View Full Version : Costa Ludus M&P
Voodoochild
02-07-13, 13:58
Call me late to the party but I happened upon his custom M&P while on YouTube last night. Looks interesting not sure about the slide being opened up like that. Looks like an easy way to introduce dirt and other foreign crud into your gun awfully quick and cause jams.
Anyone handle or shoot one by chance?
theblackknight
02-07-13, 14:11
Easy in,easy out.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Gunfighter.45
02-07-13, 14:19
Chris explains both platforms..here's the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYrSFRkue3Y
morbidbattlecry
02-07-13, 17:53
I would probably burn myself on that barrel in about five minutes of shooting.
Apricotshot
02-07-13, 18:30
The huge man boner that the owner of Rocky Creek facility has for Costa is really getting to be too much. Go on the FB page and all the guy talks about is the bearded one.
I dont like the look but i'd like to try it if i could get my hands on one.
Has anyone here held and shot one?
Call me late to the party but I happened upon his custom M&P while on YouTube last night. Looks interesting not sure about the slide being opened up like that. Looks like an easy way to introduce dirt and other foreign crud into your gun awfully quick and cause jams.
Anyone handle or shoot one by chance?
My friend Doug at ATEi is the one doing those guns. He is a master machinist and a 1st class stand-up human being. I haven't shot one of his M&P's but I did get to fondle a few builds when I picked up my G19 from Doug.
Voodoochild
02-07-13, 19:42
My friend Doug at ATEi is the one doing those guns. He is a master machinist and a 1st class stand-up human being. I haven't shot one of his M&P's but I did get to fondle a few builds when I picked up my G19 from Doug.
Interesting what's the scoop on the slide being "ported" out like the on on Costas? I checked out the atei site but doesn't really have much info on there.
That's called a 'Limited' gun.
.
Interesting what's the scoop on the slide being "ported" out like the on on Costas? I checked out the atei site but doesn't really have much info on there.
For others in this thread....It would be nice if we could stay on subject instead of bashing a guy. :rolleyes:
With the lighter slide and 20lb recoil spring the gun cycles faster.
It's lighter and you can transition from target to target faster and has less muzzle flip. It's also lighter to carry is that means anything.
That's called a 'Limited' gun.
.
Wrong.
This is not a competition gun.
I have shot one. It's a nice shooting gun. That's it. It's nice shooting. My time behind it is about 1 mags worth. I wasn't floored but again I wasn't griping after I shot it.
The top is owned up just like the long slide Glocks. Removes weight. May help with the speed of the action. Costa asks for that kind of stuff on his guns to make them run faster.
Easy on the costa hating on this particular topic. He pitchs his $1500 gun or suggests if the cost and availability is too much to get skateboard tape and apply it where desired.
If you meet the guy who runs Rocky Creek you'll realize that his posts are business driven. He has much respect for other instructors and has hosted them but Costa is based a few hours up the road in Jacksonville and has decided to make Rocky Creek something akin to homefield. Guys from Texas and NC etc just don't get there enough.
With the lighter slide and 20lb recoil spring the gun cycles faster.
It's lighter and you can transition from target to target faster and has less muzzle flip. It's also lighter to carry is that means anything.
Why on earth would you put a 20 lb. recoil spring in a 9mm M&P with a lightened slide?
Lots of misinformation in this thread. Who said it had a 20lb spring in it? Also who in here has actually shot a pistol with a lightened slide? If you were to use that pistol in USPSA it would in fact be a limited set up.
Lots of misinformation in this thread. Who said it had a 20lb spring in it? Also who in here has actually shot a pistol with a lightened slide? If you were to use that pistol in USPSA it would in fact be a limited set up.
Who said it?
The guy who built it.
Who said it?
The guy who built it.
I was asking as that makes no sense. Maybe for some reason it would work with HOT 9mm loads but I can't see why to run it so heavy.
I ran some cheap 115s and it was good. I will add to me original post that recoil is sweet. It doesn't move much at all.
My thoughts about this pistol are:
1. Why?
2. Who cares?
With all the viable factory options available this does nothing at all for me.
If this truly is "the answer", then all the manufacturers will take notice and copy it. I just don't see that happening.
My thoughts are this is something only the Magpul/Costa fanboys will embrace, and that is their free choice. Good luck.
Wrong.
This is not a competition gun.
It's exactly what you see shooting in Limited division every weekend in USPSA.
I'm not saying that it doesn't run and wouldn't work for anything you'd wanna do with it, it's just nothing new as far custom pistols go.
Nice work BTW.
Magic_Salad0892
02-07-13, 22:01
I'll be honest. I like it. But I wouldn't own it, because I don't think it'd do anything for me.
I'm not good enough to notice the difference, and when I am, I won't need it.
jonconsiglio
02-07-13, 22:07
It may be the greatest thing ever.... But, I don't know what it is since it's not a "competition" gun and very likely not a duty gun. I guess it's a training gun. A training gun that's probably different than your duty or carry M&P.
I'd really like to hear what kind of speed is gained by this. I mean with a handful of good shooters using this and a standard M&P.
Now, if it's not a competition gun, then what really is this increase in speed gaining us? This is a serious question as I'd like to know.
I'm all for speed when shooting, I really am. But, having prevailed in a fight involving a handgun, I've found that a couple hundredths of a second gain in splits isn't what won the fight, it was my ability to get the first hit and my ability to out-fight my opponent. Working with the officers that I do and all the material I've ever reviewed on actual fights, I've never seen a point where a slightly faster split would have mattered.
For me, and this is just me and my opinion, but the difference between ten rounds in two seconds and eleven or twelve rounds in two seconds isn't what wins the fight.
So, I'm curious now since the point was made that its not a limited gun, where is the gain? Does it translate to a standard M&P? You know, I shoot the modified gun faster, so now I should be faster with an unmodifed gun as well?
Is that gain in speed worth the extra $1,000? Well, minus the trigger and grip work as that's just preference. So, whatever's left in cost for the slide, is it worth it for the gains?
I get the slide top serrations I guess, but the milling out is what I am trying to understand.
If y'all haven't noticed in modern training they are pushing the issue with putting multiple shots on target fast. There is a reason the people that shoot USPSA/IDPA modify their guns. They shoot flatter and you can put shots on target faster. Whenever I see Costa shoot his pistol or AR it seems like its all about speed so of course your mods from the speed world cross over into the training world.
It may be the greatest thing ever.... But, I don't know........
Maybe you should ask Chris Costa, or the builder, instead of opining to anyone and everyone who has an opinion on everything (ignorant or otherwise, and all inclusive), regardless of whether they've handled, or shot one, or not?
The gun has some genuine upgrades and mods, but overall its still an M&P 9mm. Only a very select few will think its exactly what they're looking for in a pistol, and only a few of them will be able to afford it. I see this as a Costa Collectible more than anything else. Was the price on this gun $1500? If so, thats outrageous but good for him. My guess is that anyone who's a strong enough shooter to benefit from all of the mods on this gun isnt someone who needs all these mods to shoot with a high level of expertise anyway.
Magic_Salad0892
02-07-13, 22:21
It may be the greatest thing ever.... But, I don't know what it is since it's not a "competition" gun and very likely not a duty gun. I guess it's a training gun. A training gun that's probably different than your duty or carry M&P.
I'd really like to hear what kind of speed is gained by this. I mean with a handful of good shooters using this and a standard M&P.
Now, if it's not a competition gun, then what really is this increase in speed gaining us? This is a serious question as I'd like to know.
I'm all for speed when shooting, I really am. But, having prevailed in a fight involving a handgun, I've found that a couple hundredths of a second gain in splits isn't what won the fight, it was my ability to get the first hit and my ability to out-fight my opponent. Working with the officers that I do and all the material I've ever reviewed on actual fights, I've never seen a point where a slightly faster split would have mattered.
For me, and this is just me and my opinion, but the difference between ten rounds in two seconds and eleven or twelve rounds in two seconds isn't what wins the fight.
So, I'm curious now since the point was made that its not a limited gun, where is the gain? Does it translate to a standard M&P? You know, I shoot the modified gun faster, so now I should be faster with an unmodifed gun as well?
Is that gain in speed worth the extra $1,000? Well, minus the trigger and grip work as that's just preference. So, whatever's left in cost for the slide, is it worth it for the gains?
I get the slide top serrations I guess, but the milling out is what I am trying to understand.
I don't think that at any point you can go wrong with more bullets, faster, and more controllable. But there has to be something bad about this setup. I don't think it's a realistic size or profile for most people to carry.
Dave Sevigny is able to win all kinds of competitions with a Glock with very few modifications. This Costa gun is marketing fluff. Like it, then buy it. This is America. Let's just not pretend that this is better, necessary, or even a good idea.
Magic_Salad0892
02-07-13, 22:24
This Costa gun is fluff.
Maybe not for Costa.
Maybe not for Costa.
When Costa beats Sevigny in the Steel Challenge, I may take note. Until then, IMO, this is FAF. FAF = fake as ****.
It's exactly what you see shooting in Limited division every weekend in USPSA.
I'm not saying that it doesn't run and wouldn't work for anything you'd wanna do with it, it's just nothing new as far custom pistols go.
Nice work BTW.
You're wrong. This pistol is clearly for combative combats.
jonconsiglio
02-07-13, 22:40
Maybe you should ask Chris Costa, or the builder, instead of opining to anyone and everyone who has an opinion on everything (ignorant or otherwise, and all inclusive), regardless of whether they've handled, or shot one, or not?
Really? Maybe I should ask shooters. Which is what I'm doing, as well as one of the builders who is posting in this thread.
I want to know differences experienced with this gun and how they matter.
Thanks for your advice though, I'll take note. So, why don't you tell me? I don't sen industry professional in your title, but the ATEI address in your sig leads me to believe you are associated with this somehow. So tell me, what is the gain? Will it help me win a fight?
Instead of that kind of reply, maybe you could have just answered my question. You know, being a business and all, post content goes a long way.
jonconsiglio
02-07-13, 22:45
If y'all haven't noticed in modern training they are pushing the issue with putting multiple shots on target fast. There is a reason the people that shoot USPSA/IDPA modify their guns. They shoot flatter and you can put shots on target faster. Whenever I see Costa shoot his pistol or AR it seems like its all about speed so of course your mods from the speed world cross over into the training world.
Yep. But I do not see how they cross over to the world where people carry a gun for a living. That's my point. Where's the advantage? This will never fly as a duty gun for most departments.
I've been in a fight before. I mean a dirty, hands on, I need to live kind of fight. It was ugly and barbaric. The one thing that wouldn't have mattered though is if I fired with a couple hundredths of a second faster splits.
I'm just trying to see the benefit here. I'm all for people buying what they want. Hell, I have a $3,600 Nighthawk because I like it. I've had a few others when I carried 1911's. This I own simply because I like it.
Are people buying this gun because it'll make them a better "gunfighter" or because they think it looks nice? Either way, I don't care and will buy thinks I like as well, I just want to know the real reason behind the purchases.
I don't think that at any point you can go wrong with more bullets, faster, and more controllable. But there has to be something bad about this setup. I don't think it's a realistic size or profile for most people to carry.
I certainly agree. I want as many rounds as quickly as possible. I'm just curious of their selling point. Costa's name on it is enough for most buyers, and that's cool. I'm just trying to get to the point of it all. Why? What do I get for $1,500? How much faster are the shooters testing these guns? I'm certain they run timers in class, so how much faster are the splits?
theblackknight
02-07-13, 22:50
It's missing the L division child swallowing mag well.Maybe Chris took a class from Vogel?
With a light slide,hot ammo and heavy spring, wouldnt there be massive muzzle dip?
jonconsiglio
02-07-13, 22:55
No shit sherlock. But when one is asking for specifics, what sense does it make to ask an opinion from those who have no experience behind that specifically asked about? Expecting an accurate answer from anyone other than the builder or the person running the build is ignorant.
Smart ass replies are just immature. More immature for those representing a business.
If you re-read my post, and not just the snips you quoted, you'll see I was asking those with experience.
I'll assume you have experience since you work for them, so how much faster are you with this gun? Seriously? How much faster are your splits? This is important for us to know, even if it only applies to you and the next guy is twice as fast, or slow.
I take it you're not Doug. What is your name?
Magic_Salad0892
02-07-13, 23:00
I certainly agree. I want as many rounds as quickly as possible. I'm just curious of their selling point. Costa's name on it is enough for most buyers, and that's cool. I'm just trying to get to the point of it all. Why? What do I get for $1,500? How much faster are the shooters testing these guns? I'm certain they run timers in class, so how much faster are the splits?
Here's the question. Why do you spend $1,500+ for a good 1911?
I'm willing to bet that their answer as to why they buy this M&P is similar.
jonconsiglio
02-07-13, 23:08
Here's the question. Why do you spend $1,500+ for a good 1911?
I'm willing to bet that their answer as to why they buy this M&P is similar.
Well, a higher end 1911, in my experience, is more likely to work reliably. My $500 M&P's (and Glocks) already work.
A fairer comparison would be, do you buy the $1,500 1911, or buy the $2,500 1911 with a slide that's cut open and has checkering. The checkering I get. The cocking serrations too. What I'm trying to understand the cutouts and what you really gain.
A member here from AETI had an opportunity to reply, but he just made slightly rude comments.
EDIT -
It appears I made a mistake. I assumed BIGBANG was an employee of ATEI due to his sig line and rude posts in defense of the Costa M&P. But, he's just friends with Doug as he stated on the page before. So, I apologize to ATEI for taking BIGBANG's disrespectful posts as a sign of the type of people employed at ATEI. By all accounts, here and on Lightfighter, Doug is a stand up guy.
Magic_Salad0892
02-07-13, 23:15
Well, a higher end 1911, in my experience, is more likely to work reliably. My $500 M&P's (and Glocks) already work.
A fairer comparison would be, do you buy the $1,500 1911, or buy the $2,500 1911 with a slide that's cut open and has checkering. The checkering I get. The cocking serrations too. What I'm trying to understand the cutouts and what you really gain.
A member here from AETI had an opportunity to reply, but he just made slightly rude comments.
I was talking about spending $1,500-2,500 on a good 1911 when a $1k HK45 is already a super reliable, ergonomic workable gun.
When there's a working option, why spend more?
It's the fact that it's a Costa gun. I'd think. Or some people really think that they're good enough to notice the recoil, or handling difference difference. Maybe some people think it looks cool.
Or some people see it and go "Hey! I'd probably shoot Limited Division well with that!"
I think that for the vast majority, it's a gun for suckers. But I won't say that it doesn't do anything for the guy who spec'd it, after the explanation in the video.
Well, a higher end 1911, in my experience, is more likely to work reliably. My $500 M&P's (and Glocks) already work.
A fairer comparison would be, do you buy the $1,500 1911, or buy the $2,500 1911 with a slide that's cut open and has checkering. The checkering I get. The cocking serrations too. What I'm trying to understand the cutouts and what you really gain.
A member here from AETI had an opportunity to reply, but he just made slightly rude comments.
In a way, you're invalidating his work by questioning it. There is no real reason as to why this pistol exists, so, because he cannot come up with one he saw fit to respond in the manner that he did.
It is beautiful machine work and the dude is talented but i think the package is about as useless as tits on a bull.
It is a snazzy limited gun and there is no way in hell i would ever carry something like that. I buy Glocks because they are plain, because they work and because they are a no frills solution to my "tool" requirements.
This kind of thing is about as useful" as the Salient Arms Tier 1 guns. They look pretty but they dont make you into a shooter.
Also, i believe the gun has a 20 pound recoil spring because they couldnt figure out a way to keep that light ass slide in battery. I guess THAT is why it is NOT a "competition" gun...lol. My M&P's with factory recoil springs would get knocked out of battery simply by dropping prone quickly...shave off a few ounces and things get worse...
jonconsiglio
02-07-13, 23:19
In a way, you're invalidating his work by questioning it. There is no real reason as to why this pistol exists so because he cannot come up with one he saw fit to respond in the manner that he did.
It is beautiful machine work and the dude is talented but i think the package is about as useless as tits on a bull.
It is a snazzy limited gun and there is no way in hell i would ever carry something like that. I buy Glocks because they are plain, because they work and because they are a no frills solution to my "tool" requirements.
This kind of thing is about as useful" as the Salient Arms Tier 1 guns. They look pretty but they dont make you into a shooter.
Also, i believe the gun has a 20 pound recoil spring because they couldnt figure out a way to keep that light ass slide in battery. I guess THAT is why it is NOT a "competition" gun...lol. My M&P's with factory recoil springs would get knocked out of battery simply by dropping prone quickly...shave off a few ounces and things get worse...
Those of you that know me should know I'd never try to invalidate someone's work, especially someone that does quality work in the first place. I've actually recommended ATEI before, so I'm certainly not questioning Doug's work and didn't mean to come off that way.
I'm just questioning the reason and I just want to know the difference seen. BIGBANG, who apparently is not an ATEI employee, is what pushed me a bit to question it.
I hear all these comments about it being faster. But, I don't think I've heard ATEI state that. So, if that is the case, I'm curious as to what kind of differences shooters are seeing. My guess it's simply aesthetics.
I hear you about the battery as well. I like my M&{P's, but have moved back to Glocks for personal and work carry.
SWATcop556
02-08-13, 00:07
If you don't have one of the following, stop posting:
1.) Hands on experience with the gun
2.) A genuine question for those with hands on experience with the gun
There's been some douche posts in this thread so far. That stops. Now.
maybe i'm missing something but as far as I know, nobody is holding this gun to your head and making you buy it... so why all the complaining? If you don't like it... don't buy it. If you like it and you've got the money... more power. I respect a lot of people on here but this thread seems pretty out of character for this board
Magic_Salad0892
02-08-13, 00:16
maybe i'm missing something but as far as I know, nobody is holding this gun to your head and making you buy it... so why all the complaining? If you don't like it... don't buy it. If you like it and you've got the money... more power. I respect a lot of people on here but this thread seems pretty out of character for this board
We're not complaining. We're trying to figure out exactly what void it is supposed to fill.
I'm confused. If this is not made specifically for competition, a 3.5-4 pound trigger seem kinda light.
jonconsiglio
02-08-13, 05:52
maybe i'm missing something but as far as I know, nobody is holding this gun to your head and making you buy it... so why all the complaining? If you don't like it... don't buy it. If you like it and you've got the money... more power. I respect a lot of people on here but this thread seems pretty out of character for this board
Understood. Let me just be clear of what I'm asking...
First, we hear this lighter slide is making the gun faster. That's the reasoning behind the work that I've heard. Now, if that's true, that's great.
What I'm asking is this. How much faster are we talking? On a timer, are we seeing faster splits? Is there an increase or decrease in reliability?
They say it's not a competition gun. So, is this a carry gun? Is it reliable with the slide work? instead of a single answer, all I'm hearing is people saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". Well, I can't say that I do or don't like it since getting hands on one isn't going to happen and nobody is stating the benefits.
I get the grip mods and trigger work.
If the guys behind this gun came out and said it was purely for aesthetics, I'd be all for that. they didn't. They said there was an advantage in speed and target transition.
I prefer Glocks but own a couple M&P's. One of them I've taken and experimented with all kinds of stuff on it looking for advantages. So, I'm all for mods, I just like to know what the expected return is for the work.
That's all. Curiosity. No harm intended.
If a product doesn't speak to you.. ok. If it furthers the sport and awareness, excellent. Ford, Chevy, whatever.
The origin of the product speaks to the customer base.
Some instructors have background to teach technical manipulations, some combative experiences. Some have one or either and have the communications skills of an earthworm. Due diligence is you reward for the perspective you seek.
With regard to fractions of seconds mattering in conflict.. sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Time to definitively resolve a situation always matters, and exponentially matters the more complex the problem. Reducing the variables, quickly chewing works. How fast do you need to be for the problem in front of you? To pound ones podium about having involvement in one incident is ridiculous. Sample of one is a sample of one. Look at the world stage for the last 12yrs. Some persons who professionally implement violence for the state, their movement, or gang.. have hundreds, some thousands of incidents and a broader perspective.
I think that for the vast majority, it's a gun for suckers. But I won't say that it doesn't do anything for the guy who spec'd it, after the explanation in the video.
Well said.
Eta: fixed quote
jonconsiglio
02-08-13, 06:52
If a product doesn't speak to you.. ok. If it furthers the sport and awareness, excellent. Ford, Chevy, whatever.
The origin of the product speaks to the customer base.
Some instructors have background to teach technical manipulations, some combative experiences. Some have one or either and have the communications skills of an earthworm. Due diligence is you reward for the perspective you seek.
With regard to fractions of seconds mattering in conflict.. sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Time to definitively resolve a situation always matters, and exponentially matters the more complex the problem. Reducing the variables, quickly chewing works. How fast do you need to be for the problem in front of you? To pound ones podium about having involvement in one incident is ridiculous. Sample of one is a sample of one. Look at the world stage for the last 12yrs. Some persons who professionally implement violence for the state, their movement, or gang.. have hundreds, some thousands of incidents and a broader perspective.
Please understand that I meant no disrespect in any way. I'm just curious about the gains. I'm not the one throwing insults or trashing the gun or the guys.
If guys saw me of my M&P's they'd probably think I'd be first n line for this.
Take a Glock 34/35 for example. From what I understand, the opening in the slide is to get the weight back down to that of a 17 for proper function. Guys make comments about dirt and debris in the slide, but most have proven a non issue.
I think it was Ken Hackathorn that tested if it could fail with a dime in the slide.
Now, an M&P is set up similarly, and just like the Glocks, some of us have questions about function, which I'm sure is fine, and speed since the point was made about splits and transitions.
I don't understand how simple questions about performance are construed as insults. I'm not. I would just like to know. When I installed better sights, contoured the grip, added the AEK trigger then trained quite a bit, I saw performance gains. Not much, but maybe 10% as a rough guess.
That's all I'm asking here and I don't understand the problem. Also, nobody is pounding a podium. I'm talking about my experiences as well as the comments I hear from many trainers with far more experience. Of course we want to shoot as fast as possible, accurately.
We're not complaining. We're trying to figure out exactly what void it is supposed to fill.
Dont point out the obvious...even though its shining in everyones faces. If you post about it, it may get deleted.
Since I cant talk about that(the obvious reason for the gun), ill say this. I have never seen a daily cary gun that is modified to this extent.
IWB - grip would tear you up (w/o an under shirt), slide would probably bite your skin.
Training - thats great, perhaps it makes a really good shooter a little better. You should train with what you carry....so concealment is probably out unless you are wearing a fag bag. So why train with it?
Competition - go for it. This is the only purpose that makes since.
Magic_Salad0892
02-08-13, 06:59
Well said.
I don't want anybody to take that quote out of context.
I still think highly of the companies who released it.
I don't want anybody to take that quote out of context.
I still think highly of the companies who released it.
Sure, I understand, and thats not my intent. I also think it is the most applicable source for the creation.
Not to worry though...my posts will most likely be removed.
Magic_Salad0892
02-08-13, 07:19
Not to worry though...my posts will most likely be removed.
The mods have been under a fair amount of pressure in moderating this board lately.
With all due respect, I think it would be better if you didn't post things like this right now.
Voodoochild
02-08-13, 07:20
If a product doesn't speak to you.. ok. If it furthers the sport and awareness, excellent. Ford, Chevy, whatever.
The origin of the product speaks to the customer base.
Some instructors have background to teach technical manipulations, some combative experiences. Some have one or either and have the communications skills of an earthworm. Due diligence is you reward for the perspective you seek.
With regard to fractions of seconds mattering in conflict.. sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Time to definitively resolve a situation always matters, and exponentially matters the more complex the problem. Reducing the variables, quickly chewing works. How fast do you need to be for the problem in front of you? To pound ones podium about having involvement in one incident is ridiculous. Sample of one is a sample of one. Look at the world stage for the last 12yrs. Some persons who professionally implement violence for the state, their movement, or gang.. have hundreds, some thousands of incidents and a broader perspective.
Well said Dano. :big_boss:
jonconsiglio
02-08-13, 08:02
Well said Dano. :big_boss:
I'm pretty much just asking the same thing as in your opening post... Which showed concern that the slide cuts could cause malfunctions.
Those reading this thread, keep in mind I've never made any negative remarks about the gun. I've just been asking for the benefits.
Here's the question. Why do you spend $1,500+ for a good 1911?
I'm willing to bet that their answer as to why they buy this M&P is similar.
$1500 is LOW for a quality 1911. The reason why people spend well over this is because they don't want MIM parts and they want it to run under hard use. Having a professional hand fit your gun (one piece at a time) is super expensive.
In regards to an M&P for $1500, I think some questions would have to be asked before I would spend that money.
1. Is the barrel fitted? If so, which barrel are they using?
2. What trigger work is being done? For $1500, why isn't an Apex Tactical FSS or AEK being used??? This is a far superior trigger to the cheap plastic "half moon" one that S&W provides.
3. What is the accuracy guarantee?
4. While the machined slots look cool, what real purpose are they serving (other than a place for loose change to get stuck in)? Did they look at balance when adding the slots or did they just put them any place?
If you buy an M&P ($450) and then send it to Apex Tactical to have a barrel fitted ($250) and their FSS installed ($180) and Trijcion HD sights ($135) you are at $1015. If you add stippling by a quality guy, you add another $150. This totals out to: $1165. So the question is, is the machining work worth an additional $500 dollars?? For me, the answer is no as see zero benefit to it.
There are SEVERAL companies doing this type of work to Glock and M&P's and I am not going after any one company. Just bringing up questions that should be asked before spending that kind of money.
YMMV.
C4
Understood. Let me just be clear of what I'm asking...
First, we hear this lighter slide is making the gun faster. That's the reasoning behind the work that I've heard. Now, if that's true, that's great.
What I'm asking is this. How much faster are we talking? On a timer, are we seeing faster splits? Is there an increase or decrease in reliability?
They say it's not a competition gun. So, is this a carry gun? Is it reliable with the slide work? instead of a single answer, all I'm hearing is people saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". Well, I can't say that I do or don't like it since getting hands on one isn't going to happen and nobody is stating the benefits.
I get the grip mods and trigger work.
If the guys behind this gun came out and said it was purely for aesthetics, I'd be all for that. they didn't. They said there was an advantage in speed and target transition.
I prefer Glocks but own a couple M&P's. One of them I've taken and experimented with all kinds of stuff on it looking for advantages. So, I'm all for mods, I just like to know what the expected return is for the work.
That's all. Curiosity. No harm intended.
wasn't necessarily referring to you but some of the posts were almost bashing the product. So if people don't like it that's cool, or if someone used it and it was a POS, feel free to talk about how terrible it was. But if people don't like it or don't think it's worth the $1500, then just don't buy it. That's the joy of capitalism... you vote with your wallet
Winston Wolf
02-08-13, 14:51
The douche is strong with this one
theblackknight
02-08-13, 15:10
wasn't necessarily referring to you but some of the posts were almost bashing the product. So if people don't like it that's cool, or if someone used it and it was a POS, feel free to talk about how terrible it was. But if people don't like it or don't think it's worth the $1500, then just don't buy it. That's the joy of capitalism... you vote with your wallet
Dude, the "its a free country" defense is tired. No one here is saying people shouldnt be allowed to spend money on fancy gun stuff, what being talked about is value and function. Is it smart? Worth the money? Just a gun for followers to collect along with their Ken doll?
Ill say this again, with a light slide, full powered ammo and a 20# spring, wouldnt you get massive front end(sight) dip?
A reduced recoil spring gives the slide a little more hang time to ensure feeding, and your muzzle dosent dip as much or at all when the slide comes back into battery.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
I'm just making a point. I don't have a horse in this race, I've never bought a Costa-Ludas gun, I own an M&P Shield but have virtually no interest in the full size. It just seemed to me that there was an awful lot of complaining and hand wringing over this for no good reason.
I'm just making a point. I don't have a horse in this race, I've never bought a Costa-Ludas gun, I own an M&P Shield but have virtually no interest in the full size. It just seemed to me that there was an awful lot of complaining and hand wringing over this for no good reason.
Its an internet discussion forum where we come to critically discuss our shooting hobby/lifestyle/career...
I am surprised that you dont see the point behind critical analysis of gear, especially considering your profession...
You're new here, i think eventually you will understand some of the ire directed towards products like this.
certainly, I did not see some of the criticisms as 'rational' however. Difference between being critical and bashing, that's all.
Its an internet discussion forum where we come to critically discuss our shooting hobby/lifestyle/career...
I am surprised that you dont see the point behind critical analysis of gear, especially considering your profession...
You're new here, i think eventually you will understand some of the ire directed towards products like this.
Right. For the record, I am friends with Mr. Costa and he was a customer of ours LONG BEFORE anyone on the errornet had EVER heard of him. I hope he makes a million dollars off of this pistol, but that doesn't mean that I can't ask questions about the gun. ;)
C4
jonconsiglio
02-08-13, 17:15
Right. For the record, I am friends with Mr. Costa and he was a customer of ours LONG BEFORE anyone on the errornet had EVER heard of him. I hope he makes a million dollars off of this pistol, but that doesn't mean that I can't ask questions about the gun. ;)
C4
That's exactly my point and what I said from early on. I never once called Chris or Doug into question and have nothing but respect for them. Well, I did question BigBang, but it turns out he's just the friend of a guy with a business.
Yet, I ask simple questions about this handgun and people act like I'm insulting their religion. Not exactly sure who each post was directed at, but even a couple mods/SME's chime in. Well, I know where one was directed and is was almost insulting, which kind of sucks as I had a lot of respect for that individual after things I've heard from another SME/mods I'm friends with. I get where the bashing is frowned upon, but that's not what I did at any point. If it came out that way, I apologize.
I wasn't aware that only being involved in only one shooting and a considerable amount of close quarters training wasn't enough to form a personal opinion. I'll guess I'll just tap my podium from now on instead of "pounding" it.
It's gotten to a point around here where if certain names are associated with firearms we're wrong and we should just not even ask. That's not very productive and just ridiculous that it's gotten to that point here.
I appreciate you posting this Grant. This is a place to share information between us, good and bad. Advertisements are for magazines.
Jon
If you have questions you can PM or call me.
This thread is a fricken train wreck and I won't be posting in it again.
P.S. Who the hell is bigbang?
jonconsiglio
02-08-13, 21:12
If you have questions you can PM or call me.
This thread is a fricken train wreck and I won't be posting in it again.
P.S. Who the hell is bigbang?
Apparently a friend of your's with your company web address in his signature. Not sure why you won't post in it again. Some uof us just want to know what you mean by the statement quoted below. How is that determined. What differences were seen when put on the timer. Not sure why the guy doing these mods wouldn't want to comment on how he came to these conclusions.
Sorry we're not all immediately jumping on board. I know they all sold out so it really doesn't matter what we think, but backing your statements just seems like the right thing to do.
Not a personal attack at all, by the way, though for some reason everyone is taking this so intense.
With the lighter slide and 20lb recoil spring the gun cycles faster.
It's lighter and you can transition from target to target faster and has less muzzle flip. It's also lighter to carry is that means anything.
Voodoochild
02-08-13, 22:39
For the record my first post was simply a curiosity question more than anything else. I had never seen the pistol.before or heard of it. I find it intriguing and it looks like a nice piece. I was more interested in the slide work more than anything.
JBecker 72
02-08-13, 23:01
This is the first I have seen of this pistol and ATEI's work. I gotta say, I would like to own one of these and feel the asking price is very fair. Having said that, I do also really like the Salient tier 1 Glock 34's, and those are $2500 for basically the same work.
Would love to have one of the Pro models.
This is the first I have seen of this pistol and ATEI's work. I gotta say, I would like to own one of these and feel the asking price is very fair. Having said that, I do also really like the Salient tier 1 Glock 34's, and those are $2500 for basically the same work.
Would love to have one of the Pro models.
if im not mistaken, alot of guys have picked up on that company
(salient arms)
http://www.salientarmsstore.com/shop/glock-17-tier-one-package-4/
link to one of their package builders.
jason over at RB1
costa
Lamb over at VTAC
all M&P's, glocks, benelli's, and the odd springfield xd
ive been in email contact with their sales department and they seem like good guys.... but its not cheap.
packages start around 1,500 and go up to almost 3k
something like $90 an hour for gunsmithing.
Rattlehead
02-09-13, 01:31
if im not mistaken, alot of guys have picked up on that company
(salient arms)
http://www.salientarmsstore.com/shop/glock-17-tier-one-package-4/
link to one of their package builders.
jason over at RB1
costa
Lamb over at VTAC
all M&P's, glocks, benelli's, and the odd springfield xd
ive been in email contact with their sales department and they seem like good guys.... but its not cheap.
packages start around 1,500 and go up to almost 3k
something like $90 an hour for gunsmithing.
In my opinion, the finished product you will get from ATEi is more functional and practical, where Salient is more aesthetically pleasing, for a lot more money.
I don't understand why people keep asking questions that were covered in the video. I thought Mr. Costa did a good job explaining what was done to the pistol, why it was done and that the slide cuts did not effect reliability and the pistol functioned in sandy/dirty environments.
Interesting looking pistol.
Some of the mods seem dubious without having shot it first hand and the price is outsite my comfort zone.
How is that determined. What differences were seen when put on the timer.
I was talking to Mr. Hackathorn yesterday about reducing the weight of the slide (thusly speeding it up) and he brought up a valid point. The spring in the mag can only push up a round so fast and if the mag cannot keep up, you will not chamber a round. As any debris that gets into the mag (because you dropped them in the dirt during an E-Reload) it will slow down the mag follower as well.
Food for thought....
C4
For the record my first post was simply a curiosity question more than anything else. I had never seen the pistol.before or heard of it. I find it intriguing and it looks like a nice piece. I was more interested in the slide work more than anything.
I agree. The machining of the slide does look astetically pleasing.
C4
but its not cheap.
packages start around 1,500 and go up to almost 3k
something like $90 an hour for gunsmithing.
I don't know if people noticed or not, but they are charging double the price for a fitted barrel (Only Polished +$439.00). This SHOULD cost well under $300 (for an M&P or Glock).
C4
I don't understand why people keep asking questions that were covered in the video. I thought Mr. Costa did a good job explaining what was done to the pistol, why it was done and that the slide cuts did not effect reliability and the pistol functioned in sandy/dirty environments.
I am sorry, but drop that gun in any kind of clumpy dirt, mud, loose gravel (have it slide down a hill) etc, you are GOING to run into a problem.
C4
I am interested to see the answer to Grant's questions back in #54, as well as some of the other technical questions posed here.
To me, this is borderline taking advantage of fans who don't know any better. Let's be honest, he's got followers that go beyond appreciating his training content and style.
I'm sure it's difficult for people like him to stay on the 'good guy' side of the line, but there's a difference between creating a quality product sold at a price that the quality and market can justify and simply taking advantage of rubes who ask the "what kind of pants are those" questions on YouTube.
I think LAV pulled some Nighthawk guns a few years ago because he didn't feel the quality justified the price. Kudos to LAV for that, but I don't think many would have done the same thing.
I have nothing against Costa; I don't know him. This is about this signature gun and whether or not it is even close to worth the price.
So, what about this is 3x more functional than a stock M&P or 2x more functional than a slightly modified but very capable M&P variant? And this isn't about buying what you want - the video clearly tries to justify everything about the gun from a functional perspective.
JBecker 72
02-09-13, 10:10
I am sorry, but drop that gun in any kind of clumpy dirt, mud, loose gravel (have it slide down a hill) etc, you are GOING to run into a problem.
C4
Grant, what is your opinion of the Glock 34? I haven't heard of people running into issues with those jamming up due to the milled slide. I never had an issue with mine.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
This is about this signature gun and whether or not it is even close to worth the price.
So, what about this is 3x more functional than a stock M&P or 2x more functional than a slightly modified but very capable M&P variant? .
I don't think this is a fair statement, as you can't measure things like quality quantitatively. Are my holsters 5x as good as the Glock Combat Holster? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure what you'd measure to arrive at the numbers.
At the end of the day, there's about $400-$800 (stretching it big time) of "questionable" pricing. Folks pay a lot of money to free float an AR barrel, get a slightly better trigger, or hide slightly more flash / compensate better. There's no way to measure if these things are worth their price of admission.
Also, lets not kid ourselves... adding the Costa name and company logo DOES cost something. Mr. Costa isn't lending his endorsement free of charge I'm sure, nor should he.
Like someone mentioned, this still comes in well under the price of some other "boutique handguns" that pre-date it. Nothing about this pistol is new, ground breaking, or setting a new standard. It's a combination of many different "modern gun fighting modifications" done by select companies.
For me personally, I don't want those holes in my slide. My own personal "Libra Scale of Life's Bullshit" puts the chance of something getting in there causing Hell as a heavier con than the slight pro of possibly faster splits. I also question about muzzle dip given the modifications, as others have.
But at the end of the day, this is how Mr. Costa runs his weapon. Many will want exactly that. It also looks great, is collectible, made in small numbers, and the price isn't too outrageous. If this is what you're looking for in an M&P pistol and you're a fan of Costa, then it might fit you like a glove. If there's anything you'd change, or you're not a fan of Costa, you can save a few bucks by having the work done individually (but be prepared to wait).
I also think its fair to question some of the slide work, as it isn't presented as being strictly aesthetic and claims to have performance gains. I also don't think it's unrealistic to expect the makers of the pistol to be asked to answer these questions. With all due respect to Doug (which I have a lot of), I don't believe this thread is as much a train wreck as it is the questioning of features rather than taking them at face value.
I have no horse in this race. The pistol looks cool, but isn't my cup of tea. Price isn't the determining factor in that decision.
Grant, what is your opinion of the Glock 34? I haven't heard of people running into issues with those jamming up due to the milled slide. I never had an issue with mine.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Poor choice for a duty/defensive firearm IMHO.
Have your gun slide down a dirt hill or fall into a gravel road and get back tot me. ;)
C4
theblackknight
02-09-13, 11:27
Grant, what is your opinion of the Glock 34? I haven't heard of people running into issues with those jamming up due to the milled slide. I never had an issue with mine.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
The 34 is milled to keep the slide weight right. S&W accomplished this with the Pro by taking more slide off on the sides, which is why tight fitting M&P Pro holsters wont accept a normal FS, it dosent fit.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
High Altitude
02-09-13, 12:15
Grant, what is your opinion of the Glock 34? I haven't heard of people running into issues with those jamming up due to the milled slide. I never had an issue with mine.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2mBJf39L4k
Your post
I hear what you're saying, and I'm not really arguing that it's unacceptable to create signature guns and charge more than the sum total of their features.
The whole thing just seemed a little predatory to me - taking advantage of dim witted gear queers who don't know enough to know that this thing is (or at least is probably) waaay over priced. The folks here on M4C are not a representative subset of the gun owning population. I'd venture to guess that most people watching that video take everything that's said at face value, and have no ability to analyze the features of that gun relative to their needs.
So I suppose I take issue with what seems to be their marketing strategy for this thing - to use Costa's name to jack up the price on some useful and some not so useful upgrades to an M&P and then sell them to idiots. (No, I am not saying that anyone who buys this is an idiot).
I have no issue at all with people buying this who know enough to make an informed decision choosing to pay for it for whatever reason. Compare it to a watch, or car, or whatever. In that regard, to each, his own.
JBecker 72
02-09-13, 13:44
www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2mBJf39L4k
That's awesome! Like I said, I never had issues with mine.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
That's awesome! Like I said, I never had issues with mine.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Did you notice that he shook the gun out BEFORE shooting it. ;)
I don't know if you realize this or not, but Glock doesn't even suggest that you use a 34 or 35 for defensive/LE use. I think they call that a clue?
http://us.glock.com/products/all
C4
theblackknight
02-09-13, 18:35
Anyone would shake it really,just like in the DD torture test videos for the rifles. Ive never seen any evidence as to a 34 being less duty worthy then the 17. SL makes 6004 and basket weave level 2 and 3 holsters for them.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Anyone would shake it really,just like in the DD torture test videos for the rifles. Ive never seen any evidence as to a 34 being less duty worthy then the 17. SL makes 6004 and basket weave level 2 and 3 holsters for them.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Sure, if they have time or can see it. Think dropping your gun in the dark.
You can take an AR and drop it in gravel, slide it down a hill, etc and there is not need to shake it, turn it upside down or inspect it. Just pull the trigger. Not so with a gun with slots big enough for quarters to fit into it.
C4
As I recall it Costa said he's not using his 34 much because of how long it is, adding to draw time. Remember he's using Raven products that ride pretty high.
As far as getting crap in the slide, we racked our weapons off the soft ground/grass and the one or two signature guns kept running.
azoutdoorsman
02-09-13, 19:03
This gun is obviously for recreational shooting. It is not a duty or competition gun. It is for recreational shooters who take carbine classes as a hobby and use $300 triggers in their rifles.
There is nothing wrong with putting out a product that caters to a specific group.
I would never spend $1500 on an M&P, because they already work. And with proper grip and stance, they can be shot quickly and accurately.
Nightstalker865
02-09-13, 21:59
That's stipple job looks amazing.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-10-13, 03:24
The sights and the stippling are fine. The slide cuts seem like more trouble than their worth. A standard M&P is already dang fast and I wouldn't want to tinker too much with the engineering that already went into it. Then again, I am a guy who runs std springs in his 1911s for the same reason.
Dave Sevigny is able to win all kinds of competitions with a Glock with very few modifications. This Costa gun is marketing fluff. Like it, then buy it. This is America. Let's just not pretend that this is better, necessary, or even a good idea.
I had the pleasure of Dave two years in a row back when he was with Glock at their GSSF shoot at South River Gun Club. He did demos of speed shooting and his gun looked more at home on the Death Star than a pistol range!
StrikerFired
02-10-13, 09:46
I actually got to hold and toy around with one of these at a Low/No Light Pistol class that Doug was at. They are so light to hold it's almost freakish!!! I think Costa said it best in the video that this was a pistol set up exactly the way HE wanted it. Now, yes there is a certain element that will buy one of these just because it has his name on it, but in reality that same thing could be said for A LOT of the stuff that is sold in the industry.
I had the pleasure of Dave two years in a row back when he was with Glock at their GSSF shoot at South River Gun Club. He did demos of speed shooting and his gun looked more at home on the Death Star than a pistol range!
He didn't use to shoot Open, and he has won a lot of titles with almost stock Glock 34's. I understand he left Glock for FN and is shooting a prototype FN9 Competition.
Here is some video with a Death Star pistol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrsN80U1gMA
Ok...my opinion has changed and I must offer an appology. I went back to the video and it finally dawned on me.
This is Costa's gun. That is the purpose it serves. It filled a void for him, it suits his needs and wants. He had it made to his requirements for his use and students wanted what he was using. I cannot fault a fella for selling people something they want.
So my appologies. Make the hell out of them and good luck. Not that anyone cares what I think, but I was shitting on it in a public forum so it needed to be addressed.
Ok...my opinion has changed and I must offer an appology. I went back to the video and it finally dawned on me.
This is Costa's gun. That is the purpose it serves. It filled a void for him, it suits his needs and wants. He had it made to his requirements for his use and students wanted what he was using. I cannot fault a fella for selling people something they want.
So my appologies. Make the hell out of them and good luck. Not that anyone cares what I think, but I was shitting on it in a public forum so it needed to be addressed.
A good thing about Costa is he is a little guy. I look like the Stay Puff Marshmallow man compared to him. If the tools and techniques he develops for things like recoil reduction work well for him, they will be awesome for me.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/11/a2a8eben.jpg
I see this pistol as an extension of that logic.
Gunfighter.45
02-11-13, 15:14
Double Post..Sorry
Gunfighter.45
02-11-13, 15:17
Did you notice that he shook the gun out BEFORE shooting it. ;)
I don't know if you realize this or not, but Glock doesn't even suggest that you use a 34 or 35 for defensive/LE use. I think they call that a clue?
http://us.glock.com/products/all
C4
Damn..That sucks my bother in law's department starting with swat are going from D/A only 9mm Sig's 226 to Glock 35's. Transicion started about a week ago.:rolleyes:
MountainRaven
02-11-13, 15:49
Damn..That sucks my bother in law's department starting with swat are going from D/A only 9mm Sig's 226 to Glock 35's. Transicion started about a week ago.:rolleyes:
I believe the 34 and 35 are not uncommon for LE "tac teams". Lighter trigger, longer sight radius, only downside is the open-top slide. Which most of these guys are not going to be rolling around in the mud with their sidearm out.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/12/4u4ahupy.jpg
I saw this in a mag today, thought it would be timely...
JBecker 72
02-11-13, 20:43
Speaking of slides that are milled to expose the barrel... Beretta 92/M9?
Speaking of slides that are milled to expose the barrel... Beretta 92/M9?
You cannot fit loose rocks, coins, etc between the barrel and the slide.
C4
JBecker 72
02-11-13, 20:55
You cannot fit loose rocks, coins, etc between the barrel and the slide.
C4
True.
madisonsfinest
02-11-13, 21:10
Dave Sevigny is damn good! Hadn't watched a video of him shooting for a while. Thanks for sharing that last one
Not a huge M&P fan but I am picking up a couple CORE models. Not a big fan of going overboard on a pistol either, but I like to try a lot of things also. A few things I note....
- Chris clearly states that aesthetics are important to him but not at the cost of reliability, so indeed he does the slide cuts because they also look cool and in his standards for reliability and experiences in vetting the set up, he is comfortable with it. Not my cup o tea but I am not bothered by it in the least.
- Lightening the slide can have some advantages as far as how the pistol operates, moves transitionally and overall weight. Yes you need to get the correct recipe for reliability, Glock does it on their 34/35 and many aftermarket guys do it also for their for fun pistols. Not really sure I would do it as excessively on a defensive pistol.
- I will note that I know units that run Glock 34/35's. Seen my share that have gone through my courses. I also own and have seriously run my 34 and 35 in some adverse training conditions. I have yet to ever see one get stopped due to debris. It wouldn't be my choice for a duty weapon, but it has less to do with the cutout then the size and balance for me. I just prefer the 17/22 over the 34/35.
- I don't think we should think that split seconds are not important in a gun fight.
Watched the youtube video that was posted. Pretty interesting.
I'm no high speeder and wouldn't buy it as its not for me BUT I'd love to run it just to see how it shoots etc.
jonconsiglio
02-12-13, 12:47
- I don't think we should think that split seconds are not important in a gun fight.
The comment I made seems to have garnered some attention. Let me try to clarify.
First off, in response to an earlier reply, I do not believe that my situations (only a few. One ended in a shooting and another came very, very close during an attack with a crowbar) make me an expert in gunfighting. I do not believe they make me more informed than those that are in gunfights regularly overseas.
I do believe my experiences, the videos I've watched and the conversations I've had with others gives me a some understanding of what we face on the street, whether an armed civilian, police officer or working executive protection in the US. I do believe that my limited experience and my extensive study of the subject give me at least a minimal understanding of threats faced in the US.
By all accounts, getting multiple hits on target, accurately and as quickly as possible is the best way to incapacitate your adversary. What I question is if 10% faster splits will help you prevail in any way. Especially when that gain in speed comes from altering gear that engineers designed to work together a certain way.
Split seconds seems to be how everything is decided in a fight. But, I wasn't talking about split seconds, generally speaking, I was talking about split times after a first round hit. In my limited experience, it's the first round hit that matters most then the follow up shots. I've yet to find a situation where the first round was delivered quickly and efficiently that someone lost the fight because their already fast split times were not 10% faster.
I will never argue against shooting fast as long as accuracy is maintained. I will never argue that one should train to deliver multiple rounds as quickly and accurately as possible. I will argue (question may be a better term) that once you've become a proficient shooter that minimal gains in time achieved by lightening a slide will likely not affect the outcome of a fight.
Again, I'm not talking about becoming a better shooter and I'm not talking about training to improve your split times, draw times or target transition times. I'm talking specifically about the supposed decrease in split times by cutting slots in your slide.
If your splits are .17, I don't see how getting that time down to .16 or .15 is going to affect the outcome of a fight. For the record, my career involves carrying a firearm. I carry at home as well. I'm married and have two young children. So I do not, in any way, take this stuff lightly. I train regularly, practice numerous times per week (less now with the ammo shortages, unfortunately), and work hard to be a proficient shooter.
Maybe I'm just not as forward thinking as I should be. Those of you out there that have been in more fights, color me inexperienced if you'd like.
The comment I made seems to have garnered some attention. Let me try to clarify.
First off, in response to an earlier reply, I do not believe that my situations (only a few. One ended in a shooting and another came very, very close during an attack with a crowbar) make me an expert in gunfighting. I do not believe they make me more informed than those that are in gunfights regularly overseas.
I do believe my experiences, the videos I've watched and the conversations I've had with others gives me a some understanding of what we face on the street, whether an armed civilian, police officer or working executive protection in the US. I do believe that my limited experience and my extensive study of the subject give me at least a minimal understanding of threats faced in the US.
By all accounts, getting multiple hits on target, accurately and as quickly as possible is the best way to incapacitate your adversary. What I question is if 10% faster splits will help you prevail in any way. Especially when that gain in speed comes from altering gear that engineers designed to work together a certain way.
Split seconds seems to be how everything is decided in a fight. But, I wasn't talking about split seconds, generally speaking, I was talking about split times after a first round hit. In my limited experience, it's the first round hit that matters most then the follow up shots. I've yet to find a situation where the first round was delivered quickly and efficiently that someone lost the fight because their already fast split times were not 10% faster.
I will never argue against shooting fast as long as accuracy is maintained. I will never argue that one should train to deliver multiple rounds as quickly and accurately as possible. I will argue (question may be a better term) that once you've become a proficient shooter that minimal gains in time achieved by lightening a slide will likely not affect the outcome of a fight.
Again, I'm not talking about becoming a better shooter and I'm not talking about training to improve your split times, draw times or target transition times. I'm talking specifically about the supposed decrease in split times by cutting slots in your slide.
If your splits are .17, I don't see how getting that time down to .16 or .15 is going to affect the outcome of a fight. For the record, my career involves carrying a firearm. I carry at home as well. I'm married and have two young children. So I do not, in any way, take this stuff lightly. I train regularly, practice numerous times per week (less now with the ammo shortages, unfortunately), and work hard to be a proficient shooter.
Maybe I'm just not as forward thinking as I should be. Those of you out there that have been in more fights, color me inexperienced if you'd like.
Split times are an interesting topic for sure. I fully understand about looking at them to measure your speed and keep track of progress.
I once had a convo with a Tier 1 guy about split times (as in did he pay attention to them) and his response was he was never concerned with them WHILE he was killing bad guys. For whatever reason, that always makes me laugh.
For me, I am not willing to heavily modify my carry/HD gun to shave 1/10th of a second off.
YMMV.
C4
jonconsiglio
02-12-13, 13:35
Split times are an interesting topic for sure. I fully understand about looking at them to measure your speed and keep track of progress.
I once had a convo with a Tier 1 guy about split times (as in did he pay attention to them) and his response was he was never concerned with them WHILE he was killing bad guys. For whatever reason, that always makes me laugh.
For me, I am not willing to heavily modify my carry/HD gun to shave 1/10th of a second off.
YMMV.
C4
Funny, I had a similar conversation with a similar type of man that gave a similar answer...
I will not heavily modify my firearms either for a small benefit in split times.
Thanks Grant
Nightstalker865
02-13-13, 22:52
Target transition is much more important.
Target transition is much more important.
As i mentioned in another thread, the cycle times of most modern firearms are faster than a human can actually PRESS the trigger.
There is a HUGE point of diminishing returns here when it comes to tuning pistols regarding slide weight and spring strength. Lets not even get into reliability...
Balance is key when it comes to target transitions. A nose heavy pistol will be slower to whip between targets because it requires more energy to slow the mass down in order to break your shots.
Again, we come back to the point where i hardly believe this pistol was actually engineered...
To Jon and Grant, great points, discussions like this are very much on point as i personally feel people are WAY too wrapped up in stuff that doesnt matter when the reality is that time spent on the range would better serve 99% of these people than the ol emptying of the wallet to buy skill...
I will first say that I respect everyone's opinions and do not think for a minute that this is not taken seriously by those posting here. I too do this for a living and have done so for 23 years. 12 with a full time unit / no other collateral duties. Teaching outside of my unit / agency is also a huge part of what I do and many of my students, LE or Military have been in gunfights so indeed I too take this extremely seriously. I also understand from firsthand experiences how unpleasant things get when we are forced into a situation where the use of force turns deadly. So indeed my life experiences have formed my own opinions just like everyone else.
Having said that, in regards to speed or how fast is fast enough?
I get the concept of "what is another .01 or .02 seconds?" Well how do we quantify that? Indeed my own life experiences does not show anything definitive one way or another but I cannot say it has not been what has allowed me to be typing this today. So lets look at say running an NSR upper COM as quickly as possible while maintaining accuracy. It is generally taught with that mindset for what I think is a very good reason. Granted nothing will take the place of a well placed or accurate shot, however we very much understand that the advantage and much higher likelihood of winning the fight favors the first to get a good effective hit or maybe we are taking what we are offered. So indeed the ability to correctly assess your situation and utilize a correct response that balances your speed of hits with your accuracy that is needed. In other words hit what you think you need to hit as fast as you can do it accurately. Keeping this in mind with say an upper COM target zone your likelihood of perhaps shutting down the system with perhaps a CNS shot increases with multiple rounds delivered as quickly as possible in that upper COM. Or causing enough of a response either physical or mental to stop the fight. Or we also need to consider the ability of the shooter to be able to deliver those shots quickly, assess and perhaps go to an alternate target zone. So if I gain a tenth of a second total with my initial engagement, I may gain that valuable time if I feel the need to go to an alternate target zone. I will take that.
Since we understand the longer that the fight lasts, your odds of success decrease. So if I shut the person down .01 or .02 seconds faster than he pulls his trigger, I will take that every time. In the massive amount of gun fights in this world, to think that wins haven't come down to splits is an unrealistic assumption at best. In reality we would probably never know that information because one guy was taken out of the fight and how do we know what would have happened given another .01 or .05 or whatever? But to think it doesn't happen, perhaps more often than we might think, or to discount it as not credible, is not a reasonable assumption in my mind from a pure statistical or common sense standpoint.
So how fast is good enough? Or better yet, what am I losing by being faster if accuracy and efficacy remain constant? Well if I can perform quicker with similar or even increased accuracy, I will take faster reactions, splits etc, etc, every day of the week. What else do I notice that seems to be common among the shooters that I usually encounter or that I train who do this professionally (not talking competition shooters but the same analogy can apply)? It is for the most part that pretty much the majority of combat or defensive shooters who can run their weapon faster with the same or better accuracy then their respective partners will more than likely....
1 - Spend more time on the range training and practicing.
2 - Have more dedication to their training.
3 - Be more proficient in their overall weapons skills.
4 - They usually place just as much dedication to other skill sets related to combat or defensive shooting and are usually better overall performers and not just with their weapons but in most of their related skill sets.
5 - But even more interesting is that the shooters cognitive thought process seems to work faster. Just like honing any skill. And this is easily seen when applying force on force training as a repetitive part of the training regiment.
Perhaps I might be "over thinking" things and I have been accused of being a bit "too progressive" in the combat shooting or defensive teaching world, especially within the LE community. However I do not take that as a negative as LE in general is resistant to change or often times stuck in the stone age when it comes to TTP's. I have never had a single student, LE or Military who has been in a fight actually say, damn I wish I was slower or trained less so I wasn't as fast, accurate or efficient. For myself, I will take every advantage and ounce of speed / accuracy / efficacy that helps get me home everyday and I try to instill that in those I have the responsibility of training. I guess I am just crazy like that. :)
As i mentioned in another thread, the cycle times of most modern firearms are faster than a human can actually PRESS the trigger.
While true of pistols, with heavier buffers and extra power springs such, there are quite a few people that are extremely close to cyclic while pulling the trigger on ARs. 600 rpm is 10 rps is .10 splits. Some people posting in this very thread can get very close to that at short range.
I think splits do matter, but not at the sacrifice of reliability.
As i mentioned in another thread, the cycle times of most modern firearms are faster than a human can actually PRESS the trigger.
There is a HUGE point of diminishing returns here when it comes to tuning pistols regarding slide weight and spring strength. Lets not even get into reliability...
Balance is key when it comes to target transitions. A nose heavy pistol will be slower to whip between targets because it requires more energy to slow the mass down in order to break your shots.
Again, we come back to the point where i hardly believe this pistol was actually engineered...
To Jon and Grant, great points, discussions like this are very much on point as i personally feel people are WAY too wrapped up in stuff that doesnt matter when the reality is that time spent on the range would better serve 99% of these people than the ol emptying of the wallet to buy skill...
Right on. People attempt to fix a software problem with a hardware fix. Meaning, you cannot buy Costa's shooting ability by simply owning the pistol he designed.
People are much better off buying a $500 dollar pistol and then taking the other $1k and investing it in training and ammo. Doing this will give you your desired goal (which is to be a good shooter).
C4
Surf,
I agree 100% with everything that you said.
My issue is simple.
1. You cannot buy skill.
2. Gear does not make the shooter.
3. I have a HUGE axe to grind with sensationalist bullshit marketing.
4. You deal with professionals. I am sure you come across the random ego driven ninja every now and then but in MY world, the ninja's are more prevalent than the silent professionals.
Ultimately, people can spend their money however they see fit, i just wish more of them would admit that they purchased these pistols simply because they look cool.
Right on. People attempt to fix a software problem with a hardware fix. Meaning, you cannot buy Costa's shooting ability by simply owning the pistol he designed.
People are much better off buying a $500 dollar pistol and then taking the other $1k and investing it in training and ammo. Doing this will give you your desired goal (which is to be a good shooter).
C4
Your absurdity knows no bounds. I must immediately buy this super pistol, grow my beard back, and harness the Costa essence. Training and ammo is for scrubs. ;)
Your absurdity knows no bounds. I must immediately buy this super pistol, grow my beard back, and harness the Costa essence. Training and ammo is for scrubs. ;)
Ya, I know. What was I thinking.
Truth is, Costa would probably prefer to see you show up at one of his classes with a $500 dollar M&P/Glock than buy his signature pistol.
C4
Singlestack Wonder
02-14-13, 11:15
Ya, I know. What was I thinking.
Truth is, Costa would probably prefer to see you show up at one of his classes with a $500 dollar M&P/Glock than buy his signature pistol.
C4
How true!
On another note, perhaps we are missing the real reason for this new pistol. Isn't Costa now pursuing zombies based on recent video's? Perhaps the modifications are aligned for that purpose? ;)
Wow, if a zombie model of this pistol comes out it they should call it the Trifecta.
Costa
A Supergrade pistol
Zombies
The ARFcom servers will probably overload and detonate.
Surf,
I agree 100% with everything that you said.
My issue is simple.
1. You cannot buy skill.
2. Gear does not make the shooter.
3. I have a HUGE axe to grind with sensationalist bullshit marketing.
I agree with the first two, but if I may ask, what is it about the marketing that you dislike?
I think it's Costa's gun and if it works for him, it does. If his gear and style bring new shooters to the table and or motivate experienced shooters to train more, I think that's great. And at this point, considering that this country is divided almost equally in half regarding firearms/gun control, having new people enter the shooting world has its benefits for all of us, not just the new shooter.
Also, I agree with Surf. You never know. Those milliseconds might be the difference between winning and losing or surviving or not. Every situation is different, so it's impossible to say. If I can shave .02 seconds off my time, I'm all for it. And I think we all are. But the question is, for those of us who aren't Chris Costa, do the benefits of his setup outweigh the detriments of it. We can only each answer that for ourselves.
I agree with the first two, but if I may ask, what is it about the marketing that you dislike?
I don't want to speak for him, but in my mind that kind of product/marketing appeals to, and may be purchased by the dudes who buy their shit to show off during their bi-annual trip to the range.
Just my opinion, but I think this forum is rooted in discussing and encouraging modifications that offer a functional advantage and yield an improvement to the practiced shooter. If the software is there, the hardware can enhance a proficient shooters splits, accuracy, etc. The stippling and sights do that, but like others I fail to see how the slide cuts are an improvement.
But it does look ****ing cool :)
jonconsiglio
02-14-13, 14:36
I agree with the first two, but if I may ask, what is it about the marketing that you dislike?
Not to answer for Magsz, but for me.... Doug came into this thread stating it'll allow you to shoot faster follow up shots (closer splits) and transition from target to target faster. Surely that's enough for many buyers, but some of us here require more than as an explanation when buying a firearm, or anything for that matter. We want proof, not lip service or marketing.
No mention of reliability. No mention of the overwhelming reason people buy these, aesthetics.
Honestly, had Doug said "Hell if I know if it's faster, but we did it cause it looks good", I'd have no issue at all.
But, when I asked for something a little more concrete, maybe some shot time numbers even though I know they'd only apply to that one shooter, or even mention that others that shot it all saw speed improvement with NO less reliability, Doug states this thread is a train wreck.
Really though, why should he care? They all sold in minutes. Who needs proof when there's a name attached, right? Look at those with Vickers's name or Hackathorn's name attached. To the point with the key being reliability. Surely money is always part of the equation, just to be clear I'm not saying anyone else does it for no financial gain. Hell, Larry pulled his from Nighthawk after that stuff with the Enforcer and price increase. Shit, that Nighthawk Vickers gun was selling for little more than this M&P when it was first released.
I've run this buy a few guys in the industry (SME's) and all said about the same as me, Grant, Magsz, etc.
The two guys in the HE02 classing running these guns were highly proficient civilian shooters. Definitely not twice a year range types.
This is very much like a debate over why someone would own a Ferrari when a Camry would do the job. Sure Andretti could put the car to its full use just like costa with this gun. But every now and again you run into someone who isn't an F1 pilot (or professional gun guy) who can too. And yes there are plenty of posers who want the Ferrari just cuz it's a Ferrari.
I think the topic has been beaten to death.
The two guys in the HE02 classing running these guns were highly proficient civilian shooters. Definitely not twice a year range types.
This is very much like a debate over why someone would own a Ferrari when a Camry would do the job. Sure Andretti could put the car to its full use just like costa with this gun. But every now and again you run into someone who isn't an F1 pilot (or professional gun guy) who can too. And yes there are plenty of posers who want the Ferrari just cuz it's a Ferrari.
I think the topic has been beaten to death.
Great. I think many would agree they are the exception to the rule.
And that's a terrible comparison. A better one would be the purpose built, no BS Ferrari (or like car) with no radio, no AC, track radials, cage, 5 point harness, etc. Versus the other one with non functional add ons. Mufflers, 20" wheels with low pros, huge tacky spoiler, etc.
You guys basically summed it up.
The only thing i will add is that guns are not fashion accessories and to regard them as pretty possessions is in my mind, stupid.
I can understand having a nice piece of art that you cherish because it took you sixteen months to save up to be able to afford it etc but i personally cherish things for my OWN enjoyment, not to show them off.
Again, it all comes back to ego and the over riding stupidity inherent in people that are driven solely by an over inflated sense of self or purpose.
The machine work on the pistol is awesome, Doug is a whiz with a CNC and i give him credit for that but to say that the pistol is somehow superior to a stock Glock is just fallacious at best.
Also, not to be TOO much of an elitist snob but i dont want people entering into the sport, hobby, lifestyle that are attracted to it because of pistols like this. Shooting guns regardless of the end use isnt glamorous and it never should be. It can be fun, it can be educational, it can be deadly serious but it should never be glamorized.
jonconsiglio
02-14-13, 15:41
The two guys in the HE02 classing running these guns were highly proficient civilian shooters. Definitely not twice a year range types.
This is very much like a debate over why someone would own a Ferrari when a Camry would do the job. Sure Andretti could put the car to its full use just like costa with this gun. But every now and again you run into someone who isn't an F1 pilot (or professional gun guy) who can too. And yes there are plenty of posers who want the Ferrari just cuz it's a Ferrari.
I think the topic has been beaten to death.
For the record, I have a Mercedes and a Jag. Why? Because they are extremely reliable and all maintenance is covered for the first four years of the Mercedes. Sold my M3 a while back. They do many things better than a Camry, but only marginally better for sure. My Jag has a limp mode, meaning that almost anything that goes wrong, it'll still make it home. Including 4 cylinders completely shutting down. I don't think Camry's offer that. That's important with my wife and kids.
Also for the record, I don't have the money I used to, sadly.
As for the two shooters at HE02, did you see how they shot with standard M&Ps for a fair baseline? Maybe, just maybe, they were good shooters as it was and these guns offered nothing extra for them. Seriously, was there a standard M&P comparison made?
Thanks for your opinion that the topic has been beaten to death. But, typically for something to be beaten to death, IT NEEDS TO BE ****ING ANSWERED FIRST.... and, in case you aren't aware, we haven't gotten one.
EDIT - Oh, and as someone who owned a Porsche and a '65 Mustang GT and currently have two friends that own Ferraris and a friend with a Lamborghini Murcielago, guess why most buy them.... Because they have the money and it makes them feel good, NOT because it's any better than anything else out there. Most, besides one who does the Texas Mile every year (the one with the Lamborghini), can barely drive them better than a Camry. As I'd imagine most Costa M&P owners can't shoot them better than a stock M&P.
Also, not to be TOO much of an elitist snob but i dont want people entering into the sport, hobby, lifestyle that are attracted to it because of pistols like this. Shooting guns regardless of the end use isnt glamorous and it never should be. It can be fun, it can be educational, it can be deadly serious but it should never be glamorized.
Hmm..
I understand that many people like guns for many different reasons. Some like hunting, recreational use, some have a more serious purpose in mind like home defense, concealed carry, or whatever. Some just like competitions and collecting, or being a training junkie. But why isn't okay to be glamorous? There are plenty of guns out there that are purpose built firearms, ready for hard use and serious work, that have custom engravings which are then never shot, look great, and are in fact glamorous. Many high end over/under shotguns are what I'd consider glamorous, along with many 1911s.
Furthermore, there are many sports out there that are glamorized and I think that we should do our part to get people to see the shooting sports in the same way. Football, baseball, baseball and hockey are sports where people play around to have fun and some are better than others but it's just a game. Shooting is different, it's more important, it's a way of life. Shooting can keep you and your family fed and safe, and glamorizing the skills behind shooting, and the use of firearms is a good thing. If it was more glamorous, more people would embrace it, and the more that embrace it, the better.
Hmm..
I understand that many people like guns for many different reasons. Some like hunting, recreational use, some have a more serious purpose in mind like home defense, concealed carry, or whatever. Some just like competitions and collecting, or being a training junkie. But why isn't okay to be glamorous? There are plenty of guns out there that are purpose built firearms, ready for hard use and serious work, that have custom engravings which are then never shot, look great, and are in fact glamorous. Many high end over/under shotguns are what I'd consider glamorous, along with many 1911s.
Furthermore, there are many sports out there that are glamorized and I think that we should do our part to get people to see the shooting sports in the same way. Football, baseball, baseball and hockey are sports where people play around to have fun and some are better than others but it's just a game. Shooting is different, it's more important, it's a way of life. Shooting can keep you and your family fed and safe, and glamorizing the skills behind shooting, and the use of firearms is a good thing. If it was more glamorous, more people would embrace it, and the more that embrace it, the better.
You're definitely not wrong and like i said, my opinion is pretty harsh.
I suppose my statement must be regarded in the context of the use of the particular object in question.
Does that clarify my position a bit? I guess this comes back to the whole snake oil salesman argument.
I certainly would give that pistol a look if I had the chance. Might even consider a impulse buy.....
jonconsiglio
02-14-13, 16:06
I certainly would give that pistol a look if I had the chance. Might even consider a impulse buy.....
Only because you're an hour of my hometown of Greensburg will I accept that reply!
:)
As for the two shooters at HE02, did you see how they shot with standard M&Ps for a fair baseline? Maybe, just maybe, they were good shooters as it was and these guns offered nothing extra for them. Seriously, was there a standard M&P comparison made?
Thanks for your opinion that the topic has been beaten to death. But, typically for something to be beaten to death, IT NEEDS TO BE ****ING ANSWERED FIRST.... and, in case you aren't aware, we haven't gotten one.
EDIT - Oh, and as someone who owned a Porsche and a '65 Mustang GT and currently have two friends that own Ferraris and a friend with a Lamborghini Murcielago, guess why most buy them.... Because they have the money and it makes them feel good, NOT because it's any better than anything else out there. Most, besides one who does the Texas Mile every year (the one with the Lamborghini), can barely drive them better than a Camry. As I'd imagine most Costa M&P owners can't shoot them better than a stock M&P.
We all shot a bunch of stuff and they shot well with everything. And as we don't break out rulers to measure group size and Costa doesn't run timed drills any more I'd imagine they might make a difference in the same fashion as you'd imagine they don't.
And at the time of the class, there was at least one on gunbroker USED. So good for that guy knowing that the gun wasn't for him and unloading it.
We all shot a bunch of stuff and they shot well with everything. And as we don't break out rulers to measure group size and Costa doesn't run timed drills any more I'd imagine they might make a difference in the same fashion as you'd imagine they don't.
And at the time of the class, there was at least one on gunbroker USED. So good for that guy knowing that the gun wasn't for him and unloading it.
Interesting. How does he measure performance?
C4
jonconsiglio
02-14-13, 16:18
We all shot a bunch of stuff and they shot well with everything. And as we don't break out rulers to measure group size and Costa doesn't run timed drills any more I'd imagine they might make a difference in the same fashion as you'd imagine they don't.
And at the time of the class, there was at least one on gunbroker USED. So good for that guy knowing that the gun wasn't for him and unloading it.
Bro, I'm certainly not saying that they offer ZERO advantage. But, at what cost? Also, what is the advantage, if there is one? Apparently, Doug at ATEI doesn't think us worthy of an answer.
I heard of one selling on gunbroker for a LOT more than they sell for new, but the guy that told me may have been mistaken which model it was.
Just to be extra clear, I'm not question Costa as a teacher or shooter in any way here, he seems like a decent guy that can teach well. Just the statements made by ATEI that it makes your splits and transitions faster without ever telling us how they proved that.
I'd imagine this thing will run fine in a class, but when put to the environment or rough treatment in a fight, I'm curious how they'd hold up. If they're not a carry gun, by Doug's statement their not a competition gun and obviously would likely never be approved as a duty weapon, then what is their intended role? Training?
I don't understand why people selling these things refuse to back their product. That's what really gets me here, not the gun itself.
As for the class, most of the real deal guys I've trained with ALL talk about group size and time. Wonder what has changed. Howe has you run through line drills keeping bullets in a row, etc. That's the stuff that makes ME a better shooter.
Combat effective zone on a VTAC target. Pardon me in the exact terminology of the target but the inside box of and IDPA is the goal with the next box out considered acceptable. Outside of that youre taping and getting bad looks.
Most of his strings were based around 4 rounds or multiples of that (4prone, 4 kneeling...)
Even with that we still shot near 2200 rounds in 3 days. Remember also that HE02 is heavy on weapon manipulation not marksmanship. It's gun problem solving.
Most, besides one who does the Texas Mile every year (the one with the Lamborghini), can barely drive them better than a Camry.
One day I'll have a Switzer/Underground Racing GTR. And I will definitely come all the way to TX to run the mile. :cool:
I would argue they are a carry gun. That's the whole point of the front serrations. Racking it off a tire or something when your down to one hand (not just press checking). Same with the top serrations.
I don't get too worried about triggers. I just learn them. But to the discerning user the trigger is not stock and maybe a value.
I concur with Doug that its recoil control works. Maybe it's counter intuitive or unorthodox but that thing stayed damn near dead flat. It just did. The gun was also very light (as you'd imagine with that much metal removed) also adding to its carry-ability.
Combat effective zone on a VTAC target. Pardon me in the exact terminology of the target but the inside box of and IDPA is the goal with the next box out considered acceptable. Outside of that youre taping and getting bad looks.
Most of his strings were based around 4 rounds or multiples of that (4prone, 4 kneeling...)
Even with that we still shot near 2200 rounds in 3 days. Remember also that HE02 is heavy on weapon manipulation not marksmanship. It's gun problem solving.
So if I keep rounds in the A zone (which is an 8" circle) I am awesome and as long as I am in Zone B (12X18" box) I am good?
What is the farthest distance shot??
C4
So if I keep rounds in the A zone (which is an 8" circle) I am awesome and as long as I am in Zone B (12X18" box) I am good?
What is the farthest distance shot??
C4
What Costa would say if you're getting all A zone hits when the target is a B zone (and what he told me once) is that you're shooting too slowly. His idea of acceptable accuracy is to shoot as fast as you can until your groups spread outside of the target area.
If you're shooting tiny little groups, you're either not shooting fast enough, you need to modify your weapon so it can be shot faster, or maybe you're just at your max speed already and probably don't need to be taking the class.
I wouldn't use those terms and neither would he. You either are meeting the goal or need work.
Ranges from 5 yards to 50.
What Costa would say is that you're shooting too slowly. His idea of acceptable accuracy is to shoot as fast as you can until your groups spread outside of the target area. If you're shooting tiny little holes, you're either not shooting fast enough, need to modify your weapon so it can be shot faster, or you should be teaching the class lol.
This.
Costa misses too.
I wouldn't use those terms and neither would he. You either are meeting the goal or need work.
Ranges from 5 yards to 50.
Ok, so no terms. A zone and B zone hits are good.
For advanced shooters A zone hits @ 50 are reasonable.
C4
Ok, so no terms. A zone and B zone hits are good.
For advanced shooters A zone hits @ 50 are reasonable.
C4
Yes. And I agree.
I'd never shot handgun from 50 yards before so that was an interesting experience. (Range limitations, not desire).
What Costa would say if you're getting all A zone hits when the target is a B zone (and what he told me once) is that you're shooting too slowly. His idea of acceptable accuracy is to shoot as fast as you can until your groups spread outside of the target area.
If you're shooting tiny little groups, you're either not shooting fast enough, need to modify your weapon so it can be shot faster, or you should be teaching the class lol.
I can understand shooting too slow. A Tier 1 guy once advised me that in a gun fight, no one will EVER need to tell you to shoot faster.
Many years ago, the USA did a study about accuracy in a gun fight. They determined that your group size will double or triple under stress. So if I am shooting 15" groups on the square range (which would still keep me in ZONE B), under stress, I would be shooting 30" to 45" groups. These group sizes now have effectively taken me off my intended target.
So if you cannot shoot groups that you can cover your hand (at any speed, at any distance) on the square range, there is a good chance you will be off target in a gun fight.
Food for thought....
C4
I don't want to speak for him, but in my mind that kind of product/marketing appeals to, and may be purchased by the dudes who buy their shit to show off during their bi-annual trip to the range.
Just my opinion, but I think this forum is rooted in discussing and encouraging modifications that offer a functional advantage and yield an improvement to the practiced shooter. If the software is there, the hardware can enhance a proficient shooters splits, accuracy, etc. The stippling and sights do that, but like others I fail to see how the slide cuts are an improvement.
But it does look ****ing cool :)
The funny thing is that I don't think it looks that cool. I get what Grant is saying about buying a stock X and spending the rest on training or ammo, if there was any to be bought right now. But I doubt the guys you're describing would go to the range any more often even if they bought a stock X. They're people that hang on and want the cool whatever t shirt. It happens in everything.
Furthermore, one of the things that keeps anti gun politicians in check is that 50% of the population are against any new bans. Politics is a popularity contest, watch those numbers get depleted and you'll see a heavier assault on our 2A rights. Getting new shooters, whether they're serious or recreational into the fold is, IMO, a good thing.
Not to answer for Magsz, but for me.... Doug came into this thread stating it'll allow you to shoot faster follow up shots (closer splits) and transition from target to target faster. Surely that's enough for many buyers, but some of us here require more than as an explanation when buying a firearm, or anything for that matter. We want proof, not lip service or marketing.
No mention of reliability. No mention of the overwhelming reason people buy these, aesthetics.
Honestly, had Doug said "Hell if I know if it's faster, but we did it cause it looks good", I'd have no issue at all.
But, when I asked for something a little more concrete, maybe some shot time numbers even though I know they'd only apply to that one shooter, or even mention that others that shot it all saw speed improvement with NO less reliability, Doug states this thread is a train wreck.
Really though, why should he care? They all sold in minutes. Who needs proof when there's a name attached, right? Look at those with Vickers's name or Hackathorn's name attached. To the point with the key being reliability. Surely money is always part of the equation, just to be clear I'm not saying anyone else does it for no financial gain. Hell, Larry pulled his from Nighthawk after that stuff with the Enforcer and price increase. Shit, that Nighthawk Vickers gun was selling for little more than this M&P when it was first released.
I've run this buy a few guys in the industry (SME's) and all said about the same as me, Grant, Magsz, etc.
And I understand what you've been asking for the entire time. You want quantifiable facts to support what exactly it does. And it seems like you're questioning ATEI and not necessarily their marketing strategy, but the facts. I don't disagree with that.
And he should care because of long term business strategy. This is just one pistol. And unless you're going to make your fortune on one short term item, you have to establish a factual track record of some type.
What Costa would say if you're getting all A zone hits when the target is a B zone (and what he told me once) is that you're shooting too slowly. His idea of acceptable accuracy is to shoot as fast as you can until your groups spread outside of the target area.
If you're shooting tiny little groups, you're either not shooting fast enough, you need to modify your weapon so it can be shot faster, or maybe you're just at your max speed already and probably don't need to be taking the class.
How do you verify improvement though? The target tells me if I'm accurate; the timer tells me how fast I'm running it. Without one or the other, I loose the ability to completely measure my performance and improvement on my performance. Did I miss something?
Shoot as fast as you can without leaving the box. Once you start leaving the box youve left your combat accuracy goal.
What's important to remember is that that's not a ceiling. It tells you need to work on getting that one flyer back in the box. Then work on the second flyer. Setting a time goal is arbitrary. Maybe you only have one second to get as many hits as you can. That might mean you only get three shots. Maybe you'll have three (god elephant that bad guy). Maybe you can get 12. It's feel based not clock based.
Furthermore, one of the things that keeps anti gun politicians in check is that 50% of the population are against any new bans. Politics is a popularity contest, watch those numbers get depleted and you'll see a heavier assault on our 2A rights. Getting new shooters, whether they're serious or recreational into the fold is, IMO, a good thing.
Good point, one I hadn't considered. New shooters is a great thing, but ideally they'd get into it for what many here would consider the 'right' reasons (defense, proficiency, mastery, etc), and not because it looks neat. Quality of new membership can be debated as well, based on one's reasons for joining our little group.
The beginnings of me getting into it is because my wife has had a violent stalker for the better part of a decade. He is now paroled and views me as the dude that stole 'his girl'. Thus, defense and proficiency are on my mind first and foremost, coolness factor falls near last. But things like the Costa M&P do catch my eye, and may be worth it to me, if they weren't 300% more expensive than the factory model.
jonconsiglio
02-14-13, 17:55
The beginnings of me getting into it is because my wife has had a violent stalker for the better part of a decade. He is now paroled and views me as the dude that stole 'his girl'. Thus, defense and proficiency are on my mind first and foremost, coolness factor falls near last. But things like the Costa M&P do catch my eye, and may be worth it to me, if they weren't 300% more expensive than the factory model.
told you before bro, instead of your trip to visit me, I'll make a trip to Ohio and we'll visit with him... ;)
Edit - thanks to everyone for their input so far. Whether I agree or disagree, I'm glad we all have a place to discuss these things, regardless of how big or small the issue.
I'm still waiting on an answer. I have a feeling I'll never get one. (edited - I removed the emotional response)
Edit 2 - interesting thing on training.... I have some time at home and occasionally watch my 3 year old boy since my wife decided to go back to school. So, I subscribed to Panteao and have watched a number of videos (I spend a lot of time training and attended classes/schools, videos are just a pass time supplement - just to be clear). I've always like Paul Howe and watched his four or five videos. Everything he did with a par time was interesting. He'd shoot it slow just to make par first. Then speed up to push himself, but slow right back down to make sure he was doing it properly.
Then, he has his 25 yard drills. He wants certain things at 7, then pushed it to 25 to pick up any issues. Many issues can be seen in much less than 8". Then, the issue is assessed and corrected, brought back to 7 then 25.
He has a set of three targets on top of each other. During drills, you shoot each target from a different position or distance. Maybe a ready position, then from the holster, then kneeling. You then check for differences to see if mistakes are made in different positions.
Something I've picked up over the years with different trainers.... Take all the SEALs (some from DEVGRU) like TigerSwan and Defoor and Delta guys like Howe, Vickers, McNamara and Lamb and you can pick up a trend. Extreme accuracy is a common thing between all these guys. Of course pushing yourself at speed is a major thing as well, but only after accuracy. Then, if you start throwing shots, they slow it back down and check your work.
Paul Howe says many times, you have to earn it. If he's doing a ball and dummy drill (kind of) he doesn't just mix it up. You keep getting an empty gun until you earn a live round. You have to earn speed. It's slow and accurate. I'm not just talking about some pistol or carbine 1 either. This is a common theme and at least for me, makes me a more accurate shooter.
Just something I noticed.
told you before bro, instead of your trip to visit me, I'll make a trip to Ohio and we'll visit with him... ;)
Edit - thanks to everyone for their input so far. Whether I agree or disagree, I'm glad we all have a place to discuss these things, regardless of how big or small the issue.
I'm still waiting on an answer. I have a feeling I'll never get one. That in itself tells me where to recommend others for their RMR milling work, sadly. That, for me, is the biggest takeaway from this thread.
Edit 2 - interesting thing on training.... I have some time at home and occasionally watch my 3 year old boy since my wife decided to go back to school. So, I subscribed to Panteao and have watched a number of videos (I spend a lot of time training and attended classes/schools, videos are just a pass time supplement - just to be clear). I've always like Paul Howe and watched his four or five videos. Everything he did with a par time was interesting. He'd shoot it slow just to make par first. Then speed up to push himself, but slow right back down to make sure he was doing it properly.
Then, he has his 25 yard drills. He wants certain things at 7, then pushed it to 25 to pick up any issues. Many issues can be seen in much less than 8". Then, the issue is assessed and corrected, brought back to 7 then 25.
He has a set of three targets on top of each other. During drills, you shoot each target from a different position or distance. Maybe a ready position, then from the holster, then kneeling. You then check for differences to see if mistakes are made in different positions.
Something I've picked up over the years with different trainers.... Take all the SEALs (some from DEVGRU) like TigerSwan and Defoor and Delta guys like Howe, Vickers, McNamara and Lamb and you can pick up a trend. Extreme accuracy is a common thing between all these guys. Of course pushing yourself at speed is a major thing as well, but only after accuracy. Then, if you start throwing shots, they slow it back down and check your work.
Paul Howe says many times, you have to earn it. If he's doing a ball and dummy drill (kind of) he doesn't just mix it up. You keep getting an empty gun until you earn a live round. You have to earn speed. It's slow and accurate. I'm not just talking about some pistol or carbine 1 either. This is a common theme and at least for me, makes me a more accurate shooter.
Just something I noticed.
Accuracy is king! Anyone can shoot fast. Very few people can shoot fast AND accurately.
Accuracy should always be taught first.
From my own experience, practicing accuracy (at slow speed with lots of reps) builds speed. For the record, I have never worked on being fast, but it has come (on its own) naturally.
C4
theblackknight
02-14-13, 18:37
Shoot as fast as you can without leaving the box. Once you start leaving the box youve left your combat accuracy goal.
What's important to remember is that that's not a ceiling. It tells you need to work on getting that one flyer back in the box. Then work on the second flyer. Setting a time goal is arbitrary. Maybe you only have one second to get as many hits as you can. That might mean you only get three shots. Maybe you'll have three (god elephant that bad guy). Maybe you can get 12. It's feel based not clock based.
No, it is most certainly clock based if you care about objective performance in training as a way of improving . Your shots are dependent on target range, movement, size(full target,cover?)etc. If you shoot bill drills at 3-50y, youll know how pretty good how many rounds per second you can pump out while staying inside the A zone.
One pitfall of the whole "accuracy for speed" thing is people thinking that if all their rounds are in the A zone, they arnt pushing themselves. This is dumb. It depends on how fast you did it. WHY you push shots in the c zone is to find the jagged edge of how much sight picture you need to flash before sending the next shot. What you are trying to get to is being about to shoot A's faster then last week. You are not in a permanent mode of "well if I need more accuracy, Im forced to slow down".
sent from mah gun,using my sights
told you before bro, instead of your trip to visit me, I'll make a trip to Ohio and we'll visit with him... ;)
Ha the time may come for that. He's been quiet for about a year now. Last interaction was a call we got from a friend who was staying at our house and home during work hours. Apparently she saw someone (who she assumed was a neighbor) on our back fence line video taping the back of the house/back door. Our neighbor at the time was older, no husband/no men at the house, and female. And this videotaper matched the description. That, and the feeling I was being followed around the holidays. I always take a few detours on the way home when I get that feeling.
Accuracy is king! Anyone can shoot fast. Very few people can shoot fast AND accurately.
Accuracy should always be taught first.
From my own experience, practicing accuracy (at slow speed with lots of reps) builds speed. For the record, I have never worked on being fast, but it has come (on its own) naturally.
C4
Agreed. If accuracy is worked on with repetition and (good) practice, speed seems to come as a byproduct.
You've seen in person how ugly it can get when I focus solely on speed. :laugh:
theblackknight
02-14-13, 19:00
Order of attention dosent equal importance. They are equal even if one is a by product of the other. Just as a fast miss does you 0 good, a accurate shot that never leaves the barrel bc you are fcking dead got you a bad outcome. People will surely speed up in a gunfight, but those who knew this and trained to be accurate at that speed are better prepared for reality.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Surf,
I agree 100% with everything that you said.
My issue is simple.
1. You cannot buy skill.
2. Gear does not make the shooter.
3. I have a HUGE axe to grind with sensationalist bullshit marketing.
4. You deal with professionals. I am sure you come across the random ego driven ninja every now and then but in MY world, the ninja's are more prevalent than the silent professionals.
Ultimately, people can spend their money however they see fit, i just wish more of them would admit that they purchased these pistols simply because they look cool.I also agree here and just to clarify my position and my lengthy post on splits or split seconds, I am not saying I am a fan of the Costa M&P and going to those extremes on your pistol when it has defensive uses in mind. I pretty much like a standard Glock with new sights, extended slide stop, 5.5 maybe minus connector and standard spring. That is pretty much it. I agree that it should be the shooters skill that trumps anything.
I come across the random ego driven ninja more than enough. ;)
I can understand shooting too slow. A Tier 1 guy once advised me that in a gun fight, no one will EVER need to tell you to shoot faster.
Many years ago, the USA did a study about accuracy in a gun fight. They determined that your group size will double or triple under stress. So if I am shooting 15" groups on the square range (which would still keep me in ZONE B), under stress, I would be shooting 30" to 45" groups. These group sizes now have effectively taken me off my intended target.
So if you cannot shoot groups that you can cover your hand (at any speed, at any distance) on the square range, there is a good chance you will be off target in a gun fight.
Food for thought....
C4
Right, but wasn't it also proven that stress, whether from competing or in combat, has roughly the same effect on your performance?
I might be totally off track on that, but I've heard it a lot.
Only because you're an hour of my hometown of Greensburg will I accept that reply!
:)
Lol. Sometimes in a person's life a couple of hundred for what is likely a good pistol is not a big deal. Heck, I have paid twice that for Super Bowl tickets for a "fleeting moment" when my team had a 50% probability of winning. This at least has resale value.
jonconsiglio
02-15-13, 08:52
Right, but wasn't it also proven that stress, whether from competing or in combat, has roughly the same effect on your performance?
I might be totally off track on that, but I've heard it a lot.
You might be right, but I'm just not sure about that one. Stress during training certainly isn't a bad thing, just like exerting yourself before a drill. But, there's a big difference between competition/training stress and a true fight or flight response. I'm not a doctor, so I don't really know what the true difference is, but the body reacts to a fear for life and competition/training stress two different ways.
On the surface, the results appear the same... High heart rate, tremors, etc., but inside the body things are quite different. How we handle these different stressors can result in very different outcomes.
I have a fear of public speaking. My heart rate spikes and I all but freak out. I don't compete much, but it certainly stresses me out. In a fight for my life, my heart rate spiked as well, but things went into super slow motion yet all happened in a blink. I barely remember the sound of gunfire inside of the 4runner, but I remember the smell like it happened this morning. I can't really explain it correctly, but it was very different than anything I've ever experienced.
Fast forward 12 years to another situation and I handled that same stress completely different. This was surely due to years of trainng since the first event. The second did not result in shots fired.while very different, it still doesn't compare to anything else I've experienced aside from a motorcycle accident at 70mph.
I typed a lot more than I intended! The point is, at least for me, the stress of an unexpected encounter in real life is very different than stresses found during training or competition and my performance also was very different. Not to toot my own horn, but in the most recent encounter, I reacted like my best when training. When experience training stress, things don't go that well. Again, this is MY experience only. I may be par for the course, or very unique.
Right, but wasn't it also proven that stress, whether from competing or in combat, has roughly the same effect on your performance?
I might be totally off track on that, but I've heard it a lot.
Not that I am aware of. I have never been afraid of a timer. I am however afraid of bullets.
C4
Right, but wasn't it also proven that stress, whether from competing or in combat, has roughly the same effect on your performance?
I might be totally off track on that, but I've heard it a lot.
Id like to know how that conclusion was reached...
Good point, one I hadn't considered. New shooters is a great thing, but ideally they'd get into it for what many here would consider the 'right' reasons (defense, proficiency, mastery, etc), and not because it looks neat. Quality of new membership can be debated as well, based on one's reasons for joining our little group.
The beginnings of me getting into it is because my wife has had a violent stalker for the better part of a decade. He is now paroled and views me as the dude that stole 'his girl'. Thus, defense and proficiency are on my mind first and foremost, coolness factor falls near last. But things like the Costa M&P do catch my eye, and may be worth it to me, if they weren't 300% more expensive than the factory model.
Sorry to hear about your situation.
Id like to know how that conclusion was reached...
In fairness to Koshinn it's a theory that got some play on the internet awhile back. I don't know where it started, but I remember reading about it.
IMO, the two things that are missing in the equation are; first, fear management. Anyone that's been in any situation where someone is trying to do great bodily harm to them or been in a situation like sliding a motorcycle at 70mph can tell you that fear management is a skill in itself. Different people react to fear differently. Some are focused and stay on track, some completely panic and there are numerous reactions between those two as well. And managing fear, to an extent, is a learned process. The trick is putting yourself into situations where you have to manage fear, but you're not likely to get killed. Because that defeats the purpose and that goes beyond training. Second, you don't get the experience of working against a live body. How can you in firearms training, right? And live bodies seldom do what you want them to. This is why many, including I, have said that firearms training should only be a part of your defense training. You miss necessary training components. I think MMA is one of the best ways to get some of this training in. Nothing like walking into a cage where someone is going to try to beat you into submission. From experience I can tell you that you learn a lot about yourself when you're fighting with broken or cracked ribs or with a broken arm or with blood pouring into your eyes etc. It's an illuminating experience. IIRC, Pat McNamara recommends boxing for the same reason and that's fine as well. I just prefer MMA because there are less restraints.
Having said all that, I'll also say what I alluded to earlier which is that I believe that firearms training with a clock is absolutely essential. It does add stress to your training and as stated earlier is a tool, along with your targets, to measure your progress. My belief is that speed and accuracy intertwine to the point that they almost become one skill and that this is the best way to work that skill. If competition shooting is how you hone your shooting skills, I think it's great.
Just my opinion and YMMV.
I do not have any studies or data that suggests competition stress and a critical incident stress are similar in regards to performance. I will however note from years of training and doing, that the repetition of training or performing under stress definitely has a positive effect on long term performance. I cannot clearly make a distinction between competitive stress or critical incident stress as one or the other being more effective at increased performance from a technical standpoint. However the real world lessons learned from the stress of a critical incident cannot be replicated 100%.
I cannot speak for anyone other than myself, but I will say that in the instances where it has hit the fan, my reaction has always been strangely calm and relaxed. I will note that I find more stress in all the events leading up to those moments. I definitely have that "mother ****er" moment, but it is more of a "OK, so you want to do it like that" response, but at the moment it goes south I get a calm feeling. I think because the anticipation of the unknown is more tense than processing what I know to now be happening around me and then training and experience heavily weigh in. Don't get me wrong as emotions of fear, etc, exist and I do not have a death wish, but I find myself staying relaxed.
When looking at others in the same situation, perhaps in the very same incident as it is unfolding, I definitely see different sides of things in others reactions. Some people get calm, others react with a more animated response. Effectiveness of the individual to perform does not necessarily decrease, it is just the manner in how they react to the stimulus is different.
I will also note that I am the same way when it comes to friendly competition, no matter what the sport or topic. Nervous anticipation prior, but calm when the bell rings, or buzzer goes off. I will note however that when it comes to friendly competition I am more stressed prior to the event than when I am working. I sometimes find it a bit strange, yet I understand why I am like this.
Having given my thoughts above, I tend to surmise that technical performance skills increase under training stress and under real world critical incident stress. So yes the stress of training be it a buzzer, competition or force on force all have positive effects on performance, however you cannot reasonably expect that someone who performs at a high level under a controlled environment stress situation will perform well under real world, critical incident stress. On the other hand, it may be just as incorrect to assume that someone will perform amazingly well if they come under critical incident stresses occasionally, but do not train with high levels of correct repetition under controlled stress situations.
I will also surmise that if no one has ever been in a critical incident situation that stress induced training be it a buzzer or force on force will have big benefits. Not saying that a buzzer or force on force will be the same type of stress but it is a lot easier, or more practical to get stress from a buzzer or competition than from trying to get force on force training. Also a buzzer or competition can not practically replicate situations that give force on force a huge advantage when it comes to a critical incident.
In conclusion, I get more stress from competition than I do from going to work, putting on armor and responding to a weapons related call out. This may be perhaps due in part that I do not do organized competition so perhaps I feel more comfortable in what I do more of on a regular basis. Also competitive stress or a buzzer can be of high value provided it is a part of a larger training program that a shooter follows.
jonconsiglio
02-15-13, 13:19
I cannot speak for anyone other than myself, but I will say that in the instances where it has hit the fan, my reaction has always been strangely calm and relaxed. I will note that I find more stress in all the events leading up to those moments. I definitely have that "mother ****er" moment, but it is more of a "OK, so you want to do it like that" response, but at the moment it goes south I get a calm feeling. I think because the anticipation of the unknown is more tense than processing what I know to now be happening around me and then training and experience heavily weigh in. Don't get me wrong as emotions of fear, etc, exist and I do not have a death wish, but I find myself staying relaxed.
When looking at others in the same situation, perhaps in the very same incident as it is unfolding, I definitely see different sides of things in others reactions. Some people get calm, others react with a more animated response. Effectiveness of the individual to perform does not necessarily decrease, it is just the manner in how they react to the stimulus is different.
Aside from my first experience ever, this is exactly how it is for me. Through the situations, I stay completely calm and clear headed, though certainly ramped up. It's not until afterwards that I really feel anything. I kind of just go numb to what's happening and, without thinking about it, just focus on getting things done.
While I carry a firearm for work and I've been in a handful of stressful situations, it's been my personal life that has seen the most fighting.
Just watching videos of military and law enforcement gives you a good idea of how wide the reaction spac can be. You can go from an officer charging a suspect that is shooting at them (and left his female partner paralyzed), to soldiers almost joking about it, to a private contractor running away and hiding in a ditch...
This is why I've become so outspoken about training the mind. Mindset will make all the difference. I see so many people chasing better gear but don't hear about all that many focusing on mindset and actually fighting instead of shooting.
My buddy Darryl (nyeti - that is co-owner of HItS) and I talk about this all the time and how overlooked it is. In my opinion, this is what makes all the difference in the way we handle situations.
When it comes to training, I'm all for exerting yourself before running a drill so you understand how you'll run your gun with a high heart rate and labored breathing... I just hate to see people think this is the same thing as fight or flight...
jonconsiglio
02-15-13, 13:23
It would be nice if more threads were like this. Threads focused on mindset, fighting with a firearm, the type of training that will actually be a benefit, etc.l would be such a great advantage compared to all the "which is better?" threads.
For others in this thread....It would be nice if we could stay on subject instead of bashing a guy. :rolleyes:
With the lighter slide and 20lb recoil spring the gun cycles faster.
It's lighter and you can transition from target to target faster and has less muzzle flip. It's also lighter to carry is that means anything.
What would the cost be to lower the ejection port on a Glock 17? What would be the recommended recoil spring weight?
Magic_Salad0892
02-15-13, 15:44
It would be nice if more threads were like this. Threads focused on mindset, fighting with a firearm, the type of training that will actually be a benefit, etc.l would be such a great advantage compared to all the "which is better?" threads.
Here's a question:
Would different guns be a wiser choice for people with different reactions to stress?
Like a DAO, or SAO gun, DA/SA, or Safe Action. HK mag release v. Browning magazine release. Etc.
jonconsiglio
02-15-13, 17:32
Here's a question:
Would different guns be a wiser choice for people with different reactions to stress?
Like a DAO, or SAO gun, DA/SA, or Safe Action. HK mag release v. Browning magazine release. Etc.
You know, we'd have to look at training first and use it as a constant. If the training is high, I don't think it would make much difference. If the trainng is low, then I think it could. There was some discussion on this on Lightfighter, but it didn't refer to the way others dealt with stress.
One thing about the HK LEM is that you have to commit to pulling that trigger. For many of us here, I don't think that would be much benefit over a Glock or M&P. But, take a new officer who has little interest in firearms in a small department with a small training budget, maybe it would.
Look at that female officer covering the guy being cuffed then discharges a round from her Glock just niches from his head, negligently. Would that have happened with an HK LEM or a DA/SA?
Personally, my finger stays off the trigger unless I'm ready/willing to fire. Unfortunately, we can't say that about everybody. Startle someone with little trainng and their finger n the trigger, it's entirely possible that the difference in triggers could stop a negligent discharge. But then, we're looking at bandaids intend of cures.
One thing about reaction to stress.... It's not something that's easily measured in a controlled environment. In training, someone may do everything right. In real life, if not practiced regular, that's where things can really go wrong.
I HATE to use this example, but on a static range, I doubt Deputy Dinkheller only made 1 hit out of 16 rounds fired. Add the stress of someone shooting at you (and a possibility some consider, his mindset being diminished just weeks prior when reprimanded for drawing his weapon on a traffic stop) and things change, quickly.
Magic_Salad0892
02-15-13, 18:09
/snip
That seems about right, but here's what made me think of it.
You know how under stress some people will short stroke a shotgun when they charge it?
Well. I've actually seen somebody short stroke a DAO trigger under stress. Like they didn't pull it all the way back. Dude pulled the trigger like 5 times, and couldn't pull a shot off. He thought he wasn't getting a good primer strike so he kept pulling the trigger.
P229 DAK.
I think for people who don't have the money, or time to train then it may be an okay band-aid. (And it IS a band aid. You're right.)
...first, fear management... I think MMA is one of the best ways to get some of this training in. Nothing like walking into a cage where someone is going to try to beat you into submission....
Just my opinion and YMMV.
I'm with ya on this and have been a huge proponent of 'getting outside of your comfort zone' with some good hand to hand against another person.
I enjoy boxing and I train off and on as interest/motivation dictates (I'm not serious about it and only do it for enjoyment).
It's all fun and games when light sparring with guys you know, but when a stranger shows up on open gym day, you're gonna see how well you can stick to your training and not get hit.
And yeah, getting in a cage with some MMA fighters is definitely stressful. When there's 15 guys/gals around the cage watching, you hear that gate slam shut, you gotta have your screwed on right.
Bottom line is: Panicking is just not an option. You have to keep your hands up, your eyes open, keep movin', be aware of where you are and don't let the other guy push you into a corner.
That's a valuable tool in any situation..
I do not have any studies or data that suggests competition stress and a critical incident stress are similar in regards to performance. I will however note from years of training and doing, that the repetition of training or performing under stress definitely has a positive effect on long term performance. I cannot clearly make a distinction between competitive stress or critical incident stress as one or the other being more effective at increased performance from a technical standpoint. However the real world lessons learned from the stress of a critical incident cannot be replicated 100%.
I cannot speak for anyone other than myself, but I will say that in the instances where it has hit the fan, my reaction has always been strangely calm and relaxed. I will note that I find more stress in all the events leading up to those moments. I definitely have that "mother ****er" moment, but it is more of a "OK, so you want to do it like that" response, but at the moment it goes south I get a calm feeling. I think because the anticipation of the unknown is more tense than processing what I know to now be happening around me and then training and experience heavily weigh in. Don't get me wrong as emotions of fear, etc, exist and I do not have a death wish, but I find myself staying relaxed.
When looking at others in the same situation, perhaps in the very same incident as it is unfolding, I definitely see different sides of things in others reactions. Some people get calm, others react with a more animated response. Effectiveness of the individual to perform does not necessarily decrease, it is just the manner in how they react to the stimulus is different.
I will also note that I am the same way when it comes to friendly competition, no matter what the sport or topic. Nervous anticipation prior, but calm when the bell rings, or buzzer goes off. I will note however that when it comes to friendly competition I am more stressed prior to the event than when I am working. I sometimes find it a bit strange, yet I understand why I am like this.
Having given my thoughts above, I tend to surmise that technical performance skills increase under training stress and under real world critical incident stress. So yes the stress of training be it a buzzer, competition or force on force all have positive effects on performance, however you cannot reasonably expect that someone who performs at a high level under a controlled environment stress situation will perform well under real world, critical incident stress. On the other hand, it may be just as incorrect to assume that someone will perform amazingly well if they come under critical incident stresses occasionally, but do not train with high levels of correct repetition under controlled stress situations.
I will also surmise that if no one has ever been in a critical incident situation that stress induced training be it a buzzer or force on force will have big benefits. Not saying that a buzzer or force on force will be the same type of stress but it is a lot easier, or more practical to get stress from a buzzer or competition than from trying to get force on force training. Also a buzzer or competition can not practically replicate situations that give force on force a huge advantage when it comes to a critical incident.
In conclusion, I get more stress from competition than I do from going to work, putting on armor and responding to a weapons related call out. This may be perhaps due in part that I do not do organized competition so perhaps I feel more comfortable in what I do more of on a regular basis. Also competitive stress or a buzzer can be of high value provided it is a part of a larger training program that a shooter follows.
Thank you for the response surf! What role do you think muscle memory plays into everything? As in, the more something becomes second nature, the less time you have to waste thinking about it and can focus on other tasks?
I saw a vid of Costa firing an M60 the other day. When his belt was empty, he rolled it to the left to check the "chamber." I feel like training scars like that actually help in a stressful situation because you can focus on other things. It just doesn't help when you check the chamber and then realize it's belt fed :)
Here's a question:
Would different guns be a wiser choice for people with different reactions to stress?
Like a DAO, or SAO gun, DA/SA, or Safe Action. HK mag release v. Browning magazine release. Etc.Training issue plain and simple. Picking a certain weapon feature or piece of gear in an attempt to mitigate or alleviate the real true issue that needs to be addressed is an incorrect and irresponsible path to take.
The problem you often see with these types of discharges comes down to a lack of training or as mentioned by jonconsiglio is that often times training is correct but practice of that training is not sufficient. In these instances we see persons reacting in a different manner in an actual critical incident than in a controlled training environment, even a stressful force on force type of training and that is due to lack of practice of the correct training techniques.
So why do we see ND's happen in the real world? It often comes down to lack of training and / or a phenomenon that we call "Trigger Affirmation". In a true stressful critical incident a shooter may subconsciously place their finger on the trigger in an affirmation that "yes my trigger is there, I am touching it and it makes me feel safer". Trigger affirmation is even much more common when we look at low light shooting when we perhaps lose the sense of visual acuity which induces high levels of stress and often you will see shooters feeling or rubbing the trigger in an attempt to help alleviate that stress. Kinda like a safety blanket. A reflexive reaction will obviously have much more serious negative outcomes when there is lack of training or when there is trigger affirmation happening which is also associated to a lack of training.
Bottom line, we should not be looking for band aid fixes to cover up what the real issue is, which is training and proper repetition and practice of those training techniques / principles.
Thank you for the response surf! What role do you think muscle memory plays into everything? As in, the more something becomes second nature, the less time you have to waste thinking about it and can focus on other tasks?
I saw a vid of Costa firing an M60 the other day. When his belt was empty, he rolled it to the left to check the "chamber." I feel like training scars like that actually help in a stressful situation because you can focus on other things. It just doesn't help when you check the chamber and then realize it's belt fed :)Muscle memory is a bit of a misnomer but we both get what we are talking about here. So the repetition via training can be both a positive and a negative, it just depends if those repetitions are correct or not. Getting to the point of being able to do certain functions or operations at the unconscious or subconscious level is always a good thing. This is often referred to as unconscious competence. This level or performance often means that it was attained via huge quantities of training and practice which has ingrained massive amounts of played out scenarios that are stored in our hard drive which we can quickly access for a more correct, thought out and perhaps practiced response that is at the subconscious level of the thought process. The huge amount of training repetition to get to these levels of subconscious response tends to mean that reaction speed, correct response and efficacy is greatly increased.
As for Costa and the video you mention of him checking the chamber on the M60, I cannot put words into his mouth but I will give my own mention of what I do. I do not do chamber checks as a default on an empty chamber in bolt lock prior to performing a speed reload as you might have seen Costa or Haley supporting back in their Magpul days. Now if I clearly didn't catch that is was a lock back on an empty chamber for some reason I will assess what happened. So basically my default is to feel the weapon go into bolt lock on and empty chamber and perform a speed reload without a default chamber check. Now I was told before that I do chamber checks because I can be seen in some video's doing a chamber check. What they are actually seeing is that I understand that my weapon is empty after a string of fire and I plan on ensuring an empty weapon before perhaps bolt forward, safety on, dust cover closed. So what do I do? Yep roll the weapon, and perform a visual inspection of the chamber itself as that is a normal procedure for ensuring an empty weapon. I was not checking to see if the weapon was empty and if I needed to load another magazine. I was doing a confirmation of an empty chamber prior to safeing the weapon. I say this because perhaps Costa was simply doing the same thing?
Magic_Salad0892
02-16-13, 02:40
Hey Surf, I love your YT channel. What would be the chances you'd do a video about training scars?
Since the thread drifted, I thought I would offer my 2 cents.
I had a similar discussion on another board, ref performance under stress vs. low stress training. I started it after a few discussions on here about fine vs gross motor skill function, or lack thereof; hitting slide release vs. overhand method for example.
We dug up a few reports, mostly sports related, but they do provide some interesting food for thought.
The reports:
http://www.unicommons.com/sites/default/files/motorskillspressure.pdf
http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Sport%20Psychology/How%20to%20Avoid%20Choking%20under%20Pressure.pdf
http://hpl.uchicago.edu/Publications/Choking%20Under%20Pressure%20Multiple%20Routes%20to%20Skill%20Failure.pdf
http://essay.utwente.nl/61212/1/Jong,_M.A._de_-_s0010162_(verslag).pdf
My personal opinion, based on my (limited) experience, conversations with doctors and speaking with others who have been in stressful situations, is that the "fight or flight" response and it's effects are often exaggerated.
See this quote by Dr. Martin Fackler:
The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory. As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writ-ers eager to impress their readers. Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) -- thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.
I am not saying that stress does NOT effect you, but from reading the reports it seems that there are other factors at play, rather than some hormonal activity.
The biggest factor is how you actually train, run drills and what method is used to learn/acquire skills. Often the individual needing to perform limits himself because he is too concerned with the outcome, or the consequences of his actions, rather than focusing on what he needs to do. Also, if the individual has been taught several steps that must be done when performing a skill, he is more susceptible to choke if he focuses on each step, rather than the action itself.
A few quotes:
In a 2008 study Oudejans rounded up a group of Dutch police officers and askedhalf of them to practice their marksmanship skills by shooting at a cardboard target; the otherhalf trained by firing shots directly at one another (the cartridges contained soap, not bullets).After three one-hour training sessions, the “performance” was on: an officer-on-officer shoot-out using the dummy cartridges. The officers who had practiced on cardboard targets caved in this new tension-filled situation, whereas the group that had trained under the samestressful conditions thrived, notching much higher accuracy ratings than the other group did.
These results indicate that turning up the heat from the very first day of practice may be oneof the most effective ways to immunize yourself against blowing it.
The players sailed through the second trial with flying colors—except the ones who focusedon multiple aspects of their putt, according to the results published in the January 2008Psychology of Sport and Exercise. “When they were focusing on the three representativemechanical processes, that was when their performance dropped,” Gucciardi noted. Similarly,in 1999 psychologist Lew Hardy of the University of Wales found that performers who thinkabout a concrete, detailed set of rules during their moment in the spotlight (“keep skis high inthe air” and “keep body streamlined” for a ski jumper, for instance) are more likely tosuccumb to pressure than are those who do not have such a specific set of rules in mind.
Magic_Salad0892
02-16-13, 03:04
Arctic, I'm constantly impressed with your posts.
Here's a question:
Would different guns be a wiser choice for people with different reactions to stress?
Like a DAO, or SAO gun, DA/SA, or Safe Action. HK mag release v. Browning magazine release. Etc.
Training and mindset correct different reactions to stress. Gear selection will not.
Choose a firearm that is ergonomically correct for your physical attributes and master it. Choose a training regimen that will help you to react correctly under stress.
jonconsiglio
02-16-13, 09:33
Training and mindset correct different reactions to stress. Gear selection will not.
Choose a firearm that is ergonomically correct for your physical attributes and master it. Choose a training regimen that will help you to react correctly under stress.
I certainly agree with that. The only time I look at things like gear is when it's a choice for a number of people, most of which will never receive any trainng other than a bit for familiarization then quals every six months or so.
Sadly, that is the majority of officers I know. So, in that unique situation, something like an LEM can be an advantage. Not saying it will for sure or that it replaces training, it the sad reality is that most will not receive any training after the academy.
Quick story.... A few years ago I was at the local shop/range. A girl comes in wanting to rent a Glock. She was in the academy and was terrible with a handgun. The instructors told her to hit the range before her test the next day. The range didn't have one and when I overheard this, I just lent her mine. She went back to the range with 150 rounds, if I remember correctly.
About 30 minutes later, I checked on her as I was walking back to shoot. At 7 or 10 yards, her shots were about a foot apart. It was the worst I've ever seen. Asking what her instructors taught her, it was nothing more than how to handle the firearm and line up the sights.
I spent ten minutes dry firing with here then a few more doing dummy round drills. She was flinching like crazy. Her handling skills were terrible. I went over that stuff with here for another ten minutes or so. Within the hour, you could cover her groups with your fist at 7 yards. Not an amazing feat, but considering where she was an hour before....
Anyway, a couple days later I got an excited email from her that she passed and was praised by her instructors.
This is just one example of what can be months away from being on the street. Considering the numerous guys I've seen flagging others, keeping fingers on the trigger, etc., something like a DA or LEM can help reduce the chance of a negligent discharge. Not erase the chance altogether, but help prevent it.
Now, of course I see a ton of civilian choosers doing this same thing, but when I look at law enforcement, it's a little different. Many choose to be an officer and the firearm is just part of the job. An armed civilian chooses to carry.
Other than that, I am vey outspoken about training before gear. If you have a shooting problem, you correct it with training, not gear. The situation above is really the only time I see an advantage with different gear. Keep in mind, my seeing the advantage is not the same as me recommending doing it this way. I see it, agree gear could help, but would certainly prefer training fix the issue.
Just to be clear, I do a lot of training for law enforcement (often to help out local departments or individual officers that want to be better shooters - training is not my full time thing) and of course others in my line of work. So, I have a large number to base this on. Not basing it on one instance alone.
Just to be clear, I do a lot of training for law enforcement (often to help out local departments or individual officers that want to be better shooters - training is not my full time thing) and of course others in my line of work. So, I have a large number to base this on. Not basing it on one instance alone.
Seriously not trying to be a dick, but I've read mention of your job involving weapons / security in other threads, but you were clear about not being LE. Do you mind if I ask what you do? Pure curiosity.
jonconsiglio
02-16-13, 10:59
Seriously not trying to be a dick, but I've read mention of your job involving weapons / security in other threads, but you were clear about not being LE. Do you mind if I ask what you do? Pure curiosity.
I don't take that as a dick question at all, bro. I work in executive protection. I try to be clear that I'm not low enforcement so I don't accidentally misrepresent myself when I'm talking about these things.
From there, I've gotten involved in security consulting. Feel free to PM me any time.
When it comes to training, it's not a full time job in any way. It's something I do it when the opportunity comes up, mainly due to the lack of options in this area. Departments in our area have a very limited training budget. I do what I can to help out. A buddy of mine, Nyeti (years with SWAT the executive protection) on m4c, started a training company with Wayne Dobbs. They do things a bit different when it comes to their approach, so hopefully we'll get some consistent training down here for those interested.
Edit - I see who you are now.... I need a holster, I'll email you soon.
Jon
Training issue plain and simple. Picking a certain weapon feature or piece of gear in an attempt to mitigate or alleviate the real true issue that needs to be addressed is an incorrect and irresponsible path to take.
The problem you often see with these types of discharges comes down to a lack of training or as mentioned by jonconsiglio is that often times training is correct but practice of that training is not sufficient. In these instances we see persons reacting in a different manner in an actual critical incident than in a controlled training environment, even a stressful force on force type of training and that is due to lack of practice of the correct training techniques.
So why do we see ND's happen in the real world? It often comes down to lack of training and / or a phenomenon that we call "Trigger Affirmation". In a true stressful critical incident a shooter may subconsciously place their finger on the trigger in an affirmation that "yes my trigger is there, I am touching it and it makes me feel safer". Trigger affirmation is even much more common when we look at low light shooting when we perhaps lose the sense of visual acuity which induces high levels of stress and often you will see shooters feeling or rubbing the trigger in an attempt to help alleviate that stress. Kinda like a safety blanket. A reflexive reaction will obviously have much more serious negative outcomes when there is lack of training or when there is trigger affirmation happening which is also associated to a lack of training.
Bottom line, we should not be looking for band aid fixes to cover up what the real issue is, which is training and proper repetition and practice of those training techniques / principles.
Muscle memory is a bit of a misnomer but we both get what we are talking about here. So the repetition via training can be both a positive and a negative, it just depends if those repetitions are correct or not. Getting to the point of being able to do certain functions or operations at the unconscious or subconscious level is always a good thing. This is often referred to as unconscious competence. This level or performance often means that it was attained via huge quantities of training and practice which has ingrained massive amounts of played out scenarios that are stored in our hard drive which we can quickly access for a more correct, thought out and perhaps practiced response that is at the subconscious level of the thought process. The huge amount of training repetition to get to these levels of subconscious response tends to mean that reaction speed, correct response and efficacy is greatly increased.
As for Costa and the video you mention of him checking the chamber on the M60, I cannot put words into his mouth but I will give my own mention of what I do. I do not do chamber checks as a default on an empty chamber in bolt lock prior to performing a speed reload as you might have seen Costa or Haley supporting back in their Magpul days. Now if I clearly didn't catch that is was a lock back on an empty chamber for some reason I will assess what happened. So basically my default is to feel the weapon go into bolt lock on and empty chamber and perform a speed reload without a default chamber check. Now I was told before that I do chamber checks because I can be seen in some video's doing a chamber check. What they are actually seeing is that I understand that my weapon is empty after a string of fire and I plan on ensuring an empty weapon before perhaps bolt forward, safety on, dust cover closed. So what do I do? Yep roll the weapon, and perform a visual inspection of the chamber itself as that is a normal procedure for ensuring an empty weapon. I was not checking to see if the weapon was empty and if I needed to load another magazine. I was doing a confirmation of an empty chamber prior to safeing the weapon. I say this because perhaps Costa was simply doing the same thing?
I took a Costa carbine class last November (2012) and he was a big advocate of chamber checks whenever the weapon stopped functioning, even if on bolt lock back.
jonconsiglio
02-16-13, 18:41
I took a Costa carbine class last November (2012) and he was a big advocate of chamber checks whenever the weapon stopped functioning, even if on bolt lock back.
Travis no longer suggests doing this and if I remember correctly, neither do the current Magpul guys.
jonconsiglio
02-16-13, 18:43
Arctic, I'm constantly impressed with your posts.
Arctic is a good dude and an asset both here and on Lightfighter.
Travis no longer suggests doing this and if I remember correctly, neither do the current Magpul guys.
Yeah, that surprised me at the class because I thought the chamber check fell out of favor.
Grant, what is your opinion of the Glock 34? I haven't heard of people running into issues with those jamming up due to the milled slide. I never had an issue with mine.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
More input on the G34 for duty use: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=125727
C4
SeriousStudent
03-03-13, 00:45
................ A buddy of mine, Nyeti (years with SWAT the executive protection) on m4c, started a training company with Wayne Dobbs. They do things a bit different when it comes to their approach, so hopefully we'll get some consistent training down here for those interested.
..............
I have taken two classes with those gentlemen, and learned a great deal. Both are excellent teachers. I am very, very pleased they have set up shop here in Texas and are offering training. They are getting me ready for Hackathorn and Vickers classes this fall.
My apologies for the thread drift. I just wanted to support Jon's remarks.
Costa discussing his custom M&P 9L
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYrSFRkue3Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player
-Jax
I don't take that as a dick question at all, bro. I work in executive protection. I try to be clear that I'm not low enforcement so I don't accidentally misrepresent myself when I'm talking about these things.
From there, I've gotten involved in security consulting. Feel free to PM me any time.
When it comes to training, it's not a full time job in any way. It's something I do it when the opportunity comes up, mainly due to the lack of options in this area. Departments in our area have a very limited training budget. I do what I can to help out. A buddy of mine, Nyeti (years with SWAT the executive protection) on m4c, started a training company with Wayne Dobbs. They do things a bit different when it comes to their approach, so hopefully we'll get some consistent training down here for those interested.
Edit - I see who you are now.... I need a holster, I'll email you soon.
Jon
Forgot to follow up on this - my bad. It gets hard to communicate tone on the Internet, so I'm glad you didn't take it as a confrontational type question.
I figured it was along those lines - but was always curious. The more well informed trainers, the better. I've been meaning to make it to TX, so I'll drop you a PM if I ever make it down some day - in case you want to do a range session.
Shoot me an email whenever - happy to oblige. I contacted you awhile back about spraying some gear with Aervoe after seeing your work in the pic threads. It was awhile ago, and unfortunately never got around to sending anything.
Sorry for continuing the thread drift.
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