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C4IGrant
03-11-08, 13:29
This weekend, there was a private M4C/Vickers Tactical 3 day pistol/carbine/low light class in South Hill, VA. There were about 18 shooters in the class with the majority of them being the mods and staff.

Mr. Vickers pulled out some new drills that many of us have never seen before (thank you very much). He also made us do a lot of offhand shooting. This took a good many shooters out of their comfort zone to say the least! This is of course a good thing.

A special mention and thanks goes out to Drake of Magpul. He managed to steal away one of the first protoypes Masada's! We all got to shoot it and everyone thought that it was simply fantastic! I know that we are all looking forward to it coming out.
Drake is also a very good shooter (a rare thing in the manufacturer world).

I would also like to recommend to people going to a shooting school in South Hill, to check out the Three Angels Inn. The owners are simply fantastic & food was top notch to say the least. http://www.threeangelsinn.com/

For gear, I ran my S&W M&P 9mm and a custom built Noveske 10.5 with a SF 556K can. This setup has always proven to be reliable for me and this weekend was no different.
I fired over 600rds of Hornady 55gr TAP Practice (steel cased) through my carbine without a single malfunction. This is good, reliable ammo.

Ok enough with the chatter, onto the pics!


C4



Masada in case
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Magpul%20Masada%20in%20case.jpg

Drake sportin Multicam luv
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Drake%20WBD.jpg

Hawkeye and Drake running drills
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Drake%20and%20John%20shooting.jpg

Carbine drills
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Carbine%20shooting.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Both%20%20groups%20shooting%20carbine.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/C4%20shooting.jpg

LAV tellin everybody to "Simma Down Now"
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/LAV%20Talking.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/LAV%20demoing%20pistol.jpg

Poser LAV's unworn BFG sling label :D
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/LAV%20unworn%20label.jpg

LAV's famous walk back drill
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/LAV%20WBD.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/SHIVAN%20WBD.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/5pt56%20WBD.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Ben%20WBD.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/DP%20WBD.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Dinger%20WBD.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Eric%20WBD.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Katar%20WBD.jpg

Fallujah Drill
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/fallujah%20drill.jpg

rob_s
03-11-08, 13:35
That sling pic is priceless.:D

C4IGrant
03-11-08, 13:40
That sling pic is priceless.:D

I looked at just about every BFG Vickers sling label in the class. None were worn. I guess they must have all bought them new right before the class. ;)




C4

John_Wayne777
03-11-08, 13:41
Looks like a great class.

I wish I could have been there. :(

markm
03-11-08, 13:45
The mods/staff aren't fat enough.

John_Wayne777
03-11-08, 13:49
The mods/staff aren't fat enough.

If I was there my extra ballast would have made up for that....:p

Buck
03-11-08, 13:53
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Dinger%20WBD.jpg


AVAST YE MATEE... AAARGH!!! IM A PIRATE!!!

Stretz Tactical Inc
03-11-08, 14:06
What is the fallujah drill?

SHIVAN
03-11-08, 14:24
TD1 - hell on wheels with the ball and dummy drills in the pouring rain. Followed by more rain, and more pistol drills. I practice weak hand pistol a fair amount, but it's always eye-opening under simulated stress, and a LAV par time. Nothing earth shattering here especially after attending LAV's 1911 Operator's course.

TD2 - Weak side shooting, weak side shooting, and weak side shooting. I found a new place on the range where it's not so warm and cozy. If you don't practice this dark corner of the toolbox often, LAV's offhand drills feel like a hammer on your shin.

TD3 - Fallujah drill killed the finish on my M4-2000....:( Apparently, head shots on Haji targets from 25yds while applying covering fire for my team was too much for the finish to bear.

Notes:

** Shooting a class with a can doesn't cripple a quality gun. DrDrake and I ran the whole class with AAC cans. Others with cans for large portions of the class: C4iGrant, TacticalShooter, and gotm4.
** Vickers sling is GTG after I learned how to use it from Larry. :p
** PMAG's are GTG, even in the shit.
** High density concrete benches double as a perfect finishing tool for a single early PMAG that was tight in my Colt lower. 10 seconds later, perfection.
** Slip2000 is bad if the temps drop below 32 degrees. Water based lube gets thick, and is doubly worse with a can adding carbon to the thick lube.
** Weak hand practice with carbine is a must. It makes strong hand shooting seem easier.
** Apparently the adjunct instructor from Blackwater can shoot some...mark5pt56 wins both the pistol and carbine walkback drills...

C4IGrant
03-11-08, 14:31
The mods/staff aren't fat enough.

Don't know about that. During the "Fallujah Drill" two of the mods complained that I was much heavier than I appeared (while they were dragging me across the range). Then they dropped me. :mad:



C4

C4IGrant
03-11-08, 14:32
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Dinger%20WBD.jpg


AVAST YE MATEE... AAARGH!!! IM A PIRATE!!!


AAARRRGH! Pirate Paul! :D


C4

SHIVAN
03-11-08, 14:33
During the "Fallujah Drill" two of the mods complained that I was much heavier than I appeared (while they were dragging me across the range).

Also known as a "density issue"..........:eek: :eek: :eek:

C4IGrant
03-11-08, 14:34
What is the fallujah drill?

Basically you have two wounded shooters down on one side of the range and your team has to move from one place to another coordinating cover fire all along the way. Then you have to drag the down shooters back.

The purpose of the drill is to work on team work and communication.


C4

Buck
03-11-08, 14:35
Then they dropped me.

Gravity is not just a good idea...

Its the law... ;)

Ed L.
03-11-08, 14:48
** Slip2000 is bad if the temps drop below 32 degrees. Water based lube gets thick, and is doubly worse with a can adding carbon to the thick lube.

Do you mean the Slip2000 lube or the cleaning spray?

I just got home from a shooting class and have not unpacked my Slip2000 lube (I don't even know where it is), but I can't imagine the lube being water based.

SHIVAN
03-11-08, 15:09
Do you mean the Slip2000 lube or the cleaning spray?

I just got home from a shooting class and have not unpacked my Slip2000 lube (I don't even know where it is), but I can't imagine the lube being water based.

Says it synthetic, but I'm telling you the lube was thick...almost 100% sure the bottle said water based...

Militec on the 1911 was still thin....

Edit: Slip2000 says it synthetic and GTG down below -100 degrees. I'm here to tell you that, it ran great when above freezing, and ran like butt when it got to freezing and below.

warpigM-4
03-11-08, 15:23
wow!that looks likes some great fun and training in the rain ,most of my BRM was in full battle rattle and sideways down pour.I am so wanting to attend one of the classes,the training and knowledge would be great for a newbie like me,the army training just was enough to wet my mouth .Thanks for the pictures.:D

Boss Hogg
03-11-08, 15:56
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Dinger%20WBD.jpg

Is that an HK upper?

Very slick setup.

Rmplstlskn
03-11-08, 15:59
I looked at just about every BFG Vickers sling label in the class. None were worn. I guess they must have all bought them new right before the class. ;)

C4

Or just a sign of the times... ammo too expensive to shoot more and most of us just "recreational shooters"...

Rmpl

Hawkeye
03-11-08, 16:11
I had a GREAT time. Great class and I definitely came away with some new things to practice/try.

And what can I say....being tall and gravity dont work well together at times....especially when trying to quickly move a somewhat awkward gravitationally compliant.....object.

C4IGrant
03-11-08, 16:21
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Dinger%20WBD.jpg

Is that an HK upper?

Very slick setup.


It is an HK.


C4

C4IGrant
03-11-08, 16:22
Or just a sign of the times... ammo too expensive to shoot more and most of us just "recreational shooters"...

Rmpl

The sling comment is kind of an inside joke.


C4

C4IGrant
03-11-08, 16:23
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Team%20pic.jpg



C4

Jay Cunningham
03-11-08, 16:44
Thanks Grant for putting on this event, LAV for a tremendous class and Paul and David for all of their organizing efforts.

Like the old song says, sometimes you don't always get what you want, but you get what you need. Running the carbine portion of the class weak hand was great thinking on LAV's part. Who thought we'd be running a walkback drill in high wind shooting weak hand and scoring good hits!?

Great group of shooters, hardly any whining or sniveling, very safe and good attitudes. All guns zeroed and issue free, for the most part. Also a great showing from our LEO buddies - I learned a lot from Buck and Mark.

Here's a pic of the crowd response after LAV did his grizzly impersonation:

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/4631/m4cprivate002op7.jpg


I figured it was about time that I actually use an AR in one of LAV's classes. Not to worry, I brought an AK-74M clone with me and I put it to good use during the Fallujah Drill:

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/fallujah%20drill.jpg

Nice to meet you all and shoot with you all!

mark5pt56
03-11-08, 16:49
That's the first time in a while that I've got out. I was thoroughly impressed with What Larry put out. Usually the saying goes that "if you only pick up one thing" from a class, it was worth it. Well, I got more than one.

I really enjoying meeting everyone and seeing different gear/weapon ideas. From my background and experience, I was impressed with everyone's enthusiasm, interest and proficiency with arms.

Of course, I will forever known as the Hebrew Hammer!

Yeah, to bad you missed the part where Larry had his arms up and was snarling! My lower is a Grizzly and Larry got a kick out of the logo.

For those of you who can make it to one of Larry's classes, I strongly recommend it!

Mark

Hawkeye
03-11-08, 16:59
Hey, cool! You can see distinctly where Grant the human plow went through. :D

mark5pt56
03-11-08, 17:46
Hey, cool! You can see distinctly where Grant the human plow went through. :D

That was funny, he had mud in everything!

subzero
03-11-08, 17:56
I guess I shouldn't have peeled the label off of my Victory sling, eh? Or maybe because it's the "economy" version of the Vickers sling, peeling the label off is a design feature.

Economy is in quotes because I don't see much of a downside to the Victory series. Good kit.

It was refreshing to hear a manufacturer would be at a class (heard it before) and then have them actually show up (never seen that before). To have prototypes out for people to finger and shoot, and to see them shot in the class, was nothing short of amazing. Kudos to Magpul for doing it right. And Drake is a good guy, I don't care what Paul says.

Paul the Pirate was one of the funniest things I've ever seen at a class. I'm glad you were willing to challenge yourself and try out something you clearly had not done before. Shooting weak handed/weak eyed is a valuable tool and as you saw on the walkback drill, you can get hits at distance that way. I'm sure once you train your eyes to do what you want, you'll be able to do it without the eyepatch. But it won't be as funny.

EOTech 511s are not the boringly reliable bit of kit my Aimpoint has been. The batteries don't like heat, cold, being stored for a long time...or maybe they just don't like me. Regardless, thanks to Grant for hooking me up with the batteries I needed to get the optic up and running again after my brain fart.

The BFG Victory sling is a great bit of kit. Retaining all the functionality of the original at just over half the price, there's no good reason not to get one. Since it's only available in black, mine will get hit with some spray paint eventually.

I was in love with the Warren rear on my M&P, but that's over now. The rear notch is simply too big for me for precision shooting at a distance. It will be replaced by a Bowie shortly.

The M&P ran great despite all the lube being washed off in the rain Friday afternoon (which upped the trigger pull by about a pound). The texturing on the frontstrap and backstrap (done by me) proved worthwhile in the rain. I was impressed that the magazines kept functioning well despite repeated drops in the mud on Friday. The witness holes seem to allow a lot into the mag body, but not enough to get them to choke. Regardless, I think I'd like to see those witness holes closed up some.

Some interesting gear choices shown by the mods and staff of M4Carbine. I'm just glad they let a sappy pine knot like me hang around and say dumb stuff every now and then.

Thanks to Grant and Larry for another great class.

John_Wayne777
03-11-08, 18:40
I had a GREAT time. Great class and I definitely came away with some new things to practice/try.

And what can I say....being tall and gravity dont work well together at times....especially when trying to quickly move a somewhat awkward gravitationally compliant.....object.

You're lucky nobody had to drag a rear-end my size across the range....:D

Hawkeye
03-11-08, 18:52
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Training/Vickers%20M4C/Drake.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Training/Vickers%20M4C/Drake2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Training/Vickers%20M4C/DrakeMasada1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Training/Vickers%20M4C/MeMasada1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Training/Vickers%20M4C/MeMasada2.jpg

Heavy Metal
03-11-08, 19:20
Yep, definitely better weather when I was there three weeks ago:D

Robb Jensen
03-11-08, 22:16
Great class with some great guys. I feel that this made us a little closer knit as a group.


The bed and breakfast was also excellent. :D

By far the best class that I've ever attended.

TD1 - rain, rain rain...pistol only. Very challenging.
TD2 - weak side rifle only, also very challenging but probably not as hard for me as I'm left eye dominant and for a year not so long ago I shot only weak side with long guns.
TD3 - good stuff mixing up everything learned and doing team drills.

For the class my primary gun was my LMT 10" AR which I ran suppressed sometimes. Secondary was my Glock 17.

I had exactly one failure with my rifle. I was shooting a mixture of rifle ammo that was in my ammo can. There were a few rounds of Radway Green in there. I think the one stoppage I had (fired but failed to eject) was with one round of Radway Green (suppressor was not mounted then) the rifle didn't even cycle far enough for the empty to come off the bolt, after finishing the drill with my secondary (Glock 17) I then pulled the charging handle and the empty ejected and the bolt picked up the next round in the mag.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/e7ed2ffc.jpg

mark5pt56
03-11-08, 22:41
Footwear--My Danners never failed, well worth the close to 200 spent.


Wet weather outer wear-The Gore-Tex worked excellent, typical seepage around openings.


Eyepro-Oakley's rock, need to get some low light lenses--Dinger needs to wear his night lenses, not my dark ones and look like Ray Charles at night.


Chest rig-need to look into H harnes and/or split front. The criss/cross type straps are a little tuff in and out of. I like the BHI padded belt, but like Hawkey's ICE belt a bit more.


Glock 17, bang, bang, bang

Middy Sabre upper/Aimpoint 2moa/fixed fsb/Larue rear-100%

LMT 10.5/LMT rear/fixed fsb--I must have got lucky-100%

Cracker Barrel Chicken n Dumplins and hot apple cider---yumm yumm

The new Vickers padded sling is freakin awesome!

Bulldog1967
03-11-08, 22:53
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/Katar%20WBD.jpg

AK FTW! wOOt! :D

macman37
03-12-08, 06:59
Looks like you boys had fun! :)

SCULLY
03-12-08, 07:47
Thanks for the report and the pics.

C4IGrant
03-12-08, 08:50
That was funny, he had mud in everything!


No, not really that funny. :mad:


C4

Pat_D
03-12-08, 09:48
By far the best training course I have ever attended and I have trained with Pat Rogers and Jeff Gonzales on more than one occasion prior to this class.

Larry did a fantastic job of taking me out of my comfort zone every day we trained. I really liked Larry's method of teaching. His trigger and ball and dummy drills were excellent and taught me alot about trigger control with my Glock. Larry changed my stance from being squared up, or Spongebob as he is fond of saying, to a more bladed stance with my Carbine. I like that better and it does offer more control when shooting.

Equipment wise I ran my Colt CQBR 10.25" which ran flawlessly all weekend. I ran my Surefire can for about half the carbine portion and it performed well. I did change the configuration of my rifle about 5 times during the course of the weekend. Changed where my sling attached, changed out my rail panels to allow me to activate my light more easily, (Thanks Grant), changed how far out I ran my stock, changed the position of my forward grip, and finally I changed the length of my sling to run the carbine a bit higher on my chest. Sheesh, I thought riflewise I was all squared away.

Handgunwise, I ran a Glock 17 with Warren/Sevigney nights, a 3.5lb connector and a bit of grip tape. This proved to be very valuable as Friday it rained all day. Holsterwise I used a Safariland 6004 hung from an Eagle molle belt. It was my first time running this setup and I must say it all worked perfectly. No malfunctions of any kind from the 17 and the padded molle belt proved very comfortable over the 3 day course.

I'm glad some pictures got taken as I forgot my Camera. That's me in the "Monica" position directly behind the barrier in the fallujah drill. The worst part about that was dude's muzzle right next to my ear. He did not have a can and every time he fired it went BANG!!! Ouch...

GotM4 would not be happy if I didn't pick on myself a little bit. He claims the funniest thing that happened all weekend was my complete brain fade during the "Chair Drill". In the middle of it, my carbine went dry while on my weak shoulder. Instead of just transitioning I tried to fix the gun and it was just ugly. Buck claims I tried to barricade myself behind the empty magazine I was holding in my hand. :(. I eventually transitioned and finished the drill but not before LAV had done his best impersonation of the monkey f-----g a football behind me. No worries, the next day he was demoing a drill and when he brought the carbine "up", the magazine promptly fell out and hit the deck. Larry promptly tried to transition and grabbed a handful of jacket insted of his 1911. I had my revenge as I did my best impression of the same "monkey f-----g a football" behind him. Larry took it all in stride. It's nice to know that such a great instructor can laugh at himself.

Thanks to Grant and the staff/mods for allowing me to attend. I cannot think of a better group of guys to take a class with. The nights in the inn were lots of fun and I gained valuable info just hanging around with some of these great shooters. I look forward to the next class. Take care guys.

SHIVAN
03-12-08, 10:02
Based on Mark's post:

Asolo FSN85 goretex boots - for standing around they suck. Lower leg & heel fatigue is pretty bad. Mirrored by Dinger and his Asolos. However, my feet were perfectly dry on TD1 and TD2.

Wrangler Cargo Pants - got them cheap at "China"WalMart, $16 each, but they seem to wear better than BDU's, and are cheaper than Woolrich or 5.11 stuff.

Blackhawk "web" belt - needs to get replaced with something else. I have used this since Blackwater in 2001, and I need something that is "quick adjust" for putting on over jackets and other cold weather/rain gear. I'd also like to get a molle cover to start using the Eagle molle FB stuff on my belt.

Eagle CP223 chest carrier still works well, might look for a molle version soon though.

North Face Jacket (http://www.ombexpress.com/product~cat~999~sku~JK004.asp) from OMB for $79.99 was PERFECT for the weather we had. Plus it has a ton of pockets, and comes with a North Face liner too. North Face makes good jackets and this was no exception. Highly recommend getting one at this $80 price. They only have SM, 2XL, 3XL and 4XL left though. The color shown is not accurate, it is DARK navy, almost black.

Underarmour - as always, it's GTG.

Oakley M-frames have yet to fail me for eye pro.

Colt 6920 lower - a 4 position stock is a no-go while running a Short Dot.

Short Dot - awesome optic, but heavy....really shines on things like the Fallujah drill where I could take head or neck shots with ease, still need some work on my par time shots with magnification though. :(

AAC M4-2000 (2006 version) - When working in close proximity to a team mate, a suppressor is invaluable. To shave another few ounces, I may get this one upgraded to the new version. It's heavy out front, but worth it. The finish got KILLED in the Fallujah drill. Apparently firing 5+ mags in about 3-5 minutes will do that ...

Jay Cunningham
03-12-08, 10:19
I'll give a little gear review as well:

I ran a new Sabre mid-length upper and it met my expectations - I'll give a full gun review in a separate thread.

Thanks to http://www.weaponshield.com/ for the free samples of lube. I used this exclusively on my middy and it worked just fine.

Lightweight "assault style" boots are highly recommended for most scenarios, but sometimes you need something to deal with extraordinary slop. I had a pair of good ol' USGI Bates boots that were ideal for the foul conditions we had by the end of TD1 and all of TD2.

Underarmor, MSA/Sordin earpro, Carhartt cargo pants, Raven Concealment Systems holsters/carrier were all GTG.

I used several different pairs of gloves; for most range work I prefer a thin neoprene glove. When the weather took a turn for the worse I used two different pairs of Mechanix gloves to good effect.

I tried my Vickers sling attached to the rear of my stock and didn't like it. I moved it back to the rear of the receiver.

I have decided to invest in a padded MOLLE style belt system. I have been questioning the use of chest rigs and now I've made my decision. I'll don't think that I'll be selling them, but my primary LBE will be a padded belt.

S&W M&P45 w/SFx300, Bowie sights and CT laser - one failure to fully go into battery on TD1, otherwise GTG. The pistol was lubed with Slip2000. I may get a Bowie trigger job, if for no other reason than to tighten up the reset.

mark5pt56
03-12-08, 10:33
Blackhawk "web" belt - needs to get replaced with something else. I have used this since Blackwater in 2001, and I need something that is "quick adjust" for putting on over jackets and other cold weather/rain gear. I'd also like to get a molle cover to start using the Eagle molle FB stuff on my belt.

Same here with the BHI belt, mine is either tight or loose, depending on clothing worn. I could have used it for a power lifting belt with the foul weather gear we had on. The adjustment straps work loose through the buckle. I ran the ends back through and under the pouches and "fixed" them into the molle. Not quick adjust at all. If they would reverse the strap so they went back through and into the inside of the belt with enough velcro facing to keep the straps from backing out.

Mark

Larry Vickers
03-12-08, 10:47
Definately not your normal class in any way, shape , or form - shooting the Magpul Masada prototype alone made it unique

I had a great time and kudos to everyone for a great atmosphere - and MAJOR Kudos to Drake and Magpul for attending the class and bringing a prototype gun for everyone to shoot - in the firearms industry that is virtually unheard of and shows a very forward thinking mindset on Magpul's behalf

Cheers

Larry Vickers

www.vickerstactical.com

subzero
03-12-08, 16:26
Thoughts on the Vickers M4Carbine.net class

Equipment used

+ Mutt lower with Stag 16” upper
+ DD Omega Rail
+ EOTech 511 on Larue mount
+ G&R WG6D light with SF clicky cap, HO bulb in Larue offset mount
+ BFG Victory sling
+ M&P 9, Warren rear, SSS serrated front

Day 1

Day 1 was all pistol beginning with drills designed to bring out the trigger control demons (El Snatcho) that plague everyone. These drills are great because they are tools you can take home with you and use to keep your skill level up in between classes. They are great diagnostic tools for the instructor as well as the shooter. Larry has refined the standard ball and dummy drill to add nuances to it that add the stress of timed or command fire. This little nuance is great because it simulates some of the stress one might feel under a real shooting scenario where the niceties of square range dry fire practice don’t apply.

From there we moved on to reload drills, Seibel (sp?) drills (6 reload 6 reload 6) and a modified Humbler that removed the 10 rds of prone slow fire. Why? Did I mention it was raining? Yes. Cold rain. The ground turned into slop under our feet and lube washed off of guns as the rain poured throughout the day. Many magazines got mudbaths as they were dropped into the red clay mud beneath us.

Day 2

Day 2 began with a quick zero confirmation on our carbines as the rain tapered off and the wind began in earnest. Day 2 was shot almost exclusively from the weak shoulder for the express purpose of pushing every shooter out of their comfort zone. I have found this to be a tremendous learning tool because when doing the unfamiliar, I focus more intensely on the fundamentals. Thus, most of the time when we were shooting I was running the gun as though I were a right handed shooter forced to shoot left handed. The BFG Victory sling proved to be an excellent aid for this, as I could easily turn the sling into a big neck loop and switch shoulders.

Speaking of the Victory sling, for those of you who don’t know it, it’s intended to be the economy version of the BFG VCAS quick adjust two point sling. Major differences include a plastic slider instead of metal, only available in black (thus no worries about matching hardware), and the fabric is a bit shinier than the standard VCAS. The functionality is completely identical though. I found the sling to be a bit stiff but that’s the deal I suppose you make when you get the $35 sling instead of the $55 one. The VCAS is a bit more supple (thanks to materials used and how it’s built), so it doesn’t chafe. I set my sling up with a QD swivel on each end so I can use one sling between either of my carbines. Having the light on a QD Larue mount also let me move my light between guns if necessary.

It became necessary later in the day when my EOTech failed after about 5 hours of being on. I suspected a battery problem and, like an idiot, had no spares. That’s what I get for getting used to the boring reliability of the Aimpoint ML2 on my other carbine. Grant came to the rescue and got me some batteries to get me up and running after using my backup carbine for a few drills. The EOTech failed again during the night shoot as the cold froze the batteries out. Larry treated the class to some choice words with his thoughts on my choice of gear, which were all true. It got up and running again the next day after finding a set of batteries that would work for more than an hour, but the moral of the story is the batteries don’t like heat, cold or being stored. So I suppose it’s time to sell the 511. A small dot optic, small form factor optic or adjustable magnification optic will likely replace the 511.

The night shoot featured drills utilizing the flashbulb technique developed by Vickers and Ken Hackathorn, with the idea being to use as little light as possible in conjunction with lateral movement to locate, identify and engage targets. Using less light is counterintuitive and a difficult skill to master. In order to get full value I wonder if it wouldn’t be better to have one or two shooters at a time on the line, far apart from each other so there’s less light splash. I was able to complete the drill without turning my light on thanks to the copious amounts of light on the targets from other shooters. In all, probably the best idea is to take that drill home and practice where someone can get the full value of the technique on their own. Again, one of the things I really like about the Vickers classes is that you don't just get a short term improvement in your shooting, you get tools you can take with you to keep improving on your own time. We also practiced night transitions where we utilized the light from the carbine while employing the pistol. This technique has a lot of merit for those without lights on their handguns. Night shooting aids like the CTC lasergrips and night sights were discussed as well.

Day 3

Day 3 consisted of more transition drills and shooting on the move (from the weak side). Shooting on the move in the now-frozen mud presented more than the usual challenge but focusing on the fundamentals produced acceptable results. A final drill designed to show how communications and plans change and/or fail once bullets start flying was, at the very least, interesting.

Overall the class had a bit different pace and feel from the open enrollment classes I have attended previously. Attendees were from all over the country with industry types actually being part of the class! I have heard that manufacturers would attend previous classes I have been to, and have become less and less surprised as Day 1 rolls around and they’re nowhere to be found. I’ve never bought into the excuses they’ve given or understood why they wouldn’t want to have their stuff out in a place where people are putting it through it’s paces in a learning environment. Maybe some folks feel that a 3 or 5 day open enrollment class isn’t the place to test out a new idea or product. I disagree. I’m there to figure out what works for me in terms of gear, guns, tactics, etc. So why not them?

This was the 4th or 5th Vickers class I have attended and I am definitely pleased with what I have learned. I also appreciate the frank and earnest talk about all manner of things, including how the 1911 is a crutch, light is a crutch, how competition shooters have made the world better for the tactical types (and how they mess it up as well) and how much of an idiot I am for not liking the M1 Garand.

Walking away from the class I felt good about a few things. I’m definitely ahead of where I was a few years back when I got started with this whole class thing, but I feel like I’ve reached another plateau. I realize that the difference between where I am and where I want to be is practice and pushing myself to be faster, so I know what’s necessary. That’s good.

I felt good about a number of my gear choices, particularly my belt setup. I carry 2-4 pistol mags, 1 carbine mag, dump pouch (which usually holds a carbine mag and some loose rounds) Surefire G2, Leatherman and pistol on the belt. Another rifle mag in a pocket, one in the gun and a pistol mag in the gun, and I’m up on line all day without needing to top off in the middle of a drill. I'm not Superman with 10 mags on my chest, but I don't need to be. I'm happy with my dual belt setup. I use a hook only belt to hold up the pantaloons, and an SOE Riggers belt with loop on the inside over top of that. I've run that for about a year now and it's proven itself valuable. The G-Code holster worked well (again), but my pistol mag holders need some updating. An upgrade for the belt may be in the future, but there's no rush. The new ATS belt system has some promise.

My Howard Leight Impact Sport earmuffs have made it through yet another class and I'm now convinced they are the best value in active hearing protection. I have gone through classes with foamies, Peltor Tac 6s with foamies and now I'm down to just the HLs. Hearing protection is more than adequate, they amplify much more than necessary when turned up high (good mic sensitivity) and when exposed to the elements over the weekend they didn't hiccup at all. I think they're far superior to the budget Peltors, and not far removed from the Comtacs. I like the knob to turn them on better than the Comtac buttons (tactile response clicking it on and off) but I added a white paint dot to the knob so I could tell by looking whether the muff was on or off. They will automatically turn off after a while, but I don't want to depend on that.

I was less than pleased with the aforementioned EOTech 511 and the Warren rear sight on my M&P. An edge was damaged just prior to the class which left a glare on the top of the right edge of the sight that I attempted to address with a marker, paint pen, sight black and cold blue, all of which were impermanent solutions. Also the width of the rear notch, great for run & gun competitions, was less than ideal for precision shooting (for me). I will be going back to a standard width notch shortly.

My cold/wet weather gear could use some updating. I was happy with my rain jacket, but I haven't found a pair of rain pants I like yet. I didn't like having to use the Mechanix gloves at night and on Day 3, but gloved hands were warmer than bare hands, so I went with it. It's definitely time for a new pair of boots. My Bellevilles were ok but they've never worn well for me and I'm not happy with how heavy they are. They were dry and warm though, once I finally did wear them. Why I waited so long to switch out, I have no idea.

Jay Cunningham
03-12-08, 17:06
Absolutely outstanding critique, subzero!

Sidewinder6
03-12-08, 20:00
QUote[It became necessary later in the day when my EOTech failed after about 5 hours of being on. I suspected a battery problem and, like an idiot, had no spares. That’s what I get for getting used to the boring reliability of the Aimpoint ML2 on my other carbine. Grant came to the rescue and got me some batteries to get me up and running after using my backup carbine for a few drills. The EOTech failed again during the night shoot as the cold froze the batteries out. Larry treated the class to some choice words with his thoughts on my choice of gear, which were all true. It got up and running again the next day after finding a set of batteries that would work for more than an hour, but the moral of the story is the batteries don’t like heat, cold or being stored. So I suppose it’s time to sell the 511. A small dot optic, small form factor optic or adjustable magnification optic will likely replace the 511.}Unquote

Exactly the same experience I have had with my 511 optic. It is sitting on my credenza today, replaced by a Small aperature red dot that is just fine.

LonghunterCO
03-12-08, 20:16
When you all are saying small apature red dot. Do you mean a T1, H1 or what?

subzero
03-12-08, 20:36
The small aperature market, as I see it, consists of the Aimpoint H-1, T-1, etc and the JPoint/Docter style optics.

My mud gun in all it's glory.
http://i25.tinypic.com/fye5cn.jpg

SHIVAN
03-12-08, 21:29
For those who care:

"SSDC" (SHIVAN Short Dot Carbine) weighs 10lbs 5oz w/ AAC M4-2000.

"Naked" Colt LE6920 weighs 6lbs 15oz.

M4-2000 weighs 1lb 2.4oz.

Pinnacle
03-12-08, 21:35
I looked at just about every BFG Vickers sling label in the class. None were worn. I guess they must have all bought them new right before the class. ;)




C4

Clearly none of your slings are treadmill certified.:D

TOrrock
03-12-08, 22:31
Outstanding class, outstanding instructor, oustanding group of guys.

Even with the weather, this was a course I took a lot away from.

I ran a Colt 6920 and a SIG P226 9mm with no equipment issues.

I thought I was over packing when I brought two pairs of boots, but I was damn glad I did.

Danner Ft. Lewis boots were definitely good to go.

It was great meeting fellow mods from all over the country.

I want to thank Drake from Magpul, Grant for putting this all together, Weaponshield for donating some fantastic weapons lube, and of course, Larry, for yanking us out of our comfort zones and really giving us top notch instruction.

So...........when are we doing this again?? :cool:

C4IGrant
03-13-08, 08:37
The small aperature market, as I see it, consists of the Aimpoint H-1, T-1, etc and the JPoint/Docter style optics.

My mud gun in all it's glory.
http://i25.tinypic.com/fye5cn.jpg



What gun??:confused:



C4

C4IGrant
03-13-08, 08:38
Clearly none of your slings are treadmill certified.:D

:D


C4

C4IGrant
03-13-08, 08:39
So...........when are we doing this again?? :cool:

Good question. This will most likely be an annual deal I think.


C4

mark5pt56
03-13-08, 09:45
That would be a great idea Grant.

Count me in.

KDG
03-14-08, 16:31
Great group pic....what a great way for the mods to get to know each other and test your setups.

Looks like you all had a great time.

The weather being harsh was a good thing and a great way to test your kits under adverse conditions.

Wish I was there....

Good reviews on some of the equipment used

I see some are already making changes to thier kits and or buying some new stuff based on how it performed

SHIVAN
03-14-08, 16:59
I see some are already making changes to thier kits and or buying some new stuff based on how it performed

I've basically run the same "kit" since Blackwater 6 or 7 years ago...:eek:

I have refined my usage, and I am looking to step up the concept to a more configurable setup.

I will still be using a belt and chest carrier, just want to get to the molle setup so I can add more as necessary.

carbinero
03-14-08, 18:00
I'm still trying to understand how the Vicker sling is better than one in which one loop straps more tightly around your chest, which is also quick and secure when moving and rotating the carbine under your weak side when transitioning to pistol.

John_Wayne777
03-14-08, 18:35
I'm still trying to understand how the Vicker sling is better than one in which one loop straps more tightly around your chest, which is also quick and secure when moving and rotating the carbine under your weak side when transitioning to pistol.

The slings quick adjust feature is invaluable when you run into a situation where you need to switch shoulders with the weapon or when you need to do a low light transition to a handgun and still need to use the light on the carbine. The ability to VERY quickly adjust the sling out is a good thing.

the1911fan
03-14-08, 21:53
The slings quick adjust feature is invaluable when you run into a situation where you need to switch shoulders with the weapon or when you need to do a low light transition to a handgun and still need to use the light on the carbine. The ability to VERY quickly adjust the sling out is a good thing.

And really good when you are wearing a tactical entry style vest or any body armor for that matter

Sidewinder6
03-15-08, 09:56
When you all are saying small apature red dot. Do you mean a T1, H1 or what?


H1. I am quite happy with it.

9x19
03-15-08, 19:07
Definately not your normal class in any way, shape , or form - shooting the Magpul Masada prototype alone made it unique

I had a great time and kudos to everyone for a great atmosphere - and MAJOR Kudos to Drake and Magpul for attending the class and bringing a prototype gun for everyone to shoot - in the firearms industry that is virtually unheard of and shows a very forward thinking mindset on Magpul's behalf

Cheers

Larry Vickers

www.vickerstactical.com

I have never been more annoyed, disappointed and depressed about getting sick, I was looking forward to this class very much. It sure looks like it was a great experience for my fellow mods and staff. I definitely hope to make the next one.

DrMark
03-15-08, 20:37
Thanks for the pictures and AAR, everyone. Very educational (and a bit jealouy-inspiring)!

Looks like you guys had a great class!

(Some of my magpuls still have red dust in them from that range.)

KevinB
03-15-08, 20:58
And I am pissed that I was on an airplane for 18+hrs during the class...

NEXT time

Jay Cunningham
03-15-08, 21:24
And I am pissed that I was on an airplane for 18+hrs during the class...

NEXT time

We even had beer left over...

BushmasterFanBoy
03-21-08, 12:48
LOL!
I laughed so hard when I saw this. You guys are great, lol. :D I "get" the joke, lol that was good.

I'm glad I can contribute in some way. Maybe I can be rewarded with free admission to a class?







Poser LAV's unworn BFG sling label :D
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/LAV%20unworn%20label.jpg

SHIVAN
03-21-08, 13:00
Maybe I can be rewarded with free admission to a class?

No. Thanks for asking.:cool:

C4IGrant
03-21-08, 13:10
We even had beer left over...

Ya, that was sad. :mad:


C4

BushmasterFanBoy
03-21-08, 13:31
No. Thanks for asking.:cool:

When is the next class and where can I find information about the requirements and cost?

Thanks!

SHIVAN
03-21-08, 13:52
Training and Tactics Forum (http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=11)

There are classes listed at the top. They give explicit directions of how to pursue attending them. Vickers Tactical typically charges $200/day/student.

markm
03-21-08, 15:20
Well... not all bad came of this....

In honor of this thread/class I did a handful of support side shooting with my carbean last week! :D

Jay Cunningham
03-21-08, 19:24
Well... not all bad came of this....

In honor of this thread/class I did a handful of support side shooting with my carbean last week! :D

I plan on shooting support side only with carbine every time I go to the range this year. Then again, I plan on shooting a lot more pistol than carbine.