View Full Version : Don't give up the fight, Here's one reason why
Just got this today in an email, "Gary Marbut" does a LOT for gun rights here in Montana, along with the citizens who write letters, and show up at meetings to voice facts and opinions, to the govt.
From: mssa@mtssa.org
Subject: Good news - more
Dear MSSA Friends,
The following bills passed the House Judiciary Committee today, most on a 12/8, party-line vote:
HB 205 - Remove suppressor prohibition for hunting
HB 240 - Campus carry - deny Board of Regents power to suspend rights
HB 302 - Ban enforcement new fed gun control
HB 303 - Sheriffs First (we lost one R vote - don't know who yet)
HB 304 - Permitless carry (inside cities)
HB 358 - Remove prohibited places for CWP-holders
HB 384 - Clarify student (non)expulsion for firearm locked in vehicle
HB 446 - Revising the crime of Disorderly Conduct (to NOT include "firing firearms") (we gained two D votes - don't know who yet)
These bills will soon be coming to the House floor for Second Reading for debate, possible amendment and vote. On the day before and the morning of Second Reading for each of these bills, we need to be prepared to flood all House members (Representatives) with messages asking for their support.
HB 223, to exempt non-profit shooting ranges from property tax is still in the House Taxation Committee awaiting executive action.
HB 468, to encourage the production of smokeless powder, primers and brass in Montana, is scheduled for public hearing before the House Taxation Committee for next Thursday, 2/21 (NOTE: This may be MSSA's bill with the most far-reaching import for this session. Plan to be there if you can.)
HB 459, to prohibit refusal of medical treatment to a person who declines to provide firearm information, is scheduled for a public hearing before the House Judiciary Committee on next Tuesday, 4/19.
SB 145, to make CWP info private, has passed the Senate and has been sent to the House.
Stay tuned for more ...
Gary Marbut, President
Montana Shooting Sports Association
http://www.mtssa.org
Author, Gun Laws of Montana
http://www.MTPublish.com
Dream come true. I hope every one of those passes for you guys.
Exhibit A of why I want to move!
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 18:18
HB 358 - Remove prohibited places for CWP-holders
That one seems bad. All the other bills you listed seem good. I however don't agree with allowing guns and alcohol to mix for example. Want to drink don't CCW.
Pat
Bolt_Overide
02-16-13, 18:23
HB 358 - Remove prohibited places for CWP-holders
That one seems bad. All the other bills you listed seem good. I however don't agree with allowing guns and alcohol to mix for example. Want to drink don't CCW.
Pat
While I completely agree about mixing guns and booze, I think that I should be assumed to be able to moderate myself. A beer or two over a 4 hour period does nothing to impair my judgement, and the last time I went to a bar (wasn't drinking) I had two Outlaw's try to knife me because they thought I was someone else, guess why they didn't succeed?
HB 358 - Remove prohibited places for CWP-holders
That one seems bad. All the other bills you listed seem good. I however don't agree with allowing guns and alcohol to mix for example. Want to drink don't CCW.
Pat
Yea, because gun free zones are working so well?
Typical cop response to that bill, way to stereotype. Every public park, school, and state or county owned facility is currently questionable or restricted in the state, this clarifies that to only be restricted if there is a noticeable sign saying otherwise. Also removes the prohibitions on bars, restaurants, etc, with the same provision for a sign at the door.
I don't specifically encourage carry in bars, but I personally knew two people killed by people illegally carrying guns at one restaurant and one bowling alley, both that prvented anyone from legally carrying a gun because they served alcohol, so, no, you can **** right off if you think that bill is going to make things so much worse.
Fine if you want to restrict access to a right on your own property, but you're going to have to display a sign that says so.
lethal dose
02-16-13, 19:06
HB 358 - Remove prohibited places for CWP-holders
That one seems bad. All the other bills you listed seem good. I however don't agree with allowing guns and alcohol to mix for example. Want to drink don't CCW.
Pat
With respect, I feel the one should be able to CCW in a liqueur establishment as long as one is not under the influence, themselves.
Without the "This part is wrong" stuff,
The Point Is: "Don't slack Up In Your Fight For Your Rights". And "Don't Loose Faith".
Please don't pick apart what we have gone thru a LOT to get, you don't know the whole circumstances around some of these things here.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 19:34
Yea, because gun free zones are working so well?
Typical cop response to that bill, way to stereotype. Every public park, school, and state or county owned facility is currently questionable or restricted in the state, this clarifies that to only be restricted if there is a noticeable sign saying otherwise. Also removes the prohibitions on bars, restaurants, etc, with the same provision for a sign at the door.
I don't specifically encourage carry in bars, but I personally knew two people killed by people illegally carrying guns at one restaurant and one bowling alley, both that prvented anyone from legally carrying a gun because they served alcohol, so, no, you can **** right off if you think that bill is going to make things so much worse.
Fine if you want to restrict access to a right on your own property, but you're going to have to display a sign that says so.
Sounds like like someone has stereotypes themselves. Also watch your language I did not use 4 letter words in my response to you. I also know that such a bill allowing CCW holders to go into alcohol estabilishments will make things worse.
Anyway I did not mention gun free zones like schools etc. I was very specific and mentioned alcohol consumption and yes based on years of working with idiot drunks I know alcohol and guns don't mix. Just 6 months ago ended up arrested some idiot who brought a gun to a bar. He was also a felon and intoxicated. Disagree all you want but bars are one place people should not be allowed to carry except the staff that works at the bar providing they are not drinking.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 19:36
While I completely agree about mixing guns and booze, I think that I should be assumed to be able to moderate myself. A beer or two over a 4 hour period does nothing to impair my judgement, and the last time I went to a bar (wasn't drinking) I had two Outlaw's try to knife me because they thought I was someone else, guess why they didn't succeed?
Glad you were not hurt. In my experience most people don't know how to moderate themselves hence the DUI arrests we get. Most people feel they are fine when they are impaired.
Pat
Just 6 months ago ended up arrested some idiot who brought a gun to a bar. He was also a felon and intoxicated. Disagree all you want but bars are one place people should not be allowed to carry except the staff.
Pat
Tell me again how a law allowing legal concealed carry would have changed anything in your example?
And if the the bar, restaurant, brewery, or winery wants to prohibit customers legally carrying they are free to put a sign in the door. It's not up to YOU or anyone else to decide that option for them.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 19:45
Tell me again how a law allowing legal concealed carry would have changed anything in your example?
And if the the bar, restaurant, brewery, or winery wants to prohibit customers legally carrying they are free to put a sign in the door. It's not up to YOU or anyone else to decide that option for them.
A resturant is a different matter as people go to resturants to eat, not to get into fights and be stupid. In Alaska you can go to a resturant that serves alcohol and carry your gun provided you are not drinking and I am ok with that. A bar is a primary liquor establishment however and the enviroment is far different and they are a source of a huge percentage of our fight calls and other stupid crimes.
Pat
Pat: Some times you come across as you know whats good for everyone else. You act like a law will keep the criminals from doing something. We don't need/want people with opinions like your's here in our state. Yes, you are still entitled to your opinion, but quite frankly we don't really care what it is any more. I knew when I posted this thread, you would come along and find SOMETHING WRONG, It's just your nature.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 19:48
Pat: Some times you come across as you know whats good for everyone else. You act like a law will keep the criminals from doing something. We don't need/want people with opinions like your's here in our state. Yes, you are still entitled to your opinion, but quite frankly we don't really care what it is any more. I knew when I posted this thread, you would come along and find SOMETHING WRONG, It's just your nature.
Well if your of the opinion than mixing alcohol and guns is a good think I don't really care much about what you have to say either. Frankly supporting a law that would make it legal to mix booze and guns is irresponsible.
You also seemed to have missed that I felt the other laws were a good thing. If your one of those fellows that only respects people who agree with you 100% of the time on everything, well your going to be a disappointed man.
Pat
I keep forgetting that he's always right. Pretty sure dude is trolling. Only on about guns when it's convenient. Pretty much statist about everything else. How many threads must we go through with this nonsense?
On topic.... Two democratic senators and a democratic governor and Montana has zero bad gun bills to work against. Good job Montana. Although there is some bullshit about removing Sex Ed from schools and further restrictions on abortion which any rational person would realize are contradictory to each other!! Otherwise, good work on guns.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 19:59
I keep forgetting that he's always right. Pretty sure dude is trolling. Only on about guns when it's convenient. Pretty much statist about everything else. How many threads must we go through with this nonsense?
On topic.... Two democratic senators and a democratic governor and Montana has zero bad gun bills to work against. Good job Montana. Although there is some bullshit about removing Sex Ed from schools and further restrictions on abortion which any rational person would realize are contradictory to each other!! Otherwise, good work on guns.
Trolling? and you are the one using personal insults and four letter words. This forum is about discusson which by its very nature is going to have people disagreeing at times. People like yourself need to learn how to disagree without getting personal.
Pat
GeorgiaBoy
02-16-13, 20:07
Pat: Some times you come across as you know whats good for everyone else. You act like a law will keep the criminals from doing something.
Does this mean we shouldn't have laws at all? About anything?
HB 358 - Remove prohibited places for CWP-holders
That one seems bad. All the other bills you listed seem good. I however don't agree with allowing guns and alcohol to mix for example. Want to drink don't CCW.
Pat
What about the guy who wants to sit in the bar, watch the game, talk to chicks and drink one freaking beer? How about we treat public intox as public intox and leave everyone else to drive, ccw or whatever.
Glad you were not hurt. In my experience most people don't know how to moderate themselves hence the DUI arrests we get. Most people feel they are fine when they are impaired.
Pat
And that is why we have LEOs to find those people and make sure they aren't driving, carrying weapons, peeing in somebodies pool or having random arguments at 2am with imaginary people.
Does this mean we shouldn't have laws at all? About anything?
We just don't need stupid, pointless ones that don't accomplish anything or improve the situation they were created to address.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 20:26
What about the guy who wants to sit in the bar, watch the game, talk to chicks and drink one freaking beer? How about we treat public intox as public intox and leave everyone else to drive, ccw or whatever.
Public intox is not allowed as a law anymore because "Alcoholoism is a disease". So all we can do with them is take them into protective custody. I know you disagree on this but there are just some things that don't mix alcohol and guns being one of them. Not many people can go to the bar and drink just one beer. Most of the DUI arrests I have made the defendant swears Officer I just had 1 or 2 beers.
Pat
sinlessorrow
02-16-13, 21:08
Public intox is not allowed as a law anymore because "Alcoholoism is a disease". So all we can do with them is take them into protective custody. I know you disagree on this but there are just some things that don't mix alcohol and guns being one of them. Not many people can go to the bar and drink just one beer. Most of the DUI arrests I have made the defendant swears Officer I just had 1 or 2 beers.
Pat
You are forgetting designated drivers who do not drink. What about getting drunk at home withguns around? You know since most people dont just have one drink at home, we should make a law that says if you drink at home your guns have to be somehwere else since you know guns and alcahol dont mix.
Since DUI is illegal we should ban cars from bars that way no one would drive home drunk.
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 21:11
You are forgetting designated drivers who do not drink. What about getting drunk at home withguns around?
Since DUI is illegal we should ban cars from bars that way no one would drive home drunk.
If your drunk in your home so long as you don't have the gun on our person your fine at least that is how it works here and I think thats fair. I would actually be for ignition interlock devices being standard equipment on all cars. Just make them that way. DUI's kill more than people misusing guns by far. Lost my brother to DUI.
pat
Traveshamockery
02-16-13, 21:49
HB 358 - Remove prohibited places for CWP-holders
That one seems bad. All the other bills you listed seem good. I however don't agree with allowing guns and alcohol to mix for example. Want to drink don't CCW.
Pat
I shouldn't be allowed to carry because a guy on the other side of the room is having a beer?
Alaskapopo
02-16-13, 23:06
I shouldn't be allowed to carry because a guy on the other side of the room is having a beer?
I do bar checks every night I work and I can count on one hand how many times I have come across someone not drinking. The reality is people go to the bars to drink. Drinking and guns don't mix.
Pat
Big surprise, everyone here is mostly on the same page of personal freedom and responsibility, one guy insists that everyone is wrong and he knows better. Just like every third thread in general discussion.
And how about silencers for hunting? HB-205, what's wrong with that one pat?
How about high schoolers having guns kept in their cars on campus? Big problems with that one too?
Oh I bet Sheriffs First law you have absolutely no problems with!
MountainRaven
02-16-13, 23:22
HB 358 - Remove prohibited places for CWP-holders
That one seems bad. All the other bills you listed seem good. I however don't agree with allowing guns and alcohol to mix for example. Want to drink don't CCW.
Pat
The root of this thread's disagreement seems to stem from your lack of knowledge regarding Montana's firearms laws, Pat. And it's equally true of the other posters, here, or surely one of them would have pointed it out. Not an insult, just an observation. I surely have no idea about the particulars of firearms regulation in Alaska....
In the State of Montana, it is illegal to carry concealed into bars... but perfectly legal for the same person to walk into that same bar with the same gun on their hip... so long as it isn't covered by clothing. In other words, it's legal to openly carry a firearm into a Montana bar but illegal to carry one concealed. (And it's still legal if the firearm is in a 'bag', which could be a gun case or a purse.)
The same is true of banks. I'm sure the legislation is intended to also deal with college campuses and the like.
As for Mister Marbut, I'm glad he's doing some good this year and I happily agree with him on many issues, but he's a bit of a nutter. Not least of all because he tried to defund Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks and take away the ability of game wardens to enforce the law (if they caught someone doing something naughty, they were expected, under Marbut's proposed legislation, to basically sit on their thumbs and wait for the county sheriff to show up).
ETA: Many bars in Montana are actually bar and grills. Most of them are family-friendly and if you're in BF-Nowhere, Montana (or even in transit from one city to another) they're pretty much the only place to get warm food. In other words, if you are enjoying a nice weekend fishing on Canyon Ferry with your kids, pretty much the only option for food (without driving for nearly an hour to get to Helena) is O'Malleys, a bar and grill. Now, bar and grills are a legal gray area, but in order to be 100% in the right, you would have to disarm before you go in to get yourself and your family some cheeseburgers.
ETA2: And make no mistake, most of this legislation is written by Marbut or another Helena lobbyist. Most of the legislation brought forth by our 'new and improved Tea Party' legislature last go-around was literally written by the lobbyists and just handed off to the legislators who introduced it. To the point where the legislators would ask that any questions regarding the legislation be forwarded to the lobbyist(s) in question, as they had no knowledge of what the bill they themselves had sponsored.
OK: We ALL have OPINIONS, and no one is going to key board their OPINION into another persons head to change their OPINION. The carry any where here is NOT about bars, but quite a few other places.
THE POINT I WANTED TO GET AT IS/WAS: Don't give up the fight or hope, this has taken a lot of people, a lot of time, and effort, with out getting altitudes over discussions with the state.
DON'T GIVE UP! :)
I also know that such a bill allowing CCW holders to go into alcohol estabilishments will make things worse.
Really there is no such law here in Colorado and I carry a pistol every time that I have been to a bar in the last 13 years, I typically don't drink at all, and provide transportation for friends. I have never seen a problem nor even heard of a CCW holder causing one. Then for an example of banning lawful CCW in a bar you cite a drunk felon carrying a gun...
Just 6 months ago ended up arrested some idiot who brought a gun to a bar. He was also a felon and intoxicated.
I can't even follow the logic behind that. Did you think that if there was a law prohibiting CCW permit holders from carrying in a bar that the drunk felon would have complied?
Had you been drinking when you wrote your post?
Cameron
As for Mister Marbut, I'm glad he's doing some good this year and I happily agree with him on many issues, but he's a bit of a nutter.
Heh, you and I would get along great! :)
He is a nice enough guy, but not exactly the face you want attached to your movement. He can be, abrasive, a little too sure of his own authority. But, he is doing mostly good work so that's all the really matters.
Yea, no one that's ever spent time in Babb, Browning, Fraisier, Wolf Point or Eureka would argue you'd be any safer with laws prohibiting concealed carry. Which isn't exactly fair to list reservation towns, more sad really, but where there is poverty there is crime regardless of the underlying reasons. Still, as a white guy with no other great means of defense, if I go to a town where I'm disliked by default, it's night, I'm alone, and I just want a burger, I see no issue with me carrying a gun legally concealed. Much bigger problem if I go in open carrying.
And good point about open carry. I'd further that in no state that has "alcohol carry" (heh) has there been massive up takes in shootings. To argue otherwise is the exact claim antis use! "Allow this and there will be blood in the streets!" It hasn't ever happened.
One other note, this guns around alcohol thing should still only apply to concealed carry permit holders EVEN IF constitutional carry passes. Meaning if everything goes through, you would be able to carry without a permit, but still not in bars.
Alaskapopo
02-17-13, 03:53
Really there is no such law here in Colorado and I carry a pistol every time that I have been to a bar in the last 13 years, I typically don't drink at all, and provide transportation for friends. I have never seen a problem nor even heard of a CCW holder causing one. Then for an example of banning lawful CCW in a bar you cite a drunk felon carrying a gun...
I can't even follow the logic behind that. Did you think that if there was a law prohibiting CCW permit holders from carrying in a bar that the drunk felon would have complied?
Had you been drinking when you wrote your post?
Cameron
I don't drink at all. Guns and alcohol don't mix period. Anyone for introducing and allowing firearms to a group of intoxicated diminished judgement people must be intoxicated themselves.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-17-13, 04:00
Big surprise, everyone here is mostly on the same page of personal freedom and responsibility, one guy insists that everyone is wrong and he knows better. Just like every third thread in general discussion.
And how about silencers for hunting? HB-205, what's wrong with that one pat?
How about high schoolers having guns kept in their cars on campus? Big problems with that one too?
Oh I bet Sheriffs First law you have absolutely no problems with!
You seem to want to make this thread about me rather than debating the issue. Did I say anything about hunting with suppressors or anything else? Grow up and learn to deal with disagreement. :rolleyes:
Pat
CarlosDJackal
02-17-13, 10:39
HB 358 - Remove prohibited places for CWP-holders
That one seems bad. All the other bills you listed seem good. I however don't agree with allowing guns and alcohol to mix for example. Want to drink don't CCW.
Pat
I agree. They need to amend this so that it specifies that anyone doing should not consume any alcohol.
A couple of years ago the Commonwealth of Virginia did exactly this and it has so far been a success. Anyone who is legally carrying a concealed handgun becomes the default Designated Driver.
I don't drink at all. Guns and alcohol don' mix period. Anyone for introducing and allowing firearms to a group of intoxicated diminished judgement people must be intoxicated themselves.
Pat
So when I carry my concealed handgun into a room, I am actually introducing and allowing my firearm to the group?
With that logic do you remove your firearm before walking into a bar?
The problem is that you are equating being in a bar, with being intoxicated, which makes no sense. If you see someone walk out of a bar and then drive off in a car are they now immediately guilty of driving under the influence? Would we have to prove they were actually impared? I have carried concealed into bars and nightclubs in Colorado and elsewhere for more than 10 years and never had a problem. I have also never been under the influence of alcohol and carried or driven.
Magic_Salad0892
02-17-13, 11:09
I'm of the opinion that you should be able to carry anywhere you want provided you blow under a .08.
So by supporting a carry ban in a bar, "Because someone at one time may have shot someone while in a bar and or intoxicated" is like saying, "Well, someone shot someone with an Assault Rifle, so we need to ban ALL assault weapons". Just because of a verrrry minute few, we need to screw every other law abiding citizen. Thats BS, and we all know it. So if someone is so damn adamant about "Guns and Alcohol Don't Mix", then go to Chicago, and get right down the POLICE Unions, and those who passed such a contract, Throats for ALLOWING the Police to work with HALF the legal limit of "ALCOHOL" in their blood, with guns, and vehicles! Where's you damn campaign against that one? Maybe, we should ban "Alcohol", look what good that could do, and that one goes way beyond outside any bar, and guns.
Traveshamockery
02-17-13, 12:27
I do bar checks every night I work and I can count on one hand how many times I have come across someone not drinking. The reality is people go to the bars to drink. Drinking and guns don't mix.
Pat
Bar owners should be allowed to individually choose to prohibit weapons in their establishment. Private property rights should trump my right to carry if it's clearly posted. That said, I see no reason for a blanket prohibition on carrying in restaurants that serve alcohol, which is what my original post referenced.
Alaskapopo
02-17-13, 12:57
So by supporting a carry ban in a bar, "Because someone at one time may have shot someone while in a bar and or intoxicated" is like saying, "Well, someone shot someone with an Assault Rifle, so we need to ban ALL assault weapons". Just because of a verrrry minute few, we need to screw every other law abiding citizen. Thats BS, and we all know it. So if someone is so damn adamant about "Guns and Alcohol Don't Mix", then go to Chicago, and get right down the POLICE Unions, and those who passed such a contract, Throats for ALLOWING the Police to work with HALF the legal limit of "ALCOHOL" in their blood, with guns, and vehicles! Where's you damn campaign against that one? Maybe, we should ban "Alcohol", look what good that could do, and that one goes way beyond outside any bar, and guns.
So you think because I am a cop I support cops being able to drink on duty. News flash I don't. And not its not just a few that mess up with alcohol involved. Over 90% of our calls are alcohol related. Alcohol reduces peoples IQ very quickly.
Pat
MountainRaven
02-17-13, 13:34
Bar owners should be allowed to individually choose to prohibit weapons in their establishment. Private property rights should trump my right to carry if it's clearly posted. That said, I see no reason for a blanket prohibition on carrying in restaurants that serve alcohol, which is what my original post referenced.
I disagree. "Shall not be infringed."
Alaskapopo
02-17-13, 13:41
I disagree. "Shall not be infringed."
Your rights end where another persons begins. The analogy is your right to swing your fist ends before it hits another persons nose. If a business owner does not want guns in his store he has every right to tell you to leave or put a sign up saying their not allowed.
Pat
Magic_Salad0892
02-17-13, 13:42
Your rights end where another persons begins. The analogy is your right to swing your fist ends before it hits another persons nose. If a business owner does not want guns in his store he has every right to tell you to leave or put a sign up saying their not allowed.
Pat
I agree. If the business owner doesn't want you carrying on his property, then it's your obligation not to do so.
OK then. DAMN, all I wanted to do was give everyone inspiration to NOT give up the fight for rights. NOT start a ****ing argument (to which I let Pat sucker me into, shame on me) about picking apart what they are getting passed in another state. Opinions can be like assholes, we all have one, and they all stink. We don't need any more double talking out both sides of the keyboards anymore. If you don't agree with what another state wants, then stay in your own state, and push YOUR state to not pass whatever bills your just not comfortable with, but leave the others alone.
Alaskapopo
02-17-13, 15:20
OK then. DAMN, all I wanted to do was give everyone inspiration to NOT give up the fight for rights. NOT start a ****ing argument (to which I let Pat sucker me into, shame on me) about picking apart what they are getting passed in another state. Opinions can be like assholes, we all have one, and they all stink. We don't need any more double talking out both sides of the keyboards anymore. If you don't agree with what another state wants, then stay in your own state, and push YOUR state to not pass whatever bills your just not comfortable with, but leave the others alone.
If you don't want a topic discussed with possible disagreement then don't post it. Its almost funny you post a topic and someone replies that the bills look good except for one and then you jump down their throat. Its like you can not handle any disagreement.
Pat
MountainRaven
02-17-13, 16:22
Your rights end where another persons begins. The analogy is your right to swing your fist ends before it hits another persons nose. If a business owner does not want guns in his store he has every right to tell you to leave or put a sign up saying their not allowed.
Pat
Right. That's why we allow businesses to put up signs that say, "Whites Only".
Oh, wait. We don't.
It's life, liberty, then property, not the other way around.
If you don't want a topic discussed with possible disagreement then don't post it. Its almost funny you post a topic and someone replies that the bills look good except for one and then you jump down their throat. Its like you can not handle any disagreement.
Pat
Didn't you jump down our throat for something you just can't seem to understand? NOT EVERYONE in MT, goes to a bar to drink. AND it's not just about bars here, there are a lot of other no carry places here besides bars. So don't give me your "Holier Than Thou Frickin Altitude". You've stated your opinion, so why the hell keep repeating it? It appears you love to bait people for your own agenda, and I will not respond to any more of your baiting. Here's a "Suggestion", "TRY to find the positive in life, instead of the NEGATIVE". I learned some things from you when you used to post in technical info, but now you just seem to want to take the negative side of everything. We're not enemies dude. You have your opinion, others have their opinion, and neither is going to change, so why keep a worthless pissin match going?
HB 358 - Remove prohibited places for CWP-holders
That one seems bad. All the other bills you listed seem good. I however don't agree with allowing guns and alcohol to mix for example. Want to drink don't CCW.
Pat
FL allows CCW holders to carry in restaurants that serve alcohol and one may even have a drink provided you do not become intoxicated. It is treated the same as driving a car. If you are over the BAC for driving, you are over the limit to carry a concealed handgun.
I think this is sound practice.
And really, if a CCW holder is not consuming any alcohol I think it should not matter where they carry. I know plenty of people who go out to bars for the social aspect, but don't drink. If I am of sound mind and judgement, I should be able to carry anywhere.
PA PATRIOT
02-17-13, 16:49
Your rights end where another persons begins. The analogy is your right to swing your fist ends before it hits another persons nose. If a business owner does not want guns in his store he has every right to tell you to leave or put a sign up saying their not allowed.
Pat
Right. That's why we allow businesses to put up signs that say, "Whites Only".
Oh, wait. We don't.
It's life, liberty, then property, not the other way around.
I do know in PA that if a property owner posts a ""No Guns" sign on a property or building and one enters that location armed then a arrest with a charge of Defiant Trespass can be imposed which is third-degree misdemeanor.
If a business owner does not want guns in his store he has every right to tell you to leave or put a sign up saying their not allowed.
Pat
However, if a CCW holder breaks the wishes of the store owner there should be no legal repercussion. Again, in FL businesses can suggest that no concealed weapons are allowed, but they have no legal recourse if one goes against their wishes. They could refuse service and subsequently claim trespassing, but there are no provisions in our CCW laws to give them any other recourse.
In other states, NC included, if a store owner posts a sign banning concealed firearms from their premises, under the CCW law the CCW holder is guilty of a misdemeanor if they go against the wishes of the store owner. I believe this is wrong.
Less laws are better than more. I think it reasonable for a store owner to refuse service, but there should be no crime committed by silently going against the request of the store owner.
PA PATRIOT
02-17-13, 17:58
However, if a CCW holder breaks the wishes of the store owner there should be no legal repercussion. Again, in FL businesses can suggest that no concealed weapons are allowed, but they have no legal recourse if one goes against their wishes. They could refuse service and subsequently claim trespassing, but there are no provisions in our CCW laws to give them any other recourse.
In other states, NC included, if a store owner posts a sign banning concealed firearms from their premises, under the CCW law the CCW holder is guilty of a misdemeanor if they go against the wishes of the store owner. I believe this is wrong.
Less laws are better than more. I think it reasonable for a store owner to refuse service, but there should be no crime committed by silently going against the request of the store owner.
I don't agree, why would you have the right to violate the wishes of the property owner and then there be no legal ramification to your actions?
As we wish that others respect are CCW rights then we should in turn respect the wishes of the property owners who do not want firearms on there property.
If I was to handle that situation here in PA with the CCW being that much of a ass of disrespecting the property owner when there was a clear, plainly obvious "No Guns" sign posted and the property owner wanted to make a complaint then the CCW would have to explain him or her self in a court and a CCW review board.
While I am 100% 2A I do not and will not allow CCW's to do "STUPID" and or "Unlawful Acts" with a gun which cast a dark cloud over the heads of other CCW holders in the state.
Its all about respect on both sides of the issue.
Alaskapopo
02-17-13, 20:01
Right. That's why we allow businesses to put up signs that say, "Whites Only".
Oh, wait. We don't.
It's life, liberty, then property, not the other way around.
Totally different issue. Discrimination based on race is illegal and immoral. Not allowing people to be armed on your personal property is not discrimination. While I won't shop at such places its their right to post those signs. Their property rights come before your 2nd amendment rights. Don't like it don't shop there.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-17-13, 20:02
However, if a CCW holder breaks the wishes of the store owner there should be no legal repercussion. Again, in FL businesses can suggest that no concealed weapons are allowed, but they have no legal recourse if one goes against their wishes. They could refuse service and subsequently claim trespassing, but there are no provisions in our CCW laws to give them any other recourse.
In other states, NC included, if a store owner posts a sign banning concealed firearms from their premises, under the CCW law the CCW holder is guilty of a misdemeanor if they go against the wishes of the store owner. I believe this is wrong.
Less laws are better than more. I think it reasonable for a store owner to refuse service, but there should be no crime committed by silently going against the request of the store owner.
The trespass is enough. Call the police have us give him a criminal trespass advisement and if he ever steps foot in that business again he is going to jail.
Pat
CarlosDJackal
02-17-13, 20:34
I'm of the opinion that you should be able to carry anywhere you want provided you blow under a .08.
I disagree. First of all, there have been a lot of individuals who ended up prosecuted for DUI because they thought they only drank enough alcohol to blow below a .08.
Anyone who carries and chooses to drink ANY amount of alcohol is an idiot because they are opening themselves up to legal troubles. If you end up in a self-defensive shoot, one of the things that will be noted is if you've had a drink prior to the incident. Chances are, they will give you a toxicology test as a part of the investigation.
While this should not be a factor in the criminal investigation. It is very much guaranteed that it WILL be a factor in any civil case. It will not take much for any Civil Lawyer to put a little doubt in any juror's mind. Is this possibility really worth a little alcohol?
CarlosDJackal
02-17-13, 20:35
Right. That's why we allow businesses to put up signs that say, "Whites Only".
Oh, wait. We don't.
It's life, liberty, then property, not the other way around.
Since when is carrying a firearm the same as being born a certain race? :rolleyes:
If someone is responsible enough and trusted to carry their firearm in public in general, that same person should be trusted to do the same in the presence of alcohol.
If someone is responsible enough and trusted to carry their firearm in public in general, that same person should be trusted to do the same in the presence of alcohol.
The Government has no business being involved in either of these examples.
I don't agree, why would you have the right to violate the wishes of the property owner and then there be no legal ramification to your actions?
As we wish that others respect are CCW rights then we should in turn respect the wishes of the property owners who do not want firearms on there property.
If I was to handle that situation here in PA with the CCW being that much of a ass of disrespecting the property owner when there was a clear, plainly obvious "No Guns" sign posted and the property owner wanted to make a complaint then the CCW would have to explain him or her self in a court and a CCW review board.
While I am 100% 2A I do not and will not allow CCW's to do "STUPID" and or "Unlawful Acts" with a gun which cast a dark cloud over the heads of other CCW holders in the state.
Its all about respect on both sides of the issue.
But in FL if the store owner has no idea you are carrying, you are doing nothing illegal by entering his/her place of business. There is no court or CCW review board for this matter because the CCW law is not written as such.
Now if they know you are carrying and ask you to leave, that is another matter entirely and I would of course respect their request.
The Government has no business being involved in either of these examples.
Right.
I'm just saying in general, if a man is responsible enough to carry a weapon safely, the factor of alcohol should not change anything.
Sadly, there are a lot of irresponsible gun owners and irresponsible drinkers.
Alaskapopo
02-18-13, 01:30
The Government has no business being involved in either of these examples.
Yes it does as has been exampled by the human condition and billions of alcohol related crimes and shootings.
Pat
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.