View Full Version : Conspiracy-theorists harassing Aurora and Newtown survivors...
Most of the theories involve fantasies about connections with LIBOR and mind-control with the intent to create new gun laws.
Sound familiar? These people are in our midst right now, and it's time for the firearms community to start ostracizing them. We will continue to be painted as lunatics and nut-jobs until it's not true anymore. To a disturbing degree, these charges really are true, and it's our job not to ignore this.
I contend that as a community we should start making it embarrassing, shameful, and socially-disadvantageous to assert things of a conspiratorial nature without evidence.
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/the_worst_sandy_hook_conspiracy_theory_yet/
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/aurora-theater-shooting-victims-harassed-conspiracy-theorists-162623463.html
I don't agree with the harassing of survivors and pretty much feel like its just plane idiotic and offensive. I also don't agree with censorship. We are either free to express our opinions or we are not. Everyone expresses opinions every day, hell the mainstream media makes more $$ based on factless conjecture in a day than most tin foil hatters make in a life time. Should we ban their ability publish their opinions?
Sounds like a lot of the GD area nowadays.
I don't agree with the harassing of survivors and pretty much feel like its just plane idiotic and offensive. I also don't agree with censorship. We are either free to express our opinions or we are not. Everyone expresses opinions every day, hell the mainstream media makes more $$ based on factless conjecture in a day than most tin foil hatters make in a life time. Should we ban their ability publish their opinions?
Visibly and intentionally countering bad ideas with better ideas is not censorship. It's an extension of free speech. People are free to have crazy opinions, and I'm free to point out that they're crazy. I'm simply arguing that we need to do more of this -- deliberately and loudly.
I contend that as a community we should start making it embarrassing, shameful, and socially-disadvantageous to assert things of a conspiratorial nature without evidence.
This to me sounded like a plan to embarrass and socially stigmatize people who express conspiracy theories. While that may not be censorship per se, its still a tactic to oppress someones ability to freely express an opinion. Kind of like cyber bullying.
Most conspiracy theories have little evidence. If they had hard factual evidence would they belong in the realm of conspiracy theory?
I have no problem with calling people on BS behavior that is offensive or harassing or just plane bad taste. I however have no issue with people politely expressing an opinion no matter how far fetched it may be. I may choose to not participate in discussions related to alien anal probing, but I got no issues with people being able to do so. So long as they are polite, and considerate of others.
theblackknight
02-07-13, 14:13
I usually take every chance to tell these people how horrible they are.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
I don't agree with the harassing of survivors and pretty much feel like its just plane idiotic and offensive. I also don't agree with censorship. We are either free to express our opinions or we are not. Everyone expresses opinions every day, hell the mainstream media makes more $$ based on factless conjecture in a day than most tin foil hatters make in a life time. Should we ban their ability publish their opinions?
I don't think that he's saying we should ban their ability to publish their opinions, but instead make them want to keep their stupid ideas quiet in the first place.
You see many people on the pro gun side grasping at anything and everything that in some way supports their side. Instead of paying these conspiracy theorists and lunatics homage through the reposting and discussion of their theories because this week they seem to support the side of the argument that we're on... when someone throws out stupidity and nonsense to accuse someone or some organization of being "bad" without evidence - it should be summarily identified as such and shot down.
Yes, alot of money has been made and some huge impacts have occurred because of the unfounded accusations of idiots over time - but that's not the way we should as a society have a discussion or argument. Unfortunately, every time somebody "Likes" one of these idiots on Facebook, because this week they say something that sounds like it could in some way be turned to support our position, we're hurting ourselves by 1) fueling the fire and 2) supporting an idiot who is pretty much guaranteed down the road to say something so stupid and outrageous that it then calls into question the sanity of anyone ever associated with them.
I usually take every chance to tell these people how horrible they are.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Really? Can you expand on that?
I don't think that he's saying we should ban their ability to publish their opinions, but instead make them want to keep their stupid ideas quiet in the first place.
You see many people on the pro gun side grasping at anything and everything that in some way supports their side. Instead of paying these conspiracy theorists and lunatics homage through the reposting and discussion of their theories because this week they seem to support the side of the argument that we're on... when someone throws out stupidity and nonsense to accuse someone or some organization of being "bad" without evidence - it should be summarily identified as such and shot down.
Yes, alot of money has been made and some huge impacts have occurred because of the unfounded accusations of idiots over time - but that's not the way we should as a society have a discussion or argument. Unfortunately, every time somebody "Likes" one of these idiots on Facebook, because this week they say something that sounds like it could in some way be turned to support our position, we're hurting ourselves by 1) fueling the fire and 2) supporting an idiot who is pretty much guaranteed down the road to say something so stupid and outrageous that it then calls into question the sanity of anyone ever associated with them.
Yes, exactly this.
The end-game (for us and the society at large) is not mere toleration. It is reason. It is pushing for people to express cogent reasons for why they believe certain things. What I'm arguing for is a kind of conversational intolerance (but not a structural suppression of speech).
If someone is thinking about expressing an extreme conspiracy in the presence of firearms community members without backing it up by well thought out and well prepared evidence, I want that person to feel apprehension and worry about how he'll be received instead of care-free to spew whatever nonsense is fermenting in his brain. The only way to make that happen is to demand good reasons for people's beliefs about their theories.
If they want to use the death of their children in the public spotlight, they are submitting themselves to scrutiny. Conspiracy theory or not, if you want to grieve in private than keep it in private. Don't get up on a soap box.
If they want to use the death of their children in the public spotlight, they are submitting themselves to scrutiny. Conspiracy theory or not, if you want to grieve in private than keep it in private. Don't get up on a soap box.
So you see nothing wrong with accusing a grieving parent of lying because their children aren't really dead and they're taking part in some secret government operation to take our guns? Nothing about that strikes you as wrong, or even in bad taste? How about just plain stupid?
I'm not thrilled that some of the parents are going on anti-gun rants either. But there are certainly right and wrong ways to respond. Saying that their kids aren't really dead can't be one of them. I don't want to take away anyone's right to say this; I just want to make it embarrassing for them.
I don't think that he's saying we should ban their ability to publish their opinions, but instead make them want to keep their stupid ideas quiet in the first place.
GEE, isn't that the SAME as SUPPRESSION OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH? Should we make you or anyone else keep what someone might think as their Stupid Ideas To Themselves Too?
So you see nothing wrong with accusing a grieving parent of lying because their children aren't really dead and they're taking part in some secret government operation to take our guns? Nothing about that strikes you as wrong, or even in bad taste? How about just plain stupid?
Sure it is. Wrong, bad taste, all of that. It's also wrong and in bad taste to use your dead children to make your soap box a little higher.
None of that matters anyway. They brought themselves into the public light, and now the public is demanding answers. Pretty simple situation, I think. Doesn't much matter if it's rude or not.
Edited to include your edit!:
I'm not thrilled that some of the parents are going on anti-gun rants either. But there are certainly right and wrong ways to respond. Saying that their kids aren't really dead can't be one of them. I don't want to take away anyone's right to say this; I just want to make it embarrassing for them.
That is the point, isn't it? They are not just grieving parents trying their best to make it through this tragedy. They are trying to force their outlook on the rest of the country. This is not a bunch of mean, cold-hearted Conspiracy Theorists tormenting the innocent grieving family. They wanted it public, and this is how the public responds. Turnabout is fair play- They can't hide behind dead kids just because people are disagreeing with them.
GEE, isn't that the SAME as SUPPRESSION OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH? Should we make you or anyone else keep what someone might think as their Stupid Ideas To Themselves Too?
Not at all. If you go into a job interview or a first date and you say that you think Elvis is still alive and you worship him, you're going to pay a social price. People are going to laugh at you and tell you you're wrong. This is a good thing, and there's good reason for it. You're probably not a sane or safe person if you truly believe Elvis is still alive. You're not the kind of person I want to associate with.
All I'm saying is that when people say things like "the government ordered Newtown or Aurora," we should openly ridicule this in just the same way.
They're still allowed to say it obviously, but I'm free to express incredulity and ridicule toward them. The gun community ought to use that freedom to criticize the conspiracy-theorists among us.
That is the point, isn't it? They are not just grieving parents trying their best to make it through this tragedy. They are trying to force their outlook on the rest of the country. This is not a bunch of mean, cold-hearted Conspiracy Theorists tormenting the innocent grieving family. They wanted it public, and this is how the public responds. Turnabout is fair play- They can't hide behind dead kids just because people are disagreeing with them.
All I'm saying is that we, as gun-owners, have AGENCY and influence in determining what the response to them looks like, when the responses are coming out of people who claim to be members of our community or represent gun-owners.
Allowing people to suggest things like "your kids aren't really dead" without criticizing them is not good for us or anyone. It is a completely ineffective response in terms of our goals. We ought to be making it clear that they do not represent us as a whole by criticizing them wherever their influence arises.
Same for the people here who believe in all manner of unsupported conspiracy theories.
Not at all. If you go into a job interview or a first date and you say that you think Elvis is still alive and you worship him, you're going to pay a social price. People are going to laugh at you and tell you you're wrong. This is a good thing, and there's good reason for it. You're probably not a sane or safe person if you truly believe Elvis is still alive. You're not the kind of person I want to associate with.
All I'm saying is that when people say things like "the government ordered Newtown or Aurora," we should openly ridicule this in just the same way.
They're still allowed to say it obviously, but I'm free to express incredulity and ridicule toward them. The gun community ought to use that freedom to criticize the conspiracy-theorists among us.
So are you the judge as to what people should say? All because of what other people might think? REMEMBER: If you want someone to respect your rights, then you HAVE to respect theirs. Otherwise, it turns into a dictatorship, right or wrong.
We ALL have the right to disagree, but do we have the right to tell someone we don't agree with to STFU and sit down?
So are you the judge as to what people should say? All because of what other people might think? REMEMBER: If you want someone to respect your rights, then you HAVE to respect theirs. Otherwise, it turns into a dictatorship, right or wrong.
We ALL have the right to disagree, but do we have the right to tell someone we don't agree with to STFU and sit down?
I don't think the message is coming across properly, for whatever reason. I'm a free speech absolutist. In other words, I think that there should be no limits on free speech whatsoever. This is a rather extreme position, so you have to imagine how strange it is to be accused of being anti-free-speech. I'm arguing that "calling free-speech" cannot be used as a shield for avoiding criticism. That move, which many attempt to make, is actually what is anti-free-speech.
Anyway, you seem to be arguing that because we all have free speech, we are forced to respect each other's opinions. That's a complete non-sequitur. I'm simply suggesting that people be more vocal in using their own free speech to oppose the idiotic ideas of others.
I would never step on the rights of those others to speak in the first place. I'm saying that just because you speak, I don't have to respect your opinion. And you should fully expect to hear my opinion loudly and in crystal clear terms if you suggest something as insane as "the government ordered the killings at Newtown." So to that person I say: You can continue expressing that opinion if you like, but I'm going to loudly and publicly disagree with you. And I think everyone else should do the same.
Now, if that person has good evidence for their claim, I'm all ears. But it's not enough to just make bald assertions or assertions based on bad evidence or a stupid interpretation of evidence and expect not to be laughed at.
Again, this is what free speech is about in the first place. It can't be used as a shield to avoid criticism. Now THAT'S anti-free-speech.
ETA: The above isn't about this forum's particular rules (ie, respecting other members, etc). I'm speaking generally.
NCPatrolAR
02-07-13, 15:25
The conspiracy theory BS is just as tiresome now as it was back in the mid-90s when it was at similar levels. If people would spend a minute or two actually thinking about what they are about to copy and paste; they would realize how asinine the "theory" is.
GEE, isn't that the SAME as SUPPRESSION OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH? Should we make you or anyone else keep what someone might think as their Stupid Ideas To Themselves Too?
No.
I don't think that he's saying we should ban their ability to publish their opinions
I'm not saying people shouldn't express their opinion.
I'm saying that not all opinions are worth listening to, and we as the shooter community have a duty to make it known that we support freedom of speech, but do not support unsupported accusations of wrongdoing.
TacticalSledgehammer
02-07-13, 18:34
I don't agree with harassing the grieving families at all. I'm not 100% sold on the sandy hook tragedy though. I've never seen a news story change so much in 48 hours as this one did (2 pistols and an AR, then only 4 pistols, the back to 2 pistols and an AR among other things). I've never bought into the conspiracy theorists in the past. It's easy to see how their theories catch traction after you've watched the grieving parents cutting up off camera, then immediately getting sad when it goes "on air."
At this point I don't really know what to believe. No matter which side you're on (or if you're clueless like me) I can't ever imagine harassing grieving parents about their dead child. Some folks need to just stay busy with their idle time.
Wow. "They are in our midst right now" you say. Sounds like something you heard on FauxNews. Quite laughable. Sorry but it is pretty obvious there was more to Sandy Hook than meets the eye. What happened to the guy in tactical gear carrying weapons running through the woods that the police apprehended? Oh wait, Snopes.com reported that he was an "off duty tactical police officer" just strolling through the woods at that time so it must be true. "Off duty tactical officer" is an oxymoron. This makes no sense.
Why have they not released any footage since they had supposedly just installed some super high tech surveillance system weeks prior to this?
Keep telling yourself your government loves and cares about you but it'll never be true. You can link to liberal sites like Salon.com all you want but it makes no difference. People ARE waking up whether YOU like it or not. These news stories demonizing "conspiracy theorists" are laughable. They do not even cover the actual evidence in many of these theories and often pick up on the looniest and least popular theory of all to discredit all the others that DO have supporting evidence.
Let me guess, you still think 9/11 was setup and pulled off by a dozen or so scary muslims with box cutters and fake bombs who "hate our freedoms"? The same muslims who were known to be cokehead losers hanging out at the strip club every night, you mean? Those ones?
Neo-cons these days are no better than the liberal scum they claim to be against... Possibly worse because you turn on your own just to try and impress the left wing liberals. Guess what? They don't care if you believe a "conspiracy theory" or not -- they hate you just the same and will group us all together REGARDLESS.
For ****'s sake, turn the TV off and wake up. Just because you heard something repeated on TV does not make it true - in fact it makes it far less likely to be true. What you people fail to realize is many of these supposed "conspiracy theorists" have actually done 10x the research that you've done on these subjects and are far more qualified to speak about it than any FauxNews watching, McCain voting Neo-Con. In my eyes, you're right there along side Obama raping the very country we live in.
Agree 100%
Most of the theories involve fantasies about connections with LIBOR and mind-control with the intent to create new gun laws.
Sound familiar? These people are in our midst right now, and it's time for the firearms community to start ostracizing them. We will continue to be painted as lunatics and nut-jobs until it's not true anymore. To a disturbing degree, these charges really are true, and it's our job not to ignore this.
I contend that as a community we should start making it embarrassing, shameful, and socially-disadvantageous to assert things of a conspiratorial nature without evidence.
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/the_worst_sandy_hook_conspiracy_theory_yet/
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/aurora-theater-shooting-victims-harassed-conspiracy-theorists-162623463.html
Dude, turn the ****ing internet off.
Wow. "They are in our midst right now" you say. Sounds like something you heard on FauxNews. Quite laughable. Sorry but it is pretty obvious there was more to Sandy Hook than meets the eye. What happened to the guy in tactical gear carrying weapons running through the woods that the police apprehended? Oh wait, Snopes.com reported that he was an "off duty tactical police officer" just strolling through the woods at that time so it must be true. "Off duty tactical officer" is an oxymoron. This makes no sense.
Why have they not released any footage since they had supposedly just installed some super high tech surveillance system weeks prior to this?
Keep telling yourself your government loves and cares about you but it'll never be true. You can link to liberal sites like Salon.com all you want but it makes no difference. People ARE waking up whether YOU like it or not. These news stories demonizing "conspiracy theorists" are laughable. They do not even cover the actual evidence in many of these theories and often pick up on the looniest and least popular theory of all to discredit all the others that DO have supporting evidence.
Let me guess, you still think 9/11 was setup and pulled off by a dozen or so scary muslims with box cutters and fake bombs who "hate our freedoms"? The same muslims who were known to be cokehead losers hanging out at the strip club every night, you mean? Those ones?
Neo-cons these days are no better than the liberal scum they claim to be against... Possibly worse because you turn on your own just to try and impress the left wing liberals. Guess what? They don't care if you believe a "conspiracy theory" or not -- they hate you just the same and will group us all together REGARDLESS.
For ****'s sake, turn the TV off and wake up. Just because you heard something repeated on TV does not make it true - in fact it makes it far less likely to be true. What you people fail to realize is many of these supposed "conspiracy theorists" have actually done 10x the research that you've done on these subjects and are far more qualified to speak about it than any FauxNews watching, McCain voting Neo-Con. In my eyes, you're right there along side Obama raping the very country we live in.
Dude, turn the ****ing internet off.
You're right! FauxNews and CNN are the only true sources of information and would never deceive us Americans! They only release Christmas cards of foxes playing a game of chess with sheep replacing the pawns for no apparent reason. You're right. Stupid me.
Edit: Also, it's funny when people cannot answer any of the questions raised so instead they resort to insulting and name calling. I understand you still believe in the "American dream" living a middle class life, white picket fence, etc. Don't wanna burst that bubble, now do we? Proceed.
TacticalSledgehammer
02-07-13, 21:08
You get two different stories about the same thing from those two.
Visibly and intentionally countering bad ideas with better ideas is not censorship. It's an extension of free speech. People are free to have crazy opinions, and I'm free to point out that they're crazy. I'm simply arguing that we need to do more of this -- deliberately and loudly.
I agree, but not because I think it is good for the "community" but because it is the right thing to do. What we do positive does not matter, we're going to be painted the way the MSM wants us to be painted no mater what.
I contend that as a community we should start making it embarrassing, shameful, and socially-disadvantageous to assert things of a conspiratorial nature without evidence.
Absolutely 110% with you on this. Fortunately the problem does seem to have subsided here a bit for now, but we'll see.
Ask a question relating to something based in fact with some evidence to back it up and you might be able to engage someone in a adult converstion.
I didn't resort to name calling, you and those who give creedence to every one of these theories that pop up on youtube are the first to label people as "SHEEP" who don't believe your baseless, evidenceless bullshit.
Let me ask you this question...Are you claiming that hundreds of first reponders from dozens of different agencies (Local, state police, paramedics, firefighters, etc.) all conspired to have a bunch of innocent little children murdered to push for new gun laws? Because that is the only way this conspiracy makes any sense and could be pulled off.
You're right! FauxNews and CNN are the only true sources of information and would never deceive us Americans! They only release Christmas cards of foxes playing a game of chess with sheep replacing the pawns for no apparent reason. You're right. Stupid me.
Edit: Also, it's funny when people cannot answer any of the questions raised so instead they resort to insulting and name calling. I understand you still believe in the "American dream" living a middle class life, white picket fence, etc. Don't wanna burst that bubble, now do we? Proceed.
REMEMBER: If you want someone to respect your rights, then you HAVE to respect theirs. Otherwise, it turns into a dictatorship, right or wrong.
Wrong.
Nobody has to respect a damned thing.
We may, under certain circumstances, have to tolerate their right to it. There's a telling difference between tolerance and respect, despite the efforts of liberal ideologues to make them synonyms.
Tolerance is putting up with something because you must, perhaps even under duress, and even if you feel the need to shower afterward. I tolerate fools that think age automatically brings wisdom, when all it does by itself is take a long damned time.....
RESPECT is a specific feeling of regard. I respect my father.
Quashing conspiracy theorists, specifically within the idiom of the OP isn't suppressing anybody's freedoms. It's checkin' fools.
They have ample venues in which their addlepated BS will flourish and bloom, and the idea that the families of the victims MUST give them an opportunity to air grievances on the basis of 1) constitutional requirement and 2) a gross misconception of respect, is simply asinine.
Wow. "They are in our midst right now" you say. Sounds like something you heard on FauxNews. Quite laughable. Sorry but it is pretty obvious there was more to Sandy Hook than meets the eye. What happened to the guy in tactical gear carrying weapons running through the woods that the police apprehended? Oh wait, Snopes.com reported that he was an "off duty tactical police officer" just strolling through the woods at that time so it must be true. "Off duty tactical officer" is an oxymoron. This makes no sense.
Why have they not released any footage since they had supposedly just installed some super high tech surveillance system weeks prior to this?
Keep telling yourself your government loves and cares about you but it'll never be true. You can link to liberal sites like Salon.com all you want but it makes no difference. People ARE waking up whether YOU like it or not. These news stories demonizing "conspiracy theorists" are laughable. They do not even cover the actual evidence in many of these theories and often pick up on the looniest and least popular theory of all to discredit all the others that DO have supporting evidence.
Let me guess, you still think 9/11 was setup and pulled off by a dozen or so scary muslims with box cutters and fake bombs who "hate our freedoms"? The same muslims who were known to be cokehead losers hanging out at the strip club every night, you mean? Those ones?
Neo-cons these days are no better than the liberal scum they claim to be against... Possibly worse because you turn on your own just to try and impress the left wing liberals. Guess what? They don't care if you believe a "conspiracy theory" or not -- they hate you just the same and will group us all together REGARDLESS.
For ****'s sake, turn the TV off and wake up. Just because you heard something repeated on TV does not make it true - in fact it makes it far less likely to be true. What you people fail to realize is many of these supposed "conspiracy theorists" have actually done 10x the research that you've done on these subjects and are far more qualified to speak about it than any FauxNews watching, McCain voting Neo-Con. In my eyes, you're right there along side Obama raping the very country we live in.
I recommend this book if you want to truly understand the psychology of the 9/11 highjackers. It remains the best and most intellectually honest look into their minds, IMO:
http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Soldiers-Hijackers-They-Were/dp/B00375LNG0
As for your assertions about 9/11 and Newtown being a hoax, please support your claims with evidence and remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
brushy bill
02-07-13, 22:09
This to me sounded like a plan to embarrass and socially stigmatize people who express conspiracy theories. While that may not be censorship per se, its still a tactic to oppress someones ability to freely express an opinion. Kind of like cyber bullying.
I however have no issue with people politely expressing an opinion no matter how far fetched it may be. I may choose to not participate in discussions related to alien anal probing, but I got no issues with people being able to do so. So long as they are polite, and considerate of others.
Agreed...I never understood the cyber bullying thing though. Might be unique to the modern generation who never experineced life before the internet. I generally take cyber bullys as those too cowardly to say what they type to folks directly, so they hide behind a keyboard. They would never get by with some of it face to face and wouldn't try, but the internet emboldens them.
theblackknight
02-08-13, 01:09
Really? Can you expand on that?
Read post 21. These people are idiots.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
The conspiracy theory BS is just as tiresome now as it was back in the mid-90s when it was at similar levels. If people would spend a minute or two actually thinking about what they are about to copy and paste; they would realize how asinine the "theory" is.
The problem is recorded history and declassified documents proven conspiracy theories of the past are sometimes true. This only serves to make people generally "more distrustful" of a government they already have several misgivings about and if a situation isn't cut, dry and obvious people will sometimes look at it sideways.
Now this doesn't mean conspiracy theories are always true, party true or even have a grain of truth at all. But as a result of the things we've seen we tend to read with an eye out for the hidden agenda and look for the real story hidden within the story, especially when all the facts don't seem to add up.
Also every conspiracy theory isn't the same.
The government conspiracy at Ruby Ridge for example is well documented. Ironically it was one part of the government (the FBI) who figured out that other parts of the government (US Marshall's) had falsified reports regarding shootings and other subsequent government investigations concluded that the ROE used by the FBI at Ruby Ridge were actually illegal.
There is lot's of bone a fide conspiracies at work from all sides of that incident. But that doesn't mean George Bush and Israel convinced a bunch of Saudi's to fly planes into the WTC, nor does it mean there are aliens and alien spacecraft at Area 51.
And certainly before you go demanding answers from a family who just lost their children in a horrible tragedy, you better be damn right about those people still being alive or you richly deserve the ass kicking you should be getting.
Let me guess, you still think 9/11 was setup and pulled off by a dozen or so scary muslims with box cutters and fake bombs who "hate our freedoms"? The same muslims who were known to be cokehead losers hanging out at the strip club every night, you mean? Those ones?
Is it your assertion that George Bush pulled off the most elaborate and successful conspiracy in the history of humanity? That he masterminded the entire thing so artfully that he convinced those cokehead muslims to fly to their death by duping them?
And that the entire thing was orchestrated so well that NOBODY is willing to try and expose him. Not a single journalist in the world us willing to break the greatest story ever, one which would make Watergate look like a jaywalking case, because they all fear the same man they generally deride as a "D student"?
And you believe that he has not only cowed the media, but every other member of government as well who either must be "in on it" or too afraid to challenge anyone involved.
Read post 21. These people are idiots.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
No, that's not what I meant. You claimed earlier that you are always telling conspirists how horrible they are, yet I don't recall seeing this here. In fact for a while there were far too few of us speaking out against them and everytime someone else did I made sure to appreciate it (as some of them know).
But I don't read every thread and may have missed something so forget it. Most important thing is that a lid has been placed on their pot.
theblackknight
02-08-13, 19:56
No, that's not what I meant. You claimed earlier that you are always telling conspirists how horrible they are, yet I don't recall seeing this here. In fact for a while there were far too few of us speaking out against them and everytime someone else did I made sure to appreciate it (as some of them know).
But I don't read every thread and may have missed something so forget it. Most important thing is that a lid has been placed on their pot.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=123341
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=123304
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=120977&page=3
The conspiracy theorists should leave grieving people alone. Nothing more needs to be said.
MountainRaven
02-08-13, 23:32
Is it your assertion that George Bush pulled off the most elaborate and successful conspiracy in the history of humanity? That he masterminded the entire thing so artfully that he convinced those cokehead muslims to fly to their death by duping them?
And that the entire thing was orchestrated so well that NOBODY is willing to try and expose him. Not a single journalist in the world us willing to break the greatest story ever, one which would make Watergate look like a jaywalking case, because they all fear the same man they generally deride as a "D student"?
And you believe that he has not only cowed the media, but every other member of government as well who either must be "in on it" or too afraid to challenge anyone involved.
It's been a while since I've shared this one, but it seems appropriate:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/Jagdraben/911conspiracy.gif
I've watched some of the conspiracy videos and some of them might be out there, some of them do make you think.
Not everything is black and white here.
I don't know if this is relative to this discussion but a few years ago I had to help at my kid's post prom at school. There was a hypnotist there who hypnotized some kids and made them do some funny stuff. However, one time they were told that they were James Bond and as soon as they heard the Bond theme music they were to act like a spy.
One girl who was not very athletic started running toward the back of the gym and jumped and slid over a table and did a roll and stood up acting like she had a gun. I was completely in shock. All of this because she was hypnotized.
Not trying to say that this happened but hypnotizing someone can really make them do stuff they probably couldn't otherwise.
Meh,
I'm more of a live and let live kind of person.
There's a place for everyone in the natural order. People who don't believe a single thing the authorities tell them are an important part of that order.
VooDoo6Actual
02-09-13, 07:59
Cult of Personality vs. Autonomy
Black Swan Theory or Theory of Black Swan Events
Cult of Personality vs. Autonomy
Black Swan Theory or Theory of Black Swan Events
Sorry, I'm not tracking.
Isn't the second line the same two things?
Love to hear more on this.
Cagemonkey
02-09-13, 09:50
Sorry, I'm not tracking.
Isn't the second line the same two things?
Love to hear more on this.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
I know what all of the theories mean, but isn't the second line comparing two of the same thing?
Also didn't follow the cult of personality reference. In regards to the topic at hand. I understand the term and its origin, but don't see the application in these events.
Cult of Personality vs. Autonomy
Black Swan Theory or Theory of Black Swan Events
By all means, be autonomous. But when you come forward with your theories, you should be expected to be able to provide evidence. As a matter of history, your usual modus operandi has been to make cryptic assertions, then call anyone who either doesn't understand or agree an idiot. Long, content-free diatribes full of irrelevant acronyms about how stupid other people are do not constitute evidence. Expecting extraordinary claims to be accompanied by extraordinary evidence is not a "cult of personality," it's called being rational, reasonable human beings. If your theories really are true as you think they are, you should be on board with this.
Also, Black Swan Theory is bunk, if you ask me. At the level of the macro-world -- that is to say, not at the quantum level -- every event has a cause. Every state of affairs develops from a previous state of affairs based on causes and effects. If one had perfect information and perfect computational power, you could trace events and their causes and effects back as far as you wanted.
When we fail to see a causal chain leading to an unexpected event, but that event happens, we instantly become aware of which antecedent conditions to look for in explaining how that event developed and occurred.
There is no reason to believe that we're under some severe delusion when this happens. 9/11, Newtown, WWI, the rise of the internet, the fall of the USSR, and all other events commonly called Black Swan Events are perfectly intelligible in light of the more complete information that comes with investigation in hindsight. The impact of "Black Swan Events" on history is not the part of the theory I disagree with, but the notion that we falsely rationalize them because we're fooling ourselves about the intelligibility of antecedent conditions has no point of contact with reality.
Further, to posit an even more complex and malevolent plot as an explanatory theory of already extremely complex events is fallacious thinking. Invoking complexity to explain complexity has no utility unless you can explain the initial complex cause itself. This is the death knell of the vast majority of conspiracy theories. If they're ever right -- and they sometimes are -- they're right by accident.
Sorry, I'm not tracking.
Isn't the second line the same two things?
Love to hear more on this.
I honestly like the referred poster, but no, you do not want to hear more on that.
The problem is recorded history and declassified documents proven conspiracy theories of the past are sometimes true. This only serves to make people generally "more distrustful" of a government they already have several misgivings about and if a situation isn't cut, dry and obvious people will sometimes look at it sideways.
Now this doesn't mean conspiracy theories are always true, party true or even have a grain of truth at all. But as a result of the things we've seen we tend to read with an eye out for the hidden agenda and look for the real story hidden within the story, especially when all the facts don't seem to add up.
Also every conspiracy theory isn't the same.
The government conspiracy at Ruby Ridge for example is well documented. Ironically it was one part of the government (the FBI) who figured out that other parts of the government (US Marshall's) had falsified reports regarding shootings and other subsequent government investigations concluded that the ROE used by the FBI at Ruby Ridge were actually illegal.
There is lot's of bone a fide conspiracies at work from all sides of that incident. But that doesn't mean George Bush and Israel convinced a bunch of Saudi's to fly planes into the WTC, nor does it mean there are aliens and alien spacecraft at Area 51.
And certainly before you go demanding answers from a family who just lost their children in a horrible tragedy, you better be damn right about those people still being alive or you richly deserve the ass kicking you should be getting.
You left out the part where the FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi shot Kevin Harris in the back while he was running away. He also killed an unarmed Vicki Weaver and barely missed the baby she was holding.
The ATF a few months later claimed a Branch Davidian fired on a helicopter but that was discredited. None other than Lon Horiuchi may have fired the first shot and they said the cult fired first. The ATF has zero jurisdiction over child abuse but Reno was on TV saying they were "beating babies" as justification for the raid. Throw a bunch of shit against the wall and see what sticks. Some say the raid was to distract from the sickening nature of Ruby Ridge by attacking a horde of disgusting cult members who were easy targets.
Fast and Furious...would've been considered a conspiracy theory until a legitimate enough source came forward. And some wonder why there's massive distrust of the government after their cover ups.
-------------------------------------
Why do so many of you feel the need to constantly be the nut-job police and keep having these knee-jerk reactions that you feel insecure enough that they are making you or us look bad?
It's akin to whites being apologists for skin heads being racists. Like "Umm...I know I'm white...but I don't agree with those freaks." Why does it even have to be said? You're only giving fuel to their fire. If they confront you then sure, call them out on it if you feel like it. I just don't feel the need to be the police every time something like this happens.
Fast and Furious...would've been considered a conspiracy theory until a legitimate enough source came forward. And some wonder why there's massive distrust of the government after their cover ups.
I don't want to drag this out, because I think the point's been made and it can die now, so I'll leave it after this.
Well that's the point, isn't it? The degree of certainty you express in a belief should track linearly with evidence. As the strength of evidence goes up, your confidence in your belief should go up. As the weight of evidence decreases, your certainty should fall.
Conspiracy-theories that are completely unsubstantiated and free of evidence are commonly espoused by people with absolute certainty. It's fine that they're looking into these things, and it is a good thing. But you don't go around acting like you're 100% sure until you have justification to be.
When the weight of evidence crosses a certain threshold, it ceases to be a conspiracy theory and becomes a scandal.
That's the whole point of what I'm saying. Some things that start out as conspiracy theories have turned out to be true. Why? Because evidence has been produced in their favor.
I'm arguing that as a matter of procedure, people who want to peddle their conspiracy theories should be held to higher standards of evidence. There are two reasons for this:
1) It will keep people from believing untruths.
2) It will actually help expose more scandals and misdeeds, because skeptics and those suspicious of the government will be forced to do better and more complete research.
There is literally no downside to having higher standards of evidence, no matter which side you're on.
You have to imagine how phantasmagorically strange it is to find so much opposition to the suggestion that people place more value on evidence.
Why do so many of you feel the need to constantly be the nut-job police and keep having these knee-jerk reactions that you feel insecure enough that they are making you or us look bad?
It's akin to whites being apologists for skin heads being racists. Like "Umm...I know I'm white...but I don't agree with those freaks." Why does it even have to be said? You're only giving fuel to their fire. If they confront you then sure, call them out on it if you feel like it. I just don't feel the need to be the police every time something like this happens.
For the same reason that I want moderate Muslims, for example, to start speaking more loudly and openly against fundamentalists. It's the same exact model (albeit with a vast difference in consequences); surely you can see the utility in this.
Because that's how problems get fixed -- not by an exogenous source, but from within "in groups."
For the same reason that I want moderate Muslims, for example, to start speaking more loudly and openly against fundamentalists. It's the same exact model (albeit with a vast difference in consequences); surely you can see the utility in this.
Because that's how problems get fixed -- not by an exogenous source, but from within "in groups."
You or anyone else are not going to "fix" conspiracists just as moderate Muslims aren't going to fix radicals. You guys only serve to make their cause stronger...ironically creating you a self supporting system so you can bitch louder and more often. There will always be fringe radicals in every group since utopia will never exist so no, I don't see the utility in attempting to change someone who isn't willing to change. By that token, you would advocate proselytization by other religions to convert "sinners" although I get the impression you'd feel it's also someone's right not to listen to it.
Sqwerl you know I appreciate your recent support and also respect your viewpoints. I also can't help but suspect you were partially referring to our private discussions to at least to some extent when you mention that some are in favor of speaking out against those that try to endorse certain conspiracy theories.
With that, just as I said privately and candidly, the firearm community is going up an even steeper hill right now via such theories being exploited by the media. And while healthy skepticism is always necessary as well as good, paranoia can only be detrimental.
I am in no way saying you are paranoid, rather I'm referring to the sub-section of gun owners who advocate and enable unsubstantiated scenarios. Ask questions and look carefully, just don't jump to essentially baseless conclusions.
Sqwerl you know I appreciate your recent support and also respect your viewpoints. I also can't help but suspect you were partially referring to our private discussions to at least to some extent when you mention that some are in favor of speaking out against those that try to endorse certain conspiracy theories.
With that, just as I said privately and candidly, the firearm community is going up an even steeper hill right now via such theories being exploited by the media. And while healthy skepticism is always necessary as well as good, paranoia can only be detrimental.
I am in no way saying you are paranoid, rather I'm referring to the sub-section of gun owners who advocate and enable unsubstantiated scenarios. Ask questions and look carefully, just don't jump to essentially baseless conclusions.
Believe it or not it really isn't all about you. Since you mention it though you are one of the constant nagging nervous nellies attempting to police the forum. You were warned, then banned, now you're back with the same attitude. I can see any encouragement I tried to give you was misguided.
Secondly I couldn't care less what the jerk offs in the media think of me or anyone else. Exploitation is their game as long as it fits their agenda. When is the last time you saw the MSM exploit or blow out of proportion a LEFT wing agenda or conspiracy? Well then those must not exist since we don't hear about them :rolleyes: You guys seem to have some sort of anxiety that causes you to panic when somebody with a gun or right wing gets news attention. By not having the knee-jerk reaction you do, I and anyone else are far from enablers.
ETA: From the start of the thread the title was never really discussed since the OP chose to go off on truthers instead. Anyone harrasing anyone else for any reason should be dealt with accordingly especially if they break the law. Why that really even needs to be said I'm not sure since I don't think most of us here would condone harassment.
No, it surely isn't all about me. Sorry you see it that way and that you disagree so strongly.
Still appreciate the now retracted support, no hard feelings here.
I have no real problem with people who want to let their imagination run wild on the internet - whatever builds their esteem. I disagree but it's really not worth the effort to bring this people out of their parent's basement.
However, attempting to contact or harass grieving families is a whole different matter. Those sick individuals should be treated like the Westboro Baptist freaks. I would not associate or do any business with either group.
thopkins22
02-09-13, 17:42
Of course the real question is not whether or not 911 was a government conspiracy, but whether or not the claim that 911 was a government conspiracy was a government conspiracy. :eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjrZj3GXjoA
Very funny episode.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s10e09-mystery-of-the-urinal-deuce
I was thinking the very same....
theblackknight
02-09-13, 17:58
I really can't take anyone seriously who has "MSM" in their post unless they are talking about mil spec monkey,then I really cant take you seriously.
These crazy fringe news websites are just as biased as the tv networks. You sound like a hippy railed agaisnt the man.
Damn these crazies!
Everyone knows you dont ever question the Government, especially when they exploit such incidents and use them to their advantge.
Do as you're told, believe what you're told, and damn sure dont EVER ask questions. Do not question known liars.
Or else you're a conspiracy theory kook.
Damn these crazies!
Everyone knows you dont ever question the Government, especially when they exploit such incidents and use them to their advantge.
Do as you're told, believe what you're told, and damn sure dont EVER ask questions. Do not question known liars.
Or else you're a conspiracy theory kook.
Bizarre.
Reread this thread. It's about evidence. Speaking for myself, I remain open to evidence on every issue from the existence of Poseidon to 9/11 being an inside job. Thusfar, I have seen sufficient evidence for neither claim. Go ahead and question and investigate all you want (I've even encouraged it), but when it comes time to make a real truth-claim, I expect you to have a good case based on real evidence. And you should expect that claim to be challenged. If it holds up to rational inquiry, then we're going somewhere.
The only people who could possibly disagree with what I've just written must know that they're wrong already.
Bizarre.
Reread this thread. It's about evidence. Speaking for myself, I remain open to evidence on every issue from the existence of Poseidon to 9/11 being an inside job. Thusfar, I have seen sufficient evidence for neither claim. Go ahead and question and investigate all you want (I've even encouraged it), but when it comes time to make a real truth-claim, I expect you to have a good case based on real evidence. And you should expect that claim to be challenged. If it holds up to rational inquiry, then we're going somewhere.
The only people who could possibly disagree with what I've just written must know that they're wrong already.
Now way not me! Im no CONSPIRACY THEORIST. I do what Im told, and I believe what Im told to believe. The Federal Government loves me and would do no evil, or allow evil things to take place in order to further an agenda. There is no reason to question anything, they would not lie to us....ever.
Personally I believe in belittling anyone that would question the Federal Government by calling them a kook and a conspiracy theorist.
P.S. thats a sweet avatar......
Why should u even care?
Much of what is considered "tin foil" has a basis of truth.
Much of what is presented in the mainstream media is total crap.
Some things expressed I have insufficient background to comment one way or the other so I shut my mouth and RESEARCH the topic. And I don't mean a fifteen minute web search and consider it "good".
So do we VOTE in truth? Do we choose that which makes us least uncomfortable?
Sounds FEAR-based to me.
I really can't take anyone seriously who has "MSM" in their post unless they are talking about mil spec monkey,then I really cant take you seriously.
These crazy fringe news websites are just as biased as the tv networks. You sound like a hippy railed agaisnt the man.
You assume a great deal. I don't get my news from info wars, prison planet or any site that harks about chem trails, 911 conspiracies, or peddles colloidal silver cures. Not that I owe you an explanation but I made it clear how I feel about Alex Jones in the Piers Morgan interview thread. I could assume you believe everything spoon fed to you by MSNBC, CNN, ABC, or Fox. Maybe listen to NPR...at least they try to get most of their info correct or probably at least believe what they're reporting is true! Instead of the royal cluster**** the media made of Sandy Hook.
Safetyhit has already accused me of not believing any children died just because I question the handling of the matter and the obvious manipulation of the facts. He called you out on not being hardcore enough so maybe you had to give him threads to prove you're worthy to be a thread nazi. :lol:
Blackknight owed me nothing and in fact proved that I wasn't fully informed before I posted. I saw no appeasement on his part, only a fair correction.
Now since you feel the need to go on the offensive let me ask you a question. Do you believe what happened at the Sandy Hook was something other than reported? If so, what elements do you specifically find suspect?
Don't answer if you like, but since you're throwing stones you should at least own up to it.
Eurodriver
06-07-17, 19:40
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/7/lucy-richards-florida-woman-sentenced-sandy-hook-p/
Lucy Richards, Florida woman, sentenced in Sandy Hook parent threat case
Good.
P.S. I love how the news injects "Florida woman/man" whenever convenient to disparage this great state.
No one is ever like "Emmitt Smith, Florida Man, wins 3rd Super Bowl"
A lot of anti-Trump and anti-gun smear that has nothing to do with the topic.
Others linked to the Sandy Hook massacre have reported harassment by hoax believers amid a growing trend of “fake news” stories and baseless conspiracy theories, such as the “Pizzagate” case in which a man fired an assault rifle inside a Washington, D.C., pizzeria after going there to investigate unfounded claims it harbored a child sex abuse ring.
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