View Full Version : CMMG LPK and imported parts - Why you probably shouldn't worry...
So I've been doing some research... It seems as though many people down CMMG LPKs for their alleged outsourcing of some parts from LinTon in Taiwan... and while it is true that I would rather have a 100% made in the USA rifle, I would like to share some first-hand info for fellow M4carbiners that I believe needs to be addressed.
I have personally visited the LinTon facility in Taipei and had a chance to tour their factory a few years back. I have also owned a few LinTon knives. The quality of their knives is on par with most "high-end" production US knife manufacturers including Benchmade, Spyderco, and Kershaw. The factory was very clean and modern.
People need to realize that Taiwan is NOT China (all the greatest intellectuals, scientists, etc fled China and communism during WWII and avoided the Cultural Revolution)... Taiwan has much stricter manufacturing laws and is probably the world leader in quality/$ machining and manufacturing.
Ask anyone who collects Spyderco knives where the nicest Spydercos are coming from these days - they won't tell you Golden, Colorado - they'll almost all universally agree that the Taiwanese Spydercos are best - fit, finish, everything.
That being said... I'm not defending CMMG for their use of outsourced parts - I'm just sharing some personal experience and stating some facts and opinions on why you probably shouldn't worry about a CMMG LPK.
Like I mentioned earlier, I've actually toured the LinTon factory and it was probably the most modern CNC/machining facility that I've ever seen. After learning that many of their parts may indeed be produced by LinTon, I felt the need to share...
Flame me if you want... Just sharing info...
EDIT: Just wanted to add, that Taiwan is an ally of the US and their army had been using M16s/ARs for almost as long as we have. Linton was probably a spare parts supplier for their armed forces. Now they're apparently using the T91... which is a pretty interesting weapon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T91_assault_rifle
Those parts may be just fine. CMMG has a history of retardation that goes way back.
And I can guarantee you there'll be a LOT of TRASH hitting the market that is made domestically.
"Made in America" is in no way a per se implication of quality materials and workmanship.
TriviaMonster
02-19-13, 12:27
I always wanted to support CMMG since they were local to me. I have a good friend who has one of their very, very early rifles. Its built very well, has a chrome lined bore and all the standard goodies that can be proven (is proper fsb, gas port, staking, etc) and it is quite the shooter. This rifle was obviously built by someone who gave a damn. Unfortunately as they got bigger, the slop began to outshine anything they were doing right. One day I would love to own a Missouri made AR, but not today. And yes, there customer service went downhill too. The last complete lower I played with from them reminded me of a DPMS. The tolerances were just not there. CMMG may just be buying the sloppy parts from Taiwan.
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I think CMMG used to source a lot of DPMS parts.
Those parts may be just fine. CMMG has a history of retardation that goes way back.
And I can guarantee you there'll be a LOT of TRASH hitting the market that is made domestically.
"Made in America" is in no way a per se implication of quality materials and workmanship.
I always wanted to support CMMG since they were local to me. I have a good friend who has one of their very, very early rifles. Its built very well, has a chrome lined bore and all the standard goodies that can be proven (is proper fsb, gas port, staking, etc) and it is quite the shooter. This rifle was obviously built by someone who gave a damn. Unfortunately as they got bigger, the slop began to outshine anything they were doing right. One day I would love to own a Missouri made AR, but not today. And yes, there customer service went downhill too. The last complete lower I played with from them reminded me of a DPMS. The tolerances were just not there. CMMG may just be buying the sloppy parts from Taiwan.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Well to be honest, I haven't researched too much into the history of the company - I was just addressing the LPKs... It could be their lowers that are out of spec! :D Who knows... I just saw a lot of people bashing their LPKs without any experience with them just because some of the parts may be made by LinTon. Any number of factors (and probably a combination of them) could contribute to the current crappiness of current CMMG rifles/lowers... For all we know, those parts aren't even US spec, but speced for the T91 rifle. They could be fantastic parts, just off by sooooo itsy-bitsy much that it creates a sloppy feeling lower.
I'm just saying, if people found out the parts were outsourced from Switzerland, it would be a non-issue. The fact that I found tons of threads with people Taiwan/LinTon bashing is just kind of racist. I wonder how many of those people have been to Taipei. Up until very recently, Taiwan had the world's tallest building - the Taipei 101. Taipei is like the city in freakin Blade Runner - they have shit we won't see for a few years. Every time I visit I see things that they're ahead of on us by at least ten years. The old "Made in Taiwan Stigma" needs to be eliminated. They're making good shit is all I'm saying - not Chinese sweatshop crap.
CMMG on the other hand, is probably a different story... :D
I think CMMG used to source a lot of DPMS parts.
I've read that a lot too... I wonder where DPMS gets their parts?
They've sources good and bad stuff over the years from what I've read on the forums.
I'd probably steer clear just on CMMG's history. The kit might be fine though.
Well, if the Core15 LPK is indeed CMMG, and crap- I'm about to find out. I've decided to wait on a DD and Colt LPK that I've tracked down for my next two personal builds, but I'm going to use the Core15 LPK for a cheapy PSA carbine build in the next couple of days. I like to do it assembly line style - if I have more than one lower to build, I'll build them at the same time, assembly line style. Seems to work better that way. After my friends played with my first builds, I've put quite a few under my belt now in a short time building ARs for them. All I've used are PSA kits up until recently. I'll let you guys know if I run into any trouble with the Core15 kit.
Crazy as it sounds I like the PSA MOE kit selector switch better than my "S" marked DD ones. It's crisper when it clicks into place. The triggers in the DD and PSA kits have all been equally bad compared to the ALG QMS kits.
I'm planning to hold out until I can get G&R or colt kits before I build or replace anything else other than triggers as I'm completely sold on the value of the QMS.
Besides if you buy separate FCG and selectors there's not much left to the LPK anyway.
Crazy as it sounds I like the PSA MOE kit selector switch better than my "S" marked DD ones. It's crisper when it clicks into place. The triggers in the DD and PSA kits have all been equally bad compared to the ALG QMS kits.
I'm planning to hold out until I can get G&R or colt kits before I build or replace anything else other than triggers as I'm completely sold on the value of the QMS.
Besides if you buy separate FCG and selectors there's not much left to the LPK anyway.
Yeah, I always use Geissele unless its a friend's build, then I use whatever they want - but I've converted most to Geissele now. I just show them my golden G2S and they flip out. Nothing like it. I'm about to find out what a SD-3G is like, but that's another thread. I usually always change the selectors out on my guns too - not ambi though - I have no need since I never actually use them. It seems like an accident waiting to happen, but I guess that's another thread too.
I don't wish to flame you at all, and thank you for the info. I did not know that about Taiwanese manufacturing.
My experience with CMMG last year was not good. I bought a complete lower from from a dealer I know. He couldn't say for sure, but thought the LPK was CMMG too. Here is the thread I made:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=119460
It had some serious issues. Deal breaking issues. Failure to feed and failure to seat mags.
By contrast I own several DD and BCM uppers and LMT and Aeroprecision lowers and not a single one of them have ever had any issue whatsoever.
One question, maybe, is to what spec and/or what mfg state they receive their LPKs in from LinTon. It's possible they get them raw and they do the finishing and case hardening themselves or have them done elsewhere and in turn have a muuuuch lower rejection rate at that point in the process resulting in all the issues. Just speculating.
I also looked at the T91 and it looks to be just another piston operated M16... Infact, AFAICT, it still uses an A1 lower forging But with both 3rd burst and auto.
One question, maybe, is to what spec and/or what mfg state they receive their LPKs in from LinTon. It's possible they get them raw and they do the finishing and case hardening themselves or have them done elsewhere and in turn have a muuuuch lower rejection rate at that point in the process resulting in all the issues. Just speculating.
I also looked at the T91 and it looks to be just another piston operated M16... Infact, AFAICT, it still uses an A1 lower forging But with both 3rd burst and auto.
Supposedly very reliable... the UAE supposedly bought a ton... I guess they want something more accurate than an AK but also able to withstand desert conditions with little maintenance...
Ya. I wasn't insinuating that they weren't any good... Just that it is of the M16 FOW but of the piston variety, and, the upper and lower as further "proof" of the fact, if you will.
TheyCallMeGmoney
02-20-13, 05:18
Well, if the Core15 LPK is indeed CMMG, and crap- I'm about to find out. I've decided to wait on a DD and Colt LPK that I've tracked down for my next two personal builds, but I'm going to use the Core15 LPK for a cheapy PSA carbine build in the next couple of days. I like to do it assembly line style - if I have more than one lower to build, I'll build them at the same time, assembly line style. Seems to work better that way. After my friends played with my first builds, I've put quite a few under my belt now in a short time building ARs for them. All I've used are PSA kits up until recently. I'll let you guys know if I run into any trouble with the Core15 kit.
From what read on other forms core15 lpk's are gtg. Couple guys compaired them to other lpk's even the CMMG they had on hand and said quality looked better. I have 1 coming myself should be here by Thursday, but I won't be able to see it until I get back from my Denver trip on monday
I recently built two lowers. When I couldn't find a second DD lpk I bought a CMMG kit. I wasn't thrilled with having to buy a CMMG lpk after doing some reading but it was one of the few that was available at the time. After putting the two lowers together with the two different kits I have to say that the CMMG kit actually yielded better results. The DD kit had an out of spec bolt catch that required filing because it was rubbing the channel in the lower, the CMMG fcg pins fit more snuggly while the DD pins seemed a bit loose, and the CMMG kit produced a better feeling trigger then the DD lpk. The DD kit parts did seem to have a slightly better finish on them. A very small sample size, but these were my findings. I would probably use either kit again and I would definitely have no reservations about using a CMMG kit again. We will see how it holds up.
Yep... any time you buy an LPK.. it's a roll of the dice.
CMMG is capable of accidentally sourcing good parts. ;)
And you can get a jookie part in a reputable kit too.
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