View Full Version : Best ccw forum?
What would be the best ( i.e. the equivalent of this forum, but relating to ccw issues) CCW forum? As an Illinois resident fast approaching the possibility - I need good, solid info to come up to speed ASAP.
TIA
john
What would be the best ( i.e. the equivalent of this forum, but relating to ccw issues) CCW forum? As an Illinois resident fast approaching the possibility - I need good, solid info to come up to speed ASAP.
TIA
john
Out of curiosity, do you think that no one here has their CCW? Do think that people on a dedicated "CCW" forum will have members more knowledgeable than the ones on here???
C4
What would be the best ( i.e. the equivalent of this forum, but relating to ccw issues) CCW forum? As an Illinois resident fast approaching the possibility - I need good, solid info to come up to speed ASAP.
TIA
johnYou came to the correct place:moil:
mkmckinley
02-10-13, 19:33
I'd have to say this is the best CCW forum. Just look around in the subs. Training and tactics is a good place to start. There's a much better signal to noise ratio here than I've found anywhere else with regard to most serious aspects of shooting including CCW.
If I were you, I'd start with Illinoiscarry.com.
Out of curiosity, do you think that no one here has their CCW? Do think that people on a dedicated "CCW" forum will have members more knowledgeable than the ones on here??? C4
Based on pure stats - I'd assume the majority here have ccw. My time (and probably most on the list) for forum cruising is limited, and I thought I'd be more time efficient on a dedicated list. Also - many ccw-related questions might not fall nicely into the categories on M4.
john
Out of curiosity, do you think that no one here has their CCW? Do think that people on a dedicated "CCW" forum will have members more knowledgeable than the ones on here???
C4
Yes. Yes, I do.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/forum.php
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/forum.php
+1
While it isn't perfect, Defensive Carry is a good resource.
-john
jonconsiglio
02-10-13, 20:58
I'm a member on defensive carry as well. It's a decent forum it it's just filled with new people often sharing bad info. The senior members are good about fixing it, but it still happens, a lot.
Out of curiosity, do you think that no one here has their CCW? Do think that people on a dedicated "CCW" forum will have members more knowledgeable than the ones on here???
C4
I have spent a LOT of time in "CCW" forums and M4C is definitely not on my list of forums for discussion of that topic.
Perhaps I just haven't looked for/found the proper sub-forum here? Does such a sub forum exist?
I also don't think that the membership here would be very good with/have the patience for the typical questions and discussions that come up in carry forums. I think it would just lead to a bunch of closed threads for topics that "have been done before", and people going elsewhere for the discussion they seek.
Five_Point_Five_Six
02-10-13, 21:27
I'm a member on defensive carry as well. It's a decent forum it it's just filled with new people often sharing bad info. The senior members are good about fixing it, but it still happens, a lot.
Defensive carry is a good forum, decent rifle subforum, but they've been plagued with the influx of noobs and bad info that has hit the other forums as well.
I have spent a LOT of time in "CCW" forums and M4C is definitely not on my list of forums for discussion of that topic.
Agreed.
I'm a member on defensive carry as well. It's a decent forum it it's just filled with new people often sharing bad info. The senior members are good about fixing it, but it still happens, a lot.
Concur. Just like this forum, take what you read with a grain of salt and glean the good from the bad.
Just Keep Swimming
02-11-13, 10:03
Glock Talk has a few nice CCW sub-forums. One is the "self defense" forum moderated by Mas Ayoob and the other is called "carry issues". When I lived in Commiefornia I would frequent the "California Conceal Carry" forum as well.
Good luck with your search.
Magic_Salad0892
02-11-13, 10:18
If I were you, I'd start with Illinoiscarry.com.
... Is that a joke? I thought they didn't have concealed carry in IL.
... Is that a joke? I thought they didn't have concealed carry in IL.
http://illinoiscarry.com/
http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/
Based on pure stats - I'd assume the majority here have ccw. My time (and probably most on the list) for forum cruising is limited, and I thought I'd be more time efficient on a dedicated list. Also - many ccw-related questions might not fall nicely into the categories on M4.
john
I would say that you are more likely to get the CORRECT (or most intelligent) answer to your questions here.
Catagories are pretty loose on here. Got a carry question? Ask it in the training/tactics forum. Got a HG question, go to the HG forum, etc.
C4
Yes. Yes, I do.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/forum.php
Having been on that forum, I would argue against that opinion.
C4
I have spent a LOT of time in "CCW" forums and M4C is definitely not on my list of forums for discussion of that topic.
Perhaps I just haven't looked for/found the proper sub-forum here? Does such a sub forum exist?
I also don't think that the membership here would be very good with/have the patience for the typical questions and discussions that come up in carry forums. I think it would just lead to a bunch of closed threads for topics that "have been done before", and people going elsewhere for the discussion they seek.
Maybe there is needs to be a dedicated CCW forum on here? I am of the opinion though that most questions fall into one of three catagories:
1. Gun Selection
2. Gear Selection
3. Training
All three sections are covered here.
C4
I also don't think that the membership here would be very good with/have the patience for the typical questions and discussions that come up in carry forums. I think it would just lead to a bunch of closed threads for topics that "have been done before", and people going elsewhere for the discussion they seek.
Gotta agree. Not a warm fuzzy place for newbies.
"USE THE #&%$* SEARCH BUTTON"
Maybe there is needs to be a dedicated CCW forum on here? I am of the opinion though that most questions fall into one of three catagories:
1. Gun Selection
2. Gear Selection
3. Training
All three sections are covered here.
C4
I thought about suggesting that too but being newer here, I figured it would get poo-poo'd. A self defense/home defense & CCW sub forum would be a great idea. I also think (as Warp said) the mods should be a little more forgiving in said forum.
Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2
Gotta agree. Not a warm fuzzy place for newbies.
"USE THE #&%$* SEARCH BUTTON"
I don't know that it is THIS for forum as much as it is the "quality" of the noob.
Meaning, we were all "noobs" at one time. When I first got into this stuff, I read several forums for ONE YEAR before I ever posted anything. I sought out quality memebers and read everything they wrote. So by the time I posted, I had learned a lot and also had a lot more first person experience.
The above doesn't seem to be the norm any more. People that know NOTHING will come onto a forum (full of Tier 1, Tier 2 guys, SWAT, Instructors and heavy users) and tell them "what's up!" :rolleyes:
C4
I thought about suggesting that too but being newer here, I figured it would get poo-poo'd. A self defense/home defense & CCW sub forum would be a great idea. I also think (as Warp said) the mods should be a little more forgiving in said forum.
Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2
Being kind (or forgiving as you put it) is one thing. Allowing stupid crap to be posted is a different. From reading OTHER forums (specifically ones with CCW forums), the questions are often stupid and of no technical value.
Is that of any value to anyone???
C4
Glock Talk has a few nice CCW sub-forums. One is the "self defense" forum moderated by Mas Ayoob and the other is called "carry issues". When I lived in Commiefornia I would frequent the "California Conceal Carry" forum as well.
Good luck with your search.
I spent a LOT of time reading and posting in the Carry Issues sub forum of Glock Talk. But the mod took to harassing the **** out of me. I got the admin to overturn some of his patently wrong infractions when I had done nothing at all wrong, but he continued harassing the **** out of me and the last time I went to the admin he said that while he doesn't always agree with the actions of his mods, he supports them, and since the two of us "can't get along", and he has to be there (as the mod), and I don't, he just banned me from that section to "solve the problem". :rolleyes:
Maybe there is needs to be a dedicated CCW forum on here? I am of the opinion though that most questions fall into one of three catagories:
1. Gun Selection
2. Gear Selection
3. Training
All three sections are covered here.
C4
Your opinion does not reflect reality.
"What would you do" questions are HUGE. Actual incidents are discussed. Scenarios are discussed. Hypotheticals are discussed. You might say that is "Training", but M4C does not have an area where those kinds of questions fit very well.
Legal questions are huge. No, not the kind answered by actual lawyers (the IANAL acronym is seen quite a bit), but people ask about the legal significance of signs in their state, of printing, possible requirements regarding notifying LEO in an encounter, etc. www.handgunlaw.us is a popular link/reference here, as well as state specific resources. For example, I might use www.georgiapacking.org when answering questions about GA.
And lots more.
I have tens of thousands of posts and about 7 years actively spent on "CCW" type forums and M4C just doesn't have anything of the sort to speak of.
I think a "Carry Issues" forum would be very useful, and I would participate heavily.
Being kind (or forgiving as you put it) is one thing. Allowing stupid crap to be posted is a different. From reading OTHER forums (specifically ones with CCW forums), the questions are often stupid and of no technical value.
Is that of any value to anyone???
C4
This is exactly why we say that M4C is not the place to go for discussion on carry.
It's that attitude. Newbs are gonna newb, and they are forced to go to less experienced and less knowledgeable sources because the membership at M4C is too good to answer such stupid questions. It is beneath them.
Also, the questions don't have to have a "technical value" to be a great topic for a Carry Issues forum. What's so bad about having a discussion on, say, moral issues? On personal preferences? Why does EVERYTHING have to be a technical discussion? Why can't we just have a topic, in a Carry Issues section, where people ask something like: "What is the minimum carry/gun that you are comfortable with as your EDC"?
Yes, their questions are of value. There are always people who need answers to questions that some other people find "stupid". It's just that M4C's culture/methodology is to turn away the people who are totally new to something because it's too much work to start from the ground up.
I don't know that it is THIS for forum as much as it is the "quality" of the noob.
Meaning, we were all "noobs" at one time. When I first got into this stuff, I read several forums for ONE YEAR before I ever posted anything. I sought out quality memebers and read everything they wrote. So by the time I posted, I had learned a lot and also had a lot more first person experience.
The above doesn't seem to be the norm any more. People that know NOTHING will come onto a forum (full of Tier 1, Tier 2 guys, SWAT, Instructors and heavy users) and tell them "what's up!" :rolleyes:
C4
Different forums have different cultures.
I spent a LOT of time reading and posting in the Carry Issues sub forum of Glock Talk. But the mod took to harassing the **** out of me. I got the admin to overturn some of his patently wrong infractions when I had done nothing at all wrong, but he continued harassing the **** out of me and the last time I went to the admin he said that while he doesn't always agree with the actions of his mods, he supports them, and since the two of us "can't get along", and he has to be there (as the mod), and I don't, he just banned me from that section to "solve the problem". :rolleyes:
Your opinion does not reflect reality.
"What would you do" questions are HUGE. Actual incidents are discussed. Scenarios are discussed. Hypotheticals are discussed. You might say that is "Training", but M4C does not have an area where those kinds of questions fit very well.
Legal questions are huge. No, not the kind answered by actual lawyers (the IANAL acronym is seen quite a bit), but people ask about the legal significance of signs in their state, of printing, possible requirements regarding notifying LEO in an encounter, etc. www.handgunlaw.us is a popular link/reference here, as well as state specific resources. For example, I might use www.georgiapacking.org when answering questions about GA.
And lots more.
I have tens of thousands of posts and about 7 years actively spent on "CCW" type forums and M4C just doesn't have anything of the sort to speak of.
I think a "Carry Issues" forum would be very useful, and I would participate heavily.
This is exactly why we say that M4C is not the place to go for discussion on carry.
It's that attitude. Newbs are gonna newb, and they are forced to go to less experienced and less knowledgeable sources because the membership at M4C is too good to answer such stupid questions. It is beneath them.
Also, the questions don't have to have a "technical value" to be a great topic for a Carry Issues forum. What's so bad about having a discussion on, say, moral issues? On personal preferences? Why does EVERYTHING have to be a technical discussion? Why can't we just have a topic, in a Carry Issues section, where people ask something like: "What is the minimum carry/gun that you are comfortable with as your EDC"?
Yes, their questions are of value. There are always people who need answers to questions that some other people find "stupid". It's just that M4C's culture/methodology is to turn away the people who are totally new to something because it's too much work to start from the ground up.
I agree 100%. I'm thinking of it as just being better organized here. If a question has to do with SD or CCW, there's one place to ask it instead of making sure that it's in the right Handgun/Shotgun/AR/Ammo sub-forums. I also think with it being of "less technical" in nature, there will less "dumb" comments that can be offered. It really has nothing to do with newbs. I think it could benefit everyone here.
Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2
Different forums have different cultures.
Grant also seems to be confusing two different things there.
Grant, first you talk about how you read for a year before you posted. Okay. You can do that. Some people would rather ask specific questions they have before the topic just happens to come up (and for carry issues sometimes Search doesn't work because new situations arise and laws change).
But then you reference inexperienced and non-knowledgeable guys telling those who KNOW and have experience "how it is".
Those are two very different things. Asking 'stupid questions' when you are a noob is one thing. Opening your mouth and spewing incorrect horse manure is another. It isn't too hard to differentiate between them and react accordingly.
Your opinion does not reflect reality.
"What would you do" questions are HUGE. Actual incidents are discussed. Scenarios are discussed. Hypotheticals are discussed. You might say that is "Training", but M4C does not have an area where those kinds of questions fit very well.
Really? Hmm, interesting.
Ah the "What if scenarios." Those are always logical an well thought out. Good use of bandwidth. They typically involve some sort of conspiracy theory/alien abduction/zombie BS.
So you get a bunch of people that (usually) have little to no training, LE or .Mil background thinking up answers based off of their 1.5 years of CCW experience. Not sure that is a benefit to anyone.
Legal questions are huge. No, not the kind answered by actual lawyers (the IANAL acronym is seen quite a bit), but people ask about the legal significance of signs in their state, of printing, possible requirements regarding notifying LEO in an encounter, etc. www.handgunlaw.us is a popular link/reference here, as well as state specific resources. For example, I might use www.georgiapacking.org when answering questions about GA.
So again, questions that could be answered by ACTUALLY reading the law or simply calling the local SO/PD. Instead, none lawyers sharing their knowledge (thusly giving person erroneous info based off speculation about the law).
It's that attitude. Newbs are gonna newb, and they are forced to go to less experienced and less knowledgeable sources because the membership at M4C is too good to answer such stupid questions. It is beneath them.
Most questions have been asked and answered. They just are too lazy to search for them. No need to discuss the same thing over and over again.
Also, the questions don't have to have a "technical value" to be a great topic for a Carry Issues forum. What's so bad about having a discussion on, say, moral issues? On personal preferences? Why does EVERYTHING have to be a technical discussion? Why can't we just have a topic, in a Carry Issues section, where people ask something like: "What is the minimum carry/gun that you are comfortable with as your EDC"?
We have a GD forum for non-technical questions and quite honestly moral questions DO get talked about in the context of the thread (which would usually be in the training forum). So the mods really aren't that restrictive when the discussion is of SOME value.
Yes, their questions are of value. There are always people who need answers to questions that some other people find "stupid". It's just that M4C's culture/methodology is to turn away the people who are totally new to something because it's too much work to start from the ground up.
What questions you have posted (that are of any value) could be posted in the HG forum (like how big a gun to carry). In fact, I just answered one of these the other day.
Though I do see that people THINK that a dedicated CCW forum would be of some use (even though the questions posted in it could be asked elsewhere on the forum).
C4
Different forums have different cultures.
True. This one is geared more towards the professional trigger puller (Mil or LE) and trained Civy.
I think people get tired of the stupidity, lack of moderating and low knowledge level and come here.
C4
Grant also seems to be confusing two different things there.
Grant, first you talk about how you read for a year before you posted. Okay. You can do that. Some people would rather ask specific questions they have before the topic just happens to come up (and for carry issues sometimes Search doesn't work because new situations arise and laws change).
The word patience comes to mind. People aren't patient anymore. Everything is about getting what they want RIGHT NOW.
When I said I read for a year, I also performed this crazy thing called a SEARCH! It worked well and every single question I could dream up was answered.
In the event that a new situation has come up, then sure the post should be made. This happens rarely though.
Those are two very different things. Asking 'stupid questions' when you are a noob is one thing. Opening your mouth and spewing incorrect horse manure is another. It isn't too hard to differentiate between them and react accordingly.
Personally, I have no problem answering noob questions (do it everday in my store, on the phone, e-mail and on the forum). I am actually a fan of new shooters learning. For whatever reason, they spend 6 months on the errornet posting stupid crap and are now the expert on everything.
C4
Really? Hmm, interesting.
Ah the "What if scenarios." Those are always logical an well thought out. Good use of bandwidth. They typically involve some sort of conspiracy theory/alien abduction/zombie BS.
So you get a bunch of people that (usually) have little to no training, LE or .Mil background thinking up answers based off of their 1.5 years of CCW experience. Not sure that is a benefit to anyone.
I didn't realize the M4C crowd was so inexperienced with "CCW".
My bad.
(because that's what I am referring to, people asking about 'what if' based on scenarios and hypotheticals, here on M4C)
You seem to be confused here.
So again, questions that could be answered by ACTUALLY reading the law or simply calling the local SO/PD. Instead, none lawyers sharing their knowledge (thusly giving person erroneous info based off speculation about the law).
Not everybody even knows where to go to read their state law. No one resource is 100% for everybody in the country, and no one resource is able to keep 100% up to date on what is transpiring/what laws are changing/etc.
And case laws is big. Some people have links/references/know where to find the case law that pertains to the question being asked. Do you have that much of a problem with a non-lawyer referencing a previous court case to respond to a person's question?
We have a GD forum for non-technical questions
With a 200 post minimum before you can use it, and members are strongly discouraged to not "post whore" in order to be allowed to post there. A policy I still don't understand...just seems to be ASKING for trouble, and ASKING for people to post uselessly in the technical areas.
and quite honestly moral questions DO get talked about in the context of the thread (which would usually be in the training forum). So the mods really aren't that restrictive when the discussion is of SOME value.
Is there a thread about when people (regular private citizens) think they would intervene in defense of a third party?
Is there a thread that discusses how people view carrying a concealed handgun in a business with "NO GUNS" posted on the front door, but where doing so is legal? Just a couple examples.
What questions you have posted (that are of any value) could be posted in the HG forum (like how big a gun to carry). In fact, I just answered one of these the other day.
Though I do see that people THINK that a dedicated CCW forum would be of some use (even though the questions posted in it could be asked elsewhere on the forum).
C4
I will use the Handgun forum(s) more for these types of discussions in the future. :cool:
True. This one is geared more towards the professional trigger puller (Mil or LE) and trained Civy.
I think people get tired of the stupidity, lack of moderating and low knowledge level and come here.
C4
This used to be even more true then it is now. The forum has been flooded over the past few months, and it feels like the mods just can't keep up. I come here because it's a collection of SME's, and professionals from LEO and MIL sharing info, and helping out.
I think what this place really needs instead of a CCW forum is a New Member general discussion section to go along with the new member intro section. This would be an absolute "flame free zone" where new members can ask any question they want. The SME's and veteran members can answer those questions if they choose, and the main forums aren't clogged up. I think this would make everyone happy in the end. If you're the kind that has random off the wall questions post them there, if you hate reading the same caliber, best gun, best CCW questions stay away.
I mostly read, read, search, and read some more here.
Ha, just saw we have a new to shooting forum.
In the event that a new situation has come up, then sure the post should be made. This happens rarely though.
The number of active threads on M4C, and the number of new posts started each day, indicates otherwise.
Either that or the mods are slacking a bunch of the active threads need locked.
I would like to note: Half the time I use the search button, if not more often, it simply leads to frustration because I find a thread topic that is EXACTLY what I am looking for, but the thread contains exactly 0 information because a mod closed it and said "this has been done", but there is no link, and I can never find the thread that supposedly already exists which completely covers the topic.
Magic_Salad0892
02-11-13, 12:59
Is there a thread about when people (regular private citizens) think they would intervene in defense of a third party?
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1185691
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104014
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=118770
Is there a thread that discusses how people view carrying a concealed handgun in a business with "NO GUNS" posted on the front door, but where doing so is legal? Just a couple examples.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=118830
That one's not talking about where it would be legal to do so, but I believe it was mentioned. And I know it's been mentioned in other threads.
I think what we need is user ratings. Have members rate eachother, and have their overall rating prominantly displayed. In terms of numbers of members who have given them "thumbs up" or "thumbs down". Or whatever. That'd do a lot to help, I think.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1185691
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104014
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=118770
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=118830
That one's not talking about where it would be legal to do so, but I believe it was mentioned. And I know it's been mentioned in other threads.
I think what we need is user ratings. Have members rate eachother, and have their overall rating prominantly displayed. In terms of numbers of members who have given them "thumbs up" or "thumbs down". Or whatever. That'd do a lot to help, I think.
I am a member of a forum that has a "reputation" system like that. It has it's ups and down. Obvious R-tards end up red (as in negative reputation, whereas positive reputation is green and your number goes up and up as you get positive reputation given to you) more often than not, but not always.
But it can turn into a popularity contest, and then people enter into agreements with other people for the sole purpose of raising one another's reputation, threads pop up where the only thing you do is rep other people who post in that thread, etc. It's an okay system, I don't mind it (probably because my reputation is very high), but it has a lot of problems and creates more work for the mods. On this forum mods get more "power", or at least more influence, though, as their "rep power" is astronomical compared to normal users and a "rep" or "neg" (giving negative reptuation = neg) carries a lot more weight when it's from a mod. Get a mod who doesn't like you for some person vendetta neg you when you are relatively new and you might never turn "green" again.
I have spent a LOT of time in "CCW" forums and M4C is definitely not on my list of forums for discussion of that topic.
Perhaps I just haven't looked for/found the proper sub-forum here? Does such a sub forum exist?
I also don't think that the membership here would be very good with/have the patience for the typical questions and discussions that come up in carry forums. I think it would just lead to a bunch of closed threads for topics that "have been done before", and people going elsewhere for the discussion they seek.
You mean all the use the ORANGE SEARCH BUTTON as an answer to all the "Should I carry one in the pipe?" questions?
I to don't see M4Carbine as a good environment for that sort of stuff. Now for the more advananced topics of use of force yes but too much of a Mil/LEO slant for a j frame carried in a purse forum.
It would be nice to have a few SME who are lawyers who have defended average Joe's in shooting, both won and lost. That experience would be just a valuable as which ARs are good to go.
Magic_Salad0892
02-11-13, 13:10
I am a member of a forum that has a "reputation" system like that. It has it's ups and down. Obvious R-tards end up red (as in negative reputation, whereas positive reputation is green and your number goes up and up as you get positive reputation given to you) more often than not, but not always.
But it can turn into a popularity contest, and then people enter into agreements with other people for the sole purpose of raising one another's reputation, threads pop up where the only thing you do is rep other people who post in that thread, etc. It's an okay system, I don't mind it (probably because my reputation is very high), but it has a lot of problems and creates more work for the mods. On this forum mods get more "power", or at least more influence, though, as their "rep power" is astronomical compared to normal users and a "rep" or "neg" (giving negative reptuation = neg) carries a lot more weight when it's from a mod. Get a mod who doesn't like you for some person vendetta neg you when you are relatively new and you might never turn "green" again.
That makes sense... What if you just had individual posts rated?
That makes sense... What if you just had individual posts rated?
When you add to/take from reputation on that forum you do so with a button that is next to every post anybody makes. Technically you are giving them feedback on that particular post.
The higher your reputation is, the more of an effect it has when you give to/take from other people because your reputation points are also your rep power.
Nephrology
02-11-13, 13:21
For more handgun oriented things, I prefer pistol-forum.com. Simply because they specialize in just that- the pistol. They don't have any of the stupid garbage that washes up on websites like defensive carry or GT.
Personally I am happy that neither is a dedicated CCW forum.
I didn't realize the M4C crowd was so inexperienced with "CCW".
My bad.
(because that's what I am referring to, people asking about 'what if' based on scenarios and hypotheticals, here on M4C)
You seem to be confused here.
Actually it is the opposite. We ARE experienced with the stupidity that goes on in other forums (hence why we are here).
Do they happen here? Yes. Do their usually get locked down and or removed quickly? Yes.
Not everybody even knows where to go to read their state law. No one resource is 100% for everybody in the country, and no one resource is able to keep 100% up to date on what is transpiring/what laws are changing/etc.
Really? So that booklet they got when they went through their CCW class is now missing?
I guess I can understand that people cannot search their State laws and will post questions about them. My guess though is that laziness plays a roll here.
And case laws is big. Some people have links/references/know where to find the case law that pertains to the question being asked. Do you have that much of a problem with a non-lawyer referencing a previous court case to respond to a person's question?
Sure. Case law is of interest (as it is actual fact). That can be posted in the training forum or in reference to a question in just about any section of M4C without an issue.
With a 200 post minimum before you can use it, and members are strongly discouraged to not "post whore" in order to be allowed to post there. A policy I still don't understand...just seems to be ASKING for trouble, and ASKING for people to post uselessly in the technical areas.
This is easy. M4C is NOT about the GD (unlike other forums). If you want to talk about the zombie hordes, how your girlfriends sister hit on you or how many times you use the restroom a day, there are forums for that. We want to see discussions about training, guns, gear and ideas.
When people post useless crap in the technical forums, their post count gets zero’ d out or they are banned. If you are only here for the EE and GD, you won't last long.
Is there a thread about when people (regular private citizens) think they would intervene in defense of a third party?
Yes. Been involved in a couple myself!
Is there a thread that discusses how people view carrying a concealed handgun in a business with "NO GUNS" posted on the front door, but where doing so is legal? Just a couple examples.
Again, yes. Posted in it as well.
So all your topics have BEEN discussed here (all without having a CCW dedicated forum)!
C4
This used to be even more true then it is now. The forum has been flooded over the past few months, and it feels like the mods just can't keep up. I come here because it's a collection of SME's, and professionals from LEO and MIL sharing info, and helping out.
Agree.
I think what this place really needs instead of a CCW forum is a New Member general discussion section to go along with the new member intro section. This would be an absolute "flame free zone" where new members can ask any question they want. The SME's and veteran members can answer those questions if they choose, and the main forums aren't clogged up. I think this would make everyone happy in the end. If you're the kind that has random off the wall questions post them there, if you hate reading the same caliber, best gun, best CCW questions stay away.
I mostly read, read, search, and read some more here.
Ha, just saw we have a new to shooting forum.
https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=173
C4
Really? So that booklet they got when they went through their CCW class is now missing?
What "CCW" class?
What booklet??
FYI: I have been licensed to carry by three states and the word "concealed" has never appeared anywhere on any of my licenses or permits, none of them are a "CCW" in any way, and I have never had a mandated "CCW class" to get any of those licenses.
Magic_Salad0892
02-11-13, 13:28
I'd like to add something.
If you ever get bored, ever, for any reason:
Go on M4C, go to the orange search button, and just type in VZ58, Galil, AKM, HK91/G3, FAL, 1911, FNC, MAC-11, UZI, or MP5.
You can lose yourself in all the information. It's great. (I just did it for like an hour with the VZ-58, as I've kinda lusted over an 11.75'' 7.62x39mm one for a few months.)
But the reason I bring up the search thing, is because almost any question you need right now has been answered. (This is why I don't start too many topics.)
What "CCW" class?
What booklet??
FYI: I have been licensed to carry by three states and the word "concealed" has never appeared anywhere on any of my licenses or permits, none of them are a "CCW" in any way, and I have never had a mandated "CCW class" to get any of those licenses.
The CCW (or CCH) classes I have attended, the instructor GIVES the students a booklet of the states laws.
C4
The CCW (or CCH) classes I have attended, the instructor GIVES the students a booklet of the states laws.
C4
That's fine for you, but a great many people have not attended a concealed-anything class of any kind.
Or it has been years and they lost the book, or the laws have changed since they received the book, or they are asking about all of the other states they are going to travel to, or....
A few years ago if you were to travel to GA, and GA recognized your license, you would have to know what a "public gathering" as (not defined anywhere in any law) in order to carry legally. And you would have to know what a "reasonable distance" from a bus stop was (again, not defined anywhere in any law) as well.
I think the reality is that any and all CCW-related questions have or can be handled with the existing forum framework, and I'm not entirely sure how creating a CCW specific sub forum will make those same questions easier to ask or information harder to locate. Only thing I could see not really being covered would be state/regional legal issues, but you could probably get discussions going in the regional/local sub forum.
"What would you do" questions are HUGE.
And usually result in a metric shit ton of imagineering that is generally going to be less helpful to someone than input from experts that actually train others on these matters. Training and Ask an SME sub forums should be able to handle legit discussions like this more than adequately while actually providing worthwhile information. If the current format is keeping these types of threads from exploding, then that's all the better.
As for the +1, "like", "rep" gimmicks, leave them for the other forums. Mods are busy enough as it is without having to deal with someone complaining about the negative rep someone else gave them.
Not to challenge the OP, but I'd be curious to hear what info he thinks he needs that can't easily be found or asked here.
What "CCW" class?
What booklet??
FYI: I have been licensed to carry by three states and the word "concealed" has never appeared anywhere on any of my licenses or permits, none of them are a "CCW" in any way, and I have never had a mandated "CCW class" to get any of those licenses.
The word "Concealed" is all over Missouri's, and Kansas' carry laws.
Here's "A" booklet
http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/MSHPWeb/Publications/Brochures/documents/SHP-863.pdf
That's fine for you, but a great many people have not attended a concealed-anything class of any kind.
If they are not LE, how are they carrying a concealed gun then (legally)?
Or it has been years and they lost the book, or the laws have changed since they received the book, or they are asking about all of the other states they are going to travel to, or....
Sure, I can buy that. This is why there are TONS of resources online.
http://www.carryconcealed.net/legal
A few years ago if you were to travel to GA, and GA recognized your license, you would have to know what a "public gathering" as (not defined anywhere in any law) in order to carry legally. And you would have to know what a "reasonable distance" from a bus stop was (again, not defined anywhere in any law) as well.
IMHO, a lot of this stuff is just silly and is rarely (if ever enforced). The truth is, keep your gun hidden and out of sight and you will be fine. In the event you have to defend your life (and are too close to a bus stop), you will be alive and charged with a low level felony or a misdemeanor. I'm ok with that (BTW). ;)
C4
I think the reality is that any and all CCW-related questions have or can be handled with the existing forum framework, and I'm not entirely sure how creating a CCW specific sub forum will make those same questions easier to ask or information harder to locate. Only thing I could see not really being covered would be state/regional legal issues, but you could probably get discussions going in the regional/local sub forum.
And usually result in a metric shit ton of imagineering that is generally going to be less helpful to someone than input from experts that actually train others on these matters. Training and Ask an SME sub forums should be able to handle legit discussions like this more than adequately while actually providing worthwhile information. If the current format is keeping these types of threads from exploding, then that's all the better.
As for the +1, "like", "rep" gimmicks, leave them for the other forums. Mods are busy enough as it is without having to deal with someone complaining about the negative rep someone else gave them.
Not to challenge the OP, but I'd be curious to hear what info he thinks he needs that can't easily be found or asked here.
+ 1. :D
Sorry, am trying to get to 24,000 posts so I can use the super secret squirrel GD and EE forums. :dirol:
C4
If they are not LE, how are they carrying a concealed gun then (legally)?
In PA, there's no classroom requirement or exam. Just fill out the application and pay the fee.
That's fine for you, but a great many people have not attended a concealed-anything class of any kind.
Or it has been years and they lost the book, or the laws have changed since they received the book, or they are asking about all of the other states they are going to travel to, or....
A few years ago if you were to travel to GA, and GA recognized your license, you would have to know what a "public gathering" as (not defined anywhere in any law) in order to carry legally. And you would have to know what a "reasonable distance" from a bus stop was (again, not defined anywhere in any law) as well.
Those kind of questions can all be easily answered by going to each individuals State's website and reading the laws on "carry permits" or CCW's.
In PA, there's no classroom requirement or exam. Just fill out the application and pay the fee.
I know (am familiar with PA). With that said, MANY states do put out booklets with the States laws (or are easily found online).
C4
Hey, you asked. ;)
MANY states do put out booklets with the States laws (or are easily found online).
Wasn't contesting that. The info is definitely out there (it's even in this thread, now).
I'd like to add something.
If you ever get bored, ever, for any reason:
Go on M4C, go to the orange search button, and just type in VZ58, Galil, AKM, HK91/G3, FAL, 1911, FNC, MAC-11, UZI, or MP5.
You can lose yourself in all the information.
BINGO!! And its not about being lazy. I think it makes way more organizational sense to have SD/CCW specific topics located in one spot instead of being placed all over map. Same reason we have an Optics sub-forum or Hunting sub-forum...
The people here would be the same people asking & answering questions that are already doing it in other forums. I don't think the "stupidity" level would be any higher than it is elsewhere.
Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2
SeriousStudent
02-11-13, 15:21
Glock Talk has a few nice CCW sub-forums. One is the "self defense" forum moderated by Mas Ayoob and the other is called "carry issues". When I lived in Commiefornia I would frequent the "California Conceal Carry" forum as well.
Good luck with your search.
I was, and still am a member there. I wander through their EE sometimes, looking for knives or holsters.
But when I read things on GT, I also remember that they banned Grant Timberlake from their AR forum and Larry Vickers from their pistol forum. I still remember those threads. People got all butt hurt over polite honest answers. Their particular sacred cows just did not hold up to reality, and the easy solution was to boot the two guys that had real data.
So I keep that in the back of my head. Always have a grain of salt handy, no matter where you are.
The word "Concealed" is all over Missouri's, and Kansas' carry laws.
Here's "A" booklet
http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/MSHPWeb/Publications/Brochures/documents/SHP-863.pdf
Okay?
The word concealed appears nowhere here in Georgia, nor did it in Indiana, nor New Hampshire, nor many other states.
See the problems you create when you ignorantly apply your own state's laws and terms across the entire country?
If they are not LE, how are they carrying a concealed gun then (legally)?
Grant, I think you need to go spend your "one year" reading forums such as "Carry Issues" over on Glock Talk.
You are, no offense intended, extremely ignorant on this topic.
Many, MANY states, accounting for many MILLIONS of licensed and legal carriers, do not require training
Perhaps you should try the search button?
I was, and still am a member there. I wander through their EE sometimes, looking for knives or holsters.
But when I read things on GT, I also remember that they banned Grant Timberlake from their AR forum and Larry Vickers from their pistol forum. I still remember those threads. People got all butt hurt over polite honest answers. Their particular sacred cows just did not hold up to reality, and the easy solution was to boot the two guys that had real data.
So I keep that in the back of my head. Always have a grain of salt handy, no matter where you are.
Yes.
Glock Talk is full of moderators who are very much "their way or the highway", and extremely intelligent, experienced, knowledgeable, quality posters have been run off or banned outright.
That's one of the reasons I post here. The "black rifle" forum on GT, for example, is pretty lulzy.
Those kind of questions can all be easily answered by going to each individuals State's website and reading the laws on "carry permits" or CCW's.
No, actually, those questions could not be answered that way. Just like I specifically and explicitly stated in that post, those terms were not defined. The law did NOT give you the answer to those questions. It also did not tell you what a "knife designed for the purpose of offense or defense" was, although it regulated them.
Sometimes the laws just plain suck and reading them will not tell you what is and is not legal. Such was the case here in GA with the examples I gave.
Although in this case asking the question of others wasn't much help because nobody knew, not even the lawyers who were experienced that area. It was a "whatever the prosecution wants it to be" situation. But being able to discuss it with other people was helpful far beyond what simply reading statutes was.
Okay?
The word concealed appears nowhere here in Georgia, nor did it in Indiana, nor New Hampshire, nor many other states.
See the problems you create when you ignorantly apply your own state's laws and terms across the entire country?
Grant, I think you need to go spend your "one year" reading forums such as "Carry Issues" over on Glock Talk.
You are, no offense intended, extremely ignorant on this topic.
Many, MANY states, accounting for many MILLIONS of licensed and legal carriers, do not require training
Perhaps you should try the search button?
Horse****. The word concealed is used though out NH's statute in regards to resident non-resident permits and reciprocity between states.
Opening paragraph of the permit for a handgun application uses the word concealed as a reason for obtaining the permit.
New Hampshire Laws Relative to License to Carry
These statutes can be found at RSA 159:6 et seq. and may be accessed at any legal library or at http://www.nh.gov Salient points are provided below:
• License to carry is required to carry a loaded pistol or revolver in a motor vehicle or to carry a concealed, loaded pistol or revolver.
I'm originally from NH.
No, actually, those questions could not be answered that way. Just like I specifically and explicitly stated in that post, those terms were not defined. The law did NOT give you the answer to those questions. It also did not tell you what a "knife designed for the purpose of offense or defense" was, although it regulated them.
Sometimes the laws just plain suck and reading them will not tell you what is and is not legal. Such was the case here in GA with the examples I gave.
Although in this case asking the question of others wasn't much help because nobody knew, not even the lawyers who were experienced that area. It was a "whatever the prosecution wants it to be" situation. But being able to discuss it with other people was helpful far beyond what simply reading statutes was.
I would suggest contacting your local prosecutor then, and document the conversation.
Horse****. The word concealed is used though out NH's statute in regards to resident non-resident permits and reciprocity between states.
Opening paragraph of the permit for a handgun application uses the word concealed as a reason for obtaining the permit.
New Hampshire Laws Relative to License to Carry
These statutes can be found at RSA 159:6 et seq. and may be accessed at any legal library or at http://www.nh.gov Salient points are provided below:
• License to carry is required to carry a loaded pistol or revolver in a motor vehicle or to carry a concealed, loaded pistol or revolver.
I'm originally from NH.
I suppose it does. FAQ:
http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/nhsp/ssb/permitslicensing/faq.html#A1
The NH Non-Resident Pistol License does not contain the wording "carry concealed." Can I "carry concealed" with this license?
Yes, a license issued under RSA 159:6 is a full privilege concealed carry license.
What I was getting at, and perhaps the way I stated it was not correct, is that the permit/license does not have the word "concealed" anywhere on it.
I would suggest contacting your local prosecutor then, and document the conversation.
That would not be legally binding (as far as I know, IANAL), and it would do no good whatsoever as soon as I left his jurisdiction. It's a big state. Also, people tried that...no definitive answer was received. I also tried contacting the AG, and could not get a response.
Fortunately a grassroots state Pro-2A organization speerheaded a campaign that got rid of those laws entirely, so it is no longer an issue. :)
Now most of hte problems are the government refusing to follow the law. :rolleyes:
Just Keep Swimming
02-11-13, 15:40
But when I read things on GT, I also remember that they banned Grant Timberlake from their AR forum and Larry Vickers from their pistol forum. I still remember those threads. People got all butt hurt over polite honest answers. Their particular sacred cows just did not hold up to reality, and the easy solution was to boot the two guys that had real data.
What!?! Glock Talk banned LAV! F**k em then. My Dad is a retired SEAL and UDT Frogman and I have the utmost respect for our current and former military members. Spineless lemmings need not apply.
Seriously, I am relatively new to weapons forums and was just trying to help someone out with my limited experience. I am just now learning how these things work and mostly read and research (orange button) rather than post due to my inexperience.
That being said I sincerely do appreciate people that take the time to answer questions due to their prior experience, expertise or just plain old opinion. As you can tell by my post count I can find almost everything I need via research because you all have been so generous and taken the time to participate in these threads.
Thanks from a new guy...
SeriousStudent
02-11-13, 16:25
My respects to your father.
There is good info on GT, the serial number reference has helped me many times when buying used pistols.
It's basically a situation of considering the source. There are smart people in lots of places. There are also booger-eaters, usually in higher proportion.
So it's read, read, read. Welcome to M4C, by the way.
Many of the topics involving CCW are covered within existing sub forums, like guns, gear, and training. That being said, the idea of a consolidated CCW sub isn't without merit. The trick is defining what it's mission and target audience is. If undertaken, a moderator dedicated to the topic that could give it a single, consistent management flow would be ideal.
Urban_Redneck
02-11-13, 17:38
+ 1. :D
Sorry, am trying to get to 24,000 posts so I can use the super secret squirrel GD and EE forums. :dirol:
C4
How does one ever get into the GD when every topic posed for discussion is met by, "use the search button"? :suicide:
This site has a certain culture and POV. Being more SME driven it is not for everyone, especially the thin skinned. Since I figured out all the abbreviations and acronyms, it has become my goldmine.
Thank you.
Many of the topics involving CCW are covered within existing sub forums, like guns, gear, and training. That being said, the idea of a consolidated CCW sub isn't without merit. The trick is defining what it's mission and target audience is. If undertaken, a moderator dedicated to the topic that could give it a single, consistent management flow would be ideal.
You said the key word "consolidated"! Anytime someone has a question related to SD or CCW, it's an automatic search first. The topic itself covers so many different areas whether it's handguns, shotguns, rifles, holsters, ammo, safes, laws... the list goes on. I think the mission and target audience would be self explanatory. If it's directly related to anything CCW or SD, it should be there. The P, P & P forum is the perfect place for it. Heck, if Fitness & Nutrition has is own sub on M4C, I would certainly think SD & CCW would also.
Just Keep Swimming
02-11-13, 18:40
My respects to your father.
There is good info on GT, the serial number refrence has helped me many times when buying used pistols.
It's basically a situation of considering the source. There are smart people in lots of places. There are also booger-eaters, usually in higher proportion.
So it's read, read, read. Welcome to M4C, by the way.
A big thank you SeriousStudent...for the compliment to my Dad as well as the welcome. As a new AR owner (yes, one of those people) but a long time pistol and shotgun owner and enthusiast I really value this site and the information I get from it. Back to researching. Cheers to you...
Got the first and last useful answer to my original post back on page one of this diatribe:)
Sorry I hit a hot button
Guess I'll go hit the Search button for more info:)
John - aka the OP
Got the first and last useful answer to my original post back on page one of this diatribe:)
Sorry I hit a hot button
Guess I'll go hit the Search button for more info:)
LOL. Perfectly illustrative.
/
Surfing has revealed that most states or regions either have dedicated ccw forums or general firearm forums with ccw sub forums. Also state websites present gun laws and list licensing requirements for ccw.
Motivated persons will start here with their study if they lack a spoon feeder. People with little or zero knowledge have a lot of work to do, and they will only be confused and mis-informed by forums. They exist in large numbers and are often seen in ccw classes.
My opinion: we have valuable knowledge threads for the serious student who can read and operate a search button. I would dread seeing our ranks fill up with folks who lacked basic, fundamental gun knowledge--persons who were attracted to a ccw section--nice people likely--but folks who entered the class with a poor background. They would burden the moderators.
I would dread seeing our ranks fill up with folks who lacked basic, fundamental gun knowledge--persons who were attracted to a ccw section--nice people likely--but folks who entered the class with a poor background. They would burden the moderators.
These are precisely the people that we need to 'bring into the fold'.
These are the FUDs that are okay with anti gun legislation, simply due to ignorance on the matter.
I don't see why we want to turn them away.
I can't figure out why people think that having a separate category for SD/CCW would bring the idiots flocking to M4C? I just don't see the correlation. The search button excuse is just simply getting old. If everything has already been discussed, why not just have one big search button and no categories at all. Seriously!? I have yet to hear a valid reason for not doing it. I'd be interested in hearing a Mods opinion.
To the OP: I apologize for my involvement in leading your thread in a different direction. This should've been discussed in the Site Questions/Comments forum.
Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2
Okay?
The word concealed appears nowhere here in Georgia, nor did it in Indiana, nor New Hampshire, nor many other states.
See the problems you create when you ignorantly apply your own state's laws and terms across the entire country?
It says Concealed Carry Handgun on Ohio's (FYI). With that said, most everyone (that has any common sense) knows what CCW/CCH means. Notice how NO ONE else had an issue with it??? That is referred to as a clue.
Grant, I think you need to go spend your "one year" reading forums such as "Carry Issues" over on Glock Talk.
You are, no offense intended, extremely ignorant on this topic.
I have been on forums since the 90's. I have had my CCW since the early 90's. I am familiar with just about every single concealed carry discussion, debate and scenario. You have absolutely no more experience on this topic than me.
Many, MANY states, accounting for many MILLIONS of licensed and legal carriers, do not require training
Perhaps you should try the search button?
Great. Many states do though. Each and every State has info posted on a website that explains the State laws and if you cannot find it, there are websites that specialize int CCW laws.
C4
I have been on forums since the 90's. I have had my CCW since the early 90's. I am familiar with just about every single concealed carry discussion, debate and scenario. You have absolutely no more experience on this topic than me.
C4
So why are you asking me how people (non LEO) legally carry without having attended a CCW class??
That's fine for you, but a great many people have not attended a concealed-anything class of any kind.
If they are not LE, how are they carrying a concealed gun then (legally)?
I would suggest contacting your local prosecutor then, and document the conversation.
Right (or State AG). Anything is better than letting some stranger on the errornet tell you their interpretation of the law.
C4
Right (or State AG). Anything is better than letting some stranger on the errornet tell you their interpretation of the law.
C4
Sorry, that is a no-go as well.
VVV
That would not be legally binding (as far as I know, IANAL), and it would do no good whatsoever as soon as I left his jurisdiction. It's a big state. Also, people tried that...no definitive answer was received. I also tried contacting the AG, and could not get a response.
Fortunately a grassroots state Pro-2A organization speerheaded a campaign that got rid of those laws entirely, so it is no longer an issue. :)
Now most of hte problems are the government refusing to follow the law. :rolleyes:
^^^
So why are you asking me how people (non LEO) legally carry without having attended a CCW class??
I wasn't. For the majority of the States, a person is required to apply for a permit or attend a training class or both. If a person's State requires a permit and they carry a firearm (without seeking a permit) they would be in violation of the law. That was point.
C4
I wasn't. For the majority of the States, a person is required to apply for a permit or attend a training class or both. If a person's State requires a permit and they carry a firearm (without seeking a permit) they would be in violation of the law. That was point.
C4
What?
I said that a lot of people never took a class.
You asked how they were legally carrying.
How does them not having a permit enter into that at all?
BTW: Your opening statement isn't technically correct. There are states that require a permit, and states that do not require a permit. Among the states that require a permit some require training in order to receive the permit, some do not. There is no such thing as a state that requires training but does not require a permit, though
What?
I said that a lot of people never took a class.
You asked how they were legally carrying.
How does them not having a permit enter into that at all?
BTW: Your opening statement isn't technically correct. There are states that require a permit, and states that do not require a permit. Among the states that require a permit some require training in order to receive the permit, some do not. There is no such thing as a state that requires training but does not require a permit, though
I was specifically talking about my State. I realize that some States don't require training, test or even a permit to carry.
C4
I was specifically talking about my State. I realize that some States don't require training, test or even a permit to carry.
C4
Okay.
That was confusing, because I was talking in general about the entire country, as people from the entire country visit M4C and these other forums (which I stated explicitly), and you responded to me with that question.
Okay.
That was confusing, because I was talking in general about the entire country, as people from the entire country visit M4C and these other forums, and you responded to me with that question.
Sorry, I am not really concerned with other States gun laws (as I don't live there). Couple this with drastic differences between each one and you could spend every waking moment following each States laws and oddities. Sorry for the confusion.
C4
I think that most of the CCW-related topics would be at home in either the handguns or regional sub-forums. I prefer to use the search button or Google.
Sorry, I am not really concerned with other States gun laws (as I don't live there). Couple this with drastic differences between each one and you could spend every waking moment following each States laws and oddities. Sorry for the confusion.
C4
I respectively propose that, perhaps, the below quoted statement is less accurate than you lead us to believe.
I have been on forums since the 90's. I have had my CCW since the early 90's. I am familiar with just about every single concealed carry discussion, debate and scenario. You have absolutely no more experience on this topic than me.
I have a pretty good working knowledge of the carry laws of almost every state in the nation as a result of:
1) Travel (necessity)
2) Lots of time on carry forums that deal with the entire country
3) Plenty of research on my own
I do not doubt that you know more about YOUR state's carry/gun laws than I do, but it sounds like the other 49 + D.C. might be up for grabs.
Awesome. So we are all getting along then. You know, if either of you carry a revolver, then this is in the wrong forum since this is: "Handguns-Semi Auto A Dedicated Forum for Semi-Automatic Handguns". :rolleyes:
I think that most of the CCW-related topics would be at home in either the handguns or regional sub-forums. I prefer to use the search button or Google.
...again, which handgun sub-forum? Must depend on what you're carrying as to where you ask the CCW related question. :banghead:
Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2
Awesome. So we are all getting along then. You know, if either of you carry a revolver, then this is in the wrong forum since this is: "Handguns-Semi Auto A Dedicated Forum for Semi-Automatic Handguns". :rolleyes:
...again, which handgun sub-forum? Must depend on what you're carrying as to where you ask the CCW related question. :banghead:
lol
I have and carry both. I guess you just pick one and go with it (forum to ask your question in)
I respectively propose that, perhaps, the below quoted statement is less accurate than you lead us to believe.
LOL, not really concerned with what you believe. My word is good on M4C. ;)
I have a pretty good working knowledge of the carry laws of almost every state in the nation as a result of:
1) Travel (necessity)
2) Lots of time on carry forums that deal with the entire country
3) Plenty of research on my own
Awesome. Do you want a cookie? I have better things to do these days than hangout on gun forums (like hangout with my family, run my two companies, shoot, attend training, teach training classes, fly fish, etc, etc, etc).
I do not doubt that you know more about YOUR state's carry/gun laws than I do, but it sounds like the other 49 + D.C. might be up for grabs.
Who cares?? Does this really matter?? I guess it would if I was trying to run a national CCW database forum for gun laws and reqs, but I am not. So.....
C4
Glock Talk has a few nice CCW sub-forums. One is the "self defense" forum moderated by Mas Ayoob and the other is called "carry issues".
The Glocktalk "carry issues" forum has endless multi-page threads on whether it is a good idea to carry a round in the chamber.
I mean, if you can't figure that one out . . .
Awesome. So we are all getting along then. You know, if either of you carry a revolver, then this is in the wrong forum since this is: "Handguns-Semi Auto A Dedicated Forum for Semi-Automatic Handguns". :rolleyes:
...again, which handgun sub-forum? Must depend on what you're carrying as to where you ask the CCW related question. :banghead:
Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2
Actually, the OP put this thread in the wrong section of the forum. ;)
C4
The Glocktalk "carry issues" forum has endless multi-page threads on whether it is a good idea to carry a round in the chamber.
I mean, if you can't figure that one out . . .
LOL. I ventured over to another CCW forum today to see what kind of quality posts were going on. What did I find? A review of some POS Taurus gun. Two pages of people talking about all the "flawless" rounds they had run through it. :suicide:
Taurus? Really? Your life isn't worth more than this gun??? Ugh.
C4
LOL, not really concerned with what you believe. My word is good on M4C. ;)
Awesome. Do you want a cookie? I have better things to do these days than hangout on gun forums (like hangout with my family, run my two companies, shoot, attend training, teach training classes, fly fish, etc, etc, etc).
Who cares?? Does this really matter?? I guess it would if I was trying to run a national CCW database forum for gun laws and reqs, but I am not. So.....
C4
1. Claim to have superior knowledge than me on a subject
2. Turn around and state exactly the opposite
3. Belittle me for pointing out the above
4. Say none of it even matters
5. Profit?
Is this really what it has come to? When somebody else knows more about a topic than you (after you proclaimed otherwise), you insult them because they have knowledge??
Really? :rolleyes:
"What would you do" questions are HUGE. Actual incidents are discussed. Scenarios are discussed. Hypotheticals are discussed.
Most of the 'what would you do' threads that I've seen on other forums reflect questionable judgement, silly scenarios, and often a dash of social retardation. Same with a lot of the 'it happened to me' threads, as well as some things that just don't ring true like the posters were making some or all of it up or leaving out key details.
A lot of those threads read like they are written and participated in by people who don't know how to wipe their own behinds.
Some examples from concealledcarry.com:
"I witnessed a man trying to break in a couple of houses but he ran and went to another house .. and later he tried to steal my brother's car
Should i call the police?
Wow. Most 12 year olds would know the answer to that one.
Another thread asks:
what shotgun load is best for bringing down small, armed, drones?
Do I need to comment on that one?
A 12 page thread on whether one should carry a round in the chamber. Really?
I'm glad M4carbine.net isn't that type of place.
Is there a thread that discusses how people view carrying a concealed handgun in a business with "NO GUNS" posted on the front door, but where doing so is legal? Just a couple examples.
That's a good example. Most people here will tell you that in that circumstance concealed means concealed. It doesn't require multiple dozen page threads to figure out.
1. Claim to have superior knowledge than me on a subject
2. Turn around and state exactly the opposite
3. Belittle me for pointing out the above
4. Say none of it even matters
5. Profit?
Is this really what it has come to? When somebody else knows more about a topic than you (after you proclaimed otherwise), you insult them because they have knowledge??
Really? :rolleyes:
Actually you read into my post that I was talking about States gun laws (I wasn't). My point about being on forums and talking about CCW issues WASN'T about the laws for each and every state (never cared and never will). It was about all the scenarios people post, type of guns to carry, gear, training, carrying a round chambered, etc ,etc.
You could know something about every single States gun laws. That is great (for you), but matters not to me and doesn't impress me in any way (sorry).
C4
That's a good example. Most people here will tell you that in that circumstance concealed means concealed. It doesn't require multiple dozen page threads to figure out.
Why give your money to a business that doesn't want you to be armed?
What about private property rights? Do they not have the right to tell you that, if you want to be on their property, you cannot bring a gun?
Likewise, you have the right to not go there, and not give them any money or business.
I guess I spoke too soon...
Actually, the OP put this thread in the wrong section of the forum. ;)
C4
Yeah, I know but he's been through a lot & I felt bad putting the shit on him.
Now, let's see... where do I ask that question about tasers? :confused:
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Actually you read into my post that I was talking about States gun laws (I wasn't). My point about being on forums and talking about CCW issues WASN'T about the laws for each and every state (never cared and never will). It was about all the scenarios people post, type of guns to carry, gear, training, carrying a round chambered, etc ,etc.
You could know something about every single States gun laws. That is great (for you), but matters not to me and doesn't impress me in any way (sorry).
C4
That is the kind of knowledge and experience that is valuable to a lot of people, though.
Do you never travel out of state? Do you leave all of your guns at home when you travel?
Most people travel, and crossing a state line can turn you from 100% legal into a felon.
And then some states have local governments, like county or city, with yet more restrictions than the state has. Some have pre-emption so that isn't an issue.
For a LOT of people all of these little nuances in the law can be kind of a big deal.
That's a good example. Most people here will tell you that in that circumstance concealed means concealed. It doesn't require multiple dozen page threads to figure out.
Ya, we like to think people that hang out on this forum have a higher level of IQ and can figure out such basic things.
C4
That is the kind of knowledge and experience that is valuable to a lot of people, though.
Well to be honest, without knowing you, I am going to get my info about the State I am living in or wanting to carry in from that States CCW page or a recognized National Carry website. For all I know, you are a 12yr old girl posting from your parents basement.
Do you never travel out of state? Do you leave all of your guns at home when you travel?
Rarely. When I do, I review their laws to answer my questions.
And then some states have local governments, like county or city, with yet more restrictions than the state has. Some have pre-emption so that isn't an issue.
For a LOT of people all of these little nuances in the law can be kind of a big deal.
Yes it can and I don't think anyone would argue that. Again though, I am not getting my info from some random guy on the errornet.
C4
LOL. I ventured over to another CCW forum today to see what kind of quality posts were going on. What did I find? A review of some POS Taurus gun. Two pages of people talking about all the "flawless" rounds they had run through it. :suicide:
Taurus? Really? Your life isn't worth more than this gun??? Ugh
This was one reason why I didn't post links to the stupid threads I found. I didn't want to encourage people here to click on the links and waste their time reading them.
I guess I spoke too soon...
Yeah, I know but he's been through a lot & I felt bad putting the shit on him.
Now, let's see... where do I ask that question about tasers? :confused:
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For tasers, where you post depends on the question. Want to know which ones are good? Gear section. Want to know how and when you can use it? Training and do a specific call out to the LE on the forum that carry one for a living.
C4
IMO this belittling of people's questions is not becoming. Yes, the "should I carry one in the chamber?" question has been asked a million times. But if nobody helps them, they are stuck in the dark. Should we leave them in the dark? Perhaps we should insult them for being ignorant while we're at it?! Nice.
-john
IMO this belittling of people's questions is not becoming. Yes, the "should I carry one in the chamber?" question has been asked a million times. But if nobody helps them, they are stuck in the dark. Should we leave them in the dark? Perhaps we should insult them for being ignorant while we're at it?! Nice.
I'm not talking about belittling beginner's questions, I'm talking about forums that routinely have multiple dozen page threads on the subject, all of which are all trainwrecks. The ones that have people with 6000 posts chiming in that 'chamber empty carry is why the Israellis won wars . . blah blah."
If I look at a forum and see a number of these stupid threads, along with hypotheticals asking what to do if you are standing in line in Wallmart with your Keltec .25 without a spare mag when 20 Latin Kings decide to take over the store . . it gives me an idea of what type of forum it is and whether its worth spending time there.
BTW, This forum actually does have a New To Firearms/shooting section. Maybe we need to move it to a more prominent location, or maybe I need to read the stickies which I probably missed.
This thread is good example of why some questions don't fly well on this particular forum.
At least we haven't seen any name-calling or ad hominem attacks yet. I attribute that mainly to the limited participation.
For tasers, where you post depends on the question. Want to know which ones are good? Gear section. Want to know how and when you can use it? Training and do a specific call out to the LE on the forum that carry one for a living.
C4
Actually, I was kidding. Sorry. Sometimes sarcasm is hard to project via text... :rolleyes:
but it kinda adds to my point in why I still think an SD/CCW sub-forum would be a good idea.
At least we haven't seen any name-calling or ad hominem attacks yet. I attribute that mainly to the limited participation.
I think I take this as a compliment. Thanks. :p
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Magic_Salad0892
02-12-13, 01:26
BINGO!! And its not about being lazy. I think it makes way more organizational sense to have SD/CCW specific topics located in one spot instead of being placed all over map. Same reason we have an Optics sub-forum or Hunting sub-forum...
The people here would be the same people asking & answering questions that are already doing it in other forums. I don't think the "stupidity" level would be any higher than it is elsewhere.
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You missed the point. I pointed out in that post, that it IS about laziness. I could find any information I wanted. It's all there, and it's all already organized.
You missed the point. I pointed out in that post, that it IS about laziness. I could find any information I wanted. It's all there, and it's all already organized.
Who missed who's point? Read it again.
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Magic_Salad0892
02-12-13, 08:41
Who missed who's point? Read it again.
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You must've missed mine, when I said that any question I wanted has already been answered.
Even when the "Are there any threads on intervening?" thing came up as an example, I was able to find threads.
Also, when somebody asked about Tasers? No need:
(Even though it was in Disaster, Prep, and Planning, instead of Training and Tactics where I thought it'd be.)
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107706
I guess I spoke too soon...
Yeah, I know but he's been through a lot & I felt bad putting the shit on him.
Trust me - I have an amazingly tough skin, so shovel it on. OTOH - Relating to the placement of my question......
I'm guessing from the length and tone of the comments & replies on this thread, that there are many folks who wouldn't know where to stick it (take that how you may:).
FWIW - while I've been on the list for a while, you'll note that I'm more of a listener than a poster based on my round count. I don't have the background of many on the list, so I listen. As I creep into my 7th decade, I find that the more some open their mouths (not implying anyone here, btw:) - the more they show off either their lack of knowledge, or that they are simply a complete ass. I prefer to keep both traits to myself:) I also don't have the time to cruise that many listers do - and this slows my accumulation of knowledge, as well as slowing my response time to those threads I DO want to contribute to or comment on. Search? Sometimes VERY useful. Others - worthless as shit. I give it three tries, then post a Q to the list. Again - driven by limited time.
Time for Round 6, gentlemen.
Have at it:) With any luck, maybe the responses will veer back on topic.
john - aka the OP
You must've missed mine, when I said that any question I wanted has already been answered.
Even when the "Are there any threads on intervening?" thing came up as an example, I was able to find threads.
Also, when somebody asked about Tasers? No need:
(Even though it was in Disaster, Prep, and Planning, instead of Training and Tactics where I thought it'd be.)
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107706
Dude, this is dumb. The "BINGO" was an acknowledgment of what you said. I agree wholeheartedly with you that there is tons of CCW related information out there. The "and it has nothing to do with being lazy" statement was in contradiction to you saying that is about people being lazy. My standpoint is to have a place for all this info instead of it being scattered amongst several different subs. Organization, that's it-nothing else.
That someone who asked about tasers, was me & if you read further, you'll see that it was meant sarcasticly. As in "which sub, out of many possibilities" should I ask it. Sarcasm, that's it-nothing else. In reality, I could care less about them.
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Trust me - I have an amazingly tough skin, so shovel it on. OTOH - Relating to the placement of my question......
I'm guessing from the length and tone of the comments & replies on this thread, that there are many folks who wouldn't know where to stick it (take that how you may:).
FWIW - while I've been on the list for a while, you'll note that I'm more of a listener than a poster based on my round count. I don't have the background of many on the list, so I listen. As I creep into my 7th decade, I find that the more some open their mouths (not implying anyone here, btw:) - the more they show off either their lack of knowledge, or that they are simply a complete ass. I prefer to keep both traits to myself:) I also don't have the time to cruise that many listers do - and this slows my accumulation of knowledge, as well as slowing my response time to those threads I DO want to contribute to or comment on. Search? Sometimes VERY useful. Others - worthless as shit. I give it three tries, then post a Q to the list. Again - driven by limited time.
Time for Round 6, gentlemen.
Have at it:) With any luck, maybe the responses will veer back on topic.
john - aka the OP
Very well said. I meant no disrespect BTW. Both of us knew it wasn't your fault for the thread derailment. It was all in jest.
I'm new here & I'm finding that people often misunderstand me & my sarcasm. I'm making a conscious effort to curb that. I like offering what little I have to offer and while doing so, keeping it fun.
Anyway, to try to bring this back on track...
I haven't frequented many CCW forums but some that I found helpful was DefensiveCarry.com & usacarry.com. The second site listed I found helpful for researching when I was looking into having multiple out of state CCW permits.
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Search? Sometimes VERY useful. Others - worthless as shit. I give it three tries, then post a Q to the list. Again - driven by limited time.
As long as you're doing it right, that seems to be a totally reasonable policy.
Regarding your original question, is your issue that you don't think that the information you're after is available here or is it your opinion that you'll find that info easier somewhere else? Seems to be enough members with actual qualifications here without having to wade through a bunch of posts about what threat level someone went to when they misidentified the paperboy.
A 12 page thread on whether one should carry a round in the chamber. Really?
I'm glad M4carbine.net isn't that type of place.
Unfortunately I've seen more and more of this here. I mostly read and search, and rarely comment since I have no experience or expertise to share. I can go to my local gun forum to ask/participate in dumb questions; I come here to read educated discussions between experienced contributors.
What would be the best ( i.e. the equivalent of this forum, but relating to ccw issues) CCW forum? As an Illinois resident fast approaching the possibility - I need good, solid info to come up to speed ASAP.
The most important thing about defensive use of a firearm is mindset—the will to fight. Descending in order from there are tactics, skill, and gear.
I once heard a story in class: a boy awoke in the middle of the night to the sound of screams and gunshots elsewhere in his house. He got up, loaded a single-shot 22 rifle, and stood behind the door to his room. When the man who had killed the rest of his family entered his room, the boy stepped out and killed him with one shot to the back of the head.
Mindset? Check.
Tactics? Superb.
Skill? Adequate for the situation.
Gear? Not what anyone would choose, but with the other three elements in place, it did the job.
You’re on your own for mindset. You can learn skill and tactics, and there are tons of good threads here about how to do that. I’d get introductory training from a reputable source (before too many half-assed knuckleheads hang out their shingles as "Certified Illinois Firearms Trainers" or whatever else the law demands) and practice what you learned, then bone up on Illinois law once it’s passed.
The hard part about gear is that you have to make up your mind for yourself based on your own experience. That means dropping a lot of cash on guns and ammo before you arrive at the answer, but that's the only road to mastery. Probably the best way to start down that road is to pick a load from here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887 and heed the advice about guns that it includes. Upgrade your pistol as needed and get a good holster—you can find threads on both of these topics easily--and remember that you've only handled the least important aspect of this issue. To handle the others, you have to train more and practice what you learned then follow that up with specific training in pertinent areas, then practice that, then repeat the training/practice cycle for the rest of your life.
That’s the universal take on defensive use of firearms. The specifics of doing it in Illinois will remain unknown until the law is passed and we see what it allows and how it goes about doing that.
Many forum members have been through the journey that you’re just starting. They’ve taken a lot of wrong turns and come up with the approaches that you see here. It’s a lot easier to get the right answer from them when you ask specific questions with enough detail for them to provide solid answers. For example, here’s my first post on M4Carbine: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=68108
Most posters here won't even read a “what if” thread because it’s too easy to misconstrue advice given out of context, and then the thread turns into a food fight. It’s better to ask about a real situation with specific details and see where the answers lead, as shown here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=123174
Hope this helps.
Okie John
A 12 page thread on whether one should carry a round in the chamber. Really?
I'm glad M4carbine.net isn't that type of place.
I agree that M4carbine isn't that kind of place. It's a different kind of place.
This thread is at 115 posts and counting.
This thread is at 115 posts and counting.
And how many pertain to the OP's original question? I know I was partially guilty for the derailment, and I apologized. Now, out of respect to the OP, how about getting back on topic?
ETA: I mean no disrespect...
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I'm not pointing fingers. This thread is very civil. There is a lot of mental masturbation, but it is the internet after all.
My only point is observation that any kind of holier-than-thou attitude comparing M4C to any other forum on the internet on any given topic is really just a matter of perspective. M4C does some things extremely well. On some subjects, it's no different than any other internet forum and sometimes worse depending on the subject and sometimes depending on who's posting in the thread.
I'm not pointing fingers. This thread is very civil. There is a lot of mental masturbation, but it is the internet after all.
My only point is observation that any kind of holier-than-thou attitude comparing M4C to any other forum on the internet on any given topic is really just a matter of perspective. M4C does some things extremely well. On some subjects, it's no different than any other internet forum and sometimes worse depending on the subject and sometimes depending on who's posting in the thread.
I might be biased, but I have not seen the level of SME and Industry Professionals (actually participating) on any other forum less LF.
Being an open to the public forum, you are always going to get village idiots posting. The mods and staff work hard to lock down those threads and ban people in violation of the rules. While not perfect, it is the "best of the rest" IMHO.
C4
I might be biased, but I have not seen the level of SME and Industry Professionals (actually participating) on any other forum less LF.
Being an open to the public forum, you are always going to get village idiots posting. The mods and staff work hard to lock down those threads and ban people in violation of the rules. While not perfect, it is the "best of the rest" IMHO.
C4
I'm not necessarily talking about village idiots. In most cases they mean well and it's easy to just skip over an annoying thread. And generally the SMEs are either polite or absent from threads with noob questions. IMHO the thing that will keep M4C from ever being any kind of entry-level forum for anything is snarky, supercilious assholes, of which this forum has at least its fair share, and a general culture of arrogance and impatience for stupid questions that results in locked threads, sarcastic responses, and hurt feelings.
I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. In some ways it's what makes this a valuable forum, as you suggest, at least to a certain segment of the shooting public. If you ask a question about the merits of Wilderness Tactical belts for your holster, you're likely to get a very useful discussion. If you ask whether to carry with a loaded chamber, a common question from a new CCW, you're likely to get sarcasm, name-calling, a directive to use the search button, and a locked thread. Probably just better that M4C just stay in its lane. It is what it is. It's not everything to all people, which is why there are several other popular gun forums around the country.
Insta-Gator
02-13-13, 08:05
I'd have to say this is the best CCW forum. Just look around in the subs. Training and tactics is a good place to start. There's a much better signal to noise ratio here than I've found anywhere else with regard to most serious aspects of shooting including CCW.
I like that. Other forums can be fun, but there's a lot of 'boys will be boys' going on there. There's another that I way to snooty for my level of interest/skill. M4C seems to balance well.
I'm not necessarily talking about village idiots. In most cases they mean well and it's easy to just skip over an annoying thread. And generally the SMEs are either polite or absent from threads with noob questions. IMHO the thing that will keep M4C from ever being any kind of entry-level forum for anything is snarky, supercilious assholes, of which this forum has at least its fair share, and a general culture of arrogance and impatience for stupid questions that results in locked threads, sarcastic responses, and hurt feelings.
I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. In some ways it's what makes this a valuable forum, as you suggest, at least to a certain segment of the shooting public. If you ask a question about the merits of Wilderness Tactical belts for your holster, you're likely to get a very useful discussion. If you ask whether to carry with a loaded chamber, a common question from a new CCW, you're likely to get sarcasm, name-calling, a directive to use the search button, and a locked thread. Probably just better that M4C just stay in its lane. It is what it is. It's not everything to all people, which is why there are several other popular gun forums around the country.
I agree that this is a tough forum on noobs that don't do a lot of reading prior.
New shooters with HONEST questions are always helped (though they might get a few rude comments). This will always be the case on any forum. What is more common is noobs with an attitude. They tend to be married to their purchase, have zero training and know what they know from playing video games/zombie movies and TV.
C4
True. This one is geared more towards the professional trigger puller (Mil or LE) and trained Civy.
I think people get tired of the stupidity, lack of moderating and low knowledge level and come here.
C4
That is exactly what happened in my case.
PathofPain
02-13-13, 12:27
I'm new here but I've been learning a lot in the past several months. Some of the main ideas that stick out that wasn't immediately the first thing on my mind regarding CC were:
1. Ability to carry a bigger firearm than most think is feasible
2. Selecting something with a good aftermarker support (holsters, sights, etc)
3. Selecting something that is servicable (able to get factory parts)
I'm new here but I've been learning a lot in the past several months. Some of the main ideas that stick out that wasn't immediately the first thing on my mind regarding CC were:
1. Ability to carry a bigger firearm than most think is feasible
2. Selecting something with a good aftermarker support (holsters, sights, etc)
3. Selecting something that is servicable (able to get factory parts)
Are these your questions?
C4
PathofPain
02-13-13, 12:42
Are these your questions?
C4
No, more learning experiences. Things that I wouldn't have really thought of on my own just starting out with CCW, but have picked up on as good themes I've seen here.
No, more learning experiences. Things that I wouldn't have really thought of on my own just starting out with CCW, but have picked up on as good themes I've seen here.
Gotcha. Was just making sure.
C4
PathofPain
02-13-13, 14:07
Gotcha. Was just making sure.
C4
Thanks Grant, I appreciate it.
I will also echo previous sentiments in this thread - 'following' this forum as a non-member for many months definitely helped to acclimate me to the 'forum culture' so-to-speak. I feel that I'm at a point that I can provide (limited) meaningful discussion, ask relevant questions, and know how/when to use the search fuction:D
I'm not necessarily talking about village idiots. In most cases they mean well and it's easy to just skip over an annoying thread. And generally the SMEs are either polite or absent from threads with noob questions. IMHO the thing that will keep M4C from ever being any kind of entry-level forum for anything is snarky, supercilious assholes, of which this forum has at least its fair share, and a general culture of arrogance and impatience for stupid questions that results in locked threads, sarcastic responses, and hurt feelings.
I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. In some ways it's what makes this a valuable forum, as you suggest, at least to a certain segment of the shooting public. If you ask a question about the merits of Wilderness Tactical belts for your holster, you're likely to get a very useful discussion. If you ask whether to carry with a loaded chamber, a common question from a new CCW, you're likely to get sarcasm, name-calling, a directive to use the search button, and a locked thread. Probably just better that M4C just stay in its lane. It is what it is. It's not everything to all people, which is why there are several other popular gun forums around the country.
I agree. But I kind of like it the way it is. It's the whole "not everyone gets a trophy" mentality that makes M4C what it is.
I do think the New To Firearms / Shooting subforum is a great idea, but I worry whether those who need to be there will post there. An example of why...
A local range has waivers you fill out. The last question is "What is your firearm skill level?" with "Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced" being the options. I've talked with the staff before, and almost no one puts "Beginner". Even if they are renting a firearm and don't own one - they will put "Intermediate".
I still feel weird about circling "Advanced" and stick to "Intermediate", and I'm someone who works in the industry, has been around firearms for more than 15 years, held a concealed carry permit for more than 5 years, takes a few classes a year, and shoots a couple hundred rounds weekly. But in my mind - an Advanced Shooter is an instructor, a high speed operator, a high level competitor, or someone who generally lives and breathes shooting firearms every day. So even with the stupid little form at the LGS, I try and stay modest and in my lane.
I think that's the issue a lot of times with M4C. Someone joins who is the "gun guy" in their small world because they shoot once a month at the local indoor range and have modified a few of their weapons. Then they come here and try and preach to men who KILL MOTHER ****ERS FOR A LIVING about the reasons why carrying with a round in the chamber is a bad idea. That formula is of course going to lead to some blunt responses and hurt feelings.
Modesty and realizing that there is always someone better than you helps with preventing bruised egos, and keeps the flame lit to keep striving for the next rung on the ladder of excellence.
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 15:20
Well said, Steve.
Modesty and realizing that there is always someone better than you helps with preventing bruised egos, and keeps the flame lit to keep striving for the next rung on the ladder of excellence.
This little tidbit here could not only benefit some people here but many people in life in general.
Very well said.
Well said, Steve.
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I agree. But I kind of like it the way it is. It's the whole "not everyone gets a trophy" mentality that makes M4C what it is.
I do think the New To Firearms / Shooting subforum is a great idea, but I worry whether those who need to be there will post there. An example of why...
A local range has waivers you fill out. The last question is "What is your firearm skill level?" with "Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced" being the options. I've talked with the staff before, and almost no one puts "Beginner". Even if they are renting a firearm and don't own one - they will put "Intermediate".
I still feel weird about circling "Advanced" and stick to "Intermediate", and I'm someone who works in the industry, has been around firearms for more than 15 years, held a concealed carry permit for more than 5 years, takes a few classes a year, and shoots a couple hundred rounds weekly. But in my mind - an Advanced Shooter is an instructor, a high speed operator, a high level competitor, or someone who generally lives and breathes shooting firearms every day. So even with the stupid little form at the LGS, I try and stay modest and in my lane.
I think that's the issue a lot of times with M4C. Someone joins who is the "gun guy" in their small world because they shoot once a month at the local indoor range and have modified a few of their weapons. Then they come here and try and preach to men who KILL MOTHER ****ERS FOR A LIVING about the reasons why carrying with a round in the chamber is a bad idea. That formula is of course going to lead to some blunt responses and hurt feelings.
Modesty and realizing that there is always someone better than you helps with preventing bruised egos, and keeps the flame lit to keep striving for the next rung on the ladder of excellence.
Agree. I was with Mr. Hackathorn one day at the range and I referred to myself as an average to above average shooter. He laughed at me and advised me that I am in the top percentile of shooters in the US.
In my mind, I suck. I suck because my peers are people like Vickers, Hackathorn etc. Like you said, it is always good to be modest and check a skill level below where you actually are. That way you will always strive to be better.
C4
Agree. I was with Mr. Hackathorn one day at the range and I referred to myself an average to above average shooter. He laughed at me and advised me that I am in the top percentile of shooters in the US.
In my mind, I suck. I suck because my peers are people like Vickers, Hackathorn etc. Like you said, it is always good to be modest and check a skill level below where you actually are. That way you will always strive to be better.
C4
Thanks for making me feel so small... :suicide:
Seriously though, I've used that philosophy in my motorcycle roadracing endeavours. No matter if I just came off of a big win or a National Championship, there was some guy there the next time around to crush me. It keeps you grounded...
Point being, getting your ass handed to you isn't always a bad thing.
Steve and Grant,I agree with these last few posts. I've been involved with shooting,especially handguns,for more than 50 years.
Started hunting seriously when I was 10! Not a day passes that I don't learn some little something.Staying grounded.
I hope it stays that way,as it not only makes me a better shooter,but also a better person.:)
I think a lot of it has to do with:
1. What question is asked.
2. How the question is asked.
3. What type of attitude the poster displays in the initial post and to any responses.
Example 1.
"im lookin to get a gun to carry israelli style and wanna know if a Sig or Glock is better for this. Dont tell me to carry with the chamber loaded because you'll get crucified in court if you ever shoot anyone that way."
Example 2:
"I'm new to guns and not comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber. Can anyone suggest makes of guns with safeties or holsters that will make it safe to do so?"
The bottom line is that if you want a forum where they discuss what Taurus Judge fits best in a Sherpa holster, or what shotgun load works best against drones, there are plenty of forums out there for you.
Anybody make a good ankle holster for a Judge? I plan to carry one on each ankle, for obvious reasons. Also, I recommend that the first chamber be kept empty, for added safety and so as not to get crucified in court. To make it ready, you just cock it and then drop the hammer..usually the sound of that alone makes the bad guys run. :dirol:
I think a lot of it has to do with:
1. What question is asked.
2. How the question is asked.
3. What type of attitude the poster displays in the initial post and to any responses.
I agree with you Ed.
Let me ask some of the senior or more experienced members here: Do most of you feel the majority of CCW/SD related questions are silly or stupid just because of the fact that many of you are so experienced? What I mean is, because of your careers, military background, training, etc the very nature of any CCW question is going to be elementary to you. From comments I'm hearing, it seems insinuated that anyone who asks a question about CCW is a new & an inexperienced shooter. I agree there are dumb questions such as the "carry one in the chamber" but certainly some questions must be legit.
Another point I'd like to make is, and while I realize the rest of the nation has had concealed carry for quite some time, Wisconsin has just adopted it. There are a lot of experienced shooters in this state who don't know the first thing about CCW. Does that make them "New to firearms/shooting"? They just assume that since they handle firearms well that they can carry safely. It would be great to be able point some of these people to M4C & have pro's offer good advice instead of reading BS from cowboys on other sites.
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Do most of you feel the majority of CCW/SD related questions are silly or stupid just because of the fact that many of you are so experienced?
With 20 years of concealed carry experience, I'm not sure if I'm senior enough to answer this question. I'm willing to tackle respectfully stated basic questions because they make me think and separate what I know from what I think I know. If the question or follow-on questions come with a bad attitude, my level of interest drops off considerably.
Okie John
Nobody starts out experienced, and none among us know all that there is to know.
Nobody starts out experienced, and none among us know all that there is to know.
This. Plus, things change--if they didn't, I'd still be carrying a 1911 loaded with 230-grain ball ammo in a Yaqui Slide.
Okie John
.........................
while I find good info on here I tend to depend on specialized forums relating to specific firearms. IMHO there is no one source for the I to you desire. for instance I have an H&K USPc so I'm on the HK Pro forum, I have an XDs, so I'm on an XD forum, etc. M4C is a great forum for all around use, but just like with news or intelligence I never limit myself to one source.
El Pistolero
02-14-13, 05:16
I would say that you are more likely to get the CORRECT (or most intelligent) answer to your questions here.
Catagories are pretty loose on here. Got a carry question? Ask it in the training/tactics forum. Got a HG question, go to the HG forum, etc.
C4
I agree with this, if a newbie comes to M4C and starts posting BS he will get stomped on quick. I get where the OP is coming from, but I read various forums, take in what people say, and decide for myself what to believe and who's advice to follow. I rarely ask questions because almost any question I can think of has been thought of and asked by someone before, I only have to google it.
I agree with you Ed.
Let me ask some of the senior or more experienced members here: Do most of you feel the majority of CCW/SD related questions are silly or stupid just because of the fact that many of you are so experienced? What I mean is, because of your careers, military background, training, etc the very nature of any CCW question is going to be elementary to you. From comments I'm hearing, it seems insinuated that anyone who asks a question about CCW is a new & an inexperienced shooter. I agree there are dumb questions such as the "carry one in the chamber" but certainly some questions must be legit.
Another point I'd like to make is, and while I realize the rest of the nation has had concealed carry for quite some time, Wisconsin has just adopted it. There are a lot of experienced shooters in this state who don't know the first thing about CCW. Does that make them "New to firearms/shooting"? They just assume that since they handle firearms well that they can carry safely. It would be great to be able point some of these people to M4C & have pro's offer good advice instead of reading BS from cowboys on other sites.
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I can only speak for me, but I enjoy helping new shooters out (is my job). My point in the early part of this thread is that there really doesn't need to be a "dedicated" CCW forum as most any and all questions I have seen could be answered in one of the sub forums.
C4
I can only speak for me, but I enjoy helping new shooters out (is my job). My point in the early part of this thread is that there really doesn't need to be a "dedicated" CCW forum as most any and all questions I have seen could be answered in one of the sub forums.
C4
Again, it is assumed that the person is new to shooting & that's what I don't understand. Can't a person with 50 years experience with firearms decide now to get a permit to carry and have a few legitimate questions about it?
I agree most questions can be or have been answered in other subs. My point for a dedicated sub was purely for organizational purposes. Trying to not muddy up the water in the technical forums with CCW questions.
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Again, it is assumed that the person is new to shooting & that's what I don't understand. Can't a person with 50 years experience with firearms decide now to get a permit to carry and have a few legitimate questions about it?
I agree most questions can be or have been answered in other subs. My point for a dedicated sub was purely for organizational purposes. Trying to not muddy up the water in the technical forums with CCW questions.
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Sure and I am not sure who you think is stopping them from asking their question.
A CCW forum COULD keep the info in the same place, but at the end of the day, they will still need to use the search function to find their answer (as most won't scroll through 500 pages of threads to find their answer).
C4
xjustintimex
02-14-13, 08:48
I like this forum and pistol-training.com
Sure and I am not sure who you think is stopping them from asking their question.
C4
I don't recall ever saying that. I just noticed early on that members were saying that if there was a CCW sub it should be in the "New to Firearms/Shooting" sub & that's the correlation I didn't understand.
You're absolutely correct about having to still search. That would be the same as any other topic. I've never debated that.
I do also think that some questions could be asked that might be "gray" enough so as not to fit in any one specific sub.
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The issue is there is no perfect one stop shop M4C is as good an all around forum as I have found but for "concealed carry" I frequent sites specific to the hand gun, this usually offers better insight on holsters and options specific to the handgun in question.
The issue is there is no perfect one stop shop M4C is as good an all around forum as I have found but for "concealed carry" I frequent sites specific to the hand gun, this usually offers better insight on holsters and options specific to the handgun in question.
The most important thing about defensive use of a firearm is mindset—the will to fight. Descending in order from there are tactics, skill, and gear.
I once heard a story in class: a boy awoke in the middle of the night to the sound of screams and gunshots elsewhere in his house. He got up, loaded a single-shot 22 rifle, and stood behind the door to his room. When the man who had killed the rest of his family entered his room, the boy stepped out and killed him with one shot to the back of the head.
Mindset? Check.
Tactics? Superb.
Skill? Adequate for the situation.
Gear? Not what anyone would choose, but with the other three elements in place, it did the job.
You’re on your own for mindset. You can learn skill and tactics, and there are tons of good threads here about how to do that. I’d get introductory training from a reputable source (before too many half-assed knuckleheads hang out their shingles as "Certified Illinois Firearms Trainers" or whatever else the law demands) and practice what you learned, then bone up on Illinois law once it’s passed.
The hard part about gear is that you have to make up your mind for yourself based on your own experience. That means dropping a lot of cash on guns and ammo before you arrive at the answer, but that's the only road to mastery. Probably the best way to start down that road is to pick a load from here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887 and heed the advice about guns that it includes. Upgrade your pistol as needed and get a good holster—you can find threads on both of these topics easily--and remember that you've only handled the least important aspect of this issue. To handle the others, you have to train more and practice what you learned then follow that up with specific training in pertinent areas, then practice that, then repeat the training/practice cycle for the rest of your life.
That’s the universal take on defensive use of firearms. The specifics of doing it in Illinois will remain unknown until the law is passed and we see what it allows and how it goes about doing that.
Many forum members have been through the journey that you’re just starting. They’ve taken a lot of wrong turns and come up with the approaches that you see here. It’s a lot easier to get the right answer from them when you ask specific questions with enough detail for them to provide solid answers. For example, here’s my first post on M4Carbine: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=68108
Most posters here won't even read a “what if” thread because it’s too easy to misconstrue advice given out of context, and then the thread turns into a food fight. It’s better to ask about a real situation with specific details and see where the answers lead, as shown here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=123174
Hope this helps.
Okie John
I like the way you phrased that.
I feel the same, while there may not be a named "CCW subform" here to click on, many factors of carrying can be extrapolated from other sections of the forum (gear, training, handgun, etc.). Don't be lazy, answers are here, you just need to seek them out.
I for one am happy it's not all in one place, if I have to search a bit I likely come across something beneficial I wouldn't have otherwise found.
I'm a member of many forums across the web, most of them firearm related and there are CCW discussions on all of them. For information and discussions specific to your own state it is good to check out your own state's specific forum (if your state has one). For me as an Ohio resident it is OFCC and am fortunate since this is a very active forum. Being that I live in Cincinnati I also check out INGO but have not found one that is Kentucky specific. If anyone knows of one please advise. I am also a member of Defensivecarry and USCCA forums.
At least for my state, I've found the signal to noise ratio too painful on regional forums. Defensive Carry has a lot of people from each state, so typically you get enough state specific feedback.
As previously pointed out, there does seem to be an influx of new people which does drive the signal to noise ratio in the wrong direction, but FWIW, I see the same trend on M4C.
The reality is, you need to take everything on the Internet with a grain of salt, apply the BS detectors, listen, then use your *own* brain.
-john
I'm a member on defensive carry as well. It's a decent forum it it's just filled with new people often sharing bad info. The senior members are good about fixing it, but it still happens, a lot.
Glad that never happens here!
Warp posted this referring to the fact that the general discussion forum is available.
With a 200 post minimum before you can use it, and members are strongly discouraged to not "post whore" in order to be allowed to post there. A policy I still don't understand...just seems to be ASKING for trouble, and ASKING for people to post uselessly in the technical areas.
I agree. I've been reading this forum off and on for several years now. I've learned a lot by reading and listening. I also try not to act like an expert in the technical forums because I know I'm not. But, I would like to be able to post in the general discussion. More of the topics there are on subjects I think I can contribute on.
So far, I think I'm up to 29 posts. At that rate I'll be able to post in GD in about 8 more years. Should I post useless information or pretend to know answers just to get my post count up?
I understand not wanting to allow just anybody to clutter up the general discussion. But, the current rules seem a bit restrictive. Maybe 200 posts OR a member for a year or two. Somebody who isn't up to 200 posts after that time probably isn't going to clutter up the GD. There is probably more clutter from members trying to get to 200 posts than there would be from allowing them in.
Warp posted this referring to the fact that the general discussion forum is available.
I agree. I've been reading this forum off and on for several years now. I've learned a lot by reading and listening. I also try not to act like an expert in the technical forums because I know I'm not. But, I would like to be able to post in the general discussion. More of the topics there are on subjects I think I can contribute on.
So far, I think I'm up to 29 posts. At that rate I'll be able to post in GD in about 8 more years. Should I post useless information or pretend to know answers just to get my post count up?
I understand not wanting to allow just anybody to clutter up the general discussion. But, the current rules seem a bit restrictive. Maybe 200 posts OR a member for a year or two. Somebody who isn't up to 200 posts after that time probably isn't going to clutter up the GD. There is probably more clutter from members trying to get to 200 posts than there would be from allowing them in.
I think the reasoning behind the post count being 200 to participate in the GD section is because of the fact that people in that sub forum can get pretty heated and I read some ban worthy posts in there. They do not want people creating new accounts to join back in the conversation they were perm/temp banned over right away.
Just my thoughts. Correct me if I am wrong.
Could be. But doesn't change the fact that those of us that don't post often will take years to reach 200 posts. Unlike Timbo, I should be GTG by 2015! ;-)
On the other hand, I guess I could get to 200 pretty quick by telling everyone to use the search button. :-p
-john
Could be. But doesn't change the fact that those of us that don't post often will take years to reach 200 posts. Unlike Timbo, I should be GTG by 2015! ;-)
On the other hand, I guess I could get to 200 pretty quick by telling everyone to use the search button. :-p
-john
I agree & brought that up in another thread & it got locked... :rolleyes:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=123106
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The_Watcher
02-23-13, 07:49
I am a member of a forum that has a "reputation" system like that. It has it's ups and down. Obvious R-tards end up red (as in negative reputation, whereas positive reputation is green and your number goes up and up as you get positive reputation given to you) more often than not, but not always.
But it can turn into a popularity contest, and then people enter into agreements with other people for the sole purpose of raising one another's reputation, threads pop up where the only thing you do is rep other people who post in that thread, etc. It's an okay system, I don't mind it (probably because my reputation is very high), but it has a lot of problems and creates more work for the mods. On this forum mods get more "power", or at least more influence, though, as their "rep power" is astronomical compared to normal users and a "rep" or "neg" (giving negative reptuation = neg) carries a lot more weight when it's from a mod. Get a mod who doesn't like you for some person vendetta neg you when you are relatively new and you might never turn "green" again.
Sounds a bit too dramatic for my tastes.
I agree & brought that up in another thread & it got locked... :rolleyes:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=123106
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That thread was locked because the OP's question was answered.
C4
Salamander
02-27-13, 00:29
My approach is to use this forum for technical and training information relevant to ccw, and to supplement it with a couple of forums specific to my state. The latter are primarily of use for staying up on the latest legislative tracking or for interpretation of arcane state regs, something that would be challenging at best for a national site to attempt for all 50 states. My California sources would of course be of little use to someone in Illinois, hopefully someone is filling the niche there given the recent court decision.
While some state forums are sometimes a little more diplomatic, I'd say the level of expertise is much higher here on issues relating directly to equipment or training.
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