View Full Version : A shoot out is currently happening between the rouge Ex-LA Cop Dorner and Police.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 15:46
A shoot out is currently happening between the rouge Ex-LA Cop Dorner and police in CA.
This was a news break on TV just a few minutes ago.
More info as it becomes available.
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/02/12/authorities-responding-to-big-bear-home-on-report-of-hostage-situation-unknown-if-connected-to-dorner/
Two officers have reportedly been shot while pursuing a carjacking and home-invasion suspect in the Angelus Oaks area of Big Bear.
A law enforcement source confirms to the Associated Press that the assailant is triple-murder suspect Christopher Dorner.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 15:50
Live coverage,
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=8990289
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 15:53
Appears he is pinned down inside a house but swat is holding outside on the road. Also more police is reported to be wounded but not confirmed.
Looks to be about 25 responding units lined up so far.
C'mon where is Barry and his god damn drones? WTF?
O.K. coral time for him !
C'mon where is Barry and his god damn drones? WTF?
seriously! arent there bunch of Reapers at Nellis? Im waitning to see the house go up in flames on CNN.
Honestly, after following this fustercluck, the only thing bigger than his stature is his ego.
So he barricaded himself in? Well it's over for him just a matter of time now.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 16:21
I guess it depends if there are any hostages inside those houses.
I believe its time to get a well trained marksman in those woods.....for one well placed shot.
Voodoochild
02-12-13, 16:25
He won't make it out alive if he hasn't already sucked the wring end of his gun. If cops were smart they cut off power to the house and wait him out. I am sure it will get awfully cold up there at might and don't want him watching TV seeing the cops every move thanks to CNN.
Well I would assume he don't have the Barrett .50 or those vehicles would be F'ed up.
Voodoochild
02-12-13, 16:31
Lol at him having a 50 typical media hype. Considering Barrett won't sell 50's in CA he wouldn't be able to get a hold of one.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 16:31
Well the FAA just set up a no fly zone around the area so we may not seen what happens next.
Failure2Stop
02-12-13, 16:31
Good luck to the good guys.
Lol at him having a 50 typical media hype. Considering Barrett won't sell 50's in CA he wouldn't be able to get a hold of one.
He is the one that stated he had a Barrett .50 in his manifesto
Lol at him having a 50 typical media hype. Considering Barrett won't sell 50's in CA he wouldn't be able to get a hold of one.
He owns a house here in Las Vegas, a mile away from me, and wouldn't have a problem purchasing one here.
Voodoochild
02-12-13, 16:39
Good to know Irish I will contact MSNBC so they can show up at your doorstep and interview you. I will tell them you want the madcow chick personally.
love the live tv shot of cops pointing their guns at a small child in the back of a mini-van... yeah... he's about 3' tall, white and 50lbs but he looks so much like 260lbs 6' some-odd tall black guy.
asses...
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 16:40
Sloppy moves on Dorners part allowing a elderly hostage to escape and notify police as they had no clue were here was hiding at the time.
Now he has his soap box and I'M sure CNN or another news agency will be getting a call from him.
But it goes to show what a determined armed person can do with immediate violence as he got the drop on a group of officers and was able to wound two while getting to cover.
threeheadeddog
02-12-13, 16:41
Ok, I hope this doesnt spiral the thread but I am watching the police open the doors and check every vehicle on the road. I thought that unless something could be seen plainly than a search couldn't take place?
love the live tv shot of cops pointing their guns at a small child in the back of a mini-van... yeah... he's about 3' tall, white and 50lbs but he looks so much like 260lbs 6' some-odd tall black guy.
asses...
Every vehicle they've opened the back of, like SUV, mini-vans, etc., they've been pointing weapons in. Their backstop in between them and the driver/passengers are car seats.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=8990289
He won't make it out alive if he hasn't already sucked the wring end of his gun.
We would be lucky to see it end that easy. From the way he has acted so far, and what he wrote in his manifesto, he doesn't seem like the type of guy to put a gun in his mouth. Unfortunately for those already shot, and those who will have to go in, it looks like he's gonna fight to the end and try take as many with him as possible.
I hope they nail his ass soon. I'm not one for drones in the US, but a 500lb JDAM on top of his cabin would end things pretty quickly...
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 16:45
So much for the news honoring a no live shot order as they are now showing the armored vehicle with carrier ramps pulling up to the scene.
Every vehicle they've opened the back of, like SUV, mini-vans, etc., they've been pointing weapons in. Their backstop in between them and the driver/passengers are car seats.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=8990289
I wont even pretend to know LAPD SOP, and I can understand these guys are on edge, but its just seems like horrible discipline to me.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 17:01
The news is claiming "Hundreds of Rounds Fired" so far but I would suggest if Dorner was not hit in this claimed exchange of gun fire he is a lucky SOB.
As to the vehicle searches Exigent Circumstances allow the warrartless search of vehicles and trucks to contain a area were a active shooter is operating. With Dorners past history of shoot on sight with police guns draw is a reasonable officer safety approach when conducting these vehicle searches.
One reporter stated the initial firefight was started when a Game Warden spotted him in white truck?? While not confirmed, I am not surprised...that branch of le always seems to be on point.
In my neck of the woods anyway.
Man I hate to hear he shot more good guys. Cannot wait for the movie.
He is the one that stated he had a Barrett .50 in his manifesto
dont forget about that SA-7.....
threeheadeddog
02-12-13, 17:18
The news is claiming "Hundreds of Rounds Fired" so far but I would suggest if Dorner was not hit in this claimed exchange of gun fire he is a lucky SOB.
As to the vehicle searches Exigent Circumstances allow the warrartless search of vehicles and trucks to contain a area were a active shooter is operating. With Dorners past history of shoot on sight with police guns draw is a reasonable officer safety approach when conducting these vehicle searches.
Oh I fully understand them searching with guns drawn(not that I perticularly like it) I was just curious as to when the 4th amendment seem to no longer apply. FWIW as much as a hardass as I am, I would likely willfully consent to a search without a warrent under theese cirsumstances. My question was not to the manner they were searching, just the limits of the 4th amen.
Gotta love the dipshit media and their questions.
1. How many men do you have up there?
2. How do you plan to employ them?
3. When do you think you might go in?
4. Can Geraldo give us a map of the staging area and assault plan?
That the police would be REQUIRED to ask media helicopters to not shoot live footage of their officers in the area is just ****ing sad.
threeheadeddog
02-12-13, 17:24
One reporter stated the initial firefight was started when a Game Warden spotted him in white truck?? While not confirmed, I am not surprised...that branch of le always seems to be on point.
In my neck of the woods anyway.
Man I hate to hear he shot more good guys. Cannot wait for the movie.
It seems that, in my experience, interactions with game wardens seem to be the best balance of officer safty and civilian safty. I would imagine that no other LE service is so commonly involved/interacting with civilians lawfully bearing arms. That leads them to understand that civilians with guns are both quite capable and not necessarly a threat, but also that everyone is a POSSIBLE threat. They have always been both polite and cautious in my experience(when there wasnt an obvious violation though I only know about those stories from others).
Quote:
Here is what Follett wrote. I think it is accurate:
“I just called Tom Spiegel and he talked to Rick Heltebrake…Rick was driving down Glass rd and the perp jumped out of the woods pointed a gun at Rick and said give me your truck and get out of here I don’t what to hurt you….Rick said can I get my dog?..the guy said yes..then Rick said can I get the leash…So Donner has Rick’s Silver truck with a camper on it. per Chuck Huellet.”
http://blog.pe.com/bob-pratte/2013/0...tealing-truck/
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 17:31
Looks like some Homeland Security Comm trucks heading up the mountain, I guess some government folks want a live secure view of whats happening up there.
JBecker 72
02-12-13, 17:33
Gotta love the dipshit media and their questions.
1. How many men do you have up there?
2. How do you plan to employ them?
3. When do you think you might go in?
4. Can Geraldo give us a map of the staging area and assault plan?
That the police would be REQUIRED to ask media helicopters to not shoot live footage of their officers in the area is just ****ing sad.
Seriously. We let our enemies know what we are doing before we do it via MSM. :rolleyes:
It seems that, in my experience, interactions with game wardens seem to be the best balance of officer safty and civilian safty. I would imagine that no other LE service is so commonly involved/interacting with civilians lawfully bearing arms. That leads them to understand that civilians with guns are both quite capable and not necessarly a threat, but also that everyone is a POSSIBLE threat. They have always been both polite and cautious in my experience(when there wasnt an obvious violation though I only know about those stories from others).
I am friends with several state and the Fed GW is an old HS compadre...living along the border, they seem to be more involved with human & drug issues, than with actual game violations.
I called a state friend out to the ranch I hunt when a hand thought he saw a poacher...ended up catching the guy with over 40lbs of Peyote after a 4 hour tracking job in and out of the high fenced property. Most of those fellas have a nose on them for bad guys & is a very intersting line of work.
It will be interesting to see if this is indeed true and if the GW was one of the le that was injured. Praying this final chapter ends soon...creepy situation with no shots fired since 12:30??
JBecker 72
02-12-13, 17:36
Yeah I have always found fish and game wardens to be very professional. Ran across many here in VA as well as CA and never had a problem, though I wasn't breaking the law. Actually seems like it would be a cool job in LE.
Looks like some Homeland Security Comm trucks heading up the mountain, I guess some government folks want a live secure view of whats happening up there.
One newscaster just said the house he is in is right near the LE command post.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 17:46
One of the wounded officers has passed, prays for his family and all those at the scene.
Have they actually verified that its him??
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 17:49
The smoke bombs are being thrown by Dorner and sporadic shots being fired.
I wish they could just drop a 1000 pounder on the house.
Un****ingbelievable.
In the process of announcing that one of the officers is now confirmed dead CNN shows live footage of officers in the cabin area.
Douchebags.
Just because they are reporting the cabin has no internet or TV doesn't mean he doesn't have a ****ing iphone.
Moose-Knuckle
02-12-13, 17:50
LA local news is reporting one San Bernardino deputy has died.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 17:51
Have they actually verified that its him??
Per police reports it is, I think they also have dash cam footage too.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 17:56
I love how CNN is now talking about Dorners tactics and how effective they are against police.
****ing Scum Bags!
threeheadeddog
02-12-13, 17:56
I am friends with several state and the Fed GW is an old HS compadre...living along the border, they seem to be more involved with human & drug issues, than with actual game violations.
I called a state friend out to the ranch I hunt when a hand thought he saw a poacher...ended up catching the guy with over 40lbs of Peyote after a 4 hour tracking job in and out of the high fenced property. Most of those fellas have a nose on them for bad guys & is a very intersting line of work.
It will be interesting to see if this is indeed true and if the GW was one of the le that was injured. Praying this final chapter ends soon...creepy situation with no shots fired since 12:30??
I am from MT. Likely nothing like the border work that happens in your area.
Have they actually verified that its him??
Has it been confirmed that Dorner shot the deceased officer?
I love how CNN is now talking about Dorners tactics and how effective they are against police.
****ing Scum Bags!
Well you know how all that SWAT training simply can't stack up against this kind of experience.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner#Background
Dorner joined the Los Angeles Police Department in 2005, and completed police academy training in 2006. He was deployed as a reservist to Bahrain for 13 months shortly afterward, and on his return was paired with Sergeant Theresa Evans to complete his probationary training. Evans reported Dorner began weeping in the patrol car and said he wanted to go back to the police academy for retraining.
Evans gave him an unsatisfactory rating and requested that he be removed from the field until he showed improvement. The next day Dorner retaliated against the sergeant by falsely reporting Evans kicked a mentally ill suspect during an arrest several days earlier.[4] Three hotel employees who witnessed the incident were interviewed by detectives from the LAPD's internal affairs bureau and said they did not see the training officer kick the man. The investigator's report said: "The delay in reporting the alleged misconduct coupled with the witness’ statements irreparably destroy Dorner’s credibility, and bring into question his suitability for continued employment as a police officer."[5] Dorner was dismissed in 2008 for "making false statements about his training officer".
Dorner was known as a "hot head" on the force and had a history of complaints against other officers
thopkins22
02-12-13, 18:09
He's here. http://7oaksmtncabins.com
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=7+oaks+mountain+cabins&fb=1&gl=us&hq=7+oaks+mountain+cabins&cid=0,0,14259345145289065511&ei=NdkaUeDACOmI2gWvx4HQDg&ved=0CK8BEPwSMAA Looks like the pin is a maybe 50 or 100 yards east of the actual cabins.
NBCLA is interviewing a neighbor who said, "No I'm not really afraid of him, he's going after the cops." "Sort of funny that he praised Obama, Feinstein, and all the gun grabbers." He also made another statement that I don't exactly remember about this guy doesn't sound like a warrior if he wants to take all the guns. You can tell that the liberal reporter was taken aback.
One of the wounded officers has passed, prays for his family and all those at the scene.
Damn it.
Looks like the cabin is on fire now... I wonder if that will flush him out
thopkins22
02-12-13, 18:21
Looks like the cabin is on fire now... I wonder if that will flush him out
Do you have a view of it? The news has been recycling footage from earlier since they can't get in close enough to get live shots anymore.
Appeared to be smoke grenades as far as I could see and not a structure fire.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 18:22
From Fox News they claimed the police chased Dorner into the cabin when he turned and shot at police wounding one, then Dorner exited the rear door and shot another officer who ran around to cover the rear.
Update that the cabin that Dorner is in is fully engulfed in flames.
montanadave
02-12-13, 18:24
So no corpsicle. More like a human s'more.
Either way works fine for me as long as Dorner is alone in there.
Fox reporting single shot inside cabin, then fire, and now sounds of rounds cooking off. POS probably set a fire and capped himself.
Ya I can see smoke on the video they are showing. Totally on fire. Supposedly another big exchange of gun fire...
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 18:25
Fox News claims that a single shot was heard inside the cabin just as the fire started and now that the cabin is a fireball with ammo exploding inside.
thopkins22
02-12-13, 18:27
Yep...I went to FOX News, and surprise suprise, far superior coverage.
I take it back...wonder if he set it intentionally or ****ed up with a smoke grenade.
Here's hoping there were in fact no hostages inside.
One officer passed in surgery. So senseless..
Edit: Well maybe not, another foxnews rushing out the story before getting the facts.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 18:29
So Dorner may have taken the "PUSSY" way out after all the big talk it appears.
Hope be burns in a special place in hell for his actions.
So Dorner took the "PUSSY" way out after all the big talk it appears.
Hope be burns in a special place in hell for his actions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDSOIspSTP4 :cool:
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 18:47
Wow,
Now CNN is reporting that Dorner may have escaped the cabin and maybe in the woods nearby.
Un "F"ing believable.
Its almost like a bad joke or something.
holy shnikes! CNN said that there were two perimeters incase he tried to escape!
Sounds like the other officer is excepted to survive surgery.
Fire is possibly being blamed on tear gas device.
He was a scumbag, serial killer POS but if I had a choice between a self inflicted round or dying by fire I guess I'd have to be a pussy too. Honestly the pussy move would have been to have surrendered and gone to trial and then lived for years until finally sentenced.
Sounds like the other officer is excepted to survive surgery.
Fire is possibly being blamed on tear gas device.
He was a scumbag, serial killer POS but if I had a choice between a self inflicted round or dying by fire I guess I'd have to be a pussy too. Honestly the pussy move would have been to have surrendered and gone to trial and then lived for years until finally sentenced.
Fox said he supposedly bought some "scuba" tanks and that they think there were propane tanks too!
TurretGunner
02-12-13, 18:52
Sounds like the other officer is excepted to survive surgery.
Fire is possibly being blamed on tear gas device.
He was a scumbag, serial killer POS but if I had a choice between a self inflicted round or dying by fire I guess I'd have to be a pussy too. Honestly the pussy move would have been to have surrendered and gone to trial and then lived for years until finally sentenced.
Sounds like Waco.....
I doubt he would burn himself alive. He either ate a bullet or was knocked out .... There is no way he is running out of that cabin alive with the perimiter they set up.
madisonsfinest
02-12-13, 18:57
These media questions piss me off.
Voodoochild
02-12-13, 19:24
That's what the media does best ask stupid questions and be annoying. I hope the people that got away and called 911 get the reward money.
holy shnikes! CNN said that there were two perimeters incase he tried to escape!
Pretty standard military SOP - outer and inner cordons.
I would encourage you all to go read his "manifesto"
I realize it is uncomfortable reading but there were a few things I took away from it:
(1) (The no shit section) This was a disturbed individual. When a fellow officer said the word "nigger" he responded by choking the officer (sorry to quote "I placed my hands around his neck and applied pressure"). Apparently also had a ND in the same case and stated he should have shot the officer in the head. Also multiple infractions for same childhood taunts. Principal told him to knock it off and he went and beat kids up anyway because "Hey they are racist"
(2)Influences: His "thanks" includes an extended list of pop-culture references and acknowledgements. Not a single thinker/doer among them. We truly have become a pop-culture driven society.
(3)Its a left-wing bat-nut diatribe against anyone and anything conservative--the rants about Bush (43), Romney, praise for Joe Biden, Feinstein. He actually admires C. Christie but recites song and verse about convervative republicans. It makes me shudder to think what MSNBC (in this case) has done to program individuals for pure hate.
If they hurry up and drag his toasted ass out, then Obama can take credit for his capture tonight.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 19:29
Every news station is yapping something different so I think I'll wait until the police fish through the rubble looking for bones.
Hopefully there is nothing left to bury.
Every news station is yapping something different so I think I'll wait until the police fish through the rubble looking for bones.
Hopefully there is nothing left to bury.
Who cares, he already bought the plot and stone. Be a good place to take a piss on extended patrols.
This is where he was holed up... main "office" house. Hopefully no one else was inside...
http://7oaksmtncabins.com/
Oh I fully understand them searching with guns drawn(not that I perticularly like it) I was just curious as to when the 4th amendment seem to no longer apply. FWIW as much as a hardass as I am, I would likely willfully consent to a search without a warrent under theese cirsumstances. My question was not to the manner they were searching, just the limits of the 4th amen.
There is a warrant exception, public safety.
ThirdWatcher
02-12-13, 20:53
I would encourage you all to go read his "manifesto"...
His rambling manifesto made me wonder how he ever got hired to begin with.
GeorgiaBoy
02-12-13, 21:17
Dorner is dead.
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-12-13, 21:21
His rambling manifesto made me wonder how he ever got hired to begin with.
He is a minority
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-12-13, 21:24
So Dorner may have taken the "PUSSY" way out after all the big talk it appears.
Hope be burns in a special place in hell for his actions.
I don't see it that way at all! I'm glad he did that, as much as all those men wanted some payback, who knows where his next round would have went. He has already proven quite lethal, just be glad its over and morn the fallen.
Good riddance.
Enjoy eternal torture you garbage
Dorner is dead.
Certainly hope so, but I'll wait till we have positive confirmation via DNA and dental records.
Apparently someone hollering to have the house Dorner was in torched ASAP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNk-bV40XMc
Hmmm.....
Not confirmed as 100% legit, but I think the "mysterious fire" term is usually a dead giveaway for this sort of action.
Apparently someone hollering to have the house Dorner was in torched ASAP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNk-bV40XMc
Hmmm.....
Not confirmed as 100% legit, but I think the "mysterious fire" term is usually a dead giveaway for this sort of action.
This is the one instance where I'd shoot a flare into the house myself! Ask for no quarter, none given!
This is the one instance where I'd shoot a flare into the house myself! Ask for no quarter, none given!
Yeah, this was a "good cook."
Shame about the property damage, but that's about it.
Mauser KAR98K
02-13-13, 01:18
One person's crispy critter is another's martyr. I know that BS is coming.
Hopefully he is getting his next dose of fire in Hell, and it is a few Kelvins hotter.
Remember to flush twice, it is a long way down to Dorner's next meal.
Wait a minute...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/12/christopher-dorner-ex-cop-los-angeles-mexico/1912553/
"There has been no body located inside that cabin ... the fire is still too hot," said LAPD Cmdr. Andrew Smith. "Any reports of a body being found are not true.'
ThirdWatcher
02-13-13, 03:14
He is a minority
Yeah, I know. I'm not casting stones (as I've been a street cop for over 30 years) but as long as we have to recruit from the human race, a very small percentage are going to fall through the cracks. This idiot is/was the worst I ever heard of though.:(
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 03:19
Yeah, I know. I'm not casting stones (as I've been a street cop for over 30 years) but as long as we have to recruit from the human race, a very small percentage are going to fall through the cracks. This idiot is/was the worst I ever heard of though.:(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_John_Schaefer
You might not know it but the rate of crime for LEO's is not all that different from the rest of the population.
Moose-Knuckle
02-13-13, 03:30
Apparently someone hollering to have the house Dorner was in torched ASAP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNk-bV40XMc
Hmmm.....
Not confirmed as 100% legit, but I think the "mysterious fire" term is usually a dead giveaway for this sort of action.
Saw this, not good IF he had hostages. I'm sure this will "go away" and be censored out of any official release of transmissions from the incident.
Wait a minute...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/12/christopher-dorner-ex-cop-los-angeles-mexico/1912553/
"There has been no body located inside that cabin ... the fire is still too hot," said LAPD Cmdr. Andrew Smith. "Any reports of a body being found are not true.'
Noticed this too, as I was watching the "LIVE" coverage (IIRC CNN) it was said that there was a body outside the house that was untouched by the fire. Possible dead hostage/homeowner as I believe all LE has been accounted for.
When I was in the FD we had fires out rather quickly and went in cleaned out the place etc...
Not sure why its still to hot ? Seems strange
Moose-Knuckle
02-13-13, 03:43
When I was in the FD we had fires out rather quickly and went in cleaned out the place etc...
Not sure why its still to hot ? Seems strange
I would assume that the whole area has been cordoned off with the exception of LE for at least a two mile perimeter. Due to the remoteness of the site I doubt any fire apparatuses were close by, probably held in a staging area. But until they know he is dead for sure and not in the trees waiting to ambush more firemen like that penis wrinkle in NY, I doubt they will allow any fire personnel at the scene. Well that and protecting the crime scene for evidence processing.
alienb1212
02-13-13, 06:03
I'm not sure why all you so-called libertarians are making snap judgements based on the sole fact that the media told you he did things. I think the fact that LAPD wanted him dead SO BADLY they released a ton of information to demonize him and started flinging accusations way before they could have had any proof it was him is a big giveaway.
Everyone deserves due process, even people that kill LEOs and hold hostages and kills innocent civilians. Even this guy, even if he did all the things they've said he did.
This ****ing shit is like Waco 2.0.
TurretGunner
02-13-13, 06:03
Yeah, this was a "good cook."
Shame about the property damage, but that's about it.
You either believe in due proccess or not. This is IMO, worse than killing Americans with drones outside of CONUS. This guy was a complete dirt bag, but when terrorists like the fort hood shooter get better treatment, you know something is wrong.
You have the judge, jury, and executioner here. I don't care what this guy does, you don't burn suspects alive. There was no chance of this guy getting away, just wait him out. Sooner or later hes going to have to come out. Revenge killing and out of control police offices (listen to the tapes FFS) is unacceptable in any situation. We are better than that.
alienb1212
02-13-13, 06:05
You either believe in due proccess or not. This is IMO, worse than killing Americans with drones outside of CONUS. This guy was a complete dirt bag, but when terrorists like the fort hood shooter get better treatment, you know something is wrong.
You have the judge, jury, and executioner here. I don't care what this guy does, you don't burn suspects alive. There was no chance of this guy getting away, just wait him out. Sooner or later hes going to have to come out. Revenge killing and out of control police offices (listen to the tapes FFS) is unacceptable in any situation. We are better than that.
This. Lot of total hypocrites on this board lately. Think. You can't pick and choose the parts of our Constitution you like while completely ignoring the others. That's what "They" do and you hate them for it...how are any of you different?
TurretGunner
02-13-13, 06:35
This. Lot of total hypocrites on this board lately. Think. You can't pick and choose the parts of our Constitution you like while completely ignoring the others. That's what "They" do and you hate them for it...how are any of you different?
Hey bro tone it down. People here aren't the enemy and you will get banned for much less than that.
People just don't think things through. Emotions are high and whatnot.
This is a shitty situation all the way around, and I doubt it we will ever really know all the facts. Twighlight Zone weird.
Correct information about this news event seems about as hard to find as correct news on Sandy Hook was.
I've given up on finding out whatever happened here.
This ****ing shit is like Waco 2.0.
Great, the scene not even cold and Waco comparisons already starting. Don't blame the mods when this thread gets locked.
Hey bro tone it down. People here aren't the enemy and you will get banned for much less than that.
People just don't think things through. Emotions are high and whatnot.
This is a shitty situation all the way around, and I doubt it we will ever really know all the facts. Twighlight Zone weird.
Yes, people don't think things through. For example, there are a number of people insinuating that the police intentionally set the fire without evidence to support that notion. I'd say that defines "not thinking things though."
Starting to look like they burned him alive. On purpose
Starting to look like they burned him alive. On purpose
And right above your post:
"For example, there are a number of people insinuating that the police intentionally set the fire without evidence to support that notion. I'd say that defines "not thinking things though."
YES...
The actual evidence for that is what? Can we just keep the topic to what can actually be supported at this time? Is that so much to ask? Really?
SWATcop556
02-13-13, 07:40
Ok. I'll make this caveman simple. If you do not have facts to bring to the thread regarding the incident, don't post. The tinfoil "they just wanted him dead so they burned down the world to get him" bullshit won't fly. If they used gas or any number of means to drive him out there is always the possibility of a fire. That's basic less lethal training 101. If the shit head is shooting I'm not rushing in to put out a fire. Simple. He made his bed he can lay in it.
No one executed him. He made his choice days ago. Until there is proof otherwise drop the conspiracy bullshit. Now.
SWATcop556
02-13-13, 07:40
Starting to look like they burned him alive. On purpose
Based on what?
mikelowrey
02-13-13, 07:46
These people should just make the movie I have never seen so much BS drama on this thing. Like that dude giving the description of all the things that transcribed during that time. I call that BS.
ETA: And like usual CNN has to always **** it up with the additional false BS too.
" the man believed to be Dorner fired a .50-caliber sniper rifle, shooting two deputies, killing one of them."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57569112/authorities-confident-christopher-dorner-search-over-body-will-need-to-be-idd/
.50 cal? I have the distinct feeling that's the media talking out there ass per usual. Any support for that at this time?
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 07:59
http://youtu.be/cNk-bV40XMc
http://youtu.be/SCdqybEfy9w
That fire was intentionally set.
Based on what?
Radio recordings:
http://youtu.be/24WJr4Ye8xY
http://youtu.be/cNk-bV40XMc
Radio recordings:
http://youtu.be/24WJr4Ye8xY
http://youtu.be/cNk-bV40XMc
First one, sounds like a pissed off cop (and rightly so) voicing outrage at that POS, but far from any proof there. Second one, I don't know all the lingo being used and what's being referenced and in what context its being used, but I don't think they'd talk about it on an open channel so relaxed if there was a an actual plan to light it on fire.
I'd like to here from the experienced LEOs, in particular those in tac LE, regarding the above.
Do you think they'd mind if I went out there to pick up some of the brass?
mikelowrey
02-13-13, 08:31
Do you think they'd mind if I went out there to pick up some of the brass?
:haha: too bad they might take it since its part of the investigation.
Btw we are doomed we these liberals in TV.
Second one, I don't know all the lingo being used and what's being referenced and in what context its being used, but I don't think they'd talk about it on an open channel so relaxed if there was a an actual plan to light it on fire.
I'd like to here from the experienced LEOs, in particular those in tac LE, regarding the above.
"Alright Steve, we're gonna go uh, we're gonna go forward with the plan, with uh, with the burn"
"copy"
"{unknown} uh, like we talked about" {unknown} burn is deployed and we have a fire"
"Copy burner is deployed and be have a fire"
Seems clear to me. The plan was to burn it. The plan was carried out successfully with multiple LEO involved in it's implementation. Why that was the plan, we don't yet know.
Is there another way to read that conversation? Provided that facts show the house was not on fire before the conversation and after the conversation it was on fire.
Trying to force him out of the house?
(By starting the fire)
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 08:44
"Alright Steve, we're gonna go uh, we're gonna go forward with the plan, with uh, with the burn"
"copy"
"{unknown} uh, like we talked about" {unknown} burn is deployed and we have a fire"
Seems clear to me. The plan was to burn it. the plan was carried out successfully with multiple LEO involved in it's implementation. Why that was the plan, we don't yet know.
Is there another way to read that conversation?
I was listening the scanner feed live. It was obvious it was set on fire. Anyone who tried to explain it away as anything else is being intentionally intellectually dishonest. I knew something was about to go down when they ordered the media helicopters away. Aside from giving away the police locations (obvious) I was telling my wife they're about to kill him and don't want it on video.
I knew for days there was no way they were taking him alive. From lighting up the two trucks to listening to it go down they didn't have a single intention of doing anything but killing him. It was just a few minutes before the fire was started they announced the officer had died.
madisonsfinest
02-13-13, 08:49
Police have burned structures in the past to get an active shooter out, or dead. Was deadly force justified in this case? I think the answer is obviously yes. He was actively in a firefight with the Police. He was already suspected of killing 3 people, and shooting another 3.
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 08:57
Police have burned structures in the past to get an active shooter out, or dead. Was deadly force justified in this case? I think the answer is obviously yes. He was actively in a firefight with the Police. He was already suspected of killing 3 people, and shooting another 3.
That should not be an option in America. Reeks of judge, jury, and executioner all in one. If he had come out they would have lit him up. He wasn't getting out of there alive especially after they had just one announced one of the officers he had wounded earlier had died of his wounds.
madisonsfinest
02-13-13, 09:00
The guy is actively shooting and ultimately killing people. Whats the difference in shooting him with your gun or by burning the structure? Were they justified in shooting him? He WAS SHOOTING AT THEM. I love how you seem to know they were intent on shooting him if he came out and surrendered unarmed, kind of shows your bias.
"Alright Steve, we're gonna go uh, we're gonna go forward with the plan, with uh, with the burn"
"copy"
"{unknown} uh, like we talked about" {unknown} burn is deployed and we have a fire"
"Copy burner is deployed and be have a fire"
Seems clear to me. The plan was to burn it. The plan was carried out successfully with multiple LEO involved in it's implementation. Why that was the plan, we don't yet know.
Is there another way to read that conversation? Provided that facts show the house was not on fire before the conversation and after the conversation it was on fire.
And that may be the case, may not be. If that was the decision on the ground, and is a legal option, then all good by me. The situation may have dictated that waiting him out was not an option if he was (assuming the media reports of a.50 being used are accurate, etc) firing on officers and another LEO death highly likely.
What ever the legal options were* to use deadly force, any and all of them 100% justified in this case in my view.
* = I don't know the UOFP for that PD, so can't comment there.
Well when I first saw they had him cornered I said ok, all they have to do is wait him out. Maybe even talk him out ( was any attempt made at that? ).
Then when I heard they were using tear gas I just thought ok, they are just going to burn him out.
Right, wrong, justified or not, those were the order of thoughts that went through my mind.
I suppose the only thing in my mind as to justification is the fact that he was undeniably cornered. He was trapped and surrounded by a massive police force. Maybe they made offers to him to give up, I don't know. Haven't heard any such talk. I would think his hostages could have confirmed the .50cal.(and maybe they did)
...but Belmont has a point.... it seems overall they had no intention of ever taking him alive ( nor did he ).
I will give him one thing.. as screwed up as he was.... he really never turned on any citizens that were not part of his LE oriented situation. He could have killed a lot and chose not to. Granted no one deserved to die but even when he knew he was about to die he let others go free.
montanadave
02-13-13, 09:06
Police have burned structures in the past to get an active shooter out, or dead. Was deadly force justified in this case? I think the answer is obviously yes. He was actively in a firefight with the Police. He was already suspected of killing 3 people, and shooting another 3.
Agreed. Anybody remember Patty Hearst, the SLA, and the shootout in Compton in 1974?
On May 17, Los Angeles police shot an estimated 1,200 rounds of ammunition into the tiny Compton home as six SLA members shot back. Teargas containers thrown into the hideout started a fire, but the SLA refused to surrender. Autopsy results showed that they continued to fire back even as smoke and flames were searing their lungs; they clearly chose suicide and martyrdom over jail. Randolph Hearst, Patty's father, remarked that the massive attack had turned "dingbats into martyrs." The raid left six SLA members dead, including leader Donald DeFreeze, also known as Cinque. Patty Hearst was not inside the home at the time. She was not found until September 1975.(http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lapd-raid-leaves-six-sla-members-dead)
Sometimes ya just gotta "terminate with extreme prejudice."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjB8z0Bvi14
A guy starts shooting cops, shooting their families, and, when cornered, decides to keep shooting ... well, things are probably not gonna end up with folks singing kumbaya.
They knew what they were doing. Get all news choppers out if the air so no one could see them light the house in fire. No doubt in my mind they burned the house intentionally. If anyone thinks they were above that your crazy.
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 09:13
Agreed. Anybody remember Patty Hearst, the SLA, and the shootout in Compton in 1974?
On May 17, Los Angeles police shot an estimated 1,200 rounds of ammunition into the tiny Compton home as six SLA members shot back. Teargas containers thrown into the hideout started a fire, but the SLA refused to surrender. Autopsy results showed that they continued to fire back even as smoke and flames were searing their lungs; they clearly chose suicide and martyrdom over jail. Randolph Hearst, Patty's father, remarked that the massive attack had turned "dingbats into martyrs." The raid left six SLA members dead, including leader Donald DeFreeze, also known as Cinque. Patty Hearst was not inside the home at the time. She was not found until September 1975.(http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lapd-raid-leaves-six-sla-members-dead)
Sometimes ya just gotta "terminate with extreme prejudice."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjB8z0Bvi14
A guy starts shooting cops, shooting their families, and, when cornered, decides to keep shooting ... well, things are probably not gonna end up with folks singing kumbaya.
1985 bombing
In 1981, MOVE relocated to a row house at 6221 Osage Avenue in the Cobbs Creek area of West Philadelphia. On May 13, 1985, after months of complaints by neighbors that MOVE members were broadcasting political messages by bullhorn at all hours and also about the health hazards created from piles of compost, as well as indictments of various MOVE members for crimes including parole violation, contempt of court, illegal possession of firearms, and making terrorist threats[8] The police department attempted to clear the building and arrest the indicted MOVE members, which led to an armed standoff with police.[9] The police lobbed tear gas canisters at the building and the fire department battered on the roof of the house with two water cannons. MOVE members fired at the police, and the police returned fire with semiautomatic weapons.[10] The house was heavily fortified with old telephone poles lining the interior walls and a bunker was built on the roof. A police helicopter then dropped a four-pound bomb made of C-4 plastic explosive and Tovex, a dynamite substitute, onto the roof of the house to clear the bunker so that police would not be injured.
The resulting explosion caused incendiary materials listed in the police indictment, and stored by MOVE in the house, to catch fire, therefore causing the house itself to catch on fire. The resulting fire ignited a massive blaze which eventually destroyed 65 houses nearby.[2][11][12] Eleven people, including John Africa, five other adults and five children, died in the resulting fire.[13] The firefighters were stopped from putting out the fire based on allegations that firefighters were being shot at, a claim that was contested by the lone adult survivor Ramona Africa, who says that the firefighters had earlier battered the house with two deluge pumps when there was no fire.[11] Ramona Africa and one child, Birdie Africa, were the only two survivors. Police shot at those trying to escape the house[14] and acknowledge firing over 10,000 rounds.[15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing
^^^ wow interesting. They destroyed 65 houses can you imagine the aftermath of that?
" the man believed to be Dorner fired a .50-caliber sniper rifle, shooting two deputies, killing one of them."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57569112/authorities-confident-christopher-dorner-search-over-body-will-need-to-be-idd/
.50 cal? I have the distinct feeling that's the media talking out there ass per usual. Any support for that at this time?
He said alot of things in his manifesto, but among them he did mention he owned a .50 Barrett.
Voodoo_Man
02-13-13, 09:30
^^^ wow interesting. They destroyed 65 houses can you imagine the aftermath of that?
The aftermath was horrific for everyone, some say it set back race relations in a city that was already plagued.
The most interesting thing no one mentions (didnt read the wiki) was that all LEO supervisors in charge of making decision were all former mil...not a rag just pointing it out as interesting.
montanadave
02-13-13, 09:37
Not to point out the obvious, but I see a considerable difference between lobbing tear gas canisters into an individual cabin in a remote area and dropping a bomb on a fortified row house presumed to contain all manner of munitions in a congested urban environment.
One appears to be rather SOP. The other, perhaps a tad short-sighted.
He said alot of things in his manifesto, but among them he did mention he owned a .50 Barrett.
Yes, I recall well, but unknown if the media just added that to their reporting to drum up ratings and hysteria, or he was actually using it at the cabin. But, the risk of death and injury would be considerable if on the receiving end of a .50. Even the B.E.A.R. trucks used by tac LE/SWAT are 7.62 NATO rated generally I believe.
As our enemies abroad have learned the hard way, not a lot of good places to hide from a .50.
Regardless, don't really care if it was a sling shot he was using at that point.
^^^ wow interesting. They destroyed 65 houses can you imagine the aftermath of that?
Yep, an older filth ridden neighborhood was sterilized and replaced with very poorly built city-contracted homes and quickly became a newer filth ridden neighborhood.
MOVE were animals even to their fellow blacks.
Screw that guy, I'm more upset that they burned the cabin than that he burned to death (if he did).
Shoot at cops, kill cops, kill innocents because they're related to cops?
Don't be surprised if you're gunned down like the mad dog you are.
Good burn.
I support law enforcement but WTF. Burn him out?
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 10:19
Not to point out the obvious, but I see a considerable difference between lobbing tear gas canisters into an individual cabin in a remote area and dropping a bomb on a fortified row house presumed to contain all manner of munitions in a congested urban environment.
One appears to be rather SOP. The other, perhaps a tad short-sighted.
They refer to the tear gas rounds as 'burners', and said 7 were deployed. When you refer to your munitions as 'burners'...well to me its hard to argue that cabin catching fire wasn't the plan and wasn't unintentional.
Sure it's different than dropping a bomb but so is spraying the cabin with silly string. Doesn't mean deploying 'burners' didn't have the desired effect of catching the cabin on fire.
BTW a wildfire in that area could easily be as devastating or very much more so than 65 houses in the Philly case.
Except there is snow all over and its wet which makes more than difficult for a forest fire to start.
They refer to the tear gas rounds as 'burners', and said 7 were deployed. When you refer to your munitions as 'burners'...well to me its hard to argue that cabin catching fire wasn't the plan and wasn't unintentional.
Sure it's different than dropping a bomb but so is spraying the cabin with silly string. Doesn't mean deploying 'burners' didn't have the desired effect of catching the cabin on fire.
BTW a wildfire in that area could easily be as devastating or very much more so than 65 houses in the Philly case.
They refer to the tear gas rounds as 'burners', and said 7 were deployed. When you refer to your munitions as 'burners'...well to me its hard to argue that cabin catching fire wasn't the plan and wasn't unintentional.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to change their terminology.
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 10:29
Except there is snow all over and its wet which makes more than difficult for a forest fire to start.
True but there was a chance of it happening. Been through a lot of fires in SoCal and know what they can do. Just saying it was a possibility.
As did I and I can pretty much guarantee that was considered but in the bigger scheme of things it wasn't as compelling.
True but there was a chance of it happening. Been through a lot of fires in SoCal and know what they can do. Just saying it was a possibility.
That should not be an option in America. Reeks of judge, jury, and executioner all in one. If he had come out they would have lit him up. He wasn't getting out of there alive especially after they had just one announced one of the officers he had wounded earlier had died of his wounds.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say "so what fo they used fire intentionally?". Lethal force is lethal force. There's nothing higher on the use of force contiuum for "lethal force by fire". When a guy as dangerous as this refuses to negotiate and has vowed to kill officers, and he's actively engaged in doing just that, I don't see a lot of logical choices here that mitigate the risk of additional dead officers. Dorner wanted this and he did what he needed to get it.
I will give him one thing.. as screwed up as he was.... he really never turned on any citizens that were not part of his LE oriented situation. He could have killed a lot and chose not to. Granted no one deserved to die but even when he knew he was about to die he let others go free.
I'd say whenn he killed the officer's daughter and her SO, that was targeting citizens.
montanadave
02-13-13, 11:26
From what I was hearing yesterday afternoon, the authorities had made up their minds that they had no intention of letting Dorner sit in that cabin as darkness fell. Regardless of how remote the possibility might have been, they were simply not going to take any chances with him slipping away in the dark. It was going to be over, one way or the other, before the sun went down.
And it was.
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 11:33
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say "so what fo they used fire intentionally?". Lethal force is lethal force. There's nothing higher on the use of force contiuum for "lethal force by fire". When a guy as dangerous as this refuses to negotiate and has vowed to kill officers, and he's actively engaged in doing just that, I don't see a lot of logical choices here that mitigate the risk of additional dead officers. Dorner wanted this and he did what he needed to get it.
I'd say whenn he killed the officer's daughter and her SO, that was targeting citizens.
Incendiary weapons should be not be used against people in the US, and are in fact illegal to use in war against people in this manner.
Incendiary weapons should be not be used against people in the US, and are in fact illegal to use in war against people in this manner.
All weapons of all kinds should be considered fair game in a fight, war, or otherwise. Tying the hands of anyone during a conflict is a recipe for disaster, everything's on the table all the time. It's war.
The problem that I have with the "burn him out" scenario is that with guns drawn on you outside, and them starting a fire on you inside, there is no point to giving up as they're going to kill you either way. At least that's the message it sends and this guy obviously thought that too. I bet the single shot they all heard before the rounds were cooking off was him shooting himself to end it all. Can't go outside and don't want to burn to death so....
Incendiary weapons should be not be used against people in the US, and are in fact illegal to use in war against people in this manner.
And I would almost universally agree with you. Almost...
madisonsfinest
02-13-13, 11:58
....BIG BEAR LAKE, Calif. (AP) — Police scoured mountain peaks for days, using everything from bloodhounds to high-tech helicopters in their manhunt for a revenge-seeking ex-cop. They had no idea he was hiding among them, holed up in a vacation cabin across the street from their command post.
It was there that Christopher Dorner apparently took refuge last Thursday, four days after beginning a deadly rampage that would claim four lives.
The search ended Tuesday when a man believed to be Dorner bolted from hiding, stole two cars, barricaded himself in a vacant cabin and mounted a last stand in a furious shootout in which he killed one sheriff's deputy and wounded another before the building erupted in flames.
He never emerged from the ruins and hours later a charred body was found in the basement of the burned cabin along with a wallet and personal items, including a California driver's license with the name Christopher Dorner, an official briefed on the investigation told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because of the ongoing investigation.
Authorities believe the remains are those of the former Los Angeles police officer, but they have not been formally identified.
"We have reason to believe that it is him," San Bernardino County sheriff's spokeswoman Cynthia Bachman said.
LAPD Lt. Andrew Neiman said Wednesday the department has returned to normal patrol operations. He said approximately a dozen of the more than 50 protective details remain in place and will stay that way until the remains are positively identified. "This really is not a celebration," he said. Neiman would not answer any questions regarding what occurred in San Bernardino County, saying it was that jurisdiction's investigation.
Neiman said LAPD officers used the Internet to monitor radio chatter during the firefight. "It was horrifying to listen to that firefight and to hear those words. 'Officer down' is the most gut-wrenching experience that you can have as a police officer."
Dorner, 33, had said in a lengthy rant police believe he posted on Facebook that he expected to die in one final, violent confrontation with police, and if it was him in the cabin that's just what happened.
The apparent end came very close to where his trail went cold six days earlier when his burning pickup truck — with guns and camping gear inside — was abandoned with a broken axle on a fire road in the San Bernardino National Forest near the ski resort town of Big Bear Lake.
His footprints led away from the truck and vanished on frozen soil.
With no sign of him and few leads, police offered a $1 million reward to bring him to justice and end a "reign of terror" that had more than 50 families of targeted Los Angeles police officers under round-the-clock protection after he threatened to bring "warfare" to the LAPD, officers and their kin.
Just a few hours after police announced Tuesday that they had fielded more than 1,000 tips with no sign of Dorner, word came that a man matching his description had tied up two people in a Big Bear Lake cabin, stole their car and fled. Authorities didn't immediately give more details on the two people.
Jay Hylton told KABC-TV that they were two of his relatives, a mother and daughter pair of housekeepers, who weren't hurt. The Los Angeles Times (http://lat.ms/XKkGt8 ) reported the women surprised Dorner Tuesday, he tied them up and then fled in a purple Nissan. The Times reported that one maid eventually broke free and called 911.
Game wardens from the California Department of Fish and Wildlife who were part of the search detail spotted the purple Nissan that had been reported stolen going in the opposite direction and gave chase, department spokesman Lt. Patrick Foy said. The driver looked like Dorner.
They lost the purple car after it passed a school bus and turned onto a side road, but two other Fish and Wildlife patrols turned up that road a short time later, and were searching for the car when a white pickup truck sped erratically toward the wardens.
"He took a close look at the driver and realized it was the suspect," Foy said.
Dorner, who allegedly stole the pickup truck at gunpoint after crashing the first car, rolled down a window and opened fire on the wardens, striking a warden's truck more than a dozen times.
One of the wardens shot at the suspect as he rounded a curve in the road. It's unclear if he hit him, but the stolen pickup careened off the road and crashed in a snow bank. Dorner then ran to the cabin where he barricaded himself and got in a shootout with San Bernardino County sheriff's deputies and other officers, two of whom were shot, one fatally.
A SWAT team surrounded the cabin and used an armored vehicle to break out the cabin windows, said a law enforcement official who requested anonymity because the investigation was ongoing. The officers then lobbed tear gas canisters into the cabin and blasted a message over a loudspeaker: "Surrender or come out."
The armored vehicle then tore down each of the cabin's four walls.
A single shot was heard inside before the cabin was engulfed in flames, the law enforcement official told The Associated Press.
I'd say whenn he killed the officer's daughter and her SO, that was targeting citizens.
Yes, bu they were directly tied to his LAPD problem. After them, like the guy whose truck he stole, the two women he held, he did not harm any of them.
All I'm saying is that as screwed up as he was, he at least stuck to his story so to speak.
For the time he knew or at least must have assumed he was under shoot to kill orders he never harmed a disassociated citizen.
Not justifying his other actions but those are facts. Not admiration but simply thankful. Just as his killing was contemplated so too was his not killing. He had the opportunity to easily kill at least three other people and a good chance no one would be the wiser ( at least for a while ). He actually facilitated his sooner demise by letting them live.
In contrast these other nut jobs of late will just kill anyone.
All weapons of all kinds should be considered fair game in a fight, war, or otherwise.
Way to broad a paintbrush...no way should any deadly technique or weapons available be on the table for U.S. civis.
I detest this guy like most everyone, but you have to consider the big picture and follow the U.S. constitution provided to us in regards to our rights.
period.
Way to broad a paintbrush...no way should any deadly technique or weapons available be on the table for U.S. civis.
I detest this guy like most everyone, but you have to consider the big picture and follow the U.S. constitution provided to us in regards to our rights.
period.
My comments about weaponry was separate from happened to this perp. I was expressing that in war, or any conflict when someone is fighting for their life - there is no weapon too dangerous or cruel to be used. Guns, knives, hollowpoints, missiles, carpet bombing, nukes, chem/bio, cyber, or a sharpened stick. When everything is on the line, everything is on the table.
If you are saying that the US government doesn't and shouldn't have the power to kill a citizen, then I've heard that argument before, and frankly it holds no water with me. Some people can't be reasoned with, or rehabilitated, and the only way they will ever be of use to society is as fertilizer. That being said, I would have liked for him to be captured instead of killed, I would have liked to hear his side of the story relating to the allegations he made with the LAPD, and I would have like to see him get his due process appropriately before he was executed by lethal injection or gas (California).
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 14:04
My comments about weaponry was separate from happened to this perp. I was expressing that in war, or any conflict when someone is fighting for their life - there is no weapon too dangerous or cruel to be used. Guns, knives, hollowpoints, missiles, carpet bombing, nukes, chem/bio, cyber, or a sharpened stick. When everything is on the line, everything is on the table.
I agree with all, except that. That's a shitload of money to kill ONE guy, and possibly score some collateral damage.
I would assume that the whole area has been cordoned off with the exception of LE for at least a two mile perimeter. Due to the remoteness of the site I doubt any fire apparatuses were close by, probably held in a staging area. But until they know he is dead for sure and not in the trees waiting to ambush more firemen like that penis wrinkle in NY, I doubt they will allow any fire personnel at the scene. Well that and protecting the crime scene for evidence processing.
yeah makes sense but the also they are saying things that think he is in there and dead they change their mind ? bodies yes bodies no etc...
and I am sure the whole thing is confusing and the media is guessing grabbing at straws hoping their guess is accurate so they sound like they had the inside scoop !
if its burnt down to nothing and they are saying they are just waiting and its to hot still is the part that seems funny ? thats all :)
the idea of making sure he is not outside ? I thought they had the perimeter locked down so no way he could be outside ? but could also see how they would not take a chance
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 14:08
I thought they identified him via his wallet?
Didn't they find his wallet near Mexico too? Wtf?
I agree with all, except that. That's a shitload of money to kill ONE guy, and possibly score some collateral damage.
Not to mention we are talking about US civis that are guaranteed due process & those sort of suggestions don't jive with the freedons and protection provided to us by our founding fathers...scary thinking for those that want to see our constitution thrown out the window.
Carpet bomb / chems / nuke American civis without due process?? Where is your head molke?? Please think before you press the post button!!
If he would simply refer to it as war with countries we are engauged with, there would be no comment from me, but he STILL mentions 'any other conflict'.
Our govt cannot use these sorts of War like tactics on Americans...it is against the law via the Constitution.
Those willing to give up freedom and liberty for the sake of a little safety, deserve neither freddom or liberty. US civis deserve do process.
Period!!
out...
I agree with all, except that. That's a shitload of money to kill ONE guy, and possibly score some collateral damage.
Again, the comments about use of weaponry was not specific to this situation.
If they had used a nuke on that cabin it would have probably not worked out well for anyone.
GeorgiaBoy
02-13-13, 14:28
Apparently few believe in due process anymore...
What a shame. The 5th and 14th are just as important as the 2nd.
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 14:29
Apparently few believe in due process anymore...
What a shame. The 5th and 14th are just as important as the 2nd.
A guy actively shooting at cops gave up his due process. Unless he stops shooting.
militarymoron
02-13-13, 14:35
gun battle vid:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50140947n
A guy actively shooting at cops gave up his due process. Unless he stops shooting.
was he actively shooting at the cops when his house was lit on fire, or was it a lull in the fight?
"Flame suit on"
Deadly force is deadly force. You don't have to use a firearm. You don't have to use a vehicle. We were involved in a bank robbery and running gun battle two years ago. Multiple shots fired by the bank robbers. We disabled their car and the suspects ran. One of the armed suspects was struck by the Sergeant's truck. That guy lived but was now out of the fight. I caught the other badguy and he surrendered because I got the drop on him. I was fully justified in shooting him but I didn't. He also lived. The other guy was caught by undercovers several hours later at the residence the get away car came back to. He also lived. In this case, deadly force was justified but all survived.
These police officers and deputies are human and they have emotions just like all of us. If they are burning down the structure that the badguy is in, that is deadly force. BUT.... Their intentions are NOT to burn this guy alive! They are removing the fortification from around the badguy! If the badguy chooses to stay in the burning building and die, that is the badguy's decision. If the badguy comes out with his hands up because his fortification is ON FIRE, there is a good chance that he will also survive like our bank robbers. If an officer decides to shoot the guy while he exits, then that officer would surly have a problem. If the officers barricaded the doors and windows and then started the place on fire, then YES they are violating several of the badguy's constitutional rights. BUT, they did not do that. They raked the windows, tore a wall down and gassed the crap out of the place.
Not to mention we are talking about US civis that are guaranteed due process & those sort of suggestions don't jive with the freedons and protection provided to us by our founding fathers...scary thinking for those that want to see our constitution thrown out the window.
Carpet bomb / chems / nuke American civis without due process?? Where is your head molke?? Please think before you press the post button!!
If he would simply refer to it as war with countries we are engauged with, there would be no comment from me, but he STILL mentions 'any other conflict'.
Our govt cannot use these sorts of War like tactics on Americans...it is against the law via the Constitution.
Those willing to give up freedom and liberty for the sake of a little safety, deserve neither freddom or liberty. US civis deserve do process.
Period!!
out...
Remember that my posts about weaponry were in response to Belmont31R's mentioning that incendiary devices were illegal in war. I should have written my earlier posts more clearly. During war with a foreign aggressor, hold nothing back. The same logic applies to a personal fight when your life is on the line, hold nothing back. Usually domestic law enforcement's goal is not to kill but to apprehend, and so their response/tactics reflect that. Everyone should get their day in court and due process.
As much as I'd have liked to see this guy arrested, tried, and later executed (as I said before), I'm not going to sit back and play Monday morning quarterback to the LEOs on the scene who were making the best decisions with the information they had. It would seem to me that at some point the decision was made to burn him out and risk killing him instead of waiting around to take him alive. Maybe they thought he was too big of a risk to escape, or kill again, or do something else; but whoever is responsible for making that decision should expect to undergo some serious scrutiny now.
At no point in my earlier ramblings did I mean to say anything to imply that WMDs should be used on US citizens, and I apologize for giving that impression.
I really don't think much can be accomplished or settled by going any further down this particular rabbit hole. :(
gun battle vid:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50140947n
I wonder who was going full auto? Dorner? SWAT throwing suppressive fire at Dorner to keep his head down?
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 14:58
I wonder who was going full auto? Dorner? Or is that just so many rifles going off at the same time it sounds like full auto?
Too well timed for it to be multiple full auto guns.
You either believe in due proccess or not. This is IMO, worse than killing Americans with drones outside of CONUS. This guy was a complete dirt bag, but when terrorists like the fort hood shooter get better treatment, you know something is wrong.
You have the judge, jury, and executioner here. I don't care what this guy does, you don't burn suspects alive. There was no chance of this guy getting away, just wait him out. Sooner or later hes going to have to come out. Revenge killing and out of control police offices (listen to the tapes FFS) is unacceptable in any situation. We are better than that.
Sorry, when you are in the act of taking hostages and shooting cops you just might not make it out alive. He could have walked out and surrendered and gotten due process.
If he were shooting at you or I, we'd shoot back.
Accepting that tear gas was fired inside, which may or may not start a fire, he was faced with one of two options. If I was in charge I wouldn't risk lives to try and snatch a live suspect who is actively shooting at officers.
The ONLY thing that would change that is hostages.
Agreed. Anybody remember Patty Hearst, the SLA, and the shootout in Compton in 1974?
On May 17, Los Angeles police shot an estimated 1,200 rounds of ammunition into the tiny Compton home as six SLA members shot back. Teargas containers thrown into the hideout started a fire, but the SLA refused to surrender. Autopsy results showed that they continued to fire back even as smoke and flames were searing their lungs; they clearly chose suicide and martyrdom over jail. Randolph Hearst, Patty's father, remarked that the massive attack had turned "dingbats into martyrs." The raid left six SLA members dead, including leader Donald DeFreeze, also known as Cinque. Patty Hearst was not inside the home at the time. She was not found until September 1975.(http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lapd-raid-leaves-six-sla-members-dead)
Sometimes ya just gotta "terminate with extreme prejudice."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjB8z0Bvi14
A guy starts shooting cops, shooting their families, and, when cornered, decides to keep shooting ... well, things are probably not gonna end up with folks singing kumbaya.
Don't forget Bob Matthews and The Order. Glad I'm not the only one who knows all this shit.
thopkins22
02-13-13, 15:05
Too well timed for it to be multiple full auto guns.
Sounds like multiple guns getting some.... You can hear full auto at times when the officers behind the truck aren't shooting, and you can also see them shooting when some of the shorter bursts occurred. My guess would be that the unseen full auto was some of the other officers on scene.
I just hope that Dorner didn't evacuate his skull but died of smoke inhalation after getting burned severely.
Just a clarification, all of the casualties occurred before Dorner entered the cabin correct? Hope none of the good guys were hurt once they had this POS cornered.
Too well timed for it to be multiple full auto guns.
I removed that sentence due to figuring that out, but you must have been responding while I was doing it.:cool:
was he actively shooting at the cops when his house was lit on fire, or was it a lull in the fight?
Take a look at militarymoron's video above your post. In it, you will see officers deploying smoke and/or CS during the firefight.
At least 1 person has stated that police should not be able to use incendiary devices in the course of their duties. Smoke and CS are not incendiary devices just like AR-15's are not machine guns. Yes, they can cause a fire, but that is not their primary purpose like thermite and napalm (true incendiary devices). If you plan on banning the use of any device capable of starting a fire, then I suggest that you start with their handguns. In this particular instance, smoke was an important means for the officers to conceal their movements from an imbedded opponent.
CoryCop had an excellent post. Critics of the police would have a much better case had they barricaded the doors and windows.
Just a clarification, all of the casualties occurred before Dorner entered the cabin correct? Hope none of the good guys were hurt once they had this POS cornered.
Correct.
Another former LAPD officer's manifesto supporting Dorner...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/12/joe-jones-manifesto-christopher-dorner_n_2670513.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
I wonder who was going full auto? Dorner? SWAT throwing suppressive fire at Dorner to keep his head down?
You're right, a lot of shooting but we don't know who was shooting full auto, cops or the mutt or both?
Why would anyone cry for continued due process regarding a man who plotted and executed the murder of an innocent and defenseless woman, a defenseless man and a couple police officers?
Would you also want such due process, possibly at the expense of further lives, for a man holed-up that was videotaped raping small children? If so, where do you draw your line? Who just isn't worth the risk of innocent lives and millions of taxpayer dollars anymore?
Voodoo_Man
02-13-13, 16:19
Why would anyone cry for continued due process regarding a man who plotted and executed the murder of an innocent and defenseless woman, a defenseless man and a couple police officers?
Would you also want such due process, possibly at the expense of further lives, for a man holed-up that was videotaped raping small children? If so, where do you draw your line? Who just isn't worth the risk of innocent lives and millions of taxpayer dollars anymore?
Didn't you know that this POS had a following? People LOVING him (like the kind of people that frequent DU). These same people want to piss all over the system by pushing for this type of thing.
WRT due process.
This guy had plenty of opportunities to surrender and exercise the rights that he had coming to him.
Want a fair and speedy trial by a jury of your peers? Don't keep shooting at cops. They get to shoot back.
Want to stand trial and either make your case, or put the system (LAPD) on trial? Come out of the building when it starts smoking. No one's keeping you in there.
Due process was available and offered to him; he was a cop- he should know the rules. HE made the choice to not avail himself of the opportunities.
Didn't you know that this POS had a following? People LOVING him (like the kind of people that frequent DU). These same people want to piss all over the system by pushing for this type of thing.
On the first day I read the full manifesto and thought that he was bad, but not horrible due to the reasonable and diverse nature of his complaints. Surely there is much to be rectified at too many of our major police departments and it was known before this man.
Then we saw the totally innocent daughter he killed and for most all respect was lost. At some point laws are irrelevant and ultra-practicality can't be ignored any longer, society needed him to go.
Why would anyone cry for continued due process regarding a man who plotted and executed the murder of an innocent and defenseless woman, a defenseless man and a couple police officers?
Would you also want such due process, possibly at the expense of further lives, for a man holed-up that was videotaped raping small children? If so, where do you draw your line? Who just isn't worth the risk of innocent lives and millions of taxpayer dollars anymore?
He got all the process he was due. At the end he was given many chances to surrender but refused. The tear gas was proportional use of force, and yet he still didn't surrender to the gas or the fire. Due Process was served and I will shed no tears for him.
An Undocumented Worker
02-13-13, 16:51
Apparently few believe in due process anymore...
What a shame. The 5th and 14th are just as important as the 2nd.
The Cops were there to bring Dorner through due process, Dorner refused by shooting at them, and the cops had to defend themselves. What they did is no different from you shooting an armed intruder in your own home.
If Dorner came out unarmed there is a good chance he would be sitting in a jail cell right now.
The Cops were there to bring Dorner through due process, Dorner refused by shooting at them, and the cops had to defend themselves. What they did is no different from you shooting an armed intruder in your own home.
If Dorner came out unarmed there is a good chance he would be sitting in a jail cell right now.
Also a very good chance they would have shot him the moment they saw flesh. He killed how many of their own? Someone would have pulled the trigger regardless.
Voodoo_Man
02-13-13, 17:04
If he came up both hands raised in the air yelling "I surrender" he would not have been shot.
He had plenty of opportunity to surrender and take advantage of his rights as a citizen. Instead he chose to kill innocent civilians and assassinate police officers.
Why would anyone cry for continued due process regarding a man who plotted and executed the murder of an innocent and defenseless woman, a defenseless man and a couple police officers?
Would you also want such due process, possibly at the expense of further lives, for a man holed-up that was videotaped raping small children? If so, where do you draw your line? Who just isn't worth the risk of innocent lives and millions of taxpayer dollars anymore?
I'm 100% in favor of due process if he could have been taken into custody without putting more officers at risk. Had he surrendered I would not have supported somebody just shooting him.
All that said, I don't mind that he's dead and we won't have to pay for his stupid trial because HE CHOSE to not surrender.
PrivateCitizen
02-13-13, 17:07
I am not second guessing … just trying to understand …
… but did that seem lot a lot of outbound fire with a very vague target?
And, is it normal at 1:20 for the officer in the black ski cap to just pop 3-5 rounds at random? He has 2 visible friendlies right through that cone.
alienb1212
02-13-13, 17:16
I am not second guessing … just trying to understand …
… but did that seem lot a lot of outbound fire with a very vague target?
And, is it normal at 1:20 for the officer in the black ski cap to just pop 3-5 rounds at random? He has 2 visible friendlies right through that cone.
I'm not sure if you understand that many, many police have absolutely no tactical training or experience. Even if they do it's pretty easy to forget if you don't train regularly.
Heavy Metal
02-13-13, 17:23
Well when I first saw they had him cornered I said ok, all they have to do is wait him out. Maybe even talk him out ( was any attempt made at that? ).
Then when I heard they were using tear gas I just thought ok, they are just going to burn him out.
Right, wrong, justified or not, those were the order of thoughts that went through my mind.
I suppose the only thing in my mind as to justification is the fact that he was undeniably cornered. He was trapped and surrounded by a massive police force. Maybe they made offers to him to give up, I don't know. Haven't heard any such talk. I would think his hostages could have confirmed the .50cal.(and maybe they did)
...but Belmont has a point.... it seems overall they had no intention of ever taking him alive ( nor did he ).
I will give him one thing.. as screwed up as he was.... he really never turned on any citizens that were not part of his LE oriented situation. He could have killed a lot and chose not to. Granted no one deserved to die but even when he knew he was about to die he let others go free.
But he most assuredly DID kill civilians!
Remember, he initiated this whole mess by targeting the civilian Daughter of an Officer and her Boyfriend. Whatever moral high ground he may have had in theory, he flushed it down the toilet with that chicken-shit act.
As far as I am concerned, this was a good roast. It was not worth risking one more casuality to wait him out or risk his escape, he had done more than enough damage. He should have disarmed himself and surrendered if he wanted to live.
He was long bought and paid for.
As somebody alluded to above, no quarter.
I'm 100% in favor of due process if he could have been taken into custody without putting more officers at risk. Had he surrendered I would not have supported somebody just shooting him.
All that said, I don't mind that he's dead and we won't have to pay for his stupid trial because HE CHOSE to not surrender.
Exactly where I'm at right now.
Heavy Metal
02-13-13, 17:25
I'm 100% in favor of due process if he could have been taken into custody without putting more officers at risk. Had he surrendered I would not have supported somebody just shooting him.
All that said, I don't mind that he's dead and we won't have to pay for his stupid trial because HE CHOSE to not surrender.
And you won't be seeing "Free Dorner" bumperstickers for the next 15 years either.
Inkslinger
02-13-13, 17:29
Just throwing this out there. I think we all could agree the "barricading" the structure would mean, preventing him from exiting. Correct? Do you think high volumes of fire directed at possible exits would be as effective as, say boarding up the doors and window? We can never really know how it went down.
It's a shitty situation no matter how you slice it. I would rather have him surrender. I would have excepted him coming out, "Gunz blazing" and getting put down. What do we get? Pull live feed. Burn this mother****er to the ground. The folks at Reynolds Wrap better be upping their tinfoil production capabilities.
TurretGunner
02-13-13, 17:33
Why would anyone cry for continued due process regarding a man who plotted and executed the murder of an innocent and defenseless woman, a defenseless man and a couple police officers?
Would you also want such due process, possibly at the expense of further lives, for a man holed-up that was videotaped raping small children? If so, where do you draw your line? Who just isn't worth the risk of innocent lives and millions of taxpayer dollars anymore?
It doesn't matter what you want. Its a consitutional right we all have.
That is why we have the consitution, so the mob cannot change our foundation nor the sway of popular apease.
They could have waited him out. Unless he is a badger, and he planned to tunnel out, he was going nowhere. They had thermals and knew exactly where and what he was doing. Burning a suspect alive is not kosher no matter how infamous the crime is.
I swear for a community of so called freedom loving Americans, Many here could use a course in civics.
I swear for a community of so called freedom loving Americans, Many here could use a course in civics.
I'd give the ideology a rest primarily because reality presents it's own unique circumstance. It refuses to adhere to our "what should be" scenarios.
As far as the references to our rights established in 1776, nine out of 10 signers would have hung him out back.
Voodoo_Man
02-13-13, 17:51
As far as the references to our rights established in 1776, nine out of 10 signers would have hung him out back.
Hung? Shot by firing squad, with very limited or non-existent appeal rights.
TurretGunner
02-13-13, 18:02
I'd give the ideology a rest primarily because reality presents it's own unique circumstance. It refuses to adhere to our "what should be" scenarios.
As far as the references to our rights established in 1776, nine out of 10 signers would have hung him out back.
Oh yeah? Without a trial?
Lets bring back mob rule and lynch mobs while were at it.....
You have some reading to do.
Live conference going on currently for those interested.
Sucks bad about the deputy KIA, my thoughts are with his family and his two young children.
Heavy Metal
02-13-13, 18:13
Oh yeah? Without a trial?
Lets bring back mob rule and lynch mobs while were at it.....
You have some reading to do.
No trail necessary. The guy was actively resisting, his life was fair game.
Would you still be saying this if a round went thru a wall and killed him?
PA PATRIOT
02-13-13, 18:14
News up-date on Fox News,
Fox news has the victim of the last car jacking who stated Dorner had a rifle and was wearing camo when he was jacked.
From police radio Dorner was engaging police with automatic fire and using smoke canisters over a 25 minute gun battle.
A Police demo team was dismantling the cabin wall by wall when a single shot was heard and then a fire from within the cabin started.
Police state that they did not burn the cabin down on purpose.
Testing for ID is in progress.
So far no word if Dorner was hit or wearing body armor.
TurretGunner
02-13-13, 18:14
WOW...
"we did not intentionaly Burn him out"
TurretGunner
02-13-13, 18:16
No trail necessary. The guy was actively resisting, his life was fair game.
Would you still be saying this if a round went thru a wall and killed him?
He was surrounded in a small structure. I have no problem with him being shot if he presented a target. Blindly firing into a structure or setting it on fire is UNSAT. There could have been someone in that basement, and they could have waited him out.
This is not afganistan.
Oh yeah? Without a trial?
If he had killed two minutemen and another minuteman's innocent daughter, then hijacked a coach after holding a couple hostage? This while continuing to threaten lives until the end? Add to that the fact he was black during that time?
Yes without any friggin trial. Good lord.
TurretGunner
02-13-13, 18:33
If he had killed two minutemen and another minuteman's innocent daughter, then hijacked a coach after holding a couple hostage? This while continuing to threaten lives until the end? Yes, without any friggin trial.
Good lord.
Tell me something.. What year was the consitution adopted and what year was it ratified?
Here a hint high speed: There was no consitution drring the revolutionary war or before hand.
FlyingHunter
02-13-13, 18:34
It doesn't matter what you want. Its a consitutional right we all have.
That is why we have the consitution, so the mob cannot change our foundation nor the sway of popular apease.
They could have waited him out. Unless he is a badger, and he planned to tunnel out, he was going nowhere. They had thermals and knew exactly where and what he was doing. Burning a suspect alive is not kosher no matter how infamous the crime is.
I swear for a community of so called freedom loving Americans, Many here could use a course in civics.
This ^^^TurretGunner is spot on! Lest we continue to devolve into a country of subjects...not citizens.
GeorgiaBoy
02-13-13, 18:37
This ^^^TurretGunner is spot on! Lest we continue to devolve into a country of subjects...not citizens.
+2, absolutely.
Due Process, like the use of force, is a continuum and attaches to all individuals proportionally to what they are doing. The murderer in this case lost his right to have a hearing before a judge because he kept resisting chances to surrender. Dorner could have ended it at anytime and appeared before a judge within 48 hours. He refused. Tear gas was appropriate and proportional use of force. Dorner still did not exit the cabin and surrender. The murderer got what he chose instead of a judicial hearing: his own death.
PA PATRIOT
02-13-13, 18:50
He was surrounded in a small structure. I have no problem with him being shot if he presented a target. Blindly firing into a structure or setting it on fire is UNSAT. There could have been someone in that basement, and they could have waited him out.
This is not afganistan.
First of all no one has "Proved" that the police were responsible for the fire and Dorner could have set it.
Second it was a extended active fire fight with automatic fire being exchanged were a officer was just shot. Suppressing fire is acceptable as long as it does not endanger innocents which it didn't because of location/back stop and it was reported that the owner of the property called police and informed them that the property was vacant. Plus police did not see Dorner dragging a hostage inside so it was extremely reasonable to assume he was a lone.
I'M all for civil rights but this ass wipe forfeited his while answering the request for his surrender with lead. Why risk further life by allowing him to continue firing at police or the cover of darkness which was only a few hours away.
I don't see the liberal press condemning the police response, just a few here.
NCPatrolAR
02-13-13, 19:11
Lets watch the bickering
Not the first time something like this happened.
Let's not forget that Bonnie and Clyde was ambushed in their car by a posse of lawmen with automatic weapons who were hiding in the bushes. Considering the circumstances and the potential danger from these types of criminals, they don't want to take any chances.
Imagine the public outcry if he did some how escape, evade, and ended up hurting/killing another person.
It's not like they torched the ski lodge at Bear Mountain with innocent families inside to drive him out. This was nothing like Waco.
threeheadeddog
02-13-13, 20:28
Everyone deserves due process, it is ingrained in our constitution as a right that must be respected by our govt. This ,IMHO after much thought(I have pondered this for over an hour and am still not firm in my belief), does not fall under the protection of due process.
Lets for a second forget this was Dorner. A man was ingaged in a firefight where he shot at two cops (after a chase where he "reportedly" engaged other LEO unprovoked) and then procedded into a cabin and continued to fire on police. At this point he is actively ingaged in trying to end peoples lives.
Basically I am willing to give the LEO the benifit of the doubt untill proven otherwise. I do this FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS I GIVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO KILL AN INTRUDER THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT. A person is not required to contain, capture, and turn over violent intruders to the police in order to preserve that intruders "right" to due process. They(the people defending there home, car, or willfully defending others) are allowed to use deadly force to preserve the lives of the innocent first.
Had this happened differently(like maby finding Dorner in a cabin to begin with where he didnt engage in violent activity the entire corse of the incident) than I would think differently.
PA PATRIOT
02-13-13, 20:55
Everyone deserves due process, it is ingrained in our constitution as a right that must be respected by our govt. This ,IMHO after much thought(I have pondered this for over an hour and am still not firm in my belief), does not fall under the protection of due process.
Lets for a second forget this was Dorner. A man was engaged in a firefight where he shot at two cops (after a chase where he "reportedly" engaged other LEO unprovoked) and then proceeded into a cabin and continued to fire on police. At this point he is actively engaged in trying to end peoples lives.
Basically I am willing to give the LEO the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. I do this FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS I GIVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO KILL AN INTRUDER THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT. A person is not required to contain, capture, and turn over violent intruders to the police in order to preserve that intruders "right" to due process. They(the people defending there home, car, or willfully defending others) are allowed to use deadly force to preserve the lives of the innocent first.
Had this happened differently(like maby finding Dorner in a cabin to begin with where he didn't engage in violent activity the entire corse of the incident) than I would think differently.
This is probably the best post on The Right of Due Process for active shooter/Live threatening assailant I have seen.
gun battle vid:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50140947n
Dayum.
A few points:
1) I agree with TurretGunner. They could've waited him out, blasting Cher at high volume until he couldn't take it. :D. I'm being silly of course, but they had him surrounded and cut off from resupply.
2) doesn't someone make a gas that'll knock you out? If not, that's a huge hole in the LE/Mil inventory. Throw a "black-out grenade" in there, then bring his bitch ass out on a stretcher. Surely there are substances that'll make a man pass out within a minute or two after inhalation.
3) it's possible that Dorner himself set the fire. His whole motive was to inflict damage upon the LAPD. Physical damage, reputational damage. What better way to hurt their cred than to make it look like they burned him alive. Maybe he set a fire and then gave his pistol an ol' fashioned tongue polishing.
A few points:
1) I agree with TurretGunner. They could've waited him out, blasting Cher at high volume until he couldn't take it. :D. I'm being silly of course, but they had him surrounded and cut off from resupply.
2) doesn't someone make a gas that'll knock you out? If not, that's a huge hole in the LE/Mil inventory. Throw a "black-out grenade" in there, then bring his bitch ass out on a stretcher. Surely there are substances that'll make a man pass out within a minute or two after inhalation.
3) it's possible that Dorner himself set the fire. His whole motive was to inflict damage upon the LAPD. Physical damage, reputational damage. What better way to hurt their cred than to make it look like they burned him alive. Maybe he set a fire and then gave his pistol an ol' fashioned tongue polishing.
#1, waiting out a non-violent person or an EDP is one thing. Waiting out an active shooter, who could possibly have dropped another officer, a reporter, fireman, etc from his covered and concealed position is quite another thing. His continued firing was an active and immediate threat, waiting stopped being an option.
#2, seriously? That would be a medication. Who would administer the dosage? Hippocratic oath, anyone? Would anesthesia really be an appropriate response to a person engaged in the use of deadly force?
The generation of CS gas in canister form is the byproduct of combustion, regardless, whether Dorner set the fire or not is irrelevant, he had multiple opportunities to surrender up until the time he killed himself. He chose not to, just one in a long line of bad decisions that he made.
Voodoo_Man
02-13-13, 23:17
2) doesn't someone make a gas that'll knock you out? If not, that's a huge hole in the LE/Mil inventory. Throw a "black-out grenade" in there, then bring his bitch ass out on a stretcher. Surely there are substances that'll make a man pass out within a minute or two after inhalation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incapacitating_agent#section_3
Sounds like what the Spetznaz used has a 15% fatality rate. Not good for a hostage situation, but maybe for an armed standoff. What's the percentage of times that a CS grenade starts a fire when thrown into a furnished building? I'd bet its close to 15%
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incapacitating_agent#section_3
Sounds like what the Spetznaz used has a 15% fatality rate. Not good for a hostage situation, but maybe for an armed standoff. What's the percentage of times that a CS grenade starts a fire when thrown into a furnished building? I'd bet its close to 15%
One is a use of force, which must be reasonable as defined by Tennessee v. Garner and Graham v. Conner. The other is an application of a drug, regulated by a whole laundry list of regulations, laws, and other controls. These were not issues in Russia.
. ....
It's a shitty situation no matter how you slice it. I would rather have him surrender. I would have excepted him coming out, "Gunz blazing" and getting put down. What do we get? Pull live feed. Burn this mother****er to the ground. The folks at Reynolds Wrap better be upping their tinfoil production capabilities.
I think this is the hiccup this whole issue is devolving around- I understand their concerns about the guy monitoring their movements via the news, but then, since when does the news play more than ten seconds of footage at a time? Seriously- even that CBS video of the shooting was chopped into a bunch of short little segments.
Ordering the news crews COMPLETELY out of the area, then having things go down the way they did- what did you expect? People to just take it at face value?
Do I think this is in any way comparable to Waco? No! Just not well handled.
On a side note, is there any confirmation he used the .50, let alone had it on him?
I ran across at least one news report that claimed he was firing with that, and in such a way that it suggested that weapon was responsible for the KIA officer. Yeah I know- it's the news...
One is a use of force, which must be reasonable as defined by Tennessee v. Garner and Graham v. Conner. The other is an application of a drug, regulated by a whole laundry list of regulations, laws, and other controls. These were not issues in Russia.
Well then they should just make up a new law. These people think they can just pass a law that enables them to indefinitely imprison American citizens who are merely suspected of being enemies of the state, with no access to an attorney, judge or jury. Clearly, they think that laws, rules and regulations are whatever the **** they say they are.
I ran across at least one news report that claimed he was firing with that, and in such a way that it suggested that weapon was responsible for the KIA officer. Yeah I know- it's the news...
Well, that would certainly punch through a SAPI plate like it wasn't even there. Could probably go through 5.
Well then they should just make up a new law. These people think they can just pass a law that enables them to indefinitely imprison American citizens who are merely suspected of being enemies of the state, with no access to an attorney, judge or jury. Clearly, they think that laws, rules and regulations are whatever the **** they say they are.
Oh, do elucidate further. Some magic beans, perhaps?
Oh, do elucidate further. Some magic beans, perhaps?
I don't follow. . . .
During the Branch Davidian Standoff the FBI said Davidians had M2 50cal and the press ran with it and then the FBI was able to justify a 2 mile radius for press and stop ALL press fly overs so that there were no media eyes on what they were up to.
Sounds similar?
D. Christopher
02-14-13, 01:37
As someone said earlier today, Dorner could have come out the door naked, with a white flag tied to his dick and his hands chopped off and he still would have been shot. Emotions were so high that there was just no way that someone wouldn't shoot him. Would have been better for us if we could have taken him alive, but it was all on him.
And of all the tactical ninja skills that this asshole was supposed to possess, I guess we're lucky that he never passed an evasive driving course. He seems to have crashed every vehicle he got his hands on.
The worst part of it all is he showed our enemies around the world and a whole bunch of mental defectives here in the U.S. just how much panic and chaos 1 man with a gun can cause. We didn't handle this well.
During the Branch Davidian Standoff the FBI said Davidians had M2 50cal and the press ran with it and then the FBI was able to justify a 2 mile radius for press and stop ALL press fly overs so that there were no media eyes on what they were up to.
Sounds similar?
A Temporary Flight Restriction (TFR) can be requested by LE and granted by the FAA in minutes. It happens everyday, all over the country. This is done for safety, primarily for the safety of the airmen involved. It is not some tinfoil hat nefarious secret government plot. The need for TFR's over LE activity is very real, as evidenced by the collision of two news helicopters in Phoenix a couple of years ago covering police activity. The were also interfering with legitimate LE flight needs at the time and it was surprising that such a collision hadn't happened earlier. I spend quite a bit of time in a AS350 and worrying about where News9 is while staying out of airport approach traffic and still watching what we need to watch on the ground can get harrowing when ATC tells us to keep an eye out for air traffic we cannot find. The ability to fly wherever one wants is not absolute, nor should it be.
The worst part of it all is he showed our enemies around the world and a whole bunch of mental defectives here in the U.S. just how much panic and chaos 1 man with a gun can cause. We didn't handle this well.
Good point. Between this guy and Lanza, every worthless nobody with delusions of going down in infamy has a pretty good guess about how society will take the bait. The "you will all remember my name by the time I'm done." types.
Moose-Knuckle
02-14-13, 03:27
The worst part of it all is he showed our enemies around the world and a whole bunch of mental defectives here in the U.S. just how much panic and chaos 1 man with a gun can cause. We didn't handle this well.
Good observation, the shot up Tacoma and Ridgeline are proof positive of what can befall us when panic ensues.
". . . look at what a well-planned, patient terrorist assault can do to the average American town. Predictably, the town circles the wagons -- but The Terrorist simply attacks from the middle and watches as the citizens turn and fire upon themselves.
" . . . unflinching look at the havoc a well-trained insurgent could wreak upon an unsuspecting city."
From a review of Balefire (http://www.amazon.com/Balefire-Ken-Goddard/dp/0812533836).
This turd is dead and so is this thread. No need to continue the back and forth BS.
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