View Full Version : 1 lower, 2 uppers
cthompson36
02-17-13, 16:30
Hey guys, I built a primarily palmetto state armory AR over the summer, and I love it. I built it to shoot out further than I could with my .22, so I bought a red dot, and a scope for it. I was planning on seeing which I liked better and using that and selling or demoting the other. My problem is I love them both for different uses so I decided to try to find another upper and keep both. My question is this, what uppers (brands and calibers) are good for a scope, and also, is it an issue to use 1 BCG between 2 uppers?
5.56 right? I have a very similar setup. One upper has an EOTECH on it and the other has a Leopold Mark AR 3x9. FWIW I have a cheap DSA upper on one setup and more or less a Daniels Defense upper on the other. They both shoot about the same at roughly 1.5MOA. The Daniels Defense upper is slightly tighter but not significantly. The one difference I have noticed is my DD upper has a better bolt and it is wearing better than the DSA bolt. Maybe that is where the price difference will show up? Each upper has about six hundred rounds through it.
Generally around here Daniels Defense and Bravo Company USA get the nod as well as a few others.
Texpatriate
02-17-13, 16:52
You'll want to run separate BCG's in each upper, it would be best not to share. The BCG is the highest wear parts group in the AR-15 system and most prone to failure, and you may also have issues with head spacing.
cthompson36
02-17-13, 16:58
I know BCM and DD are highly reguarded as great uppers, but from what I've seen most people on this forum don't use their rifles as much with scopes as much as they do RDS and irons, so are there other brands that are more build with scopes in mind? I know DPMS isn't highly thought of, but I saw they had that high-top model to accomodate scopes better. Thats the kind of thing I'm curious about. Also would I be better off with a 18 or 20"? Thanks for the info about BCG's, and I'll probably get another then eventually. I shoot maybe 200 rds a year since I'm in college so I'll just put that off a few months until the craze dies down.
Find a dedicated bcg for each upper
What do you mean better for use with scopes? Like better accuracy or just a flat top receiver and lo-pro gas block?
Hey guys, I built a primarily palmetto state armory AR over the summer, and I love it. I built it to shoot out further than I could with my .22, so I bought a red dot, and a scope for it. I was planning on seeing which I liked better and using that and selling or demoting the other. My problem is I love them both for different uses so I decided to try to find another upper and keep both. My question is this, what uppers (brands and calibers) are good for a scope, and also, is it an issue to use 1 BCG between 2 uppers?
You don't need two different uppers to use both a red dot and a magnified scope.
Just get some nice quick release mounts that will hold zero for those optics and switch back and forth. Something QR from LaRue Tactical would fit the bill nicely, for example.
Or get a nice variable power illuminated reticle scope that has a "true 1x" bottom end and 4x or 6x on the top end and you can probably do both with just the one optic.
It's the nature of this site. These guys tend to be oriented towards CQB and police tactics. If you are into hunting or sharp shooting then a scope is up your alley, but there are not a ton of people on this site into that aspect of AR shooting. In theory the longer the barrel the more accurate. Stainless tends to be the most accurate with the shortest useful life. Chroming prolongs barrel life at the cost of accuracy. And there are a bunch of other things to consider but not get hung up on. I do know I was more accurate with a true M16A1 than I am with a 16" M4 but I was also a lot younger when I was shooting it. There are 20" match barrels out there if you want one just to shoot the tightest group possible. As far as brand goes just choose a quality brand and you will be fine. They all make short and long barrels. There are not too many truly bad brands around these days like ten or twelve years ago.
What do you mean better for use with scopes? Like better accuracy or just a flat top receiver and lo-pro gas block?
He means long range shooting.
Hey guys, I built a primarily palmetto state armory AR over the summer, and I love it. I built it to shoot out further than I could with my .22, so I bought a red dot, and a scope for it. I was planning on seeing which I liked better and using that and selling or demoting the other. My problem is I love them both for different uses so I decided to try to find another upper and keep both. My question is this, what uppers (brands and calibers) are good for a scope, and also, is it an issue to use 1 BCG between 2 uppers?
Be more specific.
Use the search button and just look around, here and in the optics specific sub forum. I suspect there is a lot of relatively basic stuff you could stand to improve your knowledge base on, and that doing so will answer some/all of your questions or at least allow you to ask much better and more specific questions.
It's the nature of this site. These guys tend to be oriented towards CQB and police tactics. If you are into hunting or sharp shooting then a scope is up your alley, but there are not a ton of people on this site into that aspect of AR shooting. In theory the longer the barrel the more accurate. Stainless tends to be the most accurate with the shortest useful life. Chroming prolongs barrel life at the cost of accuracy. And there are a bunch of other things to consider but not get hung up on. I do know I was more accurate with a true M16A1 than I am with a 16" M4 but I was also a lot younger when I was shooting it. There are 20" match barrels out there if you want one just to shoot the tightest group possible. As far as brand goes just choose a quality brand and you will be fine. They all make short and long barrels. There are not too many truly bad brands around these days like ten or twelve years ago.
Longer barrel means higher velocity, not necessarily better accuracy.
He means long range shooting.
And I know he means "long range" shooting. My question still stands. Some brands like DPMS and Bushy offer "optics ready" models that just have a flat top and low pro gas block but doesn't necessarily mean anything about extending range or accuracy.
OP - as Warp said, more specific. How far are you looking to shoot and what would you consider to be accurate?
Just get some nice quick release mounts that will hold zero for those optics and switch back and forth. Something QR from LaRue Tactical would fit the bill nicely, for example.
+1.
NYH1.
I had a single lower and two complete uppers (Each had own BCG, CH, ect) one set up for 0-200 the other for 200 and beyond, at one point. Worked well, same trigger, and everything and all that. However, two complete uppers and a single lower in my experience ends up breeding two rifles as another lower isn't, or at least wasn't that much, and dedicated set ups are nice.
Find a dedicated bcg for each upper
This, but at a minimum use a different bolt for each.
...the longer the barrel the more accurate.
Barrel length does not affect accuracy
Stainless tends to be the most accurate with the shortest useful life.
No. The quality of the barrel determines accuracy. A stainless steel barrel isn't more accurate than a chromoly or chromoly vanadium barrel. In fact, some benchrest shooters feel a CM or CMV barrel is more accurate than a barrel made of stainless. But the SS barrel holds it's accuracy for a greater number of shots. A CM or CMV barrel loses accuracy slowly but steadily. A SS barrel holds it's accuracy longer, but when does lose accuracy, it's sudden.
cthompson36, Warp gave you the best advice. Stay with a single upper for now and use quick release mounts to switch optics. Use the money saved to buy ammo & shoot. A 16" barrel gives an AR plenty of reach. This weekend, I tried a long range AR a friend built, equipped with a high magnification scope & 16" barrel and easily made shots out to 500 yards on rocks about the size of 55 gallon drums. In fact, I was able to hit the same rocks using a 16" carbine with just a 4 minute red dot and steel cased ammo.
If you are going to only shoot 200 rounds a year, you will see no benefit from a second upper no matter how suited it is for long range shooting. Buy ammo instead and shoot more with what you've got.
Ammo before accessories. Shoot before modifying. You'll be a better rifleman and soon learn if it's worth going to a better barrel
cthompson36
02-17-13, 20:54
I'll look into nicer mounts. If the price isn't a whole lot different I might just use it as another excuse to get a BCM ;) but by saying more geared to a scope I mean a more precise upper, with things like heavy barrel, probably stainless, flattop, etc. Thanks for the advice guys, guess I need to do some more homework on this.
Would something like this:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SS410-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid16%20ss410.htm
and maybe a magpul handguard work? and would the FSB interfere with the scope?
I'll look into nicer mounts. If the price isn't a whole lot different I might just use it as another excuse to get a BCM ;) but by saying more geared to a scope I mean a more precise upper, with things like heavy barrel, probably stainless, flattop, etc. Thanks for the advice guys, guess I need to do some more homework on this.
Would something like this:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SS410-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid16%20ss410.htm
and maybe a magpul handguard work? and would the FSB interfere with the scope?
I would think so (to the interference). Also, the MOE is not a free float rail. If you want something for distance, you'll want FF. What distances are you looking at?
cthompson36
02-17-13, 21:13
I totally spaced that thsoe aren't free floated. I guess I'll get a freefloat tube then. I'm looking at maybe up to 300 yards max
I totally spaced that thsoe aren't free floated. I guess I'll get a freefloat tube then. I'm looking at maybe up to 300 yards max
What kind of precision/MOA are you expecting? What ammo? Supported (bench rest, sand bags, bipod etc) or field positions?
You mentioned a heavy barrel. What perceived advantage do you see from a heavy barrel?
Flat top upper...are there any uppers out there you would ever even look twice at that aren't flat top?
cthompson36
02-17-13, 21:37
I'm not expecting extreme precision. I use federal ammo mostly. I'm going to be using either a bipod or some sort of rest. I've heard that a heavy barrel is better for accuracy because it doesn't flex as much. Can I mount a scope on anything other than a flat top?
I'm not expecting extreme precision. I use federal ammo mostly. I'm going to be using either a bipod or some sort of rest. I've heard that a heavy barrel is better for accuracy because it doesn't flex as much. Can I mount a scope on anything other than a flat top?
He's saying that damn near every manufacturer that puts out quality rifles sells them with flat top receivers. For 300m and Federal ammo just get a quality rifle. Stainless and all of that other stuff isn't necessary for that range or ammo.
I'm not expecting extreme precision. I use federal ammo mostly. I'm going to be using either a bipod or some sort of rest. I've heard that a heavy barrel is better for accuracy because it doesn't flex as much. Can I mount a scope on anything other than a flat top?
You need to quantify what it is that you are expecting.
He's saying that damn near every manufacturer that puts out quality rifles sells them with flat top receivers. For 300m and Federal ammo just get a quality rifle. Stainless and all of that other stuff isn't necessary for that range or ammo.
Correct. That's what I'm saying and what everybody else who has read this thread was thinking: It's going to be a flat top, not sure why you are asking/worrying about that.
Longer barrel means higher velocity, not necessarily better accuracy.
And I know he means "long range" shooting. My question still stands. Some brands like DPMS and Bushy offer "optics ready" models that just have a flat top and low pro gas block but doesn't necessarily mean anything about extending range or accuracy.
OP - as Warp said, more specific. How far are you looking to shoot and what would you consider to be accurate?
Fair enough.
I'm not expecting extreme precision. I use federal ammo mostly. I'm going to be using either a bipod or some sort of rest. I've heard that a heavy barrel is better for accuracy because it doesn't flex as much. Can I mount a scope on anything other than a flat top?
I'm shooting 8" groups at 300 yards with a Daniels Defense light weight barrel. I need to try with better ammunition though. I was using the Israeli Independence 55GRN stuff which I have found not to be consistent lot to lot.
cthompson36
02-18-13, 09:28
Well to have my scope on my current flattop, I had to buy a riser because it didn't clear the rail. Even with high rings. So i was wondering if there were guns more purpose built for a scope instead of a red dot.
Well to have my scope on my current flattop, I had to buy a riser because it didn't clear the rail. Even with high rings. So i was wondering if there were guns more purpose built for a scope instead of a red dot.
What is it?
Well to have my scope on my current flattop, I had to buy a riser because it didn't clear the rail. Even with high rings. So i was wondering if there were guns more purpose built for a scope instead of a red dot.
That is simply a matter of using the correct mount for your optic.
It has nothing to do with the gun being 'built for' a red dot or for a scope.
Can you please quantify what you are expecting, accuracy/precision wise, out of the rifle?
By quantify I mean numbers. Facts. Not subjective undefined terms like "extreme precision".
What do you expect/want to get out of the rifle?
People here are trying to help you, trying to hold you by the hand, but you aren't being very helpful. If you put shit in, you get shit out.
cthompson36
02-18-13, 20:06
as far as accuracy goes, an inch at 100 yards would be nice, but the best I can reasonably get would be awesome. I just have a nikon p-223 on it for now, but might upgrade to something nicer when the funds become available. I know my question is vague, but it just seems that there would have to be uppers that are more useful with a scope, and others that are more useful with a red dot. For instance, what barrel length should I look into? I'm not intending on carrying this rifle or using it for anything other than paper punching at a range, so weight isn't a factor, and neither is portability. So are the same companies (DD BCM etc) that are good for general use with a red dot good for more ranged use too?
An inch is pretty optimistic for an AR15 @ 100 yards, even with a quality gun. 1.5 to 2.5 MOA is little more realistic.
cthompson36
02-18-13, 21:14
it is? I always hear about people getting that kind of accuracy. either way, 2 inches would make me happy. The only reason I don't like my red dot at range is the dot covers such a large area I can't get any kind of accuracy at a range.
An inch is pretty optimistic for an AR15 @ 100 yards, even with a quality gun. 1.5 to 2.5 MOA is little more realistic.
Damn. Someone shoulda told my AR that.
I sure don't read that. Most people I have read say about 2.5 is typical. Some guns achieve 1.5. With good ammunition in a 5 round group I see about 1.5 MOA with my DD barrel upper. It will stack two or three rounds then one is off a bit and the next one a little more. I suppose if you only count three rounds then sub-MOA is achievable but I think 5 rounds is considered a fairly standard test for this type of rifle vs a bolt for hunting would be 3 rounds.
Again, shoot before modifying.
Your posts show a lack of experience. Nothing wrong with that, all of us had to start someplace. You could buy the most accurate upper in the world, yet you will see no improvement in your groups because of your lack of experience. Shoot what you have! Stop worrying about bull barrels, free float tubes and barrel lengths. Shoot what you have. Shoot it until you get good enough that what you have is holding back your progression. Shoot what you have until the experience you gain shows you what improvements, if any, your rifle needs.
Barrel length and profile does not determine accuracy. Length affects velocity. Profile affects consistency. Experience will teach you this. At this point, you do not have any clue if you upper isn't aleady accurate enough for your needs.
The size of your dot does not determine the size of the groups you shoot. Service Rifle Match shooters consistently get groups smaller than the area their front sight covers. I have a 4 minute dot on my carbine. It is NOT too big. With experience and coaching, you'll find the dot isn't a handicap at all.
That's not to say a scope does afford the shooter greater precision.
What you need to do, is find a mount that will let you mount a scope to your upper and see how that works. Wring what you can out of that before thinking about free float tubes or monster barrels that need a cannon carriage to wheel it to the firing line.
Let me once more emphasize-
Ammo Before Accessories. Shoot Before Modifying
Now go buy ammo and shoot your rifle and forget all this nonsense about getting another upper until experience shows you what will work
One more thing- A good barrel won't shoot to it's potential unless you spend the money to get good ammo
Damn. Someone shoulda told my AR that.
I would like to see your 100 yard targets with five round groups. Didn't see much better than that in the military either.
I would like to see your 100 yard targets with five round groups. Didn't see much better than that in the military either.
PRVI 75-grain
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/guttedhatch/PRVI4-2-10.jpg
PRVI 75-grain
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/guttedhatch/ARtarget2.jpg
52-grain SMK over 25 grains of IMR-4895 (Sorry, only 4 rounds there. I shanked the hell out of the 3rd shot)
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/guttedhatch/ARtarget1.jpg
I see four round groups, where is five? With good ammo on a good day I can do that with my DD barrel too but it won't make five rounds that way. More often than not the fifth round looks like your bottom target.
I see four round groups, where is five? With good ammo on a good day I can do that with my DD barrel too but it won't make five rounds that way. More often than not the fifth round looks like your bottom target.
They are all 5 round targets. The bottom one is the only one with four counted. *I* shanked that - it's not representative of the gun or the load. Just a shooter who had a brain fart. It's still a 1.200 MOA group with my error factored in.
That's a good gun and not typical. I don't claim to be an expert on the latest and greatest boutique M4s that are popular on this website but I did spend a lot of years with an M16 and I am a multi-weapon USAF marksman. I have done a lot of research on the M4 variant and I am pretty confident 1.5 to 2.5 MOA is typical for most of the M4 clone guns produced today. On a good day with good ammunition I have shot sub MOA with my M4 but 1.5 MOA is a lot more typical. I consider it a 1.5 MOA gun. It's sure not a Remington 700.
What I usually like to see is something like 4, 5 shot groups all on the same piece of paper, without any groups thrown out. Just a piece of paper with 4 or 5 bulls and 4 or 5 groups of 5+ rounds.
But everybody has their own stanrdard for calling something an X.X MOA gun. Some people want to see, say, 5 consecutive 10 shot groups without anything being thrown out. Some people are happy with a single 3 shot group. And a lot of people fall in between.
1.5 to 2.5 MOA for a standard M4 type carbine is about right, but MOA or sub-MOA accuracy with a gun specifically built for accuracy is not unheard of nor uncommon. Things like unlined stainless match barrels and .223 Wylde chambers exist for a reason.
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