View Full Version : Offering help at the range
So I'm at the range today and there was a couple (Father and daughter would have been my guess.)
They were both shooting with the most horrid "grab the wrist" technique, appalling accuracy etc. They asked me if I wanted their brass when they saw me picking up mine, very patient seemed like nice people.
I was wondering if anyone ever offers "random" shooting tips to strangers at the range. I didn't, but now I wish I had offered.
I wouldn't offer unless asked, just like I wouldn't give unsolicited swing advice on the golf course to a stranger. :p
NavyDavy55
02-10-13, 15:36
I've given help many times at the private range. It's all in the approach.
I'll start a question with "what you shooting"?
Or one guy saw me shooting and complimented my groups. He then commented on his bad groups.
One young kid was shooting up the wooden target stands. So either I helped him or the RO was going to kick him out. I gladly helped.
It really is all about the approach as the gentleman above me stated.
For example, offer to show the novice shooter the proper/correct way, but term it as offering an alternative method to the novice shooter's current method.
Offer alternatives, rather than fixes per say.
I wouldn't offer unless asked, just like I wouldn't give unsolicited swing advice on the golf course to a stranger. :p
Bad shooting habits are easier to correct than a bad golf swing...:p
I will offer my help when it's clear people want it.
The worst thing I've ever done was to offer help to a guy in front of his girlfriend.
I will offer my help when it's clear people want it.
The worst thing I've ever done was to offer help to a guy in front of his girlfriend.
That is very true, and sad to boot. I've seen a lot of people treating their GF/Wives wrong at the range... not necceaarily BAD but giving them bad advice.
The best professional or lay firearms instructor in the world should get someone else to teach their significant other to shoot.
I say TEACH their SO to shoot, I think its great taking a non shooting female to the range and introducing them to the subject. If they show an interest find someone else to spend a few hours with them.
I've given help many times at the private range. It's all in the approach.
I'll start a question with "what you shooting"?
Or one guy saw me shooting and complimented my groups. He then commented on his bad groups.
One young kid was shooting up the wooden target stands. So either I helped him or the RO was going to kick him out. I gladly helped.
In this particular situation I had my son there with a 22, I wasn't even planning on shooting. But, I saw these folks and put up a couple of silhouettes and went through about 50 rounds doing failure to stop drills from the draw. HOPING they would comment and open an avenue. They seemed like they would really listen and benefit, but I'm not forward enough.
Failure2Stop
02-11-13, 11:25
I will give some pointers if asked, but avoid approaching people uninvited like syphalitic plague.
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thopkins22
02-11-13, 11:37
I will give some pointers if asked, but avoid approaching people uninvited like syphalitic plague.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I've experienced my fair share of unsolicited advice from people that were not as good as I was...but one of the most helpful sessions I ever experienced was totally unsolicited. I was walking to an empty bay at my range and stopped for a second to watch this guy just destroying drills and mentioned sort of under my breath "wow, great shooting." His electronic ears must have been super sensitive, because he stopped shooting, turned around, and invited me in for pointers.
Turned out to be a Master class USPSA shooter who got me tuned up in thirty minutes more than I'd achieved in a long time of running drills and competing on my own.
The only help I tend to offer without being asked is technical help to guys who cannot get zeroed...such as this guy that needed one of the taller front sight posts for his Wyndham as it didn't have the right FSB.
Many years ago, on another, sadly defunct forum, a member posted that every man thinks he is good at shooting driving and sex. I would expand that thinking to add that offering unsolicited advice to a grown man on shooting is akin to offering advice on the other two. Its a powerful ego thing. This goes double when they're with a member of the opposite sex (either a partner, child, or another relative). Probably something to do with questioning their image as a protector and provider.
My advice or avenue of approach? Shoot good and enjoy yourself, and let your own performance, gear selection, or demeanor draw them over to you. Otherwise, I'd steer clear, unless you're looking at a serious safety issue.
Of course, when I'm actually working as an instructor at my agency, if someone is doing something truly stupid or inefficient, I'll head right over.:D
Since I am new to shooting I look for all the help I can get, and sometimes ask people for advice if I feel comfortable to do so.
Practicing MMA has taught me to be humble with everything. There is not a worse feeling than thinking you are doing something correctly and to have your coach yell "that was F*cking ugly!"
"Stay humble and learn."
I actually like when people take their time to teach me something.
The only time I might consider offering anything unsoliticted is if a gross safety violation is occuring and no RO is around to notify/stop it. Still, it's all in the approach ("Excuse me, I can't help but noticing"...). I've certainly got plenty to learn and am smart enough to accept whatever help someone wants to offer..
NavyDavy55
02-11-13, 12:28
I will offer my help when it's clear people want it.
The worst thing I've ever done was to offer help to a guy in front of his girlfriend.
I saw a guy and girl at the range last summer who I assume were boyfriend/girlfriend.
The girl was new to shooting and the guy was a moron. He kept trying to force her to shoot guns with too much recoil. She cut her finger slightly and he kept pushing. Giving advise in that situation was not for me. She ended leaving the range by herself.
She ended leaving the range by herself.
A lot of these often self-correct. Makes for some good entertainment, too. There was a thread about this a long time ago...
Zane: You have the right attitude. :)
I think training for MMA is different than training at the range. with MMA, you pretty much train at a gym or studio, where you'll be around other students of varying ability, instructors, competitors, etc. Getting and being schooled is very much the norm and expected. Going "live" or testing skills with competition is also more commonplace, so people who do go to MMA gyms get their reality checked more-so than people who go to the range to pop caps.
With your attitude, if you came to me for advice, I'd be glad to share it, if I had it to give to you.
CleverNickname
02-11-13, 14:48
Unless it's a safety violation or something that has the potential to cause injury (e.g. a newbie shooter wrapping their support hand's thumb around the back of the gun where it could be cut by the slide), I keep to myself.
It's a lot like lifting weights at the gym. People usually know by looking around who to ask for advice, but walking up to someone and pointing out what they're doing wrong looks pretty D-Bagish.
Good technique and visible results will make people ask you for pointers but in both shooting and lifting the people who are always looking to hand out advice are wearing affliction shirts and don't really know what they're talking about.
I tend to keep to myself, and usually create distance or physical barriers between me/my group and other shooters. There have been times over the years that I've chimed in with others when an opportunity presented itself. It's all about the ice breaker, word choice, and body language. I have given away an awful lot of lube, a good deal of spare parts, and done some minor armoring when people have mechanical issues. Those opportunities are easier to spot, and the people more open and accepting of a stranger.
People can go downright caveman if you attempt to help their SO in their presence, or give conflicting advice. Tread carefully here.
You can telegraph the ability and willingness to help by adjusting your own range activity. A sort of mirroring that draws attention.
Smash - the gym is a great analogy for this.
Couldn't agree more. Unless you think someone is going to hurt themselves or others, say nothing unless asked.
There was a goofball at IDPA last month who I considered helping, then someone else (the SO) tried to and was rebuffed with the 'I want to train like I'm going to fight' BS, so my lack of involvement was validated.
As a practical matter, if you try to help and hurt someone's sensitive feelings, they're not going to listen anyway and might even intentionally not do what you suggested out of spite, so the net result could be worse than doing nothing.
Five_Point_Five_Six
02-17-13, 17:01
I will gladly help anyone out if they ask. If they don't, I keep to myself.
It depends really. I have been at the range and had people who I offered advice to who gladly accepted it. I have also stopped some shooters who were about the do something that was going to hurt as well who took the advice. I also help down at my local 4H, having a state and zone champion ships under my belt tends to help lend me authority to the new shooters, but even some of them think they know everything, and you also run into the other issue of some instructors claiming they know anything and any one who say anything different from their style are idiots, even when their technique hasn't won shit while I tend to be very open and generally offer small critics, and try to work a style that fits the shooter, at least to a point, and not the other way around. Basically I don't believe in a one size fits all and encourage people to try different techniques and see what works the best.
However, I have had enough people who were at the range who I walked up and offered advice, even had them go from going to a two foot pattern at 7 yards(I shit you not) to a fist sized group by changing stance and grip and as soon as I turn my back go right back to ammo masturbation not hitting shit. Experiences like that pretty much have brought me to the point that I don't offer advice too much unless i know the shooter or they ask me for help.
I am cordial with other people at the range, but I don't offer advice unless I am asked. I will say something if they are unsafe though.
I have offered help to exactly one guy. Shooting trap one day with 3 buddies. A group of 3 or 4 guys showed up and asked to join in the rotation. No problem. I ended up to the right of one of these guys(who admitted it was his first or maybe second time) and was watching him shoot and his "technique" was awful. His buddies couldnt see it cause they were to his left. As soon as I "corrected" his technique(put your damn cheek on the stock so you can actually track the bead as you track the bird) he actually turned out to be a good shooter.
I have been asked for help or advice numerous times. That seems to come with being the guy at the range with the SBR and other cool toys.
Only if/when asked. Too many know-it-alls to offer it otherwise.
I will give some pointers if asked, but avoid approaching people uninvited like syphalitic plague.
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Wonderful simile...syphilitic plague. :laugh:
I avoid others when at a public range. I never offer advice, and am rarely asked. As long as everyone is being safe, I could care less how they're shooting; I've got myself to worry about, which is more than enough! Typically, the advice offerers are blowhard dudes telling all how it should be done. Tight/cutoff tee also seems to be a requirement.
I have been approached a lot about the guns we're shooting. And even more often with the, 'can you help me, my ____ (brand) isn't working'.
I will gladly help anyone out if they ask. If they don't, I keep to myself.
This, usually. I may offer if they appear to be getting a little frustrated with their results, because I remember when I was at that point, and I wouldn't have learned as much if someone didn't do the same for me.
I keep to myself anyway so the range is no different. Unless their range behavior is unsafe.
Prairie Patriot
02-19-13, 19:32
I would not offer advice unless we were chatting and the subject came up. I happen to be fairly good at judging a person's attitude after a few minutes though (I'm not always correct, mind you!). So I feel comfortable. I certainly don't try to BS on a subject I do not feel confident in when transferring knowledge.
I have had only one person come up to my wife and I at the range. It was my wife's first time shooting a AR15. He was an old Marine. Come to find out my wife was cross eye dominant. Had her shooting much better in no time.
I will gladly help anyone out if they ask. If they don't, I keep to myself.
This, usually. I may offer if they appear to be getting a little frustrated with their results, because I remember when I was at that point, and I wouldn't have learned as much if someone didn't do the same for me.
I second the motion.
If it's a safety issue I will offer unsolicited advice, especially if my safety is on the line. Although at public ranges I've just packed up depending on the vibe I got.
If I see an individual having an issue ill strike up a conversation and see if they ask.
But if there is a group, even a small one like a couple, disrupting that dynamic usually does not work.
I've had more people ask for advice just by acting like I know what I'm doing and not being a terrible shot.
ClearedHot
02-20-13, 03:14
The only time I've offered help/advice to a stranger at a public range was to a girl shooting a rented Sig 229. With the way she was gripping the pistol, an accident was waiting to happen. She had support hand thumb positioned over the web of her shooting hand and millimeters away from the slide. Not wanting to see her get her hand sliced by the slide, I tapped her on the shoulder and kindly showed her the correct grip.
She was very receptive and appreciative of the friendly advice.
A woman I know told me she was at the pistol range and someone offered her unsolicited advice. She was setting up to shoot and had not fired a round yet. The way the man approached her made her feel like he was talking down to her. He did not bother to watch her shoot before he approached her and given the level of her ability I imagine she could easily outshoot him.
If someone is doing something dangerous I will say something. If someone is not shooting too well and they don't ask for help, I mind my own business. If they ask for help, I will gladly give it.
I'll offer advice when asked but usually I am working on perfecting my own shooting.
At the range today a guy was carrying in the small of the back, when he re-holstered after each shot he swept me with his muzzle. I asked him not to point his pistol at me, and explained how he was doing it. He got angry and resorted to name-calling and tried to stare me down.
I think I'm going to have to build my own range in the back yard.
At the range today a guy was carrying in the small of the back, when he re-holstered after each shot he swept me with his muzzle. I asked him not to point his pistol at me, and explained how he was doing it. He got angry and resorted to name-calling and tried to stare me down.
I think I'm going to have to build my own range in the back yard.
You can't please everyone, no one can. You did the right thing. Muzzle sweeps are dangerous and should be addressed directly the way you addressed the man who flagged you.
Pretty much what everyone else has said but with the addition of asking if they need help if they have that unhappy/perplexed look like they are not having a good time. Not to be confused with the angry/impatient "wtf isn't this working" types who are best left to their own devices (save safety concerns).
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