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variablebinary
03-10-08, 17:14
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/03/Army_no416s_031008w/

The Army has stripped the Asymmetric Warfare Group of its weapon of choice — the Heckler & Koch 416 — saying that its mission requires the unique outfit to carry the standard issue M4 carbine.

The decision reverses a policy that allowed the AWG to buy 416s instead of carrying M4s when it was established three years ago to help senior Army leaders find new tactics and technologies to make soldiers more lethal in combat.

Members of the AWG have declined to comment on the issue, but sources in the community told Army Times that the unit fought to keep its several hundred 416s, arguing that they outperform the Army’s M4 and require far less maintenance.

In a response to a March 6 Army Times query, the Army acknowledged initial approval of the AWG’s move to the 416.

“The AWG is empowered to procure, on a limited basis, select non-standard equipment to assist in identifying capability gaps and advise on the development of future requirements. To this end, the Asymmetric Warfare Group did purchase H&K 416 rifles,” said Army spokesman Lt. Col. Martin Downie.

“The AWG also advises units on training, tactics and procedures. In this capacity, the use of the standard issue M4 is required. In support of this mission set, the decision was made to transition to the M4 and the AWG is now turning in its H&K rifles.”

This is the latest round of controversy surrounding the M4 since late November, when the weapon finished last in an Army reliability test against several other carbines.

The M4 suffered more stoppages than the combined number of jams by the three other competitors — the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA’s Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) and the H&K 416.

Army weapons officials agreed to perform the dust test at the request of Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., in July. Coburn took up the issue following a Feb. 26 Army Times report on moves by elite Army Special Forces units to ditch the M4 in favor of carbines they consider more reliable. Since then, Coburn has questioned the Army’s plans to spend more than $300 million to purchase M4s through fiscal 2009 rather than considering newer and possibly better weapons available on the commercial market.

Army officials have downplayed the test results, maintaining that soldiers using the M4 in combat praised the weapon in a recent study by the Center for Naval Analysis.

But this isn’t the first time the M4’s performance has come under fire.

U.S. Special Operations Command decided nearly four years ago that it wanted a better weapon than the M4. After a competition, it awarded a developmental contract to FN Herstal to develop its new SCAR to replace all of the command’s M4s.

But even prior to USSOCOM’s decision, the Army’s Delta Force replaced its M4s with the H&K 416 in 2004 after tests revealed that its piston operating system reduces malfunctions while increasing the life of parts.

The M4, like its predecessor, the M16, uses a gas tube system, which relies on the gas created when a bullet is fired to cycle the weapon. Weapon experts say the M4’s system of blowing gas directly into the receiver of the weapon spews carbon residue that can lead to fouling and heat that dries up lubrication and causes excessive wear on parts.

The AWG followed Delta’s example when it stood up in March 2005 to advise the Army’s senior leadership on how to identify and counter emerging threats on the battlefield. With Army approval, the unit bought several hundred 416s for its members to carry when they deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan and other hot spots.

Many senior sergeants in the AWG were angered that soldiers in the unit had to turn in their 416s, a process that began last fall, said a U.S. Military officer with knowledge the special operations and AWG communities.

“They were outraged,” he told Army Times. “It’s a reduction in capability. It’s a waste of money that was already spent, and it makes the job more difficult since [the M4] is much more maintenance-intensive.”

RogerinTPA
03-10-08, 20:21
The Asymmetric Warfare Group is not considered a US Army Special Forces Unit or part of any US Army SOF component or USSOCOM component. There mandate is to craft doctrine and provide training in AW. There purpose can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_Warfare_Group

abnartyguy
03-10-08, 20:29
Gee, no, Big Army stripping the HK? no, your kidding, lol. The sad fact of the matter is Big Army does not want to spend any more money on anything, not when they have an agreement with Colt not to raise their prices. Hate to say it, but i am sure the price of a brand new M4 is about half the price of a brand new 416, and lord knows no one is going to spend twice the amount of $ when they can spend it on something cooler? later!
-Zef M.:cool:


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

M4Guru
03-10-08, 21:39
The money for the 416s was already spent, though. They didn't save any by dumping them for the M4.

Don Robison
03-10-08, 21:50
If they didn't want them to have them for whatever reason I can see replacing them through attrition but just replacing them seems like someone had a point they wanted to make.
Beats me what that point would be though:confused:

pryde
03-10-08, 23:55
If they didn't want them to have them for whatever reason I can see replacing them through attrition but just replacing them seems like someone had a point they wanted to make.
Beats me what that point would be though:confused:

Here is the point:

The AWG wanted and got 416s because they are better than the M4s, plain and simple. The problem this presents to the Big Army is that Johnny PFC hears about this and thinks "WTF how come they have better gear than me? Why am I stuck with crappy M4?" When all of the PFCs start thinking this, then the Army is pressured to upgrade ALL of the M4s to 416s because the PFCs will complain to the press and the liberals will start making more stories that our troops are underequipped.

So rather than go through that whole hassle, the Army chooses to say "The M4 is better" so we are taking away the 416s, and the whole above scenario goes away. Problem solved.

DocGKR
03-11-08, 00:52
Good answer Pryde.

This is pure political posturing by the out of touch Big Army senior leadership and an appalling waste of taxpayer resources that may end up costing lives.

The only way AWG got HK416’s and G19’s was with the permission and signature of Vice Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army, General Richard A. Cody...Now he has bent over COL Robert Shaw and the AWG troops and sodomized them in an effort to protect the Army's sacred M4 in the face of SEN Coburn's quite reasonable questions...

I want to puke!

variablebinary
03-11-08, 00:56
The 416 was never intended to be the end all be all solution. It was a stopgap measure at best and the fact that it was withdrawn doesnt shock me at all.

KevinB
03-11-08, 09:33
Good answer Pryde.

This is pure political posturing by the out of touch Big Army senior leadership and an appalling waste of taxpayer resources that may end up costing lives.

The only way AWG got HK416’s and G19’s was with the permission and signature of Vice Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army, General Richard A. Cody...Now he has bent over COL Robert Shaw and the AWG troops and sodomized them in an effort to protect the Army's sacred M4 in the face of SEN Coburn's quite reasonable questions...

I want to puke!



Doc,

Agreed 100%

I thought the justification was "safety certification" :rolleyes: the same reason for the Hk21, G19 etc removal. while they kept the 1911's (hard to claim the old warhorse was not certifed for BigArmy use)

If I where a certain Senator -- I would grab a few E-8's and a E-9 from AWG and ask them a few questions about the M4 and Hk416...


variablebinary -- the Hk416 was removed from the AWG -- not USSOC -- as such it is still a very common weapon system from units that can get away with using it. It may be interim -- but replacing it with a M4 does not make any sence whatsoever

M4Guru
03-11-08, 09:49
The 416 was never intended to be the end all be all solution. It was a stopgap measure at best and the fact that it was withdrawn doesnt shock me at all.

It wasn't designed to be a stopgap for AWG. That was their primary weapon, they bought it for a reason, and they got screwed by a bunch of geriatric clowns who wasted millions of tax dollars to keep Colt happy.

ThirdWatcher
03-11-08, 10:00
I don't have a dog in this fight, but what pryde says rings true.:)

Redmanfms
03-11-08, 10:15
The M4 is starting to look more and more like the American version of the L85.

KevinB
03-11-08, 10:38
I cannot agree with that comparrison

The M4A1 is a very capable weapon system -- and for the majority of troops it is the 99.9% solution. Of course BigArmy issues the M4 with the shitty burst mech - but that is easily solved.
The 1% of the 1% are the people that will be able to take full advantage of a piston system gun.
As much as I am a KAC fanatic - the HK rail is a nice setup (note: I would have made it a two piece for a different GL mount). The whole system is a more user forgiving item.

While not a AWG member I understand their training packages for BigArmy would not be affected by use of the M4A1 or Hk416 - as the platforms are very similar and the differences not affecting the training type -- AWG's other missions are where they can utilize the advanatage of the Hk416 system.

That said I think sticking AWG under the bus for M4 politics is disgraceful and those who have done so should take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror.

Combat_Diver
03-11-08, 10:45
As stated KevinB just stated the M4 does work, we're not over here in large offensive battles but small skirmishes. However their mission is to find solutions to problems. I guess you can only suggest to higher but not act on it.

CD

M4Guru
03-11-08, 11:12
The M4 is not a good gun...it's a GREAT gun. Improvements can and have been made, and to toss those advances to appease people at the dullest end of the spear is utter BS.

You can't call it a stop gap if the permanent measure implemented is not as good as the stop gap. That would be like adopting the M16 over the M14 until more M1903s could be made.

SHIVAN
03-11-08, 11:31
Maybe these groups should go back to their "limited and approved photography only" rules?

There was a lot of speculation, but once the photos started hitting with 416's in action, in Iraq, the cat was out of the bag...

hp35
03-12-08, 23:19
I'm thinking now of hundreds of hk 416's no longer being used by the military and looking for a good home. Perhaps the CMP could find some good homes for them?

KevinB
03-13-08, 01:12
I'm thinking if they leave at all it will be via DRMO...

ST911
03-13-08, 09:18
I'm thinking if they leave at all it will be via DRMO...

I suspect they'll never leave the armory of those that need them, much less the DRMS system.

G21NE
03-13-08, 17:04
I'm thinking now of hundreds of hk 416's no longer being used by the military and looking for a good home. Perhaps the CMP could find some good homes for them?

Nope. Once a machine gun, always a machine gun. Same reason the CMP can't sell M14s. That, and they don't have any.

I think the law/charter/whatever it was that created the CMP also would have to be re-written. Good luck with that.

KevinB
03-14-08, 07:57
I suspect they'll never leave the armory of those that need them, much less the DRMS system.


Yup...


This was announced several months ago -- and has taken this long to do in a small unit...