 sockets and used the smaller 1/8" Allen wrench in the larger locator hole-- you could get some misalignment.
Then on the Pocket MOACKS and MOACKS II, these tools have the capability of counter-staking the screw itself. In other words another staking screw comes down from the top and displaces screw head material outward so that it's virtually impossible for the outwardly-displaced screw head metal to get by the inwardly-displaced carrier key metal. Good insurance especially if you've got the roundy-topped carrier key screws with little or no knurl towards the top.
In the case of these two tools, you locate it similarly for counter-staking. thing is, once you've counter-staked the first one, some metal usually gets displaced into the socket as well, so a wrench will no longer drop into it. So the wrenches provided with the Pocket MOACKS and MOACKS II have, at the end of the long leg, a little material ground off. So-- for the first counterstake, locate the tool with the appropriate wrench's short leg (1/8 or 9/64 depending on your screws). To counterstake the second screw you will be locating in the just-counterstaked screw's socket, which is now probably not going to fit the wrench anymore, so you use the long end of the wrench that has had a little metal removed so that it will drop into the socket.
I promise you it's a lot simpler and more intuitive than it sounds! It must be, because in all the MOACKS I've sold over the years, I never had anyone call and say they couldn't figure out how to use it or could not understand the provided instructions.
And then if you need to do, say, 900 carriers an hour there's always the HydroMOACKS:
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/102HydroMO.jpg
Ned, a picture is worth a thousand words, though in this case I think we need more information and more pictures.
The_Hammer_Man
02-12-13, 13:33
Tool Porn... We needz mo tool porn :)
I don't know how other smiths do their staking... do one completely then move or a little bit on each like tightening a tire.
I've used both methods in the past.
Now do yourself a favor and put Ned on your list of knowledge sources. He did create the tool ya know.
With that said.. I have at least four staking tools of differing sizes and manufacture in my tool drawer. Which one do I use the most?
Ned's... because it gives me the most consistent results with the least time/effort spent.
Ned Christiansen
02-12-13, 22:01
Thanks, H. Man.
That's a tool I made 3 years ago for one of the mfgrs. of carriers. It is still in daily use: put two carriers in, hit the two big red buttons, ka-chunk, take them out. Put two carriers in.....
I have a few more pics but they are buried pretty deep. If I run across them I'll post them.
The_Hammer_Man
02-13-13, 06:39
Thanks, H. Man.
That's a tool I made 3 years ago for one of the mfgrs. of carriers. It is still in daily use: put two carriers in, hit the two big red buttons, ka-chunk, take them out. Put two carriers in.....
I have a few more pics but they are buried pretty deep. If I run across them I'll post them.
My friends laugh at me because my shop head doesn't have girly mags in it for "educational purposes" but, tool porn.. lots of that.
Tool catalogs. Stacks of them. My wife makes me clear them out when mice start making nests in them.
BTW. I took an old BM (unstaked) BC and tried out the " you used too small of an allen wrench" thing.
You were right, it did cause the alignment to be off and allowed the tool to torque a bit. Heh, guess I've been doing it right.
Nicklesworth
02-15-13, 18:21
You can use an unfired factory round as a rough gauge. If the headspacing is too tight, the bolt won't close on an unfired factory with just thumb pressure
Would you please help explain this rule-of-thumb a little more for me? I just assembled my first AR using a YM BCG and a BCM barrel. Should be high quality components. Just checking basic operation using some snap-caps. Being this is my first AR, I haven't developed a sense of "seems right" yet...
If I ride the slide forward to chamber the snap cap from the magazine, the bolt doesn't fully close (didn't expect it to). To get the bolt to close, I have to apply some pretty decent thumb pressure with my arm behind it on the forward assist to get it to close. It does close though. Is this what you mean by thumb pressure? Or are you talking about applying thumb pressure somewhere else (like the back of the BCG with the receivers separated)?
Admittedly - I literally just lubed the BCG and installed it for the first time, trying this only a few times. Maybe I need to give it a few more cycles before getting concerned...
Thanks in advance.
UPDATE: I'm thinking I'm just finding that my extractor is a bit stiff. The above happens when trying to slowly chamber the first round, and it's just tough to get the bolt to slip over the cartridge by hand. Once it's seated in the bolt, if I do a press-check, it only takes a little thumb pressure to re-seat the bolt. I'm figuring the extractor should loosen up a bit once I get some rounds through it.
patrick sweeney
02-19-13, 09:35
I don't want to get too fussy here, but this doesn't really tell you anything.
If the headspace is short enough that the bolt absolutely won't close, then it tells you that your headspace is too short.
Anything else, it tells you nothing. The amount of force needed to compress the ejector, and to make the extractor pivot and snap over the rim, is enough force to muddy the waters (or confuse your thumb) as to what is going on.
We've wandered far afield of the original question, but the answer here is simple: if you want to know what your headspace is, you need either standard headspace gages and strip the bolt, or the gages with recesses cut to clear the parts involved.
Anything else is guesswork.
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