View Full Version : Olympic Arms Joins The Fight!
Hopefully this is just the start of all gun manufactures doing the same thing!
http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=573076246049586&id=114264921930723
Press Release: Olympic Arms, Inc. Announces New York State Sales Policy
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Olympic Arms is a staunch believer in and defender of the Constitution of the United States, and with special attention paid to the Bill of Rights that succinctly enumerates the security of our Divinely given Rights. One of those Rights is that to Keep and Bear Arms.
Legislation recently passed in the State of New York outlaws the AR15 and many other firearms, and will make it illegal for the good and free citizens of New York to own a large selection of legal and safe firearms and magazines. We feel as though the passage of this legislation exceeds the authority granted to the government of New York by its citizens, and violates the Constitution of the United States, ignoring such SCOTUS rulings as District of Columbia v. Heller - 554, U.S. 570 of 2008, McDonald v. Chicago - 561 U.S. 3025 of 2010, and specifically the case of United States v. Miller – 307 U.S. 174 of 1939.
Due the passing of this legislation, Olympic Arms would like to announce that the State of New York, any Law Enforcement Departments, Law Enforcement Officers, First Responders within the State of New York, or any New York State government entity or employee of such an entity - will no longer be served as customers.
In short, Olympic Arms will no longer be doing business with the State of New York or any governmental entity or employee of such governmental entity within the State of New York - henceforth and until such legislation is repealed, and an apology made to the good people of the State of New York and the American people.
If the leaders of the State of New York are willing to limit the right of the free and law abiding citizens of New York to arm themselves as they see fit under the Rights enumerate to all citizens of the United State through the Second Amendment, we feel as though the legislators and government entities within the State of New York should have to abide by the same restrictions.
This action has caused a division of the people into classes: Those the government deems valuable enough to protect with modern firearms, and those whose lives have been deemed as having less value, and whom the government has decided do not deserve the right to protect themselves with the same firearms. Olympic Arms will not support such behavior or policy against any citizen of this great nation.
Olympic Arms invites all firearms manufacturers, distributors and firearms dealers to join us in this action to refuse to do business with the State of New York. We must stand together, or we shall surely fall divided.
Sincerely,
Brian Schuetz
President
Olympic Arms, Inc.
Moose-Knuckle
02-12-13, 19:19
For once something good can be said in the same line as Olympic Arms.
Inkslinger
02-12-13, 19:19
New York is going to change their mind as soon as they get word of this!
Moose-Knuckle
02-12-13, 19:22
New York is going to change their mind as soon as they get word of this!
"Olympic who!?" :D
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 19:33
"Olympic who!?" :D
Exactly, nothing more then a cheap PR stunt.
Good for them I guess.
Maybe a PR stunt, maybe not. Still better than pulling a Bill Ruger. I should mention that this time around the "current owners" of Ruger are strongly behind us.
Let me get this straight. Olympic Arms will not do business with government institutions that have never and will never do business with them. What a way to take one for the team. :rolleyes:
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-12-13, 20:02
alaskapopo in 3....2.....1.....
Would it kill you guys to acknowledge that this is a good thing, no matter how small or insignificant their participation is?
I mean we have been taking a beating, and while it may be the playground nerd standing with you, it is better than standing alone.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-12-13, 20:08
Would it kill you guys to acknowledge that this is a good thing, no matter how small or insignificant their participation is?
I mean we have been taking a beating, and while it may be the playground nerd standing with you, it is better than standing alone.
Seriously. People are judging patriots off of the chart now. :suicide:
Whiskey_Bravo
02-12-13, 20:11
alaskapopo in 3....2.....1.....
I was going to post the same thing.
On a serious note. Olympic arms or not, it's a good move.
JBecker 72
02-12-13, 20:17
I hope more manufacturers follow suit. If Colt, Glock and S&W did this, I feel like something might actually change.
Seriously. People are judging patriots off of the chart now. :suicide:
Shits not milspec yo. :D
I'm sure someone else will also be along shortly to politely remind us of how we're all supposed to be on the same side and how actions such as these allegedly fosters an "us vs. them" mentality.
Personally? I hope to see more companies do something similar. A civilian is a civilian.
I personally think that by NOT doing this firearms manufacturers foster and "Us vs. Them" attitude, and not supporting such action does the same.
The NYPD is pretty quick to deploy their "assault weapons" on the streets of Manhattan. Take them away from Bloomberg until the citizens can own them again too!
Olympic Arms invites all firearms manufacturers, distributors and firearms dealers to join us in this action to refuse to do business with the State of New York. We must stand together, or we shall surely fall divided.
This. I've been calling for this type of grassroots activity since Day One. We should be expressing this very view to all our favorite arms and ammunition manufacturers. The manufacturers and industry trade groups should be in this fight as well.
It doesn't have to be a deal breaker on sales volume. New York skylined themselves on this one, so they're the obvious prime target. The spotter round has been fired and verified, now is the time to fire for effect!
At the same time, we need to be reiterating to New York law enforcement officers that they are in fact civilian citizens of the United States. If they believe they "need" access to this life saving equipment, then so should their fellow citizens! The best way to get them off the bench and in the fight is to PROVE it to them, whether they like it or not!
The_War_Wagon
02-12-13, 20:47
Seriously. People are judging patriots off of the chart now. :suicide:
Where have you gone, Tactical Yellow Visor? M4C lifts lonely eyes to you, woo hoo hoo... :p
No matter what I think of Oly as an AR manufacturer, I am very grateful for their standing with the people, and making their voice heard along with us!
They also announced that they were asked to advertise in the FOP journal, and they did more than just decline, they sent a letter with details and citations of the anti-gun actions of FOP and those they endorse. Again, thanks to Olympic Arms for standing with us!
Would it kill you guys to acknowledge that this is a good thing, no matter how small or insignificant their participation is?
I mean we have been taking a beating, and while it may be the playground nerd standing with you, it is better than standing alone.
I see it for what it is - a publicity stunt. A publicity stunt from a company whose products are so poorly made that they would cost lives if routinely used by those who frequently go into harm's way.
I can only hope that others will follow suite.
Good on Olympic Arms to actually speak up
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 20:56
They also announced that they were asked to advertise in the FOP journal, and they did more than just decline, they sent a letter with details and citations of the anti-gun actions of FOP and those they endorse. Again, thanks to Olympic Arms for standing with us!
Hell everyone is asked to advertise in the FOP journal and refusing to do so really does not make a different to them one way or another.
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 21:01
Exactly, nothing more then a cheap PR stunt.
Exactly. Its actually better for cops in New York because they won't even be tempted to buy the crap Oly sells. As for the political motivation that horse has been beaten.
Pat
I see it for what it is - a publicity stunt. A publicity stunt from a company whose products are so poorly made that they would cost lives if routinely used by those who frequently go into harm's way.
Think you're making nothing out of something. It may not be earth shattering but it encourages and contributes to a positive trend, which is better than nothing.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 21:07
This. I've been calling for this type of grassroots activity since Day One. We should be expressing this very view to all our favorite arms and ammunition manufacturers. The manufacturers and industry trade groups should be in this fight as well.
It doesn't have to be a deal breaker on sales volume. New York skylined themselves on this one, so they're the obvious prime target. The spotter round has been fired and verified, now is the time to fire for effect!
At the same time, we need to be reiterating to New York law enforcement officers that they are in fact civilian citizens of the United States. If they believe they "need" access to this life saving equipment, then so should their fellow citizens! The best way to get them off the bench and in the fight is to PROVE it to them, whether they like it or not!
As to refusing sells to LE's in NY or any other state those companies that actually make decent revenue off of LE sales will never, ever do so as it would be like stepping on their own dicks to gain wait?
Police Chiefs not individual officers set departmental policy as they are directed by their elected employer. Hurting the little guy the patrol officer will do nothing to change the views of the higher ups and if anything we are only making more officers change their positive 2A views to the negative side.
Think you're making nothing out of something. It may not be earth shattering but it encourages and contributes to a positive trend, which is better than nothing.
Perhaps.
I'm still operating under the belief that significant gun control (i.e. anything that would outlaw or even complicate my owning the weapons currently in my possession) was never a serious possibility.
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 21:22
As to refusing sells to LE's in NY or any other state those companies that actually make decent revenue off of LE sales will never, ever do so as it would be like stepping on their own dicks to gain wait?
Police Chiefs not individual officers set departmental policy as they are directed by their elected employer. Hurting the little guy the patrol officer will do nothing to change the views of the higher ups and if anything we are only making more officers change their positive 2A views to the negative side.
If these laws get repealed and these companies start selling to LEO's again I would still not buy from them. As cops we need to start a list of companies who screwed us so we never do business with them again.
Pat
Perhaps.
I'm still operating under the belief that significant gun control (i.e. anything that would outlaw or even complicate my owning the weapons currently in my possession) was never a serious possibility.
Tell that to the state of NY.
They tried in IL, it got shut down (for now)
They are gearing up for CO and CA.
You personally may not be affected, but think of the bigger picture.
No matter what I think of Oly as an AR manufacturer, I am very grateful for their standing with the people, and making their voice heard along with us!
They also announced that they were asked to advertise in the FOP journal, and they did more than just decline, they sent a letter with details and citations of the anti-gun actions of FOP and those they endorse. Again, thanks to Olympic Arms for standing with us!
+1...
If these laws get repealed and these companies start selling to LEO's again I would still not buy from them. As cops we need to start a list of companies who screwed us so we never do business with them again.
Pat
Nobody screwed you over. Get a life. The only people screwing anyone over are the politicians that put us in this situation.
Tell that to the state of NY.
They tried in IL, it got shut down (for now)
They are gearing up for CO and CA.
You personally may not be affected, but think of the bigger picture.
I think this high level of state activity does affect us all. In a broad sense, things move in trends, so the more success there is for the antis in some states, the more influence they have in others. In more specific ways, look at just CO and Magpul. They are currently a million mags behind, and may be forced to halt mag production in a few months. CO is also attempting a law to allow lawsuits against manufacturers for gun violence. The shit is already hitting the fan all around us.
citizensoldier16
02-12-13, 21:41
Awesome! Now if we could only get BCM, Larue, Colt, Spikes, Bushmaster, and other manufacturers to follow suit.
Get out your pens, ladies and gentlemen, and start writing letters.
JBecker 72
02-12-13, 21:43
Larue already did it. Barrett did it like a year ago with California.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
I say good for Oly. I wish all the manufacturers would take this stand. Then something might actually be done about it.
This move may be a PR stunt or just symbolic, but it its symbolism that I like.
Thank you Olympic Arms.
I don't want to see anything bad happen to law enforcement officers who are under-armed because of idiotic/evil politicians and their policies, but I also don't want to see anything bad happen to a civilian in these states either.
Can we all agree that the fault here lies squarely in the laps of the gun-grabbers?
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 21:46
Awesome! Now if we could only get BCM, Larue, Colt, Spikes, Bushmaster, and other manufacturers to follow suit.
Get out your pens, ladies and gentlemen, and start writing letters.
Every police officer and agency should remember which companies refuse to sell to cops and boycott them regardless of rather they will sell to cops in red states or not. We are a significant source of revenue for a lot of these companies. I say lets remember when its time to get new sidearms, rifles gear etc.
Pat
Tell that to the state of NY.
They tried in IL, it got shut down (for now)
They are gearing up for CO and CA.
You personally may not be affected, but think of the bigger picture.
Point taken.
As to refusing sells to LE's in NY or any other state those companies that actually make decent revenue off of LE sales will never, ever do so as it would be like stepping on their own dicks to gain wait?
Police Chiefs not individual officers set departmental policy as they are directed by their elected employer. Hurting the little guy the patrol officer will do nothing to change the views of the higher ups and if anything we are only making more officers change their positive 2A views to the negative side.
So you think if Glock didn't sell 50,000 pistols to NY LE, that they wouldn't immediately sell 50,000 more pistols (at a higher profit margin) to civilians across the country? You could drop 50,000 additional Glocks into the supply stream tomorrow and they'd be gone before the invoices came due. ;)
As for cops anti-2A sentiments, why do IGAF? If they don't believe the people who sign their paychecks with their taxes deserve the same life saving equipment choices they do, we don't need their support!
Perhaps.
I'm still operating under the belief that significant gun control (i.e. anything that would outlaw or even complicate my owning the weapons currently in my possession) was never a serious possibility.
Tell that to the American gun owners in the People's Republic of New York!
If these laws get repealed and these companies start selling to LEO's again I would still not buy from them. As cops we need to start a list of companies who screwed us so we never do business with them again.
Pat
While it won't happen, I'd love to see it come to pass that you wouldn't have a single gun manufacturer to buy from when it's all over. "us" includes me and companies like LaRue and Oly aren't screwing LEO's, it's the politicians that are screwing all civilian citizens. That you think you deserve some special dispensation is EXACTLY what fosters an "us vs. them" attitude all around. It perpetuates the exact mentality that the anti-gunners expect and exploit. Good luck with aiding and abetting the enemy. Let us know how that works out for you!
I say lets remember when its time to get new sidearms, rifles gear etc.
Pat
Yes, remember that they had the guts to accept a decline in revenue for the greater good. Will do.
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 21:58
Good luck with aiding and abetting the enemy. Let us know how that works out for you!
Its actually the reverse. Larue and others are banning guns from certain people that are allowed to posses them. So they finished what the anti gun politicians in those states started.
Like I have said before this just punishes the wrong people. The politicians who made these laws won't and don't care. The new rockie patrol officer who can't get a rifle he needs to do his job will. This type of behavior does really push the us vs them mentality.
Pat
Every police officer and agency should remember which companies refuse to sell to cops and boycott them regardless of rather they will sell to cops in red states or not. We are a significant source of revenue for a lot of these companies. I say lets remember when its time to get new sidearms, rifles gear etc.
Pat
LE sales are PR. A gun in a cop's holster is the equivalent of "race on Sunday, sell on Monday". Civilian sales ENORMOUSLY outstrip LE sales and LE profit margins are too thin to live off of. Only large DoD contracts and civilian sales are enough to keep the doors open.
If you think your LE brothers in NY deserve more than their civilian counterparts do, you're an elitist. Go ahead and do your silly little boycott. It will be as ineffective as your argument here in this thread. :D
DreadPirateMoyer
02-12-13, 21:59
To all those complaining because it's Olympic Arms, or because you're skeptical of their motivations, c'mon now. Hell, if Super Soaker or Nerf came to our defense, I'd support it (in before "Super Soaker/Nerf make better guns than Oly").
And on that note, this could very well end up like the ESOS in Harrisburg, PA. At first, it was a few big'ish stores in the area that began to boycott, then a few small'ish stores, and they kept slowly building until it hit a critical mass and EVERYONE boycott the event. LaRue's start and Oly's reinforcement -- for whatever reason it was done -- may be enough to get more people on board. I'd love that.
And Pat, I hope every police officer boycotts the manufacturers that do this, and I hope all manufacturers eventually join on. I'd rest much easier at night knowing the people are better armed than government employees. :)
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:00
Yes, remember that they had the guts to accept a decline in revenue for the greater good. Will do.
They are doing this to increase revenue. Its a giant political statement and there is a large portion of the population that is buying into it and will buy more guns and gear from these companies. So they can't tell me they are going to lose money. As for the greater good. Cops being out gunned and dying never serves the greater good.
Pat
Its actually the reverse. Larue and others are banning guns from certain people that are allowed to posses them. So they finished what the anti gun politicians in those states started.
Like I have said before this just punishes the wrong people. The politicians who made these laws won't and don't care. The new rockie patrol officer who can't get a rifle he needs to do his job will. This type of behavior does really push the us vs them mentality.
Pat
You couldn't be more wrong. If that rookie cop isn't willing to take to the streets with a 7 round mag like his fellow civilians, he can tell his government that he will not do the job. Aim your cannon in the direction of the enemy, not the ranks you're "supposed" to be standing shoulder to shoulder with. You are the one making it an "us vs. them" atmosphere, we're simply leveling the playing field. A good number of those rank and file officers in NY have that "us vs. them" mentality. It's time they put their money where their mouths are!
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:03
LE sales are PR. A gun in a cop's holster is the equivalent of "race on Sunday, sell on Monday". Civilian sales ENORMOUSLY outstrip LE sales and LE profit margins are too thin to live off of. Only large DoD contracts and civilian sales are enough to keep the doors open.
If you think your LE brothers in NY deserve more than their civilian counterparts do, you're an elitist. Go ahead and do your silly little boycott. It will be as ineffective as your argument here in this thread. :D
Their your brothers too and no I am not an elitist. I would be if I supported the law to ban guns. A concept that many on here don't seem to understand is two wrongs don't make a right. Very simple concept not sure why its lost on so many.
We also need to get DOD on board.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:05
You couldn't be more wrong. If that rookie cop isn't willing to take to the streets with a 7 round mag like his fellow civilians, he can tell his government that he will not do the job. Aim your cannon in the direction of the enemy, not the ranks you're "supposed" to be standing shoulder to shoulder with. You are the one making it an "us vs. them" atmosphere, we're simply leveling the playing field. A good number of those rank and file officers in NY have that "us vs. them" mentality. It's time they put their money where their mouths are!
Say that to him when he is shot dead while reloading because unlike his fellow civilians he is called to protect everyone else. Most men only have to worry about themselves and their family. Cops have to worry about themselves, their family and the whole community which they serve.
Pat
They are doing this to increase revenue. Its a giant political statement and there is a large portion of the population that is buying into it and will buy more guns and gear from these companies. So they can't tell me they are going to lose money. As for the greater good. Cops being out gunned and dying never serves the greater good.
Pat
So you admit that more guns are sold to citizens that LE agencies. The math really is simple once you put it to pen and paper!
As for being outgunned, by who? The American citizen? Perhaps if LE agencies and anti-gun cops started thinking correctly, it wouldn't be an issue! How dare you leave my family undergunned and then protest that you're undergunned! The lady doth protest too much!
F-Trooper05
02-12-13, 22:07
As for the greater good. Cops being out gunned and dying never serves the greater good.
But citizens being outgunned does?
They are doing this to increase revenue. Its a giant political statement and there is a large portion of the population that is buying into it and will buy more guns and gear from these companies. So they can't tell me they are going to lose money. As for the greater good. Cops being out gunned and dying never serves the greater good.
Pat
There is no way for any of the boycotting companies to know if this type of stand will or won't hurt them in the long run, though if you don't have a big LE market then agreed the risk is lesser. But the far greater point it the taking of a stand somewhere before it's too late.
You tend to see absolutely everything as a police officer first and a citizen second, which you also are. The latter part matters and so do we.
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:08
So you admit that more guns are sold to citizens that LE agencies. The math really is simple once you put it to pen and paper!
As for being outgunned, by who? The American citizen? Perhaps if LE agencies and anti-gun cops started thinking correctly, it wouldn't be an issue! How dare you leave my family undergunned and then protest that you're undergunned! The lady doth protest too much!
You do understand that I don't support the gun control laws passed in New York correct? We have talked about this before. What we disagree on is Larue's and others attempts to fight this by punishing cops. If Larue wanted to do some good they would raise the prices for cops in these areas and donate the difference to local pro gun groups to fight this legislation.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:09
But citizens being outgunned does?
Did not say that. Again the two wrongs don't make a right concept flew over your head.
Pat
Their your brothers too and no I am not an elitist. I would be if I supported the law to ban guns. A concept that many on here don't seem to understand is two wrongs don't make a right. Very simple concept not sure why its lost on so many.
We also need to get DOD on board.
Pat
When anti-gun cops publicly call for gun restrictions, they don't deserve anything more than what they're willing to have carried on the streets by their fellow law abiding citizens. Instead of getting in a huff at those who don't agree with special dispensation for cops, perhaps you should be getting on those anti-gun "brothers" of yours! I certainly do. As a matter of fact, I'm doing it right now! You need to get with the program and stop allowing the anti-gunners divide and conquer tactics to work on you! Do it for MY children's sake!
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 22:11
As for cops anti-2A sentiments, why do IGAF? If they don't believe the people who sign their paychecks with their taxes deserve the same life saving equipment choices they do, we don't need their support!
So basically "You" not knowing were each N/Y's L/E's loyalties lay on the 2A issue want to just force "YOUR" 2A opinions onto them by supporting a boycott of L/E sales in the state, Its your way/opinion or do without!
In essence your no better then those POS hypocrites on the other side of the 2A issue.
I think if you really wanted to punish NY, you'd REQUIRE all their cops to carry Olys.
You do understand that I don't support the gun control laws passed in New York correct? We have talked about this before. What we disagree on is Larue's and others attempts to fight this by punishing cops. If Larue wanted to do some good they would raise the prices for cops in these areas and donate the difference to local pro gun groups to fight this legislation.
Pat
If they raised the prices ten fold, I'd agree with you. I really don't care if you disagree with the laws or not, you're not willing to go all in on the fight. So long as you keep your special dispensations, you may not like it, but you have no skin in the game.
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:15
There is no way for any of the boycotting companies to know if this type of stand will or won't hurt them in the long run, though if you don't have a big LE market then agreed the risk is lesser. But the far greater point it the taking of a stand somewhere before it's too late.
You tend to see absolutely everything as a police officer first and a citizen second, which you also are. The latter part matters and so do we.
Is anyone upset that FFL dealers with the right license can keep full auto dealer samples on hand but the average citizen can not. Where is the outrage. Basically we have a bad law that was passed and instead of fighting it properly some are directing their anger towards cops out of a strange sense of jealousy. These same people never seen to be there when the 2 am burglary call comes. Nor are they running to help when some active shooter is killing people. In New Town those that answered the 911 call were not just citizens they were cops. Many on here are angry because bad laws got passed and I understand that. But those same people want to disarm those that put their life on the line to save others in their community. That I don't understand. Direct your anger at the right people.
Pat
F-Trooper05
02-12-13, 22:15
Did not say that. Again the two wrongs don't make a right concept flew over your head.
Pat
And clearly the concept of cops following the same rules as citizens has flown over yours. As an Alaskan, this concerns me.
Whiskey_Bravo
02-12-13, 22:16
As for the greater good. Cops being out gunned and dying never serves the greater good.
Pat
So civilians being outgunned and dying is cool? I mean I understanding you work in a fing war zone or something up in Alaska, but I believe I deserve the same right as you to protect myself and my family as you do yourself and your brothers. I am happy some companies Agree with me.
Edit:
I don't think anybody here wants to "punish" le like you keep talking about. If the government of a particular state wants to restrict the rights of the majority, I don't see a problem with a company refusing to sell to the small minority that is connected to the government.
And FFS man, we get it. You run toward the danger while everybody else pisses their pants and runs away. You have stated this before. I think most here at least get the basics of the everyday danger le faces. It is an honorable and dangerous job. There are a lot of people here that have done or are doing dangerous jobs so please stop believing you are a special snowflake.
So basically "You" not knowing were each N/Y's L/E's loyalties lay on the 2A issue want to just force "YOUR" 2A opinions onto them by supporting a boycott of L/E sales in the state, Its your way/opinion or do without!
In essence your no better then those POS hypocrites on the other side of the 2A issue.
Not at all. You and AKpopo don't get it. I don't want cops outgunned anymore than I want the other citizens of NY outgunned. But the rank and file who will not stand arm in arm with the citizens they swore to protect ARE part of the problem. They should be excoriated in the LE community. The error of their ways should be pointed out by their fellow officers. If the anti-gun cops who allow themselves to be used as pawns in the anti-gun fight are willing to take part in the divide an conquer tactics, they deserve to be boycotted by these companies that make a living off ALL American citizens. If you don't support the citizen, then why should the citizen support you? If you really want to make a difference, go to your next squad meeting and call out your brother officers that don't support citizen's rights.
I can assure you it happens in both my agencies!
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:19
And clearly the concept of cops following the same rules as citizens has flown over yours. As an Alaskan, this concerns me.
The point still flew over your head. I don't support any gun ban. Also as for the same rules. So you going to be there when I get a shots fired call and have to respond. I doubt it. Its not your responsibility it is the cops however. So the rules are different from the start.
Pat
Is anyone upset that FFL dealers with the right license can keep full auto dealer samples on hand but the average citizen can not. Where is the outrage. Basically we have a bad law that was passed and instead of fighting it properly some are directing their anger towards cops out of a strange sense of jealousy. These same people never seen to be there when the 2 am burglary call comes. Nor are they running to help when some active shooter is killing people. In New Town those that answered the 911 call were not just citizens they were cops. Many on here are angry because bad laws got passed and I understand that. But those same people want to disarm those that put their life on the line to save others in their community. That I don't understand. Direct your anger at the right people.
Pat
We have no jealousy and we don't want to disarm cops. But cops do indeed want to disarm the peasants. It's sad and pathetic, but it is what it is. We're calling out hypocrisy and you feel uncomfortable about it. I get that. It does affect you. But let's not get all high and mighty here. YOU need to be calling out our brother officers that support this garbage. Our families and friends do not deserve it. How about we clean our own house before pissing on other's?
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:22
So civilians being outgunned and dying is cool? I mean I understanding you work in a fing war zone or something up in Alaska, but I believe I deserve the same right as you to protect myself and my family as you do yourself and your brothers. I am happy some companies Agree with me.
Never said that. However a cops use for his weapon goes beyond his own self protection and it extends to everyone he serves in his community. Your responsibility ends with yourself and your family.
Pat
So basically "You" not knowing were each N/Y's L/E's loyalties lay on the 2A issue want to just force "YOUR" 2A opinions onto them by supporting a boycott of L/E sales in the state, Its your way/opinion or do without!
In essence your no better then those POS hypocrites on the other side of the 2A issue.
I'm actually a LE supplier so I'm pretty much on the LE side of things by default (assuming they aren't actually in the wrong).
But I can understand why you would choose not to do business with the government agencies that deny their citizens their rights.
Let's take an extreme hypothetical to give an example of what we are saying.
Would you, if your state passed a law restricting the voting rights of a group based upon race, gender or religion enforce such a law if ordered?
Would you, if your state passed a law restricting free speech of a group based upon political views enforce such a law if ordered?
Would you, if your state passed a law restricting religious freedoms of certain religions enforce such a law if ordered?
And if you would be unwilling to violate the rights of citizens in those examples why would you condemn a manufacturer who supports the right to "keep and bear arms" of NY citizens by essentially denying arms to the same government (and agencies of enforcement) which are responsible for those violations?
Thankfully 99.999% of "working" officers down here seem to be very pro gun. But if I had a LE customer who was purchasing an AR and he expressed an opinion that "ordinary people shouldn't be allowed to own such a weapon" I'd politely decline the sale.
When Ken Jenne was Sheriff I refused (not that they were making any huge direct purchases from a small business like mine) to do any business with his agency because he supported the reimplementation of the Clinton ban. I would still do individual officers sales for BSO deputies because I knew most of them did not share the same opinion as Ken Jenne and they didn't think very much of him. Thankfully he was later arrested on corruption charges and the problem resolved itself.
The point still flew over your head. I don't support any gun ban. Also as for the same rules. So you going to be there when I get a shots fired call and have to respond. I doubt it. Its not your responsibility it is the cops however. So the rules are different from the start.
Pat
Your "shots fired" is a red herring. Are YOU going to be there when shots are fired during a home invasion? Are YOU going to be there when a rapist comes calling? No, you're not! You'll be minutes away while someone is dying. How many officers are feloniously killed by gunfire in a year? Now how many citizens are feloniously killed by gunfire in a year? Get the point?
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:25
We have no jealousy and we don't want to disarm cops. But cops do indeed want to disarm the peasants. It's sad and pathetic, but it is what it is. We're calling out hypocrisy and you feel uncomfortable about it. I get that. It does affect you. But let's not get all high and mighty here. YOU need to be calling out our brother officers that support this garbage. Our families and friends do not deserve it. How about we clean our own house before pissing on other's?
Uhh no! I don't want a disarmed populace. Most cops are not anti gun as you probably know being one yourself. I also agree cops need to stand together in opposition to these gun laws. However what we don't agree on is screwing over our brothers and sisters who have the poor luck of having to work in banned states. Their life is worth the same as mine and yours and their communities deserve the same protection. So fight the fight at the right level. Go after the politicians and fight the law on that level. This is just a diversion that is going to do no good and a lot of harm.
Pat
Pat we do not want to disarm the police. We want them on our side and if enough manufacturers stopped selling to them they would be by default.
It also shows that we can only be minimized to a certain extent, which is highly critical. While we have accepted that not everyone can tote a class III, we also have limits of such acceptances and they have been realized.
Never said that. However a cops use for his weapon goes beyond his own self protection and it extends to everyone he serves in his community. Your responsibility ends with yourself and your family.
Pat
Spare us the sanctimonious BS. It's unbecoming. You're trying to paint a picture that justifies you having more and better, which is very much hypocritical and elitist. Let me ask you this. If multiple armed intruders were breaking into a non-LE loved one's home, would you feel they need less superior equipment to what you use on the street?
Didn't think so...
Never said that. However a cops use for his weapon goes beyond his own self protection and it extends to everyone he serves in his community. Your responsibility ends with yourself and your family.
Pat
Cops also have backup, greater latitude in a defensive situation and have CHOSEN their occupation. How about we just respect the rights of ALL citizens including those who happen to be LE.
NY cops should be able to get ARs and high capacity magazines because they should be LEGAL for any law abiding citizen. Unfortunately NY has chosen to restrict the civil rights of it's citizens and some feel that those citizens who happen to be LE officers should be held to the same standard.
It is so unfortunate that citizens who work in LE and other law abiding citizens are put at odds over this issue. NY cops should be 100% against this because the day will come when they are no longer LEOs and are regular Joe Citizens and there is no reason they shouldn't be able to have AR rifles and standard capacity magazines.
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:29
Pat we do not want to disarm the police. We want them on our side and if enough manufacturers stopped selling to them they would be by default.
It also shows that we can only be minimized to a certain extent, which is highly critical. While we have accepted that not everyone can tote a class III, we also have limits of such acceptances and they have been realized.
I understand that and most line level officers are on our side. But this kind of crap from Larue is a slap in the face to officers. I was a huge customer of Larue. Probably spent over 5K there in the last 10 years or so. But I won't spend a dime with them now unless they change their policy. I support what Bravo company did with raising their price on some items and donating that money to the NRA to fight these laws. Larue should do something like that instead.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:31
Cops also have backup, greater latitude in a defensive situation and have CHOSEN their occupation. How about we just respect the rights of ALL citizens including those who happen to be LE.
NY cops should be able to get ARs and high capacity magazines because they should be LEGAL for any law abiding citizen. Unfortunately NY has chosen to restrict the civil rights of it's citizens and some feel that those citizens who happen to be LE officers should be held to the same standard.
It is so unfortunate that citizens who work in LE and other law abiding citizens are put at odds over this issue. NY cops should be 100% against this because the day will come when they are no longer LEOs and are regular Joe Citizens and there is no reason they shouldn't be able to have AR rifles and standard capacity magazines.
Not all cops have back up. For 5 hours of my 10 hours shift I am alone and all back up will do is take my statement or call the ME. Yes we have chosen this career and most have done so because they want to help people and serve their community. What a way to reward that desire to serve.
Pat
Uhh no! I don't want a disarmed populace. Most cops are not anti gun as you probably know being one yourself. I also agree cops need to stand together in opposition to these gun laws. However what we don't agree on is screwing over our brothers and sisters who have the poor luck of having to work in banned states. Their life is worth the same as mine and yours and their communities deserve the same protection. So fight the fight at the right level. Go after the politicians and fight the law on that level. This is just a diversion that is going to do no good and a lot of harm.
Pat
No, their lives are worth MORE than the citizens they police. They rarely protect citizens with their guns. They much more commonly protect their own lives when some scumbag turns a gun on THEM.
This is fighting the fight at the correct level. Previous tactics on the pro-gun side have not stemmed the tide of anti-gun legislation. Legislation that is ALWAYS supported by some jerk sporting a badge. It's time that jerk gets a dose of reality. Welcome to advanced warfighting on the gun control battlefield. You might as well get used to it and start calling it like it is, because it's not going to get any better until ALL LEO's have some skin in the game. :(
I understand that and most line level officers are on our side. But this kind of crap from Larue is a slap in the face to officers. I was a huge customer of Larue. Probably spent over 5K there in the last 10 years or so. But I won't spend a dime with them now unless they change their policy. I support what Bravo company did with raising their price on some items and donating that money to the NRA to fight these laws. Larue should do something like that instead.
Pat
If a dose of reality that you ARE a citizen just like everyone else, then it's an overdue slap. :(
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:34
Spare us the sanctimonious BS. It's unbecoming. You're trying to paint a picture that justifies you having more and better, which is very much hypocritical and elitist. Let me ask you this. If multiple armed intruders were breaking into a non-LE loved one's home, would you feel they need less superior equipment to what you use on the street?
Didn't think so...
Again I don't support the AWB that was passed in New York. One thing you can't grasp is no matter which home is broken into with multiple armed attackers the police will respond. Do you want them coming with 7 round mags or 30 to save your ass? I bet most citizens would want the cavalry that is coming to be as well armed as possible.
Not all cops have back up. For 5 hours of my 10 hours shift I am alone and all back up will do is take my statement or call the ME. Yes we have chosen this career and most have done so because they want to help people and serve their community. What a way to reward that desire to serve.
Pat
Accepting special dispensation from your political handlers. What a way to reward those you're supposed to serve. :(
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:36
If a dose of reality that you ARE a citizen just like everyone else, then it's an overdue slap. :(
No not like everyone else. I have gotten punched kicked, spit on etc during the course of my career and its considered normal. That is not normal for say a receptionist or a clerk. The point being taking guns away from those at the highest risk and with the most need is STUPID.
Pat
Again I don't support the AWB that was passed in New York. One thing you can't grasp is no matter which home is broken into with multiple armed attackers the police will respond. Do you want them coming with 7 round mags or 30 to save your ass? I bet most citizens would want the cavalry that is coming to be as well armed as possible.
I want them all dead on the ground from a homeowners LEGAL 30 rd mag, so that you can safely come in and string some crime scene tape! :)
If you're responding to a homeowner's place where only 7 rd mags are legal, you'll most likely arrive with the intruders long gone and dead occupants to cart out in the meatwagon. That's what we're trying to get you to come to grips with. :(
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:36
Accepting special dispensation from your political handlers. What a way to reward those you're supposed to serve. :(
Really?:suicide:
No not like everyone else. I have gotten punched kicked, spit on etc during the course of my career and its considered normal. That is not normal for say a receptionist or a clerk. The point being taking guns away from those at the highest risk and with the most need is STUPID.
Pat
Except you refuse to see that we AREN'T in the highest risk category, our citizens are! You love what you do or you wouldn't be doing it. You think your citizens love feeling outgunned in a high crime environment? We're asking you to walk a mile in their shoes and stand up to those that would take their rights away, with your own rights if necessary!
Really?:suicide:
Yes, really...
I've taken an oath to put my life on the line for the citizens of my country on multiple occasions. I fail to see what how the right to own full cap mags and "assault weapons" can really compare to that. :(
Alaskapopo
02-12-13, 22:42
Except you refuse to see that we AREN'T in the highest risk category, our citizens are! You love what you do or you wouldn't be doing it. You think your citizens love feeling outgunned in a high crime environment? We're asking you to walk a mile in their shoes and stand up to those that would take their rights away, with your own rights if necessary!
Cops are the ones that walk the beat in an attempt to make our citizens safer. Like I have said a million times now. I don't support any AWB! However I also don't support disarming our cops as you seem to.
Pat
Not all cops have back up. For 5 hours of my 10 hours shift I am alone and all back up will do is take my statement or call the ME. Yes we have chosen this career and most have done so because they want to help people and serve their community. What a way to reward that desire to serve.
Pat
You have more backup than the average NYer.
And if you became a LE expecting to be rewarded for your choice then you are bound to be constantly disappointed. All NY's who ever served in the military will be subject to the NY law, they are being rewarded by having their rights stripped. Do you really believe you are "more special"?
If every company that produces ARs decided to boycott sales to NY and a NY LEO decided "this is bullshit...how am I to do my job with 7 round magazines?" he is now in the same position as every other NYer and like them, he should contemplate moving to a free state.
Whiskey_Bravo
02-12-13, 22:48
Never said that. However a cops use for his weapon goes beyond his own self protection and it extends to everyone he serves in his community. Your responsibility ends with yourself and your family.
Pat
If you say so. I would personally protect friends and neighbors if needed.
Also, what does your statement mean? You deserve an ar-15 and I don't? Or you should have one because you are special and if I can't have one it just sucks for me.
I understand that and most line level officers are on our side. But this kind of crap from Larue is a slap in the face to officers. I was a huge customer of Larue. Probably spent over 5K there in the last 10 years or so. But I won't spend a dime with them now unless they change their policy. I support what Bravo company did with raising their price on some items and donating that money to the NRA to fight these laws. Larue should do something like that instead.
Pat
Fair enough, but look at it this somewhat unlikely but possible way:
Smith & Wesson decides to join in because they've seen enough and hope to spur collective action. Then RR and DMPS or whoever some departments buy from see opportunity to be remembered for doing what's right too.
Now the market is tightened to the point that some depts really can't get what they need. What do you think may happen next? Well perhaps a group of chiefs or a state LE association starts pushing their local Joe Leftcock anti-gun democrats to loosen restrictions a bit and heed the Constitution or they do something else out of necessity.
It's called leverage. Would be a little pain at first but in the end we'd all win.
Cops are the ones that walk the beat in an attempt to make our citizens safer. Like I have said a million times now. I don't support any AWB! However I also don't support disarming our cops as you seem to.
Pat
No kidding? You mean the beat that hundreds if not thousands of your fellow citizens also walk as a matter of daily life? Yes, you make them marginally safer. Sadly, statistics prove over and over that you'll never make them fully safe. We'd need a cop in every citizen's hip pocket to do that. I neither support an AWB nor restricting cops access to AW's. Yet if they're going to walk the same beat their citizens do, they should have no more access than said citizens. I can't fathom why you don't get that. I support EQUALITY! If NY determines that 7 rounds max is all her citizens need, then I support NY cops being EQUALLY armed! You say that BG's won't heed that limit? No shit Sherlock! Let's get those cops saying the EXACT same thing as their citizens to these evil politicians!
It's exactly that simple...
Again I don't support the AWB that was passed in New York. One thing you can't grasp is no matter which home is broken into with multiple armed attackers the police will respond. Do you want them coming with 7 round mags or 30 to save your ass? I bet most citizens would want the cavalry that is coming to be as well armed as possible.
I bet the citizen would want to be just as well armed to repel the attack and not need police to respond! Notice that doesn't say "prevent".
I know that you are pro citizen gun rights, but you need to understand that you are a citizen just as much as I am, but above that, a SERVANT of your fellow citizens. You have chosen to put the citizens who don't wear a badge above yourself by SERVING and protecting. That is your choice. You should have chosen this profession because you truely believe in a cause, and not because you feel that you have more power or benefits than your fellow citizen.
By saying that you feel you have more "need" for "x" item, you are basically saying that you feel your chosen profession has given you more right to "x" item than the citizen that happens to not wear a badge. You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth. It's either one way or the other.
PA PATRIOT
02-12-13, 22:54
Not at all. You and AKpopo don't get it. I don't want cops outgunned anymore than I want the other citizens of NY outgunned. But the rank and file who will not stand arm in arm with the citizens they swore to protect ARE part of the problem. They should be excoriated in the LE community. The error of their ways should be pointed out by their fellow officers. If the anti-gun cops who allow themselves to be used as pawns in the anti-gun fight are willing to take part in the divide an conquer tactics, they deserve to be boycotted by these companies that make a living off ALL American citizens. If you don't support the citizen, then why should the citizen support you? If you really want to make a difference, go to your next squad meeting and call out your brother officers that don't support citizen's rights.
I can assure you it happens in both my agencies!
Why is it a "error of their ways" to have a different opinion then you?
And the funny thing about your whole argument is you don't even know what the 2A opinions are of those officers you wish to handicap with a boycott. Hell you may have 98% of the troops agreeing with your stance and then damaging that support with such a boycott but you just don't care and want to rush to judgment.
You talk about "excoriating" follow officers for having a different belief which is just absurd, I don't know what little PD's you work for but trying that in a major department and it would get your ass kicked.
There are Zealots on both sides of the issue and your blind approach not knowing if your boycott support is actually improving the situation especially since your acting on zero intelligence of were the patrol officers (Not the anti gun Chiefs) 2A loyalty lays is only once again going to piss off a lot of L/E supporters in NY.
Whiskey_Bravo
02-12-13, 22:57
You have more backup than the average NYer.
And if you became a LE expecting to be rewarded for your choice then you are bound to be constantly disappointed. All NY's who ever served in the military will be subject to the NY law, they are being rewarded by having their rights stripped. Do you really believe you are "more special"?
If every company that produces ARs decided to boycott sales to NY and a NY LEO decided "this is bullshit...how am I to do my job with 7 round magazines?" he is now in the same position as every other NYer and like them, he should contemplate moving to a free state.
Well said
Cops are the ones that walk the beat in an attempt to make our citizens safer. Like I have said a million times now. I don't support any AWB! However I also don't support disarming our cops as you seem to.
Pat
Honestly I don't think ANYONE actually wants to put NY cops at risk.
But do you at least understand that notion that IF they were to be held to the same standard to glaring absurdity of the NY law would be more obvious?
If cops actually DID have to respond to 911 calls with a back pack full of 7 round magazines do you think that would make the average NYer likely to reconsider their support of the current law?
Let's step into reality for a moment. You weren't going to by an Olympic rifle anyway. Even if they came out completely flaming gay about their desire to offer every LEO a rifle at half price you probably still wouldn't buy one. You'd say "That's great of them" and carry a Colt. And I don't think there are too many LEOs in NY packing Olympics either. I'm only aware of a single agency that actually approves them for duty use.
So this is basically message sending on the part of Olympic that they do not support the NY gun laws and that they support their civilian customers. No LEOs anywhere have actually been harmed or been put at risk of being disarmed. The ONLY people who have been disarmed are the NON LEO citizens of NY.
Also you are always talking about people being "anti LEO" or having a "us vs. them" mentality and then in the same breath you espouse special consideration for LEOs vs. other citizens. If you want to get rid of the "us vs them" crap, you are going to have to build YOUR HALF of that bridge. You are going to have to do it all the time and remember to not undo the work you have done.
And every other non LEO who has built THEIR HALF of the bridge will eventually meet you. Nobody should have to build the whole damn bridge.
Why is it a "error of their ways" to have a different opinion then you?
And the funny thing about your whole argument is you don't even know what the 2A opinions are of those officers you wish to handicap with a boycott. Hell you may have 98% of the troops agreeing with your stance and then damaging that support with such a boycott but you just don't care and want to rush to judgment.
You talk about "excoriating" follow officers for having a different belief which is just absurd, I don't know what little PD's you work for but trying that in a major department and it would get your ass kicked.
There are Zealots on both sides of the issue and your blind approach not knowing if your boycott support is actually improving the situation especially since your acting on zero intelligence of were the patrol officers (Not the anti gun Chiefs) 2A loyalty lays is only once again going to piss off a lot of L/E supporters in NY.
I work for an agency with over 170 deputies in a county of over 600,000 citizens. I do not live in a blue state. It's more likely that an anti-gun deputy would get their ass kicked, but that isn't likely to happen either.
I know damn good and well that 98% of NYC cops (nor cops in other NYS jurisdictions) are pro-gun. I absolutely know that every one of those anti-gun chief's in NYS don't care enough about what their officers or citizens think to bother with their opinion. It sends the same message regardless.
You are not special
You are not a unique little snowflake
You do not deserve to have more than what your citizens have
Those that ARE anti-gun and believe in restricting the 2nd Amendment rights of their fellow citizens while enjoying special privileges they do not deserve are in grave error!
Sorry if you think they deserve special treatment and special dispensation over their fellow citizens. I do not and I will not support your "specialness". :(
Here's what I do know. If I were to support any LEO's access to restricted items, it would only be those sheriff's and chiefs in NYS that openly called out Cuomo and told him (or the feds) that they will not enforce these laws and that they are not welcome within their jurisdictions. I'd also support any group of officers who openly spoke against their chiefs and politicians. Sadly, I've yet to see any of them put their own skin in the game. :(
As for pissing off the supporters, I want them mad! I want them knocking down the walls of those anti-gun administrators!
Belmont31R
02-12-13, 23:04
Plenty of incidents of citizens protecting themselves.
LA Riots....the police pulled back and anyone left inside was on their own.
Katrina....tons of cops left their post, and a few participated in the looting.
It would be absurd for average Joe to rely on the police for protection during such events.
Do we forget the NRA video of the cops breaking the old lady's arm? I thought were all cheering BCM on donating money to the NRA? They produced it.
Honestly I don't think ANYONE actually wants to put NY cops at risk.
But do you at least understand that notion that IF they were to be held to the same standard to glaring absurdity of the NY law would be more obvious?
If cops actually DID have to respond to 911 calls with a back pack full of 7 round magazines do you think that would make the average NYer likely to reconsider their support of the current law?
Let's step into reality for a moment. You weren't going to by an Olympic rifle anyway. Even if they came out completely flaming gay about their desire to offer every LEO a rifle at half price you probably still wouldn't buy one. You'd say "That's great of them" and carry a Colt. And I don't think there are too many LEOs in NY packing Olympics either. I'm only aware of a single agency that actually approves them for duty use.
So this is basically message sending on the part of Olympic that they do not support the NY gun laws and that they support their civilian customers. No LEOs anywhere have actually been harmed or been put at risk of being disarmed. The ONLY people who have been disarmed are the NON LEO citizens of NY.
Also you are always talking about people being "anti LEO" or having a "us vs. them" mentality and then in the same breath you espouse special consideration for LEOs vs. other citizens. If you want to get rid of the "us vs them" crap, you are going to have to build YOUR HALF of that bridge. You are going to have to do it all the time and remember to not undo the work you have done.
And every other non LEO who has built THEIR HALF of the bridge will eventually meet you. Nobody should have to build the whole damn bridge.
THANK YOU!!!
I'm building MY half! Where are my fellow LEO's in the effort???
THANK YOU!!!
I'm building MY half! Where are my fellow LEO's in the effort???
I'm betting most of them are reading this whole thread and are smart enough to not make it worse.
:D
With only a few exceptions the vast majority of this forum is pro LEO and supports the rights of NON LEO citizens everywhere. They know they are all gonna be retired one day and I don't think they want to see anyone they care about lose their rights either.
I'm betting most of them are reading this whole thread and are smart enough to not make it worse.
:D
With only a few exceptions the vast majority of this forum is pro LEO and supports the rights of NON LEO citizens everywhere. They know they are all gonna be retired one day and I don't think they want to see anyone they care about lose their rights either.
Wholeheartedly agree, which is why I can't understand those two that don't recognize this for what it really is? :confused:
The thing I find the most interesting about this conversation is that I am having the exact same conversation with some of my "pro-state-anti-citizen" friends (people you would call "liberal"). These are people that have law degrees. Political science degrees. Journalism degrees... One works for Fox News. One works for the United Nations. Another, a federal judge in a state that will remain unnamed.
All of them don't bat an eye at the question of if a police officer/security professional/federal LEO should have access to "assault weapons". The answer is always, without hesitation "Yes, absolutely".
Every person in question is, or was a resident of NY at one time FYI.
When asked if a civilian should have the same rights, without question they all say "No, absolutely not, we can't trust them."
Let me just put it bluntly: Andrew ****ing Cuomo will be more then happy to stand behind two sheriff deputies that make 36,000 a year, and use them as human shields armed with AR15's and standard capacity magazines to protect his ass in a conflict, but he thumbs his nose at my right to defend my own household using the same technology. That is unconscionable, and an affront to this Nation. So yes, I advocate that he puts his money where his mouth is, and I suggest that EVERY supplier to every LEO in the state only sell items legal under the NY State (Not So) SAFE ACT. Either that, or stop protecting NY State Politicians on my Tax Dollar, and make everyone in Albany go through the same process I have to to get a pistol, own a gun, obtain ammo.
To me, if anyone is creating an "Us vs. Them" reality it is the politicians, and "Pro-State Anti Citizen" members of this society (LEO or not) that are willing to stand behind a poor guy with a gun and a badge (no offense) while also being blatantly unwilling to offer the average citizen the same privilege.
Bloomberg, and Cuomo would both willingly jump behind an NY LEO officer to save their ****ing hyde if shit came to ****, and they would kiss the thirty round mag that saved their life.
F-Trooper05
02-12-13, 23:48
The point still flew over your head. I don't support any gun ban. Also as for the same rules. So you going to be there when I get a shots fired call and have to respond. I doubt it. Its not your responsibility it is the cops however. So the rules are different from the start.
Pat
No, Pat, you don't get it. The police should not be permitted to outgun the populace. It goes against the entire point of the Second Amendment. Period.
And if ALL gun manufacturers followed in the footsteps of LaRue and Olly, you'd see far fewer pictures like this...
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/Obamaguns_zps71a8b444.jpg
Belmont31R
02-12-13, 23:52
Pretty basic. SCOTUS has ruled LEO have no duty to protect people, and an LEO can quit at any time.
Don't like the job? Quit and go do something else....same as everyone else.
No one is forcing you to put yourself in danger, and I am sure if an incident happened at my kids school and I showed up in armor and a had a gun I'd be told to leave at the very least if not detained myself. You shouldn't have a dominance on protection, deny other people the same use of force, and then be shocked some people don't treat you like a special cookie.
Its actually the reverse. Larue and others are banning guns from certain people that are allowed to posses them. So they finished what the anti gun politicians in those states started.
Like I have said before this just punishes the wrong people. The politicians who made these laws won't and don't care. The new rockie patrol officer who can't get a rifle he needs to do his job will. This type of behavior does really push the us vs them mentality.
Pat
I would think this would motivate LE to get involved in the 2A fight. Just because you're a cop, that doesn't make you better than me, your life more valueable than mine, or your safety more important than mine.
I hope that Colt & all the other holy AR manufacturers join Larue & Olympic in their stance.
Punishes the wrong people? GTFO. Don't like being trated "Unfairly"? Scream about it all the way too the top of the food chain! Scream until the blood fills your lungs! Joint the rest of us "Peasants" way down here.:rolleyes:
Alaskapopo
02-13-13, 03:03
I would think this would motivate LE to get involved in the 2A fight. Just because you're a cop, that doesn't make you better than me, your life more valueable than mine, or your safety more important than mine.
I hope that Colt & all the other holy AR manufacturers join Larue & Olympic in their stance.
Punishes the wrong people? GTFO. Don't like being trated "Unfairly"? Scream about it all the way too the top of the food chain! Scream until the blood fills your lungs! Joint the rest of us "Peasants" way down here.:rolleyes:
Peasants really. Spare me the drama.:rolleyes:
Pat
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 03:11
I show absolutely no ill feelings towards LEO.
However, I believe that letting the police be better armed than the population directly goes against the 2A, for all intents and purposes.
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 03:14
Peasants really. Spare me the drama.:rolleyes:
Pat
Aren't we the ones running from everything with pee down our legs?
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 03:16
I show absolutely no ill feelings towards LEO.
However, I believe that letting the police be better armed than the population directly goes against the 2A, for all intents and purposes.
You shouldn't be afraid so much you have to qualify your posts with "Im not anti LEO, but...."
I doubt few people on this site are really truly anti-cop. Don't be a ninny because people want to yell boo at every shadow.
Peasants really. Spare me the drama.:rolleyes:
Pat
I was just going along with your holier than thou attitude.
I show absolutely no ill feelings towards LEO.
However, I believe that letting the police be better armed than the population directly goes against the 2A, for all intents and purposes.
A friend pointed out that when Charles Whitman committed the University of Texas massacre, it was civilians with hunting rifles that provided cover fire for the vastly outgunned police, so they could gain access to the tower itself (along with a lowly citizen who accompanied the cops to the observation deck). It's sad how far our country has devolved since then. These are our communities and the police should be calling upon the able-bodied citizenry when something like this gets out of control, not the other way around. It would be anathema to our Founding Fathers, to have a government that was better armed than the citizenry themselves. :(
I just wish the police would let us know where they stand, officially. I get tired of seeing the Chief or the Commissioner on T.V. making silly statements or standing behind an idiot politician lending support. It seems to EVERYONE that the police in general support this action. If they don't find a way to voice their support for it, how can we believe they do in fact support the 2nd?
In NYS I've only seen the Sheriffs' Assn. voicing any dissagreement with Cuomo. The FOP is only concerened with exempting their retired members from the law. No support for the 2nd and no support for civies. It's getting harder to believe that law enforcement does in fact line up with us. As long as they get treated special the law is fine. I'm sure they will get their exemptions and they will keep their silence.
Belmont31R
02-13-13, 03:46
A friend pointed out that when Charles Whitman committed the University of Texas massacre, it was civilians with hunting rifles that provided cover fire for the vastly outgunned police, so they could gain access to the tower itself (along with a lowly citizen who accompanied the cops to the observation deck). It's sad how far our country has devolved since then. These are our communities and the police should be calling upon the able-bodied citizenry when something like this gets out of control, not the other way around. It would be anathema to our Founding Fathers, to have a government that was better armed than the citizenry themselves. :(
We're just supposed to sit here like lemmings waiting for the gov to take care of everything, and hope we don't get mistakenly shot in the process. Don't complain, though, lest you be labeled as a cop basher. I would certainly be running away with pee down my leg and crying to the closest gov worker about getting rid of the bad man.
I just wish the police would let us know where they stand, officially. I get tired of seeing the Chief or the Commissioner on T.V. making silly statements or standing behind an idiot politician lending support. It seems to EVERYONE that the police in general support this action. If they don't find a way to voice their support for it, how can we believe they do in fact support the 2nd?
In NYS I've only seen the Sheriffs' Assn. voicing any dissagreement with Cuomo. The FOP is only concerened with exempting their retired members from the law. No support for the 2nd and no support for civies. It's getting harder to believe that law enforcement does in fact line up with us. As long as they get treated special the law is fine. I'm sure they will get their exemptions and they will keep their silence.
Which is exactly why the anti's use these tactics. If they can't get LEO acquiescence on principle, they simply buy it with special exemptions. It's beyond repugnant.
First they came for the civilians,
and I didn't speak out because I was a LEO.
And so on and so forth... :(
Which is exactly why the anti's use these tactics. If they can't get LEO acquiescence on principle, they simply buy it with special exemptions. It's beyond repugnant.
First they came for the civilians,
and I didn't speak out because I was a LEO.
And so on and so forth... :(
Is their no "Cops for the 2nd" society out there?
alienb1212
02-13-13, 05:55
Is their no "Cops for the 2nd" society out there?
Oathkeepers.
Its actually the reverse. Larue and others are banning guns from certain people that are allowed to posses them. So they finished what the anti gun politicians in those states started.
Like I have said before this just punishes the wrong people. The politicians who made these laws won't and don't care. The new rockie patrol officer who can't get a rifle he needs to do his job will. This type of behavior does really push the us vs them mentality.
Pat
What it does is forces the lazy and apathetic among "you" to realize the seriousness of the hour and increases the likelihood you'll join the rest of your fellow citizens to stand against the political nonsense you might otherwise just go along with or even enforce.
We're just supposed to sit here like lemmings waiting for the gov to take care of everything, and hope we don't get mistakenly shot in the process. Don't complain, though, lest you be labeled as a cop basher. I would certainly be running away with pee down my leg and crying to the closest gov worker about getting rid of the bad man.
We've long been conditioned this way. Look at almost every tv show and movie. What happens when there is a problem? Someone from the govt shows up to fix it. Most people, even those who consider themselves conservative have been so conditioned that we need big govt. If we didn't have it, we wouldn't have roads, schools, police, fire, etc.
What it does is forces the lazy and apathetic among "you" to realize the seriousness of the hour and increases the likelihood you'll join the rest of your fellow citizens to stand against the political nonsense you might otherwise just go along with or even enforce.
More importantly, the pressure needs to fall on the unions and organizations of officers who are really leftist groups. Hey LEO, you don't like what's going on? Do some about it. Change the leadership of your local union or the FOP. Don't let continue to push the leftist agenda in your name. Should be easy right? We're told daily that the overwhelming number of LEO are pro 2A.
Is their no "Cops for the 2nd" society out there?
Check out "Law Enforcement Against Gun Control" on Facebook.
So Special Olympic Arms is HELPING the anti gun movement by ensuring the Tyranny States don't get Garbage Guns from OLY?
I like how the putz Brain whatever signs the stupid notice "President"... like it's a REAL company...
I've read descriptions of Oly Arms facility... it looks like Sanford and Son.
DPMS did a good job also.
https://www.facebook.com/#!/DPMSinc?fref=ts
Please watch as Adam Ballard, Product Manager for DPMS — home to 115 employees, 37 of us who are veterans —, testifies in front of the Minnesota Public Safety and Policy Committee against HF421; a bill designed to ban modern sporting rifles (so-called "assault weapons"). This bill would close our doors, put a great number of hard-working Americans out of work and infringe upon the rights of millions of lawful gun owners in Minnesota.
For once something good can be said in the same line as Olympic Arms.
Indeed. At least they have shown some sack in all this. Now if they would just make a high quality BCG :D
I hope that Colt & all the other holy AR manufacturers join Larue & Olympic in their stance.
Colt wouldn't dare. Though I like Colt, I think they are more concerned with govy contracts than the 2A.
Singlestack Wonder
02-13-13, 09:09
No, Pat, you don't get it. The police should not be permitted to outgun the populace. It goes against the entire point of the Second Amendment. Period.
And if ALL gun manufacturers followed in the footsteps of LaRue and Olly, you'd see far fewer pictures like this...
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/Obamaguns_zps71a8b444.jpg
Very well stated and to the point.
Oathkeepers.
Thanks. I've heard of the Oathkeepers before first time I went to their sight though. Found a good video of pissed off New Yorkers.
Check out "Law Enforcement Against Gun Control" on Facebook.
This is what I was hoping to see. The police must know how important their voice is in this thing. If they really are on our side I think they could be the most powerful voice out here.
We're just supposed to sit here like lemmings waiting for the gov to take care of everything, and hope we don't get mistakenly shot in the process. Don't complain, though, lest you be labeled as a cop basher. I would certainly be running away with pee down my leg and crying to the closest gov worker about getting rid of the bad man.
This is something that has been bothering me for a long time. I was one of those that were left "inside" during the L.A. Riots. There were no cops coming to my rescue with any size mags at all.
Nowadays we are not ALLOWED to defend ourselves or others. Many of "us" have been charged with a crime or been sent to prison for defending ourselves.
Pat, you touched on this during the "home invasion" scenario mentioned earlier in this thread. You questioned how what size mags I would like the police to have when they arrived to rescue me. This is absurd. The cops won't be called until the action is all over. My cell phone dialing finger will be busy operating my trigger until all the bad guys are down. It won't matter how many rounds are in the cops mags when they come to put up the crime scene tape and fill out their government forms, long after the action is over. Same goes for just about any other scenario too.
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, will turn this anti-2A non-sense around faster than 1000s of LEOs in the streets demanding the attack on the 2A be stopped. I wanna see uniformed cops marching in the streets WITH the citizens they are sworn to serve, shoulder to shoulder, all in the same boat, all after the same thing. Heartwarming picture, isn't it? Much better picture than NY LEOs with 30 round ARs while citizens only get six shooters or 1911s. Much better picture than dozens of uniformed officers standing behind our Communist In Chief while he spews forth more anti-gun rhetoric, like he did last night...
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 10:06
Much better picture than dozens of uniformed officers standing behind our Communist In Chief while he spews forth more anti-gun rhetoric, like he did last night...
Let's not forget that the Marines at his inaugeration didn't get to even have bolts in those M1 Garands.
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, will turn this anti-2A non-sense around faster than 1000s of LEOs in the streets demanding the attack on the 2A be stopped. I wanna see uniformed cops marching in the streets WITH the citizens they are sworn to serve, shoulder to shoulder, all in the same boat, all after the same thing. Heartwarming picture, isn't it? Much better picture than NY LEOs with 30 round ARs while citizens only get six shooters or 1911s. Much better picture than dozens of uniformed officers standing behind our Communist In Chief while he spews forth more anti-gun rhetoric, like he did last night...
Cant argue with that.
Let's not forget that the Marines at his inaugeration didn't get to even have bolts in those M1 Garands.
Bolts and/or firing pins removed around POTUS has been SOP well before our current President.
Is their no "Cops for the 2nd" society out there?
As stated, Oathkeepers.
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 11:43
Bolts and/or firing pins removed around POTUS has been SOP well before our current President.
Really? I thought they were allowed.
Nevermind. I retract that statement.
Uhh no! I don't want a disarmed populace. Most cops are not anti gun as you probably know being one yourself. I also agree cops need to stand together in opposition to these gun laws. However what we don't agree on is screwing over our brothers and sisters who have the poor luck of having to work in banned states. Their life is worth the same as mine and yours and their communities deserve the same protection. So fight the fight at the right level. Go after the politicians and fight the law on that level. This is just a diversion that is going to do no good and a lot of harm.
Pat
No. We're asking them to fight with us or stand against us. If they don't have the sack to be an Oathkeeper to stand up to tyranny and vocally fight a state that unconstitutionally restricts ALL citizens rights, including them if they were to lose their job, then I sure don't expect them to protect and serve me if they're not too late. Look, I get it if they want to do as they're told just to keep a job but they shouldn't have a problem when they're told to strip down to seven round magazines either. They shouldn't say to me they don't have a choice but to do their work and provide for their family then tell me in the same breath they demand 30 round magazines and should be on a different level than me.
Not all cops have back up. For 5 hours of my 10 hours shift I am alone and all back up will do is take my statement or call the ME. Yes we have chosen this career and most have done so because they want to help people and serve their community. What a way to reward that desire to serve.
Pat
No. It will weed out the LE who never wanted to protect and serve to begin with because they feel they're too privileged to be treated as an average citizen. So should LE expect a pat on the back before they do their job, just by choosing the profession, or after they put their life in harms way? Because it sounds like you believe the former. Damn, I've been doing it all wrong. I need to go into work with that entitlement attitude and see how long I last.
So in your ideal world, only LE will be armed with 30 round mags...while in the real world anyone will have 30 round mags except law abiding citizens?
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 13:55
So in your ideal world, only LE will be armed with 30 round mags...while in the real world anyone will have 30 round mags except law abiding citizens?
He never said that. He's on our side. Stop your bickering.
He doesn't want to be disarmed so that he can do his job. I disagree with his sentiments that he seems to think LEO need it MORE, because I think he'd think differently if he wasn't an LEO.
But he has NEVER said that civilians should be disarmed.
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 13:59
You shouldn't be afraid so much you have to qualify your posts with "Im not anti LEO, but...."
I doubt few people on this site are really truly anti-cop. Don't be a ninny because people want to yell boo at every shadow.
I'm not afraid, but I don't want my post taken out of context.
I understand what you're getting at though, Belmont.
Alaskapopo
02-13-13, 13:59
So in your ideal world, only LE will be armed with 30 round mags...while in the real world anyone will have 30 round mags except law abiding citizens?
Show me where in this thread I said law abiding citizens should not have 30 round mags? You won't find it because I never said that. Say what you want but stop putting words in other peoples mouths. I have explained how retarded it is to punish cops for what your elected representatives past as a law so many times I am sick of it. I am also sick of people saying I am anti gun because of this stance. I understand peoples anger and outrage and I feel the same. But there are far more productive ways to fight this than try to screw others over who did not get screwed over in the first pass. I guess that saying misery loves company is very true. Whats next disarming our military as well?
Pat
Point taken Magic...he just feels they should be able to keep an exception...as if he's putting words in our mouths that we'd rather put LE lives in danger.
And somehow everyone knew he'd be here in a second to provide his counter-point.
Show me where in this thread I said law abiding citizens should not have 30 round mags? You won't find it because I never said that. Say what you want but stop putting words in other peoples mouths. I have explained how retarded it is to punish cops for what your elected representatives past as a law so many times I am sick of it. I am also sick of people saying I am anti gun because of this stance. I understand peoples anger and outrage and I feel the same. But there are far more productive ways to fight this than try to screw others over who did not get screwed over in the first pass. I guess that saying misery loves company is very true. Whats next disarming our military as well?
Pat
I agree that you've never said that and generally support citizens rights. We simply disagree on support reciprocity. As for saying that I want to disarm and disadvantage fellow officers, nothing could be further from the truth. If that were so, I wouldn't be willing to literally put my personal ammo in in the magazines of officers from another agency: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=124289
Magic_Salad0892
02-13-13, 14:55
Point taken Magic...he just feels they should be able to keep an exception...as if he's putting words in our mouths that we'd rather put LE lives in danger.
And somehow everyone knew he'd be here in a second to provide his counter-point.
You're right. And even I disagree with him. Cops are civilians too. We get 7 rounds, they get 7 rounds. Carry more mags if it bothers you. At least it'd get the laws overturned.
I just don't want it confused that he's anti gun, or wants to see civilians unarmed. He just doesn't want to be disarmed while he does his job.
I also don't want you to think that I was personally attacking you, because I was defending him.
I wasn't, and I've appreciated your civil response.
Alaskapopo
02-13-13, 14:59
I agree that you've never said that and generally support citizens rights. We simply disagree on support reciprocity. As for saying that I want to disarm and disadvantage fellow officers, nothing could be further from the truth. If that were so, I wouldn't be willing to literally put my personal ammo in in the magazines of officers from another agency: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=124289
That is cool. I have been giving some of my buddies my reloaded ammo. (selling it at normal costs.) We all need to focus on what we agree on and not what we disagree on. Divided we fall united we stand is very true.
Pat
Olympic Arms has doubled down, it seems....
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/olympic-arms-draws-another-line-in-sand-tells-fraternal-order-of-police-to-f-off-refuses-advertising/#
From their Facebook page:
Olympic Arms was recently asked to advertise in the FOP Journal; the official magazine of the Fraternal Order of Police. It is well known that the FOP is a staunch supporter of Gun Control, had backed the AWB under Bill Clinton, and supports the current AWB under consideration that was introduced by Diane Feinstein. The FOP was actually accredited as being one of the sources that helped prepare the language of Gun Control suggestions that were forwarded by Vice President Biden. Below is a copy of our response to the FOP Journal:
Please forward this email to every major principal in your organization.
AS:
1. The Fraternal Order of Police is on Congressional Record as having been a major supporter of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban.
a. http://books.google.com/books?id=ZGb80RBLHxcC&pg=PA18184&lpg=PA18184&dq=FOP+Supports+Assault+WEapons+Ban&source=bl&ots=Yiafz1Lbgv&sig=_9DLM1ZuC79jKiqf2vWMtnhf1d4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zBEVUer_L-jriwL3oYGACQ&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=FOP%20Supports%20Assault%20WEapons%20Ban&f=false
2. As a matter of fact and record, the FOP is accredited with assisting VP Biden in formulating the language of the newly proposed ban:
a. http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012/12/biden-no-reason-assault-weapons-ban-shouldnt-clear-152546.html
3. Additionally, as a matter of fact and public record, the FOP is in support of the newly recommended Assault Weapons Ban introduced by Senator Feinstein.
a. FOP representatives were actually standing on the Stage during the presentation as a sign of "support".
THEREFORE:
Olympic Arms, Inc, manufacturers of AR15 type firearms, firearms that these legislators would call "Assault Weapons", will not be supporting in any way, shape, form or fashion, The Fraternal Order of Police, any organization that represents, supports, takes advertising dollars from, spends advertising dollars with, is in anyway related to, any individual who is a card carrying member of, or any person or entity in any way associated with the Fraternal Order of Police. Period.
Henceforth;
• Be assured that Olympic Arms will not rest in its efforts to educate our customers, fans and followers the extent of the hypocrisy committed by the FOP and FOP Journal (fighting to outlaw the firearms produced by the very companies they now solicit for advertising dollars…). You can also be certain that we continue to make every effort to properly educate the firearms consumer in general, of the same.
• Additionally, we will make continued efforts at assure that ALL firearms manufacturers are aware of the FOP's support to strip Constitutional Rights from Americans, and their support of further unconstitutional gun control legislation.
• We pledge to inform all of our customers the lengths that the FOP and associated FOP affiliates by proxy (which includes all your advertisers)are willing to go to in order to strip the American Citizen of their Constitutional Rights, while at the same time writing in exemptions to the same legislation to ensure that their members maintain those same rights they would have stripped from others.
• Your actions are the actions of a rogue organization supporting tyranny, not an organization sworn to uphold the laws of the land, to protect, serve and defend their constituencies.
Let it be know, that your actions are reprehensible and shameful.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/12/vp-biden-says-he-needs-cops-help-to-reinstate-assault-weapons-ban-and-much-more/
http://www.guncite.com/aswpolice.html
Sincerely,
Thomas A. Spithaler
Sales & Marketing Dir.
Olympic Arms, Inc.
PA PATRIOT
02-13-13, 17:06
As to the FOP (Which ever lodge or state office it maybe) supporting any current anti gun measures I have not seen or heard anything either by e-mail, publications or representatives at districts talking about the issue.
Normally I would see something in the state or national publications and have seen nothing to date.
Not saying that the information is false but I have not seen anything in writing union wise just yet to collaborate it.
As to the FOP (Which ever lodge or state office it maybe) supporting any current anti gun measures I have not seen or heard anything either by e-mail, publications or representatives at districts talking about the issue.
Normally I would see something in the state or national publications and have seen nothing to date.
Not saying that the information is false but I have not seen anything in writing union wise just yet to collaborate it.
FOP has always been anti gun. Where have you been?
Olympic Arms has doubled down, it seems....
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/olympic-arms-draws-another-line-in-sand-tells-fraternal-order-of-police-to-f-off-refuses-advertising/#
From their Facebook page:
I don't do facebook, so I wouldn't have been able to see this. Thank you for posting.
After reading this, I'll say again, Thank you Olympic Arms.
Cops being out gunned and dying never serves the greater good.
Neither do wrongfully disarmed civilians who are also potentially at risk for being out gunned or getting killed.
I always tell people that citizens should have those same kinds of guns that the police does for the same exact reason. Those kinds of guns are the best suited at protecting one's self.
PA PATRIOT
02-13-13, 21:48
FOP has always been anti gun. Where have you been?
Out keeping my little piece of America safe Scotty, what else would I be doing?
As I have previously stated I have yet to see anything in the state or national FOP publications which dictates what the current position of the national FOP is on the subject. The FOP does not take national votes to adopt political positions so I will make inquiries on the subject.
Out keeping my little piece of America safe Scotty, what else would I be doing?
As I have previously stated I have yet to see anything in the state or national FOP publications which dictates what the current position of the national FOP is on the subject. The FOP does not take national votes to adopt political positions so I will make inquiries on the subject.
Just for clarification, are you saying the links in the Olympic Arms letter showing FOP involvement in the '94 AWB and the current push for AWB are incorrect?
Ned Christiansen
02-14-13, 08:28
FOP unfortunately has a long history of standing alongside politicians while anti-Second Amendment bills are being signed, pretending to represent "police support" of same.
FOP unfortunately has a long history of standing alongside politicians while anti-Second Amendment bills are being signed, pretending to represent "police support" of same.
The problem is that between the FOP and the various Chiefs, Commissioners and other police "pretending" to represent police they end up representing the only public voice the police offer.
brickboy240
02-14-13, 14:44
Do police agencies actually BUY Olympic ARs for their officers?
If so...they must not like their guys very much! Probably give them Taurus pistols, too.
LOL
-brickboy240
Way to go OLY. Alienating the average street cop that is on the same side as the 2nd amendment fight as the 2nd amendment supporting civilian is a great idea.... if you want to further divide the two and stir up more "US vs THEM" stupidity. Or just try to sell more crappy rifles.
Anyone who thinks that the street cop has any leverage to make the "True believers" like Obama, Bloomberg, Rahm, Quinn, Durbin, etc. see the light are living a fantasy. They despise the 2nd amendment as much as we all love it.
ETA: I would wager that more state & local LE agencies inside of ban states have bought far more cheap-ass Olympic Arms ARs to issue their officers than they have purchased LaRue ARs. As a matter of fact I highly doubt any ban state agencies (state or local) have purchased any LaRue ARs as department issued patrol rifles. I know of many individual officers who have purchased rifles directly from LaRue so the individual officer is the only one who will truly be affected by all of this symbolic posturing.
Anyone who thinks that the street cop has any leverage to make the "True believers" like Obama, Bloomberg, Rahm, Quinn, Durbin, etc. see the light are living a fantasy. They despise the 2nd amendment as much as we all love it.
Jesus Christ himself couldn't convert Obama, Bloomberg and company. I do believe a unified pro 2A stance from police could dispel the myth that police want these bans in place. It would go along way towards garnering much needed public support. Saving the lives of police officers is one of the reasons often touted by antis. Bloomberg himself has said it a million times, usually in front of a collection of officers.
Way to go OLY. Alienating the average street cop that is on the same side as the 2nd amendment fight as the 2nd amendment supporting civilian is a great idea.... if you want to further divide the two and stir up more "US vs THEM" stupidity. Or just try to sell more crappy rifles.
Anyone who thinks that the street cop has any leverage to make the "True believers" like Obama, Bloomberg, Rahm, Quinn, Durbin, etc. see the light are living a fantasy. They despise the 2nd amendment as much as we all love it.
ETA: I would wager that more state & local LE agencies inside of ban states have bought far more cheap-ass Olympic Arms ARs to issue their officers than they have purchased LaRue ARs. As a matter of fact I highly doubt any ban state agencies (state or local) have purchased any LaRue ARs as department issued patrol rifles. I know of many individual officers who have purchased rifles directly from LaRue so the individual officer is the only one who will truly be affected by all of this symbolic posturing.
To correct you, it's the major urban area politicians, their CLEO lapdogs and the large, urban area, union heavy officer orgainzations who have made it "US vs THEM". These manufacturers are simply pointing out to them that they are in fact, not at all special when it comes to firearms. :(
To correct you, it's the major urban area politicians, their CLEO lapdogs and the large, urban area, union heavy officer orgainzations who have made it "US vs THEM". These manufacturers are simply pointing out to them that they are in fact, not at all special when it comes to firearms. :(
And now everyone is playing right into their hands with all this meaningless posturing which will do nothing to change the minds of those you mentioned and only affect the average street cop who is on your side by a strong majority and further drive the wedge between us.
But yeah, thanks for the correction!
Alaskapopo
02-14-13, 15:47
And now everyone is playing right into their hands with all this meaningless posturing which will do nothing to change the minds of those you mentioned and only affect the average street cop who is on your side by a strong majority and further drive the wedge between us.
But yeah, thanks for the correction!
Well said! All this effort for in fighting could be better served trying to get the message out there to stop future anti gun legislation and to fight the lesiglation that was recently passed in the courts.
Pat
And now everyone is playing right into their hands with all this meaningless posturing which will do nothing to change the minds of those you mentioned and only affect the average street cop who is on your side by a strong majority and further drive the wedge between us.
But yeah, thanks for the correction!
If you let it drive a wedge between you and your fellow citizens, that's on YOU! :(
Alaskapopo
02-14-13, 16:11
If you let it drive a wedge between you and your fellow citizens, that's on YOU! :(
Plenty of blame to go around on the wedge driving.
Pat
If you let it drive a wedge between you and your fellow citizens, that's on YOU! :(
Seriously dude? Im not out there cheerleading every time some gun manufacturer puts out a meaningless press release to try and sell more gun that does absolutely nothing to fight for the 2nd amendment. You might be, but not me.
I have been doing my part to interact with the good law abiding citizens who I serve. I encourage every single one of them to get involved in this battle.
Symbolism can be different than posturing.
Seriously dude? Im not out there cheerleading every time some gun manufacturer puts out a meaningless press release to try and sell more gun that does absolutely nothing to fight for the 2nd amendment. You might be, but not me.
I have been doing my part to interact with the good law abiding citizens who I serve. I encourage every single one of them to get involved in this battle.
I get that you and others are in the fight so to speak. It just seems to me that you're willing to accept special dispensation for LEO's in these anti-gun locations if that's all you can get. That IMO, is not enough. If you're a LEO and upset about this, some might view your support as merely symbolic as well? :confused:
Seriously dude? Im not out there cheerleading every time some gun manufacturer puts out a meaningless press release to try and sell more gun that does absolutely nothing to fight for the 2nd amendment. You might be, but not me.
I have been doing my part to interact with the good law abiding citizens who I serve. I encourage every single one of them to get involved in this battle.
You aren't going to win here. In this circumstance GTG is what we need all police officers to be regardless of any short term negative inter-dept ramifications.
If it were the case then this discussion would be a figment of someone's imagination and the proposed increased restrictions would socially be deemed unrealistic.
Edit: Need to stop typing from the damn phone. Plus it makes this place too accessible.
threeheadeddog
02-14-13, 16:51
I think that most people really get this issue confused.
Nobody opposes LEO having the tools they need. Nobody supports putting LEO in a position that will cost them their lives. What is opposed is a country with A CLASS SYSTEM.
This is very much about EQUALITY.
You aren't going to win here. In this circumstance GTG is what we need all police officers to be regardles of any short term negative inter-dept ramifications.
If it were the case then this discussion would be a figment of someone's imagination and the proposed increased restrictions would socially be deemed unrealistic.
I fail to see what that has to do with police being able to buy tools.To prove they support the 2A they should go without? Or better yet use 5 round mags to prove they are "really" committed?
I fail to see what that has to do with police being able to buy tools.To prove they support the 2A they should go without? Or better yet use 5 round mags to prove they are "really" committed?
If all local and state governments knew that they could not obtain a certain level of firepower as a result of excessive restrictions on the citizenry then the current proposed restrictions would be deemed less than viable or even unthinkable.
If all local and state governments knew that they could not obtain a certain level of firepower as a result of excessive restrictions on the citizenry then the current proposed restrictions would be deemed less than viable or otherwise unthinkable.
I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. I understand the concept I just think the blame is misplaced. Policy makers don't carry AR's .
I fail to see what that has to do with police being able to buy tools.To prove they support the 2A they should go without? Or better yet use 5 round mags to prove they are "really" committed?
See post #150.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2422/3777084698_a7ef4bf328_z.jpg
I think that most people really get this issue confused.
Nobody opposes LEO having the tools they need. Nobody supports putting LEO in a position that will cost them their lives. What is opposed is a country with A CLASS SYSTEM.
This is very much about EQUALITY.
+1....
I understand the concept I just think the blame is misplaced. Policy makers don't carry AR's .
I haven't seen anyone misplace the blame. We all know its the socialists in our government who are to blame. No one is blaming the police. No one is blaming the law-abiding citizens.
Policy makers don't carry ARs, but policy makers will be forced to listen if their ENTIRE police force comes banging down their door along WITH the rest of the population who doesn't like the laws that they are inflicting upon we the people. As it stands now the police force will get to keep their ARs and 30 round mags, and will use them to protect these despicable politicians from US. These despots pass these laws and then stand behind the police. Imagine if the police turned around, faced these politicians, and said, "NOPE!, Not happening."
To paraphrase: All that needs to happen for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing. In this case the "good men" would be the cops who get the special privilege of keeping and using certain guns, while the rest of us suffer. If they have to fight crime with the same ridiculous tools that the government is restricting the rest of us to, they will not stand by and do nothing in the face of this evil. They will fight it as hard, or harder, than the "common" man, and they will have A LOT more pull than the "common man" in this fight.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-14-13, 22:05
Colorado LE Chief's Assc backed the proposed magazine ban. As a CO LEO, I fully support EVERY single gun company NEVER again selling to any CO LEO again. I was a citizen in the military, I am a citizen in LE, and all citizens are held to the same standards!
Plenty of blame to go around on the wedge driving.
Pat
How many favors does private organizations do for various LE as far as training? The NRA, Gunsite, USTC, etc? They do alot. Give away free training etc.
When was the last time the FOP did anything for private citizens?
This is part of building YOUR HALF of the bridge Pat.
Alaskapopo
02-14-13, 23:29
How many favors does private organizations do for various LE as far as training? The NRA, Gunsite, USTC, etc? They do alot. Give away free training etc.
When was the last time the FOP did anything for private citizens?
This is part of building YOUR HALF of the bridge Pat.
My side of bridge building is hosting a citizens police academy and taking them to the range and letting them shoot our guns and ammo. Do the same thing for the Junior Police Academy high school class. I also host matches and plan to do more.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-14-13, 23:32
Colorado LE Chief's Assc backed the proposed magazine ban. As a CO LEO, I fully support EVERY single gun company NEVER again selling to any CO LEO again. I was a citizen in the military, I am a citizen in LE, and all citizens are held to the same standards!
I have come to the conclusion that to be promoted to a chief you need to lose most of your backbone and common sense. Its not right to judge cops based on the decisions of their chiefs who are generally political animals.
Pat
I haven't seen anyone misplace the blame. We all know its the socialists in our government who are to blame. No one is blaming the police. No one is blaming the law-abiding citizens.
Policy makers don't carry ARs, but policy makers will be forced to listen if their ENTIRE police force comes banging down their door along WITH the rest of the population who doesn't like the laws that they are inflicting upon we the people. As it stands now the police force will get to keep their ARs and 30 round mags, and will use them to protect these despicable politicians from US. These despots pass these laws and then stand behind the police. Imagine if the police turned around, faced these politicians, and said, "NOPE!, Not happening."
To paraphrase: All that needs to happen for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing. In this case the "good men" would be the cops who get the special privilege of keeping and using certain guns, while the rest of us suffer. If they have to fight crime with the same ridiculous tools that the government is restricting the rest of us to, they will not stand by and do nothing in the face of this evil. They will fight it as hard, or harder, than the "common" man, and they will have A LOT more pull than the "common man" in this fight.
I can't dipute anything you said. I just get the impression that alot of blame is being unfairly placed on the patrol officer that has nothing to do with being put into a different class as the rest of us. I have been saying all along that if the police came out publicly against these stupid ass laws it would be possibly the most powerful voice against the bans. I just feel this isn't the way to "call them out". At this point though, **** it it's worth a try.
My side of bridge building is hosting a citizens police academy and taking them to the range and letting them shoot our guns and ammo. Do the same thing for the Junior Police Academy high school class. I also host matches and plan to do more.
Pat
Good for you.
Quite honestly when I was growing up I shot with a LOT of cops and it was the basis for a very favorable opinion of LE. This is exactly what is needed, more POSITIVE interaction.
Alaskapopo
02-15-13, 00:52
Good for you.
Quite honestly when I was growing up I shot with a LOT of cops and it was the basis for a very favorable opinion of LE. This is exactly what is needed, more POSITIVE interaction.
It is a lot of fun. I really believe in the citizens police academy program as we get to share with the community what we do so they can have a better understanding of things. So far the last 4 years we have done it all the feedback has been positive. I teach the firearms portion, the drug investigation portion and the criminal law portion. Its a blast.
Pat
My side of bridge building is hosting a citizens police academy and taking them to the range and letting them shoot our guns and ammo. Do the same thing for the Junior Police Academy high school class. I also host matches and plan to do more.
Pat
I wasn't asking about you personally.
I was asking on a national level.
I understand why city, state, and federal brass won't speak out against forced registration/confiscation because they either don't want to lose their jobs or they just want to be yes men. They know the city council, mayors, governors, or federal superiors may hand them their ass if they disobey. County brass can get away with it since they're elected. So IF LEOs don't want to lose their job, even if they don't believe in the orders they're following, sooner than later they'll be put in the position to do as they're told and make arrests. How does that make them any different than the officers that gladly follow their orders?
If you've decided to uphold the Constitution and not follow orders, is it not a question of if but when you'll possibly lose your job? I would understand if you don't want to out yourself now and be put in that position before the SHTF, but when will the time come when you guys let us know (and how you'll let us know) you've chosen sides and are with us not against us? We see just a handful of county sheriffs that say they won't arrest us so it's a pretty grim situation ahead versus the city, state, and federal LE kicking down our doors. Only a small number of LE have chosen to out themselves as oathkeepers so can you see why people are so upset that you don't really have our backs that we know of? Do your superiors believe if you defy them and they fire you all they can just pick up well trained LEOs right of the street? How many of you would it take to speak out at once, right now, to cause a panic so big all over the country that law makers would have no choice but to reconsider the unconstitutional laws?
The people of NY (with CA, CO, CT, NJ, and WA maybe soon to follow) know they've already fought the new laws and lost. Court challenges could take years and how successful will they be? How many guns will be illegally confiscated and how long will it take to fight to get those back? How does LE not see that standing with us now could make a much bigger difference sooner than later instead of just telling us we need to put more pressure on our public officials?
CarlosDJackal
02-15-13, 15:23
They are doing this to increase revenue. Its a giant political statement and there is a large portion of the population that is buying into it and will buy more guns and gear from these companies. So they can't tell me they are going to lose money. As for the greater good. Cops being out gunned and dying never serves the greater good.
Pat
Talk about sour elitist grapes. How can any of these companies increase their revenue when they cannot even keep up with current demand despite the increase of their manufacturing capacity to or nearly 100%?
As a former LEO (9-years) and someone who is in the process of applying to another agency I see no issue with what Olympic Arms or Larue Tactical is doing. I would buy another hundred PMags if it would help MagPul move out of Colorado and declare that whole state a "no sale zone" because of the laws their are currently trying to pass (no manufacturing, selling or possession of magazines that hold more than 10-rounds).
If NY is stupid enough to pass laws that can easily be used entrap manufacturers and dealers as felons; then they are screwing their own Officers. If I were an LEO in any of those kommunist states (NY, NJ, MN, CT, MD, CA, IL, MI, etc.) I would certainly move because I could not arrest any law-abiding citizen who happen to be in possession of a rifle that has a bayonet lug, folding stock, pistol grip or a "high-capacity" magazine.
All I can say is shame on you for putting yourself above the law-abiding people just because you carry a badge and despite being sworn to UPHOLD AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION...
Alaskapopo
02-15-13, 15:32
Talk about sour elitist grapes. How can any of these companies increase their revenue when they cannot even keep up with current demand despite the increase of their manufacturing capacity to or nearly 100%?
As a former LEO (9-years) and someone who is in the process of applying to another agency I see no issue with what Olympic Arms or Larue Tactical is doing. I would buy another hundred PMags if it would help MagPul move out of Colorado and declare that whole state a "no sale zone" because of the laws their are currently trying to pass (no manufacturing, selling or possession of magazines that hold more than 10-rounds).
If NY is stupid enough to pass laws that can easily be used entrap manufacturers and dealers as felons; then they are screwing their own Officers. If I were an LEO in any of those kommunist states (NY, NJ, MN, CT, MD, CA, IL, MI, etc.) I would certainly move because I could not arrest any law-abiding citizen who happen to be in possession of a rifle that has a bayonet lug, folding stock, pistol grip or a "high-capacity" magazine.
All I can say is shame on you for putting yourself above the law-abiding people just because you carry a badge and despite being sworn to UPHOLD AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION...
Lets be correct NY did not screw its officers Larue and other companies are trying to do that. NY screwed its citizens. No cop here is putting themselves above anyone else. Just pointing out screwing the cops as a retaliation for something the politicians did is retarded.
Pat
Lets be correct NY did not screw its officers Larue and other companies are trying to do that. NY screwed its citizens. No cop here is putting themselves above anyone else. Just pointing out screwing the cops as a retaliation for something the politicians did is retarded.
Pat
How many times do we have to point out that those cops ARE citizens, no more, no less? :confused:
When NYS decided to place their armed enforcers above the citizens they police, they DID screw those cops. They just hadn't been made aware of it yet.
Alaskapopo
02-15-13, 18:02
How many times do we have to point out that those cops ARE citizens, no more, no less? :confused:
When NYS decided to place their armed enforcers above the citizens they police, they DID screw those cops. They just hadn't been made aware of it yet.
So are soldiers that drive M1 Abrams tanks and pilots that fly F-22 Raptors. Cops have a job to do and these are tools of the trade. They are not simply for bump firing at tin cans at the local gravel pit for us. Taking guns away from cops makes about as much sense as disarming our military. Bad politics does not mean companies should start bad policies in retaliation. Furthermore there will still be good companies supplying cops so I am not overly worried about it. Its just is an illustration of how petty, stupid and counter productive some people can be. 2nd amendment supporters need everyone they can get in their camp and allienating cops or any part of the shooting community is lunacy.
Pat
So are soldiers that drive M1 Abrams tanks and pilots that fly F-22 Raptors. Cops have a job to do and these are tools of the trade. They are not simply for bump firing at tin cans at the local gravel pit for us. Taking guns away from cops makes about as much sense as disarming our military. Bad politics does not mean companies should start bad policies in retaliation. Furthermore there will still be good companies supplying cops so I am not overly worried about it. Its just is an illustration of how petty, stupid and counter productive some people can be. 2nd amendment supporters need everyone they can get in their camp and allienating cops or any part of the shooting community is lunacy.
Pat
Pretty sure he meant to say civilians, which is what all LEOs are. And if you aren't sure about that, ask any Military Police officer and he will explain it to you.
I hope you can at least understand the motivations of companies like LaRue even if you don't happen to agree with their approach.
Bottom line is you believe an occupation in law enforcement entitles you to an exemption to the laws that would apply to all other citizens of a state with an AW ban. This is because you believe that since your occupation is related to defending the public you should ALWAYS have the tools needed to do that job most effectively.
But by the same token, that same public believes that THEY are just as entitled to those tools as they are most likely to be the actual "first responder" to a threat of violence against them and they feel just as strongly as you about ALWAYS being able to have to tools needed to most effectively defend their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
There was a time when police officers were NOT permitted to be armed with the same weapons that an ordinary citizen could carry. This is why special units like S.W.A.T. were created to deal with those special circumstances where a S&W "patrolman" revolver and pump shotgun were not sufficient to deal with the threats they may encounter.
Now we have the reverse where cops in CA can trunk a select fire M-16 and the average citizen cannot own an AR-15 rifle.
If you object to one scenario, you should object to the other.
I think it's unfortunate the LEOs in NY may suffer some actual burdens as manufacturers refuse to do business with their state. But this simply puts them in the same boat as all the other NY citizens who have been similarly disarmed by their government representatives. All civilians are being victimized by these laws.
PA PATRIOT
02-15-13, 20:26
This whole thread is really DOA as the states will not restrict active law enforcement officers of equipment they need for duty use. Plain and simple, End of story.
If a few companies wish not to sell to L/E in certain states due to AWB's then so be it as there will be plenty of other retailers who will gladly fill the gap and accept the equipment orders.
As it appears AWB state's have a greater trust in there law enforcement personal then the general population to the point they allow a special dispensation on ownership of certain firearms and magazines. If you disagree with this then make your votes be heard and have pro 2A politicians elected to junk the AWB were it is fair for all to own these types of weapons.
But so far all I'M hearing is bitching that the Po-Po has better toys and no one is focusing on the reason this occurred. Its the voters who elected the politicians who passed these AWB's not the police everyone is bitching about.
If you noticed the NRA is backing the police on just about every issue as they know its not the street cop causing poor endorsements of AWB's but the paid P/C's who are hired and groomed and not elected by the people.
So for the folks who continue to bitch and whine about police in AWB states lets redirect that energy were it will do the most good with supporting Pro 2A Officers and helping with educating voters to vote for pro 2A candidates.
If your not helping do this then your just another part of the problem.
But so far all I'M hearing is bitching that the Po-Po has better toys and no one is focusing on the reason this occurred. Its the voters who elected the politicians who passed these AWB's not the police everyone is bitching about.
Well I'm certainly not making that complain. As a general rule "I" have better toys that what can be found in most patrol cars. I also think "most" here can understand both sides even if they can't endorse both positions.
Sadly the elect "pro 2A" politicians really isn't a viable option as places like NY, CA, DC and MA are predominantly anti gun which is how they got those laws to begin with. Gun owning citizens in those states are as hopelessly outnumbered as the LAPD was during the King riots.
EVERYONE, regardless of occupation, who cares about gun rights should leave those states if they can. Just because you might be LE today doesn't guarantee you will be LE tomorrow and suddenly you will fine yourself disarmed if you live in such a state.
Additionally, "ban states" tend to be the biggest shitholes regarding crime. I wouldn't want to be working LE in such places.
Alaskapopo
02-15-13, 21:04
Pretty sure he meant to say civilians, which is what all LEOs are. And if you aren't sure about that, ask any Military Police officer and he will explain it to you.
I hope you can at least understand the motivations of companies like LaRue even if you don't happen to agree with their approach.
Bottom line is you believe an occupation in law enforcement entitles you to an exemption to the laws that would apply to all other citizens of a state with an AW ban. This is because you believe that since your occupation is related to defending the public you should ALWAYS have the tools needed to do that job most effectively.
But by the same token, that same public believes that THEY are just as entitled to those tools as they are most likely to be the actual "first responder" to a threat of violence against them and they feel just as strongly as you about ALWAYS being able to have to tools needed to most effectively defend their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
There was a time when police officers were NOT permitted to be armed with the same weapons that an ordinary citizen could carry. This is why special units like S.W.A.T. were created to deal with those special circumstances where a S&W "patrolman" revolver and pump shotgun were not sufficient to deal with the threats they may encounter.
Now we have the reverse where cops in CA can trunk a select fire M-16 and the average citizen cannot own an AR-15 rifle.
If you object to one scenario, you should object to the other.
I think it's unfortunate the LEOs in NY may suffer some actual burdens as manufacturers refuse to do business with their state. But this simply puts them in the same boat as all the other NY citizens who have been similarly disarmed by their government representatives. All civilians are being victimized by these laws.
The only thing I feel entitled to is the tools I need to do my job. None of the LEO's on here are saying we support the ban. However all we are saying is the way to fix the ban is not to try to apply the ban to law enforcement who need these tools to do the job and who are in greater risk than the average joe.
Pat
Belmont31R
02-15-13, 21:11
Lets be correct NY did not screw its officers Larue and other companies are trying to do that. NY screwed its citizens. No cop here is putting themselves above anyone else. Just pointing out screwing the cops as a retaliation for something the politicians did is retarded.
Pat
Just like the police officials are screwing the citizens over by standing behind politicians supporting gun/mag bans. Works both ways.
Not all police are created equal. 'Police', as you put it, refers to all police in general. My local LEO is not going before our city council asking for a ban in our city, and thus I fully support them having all the stuff I have access to. When they cross the line from being 'law enforcement' to 'pushing for laws to be passed', then I can no longer support arming them.
Government for the people, by the people. The people are speaking, and thats the way it goes. You guys do your job on our terms not the other way around.
Belmont31R
02-15-13, 21:13
The only thing I feel entitled to is the tools I need to do my job. None of the LEO's on here are saying we support the ban. However all we are saying is the way to fix the ban is not to try to apply the ban to law enforcement who need these tools to do the job and who are in greater risk than the average joe.
Pat
The only thing you are entitled to on your job is what the people tell you you can have on the job. You are a government employee. Quit if you don't like the terms.
Aren't businesses allowed to choose what products to sell and to whom? All that is necessary for business to continue as usual is to overturn the unnecessary restrictions placed on the private citizens. LEOs are citizens that do a job that requires weapons and ammunition for personal protection. They already have that. Come time for replacement and restocking, if they can't get either through agency channels, highly unlikely though, I guess they'll just have to do what we the private citizens have been doing. Buy it on the open market. Not convenient or efficient, but doable. We've been doing it for how long now?
Cagemonkey
02-15-13, 21:22
The only thing I feel entitled to is the tools I need to do my job. None of the LEO's on here are saying we support the ban. However all we are saying is the way to fix the ban is not to try to apply the ban to law enforcement who need these tools to do the job and who are in greater risk than the average joe.
PatBack when I was in the Marines, the General Rule was: If it wasn't issued, you don't need it. Any tools you need, your Dept should be able to issue to you and be Dept property.
Back when I was in the Marines, the General Rule was: If it wasn't issued, you don't need it. Any tools you need, your Dept should be able to issue to you and be Dept property.
Ah, so since the only thing my agency issues me is my body armor, uniform and Taser we shouldn't carry pistols either then? Makes sense.
Very few agencies "issue" duty pistols.
Cagemonkey
02-15-13, 21:43
Ah, so since the only thing my agency issues me is my body armor, uniform and Taser we shouldn't carry pistols either then? Makes sense.
Very few agencies "issue" duty pistols.Small items are one thing. I find it amazing that a Dept would not issue you your duty weapon given liability and accountability issues. In my State one needs a License to own and carry firearms. I've heard stories of many LEO's carrying a duty weapon their entire career's only to be denied a License to Carry upon becoming a regular civilian. Remember as long as one is a LEO, one does not need a License for ones duty. This wasn't meant to bash LEO's, I just can't imagine a Dept wouldn't issue a duty weapon. The ability to carry a duty weapon of ones choice is another argument all together.
Ah, so since the only thing my agency issues me is my body armor, uniform and Taser we shouldn't carry pistols either then? Makes sense.
Very few agencies "issue" duty pistols.
Really? I didn't know that, but then how would I? I'm not in LE. You have to buy your own agency approved duty pistol, are you reimbursed for the purchase?
I can't dipute anything you said. I just get the impression that alot of blame is being unfairly placed on the patrol officer that has nothing to do with being put into a different class as the rest of us.
What about all the law abiding gun owners that have nothing to do with being put in a different class and can't stop it?
Lets be correct NY did not screw its officers Larue and other companies are trying to do that. NY screwed its citizens. No cop here is putting themselves above anyone else. Just pointing out screwing the cops as a retaliation for something the politicians did is retarded.
Pat
The only entity doing the screwing is the politicians of NY
Belmont31R
02-15-13, 21:58
What about all the law abiding gun owners that have nothing to do with being put in a different class and can't stop it?
Exactly. Millions died for our rights and way of life. 30 legislators and a few crazy people wash that all away? Don't think so.
Ned Christiansen
02-15-13, 21:59
When I said "FOP" I probably should have said "FOP leadership". I'll just damned betcha that FOP membership reflects (my experience with) police opinions in general, where rank and file, regular-guy cops favor gun ownership by law-abiding citizens.
Belmont31R
02-15-13, 21:59
Ah, so since the only thing my agency issues me is my body armor, uniform and Taser we shouldn't carry pistols either then? Makes sense.
Very few agencies "issue" duty pistols.
Find another department if you don't like it. If thats all he people want to pay for...then thats what you get on the job provided for you. You are an employee of the people.
Midway and Brownells need to cut off communist state LE.
That would hit hard. These two vendors don't need the business.
Belmont31R
02-15-13, 22:04
Midway and Brownells need to cut off communist state LE.
That would hit hard. These two vendors don't need the business.
I want to see big hitters like Colt, HK, SW, Remington, ect.
Not small beans...but people who will hit hard.
They are not simply for bump firing at tin cans at the local gravel pit for us.
Here you go again on your elitist attitude.
My $9K SBR that I have set up for my personal defense is not used for bump firing at the local shooting hole. I would imagine many other members on here have similar set ups.
I bet less than 1% of the people on this forum bump fire. They do actually shooting practice.
PA PATRIOT
02-15-13, 22:10
Just like the police officials are screwing the citizens over by standing behind politicians supporting gun/mag bans. Works both ways.
Government for the people, by the people. The people are speaking, and thats the way it goes. You guys do your job on our terms not the other way around.
After reading the above all I can say is UN-"F"-ing believable!
Mayors hire P/C's who share their political views so if a Mayor is anti gun then most likely so is the P/C. While the P/C may support anti 2A views this does not mean that the Police Officers under him in that department support the views of the P/C or have any official voice to suggest other wise.
So your above post basically states since politicians and their P/C's are screwing over citizens with their support of AWB's your way of dealing with the issue is to in turn screw over the innocent Police Officer who may just agree with your stance but to hell with them just because his or her P/C is pro AWB.
This mentality sounds like a five year old who was told he could not have something and is now throwing a tantrum screaming "If I can't have it then no body can" bullshit then goes out to screw over any body they can just because.
As to your " You guys do your job on our terms not the other way around" gave me a good laugh, Really? I must have missed the memo on that one. This just goes to reaffirm my opinion on the five year old mentality theme in this thread.
Belmont31R
02-15-13, 22:16
After reading the above all I can say is UN-"F"-ing believable!
Mayors hire P/C's who share their political views so if a Mayor is anti gun then most likely so is the P/C. While the P/C may support anti 2A views this does not mean that the Police Officers under him in that department support the views of the P/C or have any official voice to suggest other wise.
So your above post basically states since politicians and their P/C's are screwing over citizens with their support of AWB's your way of dealing with the issue is to in turn screw over the innocent Police Officer who may just agree with your stance but to hell with them just because his or her P/C is pro AWB.
This mentality sounds like a five year old who was told he could not have something and is now throwing a tantrum screaming "If I can't have it then no body can" bullshit then goes out to screw over any body they can just because.
As to your " You guys do your job on our terms not the other way around" gave me a good laugh, Really? I must have missed the memo on that one. This just goes to reaffirm my opinion on the five year old mentality theme in this thread.
I quit my first job out of the army, which was installing satellite dishes, because the last job I went to some people were hot boxing the room I was supposed to work in. Called up the boss, and he said I don't care what our customers do. I quit on the spot.
I am sure it is a laughing matter for you. Don't expect me to pay for anti-gun LEO's, and I will vote for people who vote to restrict you guys to our level. I will also spend money with as many companies who hold this policy as I can.
Find another department if you don't like it. If thats all he people want to pay for...then thats what you get on the job provided for you. You are an employee of the people.
That isn't even close to what I was getting at, but since your goal appears to make every street cop out to be a self serving JBT I don't think that makes any difference to you anyway.
Belmont31R
02-15-13, 22:53
That isn't even close to what I was getting at, but since your goal appears to make every street cop out to be a self serving JBT I don't think that makes any difference to you anyway.
I didn't say anything of the sort.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-15-13, 23:14
So are soldiers that drive M1 Abrams tanks and pilots that fly F-22 Raptors. Cops have a job to do and these are tools of the trade. They are not simply for bump firing at tin cans at the local gravel pit for us. Taking guns away from cops makes about as much sense as disarming our military. Bad politics does not mean companies should start bad policies in retaliation. Furthermore there will still be good companies supplying cops so I am not overly worried about it. Its just is an illustration of how petty, stupid and counter productive some people can be. 2nd amendment supporters need everyone they can get in their camp and allienating cops or any part of the shooting community is lunacy.
Pat
And there it is. Cops need those guns, you damn range shooters dont.
It would be interesting to see the number of Officer involved shootings compared to the number of Civilian involved shootings. I haven't a clue, or the number of incidents that an officer had to draw his weapon in response to a deadly force and the number of incidents where a civilian faced a deadly threat regardless of having a weapon to defend themselves.
Magic_Salad0892
02-16-13, 00:46
Cops have a job to do and these are tools of the trade. They are not simply for bump firing at tin cans at the local gravel pit for us.
As a civilian who is not LEO/Military...
They are the tools of the trade for me as well. I live the firearms lifestyle, and that's exactly what it is.
A gun is essential to me, as an excercise of my liberty, and the assurance that I have a good chance of fighting back should anybody attempt to commit a violent crime against me.
As a civilian who is not LEO/Military...
That is a mistake made here constantly....LEO's are civilians.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 03:07
And there it is. Cops need those guns, you damn range shooters dont.
Rights vs need are two different things. We all have a right to own firearms under the 2nd amendment. Cops and soldiers need guns to do their job. A Delta force team member needs his M4 more than I need my patrol rifle. A patrol officer needs his patrol rifle more than tha average joe. This is not a commentary on how I think the laws should be. I have said a million times now I don't support an AWB. However taking guns away from those in the greatest need to prove some political point is stupid and unethical. Instead of fighting over who gets to keep what guns under the current law in some ban states, lets fight to make sure everyone gets their gun rights back.
Pat
Magic_Salad0892
02-16-13, 03:17
That is a mistake made here constantly....LEO's are civilians.
I never said that LEO's weren't civilians. I said that I'm a civilian who is an LEO.
Also.
Pat, while I understand your point. And I agree with you in theory. In practice, you're a civilian too. Which means if CIVILIANS cannot own a rifle. Then police should be forced to make due with pistols, like us.
The police should never be armed better than the populace, by principle.
The police may theoretically NEED a rifle more than us. We NEED a rifle just as much as the police do when somebody tries to attack us.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 03:22
Back when I was in the Marines, the General Rule was: If it wasn't issued, you don't need it. Any tools you need, your Dept should be able to issue to you and be Dept property.
That works great for well funded agencies like the US Marine Corps. However for rural agencies without much money the officer will be providing a lot of his own gear. I carry all my own weapons and most of the gear on my duty belt is personally owned except the radio, taser and pepper spray. With new officers we are issuing them their pistols, rifles and shotguns. But we don't have enough to go around so if they chose to purchase their own off the approved list they are allowed to do so. Plus these manufactures don't want to sell to agencies either. They are not just trying to exclude individual officers.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 03:26
I never said that LEO's weren't civilians. I said that I'm a civilian who is an LEO.
Also.
Pat, while I understand your point. And I agree with you in theory. In practice, you're a civilian too. Which means if CIVILIANS cannot own a rifle. Then police should be forced to make due with pistols, like us.
The police should never be armed better than the populace, by principle.
The police may theoretically NEED a rifle more than us. We NEED a rifle just as much as the police do when somebody tries to attack us.
I respect your opinion but I bet you would feel differently if you had to face down a armed man off his meds at 0200 am. I don't agree with any AWB but officers do need their guns more than the average joe and I am not going to appologize for saying that. Just like a SWAT officers is more likely to need his rifle more often than a patrol officer. Some jobs are more risky than others and different tools are needed. I shoot my rifles far more off duty for fun in three gun. But at work I need those guns. It is true if you are in a self defense situation you will need that rifle as much as I would. But your chances of being in that situation is less than a police officers who is dispatched to those situations. Just like some citizens in high crime neighborhoods are more likely to need their guns more than a citizen living in a rich gated community with low crime. Again I am talking about needs vs rights. We all should have the right to own the guns in quesiton.
Pat
Animal_Mother556
02-16-13, 03:33
I am scared to death to think that the LEOs in my area could possibly be allowed to own "more firepower" than me (they can have high caps and i can't...they can have ARs and I can't). I am totally on board with cops needing these things...but there is no way in hell that you will ever convince me that they need them more than I do. To the LEs that are trying to argue that they do...I don't know if it is elitist...but it sure looks and smells that way.
I take shooting more serioisly than most LEOs do in my area. I also take the responsibility of protecting the public more seriously than the "pursue and punish" cops do. Most of the cops I talk to treat firearm ownership as a perk of the job...not their right as a civillian. I seriously don't see the cops in my area standing up and refusing confiscation.
I would be seeking a home elsewhere if it ever came to that in Iowa. I would hopefully find a state where the cops work FOR me.
Animal_Mother556
02-16-13, 03:36
Could you please stop calling me an average joe?
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 03:37
I quit my first job out of the army, which was installing satellite dishes, because the last job I went to some people were hot boxing the room I was supposed to work in. Called up the boss, and he said I don't care what our customers do. I quit on the spot.
I am sure it is a laughing matter for you. Don't expect me to pay for anti-gun LEO's, and I will vote for people who vote to restrict you guys to our level. I will also spend money with as many companies who hold this policy as I can.
That is your right and I will not spend my money with companies that are anti LEO and who are attempting to put officers lives in greater danger.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 03:40
Could you please stop calling me an average joe?
I am not calling anyone in particular anything. I am talking in general terms. Would you prefer Joe Sixpack?
Pat
Animal_Mother556
02-16-13, 03:43
I am not calling anyone in particular anything. I am talking in general terms. Would you prefer Joe Sixpack?
Pat
Calling us "non-LEO" would be nice...instead of implying that you are "above average" or whatever.
I say rock on to any company that refuses service to LEOs. They have the right to do that. There will always be companies that WILL sell to you guys.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 03:47
It would be interesting to see the number of Officer involved shootings compared to the number of Civilian involved shootings. I haven't a clue, or the number of incidents that an officer had to draw his weapon in response to a deadly force and the number of incidents where a civilian faced a deadly threat regardless of having a weapon to defend themselves.
What you need to look at is how many times the average police officer has to use or threaten to use deadly force vs the number of times the average citizen does. Since there are a lot more people that are not cops than cops there should be more raw numbers of civilian self defense shootings. Lotts work said approximately 2.5 million times per year. However the average officer is going to have to use his sidearm much more often than the average non cop simply because of the nature of the job puts you in these situations.
Pat
Magic_Salad0892
02-16-13, 03:49
I respect your opinion but I bet you would feel differently if you had to face down a armed man off his meds at 0200 am. I don't agree with any AWB but officers do need their guns more than the average joe and I am not going to appologize for saying that. Just like a SWAT officers is more likely to need his rifle more often than a patrol officer. Some jobs are more risky than others and different tools are needed. I shoot my rifles far more off duty for fun in three gun. But at work I need those guns. It is true if you are in a self defense situation you will need that rifle as much as I would. But your chances of being in that situation is less than a police officers who is dispatched to those situations. Just like some citizens in high crime neighborhoods are more likely to need their guns more than a citizen living in a rich gated community with low crime. Again I am talking about needs vs rights. We all should have the right to own the guns in quesiton.
Pat
I understand that, Sir. But my point is that by definition LEO are civilians. So letting LEOs have weapons or equipment that non-LEOs cannot have is unconstitutional, and maybe elitist.
Hell even (in small arms and maybe even small scale explosives terms) having the military have access to firearms that civilians cannot is unconstitutional. I believe that I should be able to own a full auto rifle. If I wanna irresponsibly burn through my money then I should be able to do that. Especially if I wanna shoot it through a belt fed gun.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 03:54
I understand that, Sir. But my point is that by definition LEO are civilians. So letting LEOs have weapons or equipment that non-LEOs cannot have is unconstitutional, and maybe elitist.
Hell even (in small arms and maybe even small scale explosives terms) having the military have access to firearms that civilians cannot is unconstitutional. I believe that I should be able to own a full auto rifle. If I wanna irresponsibly burn through my money then I should be able to do that. Especially if I wanna shoot it through a belt fed gun.
You don't have to call me sir. I am just another guy posting on the net. We seem to agree on the firearms that people should be able to own. What I am saying is that in a less than perfect world like New York where that is not the case it does not make sense to take the guns from the cops too just to spite the politicians. Frankly NYPD cops need their guns more than most police agencies. Its a dangerious area.
Also as a 2nd amendment supporter I don't want to alienate any group from our ranks. That is what the antis are trying to do. They are saying pistols and shotguns are ok but not those evil assault rifles. They are trying to drive a wedge between the various gun owners and now we have pro gun people trying to do the same with the LEO's vs non LEO gun owners.
Pat
Magic_Salad0892
02-16-13, 03:58
You don't have to call me sir. I am just another guy posting on the net. We seem to agree on the firearms that people should be able to own. What I am saying is that in a less than perfect world like New York where that is not the case it does not make sense to take the guns from the cops too just to spite the politicians. Frankly NYPD cops need their guns more than most police agencies. Its a dangerious area.
Which also means that civilians need guns even more than everybody else because they live in a place where crime is more likely. In NY's case.
Also as a 2nd amendment supporter I don't want to alienate any group from our ranks. That is what the antis are trying to do. They are saying pistols and shotguns are ok but not those evil assault rifles. They are trying to drive a wedge between the various gun owners and now we have pro gun people trying to do the same with the LEO's vs non LEO gun owners.
Pat
Police having "assault weapons" that civilians cannot have drive a bigger wedge between pro-2A folks than anything else. Resentment.
Police are civilians, so any law that says "This civilian can own this, but this civilian cannot." no matter the justification is unconstitutional. In my opinion, it's all or none.
My opinion may be jaded, because I don't arrest drug addicts, and wife beaters for a living. But when I look at it on paper, and in general, it just seems very very wrong to me.
Animal_Mother556
02-16-13, 04:03
I would love to see someone take a poll of the NYPD officers...and see how many of them are pro-gun. My gut tells me there are plenty of them that hate the thought of non-LEOs having high caps and ARs...
Animal_Mother556
02-16-13, 04:09
Look at what happened with that Dorner cat. He instantly had people on his side...talking about conspiracies and whatnot. There is already a HUGE wedge between LE and non-LE. There are tons of people that view cops as being inherently evil. When they get to have defensive tools that I cannot have...that causes people to say "just another reason that they are better than me." That pisses people off. I don't know how to correct that...
I hate to jump in the fray but I have been here this long without an infraction so what the heck.
Pat your solidarity with LEO in ban states that have upheld unconstitutional laws is telling. You work in a state that's as unlikely as Alabama to enact a law that would prevent you from obtaining a Larue or Olympic firearm.
I need to purchase that OBR I have been wanting.
Power players respond to power plays, these rather small companies know which side their biscuit is buttered on. When a heavy hitter or 2 steps out with them you can expect shit will get right quick.
I'm not anti LEO by any stretch, any interaction I have had with LEO has been positive because I'm a law abiding citizen. If you or your LEO brothers have to deal with me at 2:00 a.m. its because my boat trailer tire blew out or I just needed you to help me load a lunatic you wont need a gun for into the meat wagon.
Stand by the constitution or stand by Bloomberg its your choice, just don't expect me to offer you a piece of cornbread and a RC because you have the Ruger quick email link as your signature.
I agree for the most part that alienation is bad for us but NY, NJ and CA are already lost, hit them where it hurts.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 04:44
Which also means that civilians need guns even more than everybody else because they live in a place where crime is more likely. In NY's case.
Police having "assault weapons" that civilians cannot have drive a bigger wedge between pro-2A folks than anything else. Resentment.
Police are civilians, so any law that says "This civilian can own this, but this civilian cannot." no matter the justification is unconstitutional. In my opinion, it's all or none.
My opinion may be jaded, because I don't arrest drug addicts, and wife beaters for a living. But when I look at it on paper, and in general, it just seems very very wrong to me.
The wedge you speak of was put in by the politicians that the people elected not the cops themselves.
I respect your opinion but I am all for making sure cops and soldiers have the best equipment possible regardless of politics.
Your right the laws passed in New York are very wrong. I agree but taking the guns from the police will not right that wrong. Only changing the law will do that.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 04:46
Pat your solidarity with LEO in ban states that have upheld unconstitutional laws is telling. You work in a state that's as unlikely as Alabama to enact a law that would prevent you from obtaining a Larue or Olympic firearm.
.
I hope it is telling. I stand by my brothers and sisters in blue. Its not just a job its a family and a way of life. The reason for the link in my signature is to get people to do productive efforts to fight for our freedom vs. trying to divide us even further like these companies are trying to do. Nothing is lost until we give up. There are other ways to fight for those in NY, NJ and CA. The courts is the best way to fight there.
Pat
I hope it is telling. I stand by my brothers and sisters in blue. Its not just a job its a family and a way of life.
Pat
Would that include the SS? They were LEO and everything they did was legal.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 04:51
Look at what happened with that Dorner cat. He instantly had people on his side...talking about conspiracies and whatnot. There is already a HUGE wedge between LE and non-LE. There are tons of people that view cops as being inherently evil. When they get to have defensive tools that I cannot have...that causes people to say "just another reason that they are better than me." That pisses people off. I don't know how to correct that...
Anti LEO folks used that as a tool. Dorner had been fired and had not been a cop for three years. The system worked and kicked him out of the profession. LAPD can not be held responsible for what he did 3 years after he was fired. The got rid of a bad apple. We don't judge the entire military by one bad soldier nor should we judge all cops by one bad cop.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 04:53
Would that include the SS? They were LEO and everything they did was legal.
Really now your comparing US LEO's to Nazi's. :rolleyes:
Now who is trying to drive a wedge. Troll much?
Would that include the SS? They were LEO and everything they did was legal.
This thread has gone full-on f***ing retard!
Really now your comparing US LEO's to Nazi's. :rolleyes:
Now who is trying to drive a wedge. Troll much?
Na not much, just when my dogs raise hell at 3:30 :D. Seriously we should think carefully about who we are aligned with. As far as Im concerned those 3 states and every one in them can slide off in the sea.
This thread has gone full-on f***ing retard!
It's a shame Chicago isn't closer to the Ocean....
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 05:17
Na not much, just when my dogs raise hell at 3:30 :D. Seriously we should think carefully about who we are aligned with. As far as Im concerned those 3 states and every one in them can slide off in the sea.
There are good people in those states and many are posters on this forum.
Pat
There are good people in those states and many are posters on this forum.
Pat
Yes sir, no doubt. I wish they would move to Colorado and strengthen our position there.
NickDrack, how many of the unconstitutional gun laws in Chicago have you upheld via enforcement?
If these laws get repealed and these companies start selling to LEO's again I would still not buy from them. As cops we need to start a list of companies who screwed us so we never do business with them again.
Pat
I respectfully disagree with your point of view. I would not view what Olympic Arms, Barrett, etc. are doing as screwing police officers; it's opposing oppressive government. They may not sell to a police agency, but you as an individual can purchase any firearm you like if your state does not prohibit ownership by a civilian. If a company will not sell to a civilian, then you will not be able to purchase the firearm and it will be up to your agency to provide the weapons you need to perform your job.
I have 31 years of LEO & Military employment and I do not take this issue lightly. If you are concerned that this will affect your ability to do your job, then the police union needs to put pressure on the department and state government to resolve this issue.
Littlelebowski
02-16-13, 06:26
Yes sir, no doubt. I wish they would move to Colorado and strengthen our position there.
NickDrack, how many of the unconstitutional gun laws in Chicago have you upheld via enforcement?
When I was in Chicago, Nick went out of his way to invite me to a local match (outside of Chicago) and to offer me a rifle to shoot it with. He's not the enemy, he's one of us.
NCPatrolAR
02-16-13, 06:42
the bickering and trolling needs to stop before I start hurting people's feelings again
When I was in Chicago, Nick went out of his way to invite me to a local match (outside of Chicago) and to offer me a rifle to shoot it with. He's not the enemy, he's one of us.
I am sure he is, my apologies to Nick and Pat. I woke up on the wrong side and been that way for a couple hours now. No excuse, carry on Gents.
Cops and soldiers need guns to do their job.
Pat
What about lowly civilian FFLs that need products to sell to stay in business?
Littlelebowski
02-16-13, 07:49
I am sure he is, my apologies to Nick and Pat. I woke up on the wrong side and been that way for a couple hours now. No excuse, carry on Gents.
People on here could learn from your post, well done.
Merriam Webster:
ci·vil·ian noun \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\
1
: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2
a : one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-16-13, 11:29
Merriam Webster:
ci·vil·ian noun \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\
1
: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2
a : one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
Which is why Ive never called cops or AD MIL civilians. I consider us all citizens under the US Constitution, and regardless of your job you are held to the same standard.
In the academy, we had an ethics class about the "brotherhood" and the "thin blue line". It was a warning about getting into the "us vs them" mentality, and realizing that behind the badge, we are all the same, regardless of job, title, or uniform. My brotherhood is a group of men and women who value the life of a victim more than their own, not the other way around.
To those cops who say cops in bad areas need their gun more than the civilians do, if you lost your job today and you lived in a bad area, would you be singing the same tune? Or would you demand to be well armed, simply because the police can not always be there? Are you all forgetting where you came from, are you all forgetting history? Does anyone not think that a government that is so terrified of its people that it would bar the use of arms may not be the most trustworthy entity?
Maybe its the fact I work for a conservative Republican Sheriff who does everything he can to advance the gun rights of the people in his county, maybe that makes it easy for me to actually want liberty for EVERYONE, not just myself and our deputies/officers.Or maybe I can just see all of this for what it really is....
Which is why Ive never called cops or AD MIL civilians. I consider us all citizens under the US Constitution, and regardless of your job you are held to the same standard.
In the academy, we had an ethics class about the "brotherhood" and the "thin blue line". It was a warning about getting into the "us vs them" mentality, and realizing that behind the badge, we are all the same, regardless of job, title, or uniform. My brotherhood is a group of men and women who value the life of a victim more than their own, not the other way around.
To those cops who say cops in bad areas need their gun more than the civilians do, if you lost your job today and you lived in a bad area, would you be singing the same tune? Or would you demand to be well armed, simply because the police can not always be there? Are you all forgetting where you came from, are you all forgetting history? Does anyone not think that a government that is so terrified of its people that it would bar the use of arms may not be the most trustworthy entity?
Maybe its the fact I work for a conservative Republican Sheriff who does everything he can to advance the gun rights of the people in his county, maybe that makes it easy for me to actually want liberty for EVERYONE, not just myself and our deputies/officers.Or maybe I can just see all of this for what it really is....
Great post...totally agree.
Which is why Ive never called cops or AD MIL civilians. I consider us all citizens under the US Constitution, and regardless of your job you are held to the same standard.
In the academy, we had an ethics class about the "brotherhood" and the "thin blue line". It was a warning about getting into the "us vs them" mentality, and realizing that behind the badge, we are all the same, regardless of job, title, or uniform. My brotherhood is a group of men and women who value the life of a victim more than their own, not the other way around.
To those cops who say cops in bad areas need their gun more than the civilians do, if you lost your job today and you lived in a bad area, would you be singing the same tune? Or would you demand to be well armed, simply because the police can not always be there? Are you all forgetting where you came from, are you all forgetting history? Does anyone not think that a government that is so terrified of its people that it would bar the use of arms may not be the most trustworthy entity?
Maybe its the fact I work for a conservative Republican Sheriff who does everything he can to advance the gun rights of the people in his county, maybe that makes it easy for me to actually want liberty for EVERYONE, not just myself and our deputies/officers.Or maybe I can just see all of this for what it really is....
Thank you.
Cagemonkey
02-16-13, 12:01
Which is why Ive never called cops or AD MIL civilians. I consider us all citizens under the US Constitution, and regardless of your job you are held to the same standard.
In the academy, we had an ethics class about the "brotherhood" and the "thin blue line". It was a warning about getting into the "us vs them" mentality, and realizing that behind the badge, we are all the same, regardless of job, title, or uniform. My brotherhood is a group of men and women who value the life of a victim more than their own, not the other way around.
To those cops who say cops in bad areas need their gun more than the civilians do, if you lost your job today and you lived in a bad area, would you be singing the same tune? Or would you demand to be well armed, simply because the police can not always be there? Are you all forgetting where you came from, are you all forgetting history? Does anyone not think that a government that is so terrified of its people that it would bar the use of arms may not be the most trustworthy entity?
Maybe its the fact I work for a conservative Republican Sheriff who does everything he can to advance the gun rights of the people in his county, maybe that makes it easy for me to actually want liberty for EVERYONE, not just myself and our deputies/officers.Or maybe I can just see all of this for what it really is....Well said. A man of principle and integrity. I wish we had more like you.
PA PATRIOT
02-16-13, 12:49
Now that this thread has gone Full Retard and its obvious the parties involved are at a impasse in opinion with nothing more to be gained by continuing with the bickering why go any further?
Those who bitch will bitch, those who have will have. The elected with a higher pay grade and in charge of such things have acted in the AWB states and until a court decides or a election changes things down the road nothing more will be gained by all the in fighting here.
Hopefully a Mod with put this one to rest.
And...
The ad hominem attacks come out when you don't agree. Good job :)
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 13:16
I am sure he is, my apologies to Nick and Pat. I woke up on the wrong side and been that way for a couple hours now. No excuse, carry on Gents.
Its cool I have said things on here in the heat of the moment before as well. I wish we would all unite rather than bicker.
Pat
The only thing I feel entitled to is the tools I need to do my job. None of the LEO's on here are saying we support the ban. However all we are saying is the way to fix the ban is not to try to apply the ban to law enforcement who need these tools to do the job and who are in greater risk than the average joe.
Pat
And all THEY are saying is they feel entitled to the tools THEY need to protect themselves and their loved ones.
Their rights HAVE been restricted. So they are likely to try anything to get them back.
A few points I'd like to touch on over the last few pages:
I have never "bump fired" any of my weapons at tin cans in a gravel pit. Sounds like it might be a good time, but I haven't done it. I have however used my guns several times to stop a crime in progress, prevent a crime from happening in the first place, and to defend myself and others from a possible criminal attack. The idea that the "average Joe" needs less firepower than the police in the same area is absurd. Tell that to the AR wielding Koreans whose businesses did NOT burn down during the L.A. Riots. I have used my guns for "good guy" purposes more times than some of the cops I know.
I have a cousin who is a sheriff. I am sad to say the he is not into guns in the least. He has refused many offers to attend classes or come to the range with me. He does the absolute minimum and only just barely qualifies 4 times a year. I have literally 20 times the training he has. Maybe more by now. Yet he's got an AR in his trunk with a 30 round mag loaded into that will actually drop free without a "tool". Why should this idiot be able to buy, carry or wield weapons that I cannot? Same story for some of the guys I went to high school with that went on to become cops. For some reason that I cannot understand, some members of society, politicians, and LEOs are completely fine with this incompetent ninnie carrying guns around on a daily basis, but somehow I should be banned from owning them. Makes no sense.
I am certainly glad that so many LEO are in favor of supporting the 2A, but how do we get them to fight for it, instead of " following orders" or "just doing their job"? Open to suggestions here. There is no greater force than all of the police and sheriffs all over the country that could put an instant stop to all of this non-sense. If the entire enforcement arm of the government publicly refuses to uphold these un-constitutional laws, it won't matter what the politicians do or say. Their words and laws will have no teeth without the support of LE. It is my opinion that any LEO carrying weapons that have been banned for the population in their "area of operation", ARE part of the problem. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. No LEO on this thread has responded to the FACT that in most instances, the civilian is going to be the "first responder" since LE cannot be every where all the time. ALL of us NEED to have access to the tools to do this job. Due to many factors, including an obviously biased mass media, failure to uphold immigration laws, failure to uphold a whole lot of other laws, too many kids growing up with no values and single moms, etc..., we are losing this battle. Simply saying "Move out of the state", or "vote for better politicians", is NOT going to do it. We have been silently invaded. The invaders have been corrupting us for decades, and I fear we have already lost this fight. We are past the point of simply voting better, or moving to a new state. This cancer is spreading across our whole country and running from it will not stop it. Every cop in the country standing up against it WILL stop it. It will stop it in an instant. I support any means necessary to get said officers into this fight. You are either FOR us or AGAINST us. This is not a "wedge" I wish to drive, it is a decision that must be made by each individual. Either you stand shoulder to shoulder with the citizens you swore to protect, your friends and family your fellow M4C members who share your support of the 2A, OR you enforce the laws passed by the socialist dictators in office currently.
Really this whole thing is pretty simple. There are more than 300,000,000 million Americans. If we all just say "NO.", and the cops refuse to comply with or enforce unjust laws, this whole nightmare would end literally in an instant. I repeat. I will support any means that will brings the cops into this fight instead of exempting them from it. They (you) are the best, most logical means of putting a stop to this insanity. Please help us.
JBecker 72
02-16-13, 14:26
www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/02/robert-farago/midway-no-leo-mag-and-ammo-sales-where-civilian-bans-apply/
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
A few points I'd like to touch on over the last few pages:
I have never "bump fired" any of my weapons at tin cans in a gravel pit. Sounds like it might be a good time, but I haven't done it. I have however used my guns several times to stop a crime in progress, prevent a crime from happening in the first place, and to defend myself and others from a possible criminal attack. The idea that the "average Joe" needs less firepower than the police in the same area is absurd. Tell that to the AR wielding Koreans whose businesses did NOT burn down during the L.A. Riots. I have used my guns for "good guy" purposes more times than some of the cops I know.
I have a cousin who is a sheriff. I am sad to say the he is not into guns in the least. He has refused many offers to attend classes or come to the range with me. He does the absolute minimum and only just barely qualifies 4 times a year. I have literally 20 times the training he has. Maybe more by now. Yet he's got an AR in his trunk with a 30 round mag loaded into that will actually drop free without a "tool". Why should this idiot be able to buy, carry or wield weapons that I cannot? Same story for some of the guys I went to high school with that went on to become cops. For some reason that I cannot understand, some members of society, politicians, and LEOs are completely fine with this incompetent ninnie carrying guns around on a daily basis, but somehow I should be banned from owning them. Makes no sense.
I am certainly glad that so many LEO are in favor of supporting the 2A, but how do we get them to fight for it, instead of " following orders" or "just doing their job"? Open to suggestions here. There is no greater force than all of the police and sheriffs all over the country that could put an instant stop to all of this non-sense. If the entire enforcement arm of the government publicly refuses to uphold these un-constitutional laws, it won't matter what the politicians do or say. Their words and laws will have no teeth without the support of LE. It is my opinion that any LEO carrying weapons that have been banned for the population in their "area of operation", ARE part of the problem. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. No LEO on this thread has responded to the FACT that in most instances, the civilian is going to be the "first responder" since LE cannot be every where all the time. ALL of us NEED to have access to the tools to do this job. Due to many factors, including an obviously biased mass media, failure to uphold immigration laws, failure to uphold a whole lot of other laws, too many kids growing up with no values and single moms, etc..., we are losing this battle. Simply saying "Move out of the state", or "vote for better politicians", is NOT going to do it. We have been silently invaded. The invaders have been corrupting us for decades, and I fear we have already lost this fight. We are past the point of simply voting better, or moving to a new state. This cancer is spreading across our whole country and running from it will not stop it. Every cop in the country standing up against it WILL stop it. It will stop it in an instant. I support any means necessary to get said officers into this fight. You are either FOR us or AGAINST us. This is not a "wedge" I wish to drive, it is a decision that must be made by each individual. Either you stand shoulder to shoulder with the citizens you swore to protect, your friends and family your fellow M4C members who share your support of the 2A, OR you enforce the laws passed by the socialist dictators in office currently.
Really this whole thing is pretty simple. There are more than 300,000,000 million Americans. If we all just say "NO.", and the cops refuse to comply with or enforce unjust laws, this whole nightmare would end literally in an instant. I repeat. I will support any means that will brings the cops into this fight instead of exempting them from it. They (you) are the best, most logical means of putting a stop to this insanity. Please help us.
I've been trying,unsuccessfully,to say just that.
Thanks.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 14:33
A few points I'd like to touch on over the last few pages:
I have never "bump fired" any of my weapons at tin cans in a gravel pit. Sounds like it might be a good time, but I haven't done it. I have however used my guns several times to stop a crime in progress, prevent a crime from happening in the first place, and to defend myself and others from a possible criminal attack. The idea that the "average Joe" needs less firepower than the police in the same area is absurd. Tell that to the AR wielding Koreans whose businesses did NOT burn down during the L.A. Riots. I have used my guns for "good guy" purposes more times than some of the cops I know.
I have a cousin who is a sheriff. I am sad to say the he is not into guns in the least. He has refused many offers to attend classes or come to the range with me. He does the absolute minimum and only just barely qualifies 4 times a year. I have literally 20 times the training he has. Maybe more by now. Yet he's got an AR in his trunk with a 30 round mag loaded into that will actually drop free without a "tool". Why should this idiot be able to buy, carry or wield weapons that I cannot? Same story for some of the guys I went to high school with that went on to become cops. For some reason that I cannot understand, some members of society, politicians, and LEOs are completely fine with this incompetent ninnie carrying guns around on a daily basis, but somehow I should be banned from owning them. Makes no sense.
.
Well those idiot as you put it is the one that will be called to stop an active shooter at the school because of their job not you. While I don't agree with any ban if there is a ban and you begrudge the LEO's having their tools you could always apply for a cop job and get those same tools and the responsibilities to go with them if you are so inclined. Again the solution is to get the laws changed back so everyone can have these tools. Trying to restrict guns even further so the police don't have them is counter productive.
Pat
Belmont31R
02-16-13, 14:33
Midway USA joins the club with no sales to ban states for LE/LEO's....:D
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/02/robert-farago/midway-no-leo-mag-and-ammo-sales-where-civilian-bans-apply/
Well those idiot as you put it is the one that will be called to stop an active shooter at the school because of their job not you. While I don't agree with any ban if there is a ban and you begrudge the LEO's having their tools you could always apply for a cop job and get those same tools and the responsibilities to go with them if you are so inclined. Again the solution is to get the laws changed back so everyone can have these tools. Trying to restrict guns even further so the police don't have them is counter productive.
Pat
How can that be what you took from the post? What about the rank and file cops standing up for their/our rights? I think that was the important part of the post. A unified front by police would stop this thing cold.
Magic_Salad0892
02-16-13, 14:39
Midway USA joins the club with no sales to ban states for LE/LEO's....:D
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/02/robert-farago/midway-no-leo-mag-and-ammo-sales-where-civilian-bans-apply/
There's a bigger name...
Dude. If Colt, DPMS, Bushmater, or DD took this on...
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 14:40
How can that be what you took from the post? What about the rank and file cops standing up for their/our rights? I think that was the important part of the post. A unified front by police would stop this thing cold.
I would also like a unified front. I have joined Law Enforcement Officers for the 2nd amendment on Facebook. I do agree that we need a large organization that is organized that represents rank and file officers showing support for the 2nd amendment. Not sure where to begin to get one started however.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 14:41
Midway USA joins the club with no sales to ban states for LE/LEO's....:D
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/02/robert-farago/midway-no-leo-mag-and-ammo-sales-where-civilian-bans-apply/
That sucks one more company that I literally spend thousands with that will have to write a letter to and let them know I won't be shopping with them anymore.
Pat
That sucks one more company that I literally spend thousands with that will have to write a letter to and let them know I won't be shopping with them anymore.
Pat
Take it up with your union. Have your Chief take it up with the IACP. This is a problem for everyone but as it slowly starts creeping into the day-to-day lives of officers maybe, just maybe police organizations will get on the right side of this issue and help get it corrected for everyone. When my supplier tells me that he won't ship to me anymore because of this I am going to respect his stand on the issue.
Magic_Salad0892
02-16-13, 15:09
Here's the question, will they still sell to you if it's a personal rifle?
JBecker 72
02-16-13, 15:10
Here's the question, will they still sell to you if it's a personal rifle?
Sure, so long as the item does not violate any local laws or restrictions.
Cagemonkey
02-16-13, 15:28
Take it up with your union. Have your Chief take it up with the IACP. This is a problem for everyone but as it slowly starts creeping into the day-to-day lives of officers maybe, just maybe police organizations will get on the right side of this issue and help get it corrected for everyone. When my supplier tells me that he won't ship to me anymore because of this I am going to respect his stand on the issue.I agree.
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